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2012-05-28 01:14 <wpwrak> cladamw: heya ! i have a new idea for things like QFP
2012-05-28 01:15 <cladamw> wpwrak, good morning ! yes.
2012-05-28 01:15 <wpwrak> cladamw: i found IPC 7351. they have actually very nice formulas for going from the package definition to footprints
2012-05-28 01:15 <wpwrak> so instead of defining the footprint parameters directly, we could probably just calculate them from the package parameters
2012-05-28 01:16 <wpwrak> that should avoid all the ugly guesswork
2012-05-28 01:17 <wpwrak> also, IPC 7351 defines variations of parameters. so for each package, you could get at least three differently sized footprints. of course, fped could also make these three variants.
2012-05-28 01:17 <wpwrak> these variations may explain why we get so different patterns from different companies, even though all claim to use exactly the same standards
2012-05-28 01:19 <wpwrak> doing things this way will benefit from fped having a few new features which i'm adding these days. i think i have solved the nastier bits already, but there's still 1-2 more days of work to do.
2012-05-28 01:20 <wpwrak> so i'm not sure if it makes sense for you to work on qfp.fpd at the moment, since it should become obsolete very soon
2012-05-28 01:20 <wpwrak> (well, not entirely obsolete. but its internal logic would change a lot)
2012-05-28 01:20 <cladamw> (obsolete) hmm ... good and also bad. :)
2012-05-28 01:22 <cladamw> so Fped will meet IPC 7351 and try to have features with three variations option ?
2012-05-28 01:22 <cladamw> will new Fped impact all your existing *.fpd ?
2012-05-28 01:22 <wpwrak> (IPC) yes, that's the idea
2012-05-28 01:23 <wpwrak> all the old things will still work
2012-05-28 01:24 <wpwrak> it's just that a few new features will make it a lot easier to construct the things according to IPC7351. for example, i've added a rounding function. and i'm extending the functionality of tables.
2012-05-28 01:24 <wpwrak> have you read the whole README yet ?
2012-05-28 01:24 <cladamw> i see, but i think that i still can work on SOIC and else, just later to change a little.
2012-05-28 01:24 <cladamw> you committed new info on README ?
2012-05-28 01:24 <cladamw> checking ...
2012-05-28 01:25 <wpwrak> SOIC may be quite similar to QFP. SSOP certainly will be. so that would come after.
2012-05-28 01:25 <wpwrak> yes, there's a bit of new stuff in README
2012-05-28 01:25 <wpwrak> lemme push all the changes (the last bit is still incomplete)
2012-05-28 01:25 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: test/floor: add two real-life-like rounding problems (mil to mm) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/9115444
2012-05-28 01:25 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: add %iprint, to track variables during instantiation (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/3c39600
2012-05-28 01:25 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: introduce keyed tables (?var syntax; WIP) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/3488cf8
2012-05-28 01:25 <cladamw> wpwrak, btw, i don't like the marker inside outline frame.
2012-05-28 01:25 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: test/tsort: fix permission (wasn't excecutable) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/101bd11
2012-05-28 01:26 <cladamw> wpwrak, sure.
2012-05-28 01:26 <wpwrak> (marker) it's a tricky thing. i put it there so that it doesn't get in the way. e.g., if you want to put some pad / TP near the component, then the marker on the silk would get in the way
2012-05-28 01:26 <cladamw> a marker like for dip, qfn or qfp is good
2012-05-28 01:27 <wpwrak> (marker) but of course, there's the problem that it is hidden when you place the component
2012-05-28 01:28 <cladamw> yes, it's a tricky, but i just like to tell you that smt machine use a outer marker better than inside the area of footprint it picks and places it. :-)
2012-05-28 01:28 <wpwrak> (smt machine) ah, that's interesting. didn't know that
2012-05-28 01:29 <wpwrak> maybe we should make it really small then :)
2012-05-28 01:29 <cladamw> since a inner marker is useless and smt technician will use fiducial and offset for placing (i.e. smt needs to calibrate offset.) no good.
2012-05-28 01:30 <cladamw> wpwrak, no problem ,when i build new *.fpd, I'll always make marker to be outside. :)
2012-05-28 01:30 <cladamw> and smaller.
2012-05-28 01:31 <wpwrak> regarding naming, components would have names like QFP32-MS026BBA-B. QFP for the general shape, 32 for the number of pins, MS26BBA for the JEDEC standard that defines the package parameters, and B for the density
2012-05-28 01:31 <cladamw> aha ... sounds good naming
2012-05-28 01:31 <wpwrak> density is how the package parameters get translated to the footprint. A makes a large footprint, B a medium one, C a tiny one
2012-05-28 01:33 <cladamw> this three features makes me remembered that om ivorin used C tiny one for phone footprints. :-)
2012-05-28 01:34 <wpwrak> yeah, the OM phones were very tightly packed :)
2012-05-28 01:35 <wpwrak> now, the new features in fped:
2012-05-28 01:35 <cladamw> it was reasonable, but for a  referenced-likely plateform hw, an alternative option to choose function in Fped is good direction.
2012-05-28 01:36 <wpwrak> - first, when you change the current row in a table and if that table influences what package is being defined (like in qfn.fpd or qfp.fpd), then fped will try to automatically select that package for you
2012-05-28 01:36 <wpwrak> so you no longer need to go up to the list of packages and synchronize with the table all the time
2012-05-28 01:37 <wpwrak> (density) fped would simply generate all the variants. then it's up to designer of the pcb to choose which footprint size they like.
2012-05-28 01:38 <wpwrak> - next feature: i added a function called floor(). it rounds its argument to the next lowest integer. e.g., floor(2.1) would be 2
2012-05-28 01:39 <wpwrak> you can also use it to do things like rounding to 0.1 mm as follows: given a dimension X, you would the the rounded value with floor(X/0.1mm)*0.1mm
2012-05-28 01:39 <wpwrak> the nice thing is that it doesn't matter whether X is in mm or mil
2012-05-28 01:39 <cladamw> okay.
2012-05-28 01:39 <wpwrak> s/the the/get the/
2012-05-28 01:40 <cladamw> do i need to update Fped now to use ? or one ~ too days later ?
2012-05-28 01:40 <wpwrak> - and the next feature (unfinished): you can tell fped that a column in the table doesn't define a variable but synchronizes with a variable defined elsewhere instead
2012-05-28 01:41 <wpwrak> this currently only works in a script, not in the GUI (the GUI should do the right thing, but you can't edit this)
2012-05-28 01:42 <cladamw> alright, so i think that i update new Fped once you let me know it's done. :-)
2012-05-28 01:42 <wpwrak> this mechanism would allow you to do two things: 1) split a large table into multiple tables, and 2) if you have parameters that apply to multiple entires in the table, you can assign a unique key and use that
2012-05-28 01:43 <cladamw> (unfinished feature) that one yes i feel it's nice. I like it. :-)
2012-05-28 01:44 <wpwrak> it's basically what is called an "inner join" in relational databases
2012-05-28 01:44 <cladamw> btw, do you know that how many people used your Fped so far ?
2012-05-28 01:45 <cladamw> (inner join) i can imagine its work. :)
2012-05-28 01:45 <wpwrak> it'll be useful for the IPC calculations, because there are sets of parameters that change a bit with chip dimensions, but each set applies to many dimensions. so instead of repeating the set of parameters a dozen times, you'd just have one entry in a separate table and put the index in the table with all the chips
2012-05-28 01:46 <wpwrak> there are examples of the floor() function in the regression tests, here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/fped/source/tree/master/test/floor
2012-05-28 01:46 <wpwrak> and for the tables, a few examples here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/fped/source/tree/master/test/keys
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2012-05-28 01:49 <wpwrak> the syntax ?variable_name in a table means that this column is a key. so in the first example, the first table sets "a" to the values 1 or 2 and in the second table, only the corresponding entries are selected. the end result is a translation from english to german :)
2012-05-28 01:51 <cladamw> (inner join) nice "Mapping" method. :)
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2012-05-28 01:53 <wpwrak> yeah :) i've been thinking of this for a very long time. and now i finally figured out how to do it :)
2012-05-28 01:54 <wpwrak> the implementation is not extremely efficient (fped first produces all the combinations and then rejects the ones that don't match), but modern PC are fast :)
2012-05-28 02:00 <cladamw> i thought Fped in the end can generate mostly footprints that industry use then it's enough, in the other hand Fped becomes not only for footprint generations&review purpose, could be also for next your generation tool of 2D or 2.5D ancestor.
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2012-05-28 02:04 <wpwrak> yes, for simple 2D it's quite nice. for 2.5D, i'm not convinceed. i have a 2.5D design made with fped, but it's a bit confusing
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2012-05-28 02:05 <wpwrak> (simple 2D) as long as you don't need things like tangents, measure angles, and so on. e.g., making M1 front and rear plates was fun and easy. roh probably suffered a lot more with qcad ;)
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2012-05-28 05:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: added SOIC footprints: 8, 14 and 16 pins. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/f077efe
2012-05-28 05:58 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: gui_frame.c: display a question mark before variables used as key (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/326a480
2012-05-28 05:58 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: support switching variables between assignment and key (WIP) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/4c3dea7
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2012-05-28 07:43 <LunaVorax> Hi everyone
2012-05-28 07:46 <xiangfu> LunaVorax, Hi
2012-05-28 07:48 <viric> hello
2012-05-28 07:49 <viric> hm question about the linux scheduler... what can give a loadavg of 90, and 'top' showing 99% idle?
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2012-05-28 07:54 <LunaVorax> Hi xiangfu
2012-05-28 07:55 <lindi-> viric: processes in disk sleep
2012-05-28 07:56 <viric> they are counted in loadavg? I suspected so.
2012-05-28 07:56 <lindi-> viric: yes, it is the average number of processes that are not in S state
2012-05-28 07:57 <viric> ah, *not in S*
2012-05-28 07:57 <viric> I thought it would be in R state
2012-05-28 08:14 <viric> lindi-: and if that happens with disk not doing activity? (by HD led)
2012-05-28 08:14 <lindi-> viric: it can be a bug?
2012-05-28 08:15 <viric> I thought so... I dumped the task states, and some were blocked at reiserfs code calling some timeouts or so
2012-05-28 08:15 <viric> concurrency bugs in disk code can appear that way in loadavg I imagine
2012-05-28 08:15 <lindi-> viric: yeah if this is reproducible you might want to test with some other fs
2012-05-28 08:16 <viric> not reproducible anymore. moo. :)
2012-05-28 08:16 <viric> thank you a lot
2012-05-28 08:16 <viric> very enlightening.
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2012-05-28 08:34 <viric> lindi-: qemu uses 21 threads to do disk IO, for a single VM.
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2012-05-28 09:02 <jivs> Hello xiangfu,
2012-05-28 09:04 <xiangfu> jivs, Hi
2012-05-28 09:04 <jivs> Have u had chance to try the updated guile2 on your system?
2012-05-28 09:05 <jivs> it should compile fine now. please let me know if there is any issue.
2012-05-28 09:06 <xiangfu> jivs, great.
2012-05-28 09:07 <xiangfu> jivs, the build host will report that in next ~30 hours.  and I am compiling that now.
2012-05-28 09:07 <jivs> okay great...
2012-05-28 09:12 <jivs> thanks xiangfu for the quick merge
2012-05-28 09:14 <viric> do you use guile2 in the nanonote?
2012-05-28 09:29 <xiangfu> under nanonote guile is 1.8.7.
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2012-05-28 09:30 <xiangfu> guile2 will included in next release. :)
2012-05-28 09:30 <viric> ah ok
2012-05-28 09:30 <xiangfu> viric, I only show people that there is guile in Nanonote. I don't know much about guile.
2012-05-28 09:30 <viric> my question was more for jivs, I imagined he cares on guile there.
2012-05-28 09:31 <viric> some time ago, I helped one guile2 maintainer ensure it works in the nanonote. :)
2012-05-28 09:31 <viric> not for openwrt, but for nix, of course
2012-05-28 09:31 <jivs> hi viric
2012-05-28 09:32 <jivs> guile2 runs in nanonote now
2012-05-28 09:32 <viric> in openwrt in the nanonote you mean
2012-05-28 09:34 <jivs> it will be included in the next release as xiangfu
2012-05-28 09:34 <jivs> yes openwrt
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2012-05-28 10:14 <xiangfu> I got a configure error: configure: error: building Guile 2.0.5 but `/usr/bin/guile' has version 1.8.8"
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2012-05-28 10:53 <jivs_> xiangfu: let me rerun that on my system without guile on the host
2012-05-28 10:54 <jivs_> it may have bypassed on mine because of that
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2012-05-28 11:04 <cladamw> wpwrak, how to use arc in Fped ? center, start and end point, but how to drag ? I found it always a circle. so must be the steps I made wrong.
2012-05-28 11:04 <LunaVorax> Oh seriously guys
2012-05-28 11:04 <LunaVorax> Piwik stats on http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Piwik_stats requires flash?
2012-05-28 11:04 <LunaVorax> :(
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2012-05-28 13:10 <wpwrak> cladamw: yo ufirst make a circle. then you drag the radius point
2012-05-28 13:11 <cladamw> wpwrak, hehe ... i just knew how to use it already but thanks. :-)
2012-05-28 13:13 <wpwrak> i guessed at much :)
2012-05-28 13:18 <qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: ir.fpd: added IR receiver footprint (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/e92838c
2012-05-28 13:19 <cladamw> wpwrak, I've not named a good name for this IR, still gaved a TSOP348 same from Vishay's series. we can rename it later. :-)
2012-05-28 13:22 <cladamw> tomorrow's work to edit JS28F256J3F105 footprint TSOP-56 and TO-252, etc. :)
2012-05-28 13:23 <cladamw> wpwrak, i go off line. 886
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2012-05-28 15:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: fix whitespace anomalies (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/f2d3986
2012-05-28 15:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: make variable type changes also commit the value (name) being edited (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/5d76af2
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2012-05-28 15:30 <viric> mth: I think the mplayer "-vo v4l2" expects a hw mpeg decoder at its end
2012-05-28 15:33 <mth> it doesn't check capabilities and settle for just YUV decoding if that's all that is available?
2012-05-28 15:34 <viric> I don't think so. the docs specify mpeg decoder.
2012-05-28 15:34 <viric> what about 'vidix'?
2012-05-28 15:36 <viric> hm isn't vidix what dvdk used?
2012-05-28 15:36 <viric> I can't remember
2012-05-28 15:36 <viric> vidix looks like a very old thing
2012-05-28 15:37 <mth> I haven't looked into dvdk's code yet, I've only heard it described
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2012-05-28 15:42 <viric> mth: I just found http://gumstix.8.n6.nabble.com/DSS2-Patches-V4L2-Video-Drivers-td652897.html
2012-05-28 15:42 <viric> unrelated hw, but seems to do something with v4l2
2012-05-28 15:45 <mth> it mentions overlays, but it's hard to make out more without deeper study
2012-05-28 15:45 <viric> yes.
2012-05-28 15:45 <viric> it's about using a TI omap as display afaiu
2012-05-28 15:46 <viric> as some image processing unit
2012-05-28 15:46 <viric> but with v4l2 interface
2012-05-28 15:46 <viric> I'd like to know what userland tools they have, sending to it
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2012-05-28 17:41 <qi-bot> The build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20120527-1148
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