2012-08-05 00:02 hmm 2012-08-05 00:08 guanucoluis has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 00:30 GNUtoo has quit [Quit: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.] 2012-08-05 00:39 qi-hw servers in maitenance? 2012-08-05 00:40 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 00:44 GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 00:45 down again? 2012-08-05 00:46 seems so, yeah 2012-08-05 00:46 ok, back to working on replacement server :-) 2012-08-05 00:46 the fpga work was so good that I procrastinated on the server again... 2012-08-05 00:59 he, I think it's coming back up -> back to exciting fpga first, *then* new server :-) 2012-08-05 00:59 kristianpaul: thanks a lot for the heads up! 2012-08-05 00:59 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 01:00 hi qi-bot, good to have you back :-) 2012-08-05 01:08 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 01:11 what's the trouble with the server ? aging hardware ? 2012-08-05 01:13 don't know 2012-08-05 01:14 there are too many pieces that I don't have full visibility into, and/or don't want to (too much effort) 2012-08-05 01:14 the kernel is not 100% bugfree I would think 2012-08-05 01:14 there are 2 kvm instances running 2012-08-05 01:14 there's a raid-whatever mirror underneath, and lvm 2012-08-05 01:14 and there are 1 in 1^x hardware errors, as we all know 2012-08-05 01:14 dram, hdd issues, etc. 2012-08-05 01:15 of course I could improve all this, but why 2012-08-05 01:15 we are not operating facebook or twitter with millions of users active at any moment 2012-08-05 01:15 hmm. so you'll just migrate to a new machine and hope for the best. well, this often works :) 2012-08-05 01:15 yep 2012-08-05 01:15 in fact I have that machine already 2012-08-05 01:15 but when the old one comes back up I immediately stop working on the migration :-) 2012-08-05 01:15 he he 2012-08-05 01:16 ah, what happened to german discipline :) 2012-08-05 01:16 I use the chance of a new server also to upgrade my knowledge 2012-08-05 01:16 this time for example I finally make the big ipv6 push 2012-08-05 01:16 I will first set it all up wtih ipv6 only, and then route ipv4 into it 2012-08-05 01:16 hah. i'm not even sure if my isp supports it :) 2012-08-05 01:16 in 2012, it's about time 2012-08-05 01:20 same here, but I mean on the server 2012-08-05 01:22 woah :) no sign of IPv6 ... but i found this: http://www.fibertelevolution.com.ar/ 2012-08-05 01:22 * kristianpaul is waiting his isp to support ipv6 as well so i can migrate server to new home 2012-08-05 01:23 and worldwide AAAA dns support.. 2012-08-05 01:23 well 2012-08-05 01:23 30 Mbps !! and they present it as if they had just created the iphone :) 2012-08-05 01:24 I tough you had used to our nice adverticement methods :-) 2012-08-05 01:24 rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 01:24 s/nice/clever 2012-08-05 01:24 kristianpaul meant: "I tough you had used to our clever adverticement methods :-)" 2012-08-05 01:24 Ayla has quit [Quit: dodo] 2012-08-05 01:25 yeah, save on tech, spend on marketing. actually a reasonable approach :) 2012-08-05 01:29 pabs3 has quit [Quit: Don't rest until all the world is paved in moss and greenery.] 2012-08-05 01:52 LunaVorax has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 02:01 nikescar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-05 02:01 nikescar has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 03:27 GNUtoo has quit [Quit: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.] 2012-08-05 04:09 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 04:13 xwalk_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 04:49 zear has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-08-05 04:51 Fallenou has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-08-05 04:51 uwe_mobile has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-08-05 04:51 cxadams has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-08-05 04:51 lindi- has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2012-08-05 04:52 uwe_mobile__ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 04:52 Fallenou has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 04:52 lindi- has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 04:54 cxadams has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 04:57 zear has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 05:09 GCW has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 05:19 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-08-05 05:32 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 05:40 Does anyone know where I could locate newest linux source code for Ingenic jz4770 or a Programmers Manual 2012-08-05 05:41 If so please pm me 2012-08-05 05:43 or e-mail me gcwnow@gmail.com 2012-08-05 05:59 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 06:06 the only one public source that I've found some time ago. http://git.varjanta.com/Ingenic-JZ4770-Android-Kernel/.git/tree 2012-08-05 06:26 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-08-05 06:39 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 06:45 GCW has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2012-08-05 06:45 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-08-05 07:03 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 07:10 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 07:18 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-08-05 07:32 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 07:38 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-08-05 07:50 GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 07:52 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-05 07:53 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 08:33 kristianpaul has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-05 08:54 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 09:00 scientes has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2012-08-05 09:14 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 09:15 Hi! 2012-08-05 09:40 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2012-08-05 09:49 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 09:49 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 09:50 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 09:52 erghh where is weather forecast when you need it.. 2012-08-05 10:02 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 10:08 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 10:09 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2012-08-05 10:28 Ornotermes has quit [Quit: leaving] 2012-08-05 10:34 GNUtoo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 10:38 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 10:42 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 10:42 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 10:42 kristianpaul has quit [Changing host] 2012-08-05 10:49 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-05 10:50 GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 11:15 Ayla has quit [Quit: leaving] 2012-08-05 11:24 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 11:27 Jurting has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2012-08-05 11:34 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 11:39 Jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 11:40 Jurting has quit [Client Quit] 2012-08-05 12:02 uwe_mobile__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2012-08-05 12:30 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 12:30 kyak has quit [Changing host] 2012-08-05 12:30 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 12:44 uwe_mobile has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 12:51 kuribas has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 12:55 Ayla has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-05 12:56 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 13:02 GNUtoo has quit [Quit: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.] 2012-08-05 13:09 LunaVorax has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 13:13 kyak_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 13:13 kyak has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-05 13:51 rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-05 13:51 GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 14:03 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 14:07 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 14:07 kristianpaul has quit [Changing host] 2012-08-05 14:07 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 14:07 Fallenou: found it ? ;-) 2012-08-05 14:12 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2012-08-05 14:12 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 14:12 DocScrutinizer has quit [Disconnected by services] 2012-08-05 14:12 DocScrutinizer has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 14:27 kristianpaul has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-05 14:30 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 14:30 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 14:43 GNUtoo has quit [Quit: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.] 2012-08-05 14:45 Ayla is now known as AwAyla 2012-08-05 15:04 wpwrak: yes =) thx for making a fool of me, I kind of deserved it ! 2012-08-05 15:04 lazyness... 2012-08-05 15:05 sorry, couldn't resist :) it's just so easy ... 2012-08-05 15:07 hey there 2012-08-05 15:08 btw.. on ti chips: reading the datasheet and the register level documentation isnt enough. you HAVE to read the application notes. ALL of them and importantly: check out all the small notes. they are extremely important from time to time 2012-08-05 15:09 and the silicon errata 2012-08-05 15:09 compared to samsung or similar stuff its hard work getting these beasts to work. 2012-08-05 15:09 there are a lot of silicon bugs 2012-08-05 15:09 ack. 2012-08-05 15:09 roh: what hidden gems would one find in the app notes ? 2012-08-05 15:09 * Fallenou is working with omap3 2012-08-05 15:09 on ti one can smell the shift-registers, while samsung hides em all quite well 2012-08-05 15:10 wpwrak: bugs, nondocumented, enforced register orders (can only be touched in that order) etc.. such stuff. 2012-08-05 15:10 ti is hell to work with compared to other stuff. 2012-08-05 15:10 ah, nice :) 2012-08-05 15:10 wpwrak: next time try this one : lmgtfy.com/?q=ti+am3352 ;) 2012-08-05 15:10 Fallenou: i didn't want to make it so easy for you ;-) 2012-08-05 15:10 ahah 2012-08-05 15:10 anyhow. if you really want to do a product with an imagination gpu on board, then i am out. 2012-08-05 15:11 roh: you still have the dumb frame buffer, don't you ? 2012-08-05 15:11 i have enough foss work in front of me and or get payed for it, i will not waste any minute of my life for such crap 2012-08-05 15:11 wpwrak: no. 2012-08-05 15:11 wpwrak: usually not. 2012-08-05 15:11 wpwrak: and even paying for the silicon is NOT ok. 2012-08-05 15:12 duh. as if the "microsoft tax" had prevented us from using laptops. 2012-08-05 15:12 its live buying nvidia chips. its NOT giving the vendors the proper incentive. 2012-08-05 15:12 think of it this way: if we can make a ti-nanonote with the help of ti, it'll be pretty easy to turn this into a, say, allwinner-nanonote afterwards. 2012-08-05 15:12 wpwrak: it hasent. and no, i did not buy windows last few times. 2012-08-05 15:13 wpwrak: i think you are much too eaten by the ti-marketing-bullshit 2012-08-05 15:13 i don't particularly care about ti marketing 2012-08-05 15:13 ti hasent made a single foss useable design the last few years. 2012-08-05 15:13 i'm interested in someone financing qi-hw development 2012-08-05 15:13 their ´documenton is sub-level compared to what i see from freescale and samsung 2012-08-05 15:13 because we're all running out of reserves 2012-08-05 15:14 they are much less open when it comes to details, and they are known to 'fall into your back' when you need it the least. 2012-08-05 15:14 ah.. and their chips are known not to work without the help of their FAE and lots of pain and time. 2012-08-05 15:14 yeah, i heard that one :) 2012-08-05 15:14 their support even for a big company is shit 2012-08-05 15:15 as in 'sit down with their FAE to get routing changed' without any documentable reasons... sucks. 2012-08-05 15:15 i am on the phone with a TI account manager each week 2012-08-05 15:15 its not that they are not trying. but their products are just crap. 2012-08-05 15:15 maybe the AM335x aren't all that hairy, though. after all, they're only mid-range by today's standards. 2012-08-05 15:15 he just buys time and say bullshit about his progress on fixing ours bugs 2012-08-05 15:15 wpwrak: doesnt matter. i would choose a freescale or samsung soc over them blindly. 2012-08-05 15:16 the cpu choice would be determined by who feeds the project :) 2012-08-05 15:16 Fallenou: i have never seen ti accept that a bug is theirs, even when provided proof.- 2012-08-05 15:16 GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 15:16 s/who/whom who 2012-08-05 15:16 wpwrak meant: "the cpu choice would be determined by whom who feeds the project :)" 2012-08-05 15:16 wpwrak: anyhow. any ti project cannot be foss. 2012-08-05 15:16 atleast not with the chips they have. 2012-08-05 15:16 roh: they accepted to say they are out of jedec spec 2012-08-05 15:16 for omap3630 2012-08-05 15:17 Fallenou: whohoo... 2012-08-05 15:17 which implies troubles with several ram chips 2012-08-05 15:17 at precise freq 2012-08-05 15:17 nah.. its so much work and pain to do a project/product. i do not need additional weight. 2012-08-05 15:17 as far as i can tell, the LCD controller should be able to provide a dumb frame buffer. and that part is documented. 2012-08-05 15:17 wpwrak: yes 2012-08-05 15:17 just drawing to framebuffer is fine 2012-08-05 15:17 wpwrak: doesnt matter. either you can use the accel. or you choose another chip. 2012-08-05 15:18 you have linux framebuffer which works 2012-08-05 15:18 just forget about opengl 2012-08-05 15:18 we don't need accel at those resolutions. hey, even my desktop doesn't have 3D accel. 2012-08-05 15:18 wpwrak: you need accel. even for blitting. 2012-08-05 15:18 wpwrak: without its painfully slow. 2012-08-05 15:19 remember gta01. considerably weaker hardware. and graphics speed was just fine in the end. 2012-08-05 15:19 rz2k: whoever is maintaining that git is doing some weird things to the commits 2012-08-05 15:19 and yes, i also only use 2d desktops. but yes i need accel. why? for yuv conversion and bitblit with keying and alpha. 2012-08-05 15:19 date and author info are lost 2012-08-05 15:20 wpwrak: you forget that on the moko even the screen-refresh ate 1/3rd of our total memory bandwith already due to the 'big screen' 2012-08-05 15:21 see ! 2012-08-05 15:22 the AM335x supports DDR3. and DMA seems pretty flexible, so even if you can't do blit with the CPU, you have a plan B 2012-08-05 15:22 anyhow. making a product which is in the same market as the efika (which are there and done) will be more than hard. 2012-08-05 15:22 and less free as ti. 2012-08-05 15:22 eh... i mean.. ti will be less free afaik (due to details, also imx has pvr) 2012-08-05 15:23 http://www.genesi-tech.com/products/smartbook 2012-08-05 15:24 from the discussion, i gather there are a number of undesirable properties, most of them well-known. but nothing that would make such a device un-viable. 2012-08-05 15:25 wpwrak: the major thing i just named: market already taken. 2012-08-05 15:25 you would have to beat a 200 euro product 2012-08-05 15:25 for me the question is whether TI would provide the resources for such a project, accepting it to be open (according to qi-hw standards) for the rest of its structure and parts 2012-08-05 15:26 that's a different class of device 2012-08-05 15:26 the allwinner cpu is at least interresting 2012-08-05 15:26 ti and freescale are both extremely expensive. 2012-08-05 15:27 i wonder about the allwinner. where is the documentation ? 2012-08-05 15:27 me too.. i only find linux ports 2012-08-05 15:27 i guess its chinese 2012-08-05 15:27 but atleast it has a mali-gpu .. which means its from arm and needs only one reverse-engineering, not a new one every time 2012-08-05 15:28 heh ;-) 2012-08-05 15:28 does powervr change so often ? 2012-08-05 15:29 wpwrak: yes and no. there are some -zig revisions 2012-08-05 15:30 and the company is quite extreme on legal cases. 2012-08-05 15:30 the mali stuff will be less stressfull from that corner afaik 2012-08-05 15:30 hunting reverse engineers ? 2012-08-05 15:30 yes. 2012-08-05 15:31 well, eventually someone will crack the secret ... :) 2012-08-05 15:31 http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html#nabble-td7561473 2012-08-05 15:32 it's not as if people couldn't figure out how to work together on things that must avoid the light of day :) 2012-08-05 15:32 wpwrak: anyhow.. why license a gpu which is closed and even pay for it? 2012-08-05 15:32 thats not sensible behaviour 2012-08-05 15:33 my reasoning is based on TI financing the project. if they don't, it's obviously a no-go. 2012-08-05 15:34 wpwrak: you know that intel had the sgx in one of their products? 2012-08-05 15:34 which they dropped completely because of that 2012-08-05 15:34 if they finance it, this would allow us to make that ben successor we've always talked about but never started with. 2012-08-05 15:34 maybe intel are smarter than ti, at least in that regard ? :) 2012-08-05 15:35 the poulsbo chipset 2012-08-05 15:35 also, if ti finance such a project, that would completely offset the extra cost of the gpu. that is, unless we sell millions of units. 2012-08-05 15:35 intel seems to have a 'need to write open drivers or release datasheets' paradigm, which they couldnt do with sgx, so they remove the product in the process 2012-08-05 15:36 in which case, we'd of course have the means to change the design to use whatever chip we truly like. 2012-08-05 15:36 yes, intel are very friendly 2012-08-05 15:36 too bad they're stuck with x86 2012-08-05 15:36 ack. 2012-08-05 15:36 well.. sometimes friendly, sometimes just good-willed 2012-08-05 15:37 for some stuff there is no documentation, just drivers (even open ones) 2012-08-05 15:37 nowadays if I would ever want to buy a notebook, that'll be an Ultrabook 2012-08-05 15:37 maybe they just didn't get around to writing proper docs 2012-08-05 15:37 because it awesomely works with Linux out of the box. 2012-08-05 15:37 not to mention that they tend to generally have quite good hardware. 2012-08-05 15:38 * roh buys 5 year old thinkpads. because they work great and are only a few hundred euros for hw which doesnt get built that way anymore 2012-08-05 15:38 well, I think I'll get myself an Asus UX31E with i7 2012-08-05 15:38 I need quite a lot of CPU power for my work 2012-08-05 15:38 roh: R61/T61? 2012-08-05 15:38 ti should also feel some pressure on the gpu. the android customer base if getting increasingly unhappy with the update situation and binary-only drivers don't exactly help. (of course, there are many more factors) 2012-08-05 15:38 larsc: t60p etc. 2012-08-05 15:39 and Ivy Bridge graphics is finally something that can be called a GPU. well, this is offtopic anyway. 2012-08-05 15:39 no R series (plastic crap) and no 61 series (nvidia) 2012-08-05 15:39 magnesium frame and intel/amd chipsets 2012-08-05 15:40 and screens with resolution for men without glasses. 2012-08-05 15:40 netbooks are also nice. disposable computers. and with enough cost pressure to eliminate any fancy proprietary stuff quite rapidly ;-) 2012-08-05 15:40 i had tought I had hd a T61, but since it had a intel graphics card it must have been T60 2012-08-05 15:40 wpwrak: AC100 was a... nice try. 2012-08-05 15:40 it was cheap and it also had Nvidia Tegra 2012-08-05 15:40 nuff said 2012-08-05 15:41 http://tegra.enodev.org/ 2012-08-05 15:41 (translates to: "No fucking drivers! Throw out that crap.") 2012-08-05 15:41 whitequark: i bet that all of that cheap netbook crap is nonworking defective stuff in a short time. 2012-08-05 15:41 it's still running, but the screen hinges have broken multiple times 2012-08-05 15:41 whitequark: just wait 3-4 years 2012-08-05 15:41 roh: exactly 2012-08-05 15:42 I had a Toshiba netbook, and southbridge died after half a year 2012-08-05 15:42 i still use the same machine i worked on at openmoko 2012-08-05 15:42 now I have a Samsung one (not me actually, given it to a friend), and it works for 2.5 years already 2012-08-05 15:42 not sure how long it'll last 2012-08-05 15:42 roh: well, for me, upgrade from 1+ year old Core2 to 0 year old i7 does matter much, so I upgrade frequently. 2012-08-05 15:43 and the hammerhead gps story healed me when it comes to binary drivers 2012-08-05 15:43 whitequark: whatfor? 2012-08-05 15:43 roh: 1. compiling stuff 2. writing very high-level software in Ruby. 2012-08-05 15:43 whitequark: i only find io too slow (only up to some 30-70mbyte/sec) .. cpu... well... 2012-08-05 15:43 bwahahahaha 2012-08-05 15:44 ok.. forget it. i only do C and python 2012-08-05 15:44 roh: try writing LLVM in python and you'll understand what I mean. 2012-08-05 15:44 that's basically what I did in Ruby. 2012-08-05 15:44 still bad idea to use ruby for that 2012-08-05 15:44 not at all 2012-08-05 15:44 besides... its a notebook. if you need power.. thats what rackmounted hw is for 2012-08-05 15:44 developer cycles are way more important than processor cycles 2012-08-05 15:44 (powervr vs. gnu) well, that's the gnu side (rightly) being worried. doesn't say anything about imagination having issues any threats 2012-08-05 15:45 roh: it's noninteractive software. the fact that I can write a sophisticated SSA transformation in less than 200 LOC _does_ matter a lot 2012-08-05 15:45 the fact that it'll execute for minutes does not, mostly 2012-08-05 15:45 I even have map/reduce for the cases where you have >1 core/machine. 2012-08-05 15:46 roh: (rackmounted hw) not if you travel much. I do, and I work from... strange places sometimes 2012-08-05 15:46 and there is no internet there? 2012-08-05 15:47 sometimes there isn't (~20kbps UMTS with 1000+ms latency) 2012-08-05 15:47 it's as much as you can get anywhere outside of Moscow if you don't have a dedicated (LAN/ADSL) line 2012-08-05 15:47 when it's not snowing 2012-08-05 15:47 yep 2012-08-05 15:48 your bandwith is snow-dependant? 2012-08-05 15:49 roh: I dunno how 2g/3g works in your country, but here you're lucky if you have 3g _in a center of a big city_, and even there it's crap. 2012-08-05 15:49 and yes, it's snow-dependent 2012-08-05 15:49 and luck-dependent 2012-08-05 15:49 ;) pun aside.. i am used to quiet computers... even that c2d is quite loud 2012-08-05 15:49 a few days ago 3g just stopped working in the place where I live 2012-08-05 15:49 maybe some piece of shit at the tower died, I dunno 2012-08-05 15:49 happens all the time. 2012-08-05 15:50 .oO(but putin loves you all so much) *scnr* 2012-08-05 15:50 er, not only 3g but 2g internet too. 2012-08-05 15:50 if I could get out of Russia right at this precise moment, I won't think even once. 2012-08-05 15:51 whats the issue? passport? 2012-08-05 15:51 probably also depends on whether the girl at the switchboard had the right quantity of vodka for breakfast. too much or too little and she'll misroute the packets. 2012-08-05 15:52 roh: I'm 19 with no university degree, which means if I lose my current job I'll probably have a hard time finding another one, and yes, there are some problems with passport due to obscure details of russian law. 2012-08-05 15:53 the company I'm currently working for is absolutely fine with me working from any other point on earth, which is good. 2012-08-05 15:53 wpwrak: http://e2e.ti.com/support/dsp/omap_applications_processors/f/42/t/89852.aspx 2012-08-05 15:54 wpwrak: in short: ti fucked up their own hawkboard evb design and need to respin it completely (routing issues or so between soc and ram) and recommends other evalboards in the meantime 2012-08-05 15:54 "recommended layout recommendations" ;-)) 2012-08-05 15:54 whitequark: well.. sounds good and bad 2012-08-05 15:56 if the project was sponsored by ti, i wouldn't worry all that much about this sort of design weaknesses. even if it should turn out in the end that the chip is broken beyond repair, we'd still have gathered valuable experience in other areas. 2012-08-05 15:57 it all depends on the angle from which you view the issues 2012-08-05 15:57 roh: I hope to resolve the latter in a year or so, and a diploma can be bought. (I'm not going to waste 4+ years on 80% shit I'll never actually use and 20% shit I could figure out myself.) 2012-08-05 16:00 bbl 2012-08-05 16:00 bartbes has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2012-08-05 16:01 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 16:05 AwAyla is now known as Ayla 2012-08-05 16:09 wpwrak: sure. i get your point. but to be fair.. isnt it much more fun working on sth which works for sure in the end? 2012-08-05 16:10 wpwrak: have you seen the stuff from busware? 2012-08-05 16:11 http://busware.de/ .. he does small mcu stuff and some freescale designs for where a 32bit cpu is needed 2012-08-05 16:12 nothing "works for sure" ;-) 2012-08-05 16:12 infobot has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2012-08-05 16:12 "busware.de ist bei Facebook" eek ! 2012-08-05 16:13 everybody is bei facebook 2012-08-05 16:14 * wpwrak isn't 2012-08-05 16:17 your so not going with the time ;) 2012-08-05 16:17 * roh would rather like to do multiple smaller scale projects with higher chance of success than doing another big 'failed' one 2012-08-05 16:18 larsc: nah. that verdict is still out. 2012-08-05 16:18 i'm already in the post-facebook future ;-) 2012-08-05 16:18 wpwrak: hrhr 2012-08-05 16:18 i think we can sit that one out. live icq or win9x 2012-08-05 16:18 s/live/like/g 2012-08-05 16:18 roh meant: "i think we can sit that one out. like icq or win9x" 2012-08-05 16:18 roh: agreed on trying smaller projects. that's what i do at the moment :) 2012-08-05 16:19 but at the same time, if there's an opportunity to make a ben successor, i think we should take it 2012-08-05 16:19 wpwrak: what are you hacking on atm? and sure. but maybe not with something that pushes so many people away 2012-08-05 16:20 i would for example like to see some joining forces with other foss hardware initiatives... maybe we can build alliances rather than compete on 'less foss' soc products 2012-08-05 16:20 i don't think too many people would object to a ti-based nanonote if it works well and if we communicate the limitations properly 2012-08-05 16:21 roh: at the moment i'm trying to bring my led toy into the modern age :) 2012-08-05 16:22 alliances would be good. but the issue on our side is that we're on a catastrophically unsustainable path. there's little point in forging alliances if you may not make it to the end of the month. 2012-08-05 16:23 like the pi or these guys http://rhombus-tech.net/ 2012-08-05 16:23 wpwrak: true. is it that grim already? 2012-08-05 16:24 pretty much, yes 2012-08-05 16:25 i thought that qi was one of the posterchilds when it came to 'process foss-i-fication' ... means documentation on all areas.. most others focus only on the sw or what comes after sth. is done and working hw is on the table. 2012-08-05 16:26 roh: the point is you can't get it all at once 2012-08-05 16:26 it's a process 2012-08-05 16:26 getting there means taking one step at a time 2012-08-05 16:27 exactly ! 2012-08-05 16:27 while the SoC may not be open this might be a chance to gain more experience in other areas 2012-08-05 16:27 like creating the schematics 2012-08-05 16:28 and getting the product into fabrication 2012-08-05 16:28 the soc is reasonably open. i mean, it's considerably better than, say, the ingenic we have today. 2012-08-05 16:28 wpwrak: I mean 'open' as in you don't have access to the hdl 2012-08-05 16:29 s/open/not open/ 2012-08-05 16:29 larsc meant: "wpwrak: I mean 'not open' as in you don't have access to the hdl" 2012-08-05 16:29 larsc: sure. but shouldnt it be much easier to use a chip where you get support then? 2012-08-05 16:29 roh: didn't you just say the ti chips are all about getting support ? ;-))) 2012-08-05 16:29 and where you know in advance that there are no 'extra difficulties' with a design 2012-08-05 16:30 there are always "extra difficulties" :) 2012-08-05 16:30 wpwrak: sure. then avoid as many as possible and dont steer into them full frontal 2012-08-05 16:30 heh :) 2012-08-05 16:30 roh: given the alternative such a chip would be preferable. but there is no alternative 2012-08-05 16:30 cause nobody is going to pay for it 2012-08-05 16:30 sure, freescale is expensive, but then there are tqfp chips there, which you can even solder by hand.. its all a pro and con 2012-08-05 16:32 i am not saying that ti builds bad chips. i say they build complex beasts which have a high ratio of needed investment and time and volume to sales price which is resulting in higher financial risks than simpler designs, where also a lower volume on sales can make it work 2012-08-05 16:33 as in: lets NOT build mobile devices for a change 2012-08-05 16:34 you can't turn back time :) 2012-08-05 16:34 everything from notebooks, over netbooks, pda and smartphones and inbetween is like the 'kings class' of devices. high computing power, small volume.. very high integration.. and also a very competive market. not the best field to innovate in with modified goals 2012-08-05 16:35 wpwrak: its not about time. there are different devices all around you. loads of them. 2012-08-05 16:35 the nanonote is just in a niche. a niche where i think it has potential. 2012-08-05 16:36 wpwrak: try getting away from the few sample points we have right now. 2012-08-05 16:36 especially the ones which havent worked that well economically 2012-08-05 16:36 i mean, even the ben with all its weaknesses sold some 1300 units. just imagine how much more attractive a device without all those issues would be. 2012-08-05 16:37 plus, we could make a new design such that it can reach into other fields. e.g., the ben isn't very good at acting as a "terminal" (control interface to other equipment) but that could be fixed with relatively little effort. 2012-08-05 16:38 and i'm not saying the nanonote is the only thing worth doing. far from it. 2012-08-05 16:38 i think we just need to open our minds a bit to other fields of devices and think for a while and then we will find more feasible fields to apply foss hw in small ways 2012-08-05 16:39 wpwrak: i am also not saying we should abandon ben or nanonote at all. just maybe delay it for the right time and chipset (and the money to invest) 2012-08-05 16:39 i've heard the military is a pretty good field. alas, you run into cultural difficulties with globally distributed projects ... 2012-08-05 16:39 another, even better, would be health. wouldn't know how to get a foot in there, though. 2012-08-05 16:39 infobot has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 16:40 i know somebody in the health field doing foss work 2012-08-05 16:40 but much more low-level.. no mcus' but mechanical hacks 2012-08-05 16:40 for developing countries... low-tech.. hi-tech isnt serviceable there 2012-08-05 16:41 got asked if i can help building a machine which helps dispensing a fluid onto tests-paper and then cut that into stripes 2012-08-05 16:41 seems that integration is a big issue in health. they have the equipment but connecting it to a computer costs an arm and a leg. 2012-08-05 16:41 a machine from locally available/scrap parts which can be serviced whereever 2012-08-05 16:42 wpwrak: e.g. they got a ultrasound machine from siemens and it broke down and nobody could fix ir 2012-08-05 16:42 makerbot to the rescue ! :) 2012-08-05 16:42 or they got a machine and it had a color-crt and then there was world cup and it got disassembled and nobody could reassmeble it 2012-08-05 16:43 of course, it's difficult to make money with those clients/customers who are extremely poor and who need individualized service 2012-08-05 16:43 or, machines get broken due to flakey power supply from the grid. not everything works well in dusty environments or high air humidity 2012-08-05 16:45 of course, fixing that may quickly mean a complete redesign 2012-08-05 16:45 exactly. sometimes also a completely differnt attempt at the problem 2012-08-05 16:47 there's one opportunity, though: a lot of medical equipment is priced with us lawsuit risk in mind. if you make it for countries where a hot cup of coffee doens't get you sued for the equivalent of the gross domestic product of a small industry nation, you should be able to sell things at a considerably better price point. 2012-08-05 16:49 i think the selling works differently in that field 2012-08-05 16:49 that one guy i know gets paid from aid organisations. 2012-08-05 16:49 so its more a 'developing stuff' than selling stuff what gets paid, and not from customers 2012-08-05 16:50 alright, that may be a more viable approach for one-off tasks 2012-08-05 16:51 to make money from the customer (e.g., hospitals), you'd have to solve a problem that appears at many places 2012-08-05 16:54 i think that 'selling the product' will be not the major focus.. rather 'providing a solution' 2012-08-05 16:55 the ideal open source product can be easily made everywhere by lots of people. so one needs to find a way living from designing it, not making it. 2012-08-05 16:55 Jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 17:00 yup. it's basically consulting 2012-08-05 17:26 scientes has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 17:35 jekhor_ has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2012-08-05 17:36 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 17:44 GNUtoo has quit [Quit: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.] 2012-08-05 17:46 rz2k has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2012-08-05 17:49 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 18:04 rz2k has quit [*.net *.split] 2012-08-05 18:07 jekhor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-05 18:10 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 18:15 GeorgeH has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-05 18:15 GeorgeH has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 18:20 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 18:30 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2012-08-05 18:44 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 18:59 kilae has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2012-08-05 19:09 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 19:14 kilae has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 19:15 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 19:19 infobot has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2012-08-05 19:53 pabs3 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 21:28 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]] 2012-08-05 21:36 kuribas has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 2012-08-05 21:59 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 22:10 DocScrutinizer51 has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 2012-08-05 22:10 DocAvalanche has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 22:10 DocAvalanche is now known as DocScrutinizer51 2012-08-05 22:10 larsc has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2012-08-05 22:11 larsc has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 22:39 Jurting has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2012-08-05 22:41 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2012-08-05 22:43 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 22:43 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 22:44 :-|, UPS start failing in the worst season of the year... 2012-08-05 22:49 guanucoluis has joined #qi-hardware 2012-08-05 23:11 kristianpaul: good morning. how so, what happened? 2012-08-05 23:14 Ayla has quit [Quit: dodo] 2012-08-05 23:16 server got corrupted its CF.. 2012-08-05 23:18 well, and dunno how my ecrypfs home resisted several hard reboots today.. 2012-08-05 23:46 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2012-08-05 23:46 wolfspraul: what TI SoC do you have in mind? what do you think about the ASIC + FPGA combo? 2012-08-05 23:46 oops 2012-08-05 23:46 wpwrak i meant* 2012-08-05 23:47 the TI inquiry was about AM335x (x = 2, 4, ...) 2012-08-05 23:48 that looks like a reasonable chip. besides the evil GPU, it seems to have nice properties. (judging by the documentation. of course, there could be surprises.) 2012-08-05 23:48 yeap but you agree on that? 2012-08-05 23:49 is would fit the nanonote class of devices. it's a chip to get work done, not one for record benchnarks. 2012-08-05 23:50 asic+fpga would make a lot of sense if we need peripherals ti don't provide. as far as i can tell, the chip has everything we should need. 2012-08-05 23:50 about Off the shell hardware, tplink routers like mr11u seems another interesting alternative for a no care work with linux solution 2012-08-05 23:50 perhaps GPU/VGA can move to a small fgpa :) 2012-08-05 23:51 asic+fpga or asic+cpld could also make sense for flexibility. e.g., an 8:10 card slot on steroids. would depend on the cost calculation if we could make an FPGA fit in the equation. 2012-08-05 23:51 in general, it would be nice to incorporate an fpga to keep that knowledge alive in the community 2012-08-05 23:52 yes 2012-08-05 23:52 (gpu in fpga) naw, then the fpga needs to talk to the memory bus. that's too messy. 2012-08-05 23:52 :-) 2012-08-05 23:52 what you think fpga can do then? 2012-08-05 23:53 or taking bits from milkymist... what reamains if you already have a soc.. 2012-08-05 23:53 it could be a general-purpose controller that sits on the 8:10 card interface. so if you want to do something fancy there, such as vga out or whatever, it could take care of that 2012-08-05 23:54 rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2012-08-05 23:54 but as such a "controller for hacking", it would have to be cheap. a few dollars, not more. 2012-08-05 23:55 hypermodern_ has joined #qi-hardware