2012-01-28 00:03 and yeah, schedule does not seem to be called ever 2012-01-28 00:07 I wish openocd supported single stepping... 2012-01-28 00:10 * DocScrutinizer would toss a Lauterbach over to lindi, if it wasn't such an incredibly expensive and closed and dongled tool that lindi-_ wouldn't like it anyway 2012-01-28 00:14 it's really convenient to click the "load" button which implicitly resets the attached DUT, and a few moments later you see the first opcode of ROM-BL highlighted in the listing window, and a "stopped" in the status line 2012-01-28 00:16 even more convenient is to set a breakpoint to the interesting line of your patched code, and when it stops again, click on the two parameters to strcmp() to find you passed a pointer to "LLDEBUG" while the compared item in the list is "LLDebug" 2012-01-28 00:17 probably saved me like 2h of code analysis today 2012-01-28 00:18 now you could say "duh, use printf() - just does the same for you" - ust LLDebug was the name of the UART where printf() prints to ;-D 2012-01-28 00:19 so you could say I patched printf(), and it'S not a nice idea to use printf(9 inside printf() to debug it 2012-01-28 00:22 btw Lauterbach trace32 software can do this on ARM core SoC via JTAG 2012-01-28 00:24 so if it wasn't for the dongle, you probably wouldn't even need the Lauterbach hardware 2012-01-28 00:24 seems it is never exiting the interrupt handler 2012-01-28 00:25 only thing that doesn't work when you use JTAG only is the 512MB backtrace buffer in Lauterbach hw, that allows you to run the code "backwards" 2012-01-28 00:26 at least that's not possible in realtime via JTAG ;-D 2012-01-28 00:28 yeah nice non-free tools indeed :/ 2012-01-28 00:28 I thought you'd appreciate to hear what's possible via JTAG if only the free tools were smart enough 2012-01-28 00:28 now I'd like to know how the cpu gets to execute instruction at 0xc02975a4 2012-01-28 00:29 it's not executing the instruction before that so something is branching there 2012-01-28 00:29 hehe 2012-01-28 00:29 but according to source there isn't any kind of loop :/ 2012-01-28 00:30 a clear case for backtrace buffer 2012-01-28 00:30 or auto-singlestepped mode 2012-01-28 00:31 though *terribly* slow, it should be able to create a backtrace as well 2012-01-28 00:33 hmm, single stepping seems to work after some openocd magic :/ 2012-01-28 00:36 DocScrutinizer: gdb has some support for reversible debugging, doesn't it? 2012-01-28 00:36 should 2012-01-28 00:36 I admit I'm not a gdb wizard 2012-01-28 00:37 I'll just try it for my arm now 2012-01-28 00:37 ... only to find out that I do not have it atm. 2012-01-28 00:39 DocScrutinizer: actually, if your arch has a proper gdbserver, then you have half of those features for certain, and maybe have reversible debugging, if it's actually working. so things are not that bad 2012-01-28 00:40 I never said things were bad 2012-01-28 00:40 ok, then I misunderstood you 2012-01-28 00:41 just debugging kernel on arm seems wasn't possible a year ago, since no free (or no at all) version of kdbg available for that 2012-01-28 00:42 lindi-_ is debugging suspend/resume issues on GTA02, not exactly gdb's primary domain 2012-01-28 00:47 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 00:48 and I think I should get a beer now at my pub, so I'll see sth else than LCD screens all day and all night 2012-01-28 00:48 :-D 2012-01-28 00:49 you could try to find a CRT for home use :) 2012-01-28 00:52 maybe I could invent some goggles/glasses that are made of some special material energized by washing with liquid air from Himalaya, to remove that nasty mind corrupting vibrations from that light that goes thru the liquid crystal. Might be a commercial success story on next esoteric convention 2012-01-28 00:53 sounds like a plan 2012-01-28 01:15 re 2012-01-28 01:25 MEH 2012-01-28 01:25 that was a quick beer 2012-01-28 01:26 no, that was the slowest waitress I've ever seen, paired with amnesia and a bunch of drunken assholes 2012-01-28 01:26 I probably would die from thirst in there 2012-01-28 01:26 ;-) 2012-01-28 01:27 the reward for trying to do weird things which are not related to looking at LCD 2012-01-28 01:29 poetic justice, swiftly served by the agent on duty, disguised as a waitress 2012-01-28 01:30 indeed 2012-01-28 01:33 don't forget her troops! a really nice bunch of weird drunken people, one sitting left to me and arguing with the one right to me, face to face. Probably the waitress didn'T even dare to bring a beer for me, no way to place it anywhere 2012-01-28 01:34 * DocScrutinizer gors washing his face 2012-01-28 01:36 you could have asked one of them to swap places with you :) 2012-01-28 03:45 heberth [heberth!~heberth@190.97.216.164] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 04:38 rejon [rejon!~rejon@li382-141.members.linode.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 05:02 qwebirc93098 [qwebirc93098!4766dbba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.102.219.186] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 05:05 whitequark Jean Claude Whippler of JeeLabs does a lot of home automation stuff, all very open. AVRs are ok/fine for the individual sensor nodes, need something beefier for central coordinator. He alswo recently worked through a design to steal a small amount of energy form 230V mains. is not selling due to liability. 2012-01-28 05:07 He uses the HopeRF RFM12B radio. cheap, and it works. I think that's also the device ?? mirko ?? uses for his project 2012-01-28 07:27 jekhor [jekhor!~jek@leased-line-46-53-195-130.telecom.by] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 08:57 DocScrutinizer [DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 09:32 B_Lizzard [B_Lizzard!~havoc@athedsl-428276.home.otenet.gr] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 09:58 Ayla [Ayla!~paul@254.135.123.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 10:00 antoniodariush [antoniodariush!~antonio@host-92-2-65-80.as43234.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 10:32 B_Lizzard [B_Lizzard!~havoc@athedsl-428276.home.otenet.gr] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 10:38 antoniodariush [antoniodariush!~antonio@host-92-2-65-80.as43234.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 11:05 blackrose1231 [blackrose1231!~blackrose@2401:8000:0:1::2ef] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 11:26 kudkudyak [kudkudyak!~sun@94.72.140.37] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 11:38 [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: MIPS: A320: Fine-tune PWM backlight settings. (jz-3.2) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/0bc374e 2012-01-28 11:45 [commit] Paul Cercueil: MIPS: JZ4740: enable the OpenDingux logo only when targetting the Dingoo. (jz-3.2) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/2688101 2012-01-28 11:45 [commit] Paul Cercueil: MIPS: A320: Updated defconfig to match Kconfig changes. (jz-3.2) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/9c420ed 2012-01-28 11:45 [commit] Paul Cercueil: MIPS: A320: defconfig: Tweak scheduling options to get better performance. (jz-3.2) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/d9e5b2b 2012-01-28 11:59 blackrose1231 [blackrose1231!~blackrose@27.225.223.72] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 12:07 [commit] Paul Cercueil: OpenDingux: initrd: added 'splashkill' program. (jz-3.2) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/c9b9fe0 2012-01-28 12:14 kilae [kilae!~chatzilla@catv-161-018.tbwil.ch] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 12:52 wolfspra1l: hmm, this could be an interesting product for qi-hw. should have a nice margin when produced in china. (page in german) http://www.bpes.de/de/boxentransformer.html 2012-01-28 13:13 jluis [jluis!~jluis@2001:5c0:1400:a::515] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 13:49 wolfspraul [wolfspraul!~wolfsprau@p5B0AA963.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 13:50 lol 2012-01-28 13:59 wpwrak: thanks for the link! the text sounds a little esoteric at first read, but I'll read again 2012-01-28 13:59 I am in no way worried about finding product opportunities 2012-01-28 14:00 (esoteric) i think it's highly concentrated snake oil :) 2012-01-28 14:00 and I also don't think there will be anything specific about any country in the manufacturing process 2012-01-28 14:00 no second read needed? 2012-01-28 14:00 but you can't beat the margin on a few pieces of what looks like plastic sold for EUR 2100 :) 2012-01-28 14:01 2nd read only for entertainment value 2012-01-28 14:01 oh that doesn't surprise me. I can't put a percentage figure but A LOT of businesses only survive because at some underlying point, they have these kinds of margins 2012-01-28 14:01 my gut feeling says 50% of businesses at least :-) 2012-01-28 14:02 you can also look at their product catalog. they also have some energy varnish for violins and such :) 2012-01-28 14:02 ok then no 2nd read, I thought it's something serious 2012-01-28 14:02 there's a lot of innovation in speakers indeed, that's why I even read it in the first place 2012-01-28 14:02 because I have come across a lot of initially exotic sounding speaker stuff lately 2012-01-28 14:02 ah ! sorry :) speakers sounded like just credible enough at first to make it more funny 2012-01-28 14:03 jluis [jluis!~jluis@2001:5c0:1400:a::515] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 14:03 rejon [rejon!~rejon@li382-141.members.linode.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 14:03 maybe I become to open-minded towards 'creative' people nowadays 2012-01-28 14:04 about margins, I went through a number of computer/electronics retailers in Germany in recent weeks, and wow, they are changing a lot 2012-01-28 14:04 yeah, though these show more the kind of creativity that gets you executed in china ;-) 2012-01-28 14:04 all I see are piles of very high-margin accessories 2012-01-28 14:04 interesting 2012-01-28 14:04 it's like people are stuck with their computers, and try to keep them alive 2012-01-28 14:04 all the rest is mail order ? 2012-01-28 14:05 so they sell all these crufty little things, extensions, expansions, cables, etc. 2012-01-28 14:05 the computers are also there, but they are clearly loss leaders 2012-01-28 14:06 the store makes money with accessories, when people come back because something doesn't work :-) 2012-01-28 14:07 yeah, cables have traditionally had interesting pricing 2012-01-28 14:10 did you have any luck pimping M1 to shops ? (if you got to doing that ... you were once talking about it) 2012-01-28 14:10 mstevens [mstevens!~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 14:10 they shuold like it better now that is has midi. more accessories to sell ;-)) 2012-01-28 14:11 (accessories) maybe we could offer a special usb-midi cable :) 2012-01-28 14:12 (i.e., USB A for the M1, USB mini B for the MIDI device. perhaps USD 50. after all, it is something a little exclusive that's hard to find elsewhere) 2012-01-28 14:15 ... wait what 2012-01-28 14:16 * whitequark had to read it three times before he finally understood 2012-01-28 14:16 important properties could include: 1) low transmission delay (< 10 ns); 2) ultra-low delay variation; 3) electromagnetic shielding 2012-01-28 14:17 4) asbestos-free 2012-01-28 14:17 (http://xkcd.com/641/) 2012-01-28 14:17 oh right, GREEN !! :) 2012-01-28 14:18 you need to add nanotechnologies somewhere 2012-01-28 14:18 maybe it could come in a sealed bag, sterilized 2012-01-28 14:18 no pitching yet, for that I have to travel around to visit music/dj shops 2012-01-28 14:18 everything is better (from the "get money from govt" point of view) with some nanotechnologies 2012-01-28 14:19 wolfspraul: train network down ? :) 2012-01-28 14:22 EEEW 2012-01-28 14:22 * DocScrutinizer puts on his frozen-air activated rock-crystal goggles before continuing to read http://www.bpes.de/de/boxentransformer.html on his evil LCD screen 2012-01-28 14:23 for the archive records: that link is a hoax 2012-01-28 14:36 i still kinda like the usb-midi cable idea, though. you could probably make good money with this. and you wouldn't even have to lie :) 2012-01-28 14:37 jluis [jluis!~jluis@2001:5c0:1400:a::313] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 14:37 as in "tell a lie". lies of omission are a different topic 2012-01-28 14:39 what cable? size-A to mini-B is the most common type 2012-01-28 14:40 faderfox comes with a cable, I forgot whether one was included in the icreativ 2012-01-28 14:41 I will focus on the product, accessories are a distraction now. 2012-01-28 14:41 iCreativ comes with A to mini-B. so does the nanoKONTROL2 (and probably a ton of midi for iGadget devices) 2012-01-28 14:41 first step is to finish the remote kbd idea, that's really nice 2012-01-28 14:42 and why would that not work with the M1? 2012-01-28 14:42 the connector on M1 is the same as the most common connector on notebooks 2012-01-28 14:43 mini-b into icreativ, the other size into m1 2012-01-28 14:44 no no ... i'm not saying that any random usb cable wouldn't work. that would be a lie. but one could still offer a usb-midi cable, no ? 2012-01-28 14:44 like you can get some fancy ethernet cables for audio 2012-01-28 14:45 of course, that would be preying on the technically weak, who may be led to think (once you tell them that such a product exists) that you actually NEED a special usb-midi cable for usb-midi. 2012-01-28 14:46 or maybe they're just not sure and prefer to err on the safe side. 2012-01-28 14:53 it won't sell 2012-01-28 14:53 I think you underestimate the amount of work needed to actually sell such cables 2012-01-28 14:54 let's make a strong core product first, then accessories 2012-01-28 14:54 and btw, the #1 best accessory for the Ben NanoNote already exists - jane's pouches 2012-01-28 14:55 wpwrak: do you know of a cable which has usb-midi on one end (host) and midi on the other? 2012-01-28 14:55 to use usb-midi devices with stuff that likes real midi 2012-01-28 14:55 we've only found the other way round 2012-01-28 14:56 hehe... i know the other way round exists ;) 2012-01-28 14:56 to connect old-style MIDI devices to a notebook, that exists for 5 USD or so 2012-01-28 14:56 we have not found what you mean 2012-01-28 14:56 i was just thinking if i could trigger wpwrak into hacking mode to brew something up *ducks* 2012-01-28 14:56 you can use a pc ;-) 2012-01-28 14:57 wouldnt that be a job for your 8051? 2012-01-28 14:57 with a pc, it works great. plug in all the usb-midi you want, add a usb-to-midi dongle, connect them all together with qjackctl 2012-01-28 14:59 (my 8051) it doesn't do usb host :) 2012-01-28 14:59 about the led mails... it was so much that I was overwhelmed in replying 2012-01-28 14:59 ;-)) 2012-01-28 14:59 I think all is good now - design verified 2012-01-28 14:59 when Adam is back we can proceed to actual schematic entry? 2012-01-28 14:59 the only question was the size of grid? 2012-01-28 15:00 I have no overview over free pins and routing 2012-01-28 15:00 otherwise you can just pick what you like 2012-01-28 15:00 if we do well, I can imagine other uses for the led array later 2012-01-28 15:00 yeah. the only things missing are 1) see if there is led vs. ir interference. but i'm sufficiently unworried about that that i think i'll postpone such testing until a day i feel really totally and utterly bored :) 2012-01-28 15:00 yes 2012-01-28 15:00 not needed 2012-01-28 15:01 worst case that led has to stay off, so what 2012-01-28 15:01 2) pick a location of the leds in the matrix. i'd leave that to adam / the layout guys. 2012-01-28 15:01 :-) 2012-01-28 15:01 yes 2012-01-28 15:02 3) size of matrix, yes. that can simply be use 3+3 pins, reserve one more 2012-01-28 15:02 let's have one asking size 2012-01-28 15:02 otherwise we just spread uncertainty to more people 2012-01-28 15:03 4) picking pins would also be adam / layout guys. we can adapt to anything they pick within ~30 minutes, 25 of which are the xilinx tools doing their thing 2012-01-28 15:03 that asking size can come with a note *) can be smaller if needed 2012-01-28 15:03 jluis [jluis!~jluis@2001:5c0:1400:a::313] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 15:04 for the size, i'd go with 3 x 4. it's not an excessive number of pins and it allows for up to 24 leds. depending on how you populate the matrix, only a 2x4 or 3x3 area of it would be used, i.e., one pin could be unconnected 2012-01-28 15:05 (there would be no physical matrix anyway. just an equivalent topology) 2012-01-28 15:06 5) decide on the exact layout rules for the leds. such as leaving an area for translucency, distance from connector edge, distance from board edge, any exceptions to the rules, etc. 2012-01-28 15:08 (ir led) yes, that worst case gives me great comfort :) 2012-01-28 15:12 don't make 5) too complicated 2012-01-28 15:12 but yes, sure. I saw your drawing :-) 2012-01-28 15:15 it's one more thing for adam to decide :) 2012-01-28 15:17 ok, so 3*4 is the preferred one 2012-01-28 15:21 great, seems led is exhaustively covered 2012-01-28 15:21 if we are fiddling with layout, a wish I want to add is to move the memcard or jtag-serial so that the memcard can be fully opened 2012-01-28 15:21 just move it a bit, no big change 2012-01-28 15:22 jluis [jluis!~jluis@2001:5c0:1400:a::313] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 15:22 also the jtag-serial has one corner cut out slightly, I am wondering whether that is still needed (there was a 2nd batch of jtag-serial board with minor improvements) 2012-01-28 15:22 3*4 also happens to be the maximum size we can support with 6 mA per LED :) anything larger would get a bit more demanding (well, a little. we could go to vast quantities of LEDs without working up a sweat, if we really must :) 2012-01-28 15:22 if it's still there, that's another thing we can fix 2012-01-28 15:22 yeah, saw the corner. very cute ;-) 2012-01-28 15:23 why is this an issue ? 2012-01-28 15:23 finally the jtag-serial coult be 1mm or so further away from the acrylic, that would make inserting the cable a tad easier 2012-01-28 15:23 not an issue, just a small annoyance 2012-01-28 15:23 i would make a hole in the acrylic and make both the cable and its insertion even easier ;-)) 2012-01-28 15:23 that's another idea 2012-01-28 15:24 "live hinge" anyone ? :) 2012-01-28 15:24 so I just want to move jtag-serial and memcard a little (1-2mm) to solve those 3 issues 2012-01-28 15:24 memcard open, 1mm more clearance to wall, no need for cut corner 2012-01-28 15:24 sure we can make bigger changes, but that's a separate idea then 2012-01-28 15:24 I like having the jtag-serial separate now, it's good 2012-01-28 15:25 again, why is the cut corner an issue ? once you know you need it, it should be trivial to have 2012-01-28 15:25 even though for the foreseeable future all boards will have it inside by default 2012-01-28 15:25 it's a detail that needs to be remembered, and really just a leftover from lack of mechanical overview early on 2012-01-28 15:25 if you want new jtag boards you make backward-compatible, you need to keep the corner anyway 2012-01-28 15:26 it may actually already be fixed in the 2nd-gen jtag-serial, I don't know 2012-01-28 15:26 no need because all m1 have one already and I have plenty in stock 2012-01-28 15:26 I just want to cleanup the board a little, that's al 2012-01-28 15:26 I'm talking about 1-2mm moves 2012-01-28 15:26 my M1r4 has an "RC2" jtab board. that has (and needs) the corner 2012-01-28 15:26 if it's easy, layout should just do it 2012-01-28 15:27 we already have two versions of jtag boards 2012-01-28 15:27 and plenty in stock 2012-01-28 15:27 the point is to cleanup the files going forward 2012-01-28 15:27 has to start at some point... 2012-01-28 15:27 same for memcard blockage 2012-01-28 15:28 this looks alike a case of fighting yesterday's battles :) 2012-01-28 15:28 if those little things won't get done, no big deal either 2012-01-28 15:28 the memcard i get 2012-01-28 15:28 the jtag has already sailed 2012-01-28 15:28 if you move it and anyone makes cards that don't have the corner cut out, they won't work in rc2/rc3 boards 2012-01-28 15:28 I would move the headers on m1 a little so that the board doesn't need the cut corner 2012-01-28 15:29 doesn't matter, since all rc2/rc3 boards have jtag-serial already 2012-01-28 15:29 if you keep on cutting out the corner forever anyway, why bother moving ? :) 2012-01-28 15:29 that's what I want to cleanup, the cut corner need 2012-01-28 15:29 gee, small detail :-) 2012-01-28 15:29 the jtag board could need replacing due to loss, defect (real or imagined) 2012-01-28 15:29 it should take layout less time to move this by 1mm than our discussion here :-) 2012-01-28 15:29 I have plenty in stock 2012-01-28 15:30 and I don't even plan another run without cutting the corner 2012-01-28 15:30 you're trying to solve a problem you've already solved :) 2012-01-28 15:30 but I want to move the headers by 1mm :-) 2012-01-28 15:30 so you don't make the same argument when we are at R5 2012-01-28 15:30 if routing says it's easy, i will ask them to move 2012-01-28 15:30 also memcard opening 2012-01-28 15:30 and also 1mm extra clearance towards wall 2012-01-28 15:31 a bigger thing would be whether to move the memcard to the side 2012-01-28 15:31 I was worried you bring that up :-) 2012-01-28 15:31 but I think we should not do that now 2012-01-28 15:31 well, probably no harm in it. just totally pointless :) 2012-01-28 15:31 not in R4 2012-01-28 15:31 kinda like the endless renames in kicad ;-)) 2012-01-28 15:32 you agree about the memcard? 2012-01-28 15:32 that's highest value of those 3 2012-01-28 15:32 second is 1mm extra clearance to wall 2012-01-28 15:32 the memcard is a disaster. i don't think you can make it worse ;-) 2012-01-28 15:32 third is remove need to cut corner 2012-01-28 15:32 I think we agree actually, on everything. *if* they are moving the jtag-serial headers already, they can also consider that corner thing. 2012-01-28 15:32 so any change to the memcard is good :) 2012-01-28 15:32 because you bet that was not intentional... 2012-01-28 15:33 it has very small practical value now, only cleanup 2012-01-28 15:33 but that most minor thing is what we discuss about 2012-01-28 15:33 if routing says it's difficult in that area, or the power stuff is too close, or whatever, then I wouldn't touch any of this 2012-01-28 15:33 I think the entire current situation is not bad, including memcard 2012-01-28 15:33 I see the memcard as some sort of internal storage 2012-01-28 15:34 and I ship all products with 2gb formatted and installed there 2012-01-28 15:34 while changes to jtag don't seem to do more than change for the sake of changing. kinda like when you go to the supermarket and find your favourite butter with a slightly different logo and somewhere in the corner they printed "NEW LOGO !" 2012-01-28 15:34 (i'm not kidding. i actually saw something like this. though it wasn't butter) 2012-01-28 15:34 the corner cut was not intentional 2012-01-28 15:35 just believe me 2012-01-28 15:35 anyway this is indeed the most minor of those 3 small mechanical annoyances 2012-01-28 15:35 oh, i get that :) just, now that it's there and done, it has no further cost 2012-01-28 15:36 the pcb-cutting cnc machine won't mind that little turn :) 2012-01-28 15:36 and you have no problem discussing whitespace in sources... 2012-01-28 15:36 :-) 2012-01-28 15:36 wpwrak: how do you think, how long will it take to make M1 Rlast? and how long will it be until it will be obsolete? 2012-01-28 15:36 Rlast ? 2012-01-28 15:36 ah, final :) 2012-01-28 15:36 don't understand your question 2012-01-28 15:36 R1, R2, ..., R5, Release. 2012-01-28 15:36 yeah, final revision 2012-01-28 15:37 the more it sells, the more revisions 2012-01-28 15:37 ah, so that M1 revision isn't like release candidate. my bad. 2012-01-28 15:37 even after a Milkymist Two or some other product that replaces M1 comes out, there may still be new M1 revisions 2012-01-28 15:37 it's like cars. you make a new model every year. you stop the line only when it stops selling. 2012-01-28 15:37 whitequark: yes, but you noticed an important detail :-) 2012-01-28 15:37 the 'candidate' was indeed confusing 2012-01-28 15:38 we realized that recently 2012-01-28 15:38 so we stopped saying RC1, RC2, RC3 2012-01-28 15:38 and instead now it's just revision, or R4 2012-01-28 15:38 have we actually announced the name change on the list ? i'd still consider that our "official" channel 2012-01-28 15:38 I'd personally suggest V4, or V1.4 2012-01-28 15:38 like router vendors do 2012-01-28 15:38 that's way less confusing 2012-01-28 15:39 well, we've just settled on R4 2012-01-28 15:39 but maybe V5 in honor of whitequark ? :-) 2012-01-28 15:39 then W6 in honor of Werner 2012-01-28 15:39 how about that? 2012-01-28 15:39 it was M1rc3 (confusing). wolfgang suggested M1r4, which is better. i think i kinda like the idea of a M1.4. been thinking about that for a while, too. 2012-01-28 15:39 each time i type "M1r4", it feels a little wrong 2012-01-28 15:40 oh god, version number discussion 2012-01-28 15:40 I am relaxed about this 2012-01-28 15:40 if it makes werner happy, I am also ok with M1.4 2012-01-28 15:40 the main thing on the sales side is product literature, manual etc. 2012-01-28 15:40 yeah, M1.4 is fine too 2012-01-28 15:40 and they all talk about 'milkymist one' only anyway 2012-01-28 15:40 jluis [jluis!~jluis@2001:5c0:1400:a::313] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 15:40 the rest is 'internal' (open for Qi of course), so we can communicate about improvements 2012-01-28 15:41 so as long as the numbers make sense, including the old ones, I don't care which words or characters there are 2012-01-28 15:41 meaning that... M1R4 can also be M1.4 2012-01-28 15:41 we have another thing, just "Milkymist". that would be the whole category. e.g., i could imagine an M2 with a >= 7" panel 2012-01-28 15:42 that's another discussion 2012-01-28 15:42 the Milkymist brand is confusing, overloaded a bit 2012-01-28 15:42 :) 2012-01-28 15:42 but I wouldn't change that right now, the brand needs more visibility first 2012-01-28 15:42 so I tend to say Milkymist SoC or Milkymist One 2012-01-28 15:42 or sometimes I just say Milkymist when talking to new people, since I mainly want to catch their attention 2012-01-28 15:43 wpwrak: btw, about the 1.4 thing 2012-01-28 15:43 the current silkscreen says Milkymist One RC3 2012-01-28 15:43 datecodes are great to have 2012-01-28 15:43 oh definitely 2012-01-28 15:43 so you suggest Milkymist One M1.4 ? 2012-01-28 15:43 you want to repeat the "M1"? 2012-01-28 15:44 hmm, dunno 2012-01-28 15:44 "Milkymist One V1.4 " ? 2012-01-28 15:44 with R4 the flow is better Milkymist One R4 2012-01-28 15:44 or V4 2012-01-28 15:44 since we are deep in opinion land, I think V is geeky and cheap 2012-01-28 15:45 yes, for the long form, R4 looks nicer 2012-01-28 15:45 I believe if it's R, the product will take off! :-) 2012-01-28 15:45 heh 2012-01-28 15:45 there's a story why the founder of Roland chose that name 2012-01-28 15:46 one reason supposedly was that there were very few/no other companies starting with 'R', and that would give Roland a very visible spot in alphabetical listings at tradeshows and exhibitions 2012-01-28 15:46 that's the legend... 2012-01-28 15:46 :-) 2012-01-28 15:46 (roland) before, they called themselves "Eyjafjallaj 2012-01-28 15:47 heh :) 2012-01-28 15:47 I continue with "R4" unless some other active contributor insists on something else 2012-01-28 15:47 I never type M1R4 anyway 2012-01-28 15:47 there's also the eternal battle for having the most "A" at the beginning of the name 2012-01-28 15:47 because the context is clear 2012-01-28 15:47 yeah but that's cheap 2012-01-28 15:47 very :) 2012-01-28 15:47 but I can see the point of being the only one under 'R' 2012-01-28 15:47 if the story is true 2012-01-28 15:47 so about R4 - leds are settled 2012-01-28 15:48 exhaustively 2012-01-28 15:48 ;-) 2012-01-28 15:48 wpwrak: infinite thanks, really! 2012-01-28 15:48 I hope this turns into a multi-billion dollar LED spinoff, one day 2012-01-28 15:48 er, what? 2012-01-28 15:48 (M1R4) you should type M1r4 anyway ;-) 2012-01-28 15:48 can I see the history of led thing? 2012-01-28 15:48 it's mostly in #milkymist and the milkymist devel list 2012-01-28 15:48 whitequark: are you on the #milkymist list ? 2012-01-28 15:48 wpwrak: nope 2012-01-28 15:48 bah 2012-01-28 15:48 just have a bit here today so the Qi crowd doesn't feel excluded 2012-01-28 15:48 milkymist list, without # 2012-01-28 15:49 most likely there would have been more feedback on the Qi list... 2012-01-28 15:49 so leds are settled 2012-01-28 15:49 mostly 2012-01-28 15:49 I will add my wish item of moving the jtag-serial header slightly to address the issues above - if easy 2012-01-28 15:50 whitequark: for some visual impressions and random stuff: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/leds/ 2012-01-28 15:50 then we have the expansion system 2012-01-28 15:50 whitequark: to make sense of it, you'll have to read the list, though :) 2012-01-28 15:51 (qi crowd excluded) boosting the traffic for the monthly statistics ? :) 2012-01-28 15:51 nah 2012-01-28 15:51 yup. still needs more specs. but ... the part adam needs should be pretty much covered 2012-01-28 15:51 quality stuff will find its way 2012-01-28 15:51 you mean the leds? 2012-01-28 15:51 the expansion header 2012-01-28 15:52 or header(s) 2012-01-28 15:52 oh, we settled on the pins for the second header? 2012-01-28 15:52 i'm fine with the pins adam uses 2012-01-28 15:52 there are two clock pins too (i think), so in case we need any of these, we'll have them 2012-01-28 15:53 nobody mentioned any other special pin features to take into account, so maybe there are none we should care about 2012-01-28 15:54 the ones we do take into account are: voltage (all 3.3 V), differential pairs, and having > 1 clock pins 2012-01-28 15:54 (up from 0 clock pins in M1rc3 :) 2012-01-28 15:55 what i'm not so happy about is that J21 is upside down. but that's too late to fix. 2012-01-28 15:55 and we should probably keep J22 like this too, for consistency 2012-01-28 15:55 better consistently bad than inconsistent :) 2012-01-28 15:56 upside down? 2012-01-28 15:56 >1 you mean >=2 ? 2012-01-28 15:57 people don't mention special pins because almost nobody is using the header now 2012-01-28 15:57 chicken & egg problem, like so many on m1 2012-01-28 15:57 but I agree, the above looks right 2012-01-28 15:57 we do factor in what we've learnt from kpaul and others - clock & differential pairs 2012-01-28 15:58 and if more people learn more things, we will factor them in in the future... 2012-01-28 15:58 ha ha, I like how you reply to the html mail in this ugly way 2012-01-28 15:58 span span span span 2012-01-28 15:59 div div div 2012-01-28 15:59 yes 2012-01-28 15:59 span span 2012-01-28 15:59 div div div 2012-01-28 15:59 :-) 2012-01-28 15:59 (the "yes" was my actual message) 2012-01-28 15:59 knowing you I'm pretty sure you did this on purpose :-) 2012-01-28 16:01 jluis [jluis!~jluis@2001:5c0:1400:a::313] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 16:01 (special pins) well, also people who know that there special pins can mention them. they don't have to actually use them. but since nobody said anything, i suppose it's fine. else, we'll eventually find out ;-) 2012-01-28 16:01 yes, fully agree 2012-01-28 16:01 speed 2012-01-28 16:01 R4 looks like a huge step up from R3 2012-01-28 16:02 (html mail) obviously ;-) 2012-01-28 16:04 (j21 upside down) in the schematics, it's shown with ground at the bottom, which is a common configuration (of the connector i mean, not just of the presentation) 2012-01-28 16:05 in the board, you notice that the ground pins are towards the center of the main pcb. if you work on such a board, you'll probably consider the edge of the M1 as your "bottom". thus, the connector will appear reversed. 2012-01-28 16:05 hmm 2012-01-28 16:05 ok 2012-01-28 16:05 why not rotate the header? 2012-01-28 16:06 we can ease the pain by rotating it in the schematics or in the supporting documentation 2012-01-28 16:06 or on the board 2012-01-28 16:06 if you rotate now, it'll be incompatible with rc2/rc3 2012-01-28 16:06 show the layout folks some respect 2012-01-28 16:06 wouldn't it just be upside down? 2012-01-28 16:07 and plus, we are going from male to female anyway 2012-01-28 16:07 without having found an easy-to-point-to adapter cable or piece yet 2012-01-28 16:08 well, ledm would still fit, even if rotated. not as elegantly, but yes. so 100% of my existing boards would be compatible ;-) 2012-01-28 16:08 (adapter) just take a header 2012-01-28 16:09 jluis_ [jluis_!~jluis@2001:5c0:1400:a::313] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 16:10 the typical header has ~5 mm mating pin on the top and ~2.5 mm pin for soldering at the bottom. those 2.5 mm are just enough to mate with a female socket. it won't be great mechanically, but you get a contact 2012-01-28 16:10 of course, this gives you a bit of a stack 2012-01-28 16:11 but if you rotate your board, it would fit even on rc2/3, no? 2012-01-28 16:11 I think we can go for reversal of the physical header, no problem 2012-01-28 16:12 ledm can be rotated, yes. it'll sit on the dvi connector, but that's okay. there's nothing on the bottom 2012-01-28 16:12 ok, so let's rotate the header? 2012-01-28 16:12 of course, future boards may be more difficult 2012-01-28 16:13 if we do it, it's now or never :) 2012-01-28 16:13 not really because we already know that most and I have no problem at all offering ugprade options to the few that are not, if this should ever become an issue 2012-01-28 16:14 Textmode [Textmode!~boneidle@adsl-syd-2-209.ozonline.com.au] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-28 16:14 I think any argument for not rotating the header is quite hypothetical 2012-01-28 16:14 with so many changes we are making already 2012-01-28 16:14 (future boards) i was thinking of making some experimental board and being able to try it out on an rc3. as the rc3 ages, it also becomes attractive for more risky experiments ;-) 2012-01-28 16:14 sure but that is still possible, even with rotation, no? 2012-01-28 16:15 if that makes you feel uneasy or slow down, then let's not rotate 2012-01-28 16:15 let's float the idea on #milkymist or the list ? 2012-01-28 16:15 you can but there will be 0 responses 2012-01-28 16:15 (possible) yes, but you may have to design specifically for rc3 2012-01-28 16:15 we can also leave the header unrotated 2012-01-28 16:15