2012-11-23 00:05 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: it will be difficult to practically help him
2012-11-23 00:05 <wolfspraul> does he speak chinese? how long is he here? does he just want to buy the slx9 or other things as well?
2012-11-23 00:06 <wolfspraul> can he navigate in beijing by himself?
2012-11-23 00:06 <wolfspraul> beijing is huge an inefficient, if you are new basically every little thing you want to do outside takes you a full day. after some time (even for Chinese), you can bring it down to "a few hours"
2012-11-23 00:07 <wolfspraul> most people will try to stay where they are and let courier services deliver stuff to them :-) but for that you need fluent Chinese to direct people on the phone about what to do...
2012-11-23 00:07 <wolfspraul> I can try to help but also a little hesitating to spend a whole day traveling around to help a foreigner buy a 10 USD chip :-)
2012-11-23 00:11 <kristianpaul> nope chinesee.. not that i know
2012-11-23 00:11 <kristianpaul> he ask me if i need something
2012-11-23 00:12 <kristianpaul> i said slx9 ;)
2012-11-23 00:12 <kristianpaul> to be honest i dont bet he would do it, but i have to give him the information
2012-11-23 00:13 <kristianpaul> dont help i'm betting him :D
2012-11-23 00:13 <kristianpaul> he will be another days i think 4
2012-11-23 00:13 <kristianpaul> and i guess want buy other stuff out of my concern
2012-11-23 00:14 <kristianpaul>  huge an inefficient, :-/
2012-11-23 00:14 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: no please dont help ;)
2012-11-23 00:14 <wolfspraul> he can buy the slx9 off-the-shelf in a little booth not more than 100m from a subway exit
2012-11-23 00:15 <wpwrak> huge and inefficient, like any well-run bureaucracy :)
2012-11-23 00:15 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: ;)
2012-11-23 00:15 <wolfspraul> BUT... which booth? which subway station and exit. and still need to make it through a gazillion of other confusing signs booths people etc.
2012-11-23 00:15 <kristianpaul> hehe
2012-11-23 00:16 <wolfspraul> there must be hundreds of places selling those in beijing, but tracking one down specifically requires some knowledge of locality. in china you would just use qq or phone/instant messaging, then track down the source or have them send to you (much easier)
2012-11-23 00:16 <kristianpaul> he is bit far looking at the map for chanpeig, beijing..
2012-11-23 00:16 <wolfspraul> as I said - everything is far :-)
2012-11-23 00:16 <wolfspraul> not just he
2012-11-23 00:16 <kristianpaul> he traveld to visit some indutrial parks
2012-11-23 00:16 <kristianpaul> jaja
2012-11-23 00:16 <kristianpaul> parks may not be right word..
2012-11-23 00:17 <kristianpaul> qq :)
2012-11-23 00:17 <wolfspraul> maybe inefficient is the wrong word. most people would have stuff delivered to them
2012-11-23 00:17 <kristianpaul> xiangfu gave some some data perhaps he could call it if know chinesse..
2012-11-23 00:17 <wolfspraul> then you don't care how inefficient it is, because some poor guy will freeze off his fingers delivering the goods to you for 1-2 USD
2012-11-23 00:17 <kristianpaul> call the shop!
2012-11-23 00:18 <kristianpaul> not xianfgu =)
2012-11-23 00:18 <wolfspraul> yes exactly
2012-11-23 00:18 <wolfspraul> call, order, deliver
2012-11-23 00:18 <kristianpaul> exactly
2012-11-23 00:18 <wolfspraul> but - how to pay? how to talk on the phone?
2012-11-23 00:18 <kristianpaul> he
2012-11-23 00:18 <wpwrak> ah, it's winter over there :)
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2012-11-23 00:18 <wolfspraul> chinese can pay from their phone in seconds, but a foreigner without cards/accounts/banks/etc will have trouble with those things
2012-11-23 00:18 <kristianpaul> ah good point
2012-11-23 00:18 <kristianpaul> hum hum
2012-11-23 00:18 <kristianpaul> how do you pay?
2012-11-23 00:18 <kristianpaul> phone? ;D
2012-11-23 00:18 <kristianpaul> i dont bet :)
2012-11-23 00:19 <wolfspraul> I keep myself out of those things
2012-11-23 00:19 <kristianpaul> anyway he just wanted to advertise me his recent travel
2012-11-23 00:20 <wolfspraul> but ok if I would have to I would set it up, as it's the only way to get things done fast
2012-11-23 00:20 <kristianpaul> so i ask for that.. lets see how it results
2012-11-23 00:21 <kristianpaul> ha if i could call and speak chinesse ;)
2012-11-23 00:21 <kristianpaul> anyway, hi !
2012-11-23 00:21 <kristianpaul> did you looked and J1 forth cpu btw?
2012-11-23 00:22 <wolfspraul> yes sure
2012-11-23 00:22 <wolfspraul> that was a great pdf link
2012-11-23 00:22 <kristianpaul> if you add clock support and bram basically thats the shortest path to a working cpu i guess you tought that time ago :)
2012-11-23 00:22 <kristianpaul> great as in...
2012-11-23 00:22 <wolfspraul> 'look' may be too much though, I just skimp over it and mentally file somewhere
2012-11-23 00:22 <kristianpaul> good reading or soemthing else
2012-11-23 00:22 <kristianpaul> ?
2012-11-23 00:22 <wolfspraul> well one by one
2012-11-23 00:22 <wolfspraul> I'm working towards the blinking led, right?
2012-11-23 00:22 <kristianpaul> yes
2012-11-23 00:22 <kristianpaul> shift register i remember?
2012-11-23 00:22 <kristianpaul> this version
2012-11-23 00:22 <kristianpaul> next*
2012-11-23 00:23 <wolfspraul> blinking led is not using a shift register
2012-11-23 00:23 <wolfspraul> but yes, those are missing too, same as tons of other things
2012-11-23 00:23 <wolfspraul> I had to do some more groundwork in recent weeks
2012-11-23 00:23 <wolfspraul> too bad, but ok, hopefully it will help in the long run
2012-11-23 00:24 <kristianpaul> but i will? (shift reg or any other eq counter implementation? )
2012-11-23 00:24 <wolfspraul> you mean whether I will support it?
2012-11-23 00:24 <wolfspraul> of course, absolutely
2012-11-23 00:24 <wolfspraul> I want to support all of the chip's features
2012-11-23 00:24 <wolfspraul> and shift registers are quite high on the list
2012-11-23 00:24 <kristianpaul> ahmm
2012-11-23 00:24 <wolfspraul> but first the basic luts and clocks
2012-11-23 00:24 <wolfspraul> then bram, shift regs, jtag, spi, macc
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2012-11-23 00:26 <kristianpaul> ok
2012-11-23 00:30 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: what do you like about the j1 cpu?
2012-11-23 00:30 <wolfspraul> any specific plans?
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2012-11-23 00:32 <kristianpaul> learn forth ;)
2012-11-23 00:32 <kristianpaul> no more plans
2012-11-23 00:32 <kristianpaul> i like things with single porpused
2012-11-23 00:32 <kristianpaul> well i used to that when programing microcontrollers...
2012-11-23 00:33 <kristianpaul> i like the most i dont need a fancy compiler
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2012-11-23 00:33 <kristianpaul> is small and simpler
2012-11-23 00:34 <kristianpaul> and the closest thing i see you can implement with fpgatools :)
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2012-11-23 00:34 <wolfspraul> ok but sounds like you are mostly wishing those things
2012-11-23 00:34 <wolfspraul> how can we bring it into reality?
2012-11-23 00:34 <kristianpaul> the fpgatools part yes
2012-11-23 00:34 <wolfspraul> one thing about forth seems to be that they are quite good at articulating something people may want
2012-11-23 00:34 <kristianpaul> the learning part i could, but yes for now is just a wishlit
2012-11-23 00:34 <wolfspraul> but where is the actual realization?
2012-11-23 00:34 <wolfspraul> "don't need a fancy compiler"
2012-11-23 00:35 <wolfspraul> sounds great
2012-11-23 00:35 <kristianpaul> haha
2012-11-23 00:35 <wolfspraul> but show me something that actually runs
2012-11-23 00:35 <kristianpaul> :-)
2012-11-23 00:35 <wolfspraul> maybe then it doesn't sound so great anymore that "you don't need a fancy compiler"?
2012-11-23 00:35 <wolfspraul> yes so that all reads well to me, but I want to make it run and do something - not just some fancy words
2012-11-23 00:36 <kristianpaul> i know what you mean...
2012-11-23 00:36 <wolfspraul> I want a computer that reads my mind and does what I want it to do
2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> then I only need one command "do"
2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> wouldn't that be cool?
2012-11-23 00:37 <kristianpaul> jaja
2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> I should write a paper about it...
2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> do!
2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> do!
2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> cool
2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> it's also perfect for kids
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2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> oh wait, kids mostly say "give me" or "I want"
2012-11-23 00:37 <wolfspraul> hmm
2012-11-23 00:37 <kristianpaul> okay to much coffe :) got it!
2012-11-23 00:38 <kristianpaul> lol
2012-11-23 00:38 <wolfspraul> nah I like the paper, but I want to know how to make it work
2012-11-23 00:38 <wolfspraul> so let's make it real, and if nothing real I will dump it :-)
2012-11-23 00:39 <wolfspraul> coffee yes, back to fpga switches... :-)
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2012-11-23 09:46 <LunaVorax> Hi
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2012-11-23 12:51 <wpwrak> writing compilers isn't all THAT hard. plus, who cares if it's fancy if it runs on a PC ?
2012-11-23 12:54 <wpwrak> (writing compilers) that is, for a reasonably simple language. of course, if you want to beat gcc or llvm, there'll be some work involved
2012-11-23 12:54 <larsc> writing _good_ compilers on the other hand is a different story
2012-11-23 12:57 <wpwrak> yeah. but a simple one that lets you write code that blinks a led while a button is pressed or such things, and that doesn't have to be particularly efficient, would be quite simple.
2012-11-23 12:58 <larsc> I'm currently taking the coursera compiler class, it's quite good imo
2012-11-23 12:59 <larsc> https://www.coursera.org/course/compilers
2012-11-23 12:59 <larsc> need to write the semantic checker tonight
2012-11-23 12:59 <wpwrak> wirth's book on compiler design covers one such language quite nicely. i read the pascal-ish one. this seems to be an updated version: http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/CBEAll.pdf&sa=U&ei=4HKvUKPRM46F0QHuuICAAg&ved=0CBUQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGxDramddD3bwOYKYZmBKDggAp34A
2012-11-23 12:59 <wpwrak> argh
2012-11-23 12:59 <wpwrak> www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/CBEAll.pdf
2012-11-23 13:00 * wpwrak hates google's uncopyable search results
2012-11-23 13:01 <wpwrak> with 131 pages it's a refreshing difference from the other tomes usually sized like epic fantasy novels
2012-11-23 13:02 <wpwrak> oh, and with yacc at your disposition, you get operator precedence basically for free. yet another one of the scary bits someone else is taking care of for you.
2012-11-23 13:06 <wpwrak> i think the old one is "compilerbau". 118 pages :)
2012-11-23 13:22 <viric> wpwrak: I also hate them (search results)
2012-11-23 13:22 <viric> with a pdf, it gets specially annoying
2012-11-23 13:22 <viric> but I think they overcome that with javascript tricks, if you had javascript enabled :)
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2012-11-23 13:32 <wpwrak> javascript is on, of course. there's very little that works without it :-(
2012-11-23 13:32 <GNUtoo-desktop> wpwrak, maybe use duck duck go then?
2012-11-23 13:33 <wpwrak> that's an option, yes
2012-11-23 13:33 <viric> ah ok
2012-11-23 13:33 <viric> duckduckgo uses bing
2012-11-23 13:33 <viric> iirc
2012-11-23 13:34 <GNUtoo-desktop> it uses many things
2012-11-23 13:34 <viric> use seeks
2012-11-23 13:34 <GNUtoo-desktop> it probably uses a combinaison of bing, google, yahoo and its own stuff
2012-11-23 13:35 <viric> I'd say it uses bing, and only some times, it gives a special big link of its own cook
2012-11-23 13:36 * GNUtoo-desktop doesn't understand why what backend it uses is important
2012-11-23 13:38 <viric> I thought wpwrak meant *google*
2012-11-23 13:39 <viric> seeks will use google.
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2012-11-23 15:09 <mth> wpwrak: how does that work? (yacc doing operator precendence for you)
2012-11-23 15:09 <mth> I've always coded compilers by hand, but operator precendence is determined by how you write your grammar, not by how you code it
2012-11-23 15:10 <mth> I thought yacc takes something akin to EBNF as input; if so the operator precedence should be already determined in the input
2012-11-23 15:10 <larsc> you tell yacc the precendence order and it will take care of it
2012-11-23 15:10 <mth> it has a more high-level input format that?
2012-11-23 15:11 <mth> s/that/then/
2012-11-23 15:11 <qi-bot> mth meant: "it has a more high-level input format then?"
2012-11-23 15:11 <wpwrak> larsc: that's the dirty way
2012-11-23 15:11 <wpwrak> mth: and yes, what i mean is the grammar
2012-11-23 15:12 <larsc> well you use the precendence order to resolve ambiguities in your grammar
2012-11-23 15:12 <wpwrak> larsc: you mean in your sloppy grammar :)
2012-11-23 15:13 <larsc> keeps the grammar much simpler
2012-11-23 15:13 <wpwrak> mth: e.g., a recursive-descent parser can't do proper operator precedence (without adding extra twists)
2012-11-23 15:14 <mth> you only need a look ahead of one symbol to be able to do it
2012-11-23 15:14 <wpwrak> larsc:  you have to think a little harder. but that's often a good thing :)
2012-11-23 15:14 <larsc> wpwrak: I need to do the transformations that yacc does for me by hand
2012-11-23 15:15 <larsc> mth: the grammar also has to have other certain properties
2012-11-23 15:16 <wpwrak> larsc: and by doing this, you purge your grammar from "magic". makes it easier to resolve conflicts you'll run into later.
2012-11-23 15:16 <larsc> I belive in magic ;)
2012-11-23 15:17 <mth> larsc: yes, but it is implementable with a recursive descent parser with a lookahead of just one, if your grammar satisfies those properties
2012-11-23 15:17 <larsc> believe
2012-11-23 15:17 <wpwrak> that one's the bad kind :)
2012-11-23 15:18 <mth> magic is great if it works, but as soon as it breaks down you'll be wishing you'd be dealing with something simpler
2012-11-23 15:18 <larsc> iirc, you use the lookahead to resolve shift-reduce-conflicts
2012-11-23 15:18 <larsc> if your grammar does not have any you can also use a parser with 0 lookahead
2012-11-23 15:20 <mth> it's been a while since I did compiler theory, but doesn't 0 lookahead put you somewhere on the level of regular expressions?
2012-11-23 15:22 <mth> or maybe not even that, just a finite state machine
2012-11-23 15:22 <larsc> you have a stack don't you?
2012-11-23 15:24 <mth> what does lookahead 0 mean anyway? I guess that once you see the symbol you have to immediately consume it (no peek operation)
2012-11-23 15:31 <larsc> iirc with lookahead of one you look at the next terminal symbol and based on that decide how to handle your current symbol
2012-11-23 15:31 <larsc> with lookahead of zero you don't look at the next terminal, but just use your current symbol
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2012-11-23 16:10 <mth> by that definition you can even do operator precedence with a lookahead of 0
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2012-11-23 23:51 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: you like tiny boards, check this http://keithp.com/blogs/MicroPeak/
2012-11-23 23:54 <wpwrak> they;re wasting a lot of space
2012-11-23 23:54 <kristianpaul> lol
2012-11-23 23:55 <kristianpaul> check backwards the battery socket
2012-11-23 23:55 <wpwrak> yup. with the through-hole variant, the board could be smaller
2012-11-23 23:55 <wpwrak> by some 4 mm
2012-11-23 23:57 <kristianpaul> ahm yes