2012-07-17 00:01 Ayla has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2012-07-17 00:03 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 00:08 Ayla has quit [Quit: dodo]
2012-07-17 00:10 ParahSailin_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
2012-07-17 00:21 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 00:49 rejon has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 00:53 rejon has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
2012-07-17 01:14 cladamw has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
2012-07-17 01:16 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 01:18 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 01:21 cladamw has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2012-07-17 01:21 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 02:01 nikescar has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
2012-07-17 02:03 nikescar has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 02:33 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2012-07-17 02:40 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 02:59 xiangfu has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2012-07-17 03:42 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving]
2012-07-17 03:42 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 03:57 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 04:06 cladamw has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
2012-07-17 04:16 kristoffer has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 05:45 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 06:14 rzk has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 06:17 rz2k has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 06:20 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 06:21 rzk has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 06:25 rz2k has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 06:30 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 06:35 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 07:10 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 07:23 scientes has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
2012-07-17 08:27 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
2012-07-17 08:57 jluis|work has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2012-07-17 09:02 jluis|work has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 09:14 DocScrutinizer06 is now known as DocScrutinizer05
2012-07-17 09:51 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 10:11 Openfree` has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2012-07-17 10:12 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 10:34 Openfree` has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 10:39 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2012-07-17 10:52 cladamw has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
2012-07-17 10:53 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 11:03 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2012-07-17 11:04 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2012-07-17 11:16 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 11:18 kilae has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 11:27 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2012-07-17 11:35 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 11:40 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 11:53 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 11:56 Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2012-07-17 12:10 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 12:30 Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
2012-07-17 13:26 antgreen has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 13:52 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services]
2012-07-17 13:52 DocScrutinizer06 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 13:52 DocScrutinizer has quit [Disconnected by services]
2012-07-17 13:52 DocScrutinizer has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 14:42 mth has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2012-07-17 14:42 mth has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 14:49 antgreen has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
2012-07-17 14:52 mth has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
2012-07-17 14:53 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 15:07 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 15:18 qwebirc19053 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 15:39 scientes has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 15:54 <wolfspraul> blist
2012-07-17 15:55 <wolfspraul> oops :-)
2012-07-17 16:03 <wpwrak> ah, so not everyone is on vacation :)
2012-07-17 16:04 <kristianpaul> ;-)
2012-07-17 16:06 jluis has quit [Quit: Me'n vaig]
2012-07-17 16:07 <larsc> what's vacation?
2012-07-17 16:09 <wpwrak> it's a metaphysical phenomenon that explains sometimes long response times of others
2012-07-17 16:10 mth_ has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 16:10 <kristianpaul> a lied holliday :)
2012-07-17 16:11 mth_ is now known as mth
2012-07-17 16:27 freakazoid0223 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 16:30 <qwebirc19053> help
2012-07-17 16:32 qwebirc19053 is now known as tickrate
2012-07-17 16:39 jekhor has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 16:39 kyak has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 16:39 dandon has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 16:39 Ornotermes has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 16:39 valhalla has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 16:39 kyak has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 16:39 kyak has quit [Changing host]
2012-07-17 16:39 kyak has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 16:39 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 16:45 <whitequark> vacation?
2012-07-17 16:45 <whitequark> what
2012-07-17 16:57 dandon has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 16:57 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 16:57 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 16:59 <tickrate> oops. sorry about 'help'. wrong screen.
2012-07-17 17:40 DocScrutinizer06 is now known as DocScrutinizer05
2012-07-17 17:46 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
2012-07-17 17:52 tickrate has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 17:55 qwebirc77472 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 17:55 qwebirc77472 is now known as tickrate
2012-07-17 18:12 GNUtoo-desktop has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 18:22 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 18:36 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 18:38 tickrate has quit []
2012-07-17 18:47 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]]
2012-07-17 18:56 kilae has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 18:59 kilae has quit [Client Quit]
2012-07-17 18:59 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 18:59 jluis has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 19:01 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 19:07 kilae has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 19:12 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 19:58 GNUtoo-desktop has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 19:58 kyak has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 19:58 wolfspraul has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 19:58 Jay7 has quit [*.net *.split]
2012-07-17 19:59 kyak has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 19:59 kyak has quit [Changing host]
2012-07-17 19:59 kyak has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 20:00 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 20:00 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2012-07-17 20:01 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 20:02 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 20:04 GNUtoo-desktop has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 20:10 B_Lizzard has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 20:14 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 20:27 emeb has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 20:37 LunaVorax has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
2012-07-17 20:56 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware
2012-07-17 21:01 kristoffer has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2012-07-17 21:26 <whitequark> the raspberry pi is the new arduino.
2012-07-17 21:26 <whitequark> even more computing power to waste mindlessly
2012-07-17 21:27 <whitequark> I just wish to see how a gaping vulnerability gets discovered which will make every single (factory-flashed) instance of rpi exploitable.
2012-07-17 21:28 <kristianpaul> whitequark: at least run Linus now, more friendly no? :)
2012-07-17 21:28 <viric> :)
2012-07-17 21:28 <kristianpaul> LinuX
2012-07-17 21:28 <whitequark> kristianpaul: that's exactly what is wrong.
2012-07-17 21:28 <whitequark> controlling a lightbulb with an arduino is barely acceptable already
2012-07-17 21:28 <viric> I don't like that pi thing either. I don't see much good in all that big marketing
2012-07-17 21:28 <whitequark> controlling it with a fucking ARM11 with fucking linux is NOT acceptable
2012-07-17 21:29 <rz2k> lol
2012-07-17 21:29 <kristianpaul> a bulb? ;)
2012-07-17 21:29 <kristianpaul> light*
2012-07-17 21:29 <kristianpaul> nah..
2012-07-17 21:29 <rz2k> lets control a bulb with ARM11-Core on Virtex
2012-07-17 21:29 <whitequark> oh, 90% of rpi projects will turn out to be lightbulb controllers
2012-07-17 21:29 <whitequark> just like 90% of arduino projects did
2012-07-17 21:29 <whitequark> but at least arduino forces you to think at least a little.
2012-07-17 21:30 <kristianpaul> thats exagerate a bit, even with arduino (wich is widelly used by artits on not that simple implementations actually)
2012-07-17 21:30 <whitequark> even attaching a lightbulb teaches you something new. that's useful.
2012-07-17 21:30 <kristianpaul> hmm
2012-07-17 21:30 <whitequark> kristianpaul: arduino for _artists_ is perfectly fine
2012-07-17 21:30 <viric> maybe the kernel people come up with a generic lightbuilb user-kernel interface
2012-07-17 21:30 <whitequark> that's what arduino was created for, with all those shields
2012-07-17 21:30 <kristianpaul> yeap
2012-07-17 21:30 <whitequark> and I have nothing against it
2012-07-17 21:31 <whitequark> but arduino is an awful platform to teach electronics/uC programming in every aspect
2012-07-17 21:31 <whitequark> it's expensive (compared to a bare chip plus a $4 USB-serial), it's too common, which means that arduino programmers will arise, and it's pretty basic
2012-07-17 21:32 <whitequark> it's not a platform for teaching, it's a product. let it stay a product.
2012-07-17 21:32 <wpwrak> whitequark: what's wrong with using an ARM and Linux to control your lightbulb ? Linux lets you do a lot of fun things directly on the same chip, without having to first send them out over some serial port to a real machine
2012-07-17 21:33 <rz2k> more arduino guys = less good engineers = more work for us!
2012-07-17 21:33 <wpwrak> (-:C
2012-07-17 21:33 <whitequark> wpwrak: because controlling a lightbulb--I meant that literally--does not require linux, and linux, being a very complicated piece of software, adds like 1k% points of failure.
2012-07-17 21:34 <viric> and *updates*
2012-07-17 21:34 <whitequark> e.g. what will happen if that fancy ARM11 will get an EMI or a 0.5V spike? a dead ARM11?
2012-07-17 21:34 <viric> "do you run the latest linux in your pi?"
2012-07-17 21:35 <whitequark> and AVRs at least can perfectly run at 2x rated voltage. they're just way less complex
2012-07-17 21:35 <whitequark> you shouldn't kill a pigeon with a cannon.
2012-07-17 21:35 <whitequark> you'll end up destroying everything around and an alive pigeon.
2012-07-17 21:35 <viric> whitequark: I bet some people will fight to reduce the linux boot time in the pi :)
2012-07-17 21:36 <whitequark> viric: just smile and then place a glowing tritium keyring on that thing.
2012-07-17 21:36 <wpwrak> whitequark: hmm. would you use an arduino in applications that need industry-grade reliability ? ;-)
2012-07-17 21:37 <whitequark> wpwrak: depends. I could accept prototyping on arduino and then using an industry-grade version of same AVR chip in production
2012-07-17 21:37 <whitequark> but frankly, it's just so easier to get a breadboard
2012-07-17 21:37 <whitequark> and it's hundred times cheaper.
2012-07-17 21:38 <whitequark> of course, using their pseudo-C or third-party code is not acceptable.
2012-07-17 21:38 <kristianpaul> i see it like an easy way to embed apps on a box
2012-07-17 21:38 <kristianpaul> a more common sreap of single platform (linux)
2012-07-17 21:38 <kristianpaul> spread*
2012-07-17 21:38 <whitequark> linux is already the most abundant OS on earth
2012-07-17 21:38 <wpwrak> whitequark: regarding the cannon, i use the ben nanonote with UBB as my little "arduino". for small interface tasks, such as in-circuit programming. works great. and having linux on the machine makes things a LOT easier.
2012-07-17 21:38 <kristianpaul> we need more !! ;-)
2012-07-17 21:39 <kristianpaul> if the code that control the lightbulb is a bash script i dont have nothing again is :)
2012-07-17 21:39 <kristianpaul> or make
2012-07-17 21:39 <kristianpaul> make lightbulb on  =)
2012-07-17 21:39 <whitequark> wpwrak: well, in these cases using a product (i.e. arduino or ben) saves you some construction and testing. perfectly fine for one-off tasks.
2012-07-17 21:39 <kristianpaul> against*
2012-07-17 21:40 <whitequark> but if you will, for example, suggest building a home automation systems built on Ben's (not the Ben's board, or CPU, or whatever--plain Bens), I'd say you are crazy
2012-07-17 21:40 <whitequark> s,systems,system,
2012-07-17 21:40 <whitequark> and that's what arduino and rpi folks do.
2012-07-17 21:41 <wpwrak> (protoyping) i rarely find it convenient to use something fairly alien. most of the time, the MCU itself isn't the part of the system that has most of the question marks, so i find it a lot more useful to make prototypes what are already close to the final system. that way, i can test a lot more things.
2012-07-17 21:41 <whitequark> wpwrak: (prototyping) yeah, looks like we agree on this. I don't possibly see how using shields makes prototyping easier.
2012-07-17 21:42 <whitequark> it's just like Lego. yeah, it's a really good toy, but it's a toy. you cannot take a whole lot of Lego bricks and build a real house.
2012-07-17 21:43 <whitequark> leave toys to their domain, and bricks and concrete to theirs.
2012-07-17 21:43 <wpwrak> (home automation) i'd consider the ben for a control / user interface device :) for the modules actually switching power and such, you need something optimized anyway. no point in making craters in your walls to fit an arduino sandwich
2012-07-17 21:44 <wpwrak> (lego house) say this a few more times and perhaps someone will take that challenge ;-)
2012-07-17 21:44 <whitequark> as a _challenge_, it's fine, again.
2012-07-17 21:44 <whitequark> but if you'll try to start a company building a lego brick houses...
2012-07-17 21:44 <wpwrak> lego may actually work reasonably well. there's a lot of nice embedded isolating air in there. and it's certainly water-proof. maybe you need some UV paint :)
2012-07-17 21:45 <wpwrak> maybe that could bring the price of lego bricks down quite a bit ;-))
2012-07-17 21:45 <whitequark> well, unless you consider how much force they can stand, and the fact that trying to stand on the floor will probably destroy it
2012-07-17 21:45 <whitequark> (and you in the process)
2012-07-17 21:46 <pang> James May built a house out of Legos
2012-07-17 21:47 <wpwrak> ther are some more advanced lego components that let you build reasonably strong structures
2012-07-17 21:47 <pang> http://www.topgear.com/uk/assets/cms/004762df-d40e-4fdf-a894-41dcf49d3482/670x377Image.jpg?p=101206_10:51
2012-07-17 21:48 * whitequark shrugs
2012-07-17 21:48 <whitequark> I never doubt someone will be crazy enough to do that
2012-07-17 21:48 <whitequark> not even mentioning that rpi has a Broadcom chip in it.
2012-07-17 21:49 <whitequark> fucking broadcom where you don't even have FOSS kernel modules for all of the peripherals.
2012-07-17 21:49 <whitequark> AFAIK at least GPU and networking modules are proprietary.
2012-07-17 21:50 <whitequark> oh, and that vicious idea of clustering simple machines.
2012-07-17 21:51 <whitequark> having 8 arduinos mean that instead having 8x computing power, you'll have 6x communication overhead.
2012-07-17 21:51 <whitequark> and similar ones with "a bucket of rpis."
2012-07-17 21:52 <whitequark> oh, also: home automation devices should be _really_ cheap. pi is intended to be mass-produced, and yet it is $35. that's nothing like "cheap".
2012-07-17 21:52 B_Lizzard has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2012-07-17 21:52 <whitequark> I want to add a hundred of devices to every place I have something controllable or measurable. $3k5? no way.
2012-07-17 21:53 <pang> last i checked the $35 version had several USB ports and ethernet
2012-07-17 21:53 <pang> if you just want to control or measure something it'd probably be better to use the $25 version
2012-07-17 21:53 <whitequark> that's fundamentally the same.
2012-07-17 21:54 <pang> or an Atmega32U4 with an RF12B
2012-07-17 21:54 <whitequark> why use a complex, faulty $25 appliance where a $5 one would serve its job better?
2012-07-17 21:54 <whitequark> pang: I'm for STM32W's, but that series is very young yet
2012-07-17 21:54 <wpwrak> more like $1-2 ;-) after all, the critter gives you little more than the CPU. all the rest is custom-made anyway.
2012-07-17 21:55 <whitequark> wpwrak: I meant the whole device, not only the MCU
2012-07-17 21:56 <whitequark> pang: STM32s are actually more efficient than Atmel processors, both in regards of power and programmer efficiency.
2012-07-17 21:56 <whitequark> working with USB in a 8-bit MCU is painful
2012-07-17 21:56 <whitequark> STM's have DMA and 32-bit stuff and nice ARM ISA, and they're actually cheaper, faster and use less watts/MIPS.
2012-07-17 21:57 <wpwrak> the NXP LPC1xxx don't look half bad when it comes to competing with AVRs. about the same price point. a LOT more MHz. Cortex.
2012-07-17 21:57 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]]
2012-07-17 21:57 <whitequark> wpwrak: NXP, esp. the LPC series has a longstanding trait of having _incredibly_ big and annoying errata
2012-07-17 21:57 <whitequark> i.e. "Boot from SD is not working from rev. A to rev. E. There is no workaround."
2012-07-17 21:57 <pang> the Atmels are designed in my home town so i've gotta support them :P
2012-07-17 21:58 <pang> the alternative would be the Nordic chips
2012-07-17 21:58 <whitequark> hmmm, what can you say about Nordic? I'm curious
2012-07-17 21:58 <whitequark> I like nRF24L01+ a lot
2012-07-17 21:59 <pang> they're known for their rf chips
2012-07-17 21:59 <whitequark> I have a friend who worked with these chips, and he says they're ages ahead TI's hardware/software solution
2012-07-17 21:59 <whitequark> haven't actually used them in real projects yet, but I studied the docs and available products on the market
2012-07-17 21:59 <whitequark> they have a proprietary air protocol, but apart from that it's a really really nice little chip
2012-07-17 22:00 <whitequark> no external components (apass from bypass cap & two more to pass FCC)
2012-07-17 22:00 <whitequark> and it has a nice packet engine inside
2012-07-17 22:00 <whitequark> s,apass,apart
2012-07-17 22:01 <pang> the third alternative would have to be Energy Micro
2012-07-17 22:02 <pang> that company is not from my home town, but i know a lot of the guys there
2012-07-17 22:03 <wpwrak> "they have a proprietary air protocol, but apart from that it's a really really nice little chip" is like saying "he slowly tortured everyone in the village to death, then poisoned the well. but besides, he's a great guy." ;-)
2012-07-17 22:04 <pang> i'm pretty sure the Energy Micro Cortex will match your STs when it comes to power efficiency
2012-07-17 22:04 <wpwrak> s/besides/besides that
2012-07-17 22:04 <qi-bot> wpwrak meant: ""they have a proprietary air protocol, but apart from that it's a really really nice little chip" is like saying "he slowly tortured everyone in the village to death, then poisoned the well. but besides that, he's a great guy." ;-)"
2012-07-17 22:05 <whitequark> wpwrak: *shrug* they work, and they're cheap. I'm fine with that for one-off projects.
2012-07-17 22:05 <whitequark> for something more sustainable, 802.15.4 is the way to go.
2012-07-17 22:05 <whitequark> pang: yeah, I see, EM MCUs look very similar to ST ones
2012-07-17 22:06 <whitequark> have you used them?
2012-07-17 22:06 <pang> no, i have no hands on experience
2012-07-17 22:07 <whitequark> ohh, they have radios too
2012-07-17 22:07 <pang> but i know some of the guys designing them, and they're pretty hard core
2012-07-17 22:07 <whitequark> or they will have them in Q3 2013
2012-07-17 22:07 <pang> so i'm pretty sure the stuff must be good :P
2012-07-17 22:07 <whitequark> well, when they'll begin selling them, I'm in
2012-07-17 22:07 <whitequark> because this stuff really seems to be comprehensive and competitive
2012-07-17 22:07 <whitequark> wpwrak: http://www.energymicro.com/draco/4
2012-07-17 22:08 <wpwrak> Q3 2013. let's talk about them in 2015 ;-)
2012-07-17 22:08 <whitequark> exactly
2012-07-17 22:08 <whitequark> and that's sad
2012-07-17 22:13 <wpwrak> the specs don't look too exciting compared things you can buy from NXP today
2012-07-17 22:18 <whitequark> like what?
2012-07-17 22:22 <wpwrak> the LPC1xxx series. seem pretty similar.
2012-07-17 22:28 <wpwrak> power consumption is a bit lower. deepest sleep mode is some 11x better (20 nA vs. 220 nA). in the other modes, they're comparable. and NXP update their LPC series quite often when they've figured out some new power-saving trick.
2012-07-17 22:42 <whitequark> mhm
2012-07-17 22:42 <whitequark> what about wireless stuff from nxp?
2012-07-17 22:54 <wpwrak> dunno. atmel is a bit of a kludge but at least it's properly documented and easy to use. it's a separate chip anyway.
2012-07-17 23:03 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2012-07-17 23:08 GNUtoo-desktop has quit [Quit: [INFO]  fsogsmd : received signal -11, exiting.]
2012-07-17 23:17 Openfree` has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]