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2013-01-09 03:04 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: he i delete my forecast app because of that ;)
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2013-01-09 03:09 <kristianpaul> but i was in a motorcycle in the middle of a road 50km away from home..
2013-01-09 03:10 <kristianpaul> on the*
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2013-01-09 04:05 <wpwrak> ah, must be nice to come home, looking like a drowned rat :)
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2013-01-09 04:47 <wpwrak> well, the rain here was just long enough to make me collect all the tools and go inside. after half a hour, things were dry enough to finish. now the lamps are curing (sealed them with silicone - one of them had given me no end of trouble with rainwater crawling in and getting into the apartment's electrical system)
2013-01-09 05:18 <roh> yummi
2013-01-09 05:28 <wpwrak> the rain basically has to fall upward to reach that one. that's why it took me a long time to even suspect it. surprisingly, it often enough managed to do just that
2013-01-09 05:52 <roh> do you have gpf stuff?
2013-01-09 05:52 <roh> 'nen fi'
2013-01-09 05:53 <wpwrak> ah yes, i do. and yes, that's the one that tripped.
2013-01-09 05:54 <wpwrak> i suspected a very different area (well, some 3-4 m away), where we had had a major leak before
2013-01-09 05:55 <roh> heh. lucily we got more than a dozend seperate ones here
2013-01-09 05:55 <roh> even untypical for germany, but they had sunbanks in there originally
2013-01-09 05:56 <roh> very nice for us.. we actually tripped some from time to time
2013-01-09 05:56 <wpwrak> there, the chimney of one of the building's internal air channels had ruptured at the base. plus, the drain of the (flat) roof there it came out was clogged. so once, in a heavy rain, the water rose and rose, until it entered that air channel, and happily made its way from there into pretty much everything else.
2013-01-09 05:56 <roh> eek
2013-01-09 05:58 <wpwrak> one of the more impressive sights was to see the water come out of some walls, then head for the staircase and cascade down on the 13 floors below :) interestingly, on the other side of the wall, there was no visible damage
2013-01-09 06:00 <roh> sometimes i think one really should build his own house.. just to make sure no obviously stupid failipures in planning happen
2013-01-09 06:00 <roh> or atleast one knows who is the perp then ;)
2013-01-09 06:03 <wpwrak> yeah, the latter may be where the danger lurks :) "oh, that's fine. it's dangerous but i'll pay attention."
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2013-01-09 09:27 <kyak> if someone could give me an insight about what's wrong with FSF, it would be interesting for me to know
2013-01-09 09:28 <kyak> i'm not exactly in the loop here, but i always thought that they were kinda the leading force of FOSS movement
2013-01-09 09:29 <kyak> or are you bashing them in the same way i bash openwrt, but deep inside you love it? :)
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2013-01-09 09:56 <lindi-> kyak: for one it's very unclear to me who actually makes decisions there
2013-01-09 09:58 <kyak> does it mean FSF are not open source enough themselves? :)
2013-01-09 09:58 <lindi-> kyak: I think the term here would be transparent
2013-01-09 09:59 <kyak> sure.. from what whitequark said, it was RMS's decision to make GCC non modular. Is he a decision maker?
2013-01-09 10:05 <larsc> was
2013-01-09 10:07 <larsc> Btw. the GnuTLS recently left the GNU project http://lwn.net/Articles/529522/
2013-01-09 10:09 <larsc> and RMS was all "you can't to that since you assigned your copyright to the FSF"
2013-01-09 10:09 <larsc> !!!!
2013-01-09 10:14 <Fallenou> gnu sed maintainer left GNU as well
2013-01-09 10:16 <larsc> yes, he did this in part because of the gnutls dispute
2013-01-09 10:16 <larsc> http://lwn.net/Articles/530460/
2013-01-09 10:16 <whitequark> this reminds me of how Linus has omitted the "[GPL2] or any later version" clause in Linux
2013-01-09 10:16 <whitequark> turns out it was a wise decision
2013-01-09 10:17 <Fallenou> for sure
2013-01-09 10:18 <kyak> hm, interesting
2013-01-09 10:22 <kyak> then there is noone behind the open source community, i think it's bad
2013-01-09 10:23 <lindi-> kyak: huh?
2013-01-09 10:23 <whitequark> there is no such thing as an "open source community"
2013-01-09 10:23 <whitequark> or rather "the open source community"
2013-01-09 10:37 <kyak> yeah, that's what i wanted to say
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2013-01-09 10:58 <whitequark> kyak: huh? I don't get why is this bad. or how this could be different, in fact.
2013-01-09 10:58 <whitequark> "open source community" as a term is something like "humanity". not referring to a single entity under circumstances I could imagine.
2013-01-09 10:59 <wpwrak> kyak: we all are. that's strength.
2013-01-09 10:59 <wpwrak> whitequark: the other model would be: one community, one fuehrer, ... ;-)
2013-01-09 10:59 <whitequark> wpwrak: exactly
2013-01-09 10:59 <whitequark> BDFLs work for *parts* of OSS communities. preferably very small parts.
2013-01-09 10:59 <wpwrak> well, it sort of worked for apple ;-)
2013-01-09 11:00 <whitequark> wpwrak: not long-term
2013-01-09 11:10 <kyak> wpwrak: how is that a strength? What can we do? Go sign an online petition?
2013-01-09 11:11 <kyak> the community is sparse and uncontrolled, that's efeectively means it doesn't exist
2013-01-09 11:11 <kyak> there is noone behind our backs
2013-01-09 11:13 <kyak> that is, if FSF is what you described (non-transparent and loosing members)
2013-01-09 11:14 <lindi-> kyak: uncontrolled? you mean unorganized?
2013-01-09 11:15 <lindi-> kyak: what's your native language btw?
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2013-01-09 11:15 <lindi-> kyak: but there is FSFE too
2013-01-09 11:15 <kyak> lindi-: (unorganized) sorry for that. It's Russian.
2013-01-09 11:16 <kyak> never heard of FSFE
2013-01-09 11:16 <wpwrak> kyak: i see that you don't believe in self-organizaion. good that we didn't have to rely on evolution to get us out of the primordial dirt. that would never have worked ;-)
2013-01-09 11:17 <kyak> wpwrak: i see that you rely on self-organization, let's mee where it brings in a nearest future :)
2013-01-09 11:17 <kyak> hm, 'm' is not even close to 's' on keyboard
2013-01-09 11:17 <lindi-> kyak: fsfe.org -- I'm a member of the Finnish team there
2013-01-09 11:18 <kyak> lindi-: what do you do there as a member?
2013-01-09 11:18 <lindi-> kyak: biggest project last year was http://fsfe.org/news/2012/news-20120619-01.en.html
2013-01-09 11:18 <kyak> i see the same "secure boot" story on main page
2013-01-09 11:19 <lindi-> kyak: this year we were planning free your android workshops
2013-01-09 11:19 <wpwrak> whitequark: (GPL v2+) don't see the connection. the risk is basically that GPL n (n > current) might allow things you'd rather want forbidden. GPL < n already gives you a perpetual license to use the sw under the present term, so it's not possible to take anything away.
2013-01-09 11:20 <kyak> lindi-: (procurrement violations) interesting, but is it really open-source related?
2013-01-09 11:20 <lindi-> kyak: definitely
2013-01-09 11:20 <kyak> means you are proposing open source (and free) replacementS?
2013-01-09 11:20 <lindi-> kyak: if the public organizations only buy "Oracle" or "Microsoft" products then it is hard to compete
2013-01-09 11:21 <lindi-> kyak: no, we are making sure that FLOSS solutions can compete on equal grounds
2013-01-09 11:21 <wpwrak> kyak: it's lobbying the surroundings of free software
2013-01-09 11:23 <kyak> i see.. but it's really hard. If they want Oracle, they will find reasons why
2013-01-09 11:23 <lindi-> kyak: but the Finnish law will not allow them to do that
2013-01-09 11:23 <kyak> their admins are good at Oracle
2013-01-09 11:24 <lindi-> kyak: it's complicated but if they are dependent on Oracle then they need to publish a document where they explain why they are stuck to this one vendor
2013-01-09 11:24 <lindi-> kyak: as I understand it the law is pretty clear on this for public organizations
2013-01-09 11:25 <wpwrak> kyak: it's not necessarily about forcing them not to make bad choices, but about encouraging them to make good ones. not all public servants are moles of big capital and organized crime ;-)
2013-01-09 11:26 <kyak> wpwrak: i don't believe that after you said them that mysql is a better choice, they would say "really? thanks, we never heard of that"
2013-01-09 11:27 <kyak> and then would thank you for helping them make a better choice
2013-01-09 11:27 <lindi-> kyak: but you need to understand that procurement does not quite work like that
2013-01-09 11:27 <lindi-> kyak: they publish the specifications and they pretty much need to take the cheapest offer
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2013-01-09 11:27 <kyak> yeah, that's right
2013-01-09 11:28 <kyak> so who will offer on behalf of some open source project?
2013-01-09 11:28 <kyak> they don't even have an accounting :)
2013-01-09 11:29 <lindi-> kyak: there are many companies that sell solutions based on open source components
2013-01-09 11:29 <wpwrak> kyak: there are lots of companies that sell open source. ever heard of, say, red hat ? :)
2013-01-09 11:29 <wpwrak> lindi-: heh, nearly identical :)
2013-01-09 11:29 <kyak> red hat is another monopolist
2013-01-09 11:29 <wpwrak> yawn :)
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2013-01-09 11:29 <larsc> here in munich the public administration switched to a Linux based infrastructure some time ago, not only servers but also desktops
2013-01-09 11:30 <lindi-> at least our university bought midgard CMS and dovecot from private companies
2013-01-09 11:30 <larsc> they claim that they saved money, but their calculations are a bit fisht
2013-01-09 11:30 <larsc> fishy
2013-01-09 11:31 <lindi-> larsc: http://fsfe.org/fi/projects/libreoffice/Web%20version%20with%20notes%20-%20Dirty%20tactics%20against%20LibreOffice%20in%20public%20administration,%20and%20how%20to%20overcome%20them.pdf
2013-01-09 11:31 <lindi-> larsc: we haven't been able to access the calculations yet
2013-01-09 11:31 <kyak> cool.. some companies work their ass off making software, and others just package open source software with minimal resources
2013-01-09 11:31 <lindi-> larsc: I have a Gardner account but it does not have enough privileges to see that Gardner publication
2013-01-09 11:31 <kyak> i say, that the second company is a leech
2013-01-09 11:31 <lindi-> Gartner even
2013-01-09 11:32 <lindi-> kyak: what second company?
2013-01-09 11:32 <lindi-> kyak: dovecot?
2013-01-09 11:33 <kyak> lindi-: the one that just packages open source software and sells it. As opposed to the company that actually spends money to develop software (and it doesn't matter at this point if it open or closed source)
2013-01-09 11:34 <lindi-> kyak: well the dovecot company developed dovecot
2013-01-09 11:34 <lindi-> kyak: http://www.dovecot.fi/
2013-01-09 11:34 <lindi-> " Our game is email storage. We are pretty good at it."
2013-01-09 11:36 <kyak> there are many open source projects with no companies behind them
2013-01-09 11:36 <lindi-> kyak: so? anyone can start a company to sell solutions based on those
2013-01-09 11:36 <kyak> or even, there are few open source projects with companies behind them
2013-01-09 11:36 <kyak> lindi-: that anyone would be a leech
2013-01-09 11:36 <lindi-> kyak: why?
2013-01-09 11:37 <kyak> because they are not investing their money
2013-01-09 11:37 <lindi-> kyak: why would they not invest money?
2013-01-09 11:37 <kyak> or, as much money as company that actually develops software
2013-01-09 11:37 <lindi-> if their entire business depends on that piece of software they would be very unwise to not invest money
2013-01-09 11:37 <kyak> because i can package shit for free
2013-01-09 11:37 <lindi-> kyak: I think you need to name some specific company, it is difficult to speculate
2013-01-09 11:38 <larsc> redhat ;)
2013-01-09 11:38 <kyak> redhat probably develops something...
2013-01-09 11:38 <larsc> packages all the stuff and then sells expensive support contracts for it
2013-01-09 11:38 <lindi-> redhat paid a lot of people to work for free java and now they are paying people to develop systemtap
2013-01-09 11:38 <larsc> I was joking
2013-01-09 11:38 <lindi-> :P
2013-01-09 11:39 <kyak> lindi-: i can't name anything specific.. maybe, who is behind postgresql?
2013-01-09 11:39 <kyak> or another example, octave
2013-01-09 11:39 <lindi-> kyak: redhat and some postgresql experts inc.
2013-01-09 11:39 <kyak> how it can enter a procurement contest?
2013-01-09 11:40 <lindi-> kyak: you just form a company and fill out some forms
2013-01-09 11:40 <lindi-> kyak: and hire a lawyer
2013-01-09 11:40 <kyak> exactly.. so easy
2013-01-09 11:40 <kyak> that's why it's leeching
2013-01-09 11:40 <lindi-> kyak: I don't understand you
2013-01-09 11:40 <roh> hm. fsck. its january and my accounting sw hates me.
2013-01-09 11:41 <kyak> getting money for doing nothing.. using other people's labour
2013-01-09 11:41 <whitequark> lindi-: btw, redhat develops a proper free AA64 JIT for OpenJDK right now
2013-01-09 11:41 <lindi-> kyak: doing nothing?
2013-01-09 11:41 <whitequark> (oracle has proprietary AA32 and AA64 JITs)
2013-01-09 11:41 <larsc> kyak: if anybody can do this you'd expect very hard competition which drives the price down
2013-01-09 11:41 <lindi-> kyak: surely if you offer a solution based on postgresql you are going to have to handle a lot of support and integration issues
2013-01-09 11:41 <larsc> down to the point were you not pay for the software, but rather for the service
2013-01-09 11:42 <lindi-> kyak: I don't think anybody has managed to do that with octave. sage might have a chance
2013-01-09 11:42 <lindi-> our university pays to non-free things like matlab, mathematica, simulink
2013-01-09 11:42 <kyak> larsc: nobody does that because open source solutions usually are not quite comptetive. Also, usually the contest mentions that support is required. So it suddenly becomes not so attractive to package and sell open source software
2013-01-09 11:42 <lindi-> I'd certainly welcome free alternatives
2013-01-09 11:43 <lindi-> kyak: well the procurement notice could have almost any terms but usually it has some sort of a 5-year support contract
2013-01-09 11:44 <kyak> lindi-: there is another thing. If there is always a company behind any competitor in a contest (even open source), why are you doing their jobs?
2013-01-09 11:45 <kyak> it's their job to persuade customers, do marketing etc
2013-01-09 11:45 <kyak> or, i forgot.. they don't want to spend money?
2013-01-09 11:45 <lindi-> kyak: well we are much more neutral body since we are not tied to some specific company
2013-01-09 11:45 <kyak> you are tied to open source companies, aren't you?
2013-01-09 11:46 <lindi-> kyak: yes but not some specific company
2013-01-09 11:47 <kyak> lindi-: say, if there is a cheaper close-source solution and a more expensive open-source solution, and am open-source solution wa chosen. Will you fight for the rights of closed-source company?
2013-01-09 11:47 <lindi-> but now time for dinner
2013-01-09 11:48 <kyak> bon appetit!
2013-01-09 11:48 <kyak> btw, such occasions are very much possible with redhat, i suppose
2013-01-09 11:53 <kyak> i think there are groups here in Russia doing the same. Mostly individuals, who keep track of official procurement site and make noise if they find something. But this is not really related to open source, since it can happen to everyone. That's why i asked initialy why it was open source related
2013-01-09 13:06 <wpwrak> kyak: you need to decide whether it's money for nothing or prohibitively hard work. right now you're saying it's both ;-)
2013-01-09 13:18 <kyak> wpwrak: if you package and sell it, it's money for nothing. But not anybody can do this, because it takes responsibility to support other people's code after you sold it. But it still costs less than adding the development costs to this
2013-01-09 13:19 <kyak> that's why i said it's not so attractive
2013-01-09 13:23 <kyak> ..as it seems.
2013-01-09 13:24 <kyak> but i don't have to be a PhD in math to be able to calculate that developing+packaging+selling+supporting is bigger than packaging+selling+supporting
2013-01-09 13:24 <lindi-> kyak: I still fail to understand your point here :/
2013-01-09 13:29 <kyak> my point is that everything needs to be protected during procurement. Not just open source
2013-01-09 13:29 <kyak> in fact, open source has nothing do with it at all.
2013-01-09 13:32 <kyak> have to go now
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2013-01-09 13:54 <wpwrak> kyak: the closed source companies can easily benefit from this as well - by opening their stuff ;-)
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2013-01-09 13:57 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: for your next xmas: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Star-Wars-aus-Deutschland-Hochenergielaser-von-Rheinmetall-1779913.html
2013-01-09 14:08 <lindi-> kyak: yeah, we are just ensuring that the law is followed
2013-01-09 14:08 <lindi-> kyak: because at the moment it is violated in some cases and FLOSS solutions can not attend
2013-01-09 14:09 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: nice :-D
2013-01-09 14:11 <roh> classic 'rule by superior firepower' madness...
2013-01-09 14:11 <roh> well.. somehow it was time to find some ... anti-drone weapon ;)
2013-01-09 14:12 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCBwLJjzDJQ
2013-01-09 14:12 <wpwrak> roh: see, it works :)
2013-01-09 14:13 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: nasty H^3F fumes though ;-P
2013-01-09 14:14 <wpwrak> "IDF surplus store" ;-)
2013-01-09 14:15 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah X-P
2013-01-09 14:15 <DocScrutinizer05> watch the exhaust fumes visible in infrared view of whole truck
2013-01-09 14:16 <DocScrutinizer05> tritiumflouride :-o
2013-01-09 14:16 <wpwrak> yeah :)
2013-01-09 14:16 <DocScrutinizer05> 4:28
2013-01-09 14:17 <wpwrak> "ready to take the next step" ... MIRVs ?
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2013-01-09 14:19 <DocScrutinizer05> my neighbours don't like what the exhaust fumes do to their trees
2013-01-09 14:19 <DocScrutinizer05> and the tritium is a bit expensive
2013-01-09 14:21 <wpwrak> well, it should be easy enough to take out that critter - just fire a projectile without explosive aboard. all the laser will accomplish is make it come in a little hotter.
2013-01-09 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> yup
2013-01-09 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder which power this thing has, probably in the MW range
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2013-01-09 16:40 <whitequark> >https://twitter.com/rkkski/status/288956938778189824/photo/1/large
2013-01-09 16:40 <whitequark> installation disk
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2013-01-09 16:47 <wpwrak> whitequark: what kind of device is that ?
2013-01-09 16:48 <wpwrak> or is it a fake ? i don't get it
2013-01-09 16:49 <whitequark> wpwrak: Windows 8 phone
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2013-01-09 16:49 <wpwrak> oh, lovely :)
2013-01-09 16:49 <larsc> well I guess you can attach a usb diskdrive
2013-01-09 16:50 <kyak> or usb floppy drive
2013-01-09 16:50 <kristianpaul> haha looks fake
2013-01-09 16:51 <kristianpaul> i mean come on..
2013-01-09 16:51 <kristianpaul> hehe
2013-01-09 16:53 <wpwrak> the connector at the top and the exposed screws don't look very real
2013-01-09 16:53 <wpwrak> and if it's a prototype, well, i've seen worse mishaps :)
2013-01-09 17:12 <viric> damn spaniards; the royal academy of the language is changing the definitions of "nation" and "referendum", ahead of the coming referendum for the independence of Catalonia.
2013-01-09 17:13 <viric> (damn *ruling* spaniards)
2013-01-09 17:13 <wpwrak> hacking the language ? that's sneaky ;-)
2013-01-09 17:13 <viric> they did that already...
2013-01-09 17:14 <viric> about 'nation', when Catalonia aproved a new constitution
2013-01-09 17:14 <viric> where it was a key word.
2013-01-09 17:14 <viric> on 2010.
2013-01-09 17:14 <wpwrak> "estar en favor": to be undecided, reluctant.
2013-01-09 17:15 <viric> ;)
2013-01-09 17:15 <viric> It's easier to change the meaning of words than the law texts.
2013-01-09 17:16 * kristianpaul tought was "estar a favor"
2013-01-09 17:16 <viric> similar
2013-01-09 17:17 <viric> does the royal academy of the spanish language still have a role in the spanish america?
2013-01-09 17:18 <kristianpaul> ehh there are many spanish derivatives
2013-01-09 17:19 <wpwrak> viric: of course. and even more so when trolling ;-)
2013-01-09 17:20 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: this says we're both right: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2523664
2013-01-09 17:21 <viric> backed by forum posts.
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2013-01-09 17:26 <kristianpaul> oh spanish ;)
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2013-01-09 17:31 <whitequark> viric: are you serious?
2013-01-09 17:32 <whitequark> this is totallyinsane
2013-01-09 17:34 <viric> http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ca&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ca&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vilaweb.cat%2Fnoticia%2F4072426%2F20130109%2Frae-anticipar-tc-canviant-significat-nacionalitat.html
2013-01-09 17:34 <viric> and the link below on related information
2013-01-09 17:42 <whitequark> ugh.
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2013-01-09 19:27 <viric> russians always talk about insanity
2013-01-09 19:28 <viric> :)
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2013-01-09 22:24 <whitequark> viric: maybe. what's about it?
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