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2012-10-22 09:03 <xiangfu> (find a more precise fab) yes. totally agree. for fast, I just find random one in taobao. then they send back the PCBs in 3 days.
2012-10-22 09:03 <xiangfu> (a U-shaped ground trace) yes. I also notice that after I sent out those gerber files.
2012-10-22 09:04 <xiangfu> (one silo cap ) I ignore all those caps in first try. :-)
2012-10-22 09:05 <xiangfu> the first try has totally messed. but I learn quiet some on KiCAD, gerber files, making PCB etc.
2012-10-22 09:06 <xiangfu> the bad news is I never success with oven.
2012-10-22 09:09 <xiangfu> I made a working board today with hot air.(2 times hot air)
2012-10-22 09:09 <xiangfu> after burned 7 PCBs and 2 chips. :-)
2012-10-22 09:23 <kyak> xiangfu: hi! i guess qt4 still didn't build on buildhost?
2012-10-22 09:23 <xiangfu> kyak, checking...
2012-10-22 09:24 <xiangfu> kyak, great. the qt4 stuff compile fine now.
2012-10-22 09:24 <xiangfu> checkout here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.full_system/bin/xburst/packages/
2012-10-22 09:25 <xiangfu> kyak, sorry for late reply. :) we have 17 qt4 package now.
2012-10-22 09:27 <xiangfu> kyak, I think I will update the images and packages, just starting a continue build
2012-10-22 09:45 <kyak> xiangfu: yeah, it makes sense to re-release the image, how do you think?
2012-10-22 09:47 <xiangfu> yes. agree.
2012-10-22 09:47 <xiangfu> building now.
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2012-10-22 13:36 <wpwrak> xiangfu: (working board) wow, that's great. congratulations !
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2012-10-22 13:59 <xiangfu> wpwrak, I can load configure bits file to that board. get some result from the firmware. :)
2012-10-22 14:02 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu: qi_lb60: add ks7010 support (release_2012-10-11) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/3f62494
2012-10-22 14:02 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu: qi_lb60: add ks7010 support (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/c3be281
2012-10-22 14:31 <wpwrak> xiangfu: not a bad result at all. i thought it would take you a lot longer to get something that works. did you only use hot air or also heat from the bottom ?
2012-10-22 14:34 <xiangfu> wpwrak, I heat the pcb and chip in oven for ~3 minutes. then use hot air on top.
2012-10-22 14:35 <xiangfu> I set the hot air to ~350C.
2012-10-22 14:35 <xiangfu> ~3 minutes hot air on top of chip.
2012-10-22 14:38 <xiangfu> wpwrak, oven: no matter what high temperature I set, the TIN only get soft. it doesn't reflow at all,
2012-10-22 14:39 <xiangfu> if I stick >220C for more then 2 mins. the PCB start burn. :)
2012-10-22 14:39 <xiangfu> TIN: I mean the tin ball of the chip.
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2012-10-22 14:44 <larsc> xiangfu: with flames and everything?
2012-10-22 14:45 <xiangfu> larsc, the PCB starts to change color(black). and smoke come out.
2012-10-22 14:46 <xiangfu> larsc, http://downloads.openmobilefree.net/tmp/IMG_1393.JPG <-- checkout.
2012-10-22 14:50 <viric> what is a 'tin ball'?
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2012-10-22 14:58 <larsc> xiangfu: nice toast ;)
2012-10-22 15:01 <larsc> viric: the small dots on the back of the chip
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2012-10-22 15:01 <viric> mh back is where text is, no?
2012-10-22 15:01 <viric> or that is front?
2012-10-22 15:02 <larsc> I'd call it front
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2012-10-22 15:04 <viric> ah ok :)
2012-10-22 15:04 <viric> you are not imaging chips as bugs then
2012-10-22 15:04 <viric> you mean the balls on the belly of the chip ;)
2012-10-22 15:05 <whitequark> xiangfu: uh oh
2012-10-22 15:05 <whitequark> are you trying to use pb-free solder? :)
2012-10-22 15:08 <xiangfu> whitequark, you mean the solder on the PCB?
2012-10-22 15:12 <xiangfu> viric, yes. what is the correct name of those 'tin ball'? :)
2012-10-22 15:17 <wpwrak> just "balls"
2012-10-22 15:18 <wpwrak> and chips don't normally have "front" and "back" but "top" and "bottom"
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2012-10-22 15:18 <whitequark> xiangfu: both on pcb and on the chip
2012-10-22 15:18 <wpwrak> xiangfu: using the oven to pre-heat is an interesting variation
2012-10-22 15:20 <viric> oh
2012-10-22 15:20 <viric> I thought that 'tin' was a metal closer to iron
2012-10-22 15:20 <xiangfu> whitequark, the chip is pb-free. the PCB I don't know. some random fab.
2012-10-22 15:20 <viric> as in 'tin can'
2012-10-22 15:20 <whitequark> pb-free solder seriously sucks if you don't have an oven with programmable profile
2012-10-22 15:20 <viric> But then I looked at the dictionary for the english word of the solder soft metal, and I discovered it's tin :)
2012-10-22 15:21 <whitequark> Í'd say that you can preheat the PCB at 170, or maybe 180 deg almost continuously
2012-10-22 15:21 <whitequark> if you go higher, it'll fry sooner or later
2012-10-22 15:21 <viric> whitequark: there comes into play the openPID?
2012-10-22 15:21 <whitequark> so, I preheat it to 180 and then apply the heat gun on top
2012-10-22 15:21 <whitequark> set to 320
2012-10-22 15:21 <whitequark> for 20 seconds and no more
2012-10-22 15:22 <whitequark> works very good on LQFP, but might not work so good on BGA
2012-10-22 15:22 <wpwrak> viric: maybe you can recycle tin cans in a pinch. heat them on the stove until they melt, add lead to lower the melting point, stir well, voila, kitchen-made solder :)
2012-10-22 15:22 <viric> you don't cook in that oven later, right?
2012-10-22 15:22 <whitequark> viric: haha, indeed
2012-10-22 15:22 <whitequark> heavy metals are quite poisonous
2012-10-22 15:22 <viric> good :)
2012-10-22 15:22 <whitequark> well I don't have one yet
2012-10-22 15:23 <whitequark> didn't have much time lately.
2012-10-22 15:23 <xiangfu> whitequark, thanks for share.
2012-10-22 15:23 <whitequark> actually, I have yet to turn on my M1 for the first time :/
2012-10-22 15:23 <xiangfu> whitequark, then I also have to use heat gun from now on.
2012-10-22 15:24 <whitequark> xiangfu: probably. it takes some practice, but after twenty fried pcbs/chips or so I was able to do it correctly each time
2012-10-22 15:24 <wpwrak> whitequark: why even bother with the oven for LQFP ? they're trivial with a soldering iron
2012-10-22 15:25 <whitequark> wpwrak: naw, I used the heat gun from the bottom for preheating and top for actual soldering
2012-10-22 15:25 <whitequark> for both desoldering and soldering
2012-10-22 15:25 <xiangfu> whitequark, (it takes some practice). I already fired 7 pcbs and 2 chips. I still need 10 burn chips class. :-)
2012-10-22 15:25 <whitequark> wpwrak: fine-pitch lqfps aren't easy
2012-10-22 15:25 <wpwrak> ok, desoldering is a different story
2012-10-22 15:25 <whitequark> .5 mm ones for example
2012-10-22 15:26 <whitequark> I find it way easier to do this:
2012-10-22 15:26 <whitequark> 1. cover each pad with an appropriate amount of tin with the iron and lots of RMA flux
2012-10-22 15:26 <whitequark> relying on surface tension forces here
2012-10-22 15:27 <whitequark> 2. more flux, place the chip correctly, apply heat gun and push it _very_ gently
2012-10-22 15:28 <whitequark> 3. if the thingy doesn't work, probably due to not heating it enough, use _dry_ iron on every pin again.
2012-10-22 15:28 <wpwrak> i wouldn't put a lot of tin on the pads. else you have to maintain heat for a long time to make sure all pins actually sink into the solder
2012-10-22 15:28 <whitequark> wpwrak: you cannot actually place "a lot" of tin on pads
2012-10-22 15:28 <wpwrak> well, in the Z direction :)
2012-10-22 15:28 <whitequark> there's an amount it will absorb, and it will try very hard to get this exact amount
2012-10-22 15:29 <whitequark> you obviously need to have soldering mask, and the pads should be quite small
2012-10-22 15:29 <wpwrak> i keep my tin flat (microns). then lots of water soluble flux (less messy than RMA) and always a "wet" iron
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2012-10-22 15:29 <whitequark> wpwrak: with wet iron, I tend to get a lot of solder bridges
2012-10-22 15:30 <wpwrak> ah, don't have solder mask in my diy boards. that would make things too easy :)
2012-10-22 15:30 <whitequark> which are incredibly hard to remove without ruining the pcb
2012-10-22 15:30 <wpwrak> apply flux and "paint" over the pins, away from the chip. surface tension will take care of the bridges
2012-10-22 15:30 * xiangfu will read logs tomorrow. have to sleep.
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2012-10-22 15:30 <whitequark> as per solder mask, I find it comparable by cost to just purchase the pcbs at fab
2012-10-22 15:31 <whitequark> when you include the cost of my time spent fixing everything which could be just avoided by having a mask, not drilling anything, not having to remake the PCBs, etc.
2012-10-22 15:31 <wpwrak> ah yes, drilling is a pain
2012-10-22 15:31 * wpwrak <3 his cnc mill ;)
2012-10-22 15:32 <whitequark> drilling is a huge PITA, positioning can be hard, chemical processes are not health-friendly and not easy either
2012-10-22 15:32 <whitequark> unless you're doing lots of simple boards and need really low cost and small turnaround time, I wouldn't really recommend the laser printer process
2012-10-22 15:33 <wpwrak> for me it's the turnaround
2012-10-22 15:33 <wpwrak> and yes, i try to keep them small
2012-10-22 15:33 <whitequark> you could pay $30 for a moderately complex board and have it in 3 days here in Russia
2012-10-22 15:33 <whitequark> with a russian fab
2012-10-22 15:33 <whitequark> moderately complex = 2/4 layer, mask, drilling
2012-10-22 15:34 <whitequark> under 10x10cm
2012-10-22 15:34 <whitequark> well maybe $50. I mean, per batch of 10.
2012-10-22 15:35 <wpwrak> so $50 for 10 boards or for each of that batch ?
2012-10-22 15:35 <whitequark> for 10
2012-10-22 15:35 <wpwrak> ok, those are good prices
2012-10-22 15:36 <whitequark> hm, let me make sure I'm saying the correct price
2012-10-22 15:37 <whitequark> well no, I was not entirely correct.
2012-10-22 15:37 <whitequark> 2 layers, mask, silkscreen on both sides: $60 preparation, $12 per dm², 3 days.
2012-10-22 15:39 <wpwrak> so $180 for the batch. and you have to wait :) but yes, if you actually need ten boards, it's more convenient. i tend to make two only identical boards at a time.
2012-10-22 15:40 <wpwrak> then the next generation learns from my mistakes :)
2012-10-22 15:41 <whitequark> +$10 delivery, or you could pick it up yourself
2012-10-22 15:42 <whitequark> well yeah, there's a chinese fab which lets you have 10 boards less than 10x10cm for $25 total
2012-10-22 15:42 <whitequark> plus delivery
2012-10-22 15:43 <whitequark> if you use anything except airmail, it'll have comparable ETA and will be at least thrice cheaper
2012-10-22 15:44 <whitequark> they have some other nice offers like 4 layer 5x5 for $65, or 10x10 for $100
2012-10-22 15:44 <whitequark> which is very competitive to other fabs I've seen
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2012-10-22 21:09 <LunaVorax> Hello!
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2012-10-22 21:38 <qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Hide the 'params' option from the user on the contextual menu (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/0fc6ac6
2012-10-22 21:38 <qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Use the '%f' token to insert the selected file on the params. (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/e7e21b4
2012-10-22 21:38 <qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Build file extensions filter from the MIME types present on the OPK (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/5f1cff6
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2012-10-22 23:48 <pcercuei> Wayland 1.0 released