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2012-11-27 00:18 <famine> evening
2012-11-27 00:19 <wolfspraul> ok it looks like the move from the old buildhost was successful, I am now shutting down the old machine
2012-11-27 00:19 <wpwrak> yeah, the schematis histories look good
2012-11-27 00:19 <wolfspraul> and if there are no hickups, I will cancel/return the contract in a few hours
2012-11-27 00:19 <wolfspraul> yes, and without kernel randomizer fix even :-)
2012-11-27 00:20 <wpwrak> amazing :)
2012-11-27 00:20 <wpwrak> what did we need it for in the first place ?
2012-11-27 00:20 <wolfspraul> I need to look into upleveling the patches again at some point, though there is no urgency right now
2012-11-27 00:20 <wolfspraul> ghost diffs
2012-11-27 00:20 <wolfspraul> remember?
2012-11-27 00:20 <wolfspraul> my notes beat your brain! :-)
2012-11-27 00:21 <wolfspraul> there were ghost diffs that you sort-of traced back to an uninitialized variable inside eeschema somewhere...
2012-11-27 00:21 <wpwrak> oh :) must be old age rotting my wetware ...
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2012-11-27 02:46 <wolfspraul> has anyone worked with an nfc chip?
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2012-11-27 02:47 <wolfspraul> roh: do you know a cheap nfc chip?
2012-11-27 02:47 <wolfspraul> I am wondering whether I can hookup one to my slx9 fpga...
2012-11-27 02:54 <wpwrak> specifically for nfc or just for some sort of wireless communication ? if it's the latter case, why not use wpan ? to keep things simple, you can even just add a uSD socket and plug an atben into it.
2012-11-27 02:58 <kristianpaul> why not bluetooth? ;-)
2012-11-27 02:58 <kristianpaul> most phone have bluetooth haha
2012-11-27 02:58 <kristianpaul> ok sorry
2012-11-27 02:58 <kristianpaul> but nfc still been intrododuced right
2012-11-27 02:59 <kristianpaul> sounds interesting at least i hope can do what IR never could.. well :-)
2012-11-27 03:00 <wolfspraul> I was thinking about something that can have a phone on the other side, so wpan won't work
2012-11-27 03:00 <wolfspraul> and just learning about nfc
2012-11-27 03:00 <wpwrak> ah yes, then things get more complicated
2012-11-27 03:03 <kristianpaul> wifi :-)
2012-11-27 03:03 <kristianpaul> roh: pointed some small wifi boards i remenber
2012-11-27 03:09 <wolfspraul> my question was about nfc
2012-11-27 03:10 <kristianpaul> ok
2012-11-27 03:10 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: what phones are your target? all nfc then?
2012-11-27 03:11 <famine> kristianpaul, yea NFC is standard on all newer samsungs
2012-11-27 03:11 <wolfspraul> no specific target right now
2012-11-27 03:26 <kristianpaul> http://www.seeedstudio.com/wiki/NFC_Shield
2012-11-27 03:26 <kristianpaul> to get some ideas..
2012-11-27 03:26 <kristianpaul> but something very portable tought
2012-11-27 03:27 <kristianpaul> not very*
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2012-11-27 03:34 <wolfspraul> interesting. so they use an NXP PN532 chip
2012-11-27 03:34 <wolfspraul> what's supported by libnfc.org... ? (checking)
2012-11-27 03:44 <wolfspraul> seems those pn53x all are
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2012-11-27 03:45 <wolfspraul> my god :-) 10 USD in single-quantities on digikey, and 5.xx USD even for trays/reels of several thousand
2012-11-27 03:46 <wolfspraul> I am a little spoiled here, this is not even an option looking into further as I would expect maybe 1 USD or so :-)
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2012-11-27 09:13 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: hmm, in case you updates piwik recently: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Hintertuer-in-Traffic-Analyse-Software-Piwik-1757145.html
2012-11-27 09:14 <wolfspraul> he :-)
2012-11-27 09:14 <wolfspraul> piwik is on my list of things I would like to remove :-)
2012-11-27 09:14 <wpwrak> how come ?
2012-11-27 09:14 <wolfspraul> no need, maintenance overhead, etc.
2012-11-27 09:15 <wolfspraul> precisely the thing you are pointing to...
2012-11-27 09:15 <wpwrak> ah. yeah, each little piece adds a bit of weight
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2012-11-27 09:34 <larsc> wolfspraul: do you use builtbot or something else for the automated builds?
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2012-11-27 09:52 <viric> did you know that some companies erase the chip writings, and relabel them as they wish, before soldering into boards?
2012-11-27 09:52 <viric> I didn't know it was a common practice
2012-11-27 09:54 <wolfspraul> larsc: have to ask xiangfu
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2012-11-27 10:25 <larsc> ok
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2012-11-27 10:33 <xiangfu> larsc, buildbot. no. just a script file
2012-11-27 10:34 <xiangfu> http://pertain.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-scripts/compile-openwrt-xburst.sh
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2012-11-27 11:39 <larsc> xiangfu: ok thanks
2012-11-27 11:41 <roh> wolfspraul: nope.. nfc is boring and useless.. nobody uses it... kinda like zigbee
2012-11-27 11:42 <roh> lots of talk. basically zero serious applications, extremely bad support
2012-11-27 11:43 <wpwrak> good that you said "zigbee" and not "ieee 802.15.4" :)
2012-11-27 11:45 <wpwrak> and i'd agree on your view of nfc. they all seem to get excited mainly about this being the next form of payment. but then, the existing means are efficient enough. as an added bonus, most people trust them. now, compare this to a computer that's vulnerable to viri and so on ...
2012-11-27 11:45 <roh> wpwrak: sorry.. but people who are stupid enough to put money on android phones.. dont need nfc to get robbed.
2012-11-27 11:46 <wpwrak> but of course, the prospect of being able to get a foot in the money flow may just be too irresistible ...
2012-11-27 11:46 <roh> also its more than idiotic to use something rf for that when you are there already.
2012-11-27 11:47 <wpwrak> well, there are some advanteges in having a completely contact-free technology. but then, given the circumstances ...
2012-11-27 11:47 <roh> so i hope that gets handled similar to CC in serious business...
2012-11-27 11:48 <roh> either cash or electronic cash (with chip and pin).. but if you accept a CC its more expensive, has a minimum transaction value etc.
2012-11-27 11:49 <wpwrak> credit cards are very well received by serious business
2012-11-27 11:49 <wpwrak> some places put a surcharge on their use, but most don't
2012-11-27 11:50 <xiangfu> what about bluetooth ? I bought some bluetooth serial modular. for my mini-slx9 board talk to nowaday device, (android etc)
2012-11-27 11:51 <roh> wpwrak: well.. cc usually mean 'more cost due to fraud'. so its only fair accepting them only for a surcharge.
2012-11-27 11:51 <xiangfu> I bought there are a looot of bluetooth profiles.
2012-11-27 11:51 <wpwrak> chip and pin still isn't universal. e.g., around here, you only have the magnet strip. a while ago, visa were foolish enough to ask for the chip. this caused retailers to fall back to fully manual entry. they dropped the charade within a few days.
2012-11-27 11:52 <wpwrak> xiangfu: BT = complexity = job security ;-)
2012-11-27 11:52 <roh> wpwrak: atleast thats what businesses here do which i know. for one the broker access iss seriously expensive, and for the second you got no gurantee that you got your money. even if somebody was there physicly
2012-11-27 11:53 <roh> i know that its different in europe to other places. but here i dont need a cc and i dont want one. simply too broken system (which makes it expensive)
2012-11-27 11:53 <wpwrak> roh: i know that localized solutions are popular in germany, simply because the local market is fairly large. but on an international scale, there's no way around credit cards (or paypal, if you must)
2012-11-27 11:54 <wpwrak> i think the cc system is great
2012-11-27 11:54 <roh> wpwrak: its nothing special. just chip and pin by force. the magstripe is unused nowadays
2012-11-27 11:54 <wpwrak> it puts the burden of keeping things safe on the companies, not on the customer
2012-11-27 11:54 <wolfspraul> oh well, not much nfc experience then I guess
2012-11-27 11:54 <wolfspraul> :-)
2012-11-27 11:54 <roh> wpwrak: why? it allows fraud and thus makes stuff more expensive for us, the customers. thats a bad system
2012-11-27 11:55 <roh> chip/pin basically moves that all to the banks. not the customer, not the retailer.
2012-11-27 11:55 <wpwrak> fraud can be countered. it's not only a question of keeping the act of paying safe but also of tracking down the criminals
2012-11-27 11:55 <wolfspraul> to me it looks like nfc may have a breakthrough in the next few years
2012-11-27 11:55 <wpwrak> make it decades or perhaps centuries and i may agree :)
2012-11-27 11:57 <roh> wolfspraul: i dont think so.. maybe for getting robbed
2012-11-27 11:57 <wpwrak> roh: chip&pin hase its issues. one is global acceptance. another is that it's "too safe". so if there is an invalid transaction, the client gets screwed because it's "impossible" for a criminal to break the system. and we all know that IT is like a swiss cheese.
2012-11-27 11:57 <roh> wpwrak: as long as there is a customer or retailer the bank can blame, nothing will change.
2012-11-27 11:58 <wpwrak> roh: see, that's the beauty of credit cards: everyone knows they're insecure. so the customer gets great protection. meanwhile, the companies have a massive incentive to do something about cutting down fraud.
2012-11-27 11:59 <roh> and since the bank is much more powerful, there needs to be a generic bias to make it work at all.
2012-11-27 11:59 <roh> wpwrak: well.. thats why retailers around here dont take CC. THEY are the ones who loose.
2012-11-27 12:01 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think nfs is one of those solutions waiting for a problem. if you can provide one, nfc may be the success of your lifetime. else, join the crowd already in the tar pit :)
2012-11-27 12:01 <roh> my point isnt that the system is shit. its that the wrong ones pay for its brokenness.. the customer. that is why i find it very ok and right that there are retailers who ALSO take CC, but add a atleast 10E per invoice surcharge for CC use.
2012-11-27 12:02 <roh> wpwrak: and which of those problems wasnt already solved by atleast 2 different widely popular rf standards?
2012-11-27 12:02 <wpwrak> roh: not even big chains ? even in argentina, the major supermarkets accept credit cards without a fuss. smaller shops don't (because they lack the terminals) or add a surcharge.
2012-11-27 12:02 <wolfspraul> nah
2012-11-27 12:02 <wolfspraul> let's just look at facts. what chips are available
2012-11-27 12:02 <wolfspraul> what devices support them, what payment systems/networks or in general 'vendors' accept them
2012-11-27 12:03 <wolfspraul> who puts marketing money behind them
2012-11-27 12:03 <wolfspraul> etc. etc.
2012-11-27 12:03 <roh> wpwrak: no.  for one: every person with a bank account HAS a chip for years now, and second.. what interrest whould a retailer have?
2012-11-27 12:03 <wolfspraul> and it's a big world, if Asia leads on this (which I don't even think), then that alone will drive tech whether Europe gets it now or a few years later :-)
2012-11-27 12:03 <roh> i mean.. chip and pin is beep, type, ok, done.. 5sec.
2012-11-27 12:03 <wolfspraul> people here love to swipe some card at 7-11 etc
2012-11-27 12:03 <roh> why do something like card and autograph when it takes more time?
2012-11-27 12:04 <wpwrak> roh: here it's sweep, beep, error code ;-)
2012-11-27 12:04 <wpwrak> roh: they they go searching for someone who knows how to work around it (by falling back to some archaic protocol)
2012-11-27 12:04 <wolfspraul> I just noticed apple added nfc in the iphone5, that's a good indicator to take a closer look
2012-11-27 12:04 <wolfspraul> :-)
2012-11-27 12:04 <roh> or rather.. why accept a system which blames you the retailer while being obviously badly designed by a bank
2012-11-27 12:04 <wolfspraul> they get it wrong sometimes, but less so than other tech corps
2012-11-27 12:05 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: steve jobs is dead. thus so are the visions, it seems. don't look for leadersthip there.
2012-11-27 12:05 <wolfspraul> alright then. but I try to understand nfc :-)
2012-11-27 12:05 <wpwrak> hehe :)
2012-11-27 12:05 <wolfspraul> will pay more attention, first step is to find more chips
2012-11-27 12:06 <wolfspraul> if I can't find cheap chips, it will stop right there for me
2012-11-27 12:07 <roh> i really like cash to be fair. much more complicated to loose
2012-11-27 12:08 <roh> wpwrak: btw.. even with a chip and pin card you usually have a minimum turnover in most stores.
2012-11-27 12:08 <roh> wpwrak: because regardless of which card/system one uses.. its all more people involved who want their cut on that transaction
2012-11-27 12:11 <roh> wolfspraul: nfc is the new irda
2012-11-27 12:11 <roh> *veg*
2012-11-27 12:11 <wolfspraul> well let's see
2012-11-27 12:11 <roh> similar range and applications
2012-11-27 12:12 <wolfspraul> I think the dimensions are totally different nowadays, nfc may be in the hands of 2 billion people when irda probably never went above even 10 million
2012-11-27 12:12 <wolfspraul> I am not pushing nfc in any way, I don't care about the tech
2012-11-27 12:12 <roh> i've seen people use it to transfer a vcard once... 2 samsung phones back to back.... why they didnt just send the file via jabber which they use to chat all day long via 3g.. i dont know *g*
2012-11-27 12:12 <wolfspraul> I am just looking at the environment and see things are happening, wonder whether I can make use of it, and done :-)
2012-11-27 12:13 <wolfspraul> I was asking about nfc chips, will do some more research
2012-11-27 12:13 <roh> wolfspraul: no. nfc is in <1% of the highest end smartphones which less than 1 in 6 persons on this earth owns
2012-11-27 12:14 <roh> which makes it way worse available than something like paypal. i rather think they will be the new money than nfc
2012-11-27 12:14 <wpwrak> roh: (cut) yeah. the terminal itself has a cost. often, after that, the differences are minor.
2012-11-27 12:14 <roh> wpwrak: the terminal is rented. from a company doing the service, which then has contracts with banks...
2012-11-27 12:15 <roh> and you only rent via your bank from that company.. so its atleast 2 or 3 parties extra on YOUR side, not involving the cc company of the holder yet ;)
2012-11-27 12:15 <roh> yes its stupid...  but well.. its banks and similar ones
2012-11-27 12:15 <wpwrak> :)
2012-11-27 12:16 <roh> wpwrak: for the congress we always have that issue. so we got some of these terminals and or an online broker
2012-11-27 12:16 <roh> wpwrak: bottomline.. its REALLY expensive.. hundredts of euros per month extra only for getting access (no transactions yet)
2012-11-27 12:16 <roh> thus we add those to the CC prices.
2012-11-27 12:18 <wolfspraul> actually I may have been wrong about the iphone5 and nfc - not sure whether it has is or not... for completeness
2012-11-27 12:24 <wpwrak> roh: bah, considering the money you're moving that's nothing :)
2012-11-27 12:25 <roh> wpwrak: there is also a per transaction fee i think. well. its still not fair to ask people not using a broken system to pay for it. so its only the CC users.
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2012-11-27 13:38 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: perhaps the lack of BT security is not a problem if think is a free on the air protocol :-)
2012-11-27 13:38 <kristianpaul> but this had been long been shiped in phones
2012-11-27 13:38 <kristianpaul> my old se have BT and irda ;)
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2012-11-27 13:47 <xiangfu> kristianpaul, any advices on bluetooth chip/modular/profiles?
2012-11-27 13:47 <xiangfu> I want it direct communicate with nowaday mobile device.
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2012-11-27 13:50 <xiangfu> there are quiet a lot of bluetooth profiles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_profile)
2012-11-27 13:51 <kristianpaul> hmm
2012-11-27 13:52 <kristianpaul> yeah thats a problem..
2012-11-27 13:54 <kristianpaul> usually require an app
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2012-11-27 15:31 <qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Renamed 'dingux' platform to 'a320' (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/6629a63
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2012-11-27 23:24 <wpwrak> aha. got an interesting question: how many hours does the regular work week in chinese fab (electronics) have, before overtime ?
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