2012-10-21 00:27 <whitequark> roh: hey, do you recall our discussion about smartphones? I've finally determined that for myself
2012-10-21 00:27 <whitequark> if, and only if, you use your smartphone like a dumbphone, it will easily live for a week. I just confirmed that.
2012-10-21 00:27 <whitequark> the problem is, why the hell would you want to do that if you have a smartphone.
2012-10-21 00:31 * kristianpaul is using dumbphones since 2000
2012-10-21 00:33 <kristianpaul> and at that time a palm m100 ( the PDA thing)
2012-10-21 00:34 <kristianpaul> and my 1.2M camera of course :)
2012-10-21 00:34 <whitequark> kristianpaul: it's a nice thing to have one gadget which works as a music player + gps navigation device + a camera (SGS2 has a camera which is on par with cheap "discrete" ones) + a dumbphone.
2012-10-21 00:35 <whitequark> not to mention occasional web browsing, through it's non-vital.
2012-10-21 00:36 <whitequark> the point is, ARMs _are_ energy-hungry, and they can convert electricity to heat very fast. they just sleep very well.
2012-10-21 00:36 <kristianpaul> same reason i dont buy swiss knife...
2012-10-21 00:37 <kristianpaul> so yes you could leave with it, just need to take the desition
2012-10-21 00:37 <kristianpaul> same reason you dont reply i guess al your mail in your smartphone
2012-10-21 00:37 <kristianpaul> i hope you dont :)
2012-10-21 00:38 <whitequark> well, do you keep a knife, screwdriver set, pliers, etc with yourself at all times?
2012-10-21 00:38 <whitequark> I need gps once in a month, when I'm lost, and camera maybe once a week, and so on
2012-10-21 00:39 <whitequark> I simply don't have the brainpower to remember if I will need a particular function at a particular day
2012-10-21 00:39 <whitequark> heck, it was hard enough to remember not to forget the phone itself at home.
2012-10-21 00:40 <whitequark> kristianpaul: I would reply to a sizable part of my mail on my smartphone, if not for the virtual keyboard. Unfortunately no one makes good physical keyboards now
2012-10-21 00:40 <whitequark> which is kinda disappointing, especially given the fact that Android has _very_ good support for keyboard and mice
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2012-10-21 01:41 <wpwrak> the world clearly needs new input devices. how about position-of-the-tongue for picking a key ? swallow to enter, burp to delete.
2012-10-21 01:43 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: here, dumbphones since around 1996. they get the job done, what more can you ask for ? :)
2012-10-21 02:30 <whitequark> wpwrak: touchscreens are great for lots of things
2012-10-21 02:30 <whitequark> I'd say for more things you would like to do with a smartphone, except writing text.
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2012-10-21 03:32 * xiangfu try to use the oven for soldering the chip now
2012-10-21 03:32 <xiangfu> the 4 steps will be:
2012-10-21 03:32 <xiangfu>     Set to 90C for 3 minutes to preheat
2012-10-21 03:32 <xiangfu>     Set to 150C for 1 minute for thermal soak.
2012-10-21 03:32 <xiangfu>     Turn off oven, open door, and cool to ambient with room air
2012-10-21 03:32 <xiangfu>     Set to 210C for 1 minute for reflow. This results in a Tal of about 15 seconds.
2012-10-21 03:33 <xiangfu> base on azonenberg's blog
2012-10-21 03:33 <wolfspraul> wow, oven!
2012-10-21 03:34 <wolfspraul> you got a random cheap chinese mini-oven? how much did you pay?
2012-10-21 03:35 <xiangfu> no. I buy a ACA oven. 270RMB.
2012-10-21 03:35 <xiangfu> it have 4 heating pipes.
2012-10-21 03:36 <xiangfu> <250RMB. all is 2 heating pipes.
2012-10-21 03:37 <xiangfu> this one: http://www.360buy.com/product/150841.html
2012-10-21 03:38 <wolfspraul> ACA?
2012-10-21 03:38 <xiangfu> wolfspraul, I  already burned a ftg256 chip by using hot air :(
2012-10-21 03:38 <wolfspraul> great
2012-10-21 03:38 <wolfspraul> speed up your discoveries :-)
2012-10-21 03:38 <wolfspraul> buy another 10 of them
2012-10-21 03:39 <wolfspraul> that's why we work with a 7 USD chip now, not a 70 USD chip...
2012-10-21 03:39 <wolfspraul> you should just try in series right away, different durations etc.
2012-10-21 03:40 <wolfspraul> unless the results are extremely obvious (smelly), you probably need 2 or 3 of the better attempts to understand yield issues
2012-10-21 03:40 <wolfspraul> anyway, have fun! :-)
2012-10-21 03:40 <wolfspraul> a little Sunday cooking
2012-10-21 03:40 <wolfspraul> chip brunch
2012-10-21 03:40 <wolfspraul> watch the fumes btw
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2012-10-21 03:41 <wolfspraul> if possible do this near a big and open window, ideally outside but maybe that's difficult
2012-10-21 03:41 <xiangfu> I will try to use the broken chip first.
2012-10-21 03:41 <wolfspraul> especially when you burn a lot you may create a lot of fumes
2012-10-21 03:41 <xiangfu> today is cold. I goto one small room. close the door. open the window. :)
2012-10-21 03:42 <wolfspraul> yes good
2012-10-21 03:42 <wolfspraul> those fumes can be really bad
2012-10-21 03:42 <xiangfu> yes.
2012-10-21 03:42 <wolfspraul> especially if you do one experiment after another, and day after day
2012-10-21 03:42 <xiangfu> yes.
2012-10-21 03:43 <wolfspraul> I just looked out my window... made me thinking whether OPENING the window is such a good idea :-)
2012-10-21 03:43 <wolfspraul> but ok...
2012-10-21 03:43 <wolfspraul> putting the typical Beijing air aside, it's still true :-)
2012-10-21 03:43 <xiangfu> :-)
2012-10-21 03:43 <xiangfu> be back in 10 mins. try my first chip-cooking. :)
2012-10-21 03:43 <wolfspraul> good luck
2012-10-21 04:08 <xiangfu> totally failed. http://downloads.openmobilefree.net/tmp/IMG_1393.JPG
2012-10-21 04:09 <xiangfu> I use hot air on left one.
2012-10-21 04:09 <xiangfu> use oven on right one.
2012-10-21 04:12 <wolfspraul> he
2012-10-21 04:13 <wolfspraul> failed = the soldering didn't happen?
2012-10-21 04:13 <wolfspraul> the right one looks nicely toasted though :-)
2012-10-21 04:13 <wolfspraul> buy more chips and boards, maybe 20 or so
2012-10-21 04:13 <xiangfu> (failed = the soldering didn't happen?) yes.
2012-10-21 04:14 <xiangfu> I guess I miss up the temperature.
2012-10-21 04:14 <wolfspraul> yes
2012-10-21 04:15 <wolfspraul> not sure how accurate the setting is, or to reach/hold it etc.
2012-10-21 04:15 <wolfspraul> difficult
2012-10-21 04:15 <wolfspraul> a precise measuring is also difficult
2012-10-21 04:15 <wolfspraul> too bad you can't just program the whole world
2012-10-21 04:15 <wolfspraul> room.set_temp(25.00)
2012-10-21 04:16 <wolfspraul> maybe too warm
2012-10-21 04:16 <wolfspraul> room.set_temp(19.50)
2012-10-21 04:16 <xiangfu> :)
2012-10-21 04:16 <wolfspraul> well
2012-10-21 04:17 <wolfspraul> of course a chinese heating computer would immediately and happily return with "19.5000 exactly reached, have a nice day"
2012-10-21 04:22 <xiangfu> exactly.
2012-10-21 04:22 <xiangfu> I made 10 of those PCB. in parallel. I try to improve the pcb design. I found it's really not easy route more wires in 2 layers.
2012-10-21 04:23 <xiangfu> the youtube or other example videos/documents  are all simple chips. simple design.
2012-10-21 04:23 <xiangfu> the azonenberg
2012-10-21 04:24 <xiangfu> the azonenberg's board is good reference for learning.
2012-10-21 04:24 <xiangfu> bbl, lunch time.
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2012-10-21 04:52 <wolfspraul> enjoy
2012-10-21 04:52 <wolfspraul> imagine those would be sample chips from our own chip design
2012-10-21 04:53 <wolfspraul> let's say we got 10, after waiting for 2 months
2012-10-21 04:53 <wolfspraul> that would be painful to burn! :-)
2012-10-21 04:53 <wolfspraul> by then we better have figured this out... :-)
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2012-10-21 08:19 <wpwrak> hmm, that pcb's problems still start a long way before the soldering ...
2012-10-21 08:20 <wpwrak> at least with a pcb (as opposed to a ball of wires) it's easier to see what's wrong :)
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2012-10-21 09:00 <wpwrak> xiangfu: nicely cooked pcb :)
2012-10-21 09:02 <wpwrak> the silk screen varies quite a bit with respect to the copper. you'll probably have to find a more precise fab when you get to doing more serious things.
2012-10-21 09:06 <wpwrak> about the layout: you can make your life easier by routing ground outside the chip, not under it. e.g., if you make a U-shaped ground trace (include connectors and oscillator), then you need only relatively short traces that go under the chip. this lowers the risk of make unintended contacts.
2012-10-21 09:07 <wpwrak> then, you only have one silo cap at the power connector, but no bypass caps at the fpga. the longest distance between ground and cap is about 50 mm, which is a bit excessive.
2012-10-21 09:11 <wpwrak> the number of connections to power is also suspicious. there should be more of them.
2012-10-21 09:12 <wpwrak> and another one: P1 ground should connect to P2 ground via a trace, not through the chip.
2012-10-21 09:14 <wpwrak> the aspect ratio (hole to ring diameter) of the holes for the connectors seems quite small, especially if we consider that your fab is not very precise. maybe make it a bit bigger.
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2012-10-21 10:44 <LunaVorax> Hello!
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2012-10-21 10:48 <Intro> hi
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2012-10-21 10:49 <Intro> hi gargom
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2012-10-21 10:50 <gargon> intro: hi
2012-10-21 10:51 <gargon> if someone interested, I found an interesting article about chip/pcb cooking with a toaster like appliance: http://avr.tavir.hu/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=118
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2012-10-21 12:31 <wpwrak> i like the triac :) the rest of the circuit seems over-engineered.
2012-10-21 12:32 <wpwrak> why not use a cheap AVR with V-USB. that solves: 1) power supply, 2) controls, 3) indicators, 4) communication with modern hosts.
2012-10-21 12:34 <wpwrak> of course, you need some confidence in having gotten the galvanic separation right. the price of failure is a PC :)
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2012-10-21 14:24 <roh> wpwrak: the moc series is nice.. optoisolated hv-switches
2012-10-21 14:26 <wpwrak> just integration of the "large" triac is missing
2012-10-21 14:35 <kristianpaul> triac are live saving, even more if you add an optocoupler
2012-10-21 14:36 <roh> wpwrak: the moc is the driver as far as i can see.. but there are solid-state-switches which have all that integrated
2012-10-21 14:36 <roh> zero-crossing, optoisolated line switches
2012-10-21 14:36 <wpwrak> do you know one ?
2012-10-21 14:38 <wpwrak> the problem with external components is that anything that's rated for mains voltage is bulky, often just to obtain a large enough air gap. when integrated, such issues disappear.
2012-10-21 14:38 <roh> http://www.pollin.de/shop/dt/OTI1OTU2OTk-/Bauelemente_Bauteile/Mechanische_Bauelemente/Relais_Zugmagnete/Solid_State_Relais_XSSR_DA2420.html
2012-10-21 14:38 <roh> just an example. there are more with different ratings
2012-10-21 14:39 <roh> you can directly drive those from the avr, and connect to ac ;)
2012-10-21 14:39 <wpwrak> ah, a module. i was hoping for a chip :)
2012-10-21 14:39 <roh> nope... there are some chips, maybe even in the moc series with integrated triac
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2012-10-21 14:40 <roh> i guess these sil solid state relays are more what you want
2012-10-21 14:40 <wpwrak> at that size, the module should also supply power to the outside :)
2012-10-21 14:41 <roh> its the same case size for 40A
2012-10-21 14:41 <roh> mechanics matter when it comes to power rating ;)
2012-10-21 14:41 <roh> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10636
2012-10-21 14:43 <roh> well.. there are readymade kits for driving a toasteroven or similar appliances to defined temperatures ;)
2012-10-21 14:45 <wpwrak> the one at sparkfun looks much nicer :) let's see if digi-key have something like that ..
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2012-10-21 14:51 <wpwrak> hmm, all quite expensive
2012-10-21 14:52 <roh> digikey is expensive
2012-10-21 14:54 <wpwrak> but factor of 6 ? the cheapest that can handle >= 400 V and >= 8 A are USD 24.76 @ 100. (these are actually 530 V 25 A, but the 8 A models are even more expensive)
2012-10-21 14:57 <wpwrak> well, this one is still reasonable, though also more expensive (800V 5A, USD 6.05 @ 100): http://www.clare.com/home/pdfs.nsf/www/CPC1998.pdf/$file/CPC1998.pdf
2012-10-21 15:03 <roh> well.. i dont buy at dk.. dunno whats their issue
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2012-10-21 15:13 <wpwrak> ah. they also have the sharp part. but listed as "120 V". price similar/better to/than sparkfun:  5.10 @ 1 vs. 4.95, 4.08 @ 10 vs. 4.46, 3.37 @ 100 vs. 3.96
2012-10-21 15:14 <wpwrak> now that makes a lot of sense. alas, the "240 V" part (S208T02) is "call for price"
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2012-10-21 17:56 <roh> wpwrak: yeah. i guess there are some dozend of similar devices
2012-10-21 18:24 <wpwrak> yeah, seems that i'm not the only one who likes their circuits to be compact :)
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2012-10-21 21:04 <qi-bot> The build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20121020-1228
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