2012-03-12 00:05 urandom__ has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-12 00:23 "Credits (images remixed by me on an M1):" ha this very cool ! 2012-03-12 00:25 cheers to christopheradams ! 2012-03-12 00:29 * roh was reading up about the gta04 crowd... i wonder how desperate they are for a proper case 2012-03-12 00:29 i was thinking about making a more rectangular case even. we'll see where it drives me 2012-03-12 00:29 they are really paying 50euro for a shapeways printed case which looks as ugly as the original one *g* 2012-03-12 00:32 shapeways is suposed to have good quality no? i guess is a desigh problem ;) 2012-03-12 00:32 more rectangular as the nokia N9 ? :*) 2012-03-12 00:33 50 EUR doesn't seem to be terribly expensive 2012-03-12 00:34 kristianpaul: the original design is very fragile and needs thin and strong parts 2012-03-12 00:34 it has clips etc 2012-03-12 00:34 and it's good that they're getting the case under their control. that ancient "china olympics" case has long overstayed its welcome 2012-03-12 00:34 wpwrak: what's not what is happening :-) 2012-03-12 00:34 wpwrak: they currently are only adding one hole to the one they got already. 2012-03-12 00:35 at least it's consistent across the entire project :-) 2012-03-12 00:35 roh: I totally agree with your 'more rectangular' idea - why not? the #1 criteria is that it works for us and produces something that stands in real life 2012-03-12 00:36 i was more thinking if i can make something from milled acryllic, with more style and bling for the same money, while earning a few ones myself on the way 2012-03-12 00:36 also i want to have more small rockets on shit people carry around!11! 2012-03-12 00:36 not look at what Apple does and try to mimick the last curved angle, desperately 2012-03-12 00:36 roh: I totally agree 2012-03-12 00:37 wolfspraul: hrhr. no apple clone for sure. we'll see. my guess is that it will have screws in the 4 corners and some kind of stacked design from acryllic or other plastics 2012-03-12 00:37 absolutely 2012-03-12 00:37 * roh finds apple design boring 2012-03-12 00:37 we'll use it for a future milkymist-based mobile product :-) 2012-03-12 00:37 hrhr 2012-03-12 00:37 the moment you glance over to some other 'designer', you already lost 2012-03-12 00:38 either you have taste or you don't 2012-03-12 00:38 if you do, then by all means - GO FOR IT! :-) 2012-03-12 00:38 in simplicity is beauty for me. that means mechanics as well as design. remove every unneccessary foobar. 2012-03-12 00:38 sure 2012-03-12 00:39 yes it will have angled and or round sides, for mechanical feeling (no sharp edges).. but thats a requirement, not design for optics 2012-03-12 00:39 lucky that its small enough to fit our mill... will have to do loads of experiments finding out how to properly mill acryllics 2012-03-12 00:39 the mm1 is too big to mill! 2012-03-12 00:40 * wpwrak finds many of apple's design ideas inspiring. brutally unadorned is good :) 2012-03-12 00:41 wpwrak: some, yes. but they also have a lot of stupid ones, which are obviously not thought through. 2012-03-12 00:41 'design' is not just the surface 2012-03-12 00:41 oh yes. you have to be selective in what you recycle :) 2012-03-12 00:41 good design starts with an idea and then brings that idea out in practical ways and in real life 2012-03-12 00:41 e.g. the sharp corners on the new aluminium series notebooks. people are now even explaining how to 'sand down the front corner' 2012-03-12 00:41 why? because it hurts your wrists elsewise when using a lot 2012-03-12 00:42 milling acrylics sounds good 2012-03-12 00:42 roh: (mill m1) you mean even one piece ? or the whole set ? 2012-03-12 00:42 (as an experiment) 2012-03-12 00:42 wpwrak: the top and bottom pieces are too big for the Y direction 2012-03-12 00:43 wpwrak: we can do something like 24cm X and 12.5cm Y travel 2012-03-12 00:43 (sharp Al edges) they should at least make it stainless steel then - like any serious knife :) 2012-03-12 00:43 we should actually send the entire m1 box and case to some design contests 2012-03-12 00:43 why not? 2012-03-12 00:43 (Y size) oh, pity. i thought you could do larger things. 2012-03-12 00:43 if they hate it, let them throw it out of the competition :-) 2012-03-12 00:43 wolfspraul: i know its possible, i just dont know what the things to know are yet. maybe i need cooling, maybe its just a question of sharp tools/millheads and the right speed 2012-03-12 00:44 otherwise I want to see it standing site by side to an Apple iWhatever and either win or loose :-) 2012-03-12 00:44 wpwrak: nope. but we can do steel. its very solid and strong 2012-03-12 00:45 we promise not to bribe the judges 2012-03-12 00:45 a steel case for gta04 should be nice. instant FCC approval ;-) 2012-03-12 00:45 of course, apple may sue you for stealing and perfecting their idea ... 2012-03-12 00:46 if somebody sues me, ive already won (free publicity) 2012-03-12 00:46 wolfspraul: frog design vs. "laser cutter style" ? :) 2012-03-12 00:46 yes, gives you the kick. I still remember last time I got a letter from 'famous' Intel! 2012-03-12 00:46 they even said they are 'famous' in the first line 2012-03-12 00:46 (seriously) 2012-03-12 00:46 ;-)) 2012-03-12 00:46 I was so impressed. 2012-03-12 00:47 hihi. what did you do? misplace a datasheet? 2012-03-12 00:47 Qi Inside 2012-03-12 00:47 hihi 2012-03-12 00:47 hah ! ;-) 2012-03-12 00:47 in the dungeon with him ! 2012-03-12 00:47 oh my god 2012-03-12 00:47 I may need to cleanse the irclogs now 2012-03-12 00:47 argh 2012-03-12 00:47 I signed the gazillion USD punishment treaty they offered me 2012-03-12 00:47 oh wait, maybe not 2012-03-12 00:47 isn't parody "fair use" ? :) 2012-03-12 00:48 wpwrak: for me it is 2012-03-12 00:48 'telefonstreich!1!telefonstreich!!1!' 2012-03-12 00:48 I was already planning to sell "Wolfgang Inside" supporter t-shirts with a pic of me behind bars 2012-03-12 00:48 but before I could really kick into high gear, they stoped responding to my mails :-) 2012-03-12 00:48 roh: btw, did you run into any acrylic pitfalls with the mill yet ? i thought one of your very first experiments was with acrylic and it looked quite alright 2012-03-12 00:49 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-12 00:49 cladamw has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-12 00:49 wpwrak: not yet... thus i think i can get away with using proper speed and tools 2012-03-12 00:49 "wolfgang inside" very nice :) 2012-03-12 00:50 roh: didn't you make some sort of plaque with the mill as the first experiment ? 2012-03-12 00:50 (many years ago) 2012-03-12 00:50 wpwrak: we tried, but we failed 2012-03-12 00:50 ah, i see 2012-03-12 00:50 not enough tries for the amount of material 2012-03-12 00:51 hehe :) 2012-03-12 00:51 i still got the rests 2012-03-12 00:51 the cad design of one of those that the text mirrored 2012-03-12 00:51 shit happens :) 2012-03-12 00:51 so the 1st price would have looked quite weird... either the text mirrored, or the '1' 2012-03-12 00:52 ack. we learned from it 2012-03-12 00:56 the risk of creating toolpaths directly, without using CAD :) 2012-03-12 00:57 in this weekend's wood experiments, i also generated toolpaths directly. also got a nice collection of bugs :) 2012-03-12 00:59 wpwrak: well.. it had cad. but the mirroring was gone wrong and we didnt check till it was too late 2012-03-12 00:59 classic -e-human-too-distracted-because-its-something-new 2012-03-12 00:59 i should actually run this through openscad or such. make a block, then extrude a cylinder along the toolpath and subtract it from the block. in theory, the resulting solid should emerge. i may blow openscad's brain in the process, though. 2012-03-12 01:00 ah, the christmas effect :) 2012-03-12 01:00 we were so kept by making shure its milling ok that nobody questioned where it was milling, just how fast and what the finish looks like 2012-03-12 01:00 all our more complex (not handwritten) gcodes for the mill were from heekscam so far 2012-03-12 01:00 if the prospective recipient was a true geek, he would have approved of your priorities :) 2012-03-12 01:01 models were made somewhere lese 2012-03-12 01:01 oh.. that was fine. it was for a challenge nobody really archieved ;) 2012-03-12 01:01 now that heekscad is dying, what we you using / considering to use ? 2012-03-12 01:02 so there was no 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. just 'tried hard' 'yeah. nice, but worse that the last' and 'not the last' 2012-03-12 01:02 not sure. we'll see 2012-03-12 01:03 i guess since i will base it on 2d cad again i will see what there is and how well it works again 2012-03-12 01:03 there were some tools to make toolpathes from 2d stuff 2012-03-12 01:03 and after all... i edit gcode a lot in the end 2012-03-12 01:03 adding 'jumps' over clamps etc 2012-03-12 01:04 changing parameter like speed or so 2012-03-12 01:04 part of the machinist's job 2012-03-12 01:05 thats why people are 'cnc machining engineers' nowadys, not just workers 2012-03-12 01:09 wow. jumps over clamps ;-) 2012-03-12 01:17 * pabs3 likes the FR case, nice and solid, no need for a rubber cover 2012-03-12 01:26 the printed cases have no coating like the ones we had for gta02 2012-03-12 01:27 does that matter? 2012-03-12 01:27 feels quite different 2012-03-12 01:28 pabs3: following industry processes blindly is a recipe for failure 2012-03-12 01:28 we need to build up our own processes thinking only about what works FOR US 2012-03-12 01:29 from the materials, software tools, machines to assembly process and through several product generations 2012-03-12 01:30 roh: btw, have you done two-sided milling yet ? i.e., do one side, flip the part, then do the other side. if yes, how bad was the experience ? ;-) 2012-03-12 01:31 (i'm currently limiting myself to one-sided only. but it's hard) 2012-03-12 01:31 wolfspraul: agreed. I was mainly commenting on the case design. I guess the materials used matter though 2012-03-12 01:31 wpwrak: not yet 2012-03-12 01:31 wpwrak: mostly a question of precise clamping mechanics 2012-03-12 01:32 two-sided would be easier when making molds. but that opens a few cans of gourmet worms of its own ... 2012-03-12 01:32 pabs3: the case design is a result of the needs and plans of the companies making/selling it 2012-03-12 01:33 don't be so naive that you think they designed it so that YOU like it 2012-03-12 01:33 clamping or acquiring the orientation. in my case, if have the additional problem that i have no clamps. it's all adhesive tape :-( 2012-03-12 01:33 they designed is so that it is profitable for them, and through several generations/product line, reuse of tools, etc. and then they spend time to explain to you why you SHOULD like it, why it's so COOL. :-) 2012-03-12 01:33 that's a business 2012-03-12 01:33 if we are confused about this and just say "oh, we also want to be so cool", that's just stupid and we will go nowhere. 2012-03-12 01:33 we know the history of that FR case design ... ;-) 2012-03-12 01:34 we need to serve our own needs, make it cheap and good and easy to manufacture and service. 2012-03-12 01:34 that's great design 2012-03-12 01:34 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-12 01:34 then we explain why it's cool 2012-03-12 01:34 the outer shape is a side-effect, almost casualty, of this process 2012-03-12 01:34 at the moment, we're pretty much tool-driven. or, rather, tool-constrained 2012-03-12 01:35 * pabs3 not familiar with the history, sorry 2012-03-12 01:35 don't believe some marketing folks who are trying to tell you that some artist made this and it fell from the sky 2012-03-12 01:35 consumer electronics companies are strictly economics driven, including, and especially so, Apple 2012-03-12 01:35 those profits allow them to drive a big machine explaining why the look that is best for them is also "great-looking" for you 2012-03-12 01:36 that's all :-) 2012-03-12 01:36 if someone digs up a pot of gold, a proper 3D printer may be something worth playing with for prototyping. that may still not give us a "go straight to the fab" process, but it would give up full design control. 2012-03-12 01:37 we can achieve much of the same with CNC mills, but they require a lot more experience and effort. 2012-03-12 01:37 s/give up/give us/ 2012-03-12 01:40 wolfspraul: i think the big difference is going from 2D or 3-axis CNC to 5/6-axis or 3D printing (for models/prototypes) 2012-03-12 01:42 the prototype is a prototype for what? a prototype to demonstrate a hopeless Apple-catchup? or a prototype to demonstrate an independent but unmanufacturable design position? or a prototype for a sensationally economic manufacturing process? 2012-03-12 01:42 with 2D, you're limited to designs like the M1 case. i.e., anything that pokes outside your plane is difficult. M1 is an example that shows that you can still get a nice overall result. but the approach has many limits. 2012-03-12 01:42 I think about manufacturing first, if the prototype gets us closer to cheaper manufacturing - great. 2012-03-12 01:42 a prototype for the shape. then you go to the fab and let their people re-capture the design with the tools they use 2012-03-12 01:42 nah 2012-03-12 01:42 that black box approach doesn't work 2012-03-12 01:43 the black box does not exist 2012-03-12 01:43 you even have it to some extent for PCBs 2012-03-12 01:43 I'm all in favor of experiments and prototypes, just wondering what they are used for then. 2012-03-12 01:43 you send them the gerbers or placement files, but then something "magic" happens with them inside the fab before things go to the actual machines 2012-03-12 01:43 I think 90% will just demonstrate their desire to catchup with Apple, because few people actually have an independent design position in their minds. 2012-03-12 01:44 and if they would, maybe they wouldn't need the fancy 3D printer in the first place 2012-03-12 01:44 just go to any contemporary art fair, and check how many fancy tools those guys need for their works 2012-03-12 01:44 you will be surprised :-) 2012-03-12 01:44 you need prototypes to find out if the thing "works". i.e., is it mechanically sound ? does it feel right ? if there are moving parts, do they move ? do they interfere ? is anything too loose or too tight ? 2012-03-12 01:45 totally, agree 2012-03-12 01:45 but then what? we want to manufacture and sell stuff 2012-03-12 01:45 not make 1 prototype or super low-volume fine-art edition 2012-03-12 01:46 you need the prototype to validate your design. for fabrication, you then need something that's optimized for the machines and the process that will be used 2012-03-12 01:46 if we don't understand those "machines and processes", then they don't exist 2012-03-12 01:46 best case would be that you generate an STL file they can adapt 2012-03-12 01:46 that is the same as with the PCB maker btw, only that we are all quite clear about PCBs so that knowledge is implicit 2012-03-12 01:46 oh, you can understand them. but they still vary 2012-03-12 01:46 whereas in mechanical we are still building it up 2012-03-12 01:47 but I know for sure that the "we make a prototype and then we send it to china to copy cheap" approach is 100% guaranteed to fail 2012-03-12 01:48 why ? 2012-03-12 01:48 because you will project wrong capabilities on your 'cheap chinese copy machine' 2012-03-12 01:48 well, you have to understand the limitations of their process 2012-03-12 01:49 e.g., if you plan to injection-mold, better don't have enclosed empty spaces :) 2012-03-12 01:49 anybodys' process, materials, software and machine tools, etc. yes. 2012-03-12 01:49 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-12 01:49 I think the path we are on with the m1 case is perfectly right. 2012-03-12 01:49 just as a bottom line 2012-03-12 01:49 it's a perfect case 2012-03-12 01:50 maybe we could experiment with metal a little 2012-03-12 01:50 sure. for example, there's a very long list of things to consider when injection-molding. but all that can already be in your prototype. even if you made it with a 3D printer capable of creating arbitrary shapes. (the better ones can do that) 2012-03-12 01:50 and I will still try to make those parts out of FR4 (common pcb core material) 2012-03-12 01:50 but why? 2012-03-12 01:50 I was asking about the goal 2012-03-12 01:50 catch up/copy some other corp A? 2012-03-12 01:51 make a functional improvement? 2012-03-12 01:51 make it to the MoMA? 2012-03-12 01:51 functional improvement, high volume, etc. 2012-03-12 01:51 for example the m1 case is not waterproof 2012-03-12 01:51 if you spill a bottle of beer on it - bad 2012-03-12 01:51 so we can now try to work on that without making the case less manufacturable or more expensive 2012-03-12 01:51 or maybe that's too hard / not worth it 2012-03-12 01:52 the M1 case is adequate for that sort of device. but you couldn't use the same approach for something much smaller. 2012-03-12 01:52 why not? 2012-03-12 01:52 that begs for an experiment, no? :-) 2012-03-12 01:52 and try to build something as simple as a battery cover with that laser cutter :) 2012-03-12 01:53 no need 2012-03-12 01:53 we learn from corp A that removable batteries are a thing of the past anyway :-) 2012-03-12 01:53 (joking, joking) 2012-03-12 01:53 I will only follow a decision making process that makes my life easier, and thus helps me serve my customers better. 2012-03-12 01:54 the approach of company A is very tempting. but what if you're super cost-sensitive and want disposable batteries ? 2012-03-12 01:54 my point is: we must choose a process that HELPS US. 2012-03-12 01:54 that is the killer design 2012-03-12 01:54 i would just make a screwable back-cover for now. 2012-03-12 01:55 of course. process follows design. design follows function. 2012-03-12 01:55 not to run around like chicken trying to copy others, or hoping in some magic black boxes to fix the things we don't want or cannot think about 2012-03-12 01:55 roh: not very consumer-friendly 2012-03-12 01:55 roh: yes 2012-03-12 01:55 who says that 2012-03-12 01:55 nothing is unreplaceable as long as you can open and close something without destroying 2012-03-12 01:55 I go out and say this *IS* the most consumer friendly way 2012-03-12 01:55 wpwrak: its not for endusers. its for experienced ones in that case. 2012-03-12 01:55 no way 2012-03-12 01:55 you guys don't factor in how public perception is formed 2012-03-12 01:56 especially since the sim and sd are behind the battery 2012-03-12 01:56 corp A first looks at what is more profitable for them 2012-03-12 01:56 then they decide to do that 2012-03-12 01:56 then they decide to use the profits to tell people in very smart ways how great this is for them 2012-03-12 01:56 if those would be external reachable, i could imagine something screw-accessible even for endusers 2012-03-12 01:56 that's only fair, that's a business 2012-03-12 01:56 roh: yes. i want to reach the masses. people who don't even own a screwdriver. and if they do, they'd be confused why your screws have two slits 2012-03-12 01:56 wpwrak: users arent that stupid anymore. 2012-03-12 01:57 i see a lot of technology reuse and abuse, also from real endusers. 2012-03-12 01:57 we are on a good path, I am very proud of the m1 case 2012-03-12 01:57 actually I will really try to get it into some design competition 2012-03-12 01:57 roh: consider the tamagochi. would you build that with screws to change the battery ? 2012-03-12 01:57 just sent an email out to a friend to recommend me one, let's see :-) 2012-03-12 01:58 wpwrak: i wouldnt work on it because its a bad product (generates waste mostly) 2012-03-12 01:58 the tamagochi's case was built like that because it suited the manufacturer of the tamagochi at the time 2012-03-12 01:58 not because some genius/designed had an idea under the shower in the morning and then proceeded like moses to bring this to earth 2012-03-12 01:58 roh: think of it as something generating revenue. to hell with the planet. there's not shortage of planets in this galaxy :) 2012-03-12 01:59 wpwrak: doesnt work for me 2012-03-12 01:59 i need a stronger motivation than money usually 2012-03-12 01:59 and we don't need to under-estimate the design flexibility of users, small or large part of the population 2012-03-12 02:00 roh: so you want something that meets user expectations. changing the battery should be easy. nothing fumbly. certainly no screwdrivers - helicopter mum would freak out when you were showing her such a dangerous tool that could hurt her little darlings. 2012-03-12 02:00 if something works really well for yourself, there is a very good chance it works well for others too 2012-03-12 02:00 that is 100 times stronger than any marketing campaign trying to tell me this or that 2012-03-12 02:00 wpwrak: wrong 2012-03-12 02:00 I have at least 20 toys in my household, all with batteries. 2012-03-12 02:00 so nasty 2012-03-12 02:00 and >75% of them are fastened with screws 2012-03-12 02:01 some are not, and then for those toys I easily loose the battery cover 2012-03-12 02:01 wpwrak: you are barking up the wrong tree. i am pro replaceable. 2012-03-12 02:01 daddy has to recharge the batteries anyway, so it doesn't matter to me whether I have to unscrew the battery cover or not 2012-03-12 02:01 wpwrak: easy is a question of pov. 2012-03-12 02:01 how long does a battery last in those that have screws ? in relation to useful product life 2012-03-12 02:01 but for those toys where we lost the battery door - bad 2012-03-12 02:01 years. 2012-03-12 02:02 i still have a battery in my phone which is 3 or 4 years old now 2012-03-12 02:02 wpwrak: my daugher manages to run through the batteries in a toy she likes within days! 2012-03-12 02:02 and I still prefer the battery door to have screws, and I must not be alone since so many toys are like that 2012-03-12 02:02 for stuff which isnt charged 'as it it' sure. 2012-03-12 02:03 and that toy where the batteries last only for days is with screws ? 2012-03-12 02:03 yes 2012-03-12 02:03 absolutely 2012-03-12 02:03 maybe they just expect people to throw it away and buy a new one ;-) 2012-03-12 02:03 and that is fine, because the price for not having screws is a higher chance to loose the battery door 2012-03-12 02:03 and THAT IS BAD 2012-03-12 02:03 go find a battery door in a children's playroom - argh 2012-03-12 02:03 ;-)) 2012-03-12 02:04 there's more to it. if your device is intended for mobile use, you may not have access to a screwdriver and/or a suitable environment when you need to change batteries 2012-03-12 02:04 that's true 2012-03-12 02:05 and I am in disagreement with roh over the screws where he prefers an Allen key, but I think a Philips key is better/more common 2012-03-12 02:05 wpwrak: as i said. if its something which isnt charged as it its... it has no screws. but thats just for low-end crap anyhow. 2012-03-12 02:05 i dont do that 2012-03-12 02:05 losing screws is also a bad thing. and they tend to be lost easier than a battery cover. maybe not in the case of kids toys, because kids may not appreciate the need to preserve the battery cover. so once they're able to remove it they will. while they can't remove the screws. 2012-03-12 02:05 yes :-) 2012-03-12 02:06 but that's one example of "stands in real life", and those are the kinds of things we must design our products for 2012-03-12 02:06 e.g. why do remotes not have rechargeable li-po cells and a micro-usb conn? 2012-03-12 02:06 of course, once your daughter has learned where to find daddy's tools and how to remove the screws, you'll spend your days hunting the chinese markets for the right kind of tiny screws :) 2012-03-12 02:06 just recharge once every few month 2012-03-12 02:07 wpwrak: screws are actually quite standartized compared to battery flaps 2012-03-12 02:07 roh: a rechargeable battery would probably double or triple the manufacturing cost 2012-03-12 02:07 wpwrak: ack. 2012-03-12 02:07 but not as in tco for the user 2012-03-12 02:07 adding about 2 sets of non-rechargeables every year 2012-03-12 02:08 those cost the same as the remote a set 2012-03-12 02:08 roh: since when do consumers think in terms of TCO ? especially when it comes to low-cost products ? 2012-03-12 02:08 wpwrak: ignore that. doesnt matter for open products without an included obsolescence limit. 2012-03-12 02:09 that's two different things 2012-03-12 02:09 no. 2012-03-12 02:09 and your customer may not care about openness 2012-03-12 02:09 wpwrak: then he usually isnt my customer anyhow. 2012-03-12 02:09 and they may fully expect things to become obsolete. even if they don't 2012-03-12 02:09 customers don't care about openess because that is so vaguely defined 2012-03-12 02:09 ;-) 2012-03-12 02:09 but customers do care about a lot of things that we know can be achieved by using open tech and open processes 2012-03-12 02:10 so I see the 'open' angle as more of a professional one 2012-03-12 02:10 yes, i agree with that 2012-03-12 02:10 and fittingly we have very specific understanding of 'open' 2012-03-12 02:10 it makes our work easier. so we can make better products. 2012-03-12 02:10 yes 2012-03-12 02:10 the end user doesn't see the openness. but they see the product. 2012-03-12 02:10 i think one big salespoint of opensource-hw is the fixability and long live design 2012-03-12 02:11 roh: it can be. but that's not a concern for every product. and not for every user. 2012-03-12 02:12 wpwrak: may be. but ask yourself where the current nonfree trends lead 2012-03-12 02:12 roh: e.g., i avoid use cases where i'd invest time into customizing a product that i know i won't be able to replace without repeating the customization 2012-03-12 02:12 only crappier stuff. people are annoyed by that. 2012-03-12 02:12 design quality as well since 'open' means a wider basis for collaboration 2012-03-12 02:12 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-12 02:12 that can be explained and marketed 2012-03-12 02:12 roh: one consequence is that i don't have a smartphone. well, i have a whole stack of them (from openmoko :) but i don't use them 2012-03-12 02:13 also knowledge of materials and processes, even worker rights and fair trade - all marketable imho 2012-03-12 02:13 roh: crappy only annoys if it fails to meet expectations 2012-03-12 02:13 but product quality stands out for me 2012-03-12 02:13 i dont use a smartphone for a simple different reason. a phone which doesnt survive a day of normal use on one battery is unusable for me. 2012-03-12 02:13 if open hardware takes off, it will be very hard to match the quality of its designs 2012-03-12 02:13 not if - 'when' it takes off :-) 2012-03-12 02:14 roh: there are things where it's quite okay if they don't last a lifetime. it's sometimes easier to replace something than to make it durable and take appropriate care of it 2012-03-12 02:15 wpwrak: that will change as ressources are going down 2012-03-12 02:15 wpwrak: think about oil getting 10 times as expensive and energy being also much more expensive. 2012-03-12 02:15 same for shipping and materials. 2012-03-12 02:16 roh: that'll take a lot of time ;) and it may actually be more resource-friendly to make something cheap than something durable 2012-03-12 02:16 then the manufacturers can only sell if products last much much longer, or people will simply not buy them anymore 2012-03-12 02:16 wpwrak: no. it doesnt take as long as you think. <20 years. 2012-03-12 02:17 we'll probably see many uses of plastic get replaced with ceramics in due time. 2012-03-12 02:17 we are some years after peak oil and gas are now. prices will only rise. 2012-03-12 02:17 wpwrak: where it makes sense, sure. e.g. kitchen things 2012-03-12 02:17 i think i heard those 20 years some 30 years ago ;-) 2012-03-12 02:18 wpwrak: 20 years ago we were pre peak oil and gas 2012-03-12 02:18 thats not that long ago (around 2000, +-5 depending who you ask or believe) 2012-03-12 02:18 oh, there's an oil crisis every few years :) 2012-03-12 02:18 nope. 2012-03-12 02:18 increasing energy costs (if they increase at all) will affect tech the least, because tech is so efficient and semiconductor advances can be measured in factors of thousands 2012-03-12 02:19 so whatever energy price increase can easily be offset with moore's law, even if that looses up slowly 2012-03-12 02:19 there always is. be it perceived lack of reservoirs, be it lack of production capability, be it an inopportune war, whatever 2012-03-12 02:19 wolfspraul: the biggest energy users are transport, heating, light, and production. not all of those can be shrunk down that much 2012-03-12 02:19 yes 2012-03-12 02:19 that's my point 2012-03-12 02:20 and about half of the oil crises are just to justify increasing prices 2012-03-12 02:20 e.g. compared to what my room lighting eats, all my electronic appliances eat less combined. including the computer. that was different about 10 years ago. 2012-03-12 02:20 so the tech economics are barely affected by energy costs 2012-03-12 02:20 yes, and shrinking. amazing, no? 2012-03-12 02:20 wpwrak: its real reduction in production the last few years. 2012-03-12 02:21 roh: which makes a lot of sense for oil-rich countries 2012-03-12 02:21 i dont know if you noticed, but last winter russia delivered 20-30% less gas to europe not because of the usual cases (conflicts with transit countries) but because their production is down and they needed it for heating themselves. 2012-03-12 02:22 wpwrak: no. prices are high. they would like to produce more. there is just nothing they can do atm. pressure of the gas and oilfields is falling. you cannot just 'get out more' in the same time. doesnt work that way 2012-03-12 02:23 we don't get much russian oil or gas around here :) argentina has its own energy crisis, but that's 100% made by poor politics. we have plenty of oil. 2012-03-12 02:23 wolfspraul: i think the hightech industries can manage with what they can get much longer than others. e.g. the heavy industries are hit hard by energy cost (try melting alumunium by solar power) 2012-03-12 02:24 perhaps that's really the problem in russia. maybe they're also not investing that much into exploiting new deposits. 2012-03-12 02:25 wolfspraul: hightech was hit hard last year by the japan desaster. harddisk prices doubled within days and chip releases needed to be pushed back. all that just-in-time shit bit them in the ass when the few production places went down 2012-03-12 02:25 just in time is just another name for 'not in stock'. simple fail when viewed from a 'how stress-resistant is a process' angle. 2012-03-12 02:26 i wouldn't call this "hit hard". it's a glitch. "hit hard" would mean that they have to abandon a technology and find something new. 2012-03-12 02:26 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-12 02:26 wpwrak: just stop with that naive 'there needs to be more of the shit we used the last 30 years' thinking. its over. we need to completely revamp our energy systems on planet earth. japan has only 2 of >50 reactors online atm, and will service those 2 soon. 2012-03-12 02:27 and if you had a time machine that can only transport you for five few years or more into the past, would you use it to buy hard disks ? :) 2012-03-12 02:27 they had ~30% nuclear energy before. i dont think that will happen ever again. 2012-03-12 02:28 wpwrak: no. i would use it to put the designs of the more efficient windmills, water turbines and solar technology (electric as liquid based ones) together with a few nowadays chip design into the past. 2012-03-12 02:28 roh: there's a lot of potential for saving energy everywhere. i'm not terribly worried about any countries going non-nuclear. i'd be more worried by them doing it improperly, though. 2012-03-12 02:29 yeah, that sounds like a good use of that time machine :) 2012-03-12 02:29 wpwrak: thats the point. saving gets us nowhere. everything we save in the '1st world' is eaten up by china, india and others while you think. we need to make sure everyone can access better technology than that as early as possible. 2012-03-12 02:30 vendors in china are speaking of 'net-parity' withing 5 years now. thats when power from oil/gas costs the same as out of solar panels 2012-03-12 02:30 yup. not doing obviously stupid things already goes a long way 2012-03-12 02:31 5 years ago we though we can do that in germany only when funding the technology for another 20 years. progress is made and its accellerating fast. 2012-03-12 02:31 and energy prices are still way too low for the most part to cause them to seriously affect choices 2012-03-12 02:31 there's plenty of energy around us, we just need to be a little smarter at converting it 2012-03-12 02:31 china and not wasting energy. hmm ;-) 2012-03-12 02:32 so i think the best we can do is make 'better' technologys for energy production from that fat fusion ball in the milkyway afail fast 2012-03-12 02:32 argh. available fast 2012-03-12 02:32 and don't just run around with clichees of china. just visited a neighbor last weekend who proudly told me he is powering his entire house with a geothermal installation in his backyard - 200m into the ground :-) 2012-03-12 02:33 he tried to do the same at a farm outside of beijing (he is in the agriculture business), but that failed for a variety of reasons - they will try something else now :-) 2012-03-12 02:33 if i didn't know there an entire planet between here and china, i'd think the full moon is caused by it being over china :) 2012-03-12 02:33 wolfspraul: nice. i heard they install about 2/3rds of the chinese solar panels inland, and that the national power provider has to set up poles in villages to power water pumps and gsm basestations. know if that is true? 2012-03-12 02:33 overall I would agree that energy is wasted left and right in China, don't know whether it's worse than in the US though 2012-03-12 02:34 roh: very possible, sure. I don't know naturally because "china" is just too big. It's like 3-4 times "Europe" - and do you know what may happen somewhere in "Europe"? probably not... 2012-03-12 02:34 i think china and the us waste energy in different ways 2012-03-12 02:34 maybe japan should just plaster all the 'lost land' around fukushima with solar panels. atleast then it would produce energy.. you cannot make food there anymore 2012-03-12 02:34 for both styles, you'd be crucified in germany ;-) 2012-03-12 02:36 anyhow. i think its nice that more people have understood how important it is to rethink the energy economy now and things are happening. lets hope other countries get that too, fast 2012-03-12 02:36 roh: (food) hey, give darwin some credit. let's breed a new race of radiation-tolerant humans :) 2012-03-12 02:37 or we will have another high quality export article which will piss people off again *g* 2012-03-12 02:37 wpwrak: they tried in in tschernobyl. doesnt happen. 2012-03-12 02:37 maybe in a few thousand generations. nothing we will know 2012-03-12 02:38 roh: in chernobyl, they chickened out. wildlife seems to be pretty fine with the new situation. maybe the animals are happy that it's not quite so cold in winter now :) 2012-03-12 02:39 the animals survive only by having loads of surplus offspring in numbers. 2012-03-12 02:39 so yes, they die fast. but they spread even faster. doesnt work that way for humans 2012-03-12 02:39 wpwrak: atleast thats what the recent studies show. wildlive yes. but happy? nope. 2012-03-12 02:40 that's only true for some animals 2012-03-12 02:40 the only reason there are so many animals there is that man doesnt hunt em anymore. 2012-03-12 02:41 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2012-03-12 02:41 give them time. you need a few generations for a full adjustment. course the ones that breed faster adjust more quickly. bacterial probably laugh at all the trouble larger mammals are having. 2012-03-12 02:41 you see. one guy's disaster is another guy's opportunity :) 2012-03-12 02:42 wpwrak: there is no higher animal we know of which can cope radiation. they all mutate and have genetic defects fast. 2012-03-12 02:43 but they usually survive anyway 2012-03-12 02:43 don't confuse individual tragedy with long-term survival of the population 2012-03-12 02:43 i think the bigger question is: what happens if germany and some if its neighbours would partner up with japan becoming the worlds leading natural energy consortium? i think that would strike more than shock and awe into some leaders minds. 2012-03-12 02:45 because regardless what happens. some facts are clear. coal, gas and oil will run out (also uranium btw). when exactly and with what curve is matter for discussion.. but do you want to be the last idiot to change? 2012-03-12 02:45 what would that mean ? file more patents and prevent the others from using renewable energies ? 2012-03-12 02:45 keep the technology secret ? 2012-03-12 02:45 [commit] Xiangfu: milkyist-files: add uci config files for 703n (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/0c2686e 2012-03-12 02:45 thats economic suicide (being the last) 2012-03-12 02:45 wpwrak: nope. patents dont protect shit. build stuff. make shit. first. 2012-03-12 02:46 if you do it earlier, you have more experience, better products. same game as always. innovate and improve. 2012-03-12 02:46 all gtk package failed to build on recently openwrt under toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.6-linaro_uClibc-0.9.33 2012-03-12 02:46 we dont have any natural ressources to be worth a lot. so we need to sell brainpower anyhow. 2012-03-12 02:47 the knowledge gradient can only be so steep. if country A can do something and country B can't, it's often just a question of B not wanting it badly enough 2012-03-12 02:48 wpwrak: i think history prooves my point. i havent seen a single product copy being better than the original. 2012-03-12 02:48 hey btw 2012-03-12 02:48 a little back to hardware, I think I realized something recently 2012-03-12 02:48 what i mean is that .de and .jp may very well take the lead. but others will not have to be far behind. 2012-03-12 02:48 in China I typically see a few companies specializing on a particular product, usually less than 5, often just 1-2 2012-03-12 02:49 but what are their survival strategies if they don't have the highest volume on that product? 2012-03-12 02:49 cut corners on quality! 2012-03-12 02:49 the customer decides what they end up buying, the manufacturer doesn't care 2012-03-12 02:49 but they do this systematically, because you never know you may cut something that nobody actually cares about 2012-03-12 02:49 so say some competitor A is producting a product X, volume Y/month 2012-03-12 02:50 you start, you want to get into this market 2012-03-12 02:50