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2012-12-24 05:34 <kyak> test1
2012-12-24 05:34 <kyak> test2
2012-12-24 05:34 <kyak> no live updates for me -\
2012-12-24 05:35 <kyak> btw. what's the point of live updates for previous dates?
2012-12-24 05:36 <kyak> yeah, it updates.. takes around a minutes
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2012-12-24 12:53 <whitequark> kyak: yeah, irc can be quite slow sometimes
2012-12-24 12:54 <whitequark> (for the previous dates) oh, that's an UI bug :)
2012-12-24 13:11 <whitequark> kyak: actually no, irc has nothing to do with it
2012-12-24 13:11 <whitequark> for some reason the stream is not flushed when it should. tcp buffers? I've no idea
2012-12-24 13:18 <wpwrak> whitequark: could it be good old friend nagle ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagle's_algorithm
2012-12-24 13:21 <whitequark> wpwrak: I think it's nginx
2012-12-24 13:21 <whitequark> .
2012-12-24 13:23 <whitequark> errrr
2012-12-24 13:23 <whitequark> *facepalm* no, it's me being completely stupid
2012-12-24 13:23 <whitequark> I've installed a version of Redis, which I use for publish/subscribe communication, without a pub/sub system
2012-12-24 13:23 <whitequark> too old
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2012-12-24 13:23 <whitequark> but then I wonder how it ever worked at all
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2012-12-24 13:25 <whitequark> test
2012-12-24 13:25 <whitequark> yeah, works perfectly now.
2012-12-24 13:25 <whitequark> protip: don't deploy while being sleep deprived :D
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2012-12-24 13:39 <kyak> test3
2012-12-24 13:39 <kyak> test4
2012-12-24 13:39 <kyak> ah
2012-12-24 13:40 <kyak> so it is in live update mode when i _don't_ click "Live updates" :)
2012-12-24 13:40 <kyak> ok.. pretty neat, you are right!
2012-12-24 13:40 <kyak> browsers can do everything nowadays.. have no idea how it happens
2012-12-24 13:41 <kyak> it requires some kind of persistent connection, right?
2012-12-24 13:41 <kyak> is it what ajax does?
2012-12-24 13:41 <kyak> ..and im out
2012-12-24 13:44 <whitequark> kyak: server-sent events
2012-12-24 13:44 <whitequark> it's basically a very simple protocol
2012-12-24 13:44 <whitequark> do `curl http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/stream'
2012-12-24 14:07 <larsc> whitequark: hm, a nice to have would be if the script tried to reconnect if the connection was lost
2012-12-24 14:07 <whitequark> larsc: it does
2012-12-24 14:07 <whitequark> at least it should, as that's what SSE specification requires user agent to do
2012-12-24 14:08 <larsc> hm, or maybe it is simply not working at all for me
2012-12-24 14:08 <larsc> when is live updates enabled, when it's gray or when it's white?
2012-12-24 14:08 <whitequark> it should work if the Live Updates button is visible
2012-12-24 14:08 <whitequark> when white
2012-12-24 14:09 <larsc> i haven't seen a single update so fat
2012-12-24 14:09 <larsc> far
2012-12-24 14:09 <whitequark> seeing them right now in this channel. strange. browser?
2012-12-24 14:09 <larsc> Chromium 6.0.472.63 (59945) Built on Debian 6.0.2, running on Debian 6.0.6
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2012-12-24 14:10 <whitequark> not surprising. Chromium 9 is listed as the first version with SSE support for me
2012-12-24 14:11 <whitequark> it might be that Chromium 6 announces it but does not implement correctly
2012-12-24 14:11 <whitequark> SSE is quite a new specification
2012-12-24 14:11 <whitequark> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Server-sent_events/EventSource
2012-12-24 14:11 <larsc> in the javascript console i get "streamFailed to load resource" and nothing more
2012-12-24 14:12 <whitequark> hmmm
2012-12-24 14:13 <larsc> but it does sent a request
2012-12-24 14:13 <whitequark> I might figure out the problem if you'd send me a wireshark dump, but I doubt I can do anything about it, actually.
2012-12-24 14:14 <whitequark> the "proper" way would be to add one of the huge, bloated libraries with tons of fallbacks
2012-12-24 14:15 <whitequark> I don't see any 500's in my log, so the problem is probably with the UA
2012-12-24 14:16 <larsc> test
2012-12-24 14:16 <larsc> chromium 20 works fine
2012-12-24 14:17 <larsc> it's not that important anyway
2012-12-24 14:18 <viric> never heard of SSE before
2012-12-24 14:18 <whitequark> viric: it's a very neat alternative to websockets where you don't really need bidirectional communication with all of its complexity
2012-12-24 14:18 <viric> I see
2012-12-24 14:19 <viric> sounds well, yes.
2012-12-24 14:19 <whitequark> basically you send out "data: (bytes)\n" lines from the server, and that's it
2012-12-24 14:19 <viric> does firefox like it?
2012-12-24 14:19 <viric> how much does that irclog stream send? It doesn't stop :)
2012-12-24 14:19 <viric> ouch, timestamp 2010. I ctrl-c :)
2012-12-24 14:20 <whitequark> viric: ow, I should've placed some limit on that
2012-12-24 14:20 <whitequark> viric: yeah, works with FF, as well as other major browsers
2012-12-24 14:21 <viric> make it stream the daily log
2012-12-24 14:21 <viric> or last 24h
2012-12-24 14:22 <whitequark> viric: by default it streams from the last message in the chat. that isn't a public interface technically
2012-12-24 14:22 <whitequark> but yeah, last 24h it is
2012-12-24 14:22 <viric> why do I see 2010?
2012-12-24 14:22 <whitequark> because I've just implemented that :)
2012-12-24 14:24 <viric> curl exits
2012-12-24 14:24 <viric> 502 bad gateway now
2012-12-24 14:24 <whitequark> yeah, was upgrading the frontend
2012-12-24 14:24 <whitequark> now it works properly
2012-12-24 14:24 <viric> Let's see
2012-12-24 14:24 <viric> looks fine.
2012-12-24 14:24 <viric> does it have keepalive? :)
2012-12-24 14:25 <whitequark> viric: nay. the connection drops after 30s of inactivity
2012-12-24 14:25 <whitequark> not sure of which reason exactly. there's ruby, nginx, and chromium in the stack
2012-12-24 14:25 <viric> becasue it is your will, right?
2012-12-24 14:25 <viric> ouch
2012-12-24 14:25 <whitequark> I was too lazy to implement keepalive
2012-12-24 14:25 <viric> I write all web things in c or go.
2012-12-24 14:25 <viric> I can't stand all those piles.
2012-12-24 14:26 <viric> I want to attach a gdb and see all.
2012-12-24 14:26 <viric> :)
2012-12-24 14:26 <viric> Of course, I don't implement much web things.
2012-12-24 14:26 <whitequark> the only go program (3rd-party) I've ever used segfaulted like hell
2012-12-24 14:26 <whitequark> and as a language it's a step backwards
2012-12-24 14:26 <viric> never trust others code.
2012-12-24 14:26 <whitequark> so I avoid go.
2012-12-24 14:27 <whitequark> ruby, especially as used in webdev, is a huge time-memory tradeoff
2012-12-24 14:27 <viric> luckily different preferences can coexist :)
2012-12-24 14:27 <whitequark> programmer's time vs RAM
2012-12-24 14:28 <viric> well, if the programmer is tuned to ruby, I guess so.
2012-12-24 14:28 <whitequark> as it turns out, server RAM is really cheap
2012-12-24 14:28 <whitequark> viric: you don't need much time to begin writing good ruby. you don't have to care about a lot of stuff.
2012-12-24 14:29 <viric> I've lots of prejudices
2012-12-24 14:29 <viric> I'm unable to learn it.
2012-12-24 14:29 <whitequark> manual memory management, buffer overflows, threading (because it's single-threaded. perfectly fine for webdev.)
2012-12-24 14:29 <viric> due to / thanks to the prejudices
2012-12-24 14:30 <whitequark> well, too much handwaving. it's concurrent, albeit most basic operations are atomic, but not parallel. so on the one hand you need to care about synchronization and race conditions IF you write threaded code, but on the other one there isn't much sense in writing in in the first place.
2012-12-24 14:31 <whitequark> s,in in,it in,
2012-12-24 14:31 <viric> I have a sense of joy when the code I write can run fast and using little resources.
2012-12-24 14:31 <viric> And I feel dirty if don't.
2012-12-24 14:31 <viric> so it's a matter of religion
2012-12-24 14:31 <whitequark> viric: for some people coding is a matter of solving a real problem
2012-12-24 14:32 <whitequark> I guess you're not one of them :)
2012-12-24 14:32 <viric> that's quite pretentious :)
2012-12-24 14:32 <viric> problems can be chosen at will.
2012-12-24 14:32 <larsc> it's an art ;)
2012-12-24 14:32 <whitequark> I absolutely can't stand huge, bloated JavaScript "webapps". precisely because they waste MY resources for nothing
2012-12-24 14:32 <viric> yes. It's important to choose the right problems to solve
2012-12-24 14:33 <whitequark> but, in much the same way, I have nothing against using however huge frameworks with literally hundreds of dependencies on OUR servers if it means that we can ship a feature in a day instead of a month.
2012-12-24 14:33 <whitequark> the user doesn't see that anyway. for him, it's fast.
2012-12-24 14:34 <whitequark> servers are meant to execute huge software, for that matter.
2012-12-24 14:34 <viric> it's not my style
2012-12-24 14:34 <viric> I'm still not out of the market, despite my preferences :)
2012-12-24 14:35 <whitequark> well, market has lots of people who can't program at all
2012-12-24 14:35 <whitequark> so that's not a way to measure it :)
2012-12-24 14:36 <viric> I mean that I still know people who can pay for my work ;)
2012-12-24 14:36 <whitequark> the market for programmers is incredibly heterogenous
2012-12-24 14:37 <DocScrutinizer51> m. xmess!
2012-12-24 14:37 <viric> yes, that's what I meant at the beginning; that there is a place for all of us
2012-12-24 14:37 <whitequark> I know people who write server management software in Haskell
2012-12-24 14:37 <whitequark> presumably as a way of intellectual property protection, as it's even more write-only than perl
2012-12-24 14:38 <whitequark> which is itself quite an achievement.
2012-12-24 14:39 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer51: sounds like an X11 applet name
2012-12-24 14:39 <DocScrutinizer51> hehe
2012-12-24 14:39 <DocScrutinizer51> been seasons greetings though
2012-12-24 14:40 <whitequark> viric: you might especially enjoy http://whitequark.org/blog/2012/12/06/a-language-for-embedded-developers/ :D
2012-12-24 14:42 <viric> and there, by 'embedded' you mean what? :)
2012-12-24 14:42 <whitequark> viric: 32-bit (possibly also 16-bit) micros with von Neumann architecture and however small amounts of RAM you'd like
2012-12-24 14:43 <whitequark> 8K is perfectly fine.
2012-12-24 14:43 <viric> do you run ruby in the nanonote?
2012-12-24 14:43 <whitequark> viric: no, because I wasn't able to come up with a task which is best solved by using NN, and no, that's not a good idea
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2012-12-24 14:44 <viric> would you write a mp3 player for the nanonote with that?
2012-12-24 14:45 <whitequark> viric: in fact mp3 player could work on a NN with current ruby as-is, but that's a different topic
2012-12-24 14:45 <whitequark> with my dialect, yes, and even more
2012-12-24 14:45 <whitequark> I'd happily write an mp3 decoder
2012-12-24 14:45 <viric> ok
2012-12-24 14:46 <viric> you'll have to start the show first, before I join :)
2012-12-24 14:46 <whitequark> indeed, that's what I'm working on right now
2012-12-24 14:47 <viric> ah nice.
2012-12-24 14:47 <whitequark> the first target is Maple Leaf: 32-bit ARM Cortex-M3 w/ 8K RAM, 128K ROM  and amount of peripherals which would make atmegas envious
2012-12-24 14:47 <viric> aha
2012-12-24 14:48 <whitequark> the nice thing about that board is that it's swappable with Arduino, which means I'd instantly get access to an ecosystem (of toys, but even toy feedback can be valuable)
2012-12-24 14:48 <whitequark> well, almost swappable, sans 5V/3V3 levels
2012-12-24 14:48 <whitequark> most of the arduino peripherals are 3V3-safe nowadays
2012-12-24 14:49 <whitequark> http://leaflabs.com/devices/maple/
2012-12-24 14:51 <viric> there was a go rawmetal runtime some time ago...
2012-12-24 14:51 <viric> but got deprecated due to lack of maintainer
2012-12-24 14:51 <whitequark> I'm putting emphasis not on the language itself, but on board support packages
2012-12-24 14:51 <viric> maybe someone will make another one.
2012-12-24 14:51 <viric> Ok
2012-12-24 14:52 <whitequark> it is really cool to be able to initialize an USB HID peripheral with a single line of code.
2012-12-24 14:52 <viric> all can be reduced to a single line. the magic of function calls :)
2012-12-24 14:53 <whitequark> with a single line of code _you_ need  to write
2012-12-24 14:53 <whitequark> and with a sane, fast and debuggable framework to achieve such abstraction
2012-12-24 14:54 <viric> perl people also do all in a single line
2012-12-24 14:54 <whitequark> >sane
2012-12-24 14:54 <viric> that's a matter of taste.
2012-12-24 14:54 <viric> once a brain is tuned to something...
2012-12-24 14:54 <whitequark> what my compiler does is basically constant propagation and inlining taken to the extreme
2012-12-24 14:55 <whitequark> where it becomes more like Lisp's macro expansion, but with all of the benefits and none of the parentheses
2012-12-24 14:55 <viric> you can make it control the muscles to play even a скрипач
2012-12-24 14:55 <whitequark> to play a violinist? :D
2012-12-24 14:55 <whitequark> poor guy
2012-12-24 14:55 <viric> hm
2012-12-24 14:55 <viric> скрипку :)
2012-12-24 14:55 <whitequark> yeah:)
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2012-12-24 22:27 <rjeffries> kristianpaul are you (still?) working on GPS? http://hackaday.com/2012/12/24/update-roll-your-own-gps-can-now-track-twice-as-many-satellites/ wolfspraul was also interested in GPS open h/w, back in the day.
2012-12-24 22:35 <kristianpaul> not right now
2012-12-24 22:35 <kristianpaul> ah interesting
2012-12-24 22:35 <kristianpaul> that receiver is nice you know because dont need to buy a IC but
2012-12-24 22:35 <kristianpaul> still bit bigger tought..
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2012-12-24 23:04 <kristianpaul> rjeffries: did you saw those guys at defconf? they are hacking its own gps receiver
2012-12-24 23:05 <kristianpaul> tought is not a single chip solution (without mention RF IC)
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2012-12-24 23:17 <DocScrutinizer05> completely insane: http://blog.parts-people.com/2012/12/20/mobile-raspberry-pi-computer-build-your-own-portable-rpi-to-go/
2012-12-24 23:18 <DocScrutinizer05> abusing random regulator in LCD as main PSU
2012-12-24 23:18 <DocScrutinizer05> for several Ampere @ 5V
2012-12-24 23:18 <DocScrutinizer05> haha suuuuure
2012-12-24 23:19 <DocScrutinizer05> I mean, that thing is as clumsy and ugly from the outside as it's on schematics ;-D
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2012-12-24 23:34 <kristianpaul> let then be happy :-)
2012-12-24 23:38 <wpwrak> let me contribute a language rant as well: most of the supposedly "friendly" programming languages are implemented in C. by people who - when done - have learned C well enough that they realize that their effort was wasted. at that point, most will silently bury their work. only those who still don't get it, or who lack the moral strength to admit their mistakes push on. now, gives this background, does it make it a good idea to trust
2012-12-24 23:38 <wpwrak>  those languages ? :-)
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