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2013-01-04 02:13 <DocScrutinizer05> and I still think OE was the birth defect in OM
2013-01-04 02:14 <DocScrutinizer05> afaik SHR has no proper non-root user accounts (or even any accounts) til this very day
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2013-01-04 02:15 <DocScrutinizer05> I still like to think of OE as "linux for fridges"
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2013-01-04 02:18 <DocScrutinizer05> while you could define a usual phone as an embedded device (= only custom UI with limited clearly defined functionality), a smartphone already boldly fails on that definition. Even more a pocket computer with attached modem, like Freerunner
2013-01-04 02:21 <wpwrak> well, i don't exactly like OE. but with jlime, we had a pretty much hassle-free variant of OE for the ben. not only by technical merits but by having the proper division between development and distribution we never had at openmoko.
2013-01-04 02:22 <wpwrak> also with openwrt, we have that. only that openwrt is a weaker basis, so the work of the distribution maintainers is harder.
2013-01-04 02:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm more a fan of the downsizing approach, rather than nuking everything to a bare fridge controller level and then re-adding ~90% of mainline stuff again
2013-01-04 02:25 <wpwrak> at OM, for most of the time, you basically had nobody who would take care of OE for you. so each developer somehow had to get involved.
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2013-01-04 02:25 <wpwrak> well, that burn-to-the-ground-then-rebuild is kinda what we're doing with owrt ;-)
2013-01-04 02:25 <wpwrak> OE is a lot better i this regard
2013-01-04 02:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd probably not need anybody to take care of debian for me
2013-01-04 02:25 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: are you sure ? :)
2013-01-04 02:26 <wpwrak> how often do you compile debian packages from source ?
2013-01-04 02:26 <wpwrak> when i do, it's from sources that are themselves upstream to debian
2013-01-04 02:26 <DocScrutinizer05> actually not that often, but I did a few years ago, for maemo
2013-01-04 02:28 <wpwrak> all i want from debian/ubunto are packages. and my work is not debian-specific but gets packaged by someone (in our case often xiangfu) into debian. that someone knows the rules/rituals, chain of command, etc., of debian. so "debianizing" code is more or less transparent to me.
2013-01-04 02:29 <DocScrutinizer05> sure. What more do I need?
2013-01-04 02:29 <wpwrak> same for fedora and whatever. they do their work, i do mine. i keep my makefiles clean, so they won't have too much of a headache, and i never even hear from them. and that's just as it should be :)
2013-01-04 02:30 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: precisely. get the process right and things all of a sudden get very simple
2013-01-04 02:30 <DocScrutinizer05> well, porting pkgs from debian/other-mainline to an "embedded" system is a oneway thing in my book anyway
2013-01-04 02:31 <DocScrutinizer05> I for sure wouldn't bother to upstream maemo-specific patches
2013-01-04 02:32 <DocScrutinizer05> after all that's why maemo exists, and it's not just an OMAP build of devian
2013-01-04 02:32 <DocScrutinizer05> debian even
2013-01-04 02:33 <DocScrutinizer05> I've seen epic fail of mer etc, which tried to stay on main too much
2013-01-04 02:34 <wpwrak> i think upstreaming is good. but you don't need to be in a great hurry to do it.
2013-01-04 02:34 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh sensor-fw not IRQ event driven, rather polling? Don't worry we'll deal with powersaving later, for now we need something that *works* X-P
2013-01-04 02:35 <wpwrak> such is life :)
2013-01-04 02:35 <wpwrak> everybody knows battery life sucks anyway ;-)
2013-01-04 02:35 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly, and that will never change for mer
2013-01-04 02:36 <DocScrutinizer05> since for them, if it's not upstream, it doesn't exist
2013-01-04 02:37 <DocScrutinizer05> and, like it or not, main is not exactly built for "embedded", they every now and then took design decisions that are fine for servers or even laptops
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2013-01-04 02:38 <wpwrak> yes, that's the main challenge for making an embedded version of a major distro
2013-01-04 02:38 <wpwrak> tjat
2013-01-04 02:38 <wpwrak> grr
2013-01-04 02:38 <wpwrak> that's also why i didn't consider debian embeddable for a long time. it seems they now worked / are working on that. but i don't know the status
2013-01-04 02:39 <wpwrak> it's basically a question of having more flexible dependencies, and the config options that allow such flexibility
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2013-01-04 02:41 <wpwrak> e.g., bad: installing a package for "/bin/true" pulls in the gnome desktop because the package also contains /bin/ls and someone added a --beep option for whatever, which in turn needs some audio subsystem and the gnome desktop has the volume control utility.
2013-01-04 02:41 <wpwrak> good: /bin/true will come alone. and if some genius invented a --beep option for it too, then you'll be able to install without it
2013-01-04 02:44 <DocScrutinizer05> ack
2013-01-04 02:44 <DocScrutinizer05> on maemo we got friggin PITA called metapackages
2013-01-04 02:44 <DocScrutinizer05> actually ONe metapackage
2013-01-04 02:44 <DocScrutinizer05> that contains virtually all
2013-01-04 02:44 <wpwrak> nice ;-)
2013-01-04 02:45 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed >:-(
2013-01-04 02:45 <wpwrak> apt-get install maemo # nice and simple :)
2013-01-04 02:46 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly
2013-01-04 02:46 <wpwrak> well, it's not a bad idea if a lot of people actually want the "standard system". depends on whether such a standard system really exists
2013-01-04 02:47 <DocScrutinizer05> even apt-get install mp-fremantle-community-pr
2013-01-04 02:47 <DocScrutinizer05> *blush*
2013-01-04 02:47 <wpwrak> whatever that is :)
2013-01-04 02:47 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm fighting since 2 years against it
2013-01-04 02:48 <DocScrutinizer05> it's the continuation of the original metapackage from nokia, by community (incl me)
2013-01-04 02:48 <DocScrutinizer05>  http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
2013-01-04 03:01 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: the torture starts when you want to get rid of, or replace, one of the "standard" components - like camera
2013-01-04 03:03 <DocScrutinizer05> apt-get will suggest to remove the mp and roundabout 400 other pkgs ;-P
2013-01-04 03:04 <DocScrutinizer05> same happens when you get pissed by messybox and simply want to install procps
2013-01-04 03:04 <DocScrutinizer05> to finally get an idea of what your processes do and look like
2013-01-04 03:06 <DocScrutinizer05> procps conflicts with busybox, busybox tears down the fremantle-mp, the mp uninstalls ~80% of your system
2013-01-04 03:06 <wpwrak> interesting .. urjtag has a configure that ignores cross-compilation. how sweet is that ?
2013-01-04 03:06 <DocScrutinizer05> well, the latter not instantly, actually I failed to understand when *that* happens
2013-01-04 03:08 <wpwrak> sounds as if someone has implemented some creative new thoughts about the metaphysical reality of dependencies ;-)
2013-01-04 03:08 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, the one been Nokia
2013-01-04 03:08 <DocScrutinizer05> and my maintainer freaks explain to me we can't get rid of this abomination
2013-01-04 03:10 <wpwrak> lab diary notice: the lobotomy was successful beyond our wildest expectations
2013-01-04 03:10 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.org/packages/view/mp-fremantle-community-pr/
2013-01-04 03:12 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/mp-fremantle-community-pr/20.2010.36-2maemo16/
2013-01-04 03:12 <DocScrutinizer05> "Depends:" :-o
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2013-01-04 03:15 <wpwrak> there ain't no "depends" on that page
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2013-01-04 03:31 <wpwrak> (ujtag) naw, my mistake - it seems to support cross-compilation just fine. now, dumbing it down for ben compatibility ...
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2013-01-04 05:48 <wpwrak> xiangfu: hmm, is there a quick way to build just the kernel in openwrt ? kinda like "make kernel_menuconfig"
2013-01-04 05:49 <wpwrak> (i already tried "make kernel" but there's no such target. would have been too easy :)
2013-01-04 05:56 * wpwrak praises XTerm.*.colorMode: false
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2013-01-04 06:01 <xiangfu> wpwrak: make target/linux/{clean,compile} V=s
2013-01-04 06:02 <xiangfu> wpwrak: make target/linux/{clean,compile} V=s
2013-01-04 06:02 <xiangfu> wpwrak: make target/linux/{clean,compile} V=s
2013-01-04 06:03 <xiangfu> it will delete the linux folder. compile it again.
2013-01-04 06:03 <xiangfu> or just make target/linux/compile V=s
2013-01-04 06:03 <xiangfu> (network problem...)
2013-01-04 06:03 <wpwrak> kewl. thanks a lot !
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2013-01-04 06:23 <hellekin> sometimes, I just feel stupid not knowing stuff like that: http://bookos.org/Computers-%26-Internet-Hardware-cat84
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2013-01-04 06:29 <wpwrak> hellekin: what's special about a page full of errors ?
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2013-01-04 06:39 <xiangfu> wpwrak: have you receive my message?
2013-01-04 06:39 <xiangfu> make target/linux/{clean,compile} V=s or make target/linux/compile V=s
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2013-01-04 06:47 <wpwrak> yes, thanks !
2013-01-04 06:48 <wpwrak> seems that it doesn't quite work, though. first, i had to build "install" to get it to actually compile, and then then it failed because it had not made uImage
2013-01-04 06:48 <wpwrak> now running that regular build ...
2013-01-04 06:51 <wpwrak> now .. let's see if it still boots
2013-01-04 06:51 <wpwrak> yay. victory !
2013-01-04 06:52 <wpwrak> now, why didn't it accept my config change ...
2013-01-04 06:52 <wpwrak> ah no, it did. good :)
2013-01-04 06:52 <kyak> wpwrak: yeah, make target/linux/install V=s will actually build the uImage
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2013-01-04 07:25 <wpwrak> kewl. configure silently defaults to the build host architecture in case the specified cross-toolchain isn't around. autocrap indeed.
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2013-01-04 07:42 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: w3m: fix build (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a6504b8
2013-01-04 08:33 <hellekin> wpwrak: oh, crap. It's a repository of 1.5 million books for download. That one was supposed to link to the Hardware category
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2013-01-04 08:42 <wpwrak> the amazon of bookwarez ? ;-)
2013-01-04 08:46 <sagex> thats funny. I've been trying to get ethernet over usb0  and I am able to ssh into the device but I cannot ping google
2013-01-04 08:47 <wpwrak> sagex: perhaps your PC isn't forwarding and NAT'ing ?
2013-01-04 08:48 <sagex> wpwrak,  ok I'd like to know how to forward and nat'ing
2013-01-04 08:51 <wpwrak> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nanonote+forward+nat
2013-01-04 08:52 * wpwrak loves those lmgtfy moments (-:C
2013-01-04 08:52 <sagex> hehe
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2013-01-04 09:05 <wpwrak> yeah. ubb-jtag works ;-)
2013-01-04 09:05 <wpwrak> just identified one of my milkymists
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2013-01-04 09:09 <wpwrak> whoopsie ! pld load "fjmem.bit"  ... then it (urjtag) happily identifes the 6slx45fgg484 followed by getting OOM-killed
2013-01-04 09:11 <wpwrak> let's see what strace has to say about that ...
2013-01-04 09:13 <wpwrak> hmm. tries to allocate 11 MB. weird
2013-01-04 09:26 <wpwrak> bah. no ltrace on openwrt. that's cheap.
2013-01-04 09:30 <wpwrak> urjtag certainly likes its malloc ...
2013-01-04 09:31 <wpwrak> now, if we had a 2nd 8:10 card slot, i could add swap. grrr ...
2013-01-04 09:36 <viric> you can use slip + nbd ;)
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2013-01-04 09:41 <wpwrak> aha ! it tries to allocate a "data register" for the eight times the size of the bitstream. 1484404*8 = 11875232. that explains something.
2013-01-04 09:41 <viric> one-bit-per-byte storage?
2013-01-04 09:42 <wpwrak> yeah, apparently
2013-01-04 09:42 <wpwrak> dr_data[8*u+0] = (bs->data[u] & 0x80) ? 1 : 0;   and so on
2013-01-04 09:43 <viric> oh, even without redundancy. it should be ? 0xff:0
2013-01-04 09:47 <wpwrak> at least it doesn't malloc little buffers for "0", "1", ...
2013-01-04 09:47 <viric> hehe
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2013-01-04 11:06 <kyak> wpwrak: and so i came upon timer_create()...
2013-01-04 11:06 <kyak> this is getting ridiculous
2013-01-04 11:10 <kyak> setitimer is good, but it doesn't allow me to keep track of overruns
2013-01-04 11:12 <kyak> if my function (called from the timer handler) didn't return before the next timer period has elapsed, the next timer signal would just get lost
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2013-01-04 11:16 <larsc> I wouldn't recommend setitimer anyway, it's kind of legecy stuff
2013-01-04 11:18 <kyak> hm, ok!
2013-01-04 11:19 <kyak> from the other hand, timer_create() requires -lrt -lpthread -ldl :)
2013-01-04 11:19 <kyak> not that it really matters, but still..
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2013-01-04 11:23 <kyak> heh.. timer_create is described in both man 2 and man 3p
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2013-01-04 11:53 <kyak> yeah, i'm sticking to timer_create() and timer_getoverrun(). It works just as i needed
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2013-01-04 12:04 <whitequark> wpwrak: Paul Wilson has some wise things to say about GC's: ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/gcsurvey.ps, section 1.1
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2013-01-04 13:23 <wpwrak> kyak: happy ending ? :-)
2013-01-04 13:25 <kyak> wpwrak: i hope so. If anyone knows a better way, please don't tell me, i don't want to rewrite the same algorithm in yet another way :)
2013-01-04 13:28 <wpwrak> kyak: look at the bright side - you're now done comprehensive research on the topic and can post a comparison :)
2013-01-04 13:30 <wpwrak> hmm, didn't someone once implement in-memory page compression ? that might solve my urjtag problem ...
2013-01-04 13:30 <wpwrak> (the things we do - or think of doing - to accommodate bothersome user space ...)
2013-01-04 13:34 <larsc> wpwrak: zram
2013-01-04 13:35 <wpwrak> whitequark: i'm so glad my code doesn't have to worry about GC ;-) take all the headache of explicit memory management, move it somewhere else, then square it :)
2013-01-04 13:36 <xiangfu> wpwrak: or you can try another jtag program: https://github.com/Wolfgang-Spraul/fpgatools/tree/master/mini-jtag :)
2013-01-04 13:38 <xiangfu> the urjtag try to put the bit in byte size, then revert to byte again when write to device.(like pld load)
2013-01-04 13:40 <whitequark> wpwrak: you clearly never wrote much GC-managed code ;)
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2013-01-04 13:40 <wpwrak> whitequark: i stopped after seeing it collect its garbage ;-)
2013-01-04 13:41 <xiangfu> :)
2013-01-04 13:41 <wpwrak> xiangfu: (urjtag) yeah. i'm impressed by their efficiency ;-)
2013-01-04 13:43 <larsc> doesn't the kernel do gc for you? once the process exits the memory is free again ;)
2013-01-04 13:46 <wpwrak> xiangfu: hmm, some of the code in mini-jtag looks very familiar :) nice and compact, though. pity it's very FTDI-specific
2013-01-04 13:48 <wpwrak> larsc: the kernel is expected to do magic. that's why it's written by wizards with long white beards :)
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2013-01-04 13:52 <wpwrak> kyak: thanks ! that was what i was looking for. pity they have a static division. let's see how good it is ...
2013-01-04 13:53 <kyak> wpwrak: what is static division?
2013-01-04 13:54 <wpwrak> kyak: that you have to allocate the amount of memory that goes into that swap
2013-01-04 13:54 <wpwrak> or .. actually, that may just be their nominal size
2013-01-04 13:54 <kyak> hm, i'm confused :)
2013-01-04 13:55 <wpwrak> chaos and confusion, my work here is done. bwahaha :)
2013-01-04 14:00 <larsc> kyak: he's talking about zram
2013-01-04 14:06 <kyak> larsc: let me forward his thanks to you then :)
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2013-01-04 14:12 <wpwrak> xiangfu: how big is wolfgang's blinking leds bitstream for the lx9 ?
2013-01-04 14:13 <xiangfu> wpwrak: 340704
2013-01-04 14:14 <wpwrak> great. 1/4.3 the size of fjmem.bit
2013-01-04 14:14 <xiangfu> the .bit file is fix size for each chip.
2013-01-04 14:16 <wpwrak> bah, not even RLE ? that's cheap
2013-01-04 14:16 <wpwrak> i.e., there are a lot of very compressible zeroes in there
2013-01-04 14:17 <wpwrak> zmem must be a bit disgusted. first, the 1-to-8 spreading by urtag, and then the actual data is mostly zeroes, too.
2013-01-04 14:18 <wpwrak> in any case, fjmem just informed me that it found "32 MiB" of flash :)
2013-01-04 14:26 <wpwrak> 262 seconds for fjmem.bit. so an lx9 bitstream would take about one minute. probably less, given that it should fit into the ben without compression (zram)
2013-01-04 14:29 <wpwrak> frequency 6000000 -> new real frequency 46570.9, delay 0   operating without delay   :)
2013-01-04 14:33 <wpwrak> now .. let's take pictures ...
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2013-01-04 18:11 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: README: there's much more than the blinkenlights here (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/d33da70
2013-01-04 18:11 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubbctl/: UBB pin status decoder (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/f0c6e87
2013-01-04 18:11 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-jtag/: instructions for building a JTAG interface with UBB (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/1024f48
2013-01-04 18:11 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-jtag/ubb-jtag-m1.sch: schematics for UBB-VGA-M1 cable (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/d16af2a
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2013-01-04 18:24 <wpwrak> xiangfu: would you happen to have a smaller bitstream (e.g., from your lx9 experiements) somewhere ?
2013-01-04 18:25 <wpwrak> wolfspra1l: or you ?
2013-01-04 18:26 <wpwrak> (i'm trying to see how much zram slows down things, and maybe urjtag will let me load a smaller bitstream)
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2013-01-04 18:42 <kristianpaul> i wonder if a bitstream could get smaller, anyway you need initialice to a safe state even the un-used CLBs
2013-01-04 18:46 <wpwrak> well, i don't plan to actually run it for very long :)
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2013-01-04 18:57 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-jtag/README: ideas for increasing the speed (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/b6a9e23
2013-01-04 18:57 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-jtag/ubb-jtag-m1.sch: connect VREF to 2.5 V; explain that R3 is untested (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/a58e789
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