2012-04-20 00:05 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 00:05 * wpwrak wonders if rjeffries in return sings the praise of qi-hw on the raspberry pi channel 2012-04-20 00:10 does it matter? 2012-04-20 00:11 the raspberry pi has pretty much nothing of interest, but bad art has never necessarily stopped people from lining up for it :-) 2012-04-20 00:11 a broadcom marketing gimmick, oh my :-) 2012-04-20 00:12 did anybody see the success of the pebble watch on kickstarter? 2012-04-20 00:12 that's something new 2012-04-20 00:12 they raised over 5 million USD in preorders for a new product, cool! 2012-04-20 00:12 that will kick some of the lazier VCs into shape to provide real value to their startups 2012-04-20 00:12 zedstar has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 00:12 zedstar has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 00:13 it's not open hardware or anything, but a great success on financing through preorders. their timeline and history suggests that they can actually deliver... cool I think 2012-04-20 00:14 I actually dont get why rpi guys cant make manufacturing faster, with 200k+ preorders... 2012-04-20 00:14 well 2012-04-20 00:14 what is the rpi actually? 2012-04-20 00:14 think about it 2012-04-20 00:15 broadcom sponsored company for world domination :3 2012-04-20 00:15 (watch) yeah, pretty impressive 2012-04-20 00:15 it's broadcom's answer to the 'successful' beagleboard, and on the other side also something to sneak developers from qualcomm/atheros 2012-04-20 00:16 a sad thing, marketing scheming all around 2012-04-20 00:16 I feel sorry for people that waste their time on this, but ok 2012-04-20 00:16 there are lots of hobbies one can have :-) 2012-04-20 00:16 who am I to judge... 2012-04-20 00:16 here's the watch http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/597507018/pebble-e-paper-watch-for-iphone-and-android 2012-04-20 00:16 they could do worse, and become apple fanboys and -girls ;-) 2012-04-20 00:17 rz2k: have you ordered a pi? 2012-04-20 00:17 I had, but then I found beaglebone and dropped ordrer on rpi. 2012-04-20 00:17 beaglebone? 2012-04-20 00:17 what is that? :-) 2012-04-20 00:18 crippled beagleboard 2012-04-20 00:18 i like that they use e-paper. i think that technology is badly under-used. perhaps it'll get more attention once the relevant patents expire. 2012-04-20 00:18 btw, just for the record 2012-04-20 00:18 qi hardware is an open hardware project 2012-04-20 00:18 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 00:18 http://beagleboard.org/bone 2012-04-20 00:18 so we innovate on things like mechanical, sourcing, testing, eda tools, etc. 2012-04-20 00:18 there is actually zero overlap to something either like the beagle* or pi 2012-04-20 00:19 the overlap is with projects like elphel, osmo*, arduino, maybe some others. most make pretty bad compromises on tools though, seems they don't see much value in a free process. so we try here :-) 2012-04-20 00:20 I hope we accelerate with m1 2012-04-20 00:20 transfer to kicad, then source with boom finally. maybe even layout over, why not. 2012-04-20 00:20 want to speed up and leave the legacy tools behind us so we can be faster and cheaper on future hardware 2012-04-20 00:21 oh and I hope the migen switch actually happens 2012-04-20 00:21 and gives us faster memory and then higher resolution, while the board moves from analog video-out to digital video-out 2012-04-20 00:21 more pixel depth ! :) 2012-04-20 00:21 also, sure 2012-04-20 00:22 i'm getting very tired of staring at all that green ;-) 2012-04-20 00:22 with our (slow and good) speed, by the time we are done the master schemers have already dueled a bit more and there will be less options 2012-04-20 00:22 I understand broadcom is fighting, they should 2012-04-20 00:23 unlike some others who are already 'done', broadcom still has a chance to maintain their independence 2012-04-20 00:23 so management should work hard to keep their good paychecks coming :-) 2012-04-20 00:23 and they're moving in the direction of openness, which is always a good thing 2012-04-20 00:24 where do you see that? 2012-04-20 00:24 e.g., they released fairly detailed soc documentation. that wasn't around before. 2012-04-20 00:25 and we've seen companies even go in the opposite direction 2012-04-20 00:25 everybody is competing for limited developer talent 2012-04-20 00:25 it's also nice that they're releasing their schematics, at least (nice) at a symbolic level 2012-04-20 00:26 but sure, every chip with an open datasheet is a good chip 2012-04-20 00:26 rz2k: what do you plan to do with the beaglebone? 2012-04-20 00:27 i prefer companies to compete on openness than on who has the prettier shackles ;-) 2012-04-20 00:27 ha ha, just laughing 2012-04-20 00:28 I read the beaglebone page and see this https://img.skitch.com/20120127-r654se4xy3xi1pnp8hgxn72weg.png 2012-04-20 00:28 is that an ipad? 2012-04-20 00:28 that's something for Sebastien 2012-04-20 00:28 so the ipad is one thing, and the beaglebone powers the led next to it? (just kidding, just kidding :-)) 2012-04-20 00:29 I'll try to remember my embedded linux skills, maybe do some simple camera or video stuff. I'm not a hardcore dev with 15y+ of experience. :3 2012-04-20 00:29 I just hooked up a webcam to a mobile openwrt router to build a streaming cam for Jon 2012-04-20 00:29 worked like a charm, 40 USD cost, 4 hours continuous streaming over wifi 2012-04-20 00:32 http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=1338 2012-04-20 00:32 have you introduced him to MIDI on the M1 yet ? :) 2012-04-20 00:33 good point, not yet 2012-04-20 00:34 rz2k: please keep us posted about your beaglebone endeavor 2012-04-20 00:34 hah, gotcha ! :) 2012-04-20 00:34 ok :) 2012-04-20 00:34 I understand that many people feel this urge to move past the boring desktop/notebook world, and it's tough to find a good starting point in the 'beyond' world 2012-04-20 00:35 any step is good, as long as you learn and quickly adjust so that you get the most satisfaction out of it 2012-04-20 00:35 I don't have anything 'better' than the beaglebone or pi for you either 2012-04-20 00:36 the stuff we work on here is also pretty exotic and requires you to be in a drugged state, more or less, to enjoy :-) 2012-04-20 00:36 though one you get the hang I think it's pretty cool and rewarding 2012-04-20 00:37 oh btw, I saw this Ikea & TCL teaming up news. Jon and I are working on some connections with large furniture makers 2012-04-20 00:37 maybe with Ikea making such a highly public move, something interesting may emerge there 2012-04-20 00:37 I think Ikea has a great sales channel to sell goods that include embedded electronics 2012-04-20 00:38 Best Buy is closing stores (thank god), I don't think Ikea is :-) 2012-04-20 00:38 http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/apr/17/tuning-in-to-tv-new-ikea-furniture-line-to-offer-i/ 2012-04-20 00:41 rz2k: hey, still there? :-) 2012-04-20 00:41 I keep reading the beaglebone page 2012-04-20 00:41 ran into the section "Is this just a TI marketing gimmick?" 2012-04-20 00:41 ha ha 2012-04-20 00:41 I see they listened a bit better in the propaganda 101 class 2012-04-20 00:42 yeah, they tried to confront that, but we know the truth :3 2012-04-20 00:42 but ... with me living in Beijing ... *NOTHING* can beat the masters I see working at this game every day around me 2012-04-20 00:42 I'm sure circuitco is funded by TI. 2012-04-20 00:42 the guys here in the capital are so good at it, they will make your head hurt with all their twists and turns in manipulating people :-) 2012-04-20 00:42 that TI & Broadcom stuff looks like childs play in comparison 2012-04-20 00:43 anyway 2012-04-20 00:43 so no, it's not a TI marketing gimmick 2012-04-20 00:43 of course not 2012-04-20 00:43 they even answered it already, ahem 2012-04-20 00:43 :-) 2012-04-20 00:44 it seems the beaglebone is more or less directly aimed at arduino 2012-04-20 00:45 which already is quite an eye opener since for any real open project, there is no competition in the old sense of who owns what. 2012-04-20 00:45 say for our work here, if some other great 'open' project comes along. oh my, we are so so scared. 2012-04-20 00:46 really 2012-04-20 00:46 oh god, that must be the end 2012-04-20 00:46 ah no wait, maybe not? 2012-04-20 00:46 check their cloud9 ide thats installed on sd card by default 2012-04-20 00:46 its javascript controlling hardware :S 2012-04-20 00:46 there are exactly 2 options, in each such case: 2012-04-20 00:46 1) the project is not actually open, then of course it is not interesting and most likely there are far better closed projects out there already 2012-04-20 00:46 2) the project is open, or parts of it, and then those parts are also *reusable*, by definition 2012-04-20 00:47 so any successful open project creates opportunities for other open projects 2012-04-20 00:47 but I think 90% of 'open' projects are not very open beyond a new trick at redefining what open means 2012-04-20 00:47 which makes them irrelevant in the context of the actual open projects :-) 2012-04-20 00:48 hope this makes sense :-) 2012-04-20 00:48 that's so funny that they answer the "marketing gimmick" question themselves there 2012-04-20 00:49 actually I think if it is a marketing gimmick, you can still try to use it to your advantage as much as possible 2012-04-20 00:49 probably you should 2012-04-20 00:49 but watch out, they don't care that much about how well it actually works for you... 2012-04-20 00:50 there's no room for that in the, ahem, marketing budget :-) 2012-04-20 00:56 so the question is not whether it is marketing, but whether it is a gimmick... 2012-04-20 01:00 :-) 2012-04-20 01:12 nice, xiangfu did his first smt factory visit :-) http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=1361 2012-04-20 01:15 orson_zhai has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 01:15 orson_zhai has quit [#qi-hardware] 2012-04-20 01:42 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 01:44 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 01:50 Openfree` has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 01:58 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 02:01 wpwrak, i see you have a 'Unclassified > werner-17042012 > DIODE-SOT-AXC', is this diode symbol an actually like SOT-xx-x you created ? 2012-04-20 02:02 since this symbol is the very common that I want to use, so i'd like to just rename it as for 'diode.lib'. How do you think ? 2012-04-20 02:04 since we have like 0805 for this same symbol. :) 2012-04-20 02:05 i have a few diode-in-sot symbols. they're all in dual_diode.lib 2012-04-20 02:07 good quesion about diode-sot-acx, though :) lemme check .. 2012-04-20 02:08 is that painful or not? http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57416413-94/apis-take-center-stage-at-oracle-google-trial/ 2012-04-20 02:08 it's basically equivalent to "DS" 2012-04-20 02:08 I think many times our discussions about patents, copyright etc. are totally removed from the real world 2012-04-20 02:08 wolfspraul: it's a moving battle :) 2012-04-20 02:08 once any of this stuff would get to an actual trial, it would be mangled down in horrible ways unimaginable to us anyway 2012-04-20 02:08 that's not to say that we should let down our quality standards, not at all 2012-04-20 02:09 but I can painfully imagine how the poor jury and judges and others have to endure these infinite attempts at APIs and what not 2012-04-20 02:09 cladamw: DIODE-SOT-AXC emphasizes the characteristic of being a diode. DS emphasizes the package (3 pins). both are equivalent. 2012-04-20 02:10 already wondering whether they will be caught up in rush hour traffic jam on the way home, or get out a bit earlier today! :-) 2012-04-20 02:11 cladamw: similar to your 74AUP1G08GW,125 emphasizing the package with my 74X1G08_5 putting slightly more focus on the function 2012-04-20 02:13 wolfspraul: regarding juries, i wonder how a direct attack on the basis of the patent system would work. namely the legal fiction that "infringing" on a patent implies that any value has been obtained from it 2012-04-20 02:13 wpwrak, okay ... so just a name with emphasizing 3 pins. but since I'm now need to use 0805 with such same symbol (surely KiCad has it ), so do we keep to use yours or we create another generic naming for diode lib ? 2012-04-20 02:14 although we knew the model link we can link to specific one. :) 2012-04-20 02:14 cladamw: you can't use DIODE-SOT-AXC "as is", because it uses pins 1 and 3. but you could make an adapted version for pins 1 and 2, compatible with 0805, etc. 2012-04-20 02:15 the AXC means: pin 1 = anode, pin 2 = absent, pin 3 = cathode 2012-04-20 02:16 wpwrak, aha ... i see. since I don't get into seeing its pins assignment, sorry that i asked a stupid question. oaky... now I go to create a generic one. 2012-04-20 02:16 who knows you know it's all speculation 2012-04-20 02:16 a diode for 0805 (or also any number of through-hole footprints) would be DIODE-AC, if following the same naming convention. the "-SOT" was probably a bad idea, although it helps to clarify why we need the "AXC" 2012-04-20 02:17 so I'll give a named 'DIODE-AC' :-O 2012-04-20 02:17 I think we are reasonably safe from vicious attacks, and respect other peoples work (of course). should be fine. 2012-04-20 02:17 wolfspraul: sure. i just wonder if anyone has actually tried that. this ought to be the weak point of a jury. 2012-04-20 02:17 I will pay more attention to trademarks too, stay away from trademarks that are being gobbled up with whatever money making scheme. 2012-04-20 02:18 does anyone know how the performance of a pcb antenna (say wifi or 802.15.4) is affected by a strong magnet nearby? 2012-04-20 02:19 the magnetism doesn't matter. the metal of the magnet probably does 2012-04-20 02:19 can magnets in general impact the performance of ics, do they have an impact on the electrons flowing around? 2012-04-20 02:19 (assuming a conventional magnet) 2012-04-20 02:20 ok sure, the metal is clear. but the magnetic field has no impact? 2012-04-20 02:20 normally, very little 2012-04-20 02:21 of course, if we're talking about an MRI or such, things change 2012-04-20 02:21 MRI? 2012-04-20 02:21 cladamw: DIODE-AC sounds good to me. or simple DIODE. it's the most basic layout anyway :) 2012-04-20 02:22 I was thinking of magnets used to make things hold onto each other 2012-04-20 02:22 wpwrak, yuh. okay. 2012-04-20 02:22 Magnetic resonance imaging 2012-04-20 02:22 oh, these are WEAK ;-) 2012-04-20 02:22 ok 2012-04-20 02:23 so you would not even expect an impact on a pcb antenna 2012-04-20 02:23 great :-) 2012-04-20 02:23 I was worried the field may just crowd out the spectrum, or whatever. since it's magnetic, the rf is electromagnetic (?) well, I am guessing/wondering 2012-04-20 02:25 the magnet just has a few millitesla at most. and it's fairly static. it's field changes that cause electrons to move. 2012-04-20 02:25 ah that makes sense 2012-04-20 02:25 strong magnets are in the order of 1 tesla or more. and even then, if the field is static, not much happens 2012-04-20 02:26 ok but say you plug your electronic device against a metal wall, to attach it there 2012-04-20 02:26 i'd worry a lot about the metal wall :) 2012-04-20 02:26 then the mechanical action of moving the logic board into the field, or changing the field (?) because it's now holding to the other side could cause a small disturbance? 2012-04-20 02:27 but yeah, I got it 2012-04-20 02:27 static field, weak, etc. 2012-04-20 02:28 wolfspraul: i think you are in the clear for regular magnetic forces in a household 2012-04-20 02:28 there will be a small disturbance, yes. not sure if it'll be strong enough to upset reception. in any case, it's very limited in time. while the huge reflecting metal wall will be there - in comparison - forever 2012-04-20 02:29 emi from powertools is as bad as it gets for most 'disturbances of the force' ;) 2012-04-20 02:29 roh: excluding present company, perhaps ;-) oh wait, sebastien isn;t around. then i guess we're safe :) (he sometimes gets ideas about the dark side of physics) 2012-04-20 02:29 yeah, power tools are evil. sparks and all 2012-04-20 02:30 power tools? 2012-04-20 02:30 like what? 2012-04-20 02:30 drills, saws, ... 2012-04-20 02:30 ok 2012-04-20 02:30 [commit] Adam Wang: added diode.lib (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/0fa17f6 2012-04-20 02:31 [commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/8e136ef 2012-04-20 02:31 i'd worry mainly about the sparks because they cover a wide range of the spectrum 2012-04-20 02:31 the more pedestrian things normally don't reach into higher frequencies 2012-04-20 02:34 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Soldering 2012-04-20 02:34 I copy some videos from this factory. not sure about the license. I just uploaded first. 2012-04-20 02:36 soldering ... how not to do it ;-) 2012-04-20 02:39 xiangfu: i didn't know you had entered the film business, directing a horror movie ;-) well, 0201 #1 and #2 have a happy ending, but ... 2012-04-20 02:42 xiangfu: ok wait. let's find out the license and delete unless it's specifically ok to upload them as public domain or whatever. 2012-04-20 02:43 these clips look like instructional clips from a smt or reflow maker maybe 2012-04-20 02:43 I understand that smt factry staff 'gave' them to you, but we need to determine the origin or license, don't want to accumulate content of unclear origins in the qi wiki... 2012-04-20 02:44 once we accept some sloppiness, I think it's a slippery slope and over time we loose control of the qi content quality altogether 2012-04-20 02:44 had enough trouble with Carlos students freely copy-pasting a while back :-) 2012-04-20 02:45 立碑 = Erected a monument. nice ;-) 2012-04-20 02:45 those are nice videos btw, but we need to determine the origin 2012-04-20 02:46 wolfspraul, ok. 2012-04-20 02:52 we determined that we need to delete the videos until the origin is clear 2012-04-20 02:52 the guy who gave them to xiangfu 'forgot' where they are from :-) 2012-04-20 02:54 they look like videos from a pick & place or reflow maker to me 2012-04-20 02:59 立碑 = Erected a monument :-) . 2012-04-20 03:04 hi, how can i get back MiscControl.sch from git server ? I mean typing what cmds. :-) https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/blob/030dc54f9ffa2674f666940d647d3b20bfc1294e/r4/MiscControl.sch 2012-04-20 03:05 since my local MiscControl.sch got unexpected loss lots of texts after I filled-in non standard pdf link (i.e. includes non-ASCII code link.) :( 2012-04-20 03:06 except using that 'download' icon to download, is there other git cmd, i can use ? 2012-04-20 03:06 cladamw, git checkout 030dc54f9ffa2674f666940d647d3b20bfc1294e -- r4/MiscControl.sch 2012-04-20 03:06 don't use non-ASCII :) 2012-04-20 03:08 if you're looking for non-ASCII, here's some more: MCE-100 and SCJ368R1NUS0B00G both contain things vim highlights. in MCE-100, they're at 5.6mV/Pa, ????9.7 2012-04-20 03:09 in SCJ368R1NUS0B00G, 3.5???? Phone 2012-04-20 03:10 xiangfu, http://dpaste.com/734533/ 2012-04-20 03:11 wpwrak, yeah ... seems i have to remove them. 2012-04-20 03:11 xiangfu what err of that ? 2012-04-20 03:12 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 03:12 xiangfu maybe i just quickly use 'download' ? 2012-04-20 03:13 i think you could just drop the r4/, since you're already in r4/ 2012-04-20 03:15 cladamw, yes. try remove r4/ 2012-04-20 03:16 xiangfu, wpwrak yeah . you are right. tks. the file is back. :) 2012-04-20 03:26 someone trying out OpenRISC: http://rwmj.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/this-could-be-interesting/ 2012-04-20 03:44 [commit] Adam Wang: fixed non-ASCII texts (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b01d671 2012-04-20 03:47 wpwrak, last time you said /EXPAND is AUTO or manually added in ? 2012-04-20 03:52 * DocScrutinizer moos, mesmerized 2012-04-20 03:53 (for those wondering, check wikipedia for mesmerize, it's related to magnetism doing strange things to human brain ;-D 2012-04-20 03:53 ) 2012-04-20 03:56 "animalischer Magnetismus" - ROTFL 2012-04-20 03:59 wolfspraul: static magnetic fields usually have pretty little impact on electric circuits. It needs specially designed components exploiting exotic effects like Hall-effect or GMR, to even *detect* magnetic fields 2012-04-20 04:00 chokes with ferromagnetic core however can get saturated by static magnetic fields, causing a massive loss of inductance of the choke 2012-04-20 04:00 see transductor 2012-04-20 04:01 ok, very interesting - thanks! 2012-04-20 04:23 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 04:27 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 05:13 paroneay` has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 05:13 rektide has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 05:20 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 05:25 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 05:54 orson-zhai has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 06:01 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 06:03 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 06:25 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 07:21 DocScrutinizer has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 07:27 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 07:48 [commit] Adam Wang: for better looking (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/fec2275 2012-04-20 08:43 Martix has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 09:35 Martix has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 09:39 [commit] Xiangfu: update CON7x2 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/9af36fd 2012-04-20 09:44 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 09:53 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 10:12 Openfree` has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 10:16 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 10:40 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 10:43 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 10:56 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 10:57 does qi hardware have a competitor? is there such a thing as competition in open hardware world? 2012-04-20 10:59 i often see how you bash arduino or bb or rpi.. but why do you do that? are they not "open" enough? or maybe you feel a competitor? 2012-04-20 11:29 bb and rpi arent open at all. :3 2012-04-20 11:30 Martix has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 11:58 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 12:00 paroneayea has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 12:00 kyak: you see me bashing them? I should re-read the chat archives and improve my language then :-) 2012-04-20 12:01 the arduino project in particular is amazing 2012-04-20 12:01 I think I told the story how I was wondering around an 8 or more level bookstore in Tokyo once, and felt totally lost among all the Japanese characters 2012-04-20 12:01 until I finally saw a book about... 2012-04-20 12:01 ARDUINO :-) 2012-04-20 12:01 then I knew there must be friends there, somewhere in this foreign city :-) 2012-04-20 12:02 the pi is also very interesting because it adds hdmi output (and 256 meg ram) at that pricepoint 2012-04-20 12:03 although so far I was able to solve all problems in that category with openwrt-based routers 2012-04-20 12:03 I agree that there is no competition in open projects, at best they can help and lift up each other 2012-04-20 12:03 that's the whole point imho 2012-04-20 12:05 kyak: what do you think of these projects? [bb/pi/arduino] are you using any of them? what do you like the most? 2012-04-20 12:07 wolfspraul: i'm using arduino and bb to showcase control systems development in Matlab/Simulink 2012-04-20 12:07 mostly for academic 2012-04-20 12:08 Lego NXT is the third one 2012-04-20 12:08 nice! please tell us more 2012-04-20 12:08 i'm not sure if you are interested, it's not realted to open source :) 2012-04-20 12:08 what is the best part of them? (what you like the most) 2012-04-20 12:08 well 2012-04-20 12:08 I think it is, actually. the boundary is not clear, right? 2012-04-20 12:09 and you speak freely, so with your own actions of freely sharing what you do and learnt, you make them more open :-) 2012-04-20 12:09 we are using Lego and Arduino to show control systems development, and bb to show different image/audio/video processing techniques 2012-04-20 12:09 you seem to have a really large base actually 2012-04-20 12:09 you are a Ben user, also arduino, bb, milkymist - wow! :-) 2012-04-20 12:09 http://www.mathworks.com/academia/arduino-software/ 2012-04-20 12:10 (on the left you can find the same for bb/ lego etc) 2012-04-20 12:11 so you hook up any of this shit to your laptop, develop some block diagrams in Simulink, and then see it running on real hardware.. that's in a nutshell 2012-04-20 12:11 what is simulink? (checking) 2012-04-20 12:12 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 12:12 it is a software for modeling of dynamic systems 2012-04-20 12:12 the key point is that you can test your design early, and then you are using automatic C/C++ code generation for implementation 2012-04-20 12:13 so these cheap and available hardware like arduino help us demonstrate many of modern paradigms, like model-based design 2012-04-20 12:14 how much do you pay for simulink? 2012-04-20 12:15 if you use it commercially, a lot (well, hard to define "a lot"). I wouldn't afford that. Company would affort it. FOr educational use, it's much0much cheaper 2012-04-20 12:15 he 2012-04-20 12:16 I think that will always remain a strange concept to me, I maybe a little old fashioned about 'education' 2012-04-20 12:16 it becomes very clear why if you think that they are students now, and in 5-10 years they are working for some companies 2012-04-20 12:17 what are the closest free alternatives you know that could solve a similar problem? 2012-04-20 12:17 there is nothing like that in open source. 2012-04-20 12:17 interesting 2012-04-20 12:17 not even close 2012-04-20 12:18 there are non-free competitors, but they are also far away 2012-04-20 12:18 I will read more about it 2012-04-20 12:18 thanks! always eager to learn 2012-04-20 12:18 :-) 2012-04-20 12:18 Matlab/Simulink is a de-facto standard for modeling and simulation and deployment in automotive/aerospace/defense 2012-04-20 12:21 and btw, Simulink models can run on Ben (just like they run on arduino or bb or TI processors or whatever else): https://github.com/kyak/nanonote_ert 2012-04-20 12:22 probably what could be intersting for you is that you can generate HDL code from Simulink models: http://www.mathworks.com/products/hdl-coder/ 2012-04-20 12:23 that's enough for non-free/non-OSS :) 2012-04-20 12:24 in your projects/work, what comes after simulink? 2012-04-20 12:24 you first model a dynamic system in it, then ? 2012-04-20 12:24 how does it go to an arduino or bb? 2012-04-20 12:24 for open source alternatives, Octave is pretty much the clone of Matlab and Scilab is a clone of Simulink. But again, it's light years behind 2012-04-20 12:25 it's compiled and linked with libraries, then executed as a program? via hdl it requires an fpga? 2012-04-20 12:26 then Simulink generates C code from your model and you can feed it into your IDE/toolchain to deploy on the final target 2012-04-20 12:26 for hdl it requires and fpga or hdl simulator 2012-04-20 12:27 ok it starts to make sense :-) 2012-04-20 12:30 it actually makes a lot of sense, and also pays my bills :) I used to work for several automotive companies developing the software for ECU's using Simulink (and i'm not a programmer, i don't have to be to develop in Matlab/Simulink). And now i'm what is called an "Applicatin Engineer". Teaching others how to solve their problems using our tools 2012-04-20 12:30 what is an ECU? 2012-04-20 12:31 Electronic Control Unit 2012-04-20 12:31 i thought all people in Germany know that ;) 2012-04-20 12:31 or Engine Control Unit, which describes it better 2012-04-20 12:35 still wondering about scilab and simulink 2012-04-20 12:36 if the models are simple, at some point they must be simple enough to be representable with scilab, no? 2012-04-20 12:36 so why wouldn't you use scilab until you reach a feature that is only possible in simulink, and then use simulink for those advanced models? 2012-04-20 12:36 I would probably want to approach problems bottom-up 2012-04-20 12:37 it's not the model's simplicity/hardness that matter.. It's a question of your complete workflow,.. Like having requirements linked to your models and back, code generation, intensive early verification and validation, certification artefacts.. you get nothing of this (and many else) 2012-04-20 12:38 but you are so well versed in free operating systems and tools :-) 2012-04-20 12:39 if even you say that you can't do it there, that's amazing 2012-04-20 12:39 i like open source :) 2012-04-20 12:39 but when i test octave vs matlab and octave is like 100 times slower, what can i do? 2012-04-20 12:40 I will read more about this, and try out. slowly moving to modeling, digital systems, dynamic systems, etc. 2012-04-20 12:40 the only 'pros' is that octave actually runs on Ben :) 2012-04-20 12:40 yeah, amazing 2012-04-20 12:40 I'm trying to find a reason to use it :-) 2012-04-20 12:40 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 12:40 can I model signal filters with it? 2012-04-20 12:40 sure can 2012-04-20 12:40 I should try 2012-04-20 12:40 ah ok 2012-04-20 12:40 good! :-) 2012-04-20 12:42 yeah, i've shown octave running on ben to my collegues, and they liked that "small Matlab" :) But then they show me their iphones running matlab in a cloud, and i feel like i'm from 90s :) 2012-04-20 12:42 oh sure, I can imagine 2012-04-20 12:43 they run matlab on a cloud server, and only the gui on the iphone? 2012-04-20 12:43 right 2012-04-20 12:43 nice 2012-04-20 12:43 and it's "free" btw.. you only got to have a license 2012-04-20 12:43 well, I see through that definition of 'free', easy to say 'no thanks' 2012-04-20 12:44 but the usability is great, no doubt 2012-04-20 12:44 you could model systems and let them run on your milkymist board via hdl 2012-04-20 12:44 do you have other fpga boards as well? 2012-04-20 12:45 we have spartan-3a, spartan sp-605 and virtex ml-605 is on it's way.. 2012-04-20 12:46 probably can find something from ALtera as well 2012-04-20 12:46 he 2012-04-20 12:47 is there a place for "user" hdl code on milkymist? 2012-04-20 12:47 what do you mean? 2012-04-20 12:47 i mean, it has hdl soc and then all you got is C? 2012-04-20 12:47 it's like another layer 2012-04-20 12:47 you can synthesize additional hdl next to the soc 2012-04-20 12:48 ah! 2012-04-20 12:48 that's exactly what i asked :) 2012-04-20 12:48 but it's not well documented yet, so someone doing it and documenting the process would be very valuable 2012-04-20 12:48 kristianpaul has been doing some stuff 2012-04-20 12:49 does it have a lot of area left from soc (even roughly)? 2012-04-20 12:49 yes, over 50% I think 2012-04-20 12:51 so one could make it a "dual core" :) 2012-04-20 12:51 oh, definitely 2012-04-20 12:51 especially since the lm32 core is small 2012-04-20 12:51 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 12:52 but it's all work, and nobody on this right now afaik 2012-04-20 13:09 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 13:17 alright, yum install scilab is running :-) I think I am stupid enough that scilab will be enough for me :-) 2012-04-20 13:19 it's reasonably enough to taste modelling 2012-04-20 13:29 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 13:32 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 13:37 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 13:40 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 13:51 infobot has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 13:52 kyak: what kind of systems are you typically modeling? 2012-04-20 13:56 hmm, i'd say there is a bit of competition between open hw projects. e.g., arduino and ben should have a little bit of overlap. 2012-04-20 13:56 wolfspra1l: typical applications are control systems, digital signal processing and embedded systems.. but there are many more applications 2012-04-20 13:56 and all compete for public exposure 2012-04-20 13:57 so it's in part common goals, in part competition among each other. nothing new really. also ipad and the samsung tab share a similar relationship. only that the companies involved have too much money for lawyers :) 2012-04-20 13:58 wpwrak: but then, arduino doesn't have a fully-fledged operating system, while Ben doesn't provide the number of IO arduino provides.. so it separates immediately target audience in two parts at least 2012-04-20 13:58 [commit] Werner Almesberger: components/EXPAND: added DIODE (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/969b4d8 2012-04-20 13:59 i'm not sure how i can hook up a DC motor to Ben.. and even if i can, how do i control it? 2012-04-20 13:59 kyak: sure, they're not the same. but they have some overlap. if your application is in that overlap area or if your idea of what you want to do is sufficiently fuzzy, both may appear suitable 2012-04-20 13:59 (hooking things up to ben) UBB ;-) 2012-04-20 14:00 kyak: thanks [models] 2012-04-20 14:00 remember, we have stable XGA out on something that's basically UBB. beat that, arduino ;-) 2012-04-20 14:01 hehe 2012-04-20 14:02 at the moment, i use UBB mainly to program microcontrollers. i have ben-based programmers for silabs (8051), avr, and pic18. they're all little more than a UBB plus a bit of cable. well, unless i want to go fancy and make a luxury version with spring-loaded pins. 2012-04-20 14:03 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 14:04 wpwrak: did you try generating a PWM signal with UBB? Is it even possible taking we are running linux? 2012-04-20 14:07 depends a bit on how accurate it has to be. for VGA, i found i had to disable everything else, at the level of effort i put into that (may be possible to let the CPU run a little in the background, but it would need more work) 2012-04-20 14:08 if your timing is less demanding, then you can probably get away with more concurrent activity 2012-04-20 14:08 what was the timing again you achieved for VGA out? 2012-04-20 14:09 you have distortions at several levels: memory bus contention, cache misses, and then cpu scheduling 2012-04-20 14:10 at 1024x768, the pixel clock was 56 MHz: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/web/ubb-vga-pub-1024-medium.jpg 2012-04-20 14:12 so if i want to drive my motor with ~490 Hz PWM signal, i can assume it would work? Or you never know untill you try? :) 2012-04-20 14:12 what resolution does the duty cycle have to have ? 2012-04-20 14:13 in any case, anything within a few kHz isn't very demanding. you'll need to experiment a bit, though. it's not something the chip is designed to do, so you a bit of lateral thinking is needed 2012-04-20 14:14 just like ubb-vga pretends to be an MMC device :) 2012-04-20 14:15 yes, it should be something within few kHz 2012-04-20 14:17 one thing that limits ubb-vga is that it runs entirely in user space. there are some things you can't do there. 2012-04-20 14:17 speaking about distortions you mentioned above.. are they also the case if i run my code on Ben in "barebone" mode (i.e. passing control from uboot directly to my code) 2012-04-20 14:18 [commit] Adam Wang: set pins electircal type to Power input (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/94a5fe5 2012-04-20 14:18 [commit] Adam Wang: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:kicad-libs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/1e1555e 2012-04-20 14:18 well, ubb-vga pretty much does a "barebone" mode ;-) i didn't turn off the cache, though 2012-04-20 14:18 i see 2012-04-20 14:19 i'll need to add a date and hour tag to kicad-libs-components.pdf :) 2012-04-20 14:20 ubb-vga still has access to the full linux functionality before and after its pixel-pushing mode. so, for example, i can load the screen content from a file system 2012-04-20 14:21 by not running in kernel mode (although i shut down interrupts and such), i can't halt the cpu until an interrupt happens. that makes my synchonization with timer a few clock cycles less accurate than would be possible 2012-04-20 14:21 but yes, we're talking about tens of nanonseconds here 2012-04-20 14:25 if you want to have full linux running in parallel, you could arm a timer to fire a bit before the moment you really need it, then busy-wait until the right time. this assumes the jitter (mainly the longest amount of time the kernel is running with interrupts disabled) is below the time between events 2012-04-20 14:25 ok.. this is pretty good! do i understand correctly that UBB pins (all 8 of them) act as GPIO? So we can make them act as digital inputs or outputs 2012-04-20 14:25 wpwrak, yes, add data and hour tag as i'm doing DRC. :-) All err I debugged out excepts 66 warnings. well ... it's late here. Needs to fix them next week. :-) 2012-04-20 14:26 lars also suggested to try making the whole thing dma-based and even do MMC controller operations via DMA. i didn't explore that. it may give you even better control. 2012-04-20 14:26 wpwrak, with data and tag then we can track back if need on checking kicad-libs-components.pdf , tks a lot. :-) 2012-04-20 14:27 (ubb) six of them are full GPIOs. all but one have an internal pull-up. plus, you have VDD which you can switch on or off, but only slowly. (there's a big cap on it) 2012-04-20 14:28 wpwrak: ok, thanks 2012-04-20 14:28 cladamw: i update the catalog one or twice a day. so if you change anything in the evening, you can be reasonably sure there's an updated catalog by the time you wake up again :) 2012-04-20 14:29 wpwrak, hi, alright. Nice. :) 2012-04-20 14:29 night here. cu 2012-04-20 14:31 kyak: VDD has another quirk: the cap is on the wrong side of the switch, so it adds to the inrush current. that's why it's often necessary to "precharge" external devices. 2012-04-20 14:32 "precharge" = disable VDD, drive all I/Os high. wait ~100 ms. then enable VDD. this way, current will crawl through the I/Os and charge the caps on the device side, including the 10.1 uF inside the ben 2012-04-20 14:58 wpwrak: so if i don't "precharge", i can't use the GPIOs? 2012-04-20 15:13 if you don't precharge, the ben's 3.3 V supply may drop when you enable power to UBB and the ben freezes 2012-04-20 15:14 it all depends on what exactly is connected there, of course 2012-04-20 15:15 lesson learned for the ya: that switch should have a current-limiter :) 2012-04-20 15:16 orson_zhai has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 15:19 qwebirc97987 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 15:20 orson_zhai has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 15:21 Hello there 2012-04-20 15:21 Hi 2012-04-20 15:21 I want to buy a miny computer 2012-04-20 15:21 something like raspberry pi 2012-04-20 15:22 could you help me please?! 2012-04-20 15:28 infobot has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 15:29 qwebirc97987: what do you want to use it for? and how open must it be? 2012-04-20 15:30 GNUtoo-desktop has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 15:35 emeb has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 15:36 ok 2012-04-20 15:36 I just want to run some little processes all day 2012-04-20 15:36 with it 2012-04-20 15:36 and I need a LAN on it 2012-04-20 15:36 I want to have a GNU/Linux distribution on it 2012-04-20 15:38 does it need its own screen or the ability to connect a screen, or just ethernet? 2012-04-20 15:39 wpwrak: ok, thanks for explanations :) 2012-04-20 15:45 ethernet is enough if I can program it from my pc 2012-04-20 15:45 *Sorry for my bad English!* 2012-04-20 15:45 *I dont now English very well* 2012-04-20 15:46 but it is better to have the ability to connect to a screen 2012-04-20 15:48 orson_zhai has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 15:50 Beagle Bone was mentioned yesterday, it has ethernet and probably a way to connect an LCD panel (haven't checked that part) 2012-04-20 15:50 Raspberry Pi might be useful, once it starts shipping in large quantities; the video driver is a binary blob though 2012-04-20 15:50 SheevaPlug is network-only 2012-04-20 15:57 mth: thank you very much for your help! 2012-04-20 15:59 maybe a wifi/internet router might suit your needs as well; some can be reflashed with Linux 2012-04-20 15:59 check for example OpenWRT supported devices 2012-04-20 16:03 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 16:13 I'd say a Raspberry Pi, if you can wait a couple of months 2012-04-20 16:14 two months (tm)? ;) 2012-04-20 16:18 Alya: are you sure Raspberry Pi is available for next two months? 2012-04-20 16:19 How do tou now that? 2012-04-20 16:20 *How do *you* now that?! 2012-04-20 16:22 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 16:32 "two months" is a joke about Pandora, who have had trouble actually building and shipping units 2012-04-20 16:56 I hope the R-Pi team will handle this better 2012-04-20 17:07 the sheevaplug is quite good 2012-04-20 17:08 noone here uses sheevaplugs? 2012-04-20 17:08 wolfspra1l: could you get 'openssl speed' running in the milkymist? 2012-04-20 17:09 viric, I was about to buy one, then I heard about the rasperry pi 2012-04-20 17:09 the r-pi has half or a quarter of the sheevaplug ram 2012-04-20 17:09 ram is of big vlaue :) 2012-04-20 17:09 value 2012-04-20 17:09 Ayla: unfortunately, the sheevaplug and the guruplug have awful power supplies. I replaced the capacitors twice, in it 2012-04-20 17:10 but very compact, at least. 2012-04-20 17:10 it's nice to plug 220V directly to the small computer :) 2012-04-20 17:11 imagine the nanonote with a 220V plug. 2012-04-20 17:15 mth: how is the state of pandora? 2012-04-20 17:15 (I own a gp2x) 2012-04-20 17:15 and then there is that A-10 or so... 2012-04-20 17:16 what's the name of that small computer? 2012-04-20 17:43 nice the excap from dx have right chip ! 2012-04-20 17:52 viric, I will need a sheevaplug like device soon 2012-04-20 17:53 is there a way to get a decent and reliable power supply? 2012-04-20 17:54 GNUtoo-desktop: the capacitors will explode, you just replace them 2012-04-20 17:54 GNUtoo-desktop: or.. it simply wants 5V. Half the sheevaplug is the powersupply, the other half is the computer 2012-04-20 17:54 yes but the big problem is that I can't do that if the box is in another country 2012-04-20 17:54 If you have a 5V 1.5A power supply it should work 2012-04-20 17:54 ah 2012-04-20 17:54 ok 2012-04-20 17:54 Then I would not get namely a sheevaplug 2012-04-20 17:54 they sell 'dreamplug' too. 2012-04-20 17:54 which has a power supply *apart* 2012-04-20 17:55 yes but in france hackable devices sell sheevaplugs 2012-04-20 17:55 not dreamplugs? 2012-04-20 17:55 no, I don't think so 2012-04-20 17:55 Maybe they improved the power supply silently... I don't know. Mine has around three years, maybe 2012-04-20 17:55 ok 2012-04-20 17:56 I know the guruplugs had a lot more troubles 2012-04-20 17:56 and the quickfix they did was to add a fan 2012-04-20 17:56 here's my use case 2012-04-20 17:56 GNUtoo-desktop: aren't you writing gnunet? 2012-04-20 17:56 I want a private email server 2012-04-20 17:56 I remember a 'gnutoo' from gnunet... maybe I'm confused though. :) 2012-04-20 17:57 I tried gnunet once 2012-04-20 17:57 GNUtoo-desktop: I use it as a private email server 2012-04-20 17:57 but it was some years ago 2012-04-20 17:57 so to get a mail server I need 2 box 2012-04-20 17:57 one here 2012-04-20 17:57 and one somewhere else for backup purpose, in case my box here goes down 2012-04-20 17:57 ok 2012-04-20 17:58 so the mail get delivered to the alternate MX record 2012-04-20 17:58 that would be my use of sheevaplug 2012-04-20 17:58 fine 2012-04-20 17:58 I tried to convince a friend to be a backup mx for me, but we still have not configured his side :) 2012-04-20 17:59 ok 2012-04-20 17:59 for me it would be my brother 2012-04-20 17:59 one day he's ok with it 2012-04-20 17:59 and the other day he's not 2012-04-20 17:59 MTA keep trying the sending three days... 2012-04-20 18:00 so I go on just expecting that I'll be able to bring the machine up in those three days ;) 2012-04-20 18:00 btw I need a domain name for it right? 2012-04-20 18:00 you need mx entries in some domain 2012-04-20 18:00 that's all? 2012-04-20 18:00 do you plan to run in from a dynamic ip? 2012-04-20 18:00 I tought that because of anti-spam rules I needed a more serious domain name than the one I have(dyndns) 2012-04-20 18:01 for a dynamic ip, the big problem is *sending mail* from it. But not receiving 2012-04-20 18:01 because I've setup my MTA(exim4) and my mail get refused 2012-04-20 18:01 GNUtoo-desktop: that's quite unrelated to the domain. It's related to your IP. 2012-04-20 18:01 I hire a sending service. 2012-04-20 18:01 (at dyndns btw) 2012-04-20 18:02 hmmm, but the website that blocked me proposed to unblock my domain name or something like taht 2012-04-20 18:02 *that 2012-04-20 18:02 I don't think so. 2012-04-20 18:02 I'm not sure they accept gnutoo.homelinux.org 2012-04-20 18:02 ok 2012-04-20 18:03 I'll ask to someone who has everything setup 2012-04-20 18:03 I have everything set up 2012-04-20 18:03 :) 2012-04-20 18:03 ok 2012-04-20 18:04 but you do not use your own MTA 2012-04-20 18:04 I use it, and it relies to dyndns; because dyndns owns an IP segment 2012-04-20 18:04 that's what the picky MTA receiving part checks 2012-04-20 18:04 I hire a sending service. 2012-04-20 18:05 ah ok 2012-04-20 18:05 I can afford a domain, but I can't afford an IP. 2012-04-20 18:05 I think I get it 2012-04-20 18:05 you forward to the dyndns MTA 2012-04-20 18:05 yes 2012-04-20 18:05 personally I want everything to run on box I trust to bypass my ISP MTA 2012-04-20 18:06 (for privacy reasons) 2012-04-20 18:06 GNUtoo-desktop: using your ISP MTA or not using it is irrelevant to privacy :) 2012-04-20 18:06 because it's not encrypted right? 2012-04-20 18:06 yes 2012-04-20 18:07 so all ISP monitor the content of SMTP transfers? 2012-04-20 18:07 they could 2012-04-20 18:08 having smtp transfers from your IP may be more suspicious than using the ISP mta ;) 2012-04-20 18:09 anyway I've a good associative mail but I prefer having my own mail because my associative mail is limited to 20M and they remove your account if you have more than 100M 2012-04-20 18:30 The build was successful: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-nanonote/openwrt-xburst.full_system-20120419-1238 2012-04-20 18:34 mirko: this build includes qt-4.8.1, you might want to try this if you don't want to build your own --^ 2012-04-20 18:57 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 19:41 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 20:40 Ayla_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 20:50 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 21:13 xwalk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 21:31 viric: about Pandora: they are producing at a steady pace now, but not many units per week 2012-04-20 21:33 also, their costs have risen above the pre-order amount and now they're putting people who pay extra in front of the queue to get more funds 2012-04-20 21:33 have you received yours? :) 2012-04-20 21:33 nope 2012-04-20 21:33 I decided not to pay extra, at least for now, until it is clear they can actually deliver to those people who do 2012-04-20 21:34 not sure what I'll do if they can, maybe I'll pay extra or maybe I'll just wait 2012-04-20 21:56 is the pandora keyboard usable for high speed typing? 2012-04-20 21:57 I mean apart the size, are the keys ok? 2012-04-20 21:57 also I'm not sure of the software status 2012-04-20 21:57 such as kernel 2012-04-20 21:57 I don't remember 2012-04-20 21:57 I think they have a pretty recent kernel 2012-04-20 21:58 but they use the old one because some stuff like oss driver(used for speed) are not there 2012-04-20 22:00 they use a binary blob for GL ES, the rest of the kernel is free afaik, but I haven't checked thoroughly 2012-04-20 22:01 the keyboard has rubber keys afaik, it should be better than most small keyboards, but I don't know how fast you can type on it 2012-04-20 22:02 they have regular distro updates, so I think the software side is actually pretty mature 2012-04-20 22:02 they got the distro builders early units, so they've been working on it for a couple of years already now 2012-04-20 22:07 but I don't have one myself yet, so all this is from reading news and forums, not actual first hand experience 2012-04-20 22:10 mth, if I ever buy one I won't run the binary blob 2012-04-20 22:11 I would use meta-pandora without the non-free 3d with oe-core and port some games 2012-04-20 22:11 but honestly I've already too much stuff to do 2012-04-20 22:11 so I won't buy one I think 2012-04-20 23:00 losinggeneration has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 23:00 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 23:00 DocScrutinizer51 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-04-20 23:33 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware