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2012-10-10 01:08 <pabs3> http://www.fsf.org/news/hardware-certification-aleph-objects-lulzbot-3d-printer
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2012-10-10 01:39 <kristianpaul> hmm i tought they had give up with that *certification thing..
2012-10-10 01:41 <kristianpaul> and now a hardware  first !
2012-10-10 01:41 <kristianpaul> did they certify software before? well i guess all gnu but not in that way.. :-/
2012-10-10 01:41 <kristianpaul> well :-)
2012-10-10 01:41 <kristianpaul> gn8 ;)
2012-10-10 01:45 <kristianpaul> ha
2012-10-10 01:45 <kristianpaul> cat Arduino_MEGA_2560-Rev3.sch | grep eagle
2012-10-10 01:45 <kristianpaul> <!DOCTYPE eagle SYSTEM "eagle.dtd">
2012-10-10 01:45 <kristianpaul> </eagle>
2012-10-10 01:45 <kristianpaul> <eagle version="6.0">
2012-10-10 01:45 <kristianpaul> this sure respect my freedom of running gratis software :-)
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2012-10-10 01:50 <pabs3> is that related to the LulzBot or an Arduino related comment?
2012-10-10 01:51 <kristianpaul> http://download.lulzbot.com/AO-100/hardware/electronics/ArduinoMEGA_2560/
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2012-10-10 01:59 <pabs3> thanks
2012-10-10 02:00 <wolfspraul> pabs3: unfortunately the fsf advocates the inclusion of proprietary software embedded in hardware (seriously), so if you care about freedom, you have to be careful about where they guide you
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2012-10-10 02:01 <pabs3> well aware of that
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2012-10-10 02:02 <wolfspraul> there have been enough bizarre cases where between 2 solutions, one with some proprietary software open (so one could write a replacement), and a second one with the same proprietary software hidden (and unreplacable), the fsf advocates use of the latter
2012-10-10 02:03 <wolfspraul> although somehow those discussions feel like a thing of the past to me, I'm not sure who still cares about the fsf nowadays?
2012-10-10 02:03 <pabs3> I half-understand their reasons for that, but they seem to forget the existence of reverse engineering
2012-10-10 02:04 <wolfspraul> definitely in the past for me now, and I do find more and more people tell me "oh, I already stopped caring about that x years ago" :-)
2012-10-10 02:04 <wolfspraul> if apple would make the ios un-updatable, maybe the fsf could recommend/endorse the whole thing then :-)
2012-10-10 02:04 <wolfspraul> it's just good for a laugh nowadays...
2012-10-10 02:05 <pabs3> so are there no free tools to view/edit eagle files?
2012-10-10 02:05 <wolfspraul> there was a chance for their leadership, but I think it passed many years ago
2012-10-10 02:06 <wolfspraul> do you care about what hw they 'endorse' or 'certify'?
2012-10-10 02:07 <wolfspraul> I think there are maybe a few hundred people in the world that care
2012-10-10 02:07 <wolfspraul> max 1000
2012-10-10 02:08 <pabs3> me? no.
2012-10-10 02:08 <wolfspraul> maybe a few of those rare species are on this channel though :-) quite possible...
2012-10-10 02:08 <wolfspraul> oh, not even you
2012-10-10 02:08 <wolfspraul> alright then
2012-10-10 02:19 <wpwrak> pabs3: haven't heard of any. there should be tools to convert footprint libraries, though. not sure about schematics symbols.
2012-10-10 02:20 <pabs3> oh, they have AutoCAD files too :/
2012-10-10 02:22 <wpwrak> it gets better and better ;-)
2012-10-10 02:24 <wpwrak> perhaps it's best to think of this as publicity. some people see "FSF" and that makes them feel good. few will dislike it because of the FSF. so it's a win for the project.
2012-10-10 02:25 <wolfspraul> well I see it a little different. the fsf continues to harm itself with this.
2012-10-10 02:25 <xiangfu> mth, just test your jz-3.6 branch. works fine on nanonote. (for work fine with OpenWrt rootfs. we still needs some patches from openwrt)
2012-10-10 02:25 <wolfspraul> the positive impact for the project is minuscule, as I have seen on several occasions
2012-10-10 02:25 <wpwrak> maybe it just makes the project members feel better ;-)
2012-10-10 02:26 <wpwrak> "the great gnu smiles upon us. now we're blessed."
2012-10-10 02:26 <wolfspraul> fsf is a software-only project and philosophy...
2012-10-10 02:27 <wpwrak> that was good enough for many a warrior to travel to strange lands and get himself killed in a holy war, so it can't be all bad :)
2012-10-10 02:27 <wolfspraul> their place in the software philosophy history books is secure, the rest is about securing a few lobbyist jobs some more years :-)
2012-10-10 02:27 <wolfspraul> autocad and eagle shouldn't surprise anybody
2012-10-10 02:28 <wolfspraul> anyway this is my perspective, funny to see that this hw endorsement stuff is still limping along :-)
2012-10-10 02:28 <wpwrak> well, autocad surprises a bit. it's not a very common choice for such things. eagle is much less surprising.
2012-10-10 02:29 <wpwrak> what has never lived cannot die ;-)
2012-10-10 02:30 <wolfspraul> that's a nice play on 'free software never dies'
2012-10-10 02:30 <wolfspraul> :-)
2012-10-10 02:33 <wpwrak> naw, free sw resists death in other ways. i'd call that particular plan B "homeopathic survival"
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2012-10-10 04:51 <kyak> mth: jz-3.6 and RNDIS still errors out with code 10 on Windows 7 -\
2012-10-10 04:52 <kyak> but at least we know now that problem is not in RNDIS, but in USB stack or JZ4740 hardware, right?
2012-10-10 04:56 <kyak> damnit, i really hoped it would work.
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2012-10-10 07:23 <larsc> The FSF has become a institution and often institution care more about keeping themselfs running rather than their original purpose.
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2012-10-10 07:39 <kyak> i think every non-commercial organization is more or less fighting to survive.. doesn't matter how it's called
2012-10-10 07:44 <larsc> in this case it's not the struggle to survive but rather the inability to react to change
2012-10-10 07:47 <larsc> e.g. one way a society can react to such a situation is to allow the organization to keep all its precious banners but any real power or saying is diverted from it
2012-10-10 07:47 <larsc> and I think that fits quite nicely what's going on here
2012-10-10 07:52 <larsc> one famous example is e.g. the british monarchy. The Queen is still allowed to call herself the Queen, but she has no other purpose but being the Queen.
2012-10-10 07:54 <xiangfu> larsc, good point.
2012-10-10 07:57 <larsc> xiangfu: all stolen from "The evolution of Civilizations". Just saw that the book is on archive.org. The PDF starting from page 89 covers that topic.
2012-10-10 07:57 <larsc> http://archive.org/download/CarrollQuigley-TheEvolutionOfCivilizations-AnIntroductionTo/CarrollQuigley-TheEvolutionOfCivilizations-AnIntroductionToHistoricalAnalysis1979.pdf
2012-10-10 08:24 <wpwrak> larsc: hmm, i think the queen actually does have significant power. it's just that she's not obliged to exercise it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_powers#United_Kingdom
2012-10-10 08:25 <wpwrak> i like the bit "The full extent of the Sovereign's prerogatives has never been fully disclosed,"
2012-10-10 08:25 <wpwrak> i'll remember that when i establish my evil empire of world domination
2012-10-10 08:28 <mth> kyak: yes, the only relevant difference between the JZ4740 and JZ4770 situation is the hardware and USB driver
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2012-10-10 08:29 <mth> larsc said it might be possible to use the musb driver on 4740 as well, but I don't know how that would work exactly
2012-10-10 08:29 <larsc> hopefully it would work good ;)
2012-10-10 08:29 <mth> :)
2012-10-10 08:30 <larsc> wpwrak: notice the "In practive however..."
2012-10-10 08:30 <larsc> practice
2012-10-10 08:31 <wpwrak> yeah, she has to wait until there's a crisis in the government. e.g., in this case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis
2012-10-10 08:32 <larsc> maybe the FSF has to wait unitl there is a crisis in the opensource movement ;)
2012-10-10 08:33 <wpwrak> oh dear :)
2012-10-10 08:37 <xiangfu> "The power to declare War and Peace" how to declare a Peace?
2012-10-10 08:38 <xiangfu> wpwrak, there is no China in that wiki page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_powers]
2012-10-10 08:44 <kyak> larsc, mth - how can use musb driver with JZ4740?
2012-10-10 08:45 <kyak> xiangfu: first you have to declare War :)
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2012-10-10 08:46 <larsc> kyak: it appears that the jz4740 uses the musb core.
2012-10-10 08:46 <larsc> And there is a driver for the musb core
2012-10-10 08:47 <larsc> what is missing is the glue code which hooks up some jz4740 specfic things to the musb driver. like clocks, interrupts, memory regions
2012-10-10 08:50 <kyak> oh, ok.. i thought it's a matter of configuration, but we need to code
2012-10-10 08:53 <kyak> do you think using musb driver would help with RNDIS issue, or it is a hardware issue (like for other USB gadgets)?
2012-10-10 08:55 <larsc> no idea
2012-10-10 08:55 <kyak> ok, thanks anyway
2012-10-10 08:57 <xiangfu> kyak, btw: I start to use tp-link + nanonote. that will fix most of the nanonote weakness.: http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=1808
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2012-10-10 10:04 <kyak> xiangfu: looking good, kind of external WiFi/Ethernet card :)
2012-10-10 10:05 <kyak> just wondering if tp-link is more powerfull than Nanonote?
2012-10-10 10:05 <kyak> then it's a question where is a head and where is tail :)
2012-10-10 10:06 <kyak> i mean, if it's an external LCD for tp-link or external connectivity for Nanonote
2012-10-10 10:09 <viric> how do you power the tplink?
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2012-10-10 10:10 <qwebirc22866> hello?
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2012-10-10 10:31 <kyak> guess it's powered via USB
2012-10-10 10:32 <kyak> though it's kinda strange.. can USB host be powered from USB clients? :)
2012-10-10 10:42 <xiangfu> viric, there is battery in that device.
2012-10-10 10:45 <xiangfu> kyak, there are some kind of usb-screen. btw.
2012-10-10 10:47 <viric> ah ok
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2012-10-10 13:05 <whitequark> kyak: usb host can, if it's an OTG host
2012-10-10 13:05 <whitequark> check the OTG ACA specification
2012-10-10 13:05 <whitequark> it's pretty simple, just a bunch of resistors
2012-10-10 13:35 <Fallenou> win 31
2012-10-10 13:37 <viric> 31, not bad
2012-10-10 13:37 <viric> :)
2012-10-10 13:52 <kyak> whitequark: ah, ok
2012-10-10 13:53 <whitequark> kyak: technically nothing prevents you from routing VBUS to +5V on the host and doing the reverse on the device
2012-10-10 13:53 <whitequark> through USB spec requires you to do negotiation
2012-10-10 13:53 <whitequark> via ID pin
2012-10-10 13:54 <kyak> i guess i won't be able to charge Ben anymore after that, right? :)
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2012-10-10 14:19 <whitequark> kyak: yes
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2012-10-10 14:58 <kyak> and then it will probably blow up another computer, which doesn't have that pin reversed :)
2012-10-10 15:01 <kyak> somehow it reminds me about "cable of death" i received with milkymist :)
2012-10-10 15:01 <kyak> http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2012-02-08.log.html#t15:40
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2012-10-10 15:44 <kristianpaul> xiangfu: usb-screen?
2012-10-10 15:45 <xiangfu> kristianpaul, yes. I know there is such device. and someone have connect that to a OpenWrt router. he also connected usb-keyboard and usb-mouse
2012-10-10 15:47 <xiangfu> kristianpaul, http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/18/displaylink-for-linux-turns-a-humble-wireless-router-into-a-beau/
2012-10-10 15:48 <kristianpaul> oh
2012-10-10 15:49 <kristianpaul> ah yes now i remenber
2012-10-10 15:52 <kristianpaul> i had seen that screen in some multi seat computers
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2012-10-10 16:12 <viric> that router is bigger than many computers :)
2012-10-10 16:14 <kristianpaul> guess 1Gigabit routers are not far big and powerfull than our currents netop computers
2012-10-10 16:14 <viric> ah yes, gigabit routers must be quite fast
2012-10-10 16:14 <viric> here we have a linksys with kamikaze...
2012-10-10 16:15 <viric> And it saturates at ~4MB/s between WAN and LAN
2012-10-10 16:15 <viric> that's a bit annoying, given that we have a fast WAN link :)
2012-10-10 16:15 <viric> but we can live with that bottleneck
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2012-10-10 16:21 <kristianpaul> hope the router can live as well :)
2012-10-10 16:23 <viric> yes, quite well :)
2012-10-10 16:23 <kyak> viric: i guess you have NAT between WAN and LAN?
2012-10-10 16:23 <viric> yes
2012-10-10 16:24 <kyak> i had that too.. after i bridged WAN and LAN, problem went away
2012-10-10 16:24 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu: uboot-xburst: update to v2012.10-rc2 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1079647
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2012-10-10 16:28 <viric> kyak: ha! well, I can't do that without trouble :)
2012-10-10 16:32 <kyak> yeah, this is not always possible :) in my configuration, i have a server before the router
2012-10-10 16:32 <kyak> which is doing NAT
2012-10-10 16:34 <viric> this openwrt does vpn with openvpn too
2012-10-10 16:35 <viric> works well enough :)
2012-10-10 16:38 <viric> have you seen http://www.wikispeed.com/ ? :) appeared on the press today
2012-10-10 16:39 <kyak> mine does two WiFi's :) i decided to set up a guest BSSID. this is insane how capable this 7 years device is (with openwrt, that is)
2012-10-10 16:39 <kyak> no, what's that?
2012-10-10 16:40 <viric> collaborative open source car
2012-10-10 16:44 <kyak> for "collaborative" there is AUTOSAR already. "open source" - what, you are going to modify your car's SW? ISO26262 will kick your ass really fast
2012-10-10 16:44 <kyak> i'm sorry, i'm just not too far from automotive subject
2012-10-10 16:44 <kyak> this is going nowhere
2012-10-10 16:44 <wpwrak> kyak: if they can still catch you after the tuning ;-)
2012-10-10 16:45 <viric> :)
2012-10-10 16:45 <viric> I didn't pay much attention; I just saw it on the news
2012-10-10 16:45 <kyak> they can always catch you dead, which they will if you tune wrong :)
2012-10-10 16:46 <kyak> this is a car and human lifes were talking about, not some god damn linux
2012-10-10 16:51 <kyak> wpwrak: btw, they've fixed that problem with mkfs.ubifs: http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/linux-mtd/2012-October/044488.html. The resulting patch contains 4 'goto' though :)
2012-10-10 16:54 <wpwrak> i don't see any "goto" ?
2012-10-10 16:56 <kyak> there is an updated patch in attachement
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2012-10-10 16:57 <kyak> http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/linux-mtd/attachments/20121010/b1472c7b/attachment.bin here
2012-10-10 16:58 <wpwrak> a download-only attachment ? lovely. i'll just believe you ;-)
2012-10-10 16:59 <whitequark> text/x-patch
2012-10-10 16:59 <kyak> is it still true that using goto's is a very bad coding practice? or something has changed?
2012-10-10 17:00 <whitequark> wpwrak: consider using curl
2012-10-10 17:00 <whitequark> kyak: kinda, except if you use it for error handling
2012-10-10 17:00 <kyak> mm.. might be the case here. The code handles errors
2012-10-10 17:01 <whitequark> e.g.: int error = 0; error = fun1(); if(error != 0) goto err; [repeat as needed] error: close(fd1); close(fd2);
2012-10-10 17:01 <whitequark> ah yes
2012-10-10 17:01 <wpwrak> in general, goto is okay if it leads to more understandable code. error handling is a situation where this is commonly the case
2012-10-10 17:01 <whitequark> it's also used inside kernel in the same fashion
2012-10-10 17:01 <whitequark> wpwrak: true.
2012-10-10 17:01 <whitequark> also, breaking from nested loops
2012-10-10 17:01 <larsc> kyak: 'goto conisdered harmful' has been a bit harmful, because now everybody panics when he sees a goto.
2012-10-10 17:01 <wpwrak> yup :)
2012-10-10 17:01 <whitequark> and in very very rare cases you need a computed goto
2012-10-10 17:02 <wpwrak> that's called "switch" :)
2012-10-10 17:02 <whitequark> naw
2012-10-10 17:02 <kyak> what is a computed goto?
2012-10-10 17:02 <whitequark> a gcc extension: goto *addr
2012-10-10 17:02 <whitequark> which performs what you think it does
2012-10-10 17:02 <kyak> ah.. like, goto on the fly.. now this is definitely harmful
2012-10-10 17:03 <whitequark> wpwrak: Safari's JavaScriptCore interpreter uses this
2012-10-10 17:03 <larsc> but it's not that harmful if you use it to create non spaghetti code. most other control-flow changing statements can also be considered harmful since they allow you to create bad code
2012-10-10 17:03 <whitequark> it has bytecode where opcode id is machine word long and is exactly the same as the address of the label handling it in interpreter loop
2012-10-10 17:04 <whitequark> which sounds pretty insane, but also allowed them to achieve pretty nice performance without sacrificing portability of C
2012-10-10 17:04 <whitequark> it was also somehow related with fitting the entire interpreter loop in L1 cache
2012-10-10 17:04 <whitequark> I'm not quite sure how switch prevented that, but it did
2012-10-10 17:06 <whitequark> ah, in fact computed goto is an extension specifically created for writing interpreter loops
2012-10-10 17:08 <wpwrak> cases where the address of a label affects the direct input of that computed goto may be the only situations where you need that sort of hack
2012-10-10 17:08 <wpwrak> as soon as there is some indirection, a switch () could be optimized to be equivalent
2012-10-10 17:15 <whitequark> wpwrak: the problem is probably that adding another layer of indirection breaks branch predictor
2012-10-10 17:16 <whitequark> http://wingolog.org/archives/2012/06/27/inside-javascriptcores-low-level-interpreter
2012-10-10 17:19 <whitequark> this comment is also pretty nice
2012-10-10 17:19 <whitequark> http://wingolog.org/archives/2012/06/27/inside-javascriptcores-low-level-interpreter#bf8e6cfb6c54396f66d75c475676b94b3b65cea7
2012-10-10 17:28 <viric> goto isn't that bad; and compilers are quite good at giving warnings and errors for harmful gotos
2012-10-10 17:31 <whitequark> eh? warnings and errors? can you provide an example?
2012-10-10 17:32 <wpwrak> whitequark: what i mean is that another layer of indirection is likely to move the trick of using address as opcode beyond the optimization horizon of the compiler. it could still do it if it's able to determine that these values are used only as tokens and only inside that function, but it's much harder.
2012-10-10 17:32 <wpwrak> and if the values are passed outside the function, it gets even worse
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2012-10-10 17:33 <whitequark> wpwrak: yeah, exactly
2012-10-10 17:33 <whitequark> no known compilers are able to determine that
2012-10-10 17:33 <whitequark> you'd need lots of visibility tricks and whatnot. maybe a very, very good LTO-capable compiler could do that.
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2012-10-10 23:01 <arossDOTme> wolfspraul
2012-10-10 23:01 <arossDOTme> wolfspraul:
2012-10-10 23:01 <arossDOTme> are you there
2012-10-10 23:04 <wolfspraul> yes :-)
2012-10-10 23:04 <wolfspraul> good morning
2012-10-10 23:08 <DocScrutinizer05> funny job right now: integrate a couple of "rollercoasters" and CT or MR to a smooth system
2012-10-10 23:09 <arossDOTme> arr thanks, my mailing list posts are being rejected. My email address works and I did a post with it but now  it's rejected.
2012-10-10 23:10 <arossDOTme> its the aross.me one
2012-10-10 23:10 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.amst.co.at/sites/products/humancentrifuges/centrifuge.html   http://www.swissray.com/formulaplus.html
2012-10-10 23:10 <arossDOTme> maillist_qihardware@thatdomain.me or something like that
2012-10-10 23:10 <wolfspraul> hmm
2012-10-10 23:11 <wolfspraul> thanks for the heads up!
2012-10-10 23:11 <wolfspraul> let me check this...
2012-10-10 23:11 <arossDOTme> thanks
2012-10-10 23:11 <DocScrutinizer05> *burp*
2012-10-10 23:11 <DocScrutinizer05> n8
2012-10-10 23:12 <wolfspraul> n8
2012-10-10 23:13 <wolfspraul> he :-)
2012-10-10 23:14 <wolfspraul> I set your account to 'mod' because I ran into your last mail which was so borderline 'spammish' that I thought it's just spam
2012-10-10 23:14 <wolfspraul> sorry about that, and thanks for bringing it up here
2012-10-10 23:14 <wolfspraul> if I see junk, I tend to quite radically delete whatever I can in the minimum amount of time, sometimes with some collateral damage...
2012-10-10 23:27 <arossDOTme> thanks, i think :)
2012-10-10 23:31 <arossDOTme> Shall I resend them? Or do you send me dinner to the list?
2012-10-10 23:33 <arossDOTme> I think i can see how my last post looked like spam.
2012-10-10 23:35 <wolfspraul> resend please, I think that's the easiest
2012-10-10 23:35 <wolfspraul> thanks
2012-10-10 23:35 <arossDOTme> ok spam time! lol
2012-10-10 23:35 <arossDOTme> ok i will quite the spam bad jokes
2012-10-10 23:37 <arossDOTme> soory
2012-10-10 23:46 heberth has joined #qi-hardware
2012-10-10 23:49 <wpwrak> now i'm curious about the content :)
2012-10-10 23:49 <wpwrak> was it the "Anti Thief" ?
2012-10-10 23:51 <arossDOTme> yep
2012-10-10 23:51 <arossDOTme> resent
2012-10-10 23:52 <wpwrak> i mean, was it the "Anti Thief" that triggered wolfgang's spam finger ?
2012-10-10 23:54 <arossDOTme> It was my happy,keen "my nano note ordered" post.
2012-10-10 23:54 <arossDOTme> "Yea My Nano Note Is Coming!"
2012-10-10 23:55 <wpwrak> aah ! yeah, happy people are suspicious.
2012-10-10 23:56 <arossDOTme> all the ads have given happy a unhappy name.
2012-10-10 23:56 <arossDOTme> the =those