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2012-09-25 04:23 <whitequark> http://whitequark.org/blog/2012/09/25/why-raspberry-pi-is-unsuitable-for-education/
2012-09-25 04:43 * pabs3 submits that to slashdot
2012-09-25 04:44 * whitequark checks if the server could handle the load
2012-09-25 04:44 <whitequark> thanks, btw.
2012-09-25 04:46 <pabs3> lwn and #debian-arm too, since there are some ARM employees in the latter :)
2012-09-25 04:49 <pabs3> whitequark:  seems you are missing some info? "except for the graphics processor, see more on that below" but that is the 2nd last paragraph
2012-09-25 04:50 <pabs3> maybe s/below/above/
2012-09-25 04:50 <whitequark> yeah, should be above.
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2012-09-25 04:59 <pabs3> whitequark: some feedback:
2012-09-25 05:00 <pabs3> <p2-mate> mips is not royalty free :P
2012-09-25 05:00 <pabs3> <p2-mate> and mips inc does hold some patents on the mips architecture
2012-09-25 05:00 <whitequark> pabs3: any chances to discuss that?
2012-09-25 05:01 <pabs3> jump on #debian-arm on irc.oftc.net
2012-09-25 05:01 <pabs3> wikipedia and http://www.mips.com/company/about-us/patent-portfolio/ seem to confirm the patent part
2012-09-25 05:02 <pabs3> LM32 would probably have been a better example
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2012-09-25 05:09 <whitequark> yeah, I'll add a paragraph there
2012-09-25 05:16 <rz2k> damn it, why we have two "opensource"-oriented irc networks?
2012-09-25 05:17 <whitequark> the same reason we have qt&gtk
2012-09-25 05:17 <whitequark> oss&alsa
2012-09-25 05:17 <whitequark> etc.
2012-09-25 05:22 <pabs3> hysterical raisins
2012-09-25 05:23 * rz2k nearly said u mean one is bogus like hell and second one is barely usable?
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2012-09-25 05:24 <rz2k> I should stop using kvirc, it eats my quotation marks.
2012-09-25 05:24 <whitequark> pabs3: _raisins_?
2012-09-25 05:24 <whitequark> that is, the berries?
2012-09-25 05:26 <rz2k> bro, that was a language-based joke.
2012-09-25 05:26 <pabs3> http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hysterical-reasons.html
2012-09-25 05:33 <whitequark> heh
2012-09-25 05:46 * pabs3 prefers OFTC because Freenode have /mode +i by default
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2012-09-25 09:18 <lekernel> whitequark: nice rant. now I can point everyone asking me about rpi to it.
2012-09-25 09:40 <lindi-> I'd concentrate on the non-free GPU code that you need to boot it
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2012-09-25 09:48 <whitequark> lindi-: technically, every Cortex-* chip has proprietary bootrom in some form or another
2012-09-25 09:48 <whitequark> I'd say that practically any chip nowadays does
2012-09-25 09:48 <whitequark> but yeah, the scheme that rpi has is off limits.
2012-09-25 09:48 <whitequark> lekernel: you're welcome.
2012-09-25 09:55 * xiangfu tweeted. whitequark's rpi post.
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2012-09-25 10:08 <LunaVorax> Hi!
2012-09-25 10:22 <pabs3> whitequark: how does LM32 boot?
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2012-09-25 10:27 <whitequark> pabs3: there is no silicon LM32 implementations
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2012-09-25 10:42 <lindi-> indeed
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2012-09-25 11:41 <lekernel> whitequark: there are, but they aren't public
2012-09-25 11:41 <lekernel> (lm32 license isn't gpl-style)
2012-09-25 11:43 <whitequark> lekernel: then I doubt that bootrom would be public either
2012-09-25 11:54 <Fallenou> well the bootrom is not a big problem is it ?
2012-09-25 11:54 <Fallenou> as long as it is documented
2012-09-25 11:54 <Fallenou> you cannot change it anyway
2012-09-25 11:57 <whitequark> I agree. I was replying to lindi-
2012-09-25 12:13 <viric> rpi was a lot meant to beat in price, isn't t?
2012-09-25 12:13 <viric> it
2012-09-25 12:15 <larsc> primarily it is a marketing campaign, I guess
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2012-09-25 12:18 <viric> a marketing campaing with a product, though
2012-09-25 12:20 <kyak> and why exactly would education need a "white box"?
2012-09-25 12:24 <larsc> well I guess that always depends on what you want to teach. If you want to teach how to use and program a black-box SoC the rpi is probably not too bad
2012-09-25 12:25 <larsc> if you want to teach how a modern SoC works from top to bottom, the rpi is probably not so good
2012-09-25 12:26 <viric> I agree
2012-09-25 12:26 <viric> a cheap blackbox soc, with enough degrees of freedom for many CS students
2012-09-25 12:27 <viric> (and a huge effort marketing it)
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2012-09-25 12:28 <kyak> then we agree that rpi is good for teaching how to work with SoC, and bad for teaching how SoC works.
2012-09-25 12:29 <kyak> noone in his mind will use rpi to teach to SoC works, so rpi IS suitable for education
2012-09-25 12:29 <kyak> s/to/how
2012-09-25 12:29 <qi-bot> kyak meant: "noone in his mind will use rpi how teach how SoC works, so rpi IS suitable for education"
2012-09-25 12:29 <kyak> hehe
2012-09-25 12:29 <whitequark> to everyone about black boxes.
2012-09-25 12:30 <whitequark> you see, the RPi isn't the cheapest or most accessible one.
2012-09-25 12:30 <kyak> what is a cheaper alternative?
2012-09-25 12:30 <whitequark> you have plenty of Allwinner boxes in very different form factors which have cases and accessories and still just a little bit more expensive
2012-09-25 12:30 <whitequark> the link in the beginning mentions one.
2012-09-25 12:30 <whitequark> I'm absolutely sure that an RPi won't survive a day without a case in a school environment.
2012-09-25 12:31 <whitequark> and you need either WiFi (which isn't there), or wired Ethernet infrastructure (which isn't there either, or otherwise you won't need RPis), etc.
2012-09-25 12:31 <whitequark> the TCO for RPi is far higher than the board cost.
2012-09-25 12:32 <whitequark> so yeah, it's kinda usable in that sense, but what's the point
2012-09-25 12:32 <kyak> so feel free to just say that rpi is shit due to technical flaws
2012-09-25 12:32 <kyak> but your main point is about opennnes
2012-09-25 12:32 <whitequark> for me, the whole "for education" point was about teaching computing from ground up, see also comparison to BBC Micro.
2012-09-25 12:33 <viric> the old bbc micro?
2012-09-25 12:33 <whitequark> because otherwise I don't see which problem does it solve at all.
2012-09-25 12:33 <viric> what is a TCO?
2012-09-25 12:33 <whitequark> if you need a cheap computer for schools, there are _plenty_ of options, you hardly need another crappy broadcom board
2012-09-25 12:33 <whitequark> TCO = total cost of ownership
2012-09-25 12:33 <viric> ok
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2012-09-25 13:17 <paul_boddie> whitequark: Nice article! :-)
2012-09-25 13:19 <paul_boddie> I agree with you about the relative openness of the BBC Micro, although there were proprietary bits in that, too. But at least they published the schematics.
2012-09-25 13:21 <whitequark> raspberry pi schematics are public
2012-09-25 13:21 <whitequark> board layout isn't
2012-09-25 13:21 <viric> I didn't know the bbc micro was any open
2012-09-25 13:22 <paul_boddie> OK, I'm not sure the board layout was public for the BBC Micro, but they at least published a lot of technical details including the BOM in the manual, I think.
2012-09-25 13:22 <whitequark> viric: it wasn't, but it was distributed with schematics and BOM
2012-09-25 13:22 <viric> ok
2012-09-25 13:22 <viric> well, many televisors were distribted with schematics, no? :)
2012-09-25 13:22 <whitequark> and given the complexity of computers in that age, it was enough to figure out the rest
2012-09-25 13:23 <viric> televisions?
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2012-09-25 13:23 <whitequark> so the goal of having even the lower layer accessible was achieved
2012-09-25 13:23 <viric> at the valve time, a lot came with schematics :)
2012-09-25 13:23 <paul_boddie> I think the ULAs were all proprietary, which was probably less of an inconvenience on the BBC than it was on the Acorn Electron.
2012-09-25 13:24 <whitequark> ULA?
2012-09-25 13:24 <paul_boddie> Uncommitted Logic Array. The forerunner to FPGA technology.
2012-09-25 13:25 <paul_boddie> There's a project and a book about reverse-engineering the ULA in the ZX Spectrum.
2012-09-25 13:26 <wpwrak> the war cry of the martians in "war of the worlds" :)
2012-09-25 13:26 <whitequark> ah. well, you could use a good microscope
2012-09-25 13:26 <whitequark> given that it's OTP
2012-09-25 13:27 <paul_boddie> Yes, that's what they did, I think. http://www.zxdesign.info/book/theZXSpectrumULA.shtml
2012-09-25 13:29 <paul_boddie> The Electron's ULA takes the essentials from various discrete ICs and combines them into a single component. Acorn did actually document that in a vague "block diagram" kind of way, and the registers were all documented, of course, but replicating it is left as an exercise for the reader. :-)
2012-09-25 13:37 <paul_boddie> But I guess that just comparing the amount of technical information in the manuals for those old computers to what you get with the Raspberry Pi shows that they are leagues apart.
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2012-09-25 15:49 <paul_boddie> Some more material for whitequark's article: http://www.wired.com/opinion/2012/09/raspberry-pi-insider-exclusive-sellout-to-sell-out/
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2012-09-25 15:53 <whitequark> >How could we enable hacking while preventing cloning?
2012-09-25 15:53 <whitequark> lolwhat
2012-09-25 15:54 <whitequark> like if you *actually* need 7 years to make an rpi.
2012-09-25 15:54 <whitequark> or that absence of gerbers prevents cloning.
2012-09-25 15:56 <larsc> I thought you couldn't source the brcms on the rpi anyway?
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2012-09-25 16:57 <whitequark> larsc: maybe a chinese company wishing to clone them could
2012-09-25 16:57 <whitequark> they probably won't anyway, but that's another thing
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2012-09-25 17:06 <viric> whitequark: they were afraid of qi-hw
2012-09-25 17:07 <GNUtoo-desktop> who? tuxbrain?
2012-09-25 17:07 <GNUtoo-desktop> hi btw
2012-09-25 17:08 <viric> rpi people
2012-09-25 17:08 <GNUtoo-desktop> ok
2012-09-25 17:09 <GNUtoo-desktop> if rpi is the raspery py they can't be QI because of how their device is made:
2012-09-25 17:09 <GNUtoo-desktop> *rasberry
2012-09-25 17:09 <GNUtoo-desktop> They need a GPU "firmware" to boot the machine
2012-09-25 17:10 <GNUtoo-desktop> which is proprietary....
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2012-09-25 17:14 <paul_boddie> Yes, whitequark's article sums it all up pretty comprehensively.
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2012-09-25 17:51 <viric> Is the nanonote opus-ready? :)
2012-09-25 17:52 <viric> (quite an unfortunate name, here)
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2012-09-25 18:19 <lekernel> haha they had problems with BGA routing
2012-09-25 18:19 <lekernel> I guess wired reportards are now discovering what BGA means ...
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2012-09-25 18:23 <larsc> the article was written by one rpi founders
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2012-09-25 18:53 <whitequark> viric: define "afraid"?
2012-09-25 18:53 <whitequark> for what reason?
2012-09-25 18:53 <viric> qi-hw cloning rpi :)
2012-09-25 18:54 <viric> ee hackers
2012-09-25 18:54 <viric> I was just kidding
2012-09-25 18:55 <whitequark> ah
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2012-09-25 19:01 <whitequark> lekernel: is wired that bad?
2012-09-25 19:01 * whitequark finds gigaom pretty competent
2012-09-25 19:24 <lekernel> ah, gigaom... "The solar kit charges at a rate of 4 watts per hour and can hold 16 watts in its battery"
2012-09-25 19:24 <lekernel> http://gigaom.com/cleantech/a-social-energy-network-turns-to-solar-chargers-shopping/
2012-09-25 19:25 <lekernel> author is specialist of "renewable energy"
2012-09-25 19:25 <viric> hold 16 watts?
2012-09-25 19:26 <lekernel> that's my point :)
2012-09-25 19:26 <viric> :)
2012-09-25 19:31 <Fallenou> 21:02 < whitequark> lekernel: is wired that bad? < does it contain anything else than advertisment pages ?
2012-09-25 19:33 <whitequark> lekernel: LOL
2012-09-25 19:34 <whitequark> watts per hour
2012-09-25 19:35 <whitequark> reminds me of how utility companies here measure energy in kW*h, which is technically correct, but quite fucked up.
2012-09-25 19:36 <wpwrak> how so ?
2012-09-25 19:36 <whitequark> wpwrak: correct or FU?
2012-09-25 19:37 <whitequark> if latter, I just find it weird
2012-09-25 19:37 <whitequark> probably because my physics class was before I ever needed to track grid energy usage
2012-09-25 19:38 <viric> I'm fine with kW*h
2012-09-25 19:39 <whitequark> well I always need to include 3600 coefficient, that drives me mad
2012-09-25 19:39 <viric> for what? That translates easily to money :)
2012-09-25 19:41 <whitequark> because I tend to calculate everything else in SI units
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2012-09-25 19:42 <whitequark> and if you run a 20A device for 80s, then how much kWh will it be?.
2012-09-25 19:42 <whitequark> *?..
2012-09-25 19:42 <whitequark> well disregard that, it's just my pet peeve
2012-09-25 19:45 <larsc> you could calculate the amount of money you have to pay per joule once and use that ;)
2012-09-25 19:45 <viric> do you use m^3 for milk?
2012-09-25 19:45 <viric> :)
2012-09-25 19:45 <whitequark> if only the price of electricity was constant...
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2012-09-25 19:46 <whitequark> viric: liters are translated to cubic meters with a 1e6 coefficient, that's way easier than dividing by 3.6.
2012-09-25 19:46 <viric> I agree.
2012-09-25 19:47 <whitequark> and have you ever seen milk sold by liter, not by package?
2012-09-25 19:50 <wpwrak> maybe if you ask nicely, they'll send you your bill in MWs, and charge you for 1 MWs the same as for one 1 kWh ;-)
2012-09-25 19:51 <wpwrak> actually, you should pay more, since it's a whole million !
2012-09-25 19:51 <whitequark> MJs you mean?
2012-09-25 19:52 <whitequark> ah, MW*s
2012-09-25 19:52 <whitequark> lol
2012-09-25 19:52 <whitequark> I'd send that idea to putin
2012-09-25 19:52 <whitequark> who'll be our dicta^Wpresident for the next 18 years
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2012-09-25 19:53 <viric> whitequark: milk sold by liter? sure
2012-09-25 19:54 <whitequark> viric: yeah I understand what you mean, through I'm probably somewhat young and lived mostly in urban areas
2012-09-25 19:54 <viric> :)
2012-09-25 19:55 <viric> here we have trendy milk service machines, where you insert coins, and a tap gives milk.
2012-09-25 19:55 <whitequark> cool
2012-09-25 19:55 <whitequark> I won't really trust such a machine to provide non-rotten milk here, through
2012-09-25 19:59 <larsc> i suppose they throw away whats left over every evening
2012-09-25 20:00 <viric> I'm not a milk master
2012-09-25 20:00 <viric> They change it every day
2012-09-25 20:00 <viric> but I doubt they 'throw it away'
2012-09-25 20:00 <viric> there are plenty of good things to do with milk.
2012-09-25 20:00 <whitequark> larsc: that implies you actually care about it and do some maintenance.
2012-09-25 20:01 <viric> http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ca&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ca&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lletllet.com%2Fhigiene-seguretat.html
2012-09-25 20:01 <larsc> whitequark: that's a big problem in russia isn't it, nobody cares about anything
2012-09-25 20:02 <whitequark> larsc: exactly
2012-09-25 20:02 <viric> or care on very particular things, and nothing else.
2012-09-25 20:02 <viric> It's just a matter of finding what does every russian care about
2012-09-25 20:03 <whitequark> viric: looking at people around, I suppose it is "not giving a fuck about anything". so...
2012-09-25 20:03 <viric> :)
2012-09-25 20:04 <whitequark> well you could definitely distract people enough to strip they from the ability of not giving a fuck. you'd need a second WWII. I doubt you actually want it.
2012-09-25 20:04 <larsc> but why is that, is everything so fucked up, that people gave up to care?
2012-09-25 20:05 <viric> It could be bad feedback. People not caring on anything because other people don't care on anything.
2012-09-25 20:05 <whitequark> yup, positive feedback plays a great role
2012-09-25 20:06 <larsc> tragedy of the commons extreme
2012-09-25 20:06 <whitequark> larsc: kind of. gave up, yeah
2012-09-25 20:10 <whitequark> actually I won't really oppose some country dropping a thermonuclear bomb on moscow, even considering that I'm there
2012-09-25 20:10 <whitequark> because I'm absolutely sick of it
2012-09-25 20:10 <whitequark> everything around
2012-09-25 20:17 <larsc> and no chance of leaving it behind?
2012-09-25 20:21 <whitequark> sometimes you can't actually believe that there is a good world out there
2012-09-25 20:22 <wpwrak> step 1: find a country that has low immigration barriers. step 2: learn the language. step 3: make enough money for the trip and whatever you need to get started. step 4: escape into the adventure :)
2012-09-25 20:23 <larsc> whitequark: that's what you did?
2012-09-25 20:23 <larsc> wpwrak:
2012-09-25 20:24 <wpwrak> well, it looks a bit like that from the outside :) with less desperation, though
2012-09-25 20:24 <whitequark> wpwrak: 1. australia 2. done 3. in progress 4. I won't leave some people behind. I'm trapped here for at least 2 yrs, and who knows what next.
2012-09-25 20:26 <whitequark> desperation might be caused by the fact that I'm a bit drunk atm. might. or different causes.
2012-09-25 20:26 <wpwrak> ah well, people have endured worse :)
2012-09-25 20:26 <wpwrak> of course, 4 adds baggage
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2012-09-25 20:30 <wpwrak> grmbl. brain still not working well enough to write a brute-forcer for finding an algorithm that picks the k-th (sorted) value from an unsorted n-vector :-(
2012-09-25 20:32 <larsc> are you trying to find something that does it in less than n log n?
2012-09-25 20:33 <wpwrak> yup
2012-09-25 20:34 <larsc> i don't think that's possible
2012-09-25 20:34 <wpwrak> and with very little overhead. has to run a lot of times in an avr.
2012-09-25 20:35 <wpwrak> here's an example for n = 3, k = 2nd element (i.e., the median): http://pastebin.ca/2207660
2012-09-25 20:37 <larsc> and you use n * log n compare operations
2012-09-25 20:38 <wpwrak> the brute-forcer idea is to try all sequences of comparisons and pick one that yields the decision tree with the lowest depth. should still be doable up to at least n = 5.
2012-09-25 20:38 <wpwrak> (compares) yes
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2012-09-25 20:39 <larsc> but?
2012-09-25 20:39 <wpwrak> oh, just need to wrap my hay-feverish brain around it, that's all
2012-09-25 20:43 <larsc> so n and k are fixed?
2012-09-25 20:43 <larsc> and you just want the code like above?
2012-09-25 20:52 <wpwrak> yes
2012-09-25 20:52 <wpwrak> k and n are build-time values
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2012-09-25 20:53 <wpwrak> (well, the idea is to make it possible to generate variants with different k and n values. as opposed to manually cooking up such a function, as in my example)
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2012-09-25 22:08 <mth> whitequark: is your server melting yet?
2012-09-25 22:10 <Fallenou> a lot of moronic comments
2012-09-25 22:11 <Fallenou> they don't even understand why it is so chip
2012-09-25 22:11 <Fallenou> cheap*
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2012-09-25 22:11 <Fallenou> I bet they got the main chip for almost nothing
2012-09-25 22:11 <Fallenou> they work there god damn it
2012-09-25 22:11 <Fallenou> it's almost a project of the company making the chip
2012-09-25 22:12 <Fallenou> and so far they were right to invest on this project
2012-09-25 22:12 <Fallenou> so much advertisement
2012-09-25 22:12 <Fallenou> blog posts, tweets, facebook posts, conferences
2012-09-25 22:13 <Fallenou> I wonder how much it would have cost to pay such a huge advertisement campaign
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2012-09-25 22:33 <mth> it depends on what kind of education you're looking for: if you want to teach people application programming, R-Pi is fine, but if you want to teach them low-level programming or hardware design, it has serious problems
2012-09-25 22:34 <mth> and if it's just about application programming, then the board should have been sold boxed, imo
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