2012-11-01 00:14 guanucoluis has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 00:51 antgreen has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2012-11-01 01:16 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 01:52 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 02:04 guanucoluis has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 02:50 zedstar has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2012-11-01 02:51 zedstar has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 02:51 zedstar has quit [Changing host] 2012-11-01 02:51 zedstar has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 02:51 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2012-11-01 02:51 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 02:58 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 03:11 xiangfu: morning! 2012-11-01 03:21 guanucoluis has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 03:35 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 03:39 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2012-11-01 03:56 jurting__ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-11-01 04:03 ha is amazing i couldbuy a 1.2V regulator locally.. 2012-11-01 04:03 perhaps i could use a diode ;) 2012-11-01 04:03 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2012-11-01 04:03 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 04:05 dvdk hey David, still sometimes following here? 2012-11-01 04:05 (he used to read the backlog, so I try :-)) 2012-11-01 04:05 I spent a whole day the other day trying to track down what colorforth and OKAD and those ga144 chips are really about, but couldn't... 2012-11-01 04:05 do you know more? 2012-11-01 04:06 it looks like a refusal to reuse/use any other software, resulting in 'no source code' and in the end just some web pages at colorforth.com ? 2012-11-01 04:06 or is there more? 2012-11-01 04:06 does OKAD run? are there OKAD source codes? 2012-11-01 04:06 are the chip designs for those GA144 chips published? do they exist anywhere but in Chuck's brain? :-) 2012-11-01 04:07 we have to track him down in his cabin in the western midlands somewhere? :-) 2012-11-01 04:07 thinking about the next forth single porpuse computer (after the wikireader?) 2012-11-01 04:07 I was comparing vlsi cad software, came across electric, magic, alliance and toped. and the elusive OKAD... 2012-11-01 04:07 ahmm 2012-11-01 04:07 ok 2012-11-01 04:07 not really, I just want to compare what's around 2012-11-01 04:07 sure sure 2012-11-01 04:11 i'm to new for forth, but i remenber mcus optimized for java :p 2012-11-01 04:11 hmm. http://www.ultratechnology.com/okad.htm 2012-11-01 04:12 was unhappy with the existing tools. too bulky and don't do what he wants to do. so far, that sounds familiar. 2012-11-01 04:13 then he built his own operating system, "OK". with one thing running on it, that OKAD. erm, what was that about the cabin again ? :) 2012-11-01 04:14 come on, give it a chance :) 2012-11-01 04:15 you could had write lilo in forth ;-) 2012-11-01 04:16 Is there someone here who can help xiangfu through the next step of debian bureaucracy? 2012-11-01 04:16 at least i didn't "entered the kernel of [it] using a debugger " 2012-11-01 04:16 some packages like fped (and fpgatools) need a 'sponsor', I believe with "DD" rights 2012-11-01 04:16 it's amazing to see how much bureaucracy there is, he he 2012-11-01 04:16 yes 2012-11-01 04:16 that is definitely worse than a lot of small country governments I dealt with 2012-11-01 04:16 DD <- bureaucracy, yeah... :-/ 2012-11-01 04:16 and then they are surprised why the number of bug reports has declined by almost 50% in the last 6 years 2012-11-01 04:17 afaik my debian mentor is a bit away since two yeards ago... let me see what can i do 2012-11-01 04:17 i have no clue about debian bureaucracy. i think in this case ignorance is bliss :) 2012-11-01 04:17 bureaucracy 2012-11-01 04:17 perhaps he can join #debian-co and ask :-) 2012-11-01 04:17 the problem with the bureaucrats is that all orgs are self selecting 2012-11-01 04:17 there are two friendly DD there 2012-11-01 04:17 eventually only those types are left that start their computers to find typos 2012-11-01 04:18 http://mentors.debian.net/packages/uploader/xiangfu%40openmobilefree.net 2012-11-01 04:18 I see it quite fatalastic, same as I would deal wtih any US/China/Germany-type bureaucracy 2012-11-01 04:18 then it's fun, no problem 2012-11-01 04:18 how many years are we trying to get fped uploaded now? 2012-11-01 04:18 just one or two 2012-11-01 04:18 pah 2012-11-01 04:18 nothing in the bigger picture of the universe 2012-11-01 04:18 wpwrak, Hi 2012-11-01 04:18 people are born, retired, whatever 2012-11-01 04:19 and fped is in status XYZ... ;-) 2012-11-01 04:19 [commit] Xiangfu: modules: bga: add 324 footprint (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/87db425 2012-11-01 04:19 wpwrak, I am create the csg324 chip footprint. but I have problem on the 'row', you can see that in (this^) commit. 2012-11-01 04:20 oops http://www.donarmstrong.com/posts/bug_reporting_rate/ 2012-11-01 04:20 wolfspraul: on my ubuntu, fped is available as a package. so the/some result is there 2012-11-01 04:20 good :-) 2012-11-01 04:20 kristianpaul: thanks! 2012-11-01 04:21 #debian-co <--- debian irc servers 2012-11-01 04:21 I believe the link I posted is where the "sponsors" can assert their powers 2012-11-01 04:21 wpwrak, fped is real great. once I have the 484 footprint. we you edit ~10 variables . then we get csg324. 2012-11-01 04:21 well he needs ask anyway 2012-11-01 04:21 pabs3: do you know anyone? 2012-11-01 04:21 he if join debian.co i cna try convice DD's 2012-11-01 04:21 we get there 2012-11-01 04:22 btw, after some X years xiangfu has "dm" power now? 2012-11-01 04:22 xiangfu: was it "dm"? 2012-11-01 04:22 WOHOOO! 2012-11-01 04:22 DEEE EMMM 2012-11-01 04:22 that is it 2012-11-01 04:22 wolfspraul: know anyone? 2012-11-01 04:22 someone who could help with the 'sponsor' thing? 2012-11-01 04:22 http://mentors.debian.net/packages/uploader/xiangfu%40openmobilefree.net 2012-11-01 04:23 wpwrak, it's old package. I have a new version here: 'https://mentors.debian.net/package/fped'. and now I am a DM. so I need a DD upload a new version with one line add (DM-Upload-Allowed: yes) 2012-11-01 04:23 then I can upload/update the package by myself. 2012-11-01 04:23 DM! 2012-11-01 04:23 dm is okay for fped 2012-11-01 04:23 wolfspraul, yes. it's dm (debian maintainer) 2012-11-01 04:23 but he needs sponsor for fpgatools 2012-11-01 04:24 easier to get a US green card 2012-11-01 04:24 lol ;) 2012-11-01 04:24 it is 2012-11-01 04:24 debian can be proud 2012-11-01 04:24 they are so big they are approaching the bureaucracy of the largest country on earth 2012-11-01 04:24 that must be a sign of victory! 2012-11-01 04:24 universal victory :p 2012-11-01 04:24 kristianpaul, fped, it still need a DD upload a new version with one line add (DM-Upload-Allowed: yes) 2012-11-01 04:24 xiangfu: FYI, DMUA is deprecated: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2012/09/msg00008.html 2012-11-01 04:25 xiangfu: aahmmm i tought was un-reviwed... :/ 2012-11-01 04:25 kristianpaul: xiangfu has a sponsor for fpgatools already 2012-11-01 04:25 yup 2012-11-01 04:26 kristianpaul: http://lists.debian.org/20121009121100.230230@gmx.net 2012-11-01 04:26 ah good ! 2012-11-01 04:27 looks like Jan Luebbe sponsored fped 2012-11-01 04:27 xiangfu: (row) problem. ah yes, messy. best to move the index outside the table 2012-11-01 04:28 that is a wonderful mail there (new DUMA thing) 2012-11-01 04:28 I stand by my bureaucracy observation 2012-11-01 04:28 btw, there is an electronics software packaging team that might be interested in helping: http://wiki.debian.org/PkgElectronics 2012-11-01 04:28 a change in US green card processing could not be any more intricate 2012-11-01 04:28 wpwrak, you DO not sleep. it's 1AM Buenos Aires :-) 2012-11-01 04:29 of the 5 "advantages" listed there one is "DM can't give another DM upload rights for his package anymore" 2012-11-01 04:29 that's an advantage? 2012-11-01 04:29 another bottleneck created 2012-11-01 04:29 great :-) 2012-11-01 04:29 xiangfu: hehe ;-) 2012-11-01 04:29 the pope himself should sign (and stamp!) a holy letter before any bit moves at all! 2012-11-01 04:30 wpwrak, the first/last/inner frames is useless for bga484/324 right? is that for further use? like some BGA don't have balls at center. 2012-11-01 04:30 the stamp is only valid if stamped exactly at midnight every year Easter Sunday 2012-11-01 04:30 makes it safer! 2012-11-01 04:30 wolfspraul: removal of one of the remaining loopholes to avoid bureaucracy :) 2012-11-01 04:30 wpwrak, (best to move the index outside the table) please give me more advise. :) what about those rname? 2012-11-01 04:30 pabs3: what if a sponsor looses interest, drags his feet or becomes unresponsive? 2012-11-01 04:31 can you 'unsponsor' a package to look for a new sponsor? can there be two sponsors? 2012-11-01 04:31 can a sponsor marry another sponsor? 2012-11-01 04:31 xiangfu: there are a few things wrong there ... fixing ... just watch :) 2012-11-01 04:31 * pabs3 gets bored and goes to watch tv 2012-11-01 04:31 :-) 2012-11-01 04:32 [commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/bga.fpd: make "row" a loop and use the "row" table only for lookups (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/e5c8bd9 2012-11-01 04:32 on a serious note, does it matter that Debian's bug activity is 40% less now than it was 6 years ago? 2012-11-01 04:32 maybe it's becoming so mature we should just consider the whole thing as more or less stable... 2012-11-01 04:32 this one gets the geometry right. now the Nr-plication of stuff that's needed only once ... 2012-11-01 04:33 wolfspraul: yeah, meaningless statistics 2012-11-01 04:33 I was surprised about the magnitude of the decline, although it is quite obvious that the whole scene becomes more and more sleepy 2012-11-01 04:33 wpwrak: how so? 2012-11-01 04:33 people report bugs differently? not at all? there are less bugs? 2012-11-01 04:33 time is an insufficient correlator. well, you can use this sort of statistics to plan the disk space for the bug database 2012-11-01 04:34 wpwrak, ?row. great. we do need more documents on fped. :-D 2012-11-01 04:34 xiangfu: isn't it self-explaining ? ;-)) 2012-11-01 04:34 bugs per second over 8 years is 'insufficient'? 2012-11-01 04:34 * xiangfu have csg324 footprint now. ready to design some PCB for csg324. 2012-11-01 04:34 the bug tracker is used less, for sure 2012-11-01 04:35 anyway we won't stop there bigger trends here 2012-11-01 04:35 pabs3 has quit [Quit: Don't rest until all the world is paved in moss and greenery.] 2012-11-01 04:35 these 2012-11-01 04:35 I won't go watch TV, but enjoy some sunshine outside :-) 2012-11-01 04:40 pabs3 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 04:41 [commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/bga.fpd: don't draw outline Nr time. Once is plenty. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/ef5fb20 2012-11-01 04:42 xiangfu: now the looping is also a bit better. and yes, inner/outer aren't used. not sure what the idea for them was. (bga.fpd comes from adam) 2012-11-01 04:42 so my vlsi cad comparison led me to toped 2012-11-01 04:43 http://www.toped.org.uk 2012-11-01 04:43 will play with that a little 2012-11-01 04:43 maybe I can abuse it as my visual fpga editor :-) 2012-11-01 04:43 there are some BGAs that have a "stripe" pattern but then, they usually don't assign column numbers to unused column. there are bgas with a empty square at the center, but then you'd also need to skip "inner" columns. so may be this just wasn't finished. 2012-11-01 04:43 the other tree I looked at were magic and electric, which seemed to be very old (from the 80's) and without much new development 2012-11-01 04:44 and alliance which is newer (some french university), but also it seems recently they stopped developing/funding? 2012-11-01 04:44 "very stable" ;-) 2012-11-01 04:44 electric was sponsored by sun but that seems to have stopped around 2009 2012-11-01 04:45 toped seems like a really new and fresh thing wiht active development (though just 1 or 2 people mainly, I think) 2012-11-01 04:45 so I start there... 2012-11-01 04:53 toped looks promising. i wonder if the thing about the scripting language means that you get human-readable data files as well (like it is the case with fped) 2012-11-01 04:53 wpwrak, (bgg "inner") ok. I think I will just remove it now. if we needs some bga have a empty square at the center. then we think about it. 2012-11-01 04:54 xiangfu: sounds reasonable 2012-11-01 04:55 probably not [human readable] 2012-11-01 04:55 their native file format is some sort of binary database 2012-11-01 04:55 just keep in mind that the size and efficiency of those files is paramount 2012-11-01 04:56 that was the main reason for the switch from GDSII to OASIS in recent years 2012-11-01 04:56 when you are dealing with billions of transistors, 'human readable' may just not be that important 2012-11-01 05:00 http://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/445-dawn-oasis.html 2012-11-01 05:00 hmm ... if they're really that large, then binary would make sense 2012-11-01 05:00 nice article about the move from gdsii to oasis 2012-11-01 05:03 it would be nice to have a way to export to a human-readable format or otherwise make the data accessible to line-based tools 2012-11-01 05:03 but that's for that specific purpose then, and for other purposes you need other optimizations 2012-11-01 05:04 it does make a difference whether the file I send around to a manufacturer is 2 GB or 20 GB... 2012-11-01 05:04 emeb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2012-11-01 05:04 yeah. if things have to be that big, then that becomes an issue 2012-11-01 05:23 lindi- has left #qi-hardware ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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The source-code is mostly in assembler, with a little color-forth code put on top. Very ugly and undocumented (at least the asm part). 2012-11-01 10:26 urandom__ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 10:26 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2012-11-01 10:29 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 10:37 wolfspraul has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2012-11-01 10:43 Guest55383 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 10:52 dvdk: that was roughly what I thought 2012-11-01 10:52 oops, nick... one sec 2012-11-01 10:52 Guest55383 has quit [Quit: leaving] 2012-11-01 10:53 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 10:55 dvdk: but isn't that a pity? so there is all this talk about how great it is, but then there is nothing really... 2012-11-01 10:55 there are some strange colorized assembler codes for DOS (!) which may or may not run under early-90's 'Windows'? urgh... 2012-11-01 10:55 as for OKAD? it exists? or is it just a myth? I still don't get it 2012-11-01 10:55 'it' is something as tangible as "source code"? 2012-11-01 10:55 it seems totally lost, this whole thing. I shall continue with toped unless I feel some boost of enlightenment around OKAD one day :-) 2012-11-01 10:56 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 10:56 OKAD does in fact exist. You just need some form of autism to being able to operate it. And I don't think that you can buy it, nor that there is much written documentation. 2012-11-01 10:56 the download of all sources from digitalarrays comes with a disclaimer that their software is only allowed to run on their ga144 chips 2012-11-01 10:56 another step 20+ years back 2012-11-01 10:56 and that is supposed to be "public domain"? 2012-11-01 10:56 man man :-) 2012-11-01 10:57 they should really all just retire to some cabins in Montana... 2012-11-01 10:57 ik okad public domain? i know that colorforth is. But okad is like 1 MB of (compressed ) color-forth source, I never saw a copy online. 2012-11-01 10:57 ah ok 2012-11-01 10:57 why not? 2012-11-01 10:57 something strange about this Interweb thing? 2012-11-01 10:58 did you read this stuff about colorforth http://www.colorforth.com/cf.htm 2012-11-01 10:58 the ga144 chip was 'designed' in/with OKAD? 2012-11-01 10:58 yes I read most of the colorforth.com/... pages 2012-11-01 10:58 that's the most tangible stuff I could find 2012-11-01 10:58 ah, ok. 2012-11-01 10:58 so I tried to understand the few colorforth sourcees that come with colorforth. 2012-11-01 10:59 It even claims to have a FAT export to floppy disk. Which is required to output those mask files okad generates. 2012-11-01 10:59 I knew I had to ask you to find someone who went deeper into this path of insanity than I would have wanted to :-) 2012-11-01 10:59 I somewher had some info how it operates. 2012-11-01 10:59 FAT floppy disks... 2012-11-01 10:59 is everything OK with those people? 2012-11-01 11:00 http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/support/download-02a.html 2012-11-01 11:00 It's like: you have to create an enmpty file of size XXX on the floppy disk using windows, then colorforth's "file output" routine can dump a blob of data there. 2012-11-01 11:00 "software may only be used with chips manufactured by GreenArrays" 2012-11-01 11:00 can I dismiss all this stuff as "crazy stuff of some old hippies" and move on and forward with the real world? 2012-11-01 11:01 or is there more to it? 2012-11-01 11:01 colorforth even has a (approx 20-line) implementation of a "png export". also it generates a fixed header that amounts to no compression (like a pseudo huffman table, dunno), then dumps the binary data in a way that it looks like a png to an average png reader. 2012-11-01 11:01 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 11:02 the forth world 2012-11-01 11:02 any reason why OKAD was never uploaded/published? 2012-11-01 11:02 If you are a friend of extreme minimalism, than OKAD and CF may be interesting. But you want to build real-world chips, with real registers and cache and mmu etc., that's somewhat incompatible with the OKAD and CF philosophy 2012-11-01 11:02 is all this stuff serious in any way? 2012-11-01 11:02 honestly it strikes me as mostly some form of insanity 2012-11-01 11:02 wolfspra1l: well, they did design an asynchronous multi-core CPU with it that actually works, so judge yourself :) 2012-11-01 11:02 it's a bit like the Amish. 2012-11-01 11:02 well 2012-11-01 11:02 but that CPU has only like 3 registers and 128 bytes of RAM. 2012-11-01 11:02 what software runs on those chips, and when? 2012-11-01 11:03 in reality, not as yet another 'grand plan' 2012-11-01 11:03 and who is using them? 2012-11-01 11:03 these chips implement something like a few color-forth-primitives in hardware. 2012-11-01 11:03 and what's the point/roadmap? 2012-11-01 11:03 sure 2012-11-01 11:03 let's get drunk now 2012-11-01 11:03 a is b because b is a 2012-11-01 11:03 self-referential as in any good religion, no? :-) 2012-11-01 11:03 :) 2012-11-01 11:04 so looks like forh-code when you write assembly code. they have a color-forth based "IDE" that allows you to input (a subset of) color-forth code that's turned into binary code for the GA144. They even have an emulator etc. 2012-11-01 11:04 dvdk: come on you are real? what is the real thing one can expect out of this - today or tomorrow? 2012-11-01 11:04 or it just leads nowhere? 2012-11-01 11:05 well, self-referential sure. it's like a second evolution that's not using Carbon but Silicon. Kind of an alternate eco-system. 2012-11-01 11:05 wolfspra2l has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 11:05 lots of closed designs around that, though 2012-11-01 11:05 ok but is that stuff even open source? 2012-11-01 11:06 the okad 'sources' are not published? 2012-11-01 11:06 wolfspra2l: all that philosophy is pre-FSF I think :) 2012-11-01 11:06 greenarraychips.com software downloads are "unless specifically noted otherwise" only allowed to run on their chips 2012-11-01 11:06 why would I even bother with the dysfunctions of those guys... and try to find some crazy couple dozen "lines" of source codes that maybe can write FAT floppy sectors? 2012-11-01 11:07 I don't get it :-) I just don't... 2012-11-01 11:07 colorforth is, the GA144 is pretty well documented. but programming it feels like programming an FPGA by manually filling LUTs and setting the routing matrix. 2012-11-01 11:07 haha 2012-11-01 11:07 do you have one or programmed it? 2012-11-01 11:07 (like 123 bytes ram per core is somewhat like a bug logic slice :) 2012-11-01 11:07 s/123/128/ 2012-11-01 11:07 dvdk meant: "(like 128 bytes ram per core is somewhat like a bug logic slice :)" 2012-11-01 11:07 yes 2012-11-01 11:08 dvdk: what is a good colorforth download url? 2012-11-01 11:08 no, but I read about guys who did program, I read some programs and I tinkered around with colorforth (http://mosquito.dyndns.tv/opensvn/free/trunk/forth/glcolorforth/) 2012-11-01 11:08 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 11:08 http://www.colorforth.com/install.htm '2001 version' 2012-11-01 11:09 viric: *download* 2012-11-01 11:09 in that world, there's a lot of *talk* about download, not so many things you can actually download 2012-11-01 11:09 * wolfspra2l checking david's link... 2012-11-01 11:09 no, on linux try my version. chuck's version only runs on bare (old) hardware from floppy, other linux ports have been abandoned 2012-11-01 11:09 haha 2012-11-01 11:09 colorforth... 2012-11-01 11:09 it seems for me that everyone who uses forth becomes a little bit brain-damaged 2012-11-01 11:09 so I had to do some hacking to make it compile&link on 64-bit linux. 2012-11-01 11:09 e.g. TeX 2012-11-01 11:09 it's absolutely awesome 2012-11-01 11:09 but so freaking alien 2012-11-01 11:10 whitequark: I've used a bit of forth, but got out on time ;) 2012-11-01 11:10 wolfspra2l: you may want to try to download the official GA144 SDK. That's build around a much newer non-public domain version of colorforth. It even has QWERTY layout and can run from within windodws :) 2012-11-01 11:10 (but never tried it) 2012-11-01 11:10 I've a friend that wrote parts of retroforth... (clisp implementation, among others) 2012-11-01 11:11 but then I think you'd still waste your time. 2012-11-01 11:11 "non-public domain" what does that mean? 2012-11-01 11:11 dvdk: qwerty support? does it require an XT keyboard? :) 2012-11-01 11:11 viric: it's an interesting _concept_ indeed. I enjoyed reading about a "functional Forth" implementation 2012-11-01 11:11 viric: but if you're going to use it in production you're probably insane 2012-11-01 11:11 wolfspraul: what i wanted to say: colorforth=public domain, GA144 SDK = closed source 2012-11-01 11:11 ah then why would I bother :-) 2012-11-01 11:11 but both based on color-forth, where GA144 SDK is much much newer 2012-11-01 11:11 whitequark: I always thought of Forth as a language for programming стиральные машины 2012-11-01 11:11 there must be thousands of one-off proprietary this-and-that chips/archs in the world 2012-11-01 11:12 among those that would be one of the stupidest to explore, most likely 2012-11-01 11:12 but your link is great, finally 2012-11-01 11:12 wolfspra2l: work better for an antropologist, I think 2012-11-01 11:12 thanks! 2012-11-01 11:12 those few files look like something real, and I know there is probably not much real in all this 2012-11-01 11:12 so this must be it! :-) 2012-11-01 11:13 viric: hehe 2012-11-01 11:13 you're not too far off, it's used in PostScript printers 2012-11-01 11:13 as PS is basically forth 2012-11-01 11:13 dvdk: do you think the ga144 has much future? 2012-11-01 11:13 wolfspra2l: I wouldn't dismiss thit as stupid. It's just alien to what we're used to deal with. As i said, an alternative eco-system that's incompatible to ours. 2012-11-01 11:14 yes but wants to be incompatible too 2012-11-01 11:14 well, all those stack based things... RPN in calculators, forth, ... even jvm is a similar thing. 2012-11-01 11:14 wolfspra2l: ask the marsians (or alpha centaurians) about GA144's future 2012-11-01 11:14 incompatible to anything that exists today or may exist in the future 2012-11-01 11:15 and that's where it gets strange 2012-11-01 11:15 at which point I reserve my right to just not care anymore... 2012-11-01 11:15 so the fact that this tech serves very few/no real people is almost by design 2012-11-01 11:15 wolfspra2l: a niche is a niche. 2012-11-01 11:15 dvdk: there are also the hardware java virtual machines (no more virtual?), or the lisp-on-hardware, ... there are plenty of hw/sw places far from c-programmers. :) 2012-11-01 11:15 dvdk: yes :-) and that's an extreme one :-) 2012-11-01 11:16 as I said, think of it as silicon-based life. it just can.t thrive on earth, and ther won't be a place wher it can be a competitor to us carbon-based critters 2012-11-01 11:17 do you know anyone who has one of those ga144 boards or is programming on it? 2012-11-01 11:17 are any 'source codes' of such software being published anywhere? 2012-11-01 11:17 god forbid on something as ... 2012-11-01 11:17 I hardly dare to say it 2012-11-01 11:17 ... github 2012-11-01 11:17 ? :-) 2012-11-01 11:17 dvdk: since those chips have been released years ago... there should be some writings about their impact, is there? 2012-11-01 11:17 yes. not personally. a few on comp.lang.forth usegroup write about it. 2012-11-01 11:18 dvdk: remove the dates from comp.lang.forth random posts, and try to guess the decade. 2012-11-01 11:19 dvdk, wolfspra2l: http://prog21.dadgum.com/128.html 2012-11-01 11:20 I would be interested in what software runs on them, and source code of that of course 2012-11-01 11:20 dvdk: thanks a lot for your insight and source link! 2012-11-01 11:20 that boosted the level of what is 'real' by about a factor of 10 for me :-) 2012-11-01 11:20 I always remember that post, when I see forth reviving again in some room. :) 2012-11-01 11:20 wolfspra2l: there's a colorforth google-group i just found out. 2012-11-01 11:23 yes but I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't this vibrant OKAD github community somewhere, with dozens of people contributing and taping-out last-gen chips etc. 2012-11-01 11:24 which of course there isn't, so I'm done :-) 2012-11-01 11:25 I have a pretty clear idea/imagination of what that OKAD thing actually is/was 2012-11-01 11:26 viric: no, the original color-forth implements kind of a dvorak-layout that uses only about 30 keys, other functions are activated by cycling layouts. 2012-11-01 11:27 ah, and it's not ASCII, it's a proprietary 64-char character set that's usually huffman-compressed in chunks of 32-bit words 2012-11-01 11:27 AFAIR the original version even didn't have separate 'i' and '1' glyphs. why bother when they *look* the same :) 2012-11-01 11:27 I shall continue with toped... 2012-11-01 11:27 s/glyphs/charcodes/ 2012-11-01 11:27 dvdk meant: "AFAIR the original version even didn't have separate 'i' and '1' charcodes. why bother when they *look* the same :)" 2012-11-01 11:27 again, thanks a lot for the feedback! that is really hard in that scene to find anything that relates to something real... 2012-11-01 11:27 it just makes you search harder and harder 2012-11-01 11:28 no prob. 2012-11-01 11:28 a lot of people are excitedly waiting for fpgatools to become less vaporwareish 2012-11-01 11:29 , btw 2012-11-01 11:33 dvdk: haha typing machines had 'l' and '1' the same, not 'i' and '1'. :) 2012-11-01 11:34 dvdk: why think of another character-number coding, if we already have EBCDIC? 2012-11-01 11:35 btw, I always wanted to program the Saturn chips of HP 48, that I heard had 20-bit words with 5-bit nibbles. 2012-11-01 11:39 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 11:42 wolfspra2l has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2012-11-01 11:46 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 11:46 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 11:49 viric: pre-FSF or pre-gnu (those with the horns) ? :) 2012-11-01 11:52 I think the gnu with horns was first though, yes. :) 2012-11-01 11:53 yes fpgatools has a steep curve now 2012-11-01 11:53 did some more directional wires, vertical and horizontal 2012-11-01 11:53 then lots more clock routing, bufgmux, and and and 2012-11-01 11:53 now the diagonal ones 2012-11-01 11:53 :-) 2012-11-01 11:54 dvdk: is there software for the ga144 that is open source/published anywhere? 2012-11-01 11:54 wolfspra1l: do you mean dev-kit or software running *on* the GA144 2012-11-01 11:56 here is e.g. a md5 hash algorithm implementation for GA144. 2012-11-01 11:56 http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/greg/AN001-120510-MD5.pdf 2012-11-01 11:56 you'll see it's more FPGA-like than CPU-like 2012-11-01 12:00 wolfspra1l: colorforth and github ... wouldn't they have their own revision control system, completely alien to anything we know ? and of course, not communicating via TCP/IP. maybe some highly efficient DIY protocol over 300 bps modems, to go with the floppies. 2012-11-01 12:02 hmm. an application note. implementing a well-known hash (nothing DIY). i smell heresy :) 2012-11-01 12:02 wolfspra1l: should blinking_led.c already work? 2012-11-01 12:02 wpwrak: what makes you think they use a RCS? 2012-11-01 12:03 wpwrak: they have no text-file format that you can read, so you can only commit thnem as binary blobs 2012-11-01 12:03 so that means yes 2012-11-01 12:03 I also read that htey think about doing version control from within colorforth 2012-11-01 12:04 wpwrak: about the app-note: don't worry it's the only GA144 app-node of it's kind :) 2012-11-01 12:05 i think they learned their lesson from the internet. remember how great and full of freedom it was before big business and governments noticed it ? now that would be a way to make sure those old enemies never even get close :) 2012-11-01 12:05 if even nodejs could become popular, I think Forth could achieve something similar, once mastering the art of pastel-color CSS in Helvetica web pages. 2012-11-01 12:08 pastel colors and helvetica are the most determining factors to a broad success of a project, I think. :) 2012-11-01 12:08 - I feel a bit too nihilist today 2012-11-01 12:10 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2012-11-01 12:11 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 12:15 pabs3 has quit [Quit: Don't rest until all the world is paved in moss and greenery.] 2012-11-01 12:17 and I always though blink tags were the way to success. damm, had it wrong all these years, but that may explain why my projects never took off ;) 2012-11-01 12:17 pabs3 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 12:24 larsc: you mean you didn't put enough emphasis on obscurity and the arcane ? 2012-11-01 12:26 wpwrak: I sure did! The projects are hidden 5 paths deep on a obscure domain name. And I think I only gave the link to a handful of people 2012-11-01 12:26 Oh and the page only renders correct with firefox 0.97-0.99 2012-11-01 12:28 you put it on the web ? i keep my stuff on a mailbox, only accessible via direct dial-in. 2012-11-01 12:28 download via my own enhanced (incompatible) variant of kermit. 2012-11-01 12:29 LunaVorax_ is now known as LunaVorax 2012-11-01 12:29 _I_ put it on the web, indeed. 2012-11-01 12:43 dvdk: sorry was away and lots of disconnects. do you think it may make sense to try to run the mini-cpu from inside the g144 in an fpga? 2012-11-01 12:43 I think the instruction set is documented - but is it usable for anything at all? 2012-11-01 12:44 I am looking for some small test-'cores' for fpgatools, and a big cpu like lm32/openrisc may still be too much for me at the beginning 2012-11-01 12:44 do you have any experience with that cpu, can you recommend it at least for further study? 2012-11-01 12:45 how about making your own mini-cpu ? the basics are very simple. 2012-11-01 12:46 lindi- no, not working yet 2012-11-01 12:46 lots of detours, a little depressing but I try to just steer right through 2012-11-01 12:46 I have to spend more time around the clocking stuff first 2012-11-01 12:46 I'm a little anti-forth here, I guess. if there is something I can reuse, why not reuse it? 2012-11-01 12:46 LunaVorax has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 12:47 :-) 2012-11-01 12:47 any "real-life" core is likely to be a lot more complex than the minimum you need for demonstration purposes. 2012-11-01 12:48 maybe use the navre core 2012-11-01 12:49 kristoffer has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 2012-11-01 12:49 of course, the first question should be what this core would actually be expected to do. blink a led ? control a robot ? run linux ? 2012-11-01 12:50 how about 'do something' 2012-11-01 12:50 it doesn't matter that much if the goal is to show that fpgatools is working 2012-11-01 12:51 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 12:53 sounds like a case for a core with two registers, maybe 8 bit word size. 8+something instruction size. harvard arch. 2012-11-01 12:57 or maybe accumulator plus register array is easier 2012-11-01 12:58 add Ri: A = A+Ri 2012-11-01 12:58 anything good about MISC? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_instruction_set_computer ? 2012-11-01 12:58 same for and, or, xor. 2012-11-01 12:59 or maybe I search the other way round and look for interesting/new llvm backends, since I don't want to be stuck with something where no sw runs... 2012-11-01 12:59 mmh, that would put you into the feature-rich core segment 2012-11-01 13:00 if you;re looking for something that just gets "something" done, but you have to program it in assembler, then you can make a super-simplistic architecture 2012-11-01 13:15 jluis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 13:15 wolfspraul: just coming back from lunch. 2012-11-01 13:15 wolfspraul: the GA144's mini CPU is an asynchronous design: no clock. don't think this will easily port to an FPGA. 2012-11-01 13:16 However, there is a core that follows very similar design ideas, developed by a german forther. The B16 core, with a even smaller "b16-mini" version 2012-11-01 13:16 http://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html 2012-11-01 13:17 it's GPL. Uses a very similar, highly efficient instruction packing that allows to build large programs with very little instruction RAM 2012-11-01 13:18 originally this was developed for a real ASIC for the company Bernd was working for, then the FPGA version open-sourced. The documentation describes various ASIC-specific optimizations like replacing registers with latches. 2012-11-01 13:19 the compiler is written in Gforth, and the assembly code reads like normal forth code (i.e. not color-forth, and much saner) 2012-11-01 13:21 there is an even simpler Stack-based core called J1, but it's a 32-bit architecture and needs moer instruction RAM: 2012-11-01 13:21 http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/fpga-j1.html 2012-11-01 13:21 it's open source, and the forth-written software stack for this thing supports even tcp/ip 2012-11-01 13:22 this may be easier to work with than B16, architecture is simpler. 2012-11-01 13:22 no instruction decoder at all, instruction word directly switching RTL data flow 2012-11-01 13:23 oops, mistake, J1 is also a 16-bit CPU just like B16 2012-11-01 13:24 wolfspraul: are you in Germany near the end of the year? 2012-11-01 13:26 great links, thanks! 2012-11-01 13:26 which of those is a good starting point for getting whatever 'other' software to run? 2012-11-01 13:27 why would an asynchronous cpu design not work in an fpga? 2012-11-01 13:27 jluis has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 13:29 because it has plenty of D flip flops and global clock networks which would go unused, resulting in a quite suboptimal design 2012-11-01 13:31 and the vendor software doesn't have good support for asynchronous stuff 2012-11-01 13:33 wolfspraul: what's the objective for implementing a core ? it sounds like a bit of a detour to me, at least as far as gaining knowledge is concerned. 2012-11-01 13:34 oh sure, no worries. I am not doing this now. the point is to guide me a bit through the really large amount of features in the fpga 2012-11-01 13:34 without focus, I can spend years there 2012-11-01 13:34 I am implementing the blinking led now :-) 2012-11-01 13:35 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 13:35 (years) hmm, sounds bad ... in an exciting way :) 2012-11-01 13:36 well, software is never done 2012-11-01 13:36 it can only become obsolete 2012-11-01 13:37 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-11-01 13:37 larsc: luckily gnu hello is maintained to avoid becoming obsolete. 2012-11-01 13:37 as the links from david show there may well be some nice & tiny experimental cores out there 2012-11-01 13:37 yeah, the software life-cycle. planning (optional), first prototype, alpha/beta version (repeat as many times as necessary), abandonment. 2012-11-01 13:38 that may be a better first step or focus generator at some point than a larger core 2012-11-01 13:38 Hoolxi has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 13:38 may 2012-11-01 13:39 I'm just happy I can read a bit through those cores and think 2012-11-01 13:54 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-11-01 13:57 Hoolxi has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2012-11-01 14:02 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-11-01 14:14