2012-01-25 00:07 TESTING 2012-01-25 00:07 the keyboard patches caused quite a stir on the list 2012-01-25 00:07 I cannot immediately respond to this now 2012-01-25 00:07 seems all sorts of conflicts there :-) 2012-01-25 00:08 keyboard patches ? looking ... 2012-01-25 00:08 some people have no time, wish they had more, push feature-adoption to infinity, etc. 2012-01-25 00:08 I will just wait a little and uptick again - it's easier now 2012-01-25 00:08 the KiCad core team first has to sort out some internal things 2012-01-25 00:09 what Wayne had responded with initially would have made any politician proud 2012-01-25 00:09 I think for now the patches will be moving nowhere 2012-01-25 00:10 nice reaction by Hoteev Sergey ;-) 2012-01-25 00:10 "It is FUTURE!" :) 2012-01-25 00:10 yeah but there seem to be serious conflicts internally 2012-01-25 00:10 that would also explain the inconsistent renames I'm seeing 2012-01-25 00:11 (wayne) you mean the reply from last year ? 2012-01-25 00:11 and that separation vaguely described there will never happen, I don't even need to ask for specifics because it's obvious they just want to make the issue go away 2012-01-25 00:11 no, the new stuff 2012-01-25 00:12 some people seem to have too much time/commitment to officially call it quits, yet too little to make solid changes 2012-01-25 00:12 hmm, don't see it in the thread 2012-01-25 00:12 and they cannot decide which way to go ;-) 2012-01-25 00:12 which subject ? 2012-01-25 00:12 Jan 20, same subject 2012-01-25 00:13 "I apologize for not responding sooner" (not really needed when I needed a year to respond :-)) 2012-01-25 00:13 ah, he broke the thread 2012-01-25 00:13 "hold off until we separate the underlying object code from the UI code and implement it as a DLL/SO" 2012-01-25 00:13 that must be from the "how can I talk my dumb manager into leaving me alone hacking" seminar 2012-01-25 00:14 later in the thread he admits that that magic "separation" is at least 1 year out 2012-01-25 00:14 "at least" :-) 2012-01-25 00:14 yeah 2012-01-25 00:14 "It is at best a year out." ;-) 2012-01-25 00:14 yeah 2012-01-25 00:14 I could restructure the patches in many ways, but there is no guidance/leadership at this moment. 2012-01-25 00:15 yet the magic 'separation' will still not fall from the sky... 2012-01-25 00:15 so I plan to do nothing right now 2012-01-25 00:15 uplevel once in a while 2012-01-25 00:16 yeah, that may be the best approach 2012-01-25 00:16 it's a bit worrisome at least the way Wayne describes it that the "other lead developers" (all?) seem to all want to push this out a year or more? 2012-01-25 00:17 there's a lot of things they plan to change. e.g., the board file format. that's been pending for well over a year as well 2012-01-25 00:17 that could make someone think KiCad development has haltet... 2012-01-25 00:17 halted 2012-01-25 00:17 yes but maybe all those things are actually in "x years" status 2012-01-25 00:17 makes me proud of the Ben NanoNote :-) 2012-01-25 00:17 i guess if people get too restless, a fork may happen at some point in time 2012-01-25 00:17 it cannot survive a fork, because there is already geda 2012-01-25 00:18 the footprint library is in abysmal state 2012-01-25 00:18 so far, it hasn't, but there's been noises several times already 2012-01-25 00:18 oh, i don't see a problem with a fork, as long as there are people who are motivated to keep it going 2012-01-25 00:18 I think the osmo-sdr guys switched from kicad to geda because of better scriptability somewhere, but I think it was inside the design (not sure). 2012-01-25 00:18 yeah, but this is too distracting for me 2012-01-25 00:19 so I can only uplevel, a bit more regularly than before 2012-01-25 00:19 I can't get into the kicad thing now 2012-01-25 00:19 (distracting) we can just wait and see. if someone forks and doesn't fall over his or her own feet too quickly, we can join the new crowd 2012-01-25 00:20 well yeah, but this needs an active developer base of multiple people really intensively hacking on 2012-01-25 00:20 at least 2012-01-25 00:21 i guess it needs people who can really sink 100% of their time into it 2012-01-25 00:21 yes 2012-01-25 00:21 isn't it funny how he describes the 'separation'? 2012-01-25 00:21 and that is after a talk with other lead devs? 2012-01-25 00:21 what separation? 2012-01-25 00:21 for dick, wayne, etc., it's basically a weekend project 2012-01-25 00:21 a bunch of C++ classes directly through the dynamic library? 2012-01-25 00:21 and then - which ones? 2012-01-25 00:22 the GUI classes? 2012-01-25 00:22 the entire current code structure doesn't lean itself towards any kind of 'separation' 2012-01-25 00:22 it's just handwaving really 2012-01-25 00:22 "please go away and don't ask us details. and come back as late as possible" 2012-01-25 00:23 actually I think the current code structure is not bad, I would just leave it like that and gradually cleanup further 2012-01-25 00:23 i think they want to separate the data model better from the GUI. right now, it's all mixed together 2012-01-25 00:23 but the separation as it is described there will never happen, 100% wishful thinking 2012-01-25 00:24 of course, whether a cleaner separation really improves things in the end also remains to be seen 2012-01-25 00:24 sure, but they haven't gotten beyond the "we should really have this" level 2012-01-25 00:24 yes 2012-01-25 00:24 because that's a quite well known problem 2012-01-25 00:24 sometimes, a hundred ugly lines are better than five million beautifully structured ones 2012-01-25 00:24 sure 2012-01-25 00:24 but there is nothing I can do, really. just uplevel. 2012-01-25 00:24 the patches will stay outside. 2012-01-25 00:25 yeah. we can try to piss them off a little. make them feel their control might slip if they don't integrate those features :) 2012-01-25 00:26 well, a few of the responses already went in this direction ;-) 2012-01-25 00:26 it's a design program, so the focus will always be GUI 2012-01-25 00:26 yes and no. there is a deeper layer that's not GUI-centric 2012-01-25 00:26 if the focus is completely scripted, one could write an entirely separate engine that directly modifies the files 2012-01-25 00:26 ok I'm just starting to think for them 2012-01-25 00:27 yes. that's what we currently do. and i don't mind doing that. 2012-01-25 00:27 so if the main focus of Kicad is to be a (manual) design program, then naturally it's ok that a few command-line options are being 'inserted' into the otherwise integrated codes, as the patches are doing 2012-01-25 00:27 we could cleanup that 'insertion' to a really nice level 2012-01-25 00:27 the files are not extremely pretty but i've worked with worse 2012-01-25 00:27 like I said, if the focus of the entire binary is 90% manual visual editing, and 10% at most some (few) extracted codepaths accessible via command line, then that is just fine 2012-01-25 00:28 the cmdline gives you access to maybe 1% of what kicad can do in the GUI 2012-01-25 00:28 yes, the problem of the command-line patches is that they try to reuse a lot of what kicad has. that's why there's a conflicht 2012-01-25 00:28 that's not a problem, that's by design 2012-01-25 00:28 e.g., fped just ignores all the kicad code base 2012-01-25 00:28 the command line options just auto-execute the GUI for you 2012-01-25 00:28 oh sure, that's a separate tool 2012-01-25 00:29 yes, but it's that design property that creates the conflict for the command-line patches, while i can dodge that with fped. 2012-01-25 00:29 actually the patches are quite clean 2012-01-25 00:29 there's a global, and some ugliness in some dialogs, but these things could all be cleaned up easily 2012-01-25 00:29 without waiting for a separation that will never happen 2012-01-25 00:30 but like I said, I will do nothing 2012-01-25 00:30 just uplevel 2012-01-25 00:30 not my battle 2012-01-25 00:30 naw, their problems seems to be that you talk to their old code, while they'd wish you to talk to their new code instead 2012-01-25 00:30 new code? 2012-01-25 00:30 alas, the lack of a time machine makes itself noticed once more ... 2012-01-25 00:30 ah, ok 2012-01-25 00:30 yes 2012-01-25 00:30 that separatoin is really nonsense 2012-01-25 00:31 it will not happen 2012-01-25 00:31 it may not be nonsense 2012-01-25 00:31 that's a possibility 2012-01-25 00:31 well then it's already there 2012-01-25 00:31 they have it all nicely in dialog classes 2012-01-25 00:31 it's all fine 2012-01-25 00:31 it's a GUI app 2012-01-25 00:32 sure they could move non-gui stuff in one corner, and gui stuff in another corner - but that is already happening 2012-01-25 00:32 any practical insertion of a few cmdline switches would still go right through this 2012-01-25 00:34 sure. it's just mismatched perfectionism. 2012-01-25 00:34 the argument would be perfectly valid if they'd be working on a massive redesign that's to be completed soon. but there's no "soon" in there. 2012-01-25 00:36 maybe they're just old and slow ;-) clone sebastien, run a global FPGA to EDA substitute on the clone, and then let him loose on kicad, and we'll have a fork that outperforms all our wishes in a few weeks ;-) 2012-01-25 00:37 anyway, i agree with your conclusion that upleveling is the best we can do at the moment 2012-01-25 00:37 just outsitting it doesn't work, because changes are happening in the code base 2012-01-25 00:38 but the future perfect code isn't a realistic target either. i.e., you can't do anything today to make your patches work with that 2012-01-25 00:40 it's also good to have the functionality around, so that people can get a taste of what it is like 2012-01-25 01:09 freespace [freespace!foobar@85.203.232.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 01:42 Pete Ippel ‽: RT @qihardware: Raspberry Pi Founder Eben Upton Walks You Through the Launch of the $35 Computer http://t.co/MhbYBLU8 @Fabricatorz ( 161986940202254336@hypermodern - 51s ago via HootSuite ) 2012-01-25 01:55 wow i see now why other people uses geda :) 2012-01-25 01:55 better i dint tried learn kicad yet :) 2012-01-25 01:57 good that geda have its BOM :) 2012-01-25 02:34 Ayla [Ayla!~paul@178.53.192.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 03:39 hmm ? what did you see ? and what BOM ? 2012-01-25 04:32 Jon Phillips: Via @qihardware qihardware: Raspberry Pi Founder Eben Upton Walks You Through the Launch of the $35 Computer http://... http://t.co/mIOdtCuB ( 162029771742650368@rejon - 39s ago via Ping.fm ) 2012-01-25 04:42 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 04:43 emeb [emeb!~ericb@ip72-223-81-94.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [#qi-hardware] 2012-01-25 05:26 paroneayea [paroneayea!~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 05:35 wpwrak: kicad broke ??I ? 2012-01-25 05:36 rather [A-Z]{1;2}I 2012-01-25 05:37 IE API|ABI|UI|GUI|... 2012-01-25 05:37 CLI 2012-01-25 05:39 paroneayea [paroneayea!~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 05:52 paroneayea [paroneayea!~user@fsf/member/paroneayea] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 06:50 jekhor [jekhor!~jek@vulture-nat-32.telecom.by] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 07:35 jluis [jluis!~jpddb@83.247.136.72] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 07:44 jirkab [jirkab!~jirkab@pclph406g.vsb.cz] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 08:01 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 08:17 viric [viric!~viric@117.235.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 08:17 viric [viric!~viric@unaffiliated/viric] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 08:17 viric [viric!~viric@unaffiliated/viric] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 08:21 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 08:37 wej [wej!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 08:42 rejon [rejon!~rejon@li382-141.members.linode.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 08:55 DocScrutinizer [DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg] has joined #qi-hardware 2012-01-25 10:23 jekhor [jekhor!~jek@mx2.promwad.com] has joined #qi-hardware