2012-01-27 00:54 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 01:12 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 01:31 qwebirc47082 [qwebirc47082!4766dbba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.102.219.186] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 01:34 reading the backlog, interesting to see the effort to identify USB mice that work ok w MM1. How much work will it take to improve USB driver so this hand matching is not required? 2012-01-27 01:56 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 01:56 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 02:38 it will always be required. you'll just get fewer problem cases :) 2012-01-27 02:41 think of it more as of a regression test: we want to be sure the things that work keep on working. that's why it's good to keep track of them. 2012-01-27 02:48 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 03:03 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 03:19 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 03:52 wpwrak with great respect do you think PC makers need to test random USB mice against their new builds? The answer is "no" they have USB ports that meet the standard. 2012-01-27 04:17 well, if you give us one of those fancy test systems ... :) 2012-01-27 04:20 or you can help with the work towards getting linux to run properly. that would also solve a number of usb issues. 2012-01-27 04:24 don't have a usb tester ? no chip design or kernel hacking skills either ? no problem. a modest donation of only a few 100 kUSD would bring us a lot closer to being able to focus the next year or so on polishing things without the need to have anything that can actually be sold 2012-01-27 04:34 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@123.114.251.251] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 04:54 wpwrak you speak with great eloquence sir. one hopes most mice past the test. this problem will solve itself in any case. move along folks, nothing to see here. ;) 2012-01-27 05:22 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 06:50 xiangfu [xiangfu!~user@123.114.251.251] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 07:08 wpwrak: USB zeszer? no problem, I'm sure I could use the one on the desk of my colleague on weekend. Missing any hw to test though 2012-01-27 07:09 s/zeszer/tester/ 2012-01-27 07:09 DocScrutinizer meant: "wpwrak: USB tester? no problem, I'm sure I could use the one on the desk of my colleague on weekend. Missing any hw to test though" 2012-01-27 07:10 btw it's a cheesy little plastic box almost as ugly and cheapish as the Lauterbach ;-D 2012-01-27 07:16 meanwhile: it's kinda nice we see a new user of either N900 or GTA02 every other week lately. You could almost say open phone idea slowly gains a microscopic momentum again 2012-01-27 07:18 * DocScrutinizer makes mental note to start watching a few ebay auctions on weekend, to get his spare spare N900 2012-01-27 07:19 also a few keymats (they are really suffering from wear and tear) 2012-01-27 07:46 jluis [jluis!~jpddb@83.247.136.72] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 08:05 DocScrutinizer: rather shop 6110... still real phones 2012-01-27 08:06 meh 2012-01-27 08:07 I'm indeed missing a "real phone" since all my 5pcs 6210 burnt down in that apartment fire before I joined OM 2012-01-27 08:08 but I'd rather buy some osmocom-bb compatible Cxxx than 6210. I guess I'll get a few 6210 again as gifts over time 2012-01-27 08:08 DocScrutinizer: hrhr 2012-01-27 08:09 i am still using my moto v3i 2012-01-27 08:09 ooh, actually there's still my "original" 6210 that served me right for almost 10 years 2012-01-27 08:09 just the battery is dead now 2012-01-27 08:10 * DocScrutinizer killed that battery by not recharging it for >12 months :-S 2012-01-27 08:11 reminds me.. i should charge the moko stuff from time to time again 2012-01-27 08:11 yeah, same here. Again 6 months since I last did 2012-01-27 08:12 * DocScrutinizer considers building a long term Li battery maintenance rack 2012-01-27 08:13 with a hundred slots with adjustable contacts 2012-01-27 08:13 i guess a cheap third market charger and a lot of relays would be enough 2012-01-27 08:13 well, not relays, too expensive. MOSFETs 2012-01-27 08:14 too fishy to get the charging logic not confused :) 2012-01-27 08:14 meh, what logic ;-D 2012-01-27 08:14 thermistor etc 2012-01-27 08:15 aaah, no way 2012-01-27 08:15 CC/CV 2012-01-27 08:15 i dont like unattended charging without thermistors anymore 2012-01-27 08:15 I.E a stabilized digitally controlled PSU with a series resistor 2012-01-27 08:16 I'll build the thermistorsa into the rack's slots 2012-01-27 08:16 well.. holler if you have something working 2012-01-27 08:16 :nod: 2012-01-27 08:16 i guess printing the battery holders with a 3d printer will be easy 2012-01-27 08:17 as in mill board, solder pogo/spring loaded connector, screw printed plastic frame on top or so 2012-01-27 08:17 the contacts and slots are the worst of the whle thing 2012-01-27 08:19 jekhor [jekhor!~jek@leased-line-46-53-195-130.telecom.by] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 08:20 considering I want it to be universal, mechanically 2012-01-27 08:21 well... swap holder depending on type/series 2012-01-27 08:22 thought about getting 2 or 3 basically different universal holder designs 2012-01-27 08:22 or using Lego ;-D 2012-01-27 08:23 design em in openscad, send me the file 2012-01-27 08:23 k 2012-01-27 08:24 Artyom [Artyom!~chatzilla@h6.net58.bmstu.ru] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 08:26 Hello everyone! Have anyone seen this blog: http://danstrother.com/category/fpgas/ 2012-01-27 08:27 Textmode [Textmode!~boneidle@adsl-syd-2-209.ozonline.com.au] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 08:28 Looks interesting. (At least for me). Especially untraditional SATA connector and cable usage for transfering high LVDS signals 2012-01-27 08:29 umm 2012-01-27 08:57 DocScrutinizer [DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 08:57 mstevens [mstevens!~mstevens@ceres.etla.org] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 08:57 mstevens [mstevens!~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 09:14 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 09:16 Campus Sebastian: http://t.co/4EzeXhGw @mkroberson @Tiffany_Qi_T2K @qihardware ( 162825944871075841@campusl6 - 56s ago via web ) 2012-01-27 09:19 Artyom: thanks a lot for the link! 2012-01-27 09:25 Artyom: if you find any interesting blogs, feeds, projects - especially if they are not in the Qi planet yet - please post here 2012-01-27 09:25 ok ;) 2012-01-27 09:27 DocScrutinizer: (usb tester) hmm, conformance tester or just protocol analyzer ? the latter are more common. there's some windows usb compliance test that's reasonably popular. not entirely sure what it entails. i read often of people referring to it, but nobody actually having used it ;-) 2012-01-27 09:28 DocScrutinizer: (charger with hundreds of slots) we don't know what burnt down your last apartment but we have an idea what will burn down the current one ;-) 2012-01-27 09:54 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 09:55 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 10:30 dvdk [dvdk!~dvdkhlng@g225033008.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 10:52 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 10:56 fossrox [fossrox!~fossrox@unaffiliated/fossrox] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 11:01 antoniodariush [antoniodariush!~antonioda@nat-sta-smtc2.tvu.ac.uk] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 11:05 jivs [jivs!~jivs@nat-sta-smtc2.tvu.ac.uk] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 11:11 mstevens [mstevens!~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 11:49 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: update nanonote daily build folder name and url (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c36a307 2012-01-27 11:49 jirkab [jirkab!~root@pclph406g.vsb.cz] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 12:08 jekhor [jekhor!~jek@mx2.promwad.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 12:53 Ayla [Ayla!~paul@254.135.123.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 13:18 antoniodariush [antoniodariush!~antonioda@nat-sta-smtc2.tvu.ac.uk] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 13:43 wolfspra1l [wolfspra1l!~wolfsprau@p5B0AD3D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 14:13 antoniodariush [antoniodariush!~antonioda@nat-sta-smtc2.tvu.ac.uk] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 14:55 Pinguins Móveis: Pinguins Móveis 24x7 já saiu! http://t.co/A8NShcjv ▸ Principais notícias de hoje via @motorola_br @diariodoandroid @paulobrien @qihardware ( 162911276647989249@pinguinsmoveis - 54s ago via Paper.li ) 2012-01-27 15:25 woakas [woakas!~woakas@pcsp174-30.supercabletv.net.co] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 15:37 Textmode [Textmode!~boneidle@adsl-syd-2-209.ozonline.com.au] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 15:38 paroneayea [paroneayea!~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 15:41 wut 2012-01-27 15:43 B_Lizzard [B_Lizzard!~havoc@athedsl-428276.home.otenet.gr] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 15:43 whitequark: btw got the money 2012-01-27 15:43 thx 2012-01-27 15:45 well, it's my bad that half a year has passed... 2012-01-27 15:46 not that i needed the money anyways :) btw how did you route the payment via wolfspraul? 2012-01-27 15:47 * dvdk closed down his paypal account before christmas, BTW 2012-01-27 15:48 he uses some credit card processing service, and while I do not have an actual credit card, I have an account in a Russian virtual money service Qiwi (not sure how this is actually called in English), I was able to transfer the money to him 2012-01-27 15:49 (qiwi) you have a "virtual wallet" which can you place money into with a terminal (think deposit-only ATM), which they have all over the city in almost impossible quantities 2012-01-27 15:50 then you can pay on the websites which support this system directly or through gateways 2012-01-27 15:50 interesting: the virtual wallet thing. who needs physical credit carts anyways? 2012-01-27 15:50 s/carts/cards 2012-01-27 15:50 dvdk meant: "interesting: the virtual wallet thing. who needs physical credit cards anyways?" 2012-01-27 15:50 recently, they've added a virtual credit card service. you click a button, then pay $0.3 and instantly get a virtual credit card number 2012-01-27 15:50 easily disposable 2012-01-27 15:51 uh, even disposable. hmm, maybe there's something special about using credit cards with russian websites :) 2012-01-27 15:51 that's Visa btw, and every e-shop I ever bought something in accepted it 2012-01-27 15:51 eve digikey (sic!) 2012-01-27 15:51 s,eve,even, 2012-01-27 15:52 even more recently, they've added a plastic card service, which is still linked to the "virtual wallet" 2012-01-27 15:52 so you can retrieve your money back from the system 2012-01-27 15:52 (it _was_ possible before, but it was quite hard -- you were required to go to a special center -- and inconvenient) 2012-01-27 15:53 and now you can use any ATM (they'll collect 1.5% through) 2012-01-27 15:53 ah, one more thing 2012-01-27 15:53 losinggeneration [losinggeneration!~quassel@71-34-161-176.desm.qwest.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 15:53 you actually need exactly one thing to register a Qiwi wallet -- a working mobile phone number 2012-01-27 15:53 no paperwork, no passport scans, it's instant and practically anonymous 2012-01-27 15:53 sounds very convenient 2012-01-27 15:54 you need to provide _some_ name and address when registering Visa cards, but they do not actually attempt to verify that 2012-01-27 15:54 woakas [woakas!~woakas@pcsp174-30.supercabletv.net.co] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 15:54 I wonder which kinds of fraud can you commit with that and how long will it live the way it is 2012-01-27 15:54 but yes 2012-01-27 15:54 it is incredibly convenient 2012-01-27 15:55 there are some limits, like most payments are limited by $500 a time (not Visa ones, through) 2012-01-27 15:55 still very godo 2012-01-27 15:55 s,godo,good, 2012-01-27 15:55 crappy ssh link :/ 2012-01-27 16:00 am I correct that there exists a working combination of software and hardware at #qi that implements a 802.15.4 WPAN, and that this combination is Ben+(whatever that atrf thingy was called) ? 2012-01-27 16:04 for certain defintions of working ;) 2012-01-27 16:04 but i don't know the details 2012-01-27 16:04 wpwrak is the person you want to talk to 2012-01-27 16:19 woakas [woakas!~woakas@pcsp174-30.supercabletv.net.co] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 16:39 the web knows everything :) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/ 2012-01-27 16:42 wpwrak: ok, that's fine for me. Where can I buy two atbens, atusb and a NN? Preferably in a single package delivered by something like fedex. 2012-01-27 16:42 (where) I've seen the discussion about current state of tuxbrain above, hence the question 2012-01-27 16:44 btw, this link is dead: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/zoom.html 2012-01-27 16:44 emeb [emeb!~ericb@ip72-223-81-94.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 16:45 (buy) hmm, i'd still try tuxbrain. else, maybe pulster. 2012-01-27 16:47 hm 2012-01-27 16:48 pulster is significantly more expensive than tuxbrain 2012-01-27 17:02 wpwrak: do you know if XBee's are free hardware? 2012-01-27 17:10 seems only the interface boards, but not the xbee itself 2012-01-27 17:13 aha. 2012-01-27 17:13 (zoom.html) fixed. thanks ! 2012-01-27 17:13 so I'll go buy that stuff, and then explain what I want to do with it 2012-01-27 17:13 hehe, ok :) 2012-01-27 17:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: web/Makefile: also upload zoom.html (reported by Peter Zotov) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a642bfa 2012-01-27 17:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:ben-wpan (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/762d33c 2012-01-27 17:24 antgreen [antgreen!~user@70.50.65.30] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:07 re 2012-01-27 18:11 Que hay en mi Cesta? 2012-01-27 18:11 Tu Cesta de la Compra esta vacia! 2012-01-27 18:11 I don't know what this means, but I hope that it is "your payment was successful" 2012-01-27 18:14 hehe 2012-01-27 18:15 looks more like "your shopping cart is empty" 2012-01-27 18:16 it means: "what's in my shopping cart ?" "your shopping cart is empty!" 2012-01-27 18:25 ah yes, fine then 2012-01-27 18:25 okay 2012-01-27 18:26 I think I've already told what do I want to do: a home automation system implemented as a wireless network of simple specialized devices on a common platform 2012-01-27 18:27 Bruce Perens says "Qi is interesting, but will be important if they ever manage to break out of being a nerds-only product." 2012-01-27 18:27 src http://lwn.net/Articles/475742/#Comments 2012-01-27 18:27 fair enough Bruce, only that you miss the fun of being part of it :-) 2012-01-27 18:27 oh, nice 2012-01-27 18:28 expect nerd part ;) 2012-01-27 18:28 roh [roh!~roh@yamato.hyte.de] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:28 larsc [larsc!~lars@eisbaer.ursus-maritimus.org] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:28 zumbi [zumbi!~zumbi@77.224.206.23] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:28 AwAyla [AwAyla!~paul@254.135.123.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:28 uwe_ [uwe_!~uwe_@dslb-088-066-186-052.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:28 panda|x201 [panda|x201!~hzhang@221.219.114.76] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:28 I can understand the sentiment though, products need to become more polished, easier to use. 2012-01-27 18:29 losinggeneration [losinggeneration!~quassel@71-34-161-176.desm.qwest.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:30 paroneayea [paroneayea!~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:30 >Arduino has some down sides. It does not use a 32-bit processor, so it cannot run complex software (like Linux, for example) 2012-01-27 18:30 ahem 2012-01-27 18:31 whitequark: (home automation) sounds great :) i have such idea pending, too. never moved beyond general ideas, though. 2012-01-27 18:31 >Bruce waved around a DSO Quad, a pocket-sized digital storage oscilloscope. <...> one does not need a large corporation to create compelling mobile products 2012-01-27 18:31 wolfspra1l: all press is good press ;-) 2012-01-27 18:31 while the statement about large corporations is valid, DSO Quad isn't the best example... 2012-01-27 18:31 and the statement about arduino and 32-bit cpus is just stupid 2012-01-27 18:31 that's not really press, he did not mention Qi in his talk, but aware of it like most serious foss people 2012-01-27 18:32 Google sent me a free 75 EUR adwords coupon, nice. I will use it for Milkymist 2012-01-27 18:32 I will try things like video synthesizer, instrument, reconfigurable computer 2012-01-27 18:33 ha, adwords words race :) 2012-01-27 18:34 wpwrak: (home automation) I'll continue on that 2012-01-27 18:34 funny. ads on that article on lwn: rambus and "global IP law group" 2012-01-27 18:34 whitequark: check mirko work around light control using 433mhz tranceivers, prerry interesting 2012-01-27 18:35 oh I don't expect much good, but I've never used adwords and if they send me this free coupon, I'll throw it right back, why not 2012-01-27 18:35 or may be he also have some others plans, since the wireless network is almost ready to be implmented with more appliances i guess 2012-01-27 18:35 interesting fusion of "very" and "pretty". is there "prey" in there as well ? :) 2012-01-27 18:35 I currently want to do basically three types of devices. First is basically a SSR, possibly with current measurement. I will use it to control light and wall sockets. 2012-01-27 18:36 whitequark: how do the devices get power ? 2012-01-27 18:37 Second is a sensor acting as a switch. It may have more applications than I currently think of, but basically it's a replacement for a convenient switch. Why "sensor"? I think I want to try two variants, first as a conventional mechanical switch and second as a sensor one, by several reasons. Second one is more promising for me 2012-01-27 18:38 (power) I'm currently exploring how hard it is to get power from the 220V grid which is already there 2012-01-27 18:38 good :) 2012-01-27 18:39 power supplies are harder than I thought 2012-01-27 18:39 yes ;-) 2012-01-27 18:39 do you have any experience on that? 2012-01-27 18:39 particularly if you don't have a lot of room and need more than 1-2 mA 2012-01-27 18:39 exactly 2012-01-27 18:39 no. that's why my project didn't move 2012-01-27 18:40 and at the moment, I cannot say that I know how to do it... 2012-01-27 18:40 especially to make it safe and efficient 2012-01-27 18:41 (I'll finish on the device types) Third is an environment sensor. Humidity (to detect bathroom floods), gas, smoke etc. Some of them may very well be self-powered. I am quite sure that with right components and firmware a 3V lithium battery can last for months, if not years 2012-01-27 18:41 what i'm looking for is: 1) user terminal (button, some indicators) 2) triac to switch lamps. must work with CFL. 2012-01-27 18:42 well, I basically want the same 2012-01-27 18:42 the terminals would go where the light switches are. the triacs could either be on the same board (since the cables pass there anyway, most of the time), or go next to the lamps 2012-01-27 18:43 i also want the terminal to be able to alert me when someone presses the doorbell or such 2012-01-27 18:43 yeah 2012-01-27 18:44 (env sensor) yeah, that one can stay passive and maybe just ping the central once a day to indicate that it's still alive 2012-01-27 18:44 yes 2012-01-27 18:44 for phy/mac layer, I'll use 802.15.14 and I hope I find some upper level protocol to not reinvent the wheel 2012-01-27 18:45 the network must be point-to-point 2012-01-27 18:45 if I have two separate nodes with switch and a triac, the switch node should directly turn on the triac 2012-01-27 18:45 not relying on some central server 2012-01-27 18:45 you probably need a mesh. but protocol issues are easy to solve. (well, from my pov :) 2012-01-27 18:46 yes, I don't see that as a hard task 2012-01-27 18:46 just the one which needs to be done right 2012-01-27 18:47 (switch to triac) yup. sitting in the dark when the pc crashes sucks ;-) 2012-01-27 18:47 then, I want a control panel on which I could see the plan of entire network, sensor states, and maybe have more controls on the overall system 2012-01-27 18:47 like "switch to the 'owner absent' mode", etc. 2012-01-27 18:47 you could use a ben for that 2012-01-27 18:48 probably cheaper than building from parts 2012-01-27 18:48 actually, I want to get a device with touchscreen and hang it on a wall 2012-01-27 18:48 cost issues are not that significant for me anymore, as I've found a good job 2012-01-27 18:48 touchscreen is trickier 2012-01-27 18:49 ;-)) 2012-01-27 18:49 I could buy an ipad, if only it wasn't an Apple anal probe 2012-01-27 18:49 some cheap chinese android tablet would work perfectly 2012-01-27 18:49 ditch android and use framebuffer 2012-01-27 18:50 you can find one for less than $100 2012-01-27 18:50 that's cheaper than ben afaik :D 2012-01-27 18:50 (pad < USD 100) hmm, not here :-( 2012-01-27 18:52 http://www.dealextreme.com/p/7-touch-screen-tft-lcd-google-android-1-6-tablet-pc-w-wifi-camera-via-wm8505-arm926-44080 2012-01-27 18:53 it is exceptionally crappy as a tablet, but would work perfectly for this purpose 2012-01-27 18:53 it even has a capacitive sensor display 2012-01-27 18:53 AwAyla [AwAyla!~paul@254.135.123.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 18:54 naw, don't think so. one of the comments says "no multitouch" 2012-01-27 18:55 http://www.dealextreme.com/p/8-touch-screen-lcd-google-android-2-2-tablet-pc-w-wifi-camera-tf-arm-v5-299mhz-71147 2012-01-27 18:55 cap is usually around 2x the price of resistive 2012-01-27 18:55 hm 2012-01-27 18:55 well, maybe 2012-01-27 18:55 I don't need multitouch here anyway, I think 2012-01-27 18:56 yeah, that would be a tad excessive ;-) 2012-01-27 18:58 at last, I want to have a piece software to configure the entire network: generate a config for terminals, OTA firmware for sensors, upload it, etc. I hope to reuse some FOSS SCADA system here, but I'm not sure if that will work. 2012-01-27 18:58 of course, I prefer the whole stack to be as free as possible: only OSS and OSHW. 2012-01-27 18:59 I won't trust some proprietary system to take control of my home 2012-01-27 18:59 \o/ 30 lines of code today, first time in this ugly environment and also first time after 12 months. And only one missing ; then it 'just worked' 2012-01-27 19:01 ;-)) 2012-01-27 19:01 wpwrak: on the hardware part, I think this will work the best: 1) a power supply as a separate block, yet to be found 2) a radio module aka atben with the SD part cut off and replaced by a pinhead 3) a customized mainboard 2012-01-27 19:02 mainboard will be based on STM32. Sorry Arduino fans, STM32 has significantly better power and cost efficiency. 2012-01-27 19:03 I've seen an example when a single low-power STM32V was displaying a counter on monochrome glass LCD display for several hours 2012-01-27 19:03 it was powered by an apple 2012-01-27 19:03 not that cupertino company, but a fruit 2012-01-27 19:03 you know, copper and zinc electrodes 2012-01-27 19:14 (stm32) power doesn't matter. your supply needs to be able to provide a few mA anyway. 2012-01-27 19:14 jekhor [jekhor!~jek@leased-line-46-53-195-130.telecom.by] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 19:15 (rf) once the thing matures, you can also just integrate the RF circuit into your design. 2012-01-27 19:15 the power supply is the tricky bit ;-) 2012-01-27 19:16 also, you probably want to be able to squeeze this into the little boxes in the wall that currently contain the light switches, right ? about 5 x 10 cm 2012-01-27 19:18 mstevens [mstevens!~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 19:20 wpwrak: (power) it does matter for standalone sensors. anyway, STM32 is a vastly better controller than any ATmega. 2012-01-27 19:20 (rf) that can be tricky. I have no equipment to work with RF and it's still too expensive for me AFAIK 2012-01-27 19:21 (little boxes) yes 2012-01-27 19:21 (the power supply) yes. I'll ask a quesion on StackExchange.EE, and I'll try to find a ready one 2012-01-27 19:22 if I could find one that is made with accessible components (no custom transformers, etc.), I think that I can reverse-engineer it. Not sure how sensible is this, through, but at least it may give me some ideas 2012-01-27 19:23 those little boxes are round here 2012-01-27 19:24 here too 2012-01-27 19:26 the RF module is very small. STM32's are also not known for their large cases. power supply is the worst part 2012-01-27 19:29 yes, power and shielding effects should be the worst bits 2012-01-27 19:41 I wonder what maximal current do we need 2012-01-27 19:41 certainly no more than 50mA 2012-01-27 19:41 @3.3V 2012-01-27 19:42 5mA should be enough for CPU; RF part is in range of 12mA if I remember that correctly 2012-01-27 19:42 there is also SSR and leds 2012-01-27 20:09 B_Lizzard [B_Lizzard!~havoc@athedsl-428276.home.otenet.gr] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 20:09 whitequark: vastly better depends on what you wanna do. 2012-01-27 20:13 e.g. if you need precise bitbang timing, arm usually is worse than avr due to a muxed io bus (no full cpu core speed io possible on arm) 2012-01-27 20:16 so there is no 'cpu a is better than cpu b'. it _always_ depends on the specific usecase what is more reasonable and what not. 2012-01-27 20:21 hey that's why we work on Milkymist 2012-01-27 20:22 because I fully agree with roh, and in all the thousands of exciting embedded computing products we will want to have in the future, it will only be true even more 2012-01-27 20:22 you pick a CPU for a project, you start working, and inevitable one day will be the 'big oh day' 2012-01-27 20:23 then it gets interesting :-) 2012-01-27 20:23 hey wolfspra1 2012-01-27 20:23 l 2012-01-27 20:23 ;-) 2012-01-27 20:24 hi! 2012-01-27 20:42 roh: hm, interesting 2012-01-27 20:43 anyway, I only meant "vastly" in the context of this project, and not as a general statement 2012-01-27 20:44 * roh doesnt like generalisations on technology. there is always 'the right kind' for 'the right problem' .. but not one tech. which is solves all kinds of problems. 2012-01-27 20:44 (milkymist) and you'll never get a custom PWM that's as precise as one you synthesize in an FPGA ;-) 2012-01-27 20:45 (through I do think that they are generally better than AVRs in most of the cases where AVRs are used, _if_ you ignore: a) compatibility b) absence of ARMs in DIP c) as you've noted, precise bitbanging d) maybe more, but not much.) 2012-01-27 20:45 (besides, best of luck finding a device with a combined pwm and led matrix controller :) 2012-01-27 20:45 i dont like arm because the io is usually much more crappy 2012-01-27 20:45 define "io" ? 2012-01-27 20:45 i really like the avr io banks. 2012-01-27 20:45 io. gpio, usarts, etc.. everything NOT a cpu core 2012-01-27 20:46 well, then you should definitely take a look at stm32 2012-01-27 20:46 arm has _really_ crappy ones. 2012-01-27 20:46 also stm. 2012-01-27 20:46 hm 2012-01-27 20:46 stm sucks even more when it comes to pricing and packages. 2012-01-27 20:46 what do you not like in STM IO? 2012-01-27 20:47 i usually use arm when its 'grown up'., means arm9, arm11 cores WITH mmu. 2012-01-27 20:47 if i dont need an mmu, i dont need a such fast cpu usually. 2012-01-27 20:48 Greer [Greer!~greer@gateway/tor-sasl/greer] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-27 20:48 (pricing) I'm not sure about %countrynamehere%, but here in Russia I know a real company which assembles, locally, atmega-based devices. And Atmel pricing sucks a whole lot compared to STM in practically every place you can get both kinds of controllers here. 2012-01-27 20:48 like 3 times more 2012-01-27 20:48 means i use arm when i need a full fledged os and i can run linux on the cpu. smaller stuff i usually always solve with avr stuff.. 2012-01-27 20:49 pigs seem to be pretty cheap. if you can stand the smell :) 2012-01-27 20:49 wpwrak: do you hate STM too? 2012-01-27 20:49 around here a phillips i2c io expander is more expensive than a avr cpu which can do the same and much more. 2012-01-27 20:49 i haev no opinion on STM. haven't looked at them for a while 2012-01-27 20:49 so guess what people use to get more gpio from i2c? not a pcfxxx chip 2012-01-27 20:49 roh: I still want to hear what's so wrong with stm ios 2012-01-27 20:50 wpwrak: well.. same as the lpc stuff.. boring small arm cpus with 'another io paradigm again' 2012-01-27 20:50 ARMs used to have overly picky power supply requirements. but maybe this has changed. 2012-01-27 20:50 because I worked with both stms and atmels, and I don't quite understand your point 2012-01-27 20:50 whitequark: whats wrong? with arm? usually the manufacturer mostly. even atmel fails on arm. 2012-01-27 20:51 e.g. initial bootloader. its a _mess_ 2012-01-27 20:51 wpwrak: (arms) atmels can work with 12V Vcc, heating like an iron. I don't really need that modus operandi, so again, I'm fine with stm 2012-01-27 20:51 fwiw, i'm not too fond of avr either. too many legacy quirks for my taste. 2012-01-27 20:51 roh: not generally with ARM, of course. LPCxxxx's are quite crappy 2012-01-27 20:51 roh: I want to know what's particularly wrong with STM compared to atmels. 2012-01-27 20:52 regardless if you look at SAM-BA, broken dfu implementations, crappy shit emulating fat-fs on usb on lpc or whatever. 2012-01-27 20:52 whitequark: i was more thinking of variable supplies like a battery 2012-01-27 20:52 whitequark: i havent seen a single decent small arm cpu. 2012-01-27 20:52 and i have them all around. 2012-01-27 20:52 whitequark: and many arms even need separate core and i/o. but again, maybe they fixed this for the embedded ones. 2012-01-27 20:53 wpwrak: stm32f only needs a single 3.3v supply 2012-01-27 20:53 roh: all that looks like software problems :) 2012-01-27 20:53 whitequark: does it have to be exactly 3.3 V ? or can it be, say, 5 V ? 2012-01-27 20:53 the 'magic' of avr is their extemely good io, and that they are extremely easy to get up and running (in sw as well hw). 2012-01-27 20:54 roh: if you have problems with that, just write your own bootloader. you'd do that on AVR anyway. 2012-01-27 20:54 wpwrak: no. it would be sw but the arm bootloaders are in a ROM page they map into their memory on boot depending on the bootmode pins 2012-01-27 20:54 whitequark: people do that. i just use cpus which NOT make me puke on trying to boot. 2012-01-27 20:54 wpwrak: it works on 2.0 to 3.6V 2012-01-27 20:54 i think their magic is that they have a decent free toolchain ... and that they're popular ;-) 2012-01-27 20:55 wpwrak: that too. 2012-01-27 20:55 without gcc you basically cannot sell a mcu. 2012-01-27 20:55 ah.. and 5V tolerance is a must for some projects. 2012-01-27 20:55 well, sdcc is an option ... it's tolerable 2012-01-27 20:55 roh: (gcc) of course that's why we have billions of PIC8 in the world. wait, pic8 has no gcc. 2012-01-27 20:56 roh, wpwrak: almost all I/Os are 5V tolerant 2012-01-27 20:56 whitequark: i am not talking about boring industry projects. i am talking about creative people like here. 2012-01-27 20:56 whitequark: 2.0 V is good. that means that you can probably use CR2032 cells 2012-01-27 20:56 whitequark: just stop argumenting. you cannot persuade people that way. 2012-01-27 20:57 roh: you sound like a troll, actually 2012-01-27 20:57 a bad bootloader is definitely a reason not to use a particular chip, yes 2012-01-27 20:57 knives ! we need knives ! :) 2012-01-27 20:57 and apart from that you have not mentioned any facts. 2012-01-27 20:58 whitequark: i do electronics for >15 years now. i speak from experience. and the latter isnt always nice. 2012-01-27 20:58 and, through that may sound strange, I'm still interested in what do you say. For example, I will recall your words about bitbanging when I'll encounter it 2012-01-27 20:58 sure 2012-01-27 20:59 then, can you say what exactly is wrong with the io? 2012-01-27 20:59 I'm genuinely interested 2012-01-27 20:59 whitequark: well.. i am not interrested in aguing with you. 2012-01-27 20:59 and mostly: arm io is muxed. so i CAN NOT wiggle pins on 1/2 cpuclock like i can do on a avr. 2012-01-27 21:00 and thats only one thing. 2012-01-27 21:00 on ti or lpc arm i dont like the register layout because its annoying to program simple stuff with it and has lots of side-effects (and or masking which eats cycles) 2012-01-27 21:00 yeah, you've already said that, and I never argued with that. any others? 2012-01-27 21:01 some machines have registers for bitwise operations.. which suck again if you need some bits switching sync. which is NOT POSSIBLE on muxed/banked io. 2012-01-27 21:01 means .. arm CAN NOT do some of the stuff i do a lot with avr chips very easily 2012-01-27 21:02 the completely broken bootloader situation is the next thing. 2012-01-27 21:03 then you usually need multiple voltages, external clocks, complex pll boot procedures and bad documented details to get stuff working even if you get code executing... why? because manufs are really braindead when it comes to documentation and open tools. 2012-01-27 21:04 when i need to use a different tool to flash 2 different arm cpus from the same manuf. that manuf FAILED. 2012-01-27 21:05 roh: btw, i have my doubts about your bit-banging argument. remember that i even got reasonably precise video out of MIPS, with caches, mmu, etc. ? i doubt arm is worse. and yes, you have to work harder than on an avr to get this right. but that's the cost of having a fast cpu. 2012-01-27 21:05 and that i cannot switch code from one arm cpu to another easily because every manuf used different io blocks. thats just plain stupid and breaks all portability. 2012-01-27 21:06 wpwrak: arm only works when you run it at siginificantly higher clocks than avr. 2012-01-27 21:06 roh: you cannot switch several bits with one I/O instruction on AVR without explicit read-modify-write 2012-01-27 21:07 which is what you have anyway. of course, if the clock was as slow as avr, all the things needed for optimizing speed would just be obstacles 2012-01-27 21:07 whitequark: i can do a read-modify-write in the same time an arm on the same clock does half that on banked io. 2012-01-27 21:07 roh: can't you just load your own boot loader into your SAM ? 2012-01-27 21:07 wpwrak: yes and no. 2012-01-27 21:08 the romloader is rom. 2012-01-27 21:08 nothing to flash there 2012-01-27 21:08 and you cannot implement bootloader-like functionality in flash ? 2012-01-27 21:08 only if you have a part with internal flash 2012-01-27 21:08 that's just the same on avr 2012-01-27 21:09 internal flash would seem the norm in this class of devices 2012-01-27 21:09 whitequark: true. but there you get fucking working tools. not broken garbage from the manuf. 2012-01-27 21:09 wpwrak: some try using serial flash now. also sdcards etc. 2012-01-27 21:09 roh: are you using an atmel-provided DFU on avr ? 2012-01-27 21:09 and booting from such stuff works by romloader 2012-01-27 21:10 wpwrak: no. i do not use usb usually. 2012-01-27 21:10 very few of my devices get usb ports at all. 2012-01-27 21:10 roh: which avr do you use that has no internal flash and boots from external serial flash ? 2012-01-27 21:10 so why do you need DFU then, if you don't have USB ? 2012-01-27 21:10 all avr have internal flash. i was talking about arm stuff. 2012-01-27 21:11 wpwrak: when i get forced to use a proprietary mode via serial or usb by a manuf, i rather like a standard way like dfu. 2012-01-27 21:11 for devices where you use an avr, would there be only arm-based choices that require external flash ? 2012-01-27 21:11 on avr nobody forces me to use the serial or usb. i an happily develop via isp 2012-01-27 21:11 isp seems to be out of the arm comfort zone nowadays... 2012-01-27 21:11 do the SAMs have no other way of flashing than USB ? 2012-01-27 21:12 its either fully blown jtag with endless pins, or broken loaders. 2012-01-27 21:12 i've heard of something called JTAG 2012-01-27 21:12 yeah :) 2012-01-27 21:12 roh: if you do not want to look at stm32 due to your belief or anything, then fine. I have actually used chips from these series. I co-authored a FOSS flashing tool for the entire line. It does not need multiple voltages, it has internal oscillator, its PLL init is not complex and well-documented, and the docs are roughly the same quality as for AVRs. I'm curious about the real details of bitbanging stuff, so I will look into that and pos 2012-01-27 21:13 documentation is mostly only explaining the broken serial or usb loaders. not jtag, not speaking of working gpl toolchains to do jtag properly with affordable tools NOT supplied from the mcu vendor 2012-01-27 21:13 (flashing tool) this "flashing tool" is an in-circuit debugger, which (also) supports flashing through gdb. 2012-01-27 21:13 all FOSS, and not broken. 2012-01-27 21:13 whitequark: your line got truncated by the evil ircd... 2012-01-27 21:13 roh: i guess we'll have to wait and see what happens when whitequark hits the point of wanting to load his first hello.c :) 2012-01-27 21:14 whitequark: the point is: i am happy with avr for what i do with avr. when its 'a bigger task than the avr can handle' then one can use 2 or more avr very easily. for anything which needs a display or networking i just use a fully blown linux on a grown up arm cpu. 2012-01-27 21:14 whitequark: i dont see avr as 'mcu' only anymore. its 'programmable io part' for me. 2012-01-27 21:14 wpwrak: http://github.com/whitequark/stlink. go ahead with your sarcasm. 2012-01-27 21:15 i do keyboard debouncing and preprocessing on there if neccessary. leaving the memory load heavy stuff to a real arm cpu. 2012-01-27 21:16 if you ask me. arm7 isnt needed anymore. 2012-01-27 21:16 roh: your approach works well until you want to make an UAV (an actual task I've attempted). you either need to stack avrs one on another, or just use a chip with hw multiplier and fast 32-bit arithmetics. 2012-01-27 21:16 and stm32 is cortex-m3 and not arm7. 2012-01-27 21:16 whitequark: a uav has more than one cpu core and not only a simple arm7 2012-01-27 21:17 or cortex m3 2012-01-27 21:17 from my pov thats not an improvement 2012-01-27 21:17 cortex m is the same as arm7 to me. not better. just new name. marketing. 2012-01-27 21:18 lindi-_: thanks 2012-01-27 21:18 that line was truncated. <...> I'm curious about the real details of bitbanging stuff, so I will look into that and post the actual result. I have not looked into serial bootloader, SWD and JTAG are standard interfaces where you have FOSS tools to work with the chip, so I won't comment on the internal boot either. SWD is 2-wire by the way. 2012-01-27 21:19 whitequark: so.. thanks for the links, but you CAN NOT win this by argument, simply because there is nothing to win. 2012-01-27 21:19 the mcu market IS full of 'duplicated usecases' 2012-01-27 21:20 and cortex Mx has to fight against avr. i dont need to have one win over the other. 2012-01-27 21:20 avr was there before and i know it quite well and whats possible with it and what not. THATS the real gain. its like the 8086 for the mcu possie. 2012-01-27 21:21 when we get up to processing power demands of avr32 or cortexA8, A9, the picture changes. 2012-01-27 21:21 I'm not trying to convince you that STM32 is better than AVRs (through I do state that myself), but I can't stand to see someone saying clearly false statements. (Yes, that whole "someone in internet is wrong" thing). 2012-01-27 21:21 that reminds me, can you suggest any good software for using JTAG and ARM? I've used only openocd and it seems somewhat unfinished 2012-01-27 21:21 then it may be more feasible to use an arm cpu (as i would) 2012-01-27 21:22 maybe I'd need to configure it more or something 2012-01-27 21:22 but for example it can not read physical addresses if MMU is enabled 2012-01-27 21:22 whitequark: i am not saing one is better than the other. i am saying that there is more than 'i got the same features 10 years late, please all switch to arm now' 2012-01-27 21:22 avr killed the pic for the most part of the market here. remember that. 2012-01-27 21:22 (sorry to hijack the thread so to speak..) 2012-01-27 21:23 lindi-_: openocd is it. 2012-01-27 21:23 roh: (avr killed pic) for good 2012-01-27 21:23 I heard different things about pic, through. I.e. that it still is in every small consumer device like tv remotes or car keys. Not sure about that. 2012-01-27 21:24 lindi-_: for jtag in general, i find urjtag considerably better than openocd. but i don't know it implements the specific features you need. 2012-01-27 21:24 whitequark: pics are nowadays nearly extinct 2012-01-27 21:24 whitequark: atleast compared to avr, small arm and 8051 cores 2012-01-27 21:24 the latter ones having the majority afaik 2012-01-27 21:24 roh: nice to hear that. that's an arch worse than 8086. 2012-01-27 21:25 8051 i really not like. 2012-01-27 21:25 I was unfortunate enough to begin my mcu programming experiments with pic. it was awful. 2012-01-27 21:25 but its really cheap and chinese companies use it afaik without any licensing 2012-01-27 21:25 roh: pics exinct ? you wish :) 2012-01-27 21:25 wpwrak: for the majority of stuff.. yes. i see >8 avrs for one pic 2012-01-27 21:25 and about a dozend 8051 2012-01-27 21:26 thats the ratio in commodity hw 2012-01-27 21:26 every usb device usually has atleast one 8051 2012-01-27 21:26 yeah, 8051 still rule the world :) 2012-01-27 21:26 roh: I'm not "everyone switch to ARMs now!!111", but more "let's not ignore cortex-m3 where it's better than avr." anyway. 2012-01-27 21:27 wpwrak: currently debugging openmoko suspend issue 2012-01-27 21:27 roh: how do you determine which cores are present in commodity hw? if we mean those small consumer devices with epoxy blobs and so on 2012-01-27 21:27 I suppose that by 8051s in USB HW you mean Cypress chips, right? 2012-01-27 21:27 whitequark: the reason i seems ignored is that its difficult to learn about mcu when you get confused by manufs all the time 2012-01-27 21:27 ther is just no continuity in arm mcu. 2012-01-27 21:27 wpwrak: http://lindi.iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/crash/README seems to be a useful approach but it doesn't give me registers so I need to use JTAG too 2012-01-27 21:28