2012-08-20 00:05 Openfree has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2012-08-20 00:26 oh that's nice, thanks larsc 2012-08-20 00:35 LunaVorax has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2012-08-20 00:54 so it takes about one month from the moment they begin work until they emit the final document ? and yes, it's those emissions in the low MHz range that i'd be most concerned about. i should have kept the old radios of my parents. they would cover that range :) 2012-08-20 00:54 scientes_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 01:00 the testing itself takes a few hours only, at most 2012-08-20 01:01 I tried to put things in perspective, I think for your little thing you already worry too much about "fcc" 2012-08-20 01:01 your problem will be to find a lab that cares about a one-time little nothing like testing your board 2012-08-20 01:01 where 99% of people who would make such type of device wouldn't bother with anything fcc :-) 2012-08-20 01:01 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 01:02 the idea of the fcc is to avoid something like "if I turn this on, will my cellphone stop working" etc. 2012-08-20 01:02 you can just say 'no' with your professional authority/design 'excellency', and done 2012-08-20 01:04 at least if more people would think like you, testing labs wouldn't worry about their growth opportunities :-) 2012-08-20 01:05 for example when importing into the US itself, home territory of the FCC, you would check this on the import form, even for large quantities 2012-08-20 01:05 "An FCC grant of equipment authorization and an FCC ID are not required, but the equipment complies with FCC technical requirements." 2012-08-20 01:06 if you 'certify' this "complies with tech req" with your own professional authority, including some realization you had in your dream that there cannot be an issue, nothing will ever happen 2012-08-20 01:06 and everybody can focus on making money :-) 2012-08-20 01:06 I doubt you find a lab to take care of this little business, that is exactly why the labs in europe just don't even pickup the phone unless you wire 25k usd upfront 2012-08-20 01:06 I can understand them :-) 2012-08-20 01:07 in China you may be lucky off-season that someone takes your thing, and I think it can easily all be finished in 1 day, testing, paperwork, stamp, done 2012-08-20 01:07 there will *not* be an FCC ID in any case 2012-08-20 01:07 but if there ever were a liability issue (very very unlikely), you could drag in that poor lab and point fingeres at them, I guess 2012-08-20 01:07 so they make you pay a little 2012-08-20 01:08 risk = profit. if you outsource all risk, you cannot make a profit, by definition. 2012-08-20 01:09 I suggest you just make that statement of compliance yourself, and it can be verified by an FCC approved lab at a later point shall that become necessary 2012-08-20 01:13 well, this sort of thing may come up when someone wants to import/resell 2012-08-20 01:13 that's why you make that statement 2012-08-20 01:13 you are the designer, you know the board, someone must STEP UP 2012-08-20 01:13 you want to point fingers at a lab and make them step up, fine. then you find such lab and pay. 2012-08-20 01:14 your device is an unintentional radiator in any case 2012-08-20 01:14 even you admit that :-) 2012-08-20 01:14 so just say so, just say "yes, it does comply with the fcc technical requirements for unintentional radiators" 2012-08-20 01:14 check the box on the import form, and done 2012-08-20 01:14 the difference between me and the lab is that they have the equipment to actually see what's going on :) the paperwork itself is much less of a concern 2012-08-20 01:14 of course if you keep saying "but I am not sure", then fine, pay for it 2012-08-20 01:16 I can just tell you that business doesn't work with that kind of hesitation level 2012-08-20 01:16 that little thing won't radiate 2012-08-20 01:16 and even if it does, it can be addressed later 2012-08-20 01:16 just someone needs to step up, make a decision, take responsibility, and move forward 2012-08-20 01:16 make good design choices, and you are safe 2012-08-20 01:16 really 2012-08-20 01:17 (good design choices) tricky without any feedback :) 2012-08-20 01:17 that's already much more professional love than 90% of electronic china toys will ever receive 2012-08-20 01:17 you worry about the wrong things 2012-08-20 01:17 that's why you make no money :-) 2012-08-20 01:18 chinese little electronic plastic toys for kids are flooding the world, right? 2012-08-20 01:18 including poisonous colors and what not 2012-08-20 01:18 and including the crudest possible electronics you can imagine 2012-08-20 01:18 radiating? 2012-08-20 01:18 ha ha 2012-08-20 01:18 WHO KNOWS? 2012-08-20 01:18 fcc? 2012-08-20 01:18 OH 2012-08-20 01:18 MY 2012-08-20 01:18 GOD 2012-08-20 01:18 you must be living in another world... 2012-08-20 01:19 you personally have 100 times the skill level of the entire hw engineering team of any chinese electronic toy maker 2012-08-20 01:19 they wouldn't even know what fcc is, actually 2012-08-20 01:19 or that they are making 'unintentional radiators' 2012-08-20 01:19 anyway, that's my perspective... 2012-08-20 01:20 my advice: 2012-08-20 01:20 1) step up and make the professional statement that your device meets the requirements for an fcc unindentional radiator, by your own authority and design excellency 2012-08-20 01:21 the chinese have the advantage of anonymity ;-) 2012-08-20 01:21 2) be open-minded to having this verified by an fcc approved lab at any time, shall there be doubts about your authority 2012-08-20 01:21 no, not really 2012-08-20 01:21 it's just a non-issue, you don't realize that you yourself may very well possess even more than the 'typical' professional whatever to make this kind of statement 2012-08-20 01:21 you think the lab has some geniuses? 2012-08-20 01:21 no. but they have equipment :) 2012-08-20 01:21 and on a production line, you are dealing with component variations 2012-08-20 01:22 and even though you know all this, you can't just cut through 2012-08-20 01:22 your device will not radiate 2012-08-20 01:22 not at the level that the fcc would worry about 2012-08-20 01:22 lemme do some calculations ... 2012-08-20 01:22 so it's an 'unintentional radiator' 2012-08-20 01:22 like for example millions of cheap electronic plastic toys 2012-08-20 01:22 out of which many may actually very well radiate like hell 2012-08-20 01:23 because the 'engineers' that fumbled together those crude electronics make the absolute most ridiculous beginner mistakes you could imagine 2012-08-20 01:23 like the worst worst worst combination, like in a textbook to demonstrate how *not* to do it 2012-08-20 01:23 yet the devices are being made, shipped, sold, taxed, etc. everybody seems happy 2012-08-20 01:23 except werner :-) 2012-08-20 01:24 hmm. if i consider the high-current paths as RC filters, i get a cut-off frequency of 80 MHz. pretty high. 2012-08-20 01:25 N1ck has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 2012-08-20 01:26 but i take the message that FCC compliance checking may be something to do in parallel with other things, i.e., not something you actually busy-wait for 2012-08-20 01:27 step up 2012-08-20 01:27 your device is an unintentional radiator, at best 2012-08-20 01:27 or are you hiding something? 2012-08-20 01:27 :-) 2012-08-20 01:28 if you follow the commonly understood principles to minimize radiation, you WILL BE FINE 2012-08-20 01:28 because then you already do much more than all the chinese electronic toys that are flooding the world 2012-08-20 01:29 the only thing that radiates is your uncertainty about your own design :-) 2012-08-20 01:30 hmm. the "commonly understood principles" would be multilayer and extra load caps to drive down the frequency. designing defensively has its price. 2012-08-20 01:31 make the extra effort and buy a 2 USD chinese toy outside somewhere, if Argentina can still afford to import them 2012-08-20 01:31 take it apart 2012-08-20 01:31 take a deep breadth 2012-08-20 01:31 and arrive in the real world 2012-08-20 01:33 hmm. i also have a relatively high switching frequency in high-current paths. those toys probably don't. 2012-08-20 01:40 the test reports for the Ben are interesting. very specific design recommendations. 2012-08-20 02:06 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 02:16 rejon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 02:20 rejon has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2012-08-20 02:20 rejon_ is now known as rejon 2012-08-20 02:37 compcube has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2012-08-20 02:46 Textmode has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2012-08-20 03:09 Ayla has quit [Quit: dodo] 2012-08-20 04:56 scientes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2012-08-20 05:27 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2012-08-20 05:29 porchaso0 has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 2012-08-20 05:51 ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 2012-08-20 05:56 scientes_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 06:33 ChanServ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 06:49 kristoffer has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 06:55 scientes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2012-08-20 07:18 rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2012-08-20 07:33 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 07:35 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 07:40 ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 2012-08-20 07:49 yay 2012-08-20 07:50 wpwrak: voltage, length of *free* wires acting for antenna. all you care about 2012-08-20 07:51 get a 100nF next to each chip's VDD-GND 2012-08-20 07:51 done 2012-08-20 07:51 unless you're dealing with switched mode PSU 2012-08-20 07:52 which by design are nasty little radiators - I notice that every time my DCF77 clock refuses to sync when N810 or N900 (incl USB wallwart charger) is closer than 150cm 2012-08-20 07:54 get a multiband radio/receiver (150kHz..50MHz), see if you can find some 'carrier' that vanishes when you power down DUT. place receiver 1m from DUT. all you need for "equipment" 2012-08-20 07:56 DocScrutinizer05: that's useful, thanks =) 2012-08-20 07:56 do you have suggestions for receiver hw and sw? 2012-08-20 07:56 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 07:56 err, Sony has nice stuff 2012-08-20 07:56 will a basic RTL-SDR and gnu radio setup work? 2012-08-20 07:57 way too complicated, introduces too much unknown variables 2012-08-20 07:58 Sony ICF-SW7600GR, Sony ICF-SW35, Sony Weltempfänger Icf-sw11/s 2012-08-20 08:03 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 08:03 Sony ICF-SW7600GR looks nice, with the scan mode 2012-08-20 08:04 sony-icfsw7600gr is actually well suited for the task, continuous band from 150kHz to 30MHz 2012-08-20 08:04 the smaller ones you'll hope for 1st harmonic of some spike out of band will be in band for your receiver 2012-08-20 08:05 those "radiators" never are perfect transmitters not having any harmonics and sidebands 2012-08-20 08:07 but honestly, up to maybe 3.3V supply I'd not worry for anything without a step-up converter 2012-08-20 08:09 and the general FCC "paper" for consumer devices says: "you may experience interference from this device to any nearby radios, TV, etc. Increase distance between the two devices in that case" 2012-08-20 08:10 fair enough, huh? ;-) 2012-08-20 08:11 German regulations are way stricter here than FCC 2012-08-20 08:14 i'm based in Norway, and we just follow EEC regs 2012-08-20 08:15 the whole stuff got massively unified worldwide during last ~30 years 2012-08-20 08:16 otherwise trade was impossible 2012-08-20 08:17 30 years ago plugging in your own 600R landline phone to the wall outlet was a crime in Germany ;-) 2012-08-20 08:17 then came modems 2012-08-20 08:17 eventually modems >2400baud 2012-08-20 08:18 and lots and lots of people didn't get it why those mustn't be used in Germany while they work just fine in all the rest of the world 2012-08-20 08:18 basically back when everybody became a criminal 2012-08-20 08:18 ;-) 2012-08-20 08:18 then they relaxed stuff 2012-08-20 08:20 FAX machine not rented from german telecom and configured properly by their service dude - WOOOOOOOOOOH EVIL! ;-P 2012-08-20 08:20 600R? 2012-08-20 08:20 landline 2012-08-20 08:20 a-b 2012-08-20 08:20 no clue 2012-08-20 08:20 analog 2012-08-20 08:20 ah. 2012-08-20 08:20 but why is it called 600R? 2012-08-20 08:21 because that's the nominal line impedance 2012-08-20 08:21 that simple 2012-08-20 08:21 ChanServ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 08:21 yay 2012-08-20 08:21 freenode \o/ 2012-08-20 09:27 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 09:55 zear_ is now known as zear 2012-08-20 09:59 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 10:35 rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2012-08-20 10:52 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-08-20 10:52 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-08-20 10:57 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 10:57 Hello! 2012-08-20 10:58 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 11:05 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 11:22 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-08-20 11:39 hi 2012-08-20 11:40 hi wolfspra1l :) 2012-08-20 11:43 kristoffer_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 11:43 kristoffer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-20 11:44 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 11:59 The Wiki has a NanoNote category and a Ben NanoNote category, the latter with significantly more pages. I guess we should at least put the former category's pages in the latter category unless they're too general for the model-specific category. 2012-08-20 12:05 definitely, merge together into the bigger one sounds like a good idea 2012-08-20 12:05 thanks for the initiative! 2012-08-20 12:10 There aren't as many pages as I thought, thankfully. Most of the items are images which I may also try and recategorise, but I was mostly thinking of the convenience of seeing all useful resources in a single category. 2012-08-20 12:11 It also helps me to find stuff out that I didn't already know. ;-) 2012-08-20 12:14 I got numpy working at the weekend, by the way. I think people asked for that once upon a time. The catch is that you need to build it with eglibc, and there are some issues with eglibc that I need to look into. 2012-08-20 12:17 I suppose that the relevant functionality could be ported to uClibc from eglibc, but that's somewhat outside my experience and expertise, currently. 2012-08-20 12:38 jurting has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2012-08-20 13:10 news from the russian sonar-manufacturing company 2012-08-20 13:11 the main employee has ordered 4-layer boards with 0.1mm wide traces and p&p machine mounting 2012-08-20 13:11 for 0m5 RUR (around 15k USD) 2012-08-20 13:12 and he _accidentally_ swapped top and bottom layers 2012-08-20 13:15 =) 2012-08-20 13:18 pang: you probably have missed the immense stupidity of entire thing 2012-08-20 13:18 grep on http://irclog.whitequark.org by keyword "sonar" 2012-08-20 13:26 whitequark: that is the one where grindars works? 2012-08-20 13:28 uwe_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2012-08-20 13:29 uwe_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 13:35 yep 2012-08-20 13:35 Openfree has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 13:36 wolfspra1l: The EU shop on the NanoNote page doesn't sell hardware any more as far as I am aware. Should we link to other resellers instead or is this going to offend someone? :-) 2012-08-20 13:37 lol, I remember that sonar with hole in case for crystal. 2012-08-20 13:47 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 13:55 paul_boddie, I agree. link to other resellers. :) 2012-08-20 13:55 xiangfu: Done already! People can always revert my changes. ;-) 2012-08-20 13:56 paul_boddie, great. 2012-08-20 13:56 xiangfu: Did you ever look at eglibc, by the way? No-one seems to want to talk about it. :-) 2012-08-20 13:57 paul_boddie, eglibc, no. 2012-08-20 13:57 eglibc, since the openwrt using uClibc by default. so I followed openwrt. using uClibc. I have no idea which one is good or bad. 2012-08-20 13:58 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 13:58 * xiangfu search eglibc vs uclibc 2012-08-20 13:58 I had thought about trying the latest "buildroot" to see whether I could fix other stuff as well, although my initial aim was to have as much working stuff on the NanoNote as possible, so I went for the 2012-04 build. 2012-08-20 14:00 "The EGLIBC maintainers hope that EGLIBC will be binary compatible with GLIBC" 2012-08-20 14:00 It probably should be as it's derived from glibc. 2012-08-20 14:03 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2012-08-20 14:05 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 14:14 afaik they are merging the changes back now finally 2012-08-20 14:17 qwebirc35176 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 14:17 Hi for all 2012-08-20 14:17 The link sources of the page http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/qi-kernel/ is broken for a lot of days... 2012-08-20 14:17 can you take a look at this? 2012-08-20 14:17 qwebirc35176, Hi 2012-08-20 14:18 that is a known bug. 2012-08-20 14:18 xiangfu: Tanks for the answer 2012-08-20 14:18 the web is broken. 2012-08-20 14:18 xiangfu: There is a way to I see the code in browser? 2012-08-20 14:19 qwebirc35176, you can still download all qi-kernel code by git clone: 'git clone git://projects.qi-hardware.com/qi-kernel.git' 2012-08-20 14:20 But I'm in a Windows machine, my boring job obligates me to use this ¬¬ 2012-08-20 14:20 and I'm doing a radio player for OD, and I have some ideas 2012-08-20 14:20 and I need to take a look at the code... 2012-08-20 14:20 =/ 2012-08-20 14:21 you can download a windows version git of cause. :) 2012-08-20 14:24 qwebirc35176, I just update the http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/qi-kernel/ page. notice people download code by using git clone command 2012-08-20 14:27 Hum, that the only way I trhink =D 2012-08-20 14:28 xiangfu: So, what do you think to remove the source entry of the web page? 2012-08-20 14:28 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2012-08-20 14:28 DocScrutinizer06 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 14:29 xiangfu: Because I think that more people will try to see the code at web =D 2012-08-20 14:30 qwebirc35176, thanks. done 2012-08-20 14:30 xiangfu: Sorry, your note told the people that web is broken, thamks a lot xiangfu ! 2012-08-20 14:30 qwebirc35176 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 2012-08-20 14:34 notice that after I review the page. all much better 2012-08-20 14:34 Interesting: https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9675 - I hope to get eglibc 2.16.1 to build, though, as something went wrong with 2.15, I think. 2012-08-20 15:04 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-20 15:17 LunaVorax: Which of these pages is the best: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/How_to_reflash/fr or http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Comment_reflasher ? My French isn't good enough to make a judgement, but you seem to have written one of them. 2012-08-20 15:19 I'm reading them 2012-08-20 15:20 paul_boddie, http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/How_to_reflash/fr needs a little fixing but it's definitely better 2012-08-20 15:22 It's good, I fixed http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/How_to_reflash/fr 2012-08-20 15:22 LunaVorax: Things like choosing between the imperative and infinitive is always best done by a native speaker, I think. 2012-08-20 15:22 Maybe 2012-08-20 15:22 I have the advantage of having a French teacher as a mother 2012-08-20 15:22 :D 2012-08-20 15:22 So in any cases I can ask her 2012-08-20 15:23 Plus, she isn't familiar with computer science so I can use her as noob-proof test 2012-08-20 15:23 That reminds me I should find time to help you translate the wiki 2012-08-20 15:23 I was translating some things some time ago and College got in the way 2012-08-20 15:23 OK, thanks for the quick edit! I used to occasionally write simple French documentation a long time ago, and probably just followed the house style. I'll redirect Comment_reflasher to How to reflash/fr. 2012-08-20 15:24 paul_boddie, sounds like a very good idead 2012-08-20 15:24 lead 2012-08-20 15:24 dammit idead 2012-08-20 15:24 .... 2012-08-20 15:24 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2012-08-20 15:24 antgreen has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 15:24 It's too hot to type on the keyboard 2012-08-20 15:27 What do you think of the TI CC11XX radios? 2012-08-20 15:27 Btw paul_boddie how did you know I spoke french? 2012-08-20 15:28 I saw your username in the history for the How to reflash/fr page. :-) 2012-08-20 15:30 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 15:30 Oh right 2012-08-20 15:30 The translation sounded familiar... 2012-08-20 15:34 You made the right choice preferring your own page, then. ;-) 2012-08-20 15:43 Hahaha 2012-08-20 15:43 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 15:43 It would have been funny if I did not 2012-08-20 15:44 emeb has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 15:45 GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 15:53 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-20 16:01 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 16:09 xiangfu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-20 16:10 Openfree has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2012-08-20 16:50 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-20 16:53 paul_boddie has left #qi-hardware ["Kopete 0.11.3 : http://kopete.kde.org"] 2012-08-20 16:57 LunaVorax has quit [Quit: Quitte] 2012-08-20 17:02 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 17:06 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-08-20 17:12 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 17:17 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-08-20 17:19 rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2012-08-20 17:19 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-20 17:23 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 17:24 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 17:34 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 17:51 Ayla is now known as AwAyla 2012-08-20 18:01 GNUtoo has quit [Quit: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.] 2012-08-20 18:03 ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 2012-08-20 18:32 ChanServ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 18:39 ChanServ has quit [*.net *.split] 2012-08-20 19:02 ChanServ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-20 19:15 Fabricatorz: Linux User's Group of Davis tonight with @hypermodern about @openfontlibrary @qihardware and @sharism http://t.co/yezBy3WV... 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