2012-03-26 00:00 Ayla: besides, unless you're really using 5.25" floppies and such, that choice isn't available anyway 2012-03-26 00:00 sigh 2012-03-26 00:00 just grab one of 1000s FAT access sample codes and declare it a day 2012-03-26 00:01 the standard sizes only works for floppies indeed, SD is a fake harddisk, which uses a single media ID code regardless of geometry 2012-03-26 00:01 Ayla: you'd still need to read the boot sector to determine the FAT entry size. and maybe also the beginning of the data. not entirely sure about the latter 2012-03-26 00:02 afaik you get FAT location and root dir location from the boot sector and data location from the FAT 2012-03-26 00:02 mth: pioneers of mobile computing :-) 2012-03-26 00:02 wpwrak: but why should I care about the entry size? 2012-03-26 00:02 I don't get it 2012-03-26 00:02 Ayla: the FAT entries can be 12, 16, or 32 bits 2012-03-26 00:02 ah 2012-03-26 00:02 Ayla: so unless your file is just one cluster short, you need to know the FAT entry size 2012-03-26 00:03 I do check it 2012-03-26 00:03 I simply exit the loading function when it's not FAT32 2012-03-26 00:03 mth: i meant the position of the data sector corresponding to FAT entry 0 (cluster 0). i think it's at a non-zero offset. 2012-03-26 00:05 hmm, my knowledge is a bit rusty I'm afraid 2012-03-26 00:06 here's (part of) my code: http://pastebin.com/ZEJYJ74B 2012-03-26 00:06 I used to do all kinds of nasty editing in the file system, like making a subdirectory point to its parent and watch PC-Tools crash when reading the disk 2012-03-26 00:07 sbi->data_start = sbi->dir_start + rootdir_sectors; 2012-03-26 00:07 and 2012-03-26 00:07 sbi->dir_start = sbi->fat_start + sbi->fats * sbi->fat_length; 2012-03-26 00:08 linux kernel, fs/fat/inode.c:fat_fill_super 2012-03-26 00:08 Ayla: you might need some attribute to tell the compiler not to pad the struct 2012-03-26 00:08 still there after all these years :) 2012-03-26 00:08 mth, I did check that, only the last one is padded 2012-03-26 00:08 mth: haha, on early linux you could create that with standard tools 2012-03-26 00:08 the "fsdata" structure 2012-03-26 00:09 but it's like that on the original code too, so I'm not sure if I should alter that 2012-03-26 00:09 Ayla: note that some programs, e.g. mkfs.vfat, sometimes create FAT16 and FAT12 volumes depending on the size of media 2012-03-26 00:09 the structures are from u-boot btw 2012-03-26 00:09 e.g. if you will point mkfs.vfat to something 1.44MB in size, then chances it'll format it as FAT12 2012-03-26 00:09 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 00:09 there's an option for forcing the type 2012-03-26 00:10 whitequark: I'm not planning to put a floppy on my dingoo ;) 2012-03-26 00:10 also there's an option to deal with inode size which changed from 128 to 256 eventually in mkfs and uBoot barfed up on that 2012-03-26 00:11 Ayla: there's the problem 2012-03-26 00:11 if you will format a 2MB NAND partition with mkfs.vfat, it can _too_ format it as FAT12 2012-03-26 00:11 so look out for that 2012-03-26 00:11 heh, come on 2012-03-26 00:11 (through using FAT on NAND partitions is an exceptionally bad idea anyway) 2012-03-26 00:11 I'm writing code to boot from SD only 2012-03-26 00:12 ok, on a 2MB SD partition ;) 2012-03-26 00:12 or it can be 10MB and FAT16 2012-03-26 00:12 still a potential for a failure 2012-03-26 00:12 oops, of course the inode size wasn't for FAT 2012-03-26 00:12 whitequark: the main root file system won't even fit on that 2012-03-26 00:12 :-D 2012-03-26 00:12 up to 32MB can still be FAT12 2012-03-26 00:13 FAT16 goes quite a bit further and could actually exists on SD 2012-03-26 00:13 I don't want to support something we're sure we'll never see 2012-03-26 00:13 the code is not meant to go inside an OS, but is specific to the dingoo 2012-03-26 00:13 mth: I don't remember exact details of FAT implementations. but I've been bitten by that quirk and so I'm saying 2012-03-26 00:14 dang, I never tested if FR uboot actually would boot from an ext2/3 with 128bit inode size 2012-03-26 00:14 I just seem to remember it been supposed to bot from ext in early days of gta01 2012-03-26 00:14 in any case, let's first get it booting from FAT32 and later add FAT12/16 support if we might need it 2012-03-26 00:15 mth: Ayla: dump everything except FAT32. make a note in README. 2012-03-26 00:15 fat16 support isn't worth the time required for it 2012-03-26 00:15 yup 2012-03-26 00:15 support for users not caring to read README isn't, too 2012-03-26 00:18 esp if those users dare to repartition a SD that by default comes with VFAT 2012-03-26 00:20 Ayla: if you put filename and ext in one array, you can compare it to "VMLINUZ\0BIN" in one go 2012-03-26 00:21 mth: probably, I'm not there yet 2012-03-26 00:22 Ayla: seriously, why not take an existing FAT access code? 2012-03-26 00:22 it has been written way more times than it should be 2012-03-26 00:23 whitequark: I do have an existing FAT access code 2012-03-26 00:23 so what's wrong with it? 2012-03-26 00:23 I'm almost copying the u-boot code 2012-03-26 00:23 but there's so much stuff in there I don't need 2012-03-26 00:24 and I like to understand what I program 2012-03-26 00:25 yet another wheel reinvented out of pure curiosity 2012-03-26 00:25 * whitequark has a collection of those 2012-03-26 00:26 that's called evolution 2012-03-26 00:26 wheels used to be in wood 2012-03-26 00:27 it has still the same function; but now each wheel is made accordingly to the system it composes 2012-03-26 00:27 a wheel from a bike is not the one from a car 2012-03-26 00:27 I'll just go and look at rabbits. Funny little rabbits with black twitching noses. 2012-03-26 00:39 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 00:46 zumbi has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 01:32 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 01:47 kyak: are you trying to compile in directfb support? 2012-03-26 01:47 building qt4 frequently and don't experience this issue 2012-03-26 01:52 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 01:53 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 01:55 mirko: hey nice to see you! 2012-03-26 01:56 and thanks a lot for continued care about those things, I am still super happy about OpenWrt in general :-) 2012-03-26 01:57 if we can do things better for smoother integration, never hesitate to post it so we can learn 2012-03-26 01:57 will do, but have to figure out the actual problem before :) 2012-03-26 01:58 wolfspraul: currently in greece, attending the wireless battle mesh meeting 2012-03-26 01:58 sure that was not in reference to this particular issue, just in general 2012-03-26 01:58 greece, nice 2012-03-26 01:58 wireles battle mesh? wow 2012-03-26 01:59 I recently bought some of these little thingies, and of course OpenWrt on them - really good! http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-wr703n 2012-03-26 01:59 hehe, yeah bought some as well 2012-03-26 01:59 16 USD, 0.5W. finally a worthy successor of my aging nslu2 2012-03-26 01:59 very neat devices 2012-03-26 01:59 they're not available in europe yet 2012-03-26 01:59 and openwrt really shines on them 2012-03-26 01:59 had to import them from HK 2012-03-26 01:59 well. the reason is that EU+US markets are 'too small' :-) 2012-03-26 02:00 I just lump them both together 2012-03-26 02:00 and not price sensitive enough, that is a product that is so cheap is not pulled forcefully enouhg because none of the distributors are interested to work for such tiny margins 2012-03-26 02:00 but they take off in the world's largest computer markets, starting with China, and then other huge and growing markets 2012-03-26 02:01 they are everywhere here in China, at every corner shop 2012-03-26 02:01 wolfspraul: there is also a different model - having a grey case instead of blue 2012-03-26 02:01 including low-cost variants (yes), like the 702n and even more lost-cost 'no-name' versions 2012-03-26 02:01 and kind of a display 2012-03-26 02:01 low-cost meaning another 1 USD less... 2012-03-26 02:02 the 702 has 2MB flash 2012-03-26 02:02 there are many variants 2012-03-26 02:02 it's hard to imagine that there is another 'no-name low-cost' white label essentially 2012-03-26 02:02 for a product that already retails at 16 USD 2012-03-26 02:02 but there is :-) 2012-03-26 02:02 :) 2012-03-26 02:02 you can only understand this from the perspective of a huge market like china with 1.3 billion people, which is also extremely price sensitive 2012-03-26 02:02 just for the record: http://battlemesh.org/BattleMeshV5 2012-03-26 02:03 they will get to EU/US later, if anyone there cares... 2012-03-26 02:03 (it's the distributors that don't care, not the consumers, since it doesn't even reach them) 2012-03-26 02:04 battle mesh, yes, reading 2012-03-26 02:04 very interested in anything rf, mesh, p2p 2012-03-26 02:04 sdr 2012-03-26 02:05 702, not be supported in OpenWRT !! oh 2012-03-26 02:05 yeah come on, stay away from those 'cost-down' versions 2012-03-26 02:05 like removing the USB connector to save, what, 10 cents? 2012-03-26 02:05 and then not having USB host because of that... 2012-03-26 02:06 kristianpaul: 2MB flash - you can strip openwrt down to fit in 2MB but it's just not worth it and fun 2012-03-26 02:06 mirko: and poor usefullness later.. 2012-03-26 02:07 mirko: so you are a 'mesh networking enthusiast and community networking activist'? cool! :-) 2012-03-26 02:09 battle rf could be fun ;) 2012-03-26 02:10 wolfspraul: well, it's all OpenWrt related as well 2012-03-26 02:10 since most nodes are running OpenWrt 2012-03-26 02:11 removing the USB connector, remenbers me some of nanonote history about usb host :) 2012-03-26 02:11 mirko: I think OpenWrt is doing just fine 2012-03-26 02:11 yeah, got most OpenWrt-devs to attend the event as well 2012-03-26 02:11 so I am serious when I worry about 'how can we integrate with upstream (owrt) better', 'how can we keep long-term maintenance costs down', etc. 2012-03-26 02:12 the future is bright :-) 2012-03-26 02:12 yesterday we had quite a long and productive meeting dedicated to openwrt 2012-03-26 02:12 mirko: havent seems rtl-sdr? 2012-03-26 02:12 see* 2012-03-26 02:12 ah hey, we need really good milkymist soc support in openwrt one day :-) 2012-03-26 02:12 but some homework to do on our end first, ahem. say a year or so :-) 2012-03-26 02:13 wolfspraul: well, i'm willing to assist but working full-time currently - bdesides my very own projects :) 2012-03-26 02:13 hehe 2012-03-26 02:13 sure sure 2012-03-26 02:13 first priority is to keep ben nanonote image from falling apart 2012-03-26 02:13 on the milkymist side a lot of groundwork is missing and slowly being created 2012-03-26 02:14 mirko: from router manufacturers, which do you think are the most openwrt-friendly, or the best supported by openwrt? 2012-03-26 02:15 rejon has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 02:16 why do you need to bring ethernet cables, switches and hubs to a meeting that is all about wireless & mesh? :-) 2012-03-26 02:17 http://battlemesh.org/BattleMeshV5#What_to_bring 2012-03-26 02:28 in first instance it's drinking, partying, having no sleep and talking and hacking ;) 2012-03-26 02:33 wolfspraul: it's hard to tell which manufacturer is best currently.. - there's one great netgear router which however costs about 90 euros 2012-03-26 02:33 suprisingly tp-link routers are usually getting supported quite fast as well 2012-03-26 02:33 yes, I didn't mean more or less 'random' products that were found to be 'good' in a reverse way 2012-03-26 02:33 they even advertise currently with openwrt compatibility 2012-03-26 02:33 but I mean whether there are any manufacturers that have an active/proactive role wrt openwrt 2012-03-26 02:34 ah yes, that's interesting! [ads] 2012-03-26 02:34 their role in getting patches upstream is non-existent still 2012-03-26 02:34 are the firmware on those routers built with openwrt? 2012-03-26 02:34 depends on the models 2012-03-26 02:35 is there a manufacturer that realizes there is this thing openwrt and they should have a strategy to align their business with what is happening in openwrt? 2012-03-26 02:35 or not? 2012-03-26 02:35 but the number of manufacturers using a firmware by default based on openwrt is inrceasing 2012-03-26 02:35 wolfspraul: not that we know of currently 2012-03-26 02:35 yeah I would think so 2012-03-26 02:35 in my opinion thinks like the little 16 USD router is what is leading/most innovative economically 2012-03-26 02:35 wolfspraul: usually they just do it without notifying us - and usually their env is heaviliy patched and not based on some recent version of openwrt 2012-03-26 02:36 and those economics are tough 2012-03-26 02:36 at those pricepoints even the smallest engineering effort becomes a large percentage of their margin 2012-03-26 02:36 which should make them more interested in a smooth strategy that includes upstream 2012-03-26 02:36 mirko: are there any at all who commit their stuff upstream? 2012-03-26 02:37 but I hear you. thanks! just double-checking... 2012-03-26 02:37 all the same old story then :-) 2012-03-26 02:37 first we wait until the router costs 2 USD, then we see what we do :-) 2012-03-26 02:37 pabs3: not really - not as in: they provide useful patches ;) 2012-03-26 02:37 wolfspraul: got it - thanks :) 2012-03-26 02:37 they cannot afford the staff that would be able to do this 2012-03-26 02:38 'cannot' not as in cash liquidity, but as in being compatible with their business model 2012-03-26 02:39 maybe some will slowly become just like a regular openwrt user. look up their hardware in the 'toh', then flash the image recommended there :-) 2012-03-26 02:39 that would create an interesting chicken & egg problem :-) 2012-03-26 02:40 mirko: ah, one last thing. do you have any thoughts on qualcomm acquiring atheros? 2012-03-26 02:41 wolfspraul: i'm not that much into this wifi thing.. can't tell 2012-03-26 02:41 I'm asking because it seems there are 2 major makers of the SoCs inside a lot of routers: broadcom and atheros 2012-03-26 02:42 and atheros was acquired by qualcomm over a year ago, so I would think that tech is being integrated into future SoCs 2012-03-26 02:42 but I know too little there, just watching over time and trying to figure out where the interesting new things are happening 2012-03-26 02:43 look at a product like the tp-link TL-MR11U, a battery powered version of the 703n 2012-03-26 02:43 if it has gsm/lte built in? could be used for all sorts of things 2012-03-26 02:50 i know that atheros is restructering in way which goes away from the opensource efforts 2012-03-26 02:50 people are trying to hard to avoid this and try to convince them not giving up this path 2012-03-26 02:52 qualcomm has money to finance proprietary innovation, in fact the profitability of such investments in the past has made them what they are today 2012-03-26 02:53 I think you will have a hard time convincing them about anything open. they will only open the parts that have lost profitability for them. 2012-03-26 02:53 that's the theory 2012-03-26 02:53 but in reality the open routers we have today are cool, no? I only think about the value of the open part... 2012-03-26 02:55 lantiq is great 2012-03-26 02:56 they not producing routers but soc's and eval-boards 2012-03-26 02:56 they are really openwrt-friendly 2012-03-26 02:56 ah interesting. thanks! I will definitely check that out. 2012-03-26 02:56 and finance people writing opensource drivers for them 2012-03-26 02:56 that's what I meant :-) 2012-03-26 02:57 they're one of the few provising an abstracted API for voip/dsl support 2012-03-26 02:57 usually we just get *.ko-files 2012-03-26 02:57 I will read about them some more, very helpful thanks a lot! 2012-03-26 02:57 they encapsulated it into a firmware blob but the API from the kernel and userspace is kept the sam 2012-03-26 02:57 *same 2012-03-26 02:57 I'm trying to understand the companies and their business models, not just looking at products one by one. 2012-03-26 02:57 welcome 2012-03-26 02:58 need to get some sleep now :) 2012-03-26 02:58 see ya 2012-03-26 05:28 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 05:38 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 06:00 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 06:07 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 06:31 jluis has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 06:37 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 08:43 wolfspraul, please add me as happy member under http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/ Thanks a lot ! 2012-03-26 08:46 cladamw: added 2012-03-26 08:46 excellent let's take that on! 2012-03-26 08:47 nice ! 2012-03-26 09:06 antoniodariush has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 09:12 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 09:27 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 09:30 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 09:49 [commit] Xiangfu: cgminer: increase the MAX_DEVICE to 64 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/b96e10c 2012-03-26 09:49 [commit] Xiangfu: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/617627f 2012-03-26 09:49 [commit] Xiangfu: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9a15361 2012-03-26 10:04 [commit] Adam Wang: Added WM9707SCFT/V symbol (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b4543b9 2012-03-26 10:25 jluis_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 10:30 wpwrak, nice today I treated myself ! :-) 2012-03-26 10:30 very good ! :) 2012-03-26 10:30 wpwrak, http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/source/commit/b4543b9/ 2012-03-26 10:30 yes, ours version are different surely. One question: 2012-03-26 10:31 i'm looking at it right now ... 2012-03-26 10:32 perhaps it's time to switch to using git add the_file(s)_you_really_want_to_commit 2012-03-26 10:32 and only then git commit 2012-03-26 10:32 wpwrak, http://dpaste.com/721470/ 2012-03-26 10:33 that way, you can leave out all the "noise" kicad produces. e.g., your commit also changed things you didn't modify, for example because of the (stupid) timestamps 2012-03-26 10:33 (dpaste) yes, that far it was good. what went wrong after ? 2012-03-26 10:34 my question is why components.pro still has been committed ? 2012-03-26 10:34 it seems that I didn't use git add components.pro though 2012-03-26 10:36 it's the commit -a 2012-03-26 10:36 since you already did git add ... 2012-03-26 10:36 you would have needed only git commit 2012-03-26 10:37 git commit -a commits everything that has been added plus everything that already existed and that has changed 2012-03-26 10:37 so next time I don't need use '-a' just use git commit 2012-03-26 10:37 that's why you also commited "changes" to c8051f320.* 2012-03-26 10:37 is that right ? 2012-03-26 10:37 yes 2012-03-26 10:37 yeah...phew~ 2012-03-26 10:38 sorry that. that's why i felt wrong that why c8051f320.* still be modified. :( 2012-03-26 10:38 btw, there is a useful script in wernermisc/bin/purge 2012-03-26 10:38 it removes timestamp changes from .pro files :) 2012-03-26 10:38 phew~ so next time: I have to just use git add and git commit, right ? 2012-03-26 10:39 that is, if only the timestamp has changed, then it removes it. if anything else has changed, it leaves the change(s) there 2012-03-26 10:39 wow~ so could you change c8051f320.* back to previous ones ? 2012-03-26 10:40 after the commit, you should check if there are no other changes you want to commit. (git status or, better, git diff and git diff --cached) 2012-03-26 10:40 if there's nothing else, you can throw away unwanted changes with git stash 2012-03-26 10:41 "git stash" means that the changes are still around, so if you made a mistake, you can still recover them. but they're out of your way. 2012-03-26 10:42 phew~ those are may hard a bit for me to understand now. 2012-03-26 10:42 git is all about the workflow ;-) 2012-03-26 10:44 btw, when you use components.pro to add/modify symbols, will you always commit it ? or no need, since i think the components.pro is just for local laptop purpose. right ? 2012-03-26 10:45 i'll not commit it even I create new symbols. is it make sense to you ? 2012-03-26 10:45 i commit it, because that way, anyone can access the new component with eeschema 2012-03-26 10:45 otherwise, they'd have to add it manually 2012-03-26 10:45 (access it) from kicad-libs/components/ 2012-03-26 10:45 hmm...okay. i see now. 2012-03-26 10:45 you can make sch there 2012-03-26 10:46 and then invoke the component viewer 2012-03-26 10:47 aha...nice that make sch there. 2012-03-26 10:49 [commit] Werner Almesberger: a bit of meta-data cleanup after the wm9707scft commit (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/6faf611 2012-03-26 10:49 wpwrak, well... so i'll keep to add symbols for m1r4 these days once i'm available... phew~ soon, we'll have KiCad m1r4 sch. ;-) 2012-03-26 10:49 you forgot to add yourself as author :) 2012-03-26 10:50 pin 46 is an input ? 2012-03-26 10:51 pin 12, too ? 2012-03-26 10:51 DocScrutinizer has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 10:52 wpwrak, how can i edit "./wm9707scft" in the "Preference >> Library" ? 2012-03-26 10:52 (don't forget to git pull after my commit, before making any new changes. else, you'll have a merge conflict, e.g., on *.pro) 2012-03-26 10:53 (edit) you mean you want to rename it ? 2012-03-26 10:53 since I found that i tried to add "./" for it. yeah. 2012-03-26 10:53 but don't know how to use it 2012-03-26 10:54 i added the ./ 2012-03-26 10:54 so you edited the file directly not by EESchema ? 2012-03-26 10:54 i just edited the .pro file with a text editor :) 2012-03-26 10:54 oah.... got it. man 2012-03-26 10:54 yes, of course. it's much quicker that way ;-) 2012-03-26 10:55 also, kicad may try to change ./ back to nothing 2012-03-26 10:55 alright, i still have a lot of "git" to learn 2012-03-26 10:55 yeah...pin 46 is NC, no need an input, 2012-03-26 10:55 btw, do you know this one ? http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-expanded-all.pdf 2012-03-26 10:55 that's still from gta02-core. an view of components with their pin types 2012-03-26 10:56 i guess it'll be useful to add something like this to kicad-libs now, too 2012-03-26 10:57 yeah...so you want me to add symbols as gta02 as possible for m1r4 ? 2012-03-26 10:58 not yet. let me set up the framework for it first ... 2012-03-26 10:58 hmm...yeah 2012-03-26 11:01 i think we need to set catagory for components, like different lib for like varistor, connector, etc. ? or after your framework. ;-) 2012-03-26 11:04 yes. just populating Logic - Single :) 2012-03-26 11:04 let's try two levels of category, and then 1, 2, 3... for now 2012-03-26 11:04 GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 11:10 wpwrak, how to use git stash after my http://dpaste.com/721489/ 2012-03-26 11:10 are there any changes you want to keep ? (git diff / git diff --cached ?) 2012-03-26 11:11 wpwrak, i don't want to commit *.pro. so just git checkout -- *.pro ? 2012-03-26 11:12 not sure if this works. try it :) 2012-03-26 11:15 urandom__ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 11:15 nice, just git pull origin master and pulled your new commit. thanks ! phew~ fires on git for me. 2012-03-26 11:48 hmm, this calls for a new script ... 2012-03-26 11:52 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 11:58 and adam will need scriptable kicad soon :) wolfspraul, the procrastination will be short-lived :) 2012-03-26 12:05 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 12:20 cladamw_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 12:32 wpwrak: oh I'm glad if we can step up, me included 2012-03-26 12:32 which procrastination? 2012-03-26 12:32 did you see the recent kicad-scripting patch on the kicad list? 2012-03-26 12:33 everybody seems to like that, and it will force the same way of code cleanup that will help cmdline processing 2012-03-26 12:40 I was thinking more specifically about kicad layout today 2012-03-26 12:41 so kicad has no autorouter, or semi-auto router 2012-03-26 12:41 but how bad is the manual one? 2012-03-26 12:41 how efficient or inefficient? 2012-03-26 12:41 mirko: yes, i'm building qt4 for directfb support (as by default for nanonote) 2012-03-26 12:41 can you annotate layout or save layout rules together with the traces? 2012-03-26 12:42 how reusable is a kicad layout if someone wants to make an improved or different board? 2012-03-26 12:43 I was looking at a new Intel board I got (DN2800MT) and I was admiring the traces I saw even on top & bottom. could be a lot of layers too. pretty much all traces seemed to be following a number of rules, lots of pairs, lots of length-matching or other irregular shapes like serpentines, weird angles, etc. 2012-03-26 12:44 so I was wondering how good the 'auto-router' even in the best EDA tools might be 2012-03-26 12:44 maybe in the end you will always need to do a lot of manual intervention on anything high-performance? 2012-03-26 12:44 that Intel board certainly looked like that... 2012-03-26 12:44 the autorouters of today are decent, but it's not trivial to set them up to do what you want to achieve 2012-03-26 12:44 mirko: it's a pity it's working fine for you :) so i guess i'll just wait till it hits buildhost (i guess it already did - all qt4 packages magically failed to build in the last "release"). For now buildhost is stuck building some xfce stuff, which needs to be disabled at all (xiangfu?) 2012-03-26 12:45 jonand: do you know anything about how good/bad/usable/reusable kicad layout is? 2012-03-26 12:47 I don't, I heard about kicad only a few weeks ago when I listened to theamphour podcast in my car. I use Cadence tools at work and I've done a few hobby projects in Eagle a few years ago, but I've never tried Kicad. 2012-03-26 12:48 kicad and geda seem to be the two most advanced free schematics and layout suites (geda is a collection that includes some other tools as well I believe) 2012-03-26 12:48 what is "theamphour podcast"? checking... 2012-03-26 12:49 mirko: another thing: qt4 lacks librt as a dependency. How to reproduce: build a minimal image with qt4 only and some app. When launching the app, it complains for missing librt.so. 2012-03-26 12:49 (scripting patch) lemme check ... 2012-03-26 12:52 I'm not a layout professional, but the rumors are that the Mentor tools are a step up from Cadence. Here is an article on driving the autorouter on a 400 diff pair 16 layer board. http://www.techdesignforums.com/pcb/pcb-topics/constraint-driven-design/learning-the-value-of-preparation-and-simulation-by-osmosis/ 2012-03-26 12:53 mirko: and the lastest thing: dejavu-fonts-ttf package been split into many packages (i think you did that). However, choosing the "dejavu-fonts-ttf" in menuconfig (or automatically via dependencies) doesn't select subpackages. Therefore, the package "dejavu-fonts-ttf" itself is an empty package and now i don't know how to make an application build with basic font support (unless i choose to depend on a specific font from dejavu-fonts-ttf-*) 2012-03-26 12:53 (sorry guys for interrupting... ) 2012-03-26 12:53 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 12:53 jonand: excellent link, thanks a lot. I will *definitely* read this. 2012-03-26 12:54 one thing I noticed over the years that as much as people talk about how much they prefer this or that tool, or this or that feature in a tools, or how much superior this or that tool or company is, in reality that mostly speaks for the experience of the speaker more than for the tool 2012-03-26 12:55 in other words - the tools can pretty much all 'achieve' the same results, but over often many years, users of tools get totally intertwined with one particular tool or approach, and then find many reasons to explain why that is so 2012-03-26 12:55 (scripting) sounds promising. let's hope it's not overly tied to having a window. 2012-03-26 12:56 I wouldn't look at anything past kicad or geda these days. 2012-03-26 12:57 (for those 2 pieces - schematic capture and layout) 2012-03-26 12:59 (router) the manual routing is pretty decent. when drawing a trace, it helps you find where to go: DRC will only make points on the same net accessible, "magnetic" pads will draw the trace to the center of the pad, "magnetic traces" will give you drop points off-grid at intersections, and traces can "hug" each other (caution: using this feature, you may have to rip up a number of traces if you want to change anything, since they'll be 2012-03-26 12:59 tightly packed) 2012-03-26 13:00 if werner had to layout such a board, he would write a small parametric tool just for that board :-) 2012-03-26 13:00 (talking about jonand's link, excellent read imho) 2012-03-26 13:00 the parts that are not so good are: traces can't push other traces out of the way (that would be semi-atomatic routing or a "push router"). also, undoing and redoing things needs a lot of clicks 2012-03-26 13:01 and again if you look at 'lessons learned', they didn't use HDI because nobody had experience and they felt they didn't have the time to learn about that 2012-03-26 13:01 and had they known their tool better (I/O Designer), they would have used it differently from the beginning :-) 2012-03-26 13:01 (board example) it does look quite parametric, doesn't it ? ;-)) 2012-03-26 13:02 yes, absolutely 2012-03-26 13:02 I think that would be the right approach to layout such a board 2012-03-26 13:02 actually that's what they are doing, just with tools they don't really know that much about (but learn as they try to throw the first problem at the tool) 2012-03-26 13:03 when I started to work as an electronics designer I soon found out that designing anything that is more advanced than microcontrollers with everything built in requires some knowledge in how boards are built up and why. 2012-03-26 13:03 (kicad routing) what's important is that i never ran into a situation where i felt kicad was abandoning me. you can always solve the problems, even if it's sometimes a bit circuitous 2012-03-26 13:03 jonand: absolutely 2012-03-26 13:03 there are some excellent books on the subject, like Howard Johnson "high speed design - a handbook of black magic", written in the 90s 2012-03-26 13:03 wpwrak: kicad would probably be terribly bad fit for a board like in jonand's text 2012-03-26 13:03 still very valid today - physics don't change... :) 2012-03-26 13:04 yeah. everything manual 2012-03-26 13:04 but then I believe for such a board you might really be best off to write a small meta-tool on top of a simpler base like kicad 2012-03-26 13:04 i mean, it does have autoroute and autoplace. but both are rather cruel jokes 2012-03-26 13:04 that said, I'd really advice anyone designing anything with say an FPGA plus external DDR or a CPU with memory to do some IBIS simulations 2012-03-26 13:05 last time i checked, you couldn't even stop the autoplace. it tightly packs the components right next to each other, without regard for routing, and at glacially slow speed. 2012-03-26 13:05 running SI simulations really make you understand a lot more about how layer buildup, (lack of) ground return paths, and vias will destroy your signals 2012-03-26 13:06 do you have recommendations which free software to use for IBIS simulations? 2012-03-26 13:06 I doubt there are any 2012-03-26 13:06 hmm, we don't have such things for kicad yet 2012-03-26 13:07 something that may be useful to add at some point in time would be a trace length comparison: tell pcbnew which traces should be length-matched, then let it show differences, if any are encountered. 2012-03-26 13:07 ok, one by one. First, you probably meant this book http://www.amazon.com/High-Speed-Digital-Design-Handbook/dp/0133957241/ 2012-03-26 13:07 the most popular commercial ones are mentor hyperlynx and cadence sigxplorer 2012-03-26 13:07 this would still be a manual aid, but i think it could help a lot 2012-03-26 13:08 we tend to blissfully ignore legacy software :-) 2012-03-26 13:08 that's the book, yes 2012-03-26 13:08 (I am joking, no worries, but it's just so much more fun if you can take the tools apart and it's all free and open... don't understand why any serious engineer can accept to work with blackbox tools, oh well :-)) 2012-03-26 13:08 (i firmly believe in automating the things that computers are good at while leaving the things that humans are good at to humans. so, in this example, let kicad do the boring trace length calculation, and let the human figure out what to do with that information) 2012-03-26 13:09 jonand: ok, thanks a lot for that link then, it may come in handy later 2012-03-26 13:09 now IBIS, let me see whether there is anything in FEL, just as a quick search 2012-03-26 13:10 http://www.eda.org/ibis/home/faq/#_1 <-- The parser is freely available in object code format <-- Stallman would explode if he read that line.. :) 2012-03-26 13:11 jonand: he must already have grown a meter of steel skin at that spot :) 2012-03-26 13:11 wait wait, let's see. and btw, the Milkymist One board has a spartan-6 fpga and ddr1 memory, and it's working nice and stable 2012-03-26 13:11 I'm not dismissing ibis, not at all, just happy that we got it this far already. 2012-03-26 13:12 woakas has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-26 13:12 oh well, no mention of IBIS at all in http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/list.html 2012-03-26 13:13 so another thing to look at later :-) 2012-03-26 13:13 (kicad routing) you can save certain design rules: you can categorize nets and assign a track width, clearance, and via parameters to them. all a but crude, though. 2012-03-26 13:15 how is milkymist related to qi-hardware? 2012-03-26 13:15 thanks for asking 2012-03-26 13:15 Milkymist SoC first is an SoC project 2012-03-26 13:15 (cure) e.g., if you have a high-current trace and the trace for a level probe going to it, then both would be the same net and you therefor would have the same trace width for the probe. that is, without switching off DRC or inventing a magic component that splits the trace 2012-03-26 13:15 s/cure/crude 2012-03-26 13:15 wpwrak meant: "(crude) e.g., if you have a high-current trace and the trace for a level probe going to it, then both would be the same net and you therefor would have the same trace width for the probe. that is, without switching off DRC or inventing a magic component that splits the trace" 2012-03-26 13:15 uses the open LM32 core from lattice (about 25% of the codebase), and then a lot of gpl-licensed peripherals around that 2012-03-26 13:16 then there's a lot of stuff on top of the SoC to actually make it work in a practical environment 2012-03-26 13:16 namely a BIOS, rtems kernel, flickernoise app 2012-03-26 13:16 all of this then comes out as the Milkymist One video synthesizer 2012-03-26 13:16 I met sebastien at HAR2009 where he presented the milkymist, but I'm not up-to-date with what happened with the platform since then. 2012-03-26 13:16 a hardware product you can buy for 500 USD 2012-03-26 13:17 oh nice 2012-03-26 13:17 just checkout milkymist.org or https://sharism.cc/milkymist for the product 2012-03-26 13:18 I wish we can build more focus still, make the SoC stronger, get a really good Linux kernel to run on it, improve the toolchain, improve the Flickernoise app, improve the hardware, improve a lot of things 2012-03-26 13:19 and... it's one thing to get a digital design to work, it's another to get through regulative testing (especially radio interference testing) and to have margins for variations in board impedance, operating temperature, component tolerances and so on. 2012-03-26 13:19 sure 2012-03-26 13:19 but it's also nothing to be afraid of 2012-03-26 13:19 designing is fun, the rest is why they pay you the salary.. :) 2012-03-26 13:19 and from a lot of industry experience, I can tell you - not every company is run like Apple 2012-03-26 13:20 in other words - there is *lots* of junk out there selling in high volume, and nobody cares 2012-03-26 13:20 run like Apple? 2012-03-26 13:20 I am pretty sure the engineering & build quality of the Milkymist One is already in the top 50% of consumer electronics quality that is typically selling in eu/us 2012-03-26 13:21 well, if you are in the fire-and-forget business you can get away with a lousy design. If you have to deal with 20% returns you better have decent margins to be able to afford the bad quality products... 2012-03-26 13:22 I think it's not that easy 2012-03-26 13:22 most hardware manufacturers are under a lot of pressure, mostly cost pressure 2012-03-26 13:22 because that's what consumers care about the most, and it goes all the way through to the component makers 2012-03-26 13:23 jonand: (fire and forget) or have an efficient business card printing service, for when you make the weekly change of the company name ;-) 2012-03-26 13:23 i think you should get suspicious if a company has a day in its name :) 2012-03-26 13:24 lol 2012-03-26 13:24 nah, I'm talking about something else 2012-03-26 13:24 say you buy a computer from "HP" 2012-03-26 13:24 you think anyone at HP knows anything about this computer? 2012-03-26 13:24 in the shiny TV ads they do 2012-03-26 13:24 but only there 2012-03-26 13:25 in reality it is designed at some company A, which maybe using one or several reference designs from companies B and C 2012-03-26 13:25 and which are again outsourcing certification issues to companies D E and F 2012-03-26 13:25 "designed in america" ? :) perhaps some case parts ... 2012-03-26 13:25 then it's handed over to company G for manufacturing 2012-03-26 13:26 which is using subcontractors H I and J for parts of the volume 2012-03-26 13:26 and so on and so on 2012-03-26 13:26 and if you think that all of those really really care about operating temperaturs, board impedance variations, electromagnetic emissions, etc. oh well 2012-03-26 13:26