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2012-08-19 02:35 <wolfspra1l> programming question: any downside to using designated c99-style initializers to initialize union members?
2012-08-19 02:35 <wolfspra1l> I haven't done that before but c99 feels kinda stable and well supported now, no?
2012-08-19 02:35 <wolfspra1l> unless I find a reason not to, I'll go ahead with .xxx = ...
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2012-08-19 03:37 <whitequark> there was some really weird incompatibility with some software
2012-08-19 03:37 <whitequark> but if you stick to gcc/clang it should be fine
2012-08-19 03:38 <whitequark> hm
2012-08-19 03:38 <whitequark> I think that was armcc... not sure actually
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2012-08-19 07:56 <wpwrak> wolfspra1l: hmm, when you take something to FCC approval checking, how does that work ? let's say a simple circuit without radio. i.e., how "finished" does the device have to be ? and do you send the device to the test lab when it has reached that state of maturity or do you send them development prototypes to accelerate the process ?
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2012-08-19 09:44 <LunaVorax> Hello!
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2012-08-19 10:39 <wolfspra1l> testing, hmm
2012-08-19 10:40 <wolfspra1l> wpwrak: that's a long story :-)
2012-08-19 10:40 <wolfspra1l> the FCC works with approved labs
2012-08-19 10:40 <wolfspra1l> so for authentic fcc testing, you need to work with an approved lab
2012-08-19 10:40 <wolfspra1l> there may well be one in Buenos Aires, I don't know. or maybe not. in China they are everywhere (the real ones, in addition to a flood of fake ones)
2012-08-19 10:41 <wolfspra1l> mostly those labs (=companies) are offering all sorts of engineering and consulting services, so what you use them for is really your own decision
2012-08-19 10:41 <wolfspra1l> they love to sell you as much as possible, naturally
2012-08-19 10:42 <wolfspra1l> once you passed the testing, you can still make modifications to your design or production process, but at which point exactly this falls out of the first testing then and a re-testing is necessary is a grey area and comes down to your own understanding of quality, at some point
2012-08-19 10:42 <wolfspra1l> some people are just letting whatever 'brick' pass the testing, and sell something entirely differently
2012-08-19 10:42 <wolfspra1l> and nobody will ever check or care
2012-08-19 10:43 <wolfspra1l> I've seen cases where people starting selling a product that was totally different under the name of an old one because "renaming is expensive"
2012-08-19 10:44 <wolfspra1l> other take the testing more serious, and once they make a change (in design, production process or sw) that they think might affect the test result, they will voluntarily resubmit and want to work toward a better product anyway
2012-08-19 10:44 <wolfspra1l> the external engineering is not too different from any in-house engineering anyway, since a normal company will pay their employees, they may as well pay an outside service provider
2012-08-19 10:45 <wolfspra1l> I think the category you are looking at is 'unintentional radiator'
2012-08-19 10:45 <wolfspra1l> you should be able to get a certification for about 1000 USD or so, and yes it really only makes sense with case imho
2012-08-19 10:45 <wolfspra1l> that's about it :-)
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2012-08-19 13:09 <wpwrak> (long story) yeah :) at OM, i got to see the tips of that iceberg, but never had the entire picture.
2012-08-19 13:09 <wpwrak> (unintentional radiator) yup :)
2012-08-19 13:11 <wpwrak> so for a completely new design, perhaps it would make sense to have an early prototype "pre-certified" to make sure it doesn't have major issues. USD 1k isn't all that bad anyway.
2012-08-19 13:17 <wpwrak> how much time does such a certification (or attempt) usually take, from sending the device until the result is known ? i think there's an extra delay until the actual certificate is issued, isn't there ?
2012-08-19 13:36 <wolfspra1l> calling it a day, but quick... it mostly comes down to getting an 'appointment'/free time for their lab
2012-08-19 13:37 <wolfspra1l> which can be anywhere from a few days later if they are not very busy to a month later in high season
2012-08-19 13:37 <wolfspra1l> I think if it's a lab you never worked with before, it will be difficult to arrange it all remotely, too many communication issues
2012-08-19 13:37 <wpwrak> ah yes, better to avoid the pre-xmas rush :)
2012-08-19 13:37 <wolfspra1l> the key is to find a friendly small lab that is officially certified as a FCC lab and then start working with them
2012-08-19 13:38 <wolfspra1l> yes but the xmas rush may be around now actually :-)
2012-08-19 13:38 <wpwrak> i suppose you know such (a) lab(s) ?
2012-08-19 13:38 <wolfspra1l> last time I worked with one in nanjing, the docs are uploaded somewhere, which I can locate tomorrow
2012-08-19 13:38 <wpwrak> (xmas) hmm. people have too much money. they should spend it only once per year :)
2012-08-19 13:38 <wolfspra1l> but I do think you should first look locally, ideally even in buenos aires
2012-08-19 13:39 <wolfspra1l> well the factories are in xmas season now, more or less
2012-08-19 13:39 <wolfspra1l> and the cert is always last minute...
2012-08-19 13:39 <wolfspra1l> but I haven't worked with labs in a while, not really up to date now
2012-08-19 13:39 <wolfspra1l> an unintentional radiator will not get an FCC ID
2012-08-19 13:40 <wolfspra1l> so I think you can keep this all very low key
2012-08-19 13:40 <wolfspra1l> in fact most people would not bother at all...
2012-08-19 13:40 <wolfspra1l> definitely not on the hobbyist or even other 'open hardware' products without naming them now (or pointing fingers...)
2012-08-19 13:40 <wolfspra1l> it's more 'in style' to not be certified :-)
2012-08-19 13:41 <wolfspra1l> especially for unintentional radiators (the others most people in that scene wouldn't touch anyway)
2012-08-19 13:41 <wolfspra1l> why do you think it might radiate at all?
2012-08-19 13:42 <wolfspra1l> you worry too much :-)
2012-08-19 13:42 <wolfspra1l> unfortunately I heard horror stories about FCC labs in Europe asking for 25k usd upfront etc.
2012-08-19 13:42 <wolfspra1l> that is quite possible, given that they want to keep the whole flood of hobbyist/garage projects away that would never turn into good customers anyway
2012-08-19 13:43 <wolfspra1l> in China the volume is so big in all this, and there are so many (real and fake) labs, they take the small fish as well
2012-08-19 13:43 <wpwrak> oh, anything can radiate :) all it takes is switching a few signals quickly enough ... (i think the limits go down to pretty low frequencies)
2012-08-19 13:44 <wolfspra1l> sure I know, but still. I just try to put it into perspective.
2012-08-19 13:44 <wolfspra1l> that's why it's called 'unintentional radiator'
2012-08-19 13:44 <wpwrak> i suspect that, if i find anything here, it'll be prohibitively priced
2012-08-19 13:44 <wolfspra1l> theoretically I would assume mostly everything radiates, at whatever frequency etc. but does it matter? who cares? etc.
2012-08-19 13:45 <wolfspra1l> possible, yes
2012-08-19 13:45 <wolfspra1l> but it will be hard to remote-work with a chinese lab especially first-time
2012-08-19 13:45 <wpwrak> yeha, one would need an EE on the ground to act as interface
2012-08-19 13:47 <wpwrak> it's basically a form of poverty tax: with proper equipment and a bit of time to learn the rules, one could do all these tests by oneself. that way, there wouldn't be surprises from the certification lab.
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> maybe you do check, I think on the fcc website they have a list of their certified labs somewhere
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> hundreds I think, or more
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> but again, maybe you don't need all this, really
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> you would not get an FCC ID anyway
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> so you only get some paperwork that shows that your device meets the requirements for unintentional radiators
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> even when importing into the US, there are a number of exceptiosn (aside from just incorrect paperwork which many do as well) to get devices without FCC whatever into the country
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> just read what sparkfun and friends write about those little nasty paper-whatever :-)
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> for unintentional radiators, I think you are trying to be too perfect
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> really
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> people build multi-million USD business with intentional radiators and won't spend a penny (or second) on any of this
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> businesses
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> k getting crazy tired here, backlog tomorrow
2012-08-19 13:48 <wolfspra1l> I will find my old cert paperwork for the ben (which is uploaded somewhere), and also a list of labs maybe
2012-08-19 13:49 <wolfspra1l> but tomorrow...
2012-08-19 13:49 <wolfspra1l> n8
2012-08-19 13:49 <wpwrak> thanks ! sweet dreams ! :)
2012-08-19 13:50 <wpwrak> funny. fcc.gov has a bad certificate ;-)
2012-08-19 14:00 <wpwrak> this seems to be the place with the "known" labs: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm
2012-08-19 14:01 <wpwrak> but there's not a single one in the whole region. not even in brazil or mexico. so this is of limited use.
2012-08-19 14:02 <wpwrak> may well be that everything that gets fcc-certified around here just gets sent to some lab in the US, maybe with a friendly interface person who speaks fluent spanish and/or portugese :)
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2012-08-19 14:19 <larsc> ust as a side note, the ben cert paperwork is here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/certification/2009_09_30_final/
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2012-08-19 14:22 <wpwrak> thanks !
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2012-08-19 16:26 <qi-bot> The build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120818-1408
2012-08-19 16:28 <paul_boddie> OpenWrt really doesn't seem to like Qt and Gtk+ these days.
2012-08-19 16:32 <paul_boddie> Anyone here have any eglibc experience? I'm trying to figure out the real cause of "libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work". I think Ubuntu switched to eglibc and now there are thousands of upset people on the Internet.
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