2012-03-25 00:30 [commit] David K 2012-03-25 01:20 kristianpaul: the ones i use the most are straight and angled tweezers 2012-03-25 01:20 both with pointy ends 2012-03-25 01:21 i use the straight to pick up components and the angled one to position them and to hold them down while soldering 2012-03-25 01:31 AwAyla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 01:52 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 03:05 nikescar has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 04:02 kristianpaul: +1 on tweezers advice 2012-03-25 04:03 and get the ones with _really_ sharp ends 2012-03-25 04:04 and preferably a good, hard steel 2012-03-25 04:04 the combination of these two factors is best for tiny smd components. 2012-03-25 04:05 I use these http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=81 and these: http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=89 2012-03-25 06:40 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 07:02 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 07:13 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 08:17 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 08:52 pabs3 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 09:20 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 09:47 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 10:50 DocScrutinizer has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 10:55 jluis_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 11:00 [commit] kyak: kbd: update upstream URL (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4b456f3 2012-03-25 12:07 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 12:07 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 12:09 wolfspraul: wpwrak: any news about mickey? 2012-03-25 12:09 [2012-03-25 14:06:43] [Whois] mickeyl ist seit 52 Tagen, 14 Stunden, 3 Minuten und 43 Sekunden untätig. 2012-03-25 12:31 B_Lizzard has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 12:42 DocScrutinizer: I don't know, but since he had a kid maybe he just left active voluntary coding for now? 2012-03-25 12:42 maybe 2012-03-25 12:42 first priority is kid, second priority make money for family, and after that pretty much the only desire is sleep :-) 2012-03-25 12:42 a bit concerning though 2012-03-25 12:42 hope he's well 2012-03-25 12:43 we should definitely assume so 2012-03-25 12:43 good :-) 2012-03-25 12:43 thanks 2012-03-25 12:44 well, I am guessing, but since he had a kid I'd say that's most likely the reason 2012-03-25 12:44 he's really gone everywhere? no more irc/chatting, no more commits, no more conferences, no more nothing? 2012-03-25 12:44 above is whois info 2012-03-25 12:44 I dunno more than that 2012-03-25 12:45 I don't know exactly what this whois monitors. 2012-03-25 12:45 he has annoying habit to use ~25 different nicks 2012-03-25 12:45 none of which except mickeyl is logged in to #openmoko-cdevel 2012-03-25 12:46 whois monitors last post 2012-03-25 12:46 (or possibly other activity as well) 2012-03-25 12:46 I'll scan the chanlog 2012-03-25 12:47 mompls 2012-03-25 12:48 shiiit we got those unbearable nlsu logs on #om-cdevel, not the nice searchable povbot/mgedmin logs 2012-03-25 12:49 so sorry but I have no clue if some mickey* logged in last 50 days, or posted something 2012-03-25 12:49 he will reappear 2012-03-25 12:49 whois doesn't take wildcards, for obvious reasons 2012-03-25 12:51 well, there's an issue with om infra, one machine seems down. do you by any chance have an idea what's the supposed status of git.openmoko.org? 2012-03-25 12:51 no 2012-03-25 12:51 BUT 2012-03-25 12:51 the big picture is known for years, and I'm sure nothing changed 2012-03-25 12:51 :nod: 2012-03-25 12:51 it's unfair to repeat the same analysis over and over again for years 2012-03-25 12:51 what is the point? 2012-03-25 12:52 analysis? 2012-03-25 12:52 we have started Qi years ago among other things for the reason that it was very hard/impossible to *continue* with Om in a culturally compatible way 2012-03-25 12:52 hmm 2012-03-25 12:52 nfc 2012-03-25 12:52 the analysis that the infrastructure is very maintenance heavy and that there is really nobody willing to take on that work 2012-03-25 12:53 GNUtoo has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 12:53 I'm just trying to help when pabs3 complains about git down 2012-03-25 12:53 afaik harald keeps paying server bills, out of good will, and roh is still sometimes trying to maintain a little 2012-03-25 12:53 yep 2012-03-25 12:53 move to other servers 2012-03-25 12:53 maybe the entire *.openmoko.org coudl be just set to read-only? :-) 2012-03-25 12:54 I'd not mind 2012-03-25 12:54 actually a sane move 2012-03-25 12:55 I follow the wiki a little and try to help (at minimum effort) where I can 2012-03-25 12:55 anyway, I pinged Roh if he can either have a look what's down or/and answer on #openmoko-cdevel / http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-March/066676.html 2012-03-25 12:55 but I'd just set the whole thing to read-only, end the misery :-) 2012-03-25 12:56 wiki seems no problem at all 2012-03-25 12:56 except for infinite stream of spam 2012-03-25 12:56 I'd just like to mirror it somewhere 2012-03-25 12:56 which amazingly some volunteers keep deleting more or less manually all the time, for years :-) 2012-03-25 12:56 let's see who wears out first - the bots or the volunteers :-) 2012-03-25 12:56 o.O 2012-03-25 12:57 the real solution would be either to upgrade the wiki software and reduce the amount of spam, or to set the whole thing read-only 2012-03-25 12:57 neither of which will happen imho 2012-03-25 12:58 I haven't noticed any spam on wiki recently, which actually makes me wonder what's going on with my notifications about changes to monitored pages 2012-03-25 12:58 no spam? wow. wait, checking 2012-03-25 12:59 the meaningful edits to wiki as well seem rare as 29th of Feb 2012-03-25 13:00 cool, yes. spam is better! :-) 2012-03-25 13:00 so either set R/O or increase barriers to edit to a rather invincible level 2012-03-25 13:00 yes, maybe someone did something. cool. 2012-03-25 13:01 anyway this FIC rant in that mail is quite annoying 2012-03-25 13:01 sure, unfair 2012-03-25 13:01 but nothing will happen, so what :-) 2012-03-25 13:02 yeah 2012-03-25 13:03 whole issue is one of the servers is down, nothing unusual 2012-03-25 13:03 I'm not sure if git/svn is even meant to be in service, but for sure munin being down is odd 2012-03-25 13:04 let's see what Roh tells us when he's back from whatever he does at Sunday noon ;-) 2012-03-25 13:37 mirko: if you have some time, please have a look here: https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/10834 (we've discussed this already some time ago). It seems that it breaks qt4 compilation and a bunch of qt4 related packages from qi-packages.. 2012-03-25 13:46 btw a general advice regarding IRC and this chan: I suggest to set +F to some real person, since otherwise you might lose foundership of this channel completely whenever bot acts up. Also a bot is no real person to hold GC of #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 13:46 disclaimer: AIUI 2012-03-25 13:48 shevek has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 13:49 e.g bot's account might get klined when bot misbehaves, and you hardly convince freenode stuff to unkline it again, just to administer this chan. 2012-03-25 13:50 also cloaks etc are hardly requested at freenode staff by a bot 2012-03-25 14:03 ergh digikry non-stock for a SMD0402 470F capacitor :-| 2012-03-25 14:11 0403 470F, I bet they don't have those on stock ;--) 2012-03-25 14:11 0402 even 2012-03-25 14:12 * DocScrutinizer idly wonders if such critter could be built, maybe for 30mV max voltage 2012-03-25 14:17 What replacement you suguest? 2012-03-25 14:18 argh 2012-03-25 14:23 -_- 2012-03-25 14:23 nv :) 2012-03-25 14:33 WHAT 2012-03-25 14:33 Shipping 1 lb. $39.00 - $46.00 !! 2012-03-25 14:33 haha, my N900 and my laptop have correct time, while two DCF77 radio controlled alarm clocks and the friggin HomeMatic CCU that is supposed to a ntp server still have winter time :-/ 2012-03-25 14:34 * kristianpaul sigh 2012-03-25 14:34 yeah, prohibitively expensive for small birdseed 2012-03-25 14:35 :'( 2012-03-25 14:35 now what.. 2012-03-25 14:35 ask fleabay 2012-03-25 14:36 it's not exactly like digi-K has a monopoly on 0402 - but almost 2012-03-25 14:41 :-| 2012-03-25 14:43 ebay have worst search eng for smd and passive stuff.. 2012-03-25 14:45 interesting most common intem is a kit 2012-03-25 14:45 item* 2012-03-25 14:53 * kristianpaul will ended buying at local ebay.. 2012-03-25 15:02 0402, indeed ! 2012-03-25 15:08 * kristianpaul found an interesting smd sample book 2012-03-25 15:08 smd 0603, as 0402 seems really rare.. 2012-03-25 15:12 or double the price.. 2012-03-25 15:40 Guest14119 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 15:42 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 15:45 jluis_ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 15:54 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 16:17 Does anyone know the memory map of uboot while it is running? Which parts are free (that is, can be used to upload code) when running in usb-boot mode? I need 2kB under 80004000 (stage1) and a lot anywhere (stage2). I'd like to use the same approach for software and hardware usbboot, but when I upload stage1 to 80002000, I think I'm overwriting something, because it doesn't work in software usbboot. 2012-03-25 16:17 zenlunatic has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 16:22 shevek: I don't know the answer, but if you're interested in a boot loader for the JZ with easier to read code, Ayla has made one: https://github.com/Ayla-/UBIBoot 2012-03-25 16:23 unlike u-boot, it doesn't try to be a mini OS, instead it just tries to get the kernel running as soon as possible 2012-03-25 16:25 mth: Thanks, but the only reason I want it to work with uboot is that that's what other people have on their Ben, and telling them to install a different boot loader isn't really an option. ;-) 2012-03-25 16:25 ah ok 2012-03-25 16:41 The stage2 isn't really a problem, because a random address is usually fine. But stage1 in hardware boot mode must be lower than 80004000 and it seems all that space is taken up by uboot. 2012-03-25 16:42 Or there's some other difference that makes it not work. Possibly it doesn't like the sdram to be reinitialized, because that obviously already happened. 2012-03-25 16:47 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 16:56 dptech has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 17:10 Hurray for source diving. Uboot thinks it a good idea to write into the code it is about the start (assuming it is its own stage1) for passing a signal ("don't initialize memory"). Why oh why do they do that this way? This is pretty much guaranteed to break any custom stage1... 2012-03-25 17:12 they like it dirty 2012-03-25 17:13 Appearantly. :-( 2012-03-25 17:13 Well, now I know it I can easily work around it. 2012-03-25 17:14 well, now we know the reason why uBoot on openmoko been named "dirty moko" 2012-03-25 17:14 ;) 2012-03-25 17:15 u-boot is all about doing things the wrong way ;-) 2012-03-25 17:15 DocScrutinizer: that "dirty", on the other hand, probably refers to the build having local changes with respect to the repository 2012-03-25 17:16 DocScrutinizer: maybe there's a patch in the build process or such 2012-03-25 17:16 And for Godwin's sake: the nazis were using u-boots, too! :-P 2012-03-25 17:17 well, they also ate bread 2012-03-25 17:17 does this mean anything to us now? 2012-03-25 17:17 [commit] kyak: qt4: change keyboard device in QWS_KEYBOARD (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/2a5afd9 2012-03-25 17:17 and there are rumors that they even practiced personal hygiene 2012-03-25 17:17 DocScrutinizer: No it's pretty much irrelevant, but that's the point of Godwin's law. ;-) 2012-03-25 17:18 goswin is unknown here 2012-03-25 17:18 prolly for a reason 2012-03-25 17:19 "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." 2012-03-25 17:20 we got enough fun with our contemporary skinhead assholes and other scum. Not that we had any more than other countries, au contraire. But we're a bit more sensitive to it 2012-03-25 17:20 Which country is that? Germany? 2012-03-25 17:21 sure 2012-03-25 17:21 so godwin's law #1 doesn't apply here 2012-03-25 17:23 Of course it does. As the discussion grows longer, there is more infomation in it. The probability of some information in there approaches 1 eventually. It may just approach it more slowly. ;-) 2012-03-25 17:25 the probability to find a 500g goldbar in your slice of bread you're eating also raches one the more slices you eat 2012-03-25 17:25 Exactly. :-) 2012-03-25 17:26 practically however it's highly unlikely to be able to cut a normal bread so a slice would contain a 500g bar of gold and you'd still try to eat it 2012-03-25 17:27 Yes, and there's the problem of it being so slow that you most likely don't live long enough to finally experience it. 2012-03-25 17:27 at least if you do, you'll realize your mistake immediately. that's a significant difference from the godwin scenario :) 2012-03-25 17:28 (if you do) bit into gold, i mean 2012-03-25 17:28 just alike it's unlikely two normal germans use Nazi analogies in a discussion, no matter how long that discussuin will take 2012-03-25 17:28 nonsense ;-) 2012-03-25 17:29 ever been to any online discussion fora ? :) 2012-03-25 17:29 wpwrak: He was talking about *normal* Germans. ;-) 2012-03-25 17:29 exactly 2012-03-25 17:29 hmm :) 2012-03-25 17:32 let's agree on the fact we here in germany are mostly thoroughly fed up with that idiot and all stuff around it, probably even more than the Jews, and it's not a very popular topic here unless some skinheads annoy your normal life and you have to beat them up. Thus Godwin isn't known here 2012-03-25 17:33 Sounds reasonable. 2012-03-25 17:42 due to mere statistical thermodynamics your water in the pot on the fire might freeze, while heating up the surrunding air to several 1000 °C 2012-03-25 17:44 Not all the water, conservation of energy doesn't allow that. But all the energy could be transferred into a single molecule, while the rest is frozen. ;-) 2012-03-25 17:44 "oh well, the explosion that blew out my windows was casued by the water on my oven freezing in the pot" ;-P 2012-03-25 18:16 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 18:31 Guest14119 has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 18:56 jurting has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 19:01 shevek has quit [#qi-hardware] 2012-03-25 19:07 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 20:58 dvdk has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 21:03 The build has FAILED: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/building/Nanonote/Ben/openwrt-xburst.minimal-20120324-1751 2012-03-25 21:10 DocScrutinizer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law 2012-03-25 21:10 oh 2012-03-25 21:10 wrong page of log. 2012-03-25 21:11 the --MORE-- in irssi isn't really noticeable. 2012-03-25 21:11 thanks anyway :-D 2012-03-25 21:13 ah. about modules 2012-03-25 21:13 well 2012-03-25 21:13 some businesses don't really advertise that they work on workdays from 09:00 to 18:too 2012-03-25 21:14 *18:00 2012-03-25 21:14 but only to 17:30 on Fridays 2012-03-25 21:14 so that was a bit surprising to me to find out that they already closed 2012-03-25 21:34 urandom__ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 21:47 kyak: hi 2012-03-25 21:48 kyak: you've been hacking on nanonote's qt4 lately? 2012-03-25 21:54 paroneayea has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 22:02 Aylax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 22:23 Junebouvier has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 22:25 whitequark: ooh. Sorry you had some action in vain with the modules. Anyway, tell me your account as soon as possible, and the amount 2012-03-25 22:25 whitequark: and thanks for making this happen at all 2012-03-25 22:36 DocScrutinizer: well, this generally happens with me all the time 2012-03-25 22:37 so I 2012-03-25 22:37 *I'm used to it :) 2012-03-25 22:39 the natural consequence of procrastination ;-) 2012-03-25 22:40 wpwrak: more of my unusual biological cycle 2012-03-25 22:40 it's best described as a sliding window across the usual 24h cycle 2012-03-25 22:41 I'm already used to calculating whether I'll be awake at the $daynumber 2012-03-25 22:41 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 22:43 ah, you sleep with a granularity of whole days. interesting. 2012-03-25 22:43 opening hours shouldn't be a major problem then, though 2012-03-25 22:44 wpwrak: maybe I haven't defined that as correct as I tried to 2012-03-25 22:44 hm 2012-03-25 22:45 like this: http://xkcd.com/320/ 2012-03-25 22:45 (but the actual intervals are somewhat different.) 2012-03-25 22:51 hope you read the small print :) 2012-03-25 22:56 Aylax has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 23:02 pfft 2012-03-25 23:02 I'm already mad 2012-03-25 23:10 i don't think it works that way :) 2012-03-25 23:17 Ayla has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-25 23:29 DocScrutinizer: thanks for pointing out the +F issue 2012-03-25 23:29 np 2012-03-25 23:29 you are by far more knowledgeable about irc than I am, so I just don't know 2012-03-25 23:30 the last drama was how 'we', the Qi community, could get some degree of control over the channel at all 2012-03-25 23:30 after a lot of this and that, I thought sort of the server/qi-bot is in control now and that means anyone we know 2012-03-25 23:30 actually atm only the bot can set +F on any other existing or new member of access list 2012-03-25 23:31 but don't ask me about details, they are probably all wrong so your help is the big light in the darkness :-) 2012-03-25 23:32 I'd guess you could sign a GC(?) paper with freenode, from your qi-hardware mail account, and that would imply you get +F on access list 2012-03-25 23:33 single-# channels are "owned" by GC, who also owns the brand or whatever is in the chan name 2012-03-25 23:33 assuming you "are" qi-hardware, you can fill out that form of freenode 2012-03-25 23:34 and gain GC status for #qi-hardware* namespace 2012-03-25 23:34 why? 2012-03-25 23:35 or you simply make the bot say /msg chanserv flags #qi-hardware wolfspraul +F 2012-03-25 23:37 I understand the theoretical need if the bot gets kicked etc, but feel a little lazy about this right now 2012-03-25 23:38 and there i was, thinking nothing could hold you back when you heard of an opportunity to enjoy some bureaucracy ;-) 2012-03-25 23:39 yeah right 2012-03-25 23:41 haha 2012-03-25 23:41 hi 2012-03-25 23:42 Is it legal for me to read a file from a FAT32 partition, by using its short name? 2012-03-25 23:43 "legal" as in "will you get sued by M$"? 2012-03-25 23:43 I know there is a patent on that 2012-03-25 23:43 the patent is on long filenames 2012-03-25 23:44 and its validity AFAIK was not proven 2012-03-25 23:44 and if you're not in US you shouldn't care at all 2012-03-25 23:44 again, AFAIK 2012-03-25 23:45 the 8+3 names are safe, yes. not sure if the VFAT patent hasn't already expired. 2012-03-25 23:46 great 2012-03-25 23:46 http://lwn.net/Articles/321475/ 2012-03-25 23:47 that's great news, I thought it was the 8.3 filenames that were patented 2012-03-25 23:47 wolfspraul: basically the GC thing should be painless 2012-03-25 23:48 but if you have some control over the bot, it's no problem 2012-03-25 23:49 the bot is already +o, and chanserv commands wouldn't even need that. It's actually just a matter of making bot say the right oneline post 2012-03-25 23:49 * Ayla goes back to the code 2012-03-25 23:49 like quoted above 2012-03-25 23:49 oh, and thanks 2012-03-25 23:50 even if 8.3 was patented once, it's so old that it would be expired by now 2012-03-25 23:50 wolfspraul: http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml 2012-03-25 23:50 8+3 comes from CP/M. and i think there, they stole it from the PDP-8 or such ;-) 2012-03-25 23:51 ok, I understand [+F] still just too lazy now to improve this 2012-03-25 23:51 MSX uses 8+3 and MSX-DOS is CP/M compatible 2012-03-25 23:51 plus it seems sort of under control right now, with the bot having the rights, that is lots of people with server access 2012-03-25 23:52 mth: ah, great 2012-03-25 23:52 I just need to identify the vmlinuz.bin file on the FAT table, and load it, and it should be all good 2012-03-25 23:53 root dir length has a fixed maximum, unlike subdirs 2012-03-25 23:53 I think somewhere in the boot sector it says how many sectors 2012-03-25 23:53 and also the start sector 2012-03-25 23:54 yes, I got all of that 2012-03-25 23:54 mth: i was more thinking of the PDP-8 or -10. 1970es, not 80es. shortly after they realized that where was need for more than just one computer on the east coast and one on the west coast ;-) 2012-03-25 23:55 I never touched a computer before about 1984 2012-03-25 23:55 I was a kid at that time though 2012-03-25 23:56 mth: by the "boot sector" you mean the MBR, or the FAT32 boostrap code? 2012-03-25 23:56 did the PDP-8 use FAT as well, or only 8+3? 2012-03-25 23:56 heh, seems that i was ahead of you a few years ;-) but that PDP stuff is also mostly legends and lore 2012-03-25 23:56 Ayla: the boot sector is sector 0 inside the FAT partition 2012-03-25 23:56 then yes, there's the info 2012-03-25 23:57 but it's not really useful, is it? 2012-03-25 23:57 i did see a few real-life PDP-11, though. some made even halfway decent office machines. space-wise, i mean. the bigger ones were a bit too noisy, unless you were deaf already 2012-03-25 23:58 (and of course too large. a full 19" rack for a tenth of the capabilities of a modern wristwatch) 2012-03-25 23:59 Ayla: it tells you how the file system is organized 2012-03-25 23:59 Ayla: you CAN also go by "standard structures", but that's rather dangerous 2012-03-25 23:59 wpwrak: about legends: at the local computer club they had a Burroughs machine that they managed to keep running while moving it, by quickly plugging it into each next socket they reached... apparently it had huge capacitors inside 2012-03-25 23:59 wpwrak: I don't care about that, I just need to load one single file :)