2011-12-11 00:10 akiwidroid [akiwidroid!~akiwiguy_@33.39.227.49.dyn.cust.vf.net.nz] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 01:11 wpwrak, what are you adding to m1? 2011-12-11 01:11 a new compiler? 2011-12-11 01:12 i'm restructuring the existing one 2011-12-11 01:13 its a thing of beauty to see new code coming in 2011-12-11 01:13 so thorough 2011-12-11 01:13 inspiring 2011-12-11 01:14 it used to be split in a very inconvenient way, with part handling the parsing of lines and a separate part parsing the content of the lines 2011-12-11 01:14 (roughly) 2011-12-11 01:14 hehe ;-) 2011-12-11 01:15 what's interesting is that i also found a few bugs in the patches. e.g., the altars of madness now twist and turn. they look a lot madder now ;-) 2011-12-11 01:16 cool 2011-12-11 01:16 great if this accelerates compiling time 2011-12-11 01:16 esp. when you have to compile in front of people who invented compilers 2011-12-11 01:17 ;-)) 2011-12-11 01:17 Hi gordon bell in the audience 2011-12-11 01:17 Alan Kay was sick that day 2011-12-11 01:17 but i think your problem as just the large number of images 2011-12-11 01:17 s/as/was/ 2011-12-11 01:17 wpwrak meant: "but i think your problem was just the large number of images" 2011-12-11 01:18 regarding compile time, there isn't a lot left to squeeze out. maybe another 10%, but then we're at the limit. 2011-12-11 01:18 But, everytime you click "Go" the m1 compiles the patches 2011-12-11 01:19 yes 2011-12-11 01:19 wonder if there can be a check if there is a need to even compile again 2011-12-11 01:19 we could try caching, yes 2011-12-11 01:20 another issue is that it's too easy to fall out of performance mode. if you have a mouse connected, this is pretty much guaranteed to happen the sooner or the later 2011-12-11 01:20 yes 2011-12-11 01:20 this is what happened to me 2011-12-11 01:20 really embarrasing 2011-12-11 01:21 soooo, I went into presentation mode where I had it left off, running the animated logo, and instead, milkymist admin interface 2011-12-11 01:21 that's what you get for abusing your M1 for something as mundane as slide shows ;-) 2011-12-11 01:21 wpwrak, i animated all the slides 2011-12-11 01:21 i mean added effects 2011-12-11 01:21 wow 2011-12-11 01:21 just subtle 2011-12-11 01:22 you owe us a video :) 2011-12-11 01:22 I agree, I set it up first to do the mundane, but A.) it looked like dogshit at that resolution B.) felt like an atrocity 2011-12-11 01:22 wpwrak, yah, that event was on lockdown 2011-12-11 01:22 i'll try to get one out here now 2011-12-11 01:22 i can do an update 2011-12-11 01:23 The most helpful will be one big ass button that just advances to the next patch in perf. mode 2011-12-11 01:23 anyway, with the ability to set a button to just advance slides 2011-12-11 01:23 then, I will feel comfortable using my m1 now all the time for presentations 2011-12-11 01:23 great to get image resolution up too 2011-12-11 01:24 but, its great to be able to show images, and then have live patches in between rather than screenshots 2011-12-11 01:24 how about the prev/next buttons ? don't they work in performance mode ? 2011-12-11 01:24 (resolution) i wouldn't get up my hopes too high regarding that. once the color depth is increased, we're pretty much at the end of that memory bandwidth 2011-12-11 01:25 wpwrak, one button maps to one patch 2011-12-11 01:25 need ir and/or keyboard buttons to map to actions too 2011-12-11 01:25 also the buttons on the M1 case ? 2011-12-11 01:26 not sure 2011-12-11 01:26 didn't try 2011-12-11 01:26 only the IR remote 2011-12-11 01:26 on this use 2011-12-11 01:26 ideal too 2011-12-11 01:26 brb 2011-12-11 01:26 aah, i see. that may not work perfectly 2011-12-11 01:27 (haven't tried IR yet) 2011-12-11 01:38 pabs3 [pabs3!~pabs@d122-109-122-89.per801.wa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 01:58 cool whitequark you rock 2011-12-11 01:59 whitequark 2011-12-11 02:00 qwebirc49851 [qwebirc49851!4766dbba@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.102.219.186] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 02:15 freakazoid0223 [freakazoid0223!~matt@pool-173-49-209-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 02:35 freakazoid0223 [freakazoid0223!~matt@pool-173-49-209-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 2011-12-11 03:31 rzk [rzk!~rzk@93-80-178-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 03:35 panda|x201 [panda|x201!~hzhang@123.116.117.186] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 04:08 wolfspraul [wolfspraul!~wolfsprau@p5B0AAF27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 04:59 pabs3 [pabs3!~pabs@d122-109-122-89.per801.wa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 05:08 pabs3 [pabs3!~pabs@d175-38-185-169.per801.wa.optusnet.com.au] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 05:09 Ayla [Ayla!~paul@108.121.101.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 05:35 DocScrutinizer [DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 06:54 Ayla [Ayla!~paul@46.94.102.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 07:34 kudkudyak [kudkudyak!~sun@94.72.162.240] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 07:46 liuxj [liuxj!~liuxj@112.2.254.64] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 07:46 liuxj [liuxj!~liuxj@112.2.254.64] has quit [#qi-hardware] 2011-12-11 08:10 I'm curious if RoHS solder reacts differently to temperature swings 2011-12-11 08:10 e.g. do BGA balls crack? 2011-12-11 08:31 jekhor [jekhor!~jek@vulture-nat-34.telecom.by] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 08:44 Ayla [Ayla!~paul@46.94.102.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 08:54 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 08:56 rzk [rzk!~rzk@93-80-178-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 09:42 wejp [wejp!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 11:08 kilae [kilae!~chatzilla@catv-161-018.tbwil.ch] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 11:17 B_Lizzard [B_Lizzard!~havoc@athedsl-118826.home.otenet.gr] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 11:43 xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 11:59 and by "temperature swings" I mean the ones at transportation 2011-12-11 11:59 i.e. +50..-20 2011-12-11 12:02 ... simultaneously at the different sides of the box. 2011-12-11 12:02 you never know those paths in hell Russian Post goes through. 2011-12-11 12:03 on the serious side, I'm still interested. I think it's more 0..+30, somewhat like that 2011-12-11 12:03 and the board arrived with one or more of its balls broken 2011-12-11 12:03 at least, when you press on the chip, TFT synchro begins to work correctly 2011-12-11 12:03 *on the CPU 2011-12-11 12:11 on the other hand, the board was laid out by some random student 2011-12-11 12:11 and assembled by a greedy idiot who (not a joke) omits a different combination of bypass caps at each next batch 2011-12-11 12:12 maybe that guy was greedy, or you were stingy in not paying adequately :-) 2011-12-11 12:12 that's not my board 2011-12-11 12:12 whoever paid 2011-12-11 12:12 but I've been asked to investigate why it does not work correctly 2011-12-11 12:12 yes 2011-12-11 12:12 I've seen the latter all too often 2011-12-11 12:13 someone first wanting to pay some ridiculous money, like for an icecream in a park, and then whining around about lousy quality 2011-12-11 12:13 they are a "developer kit", not custom ones 2011-12-11 12:13 they're cheap, through, it's true 2011-12-11 12:13 always makes me wonder, but I just smile nowadays and move on 2011-12-11 12:14 you get what you pay for, right? :-) 2011-12-11 12:14 wolfspraul: how's germany ? still everything where you left it ? 2011-12-11 12:14 yes pretty much 2011-12-11 12:18 good ;) 2011-12-11 12:19 urandom__ [urandom__!~user@p548A3A04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 12:19 wolfspraul: I wonder where you can get a $150 icecream. I get your idea, through :) 2011-12-11 12:39 wolfspra1l [wolfspra1l!~wolfsprau@p5B0AEFC6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 12:54 whitequark: there are probably even places where you can even get a 1k$ icecream ;) 2011-12-11 12:56 lars_: got some preferred ice cream parlor in the emirates ? 2011-12-11 13:00 wpwrak: i'm trying to cut down these days ;) 2011-12-11 13:45 zedstar_ [zedstar_!~john@cpc3-haye16-2-0-cust189.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 13:54 wolfspra1l: hey, you're in Germany? 2011-12-11 13:55 DocScrutinizer: his ip would suggest so 2011-12-11 13:55 I stpped looking at IPs, usually you get fooled by them 2011-12-11 13:56 t-dialin is deutsche telekom 2011-12-11 13:56 yep 2011-12-11 13:58 yes, IP spies 2011-12-11 14:00 wow you can still get C1xx phones, amazing 2011-12-11 14:04 kristianpaul: that ones with hacked bp? 2011-12-11 14:04 Region Schmelz, next Luxembourg 2011-12-11 14:05 kristianpaul: which iirc you can use to take down any gsm cell in a moment 2011-12-11 14:05 * kristianpaul dont know nothing about GSM standards 2011-12-11 14:06 wolfspra1l: obviously quite a bit away from my location 2011-12-11 14:06 if the IP location services are right 2011-12-11 14:09 whitequark: i just get the info from this mail, very inspiring tought :) http://lists.osmocom.org/pipermail/baseband-devel/2011-December/002507.html 2011-12-11 14:11 I read it too 2011-12-11 14:16 very good indeed 2011-12-11 14:17 wow 2011-12-11 14:17 harald for president ;-D 2011-12-11 14:18 :) 2011-12-11 14:18 I always wonder how this guy manages to earn his momey, jet around all the world, and still find time to do all those amazing things 2011-12-11 14:18 money* 2011-12-11 14:30 wejp [wejp!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 14:34 wpwrak: what do you find good? 2011-12-11 14:34 I don't know how to help 2011-12-11 14:36 i find it good that a) they're at the point of being able consider making an actually usable device, and b) that they're not afraid to attack that problem 2011-12-11 14:37 (help) yeah, hard. they still don't have the hw side under their control. mini-USRP anyone ? :) 2011-12-11 14:38 the way I read it more is some desperation to avoid slide-into-irrelevance for the baseband software being worked on 2011-12-11 14:38 I believe in product focus, so I did the NanoNote and now MIlkymist One 2011-12-11 14:38 but... they both don't have RF because we don't have the power to really pull it off into a product 2011-12-11 14:39 i wouldn't call it desperation. it's more closure he seems to seek 2011-12-11 14:39 I think the window of opportunity for truly open GSM/3G/LTE stacks has passed, in terms of productization. 2011-12-11 14:40 that will remain an academic/security researcher niche. 2011-12-11 14:40 and Harald is not accouncing that he got a 10 million USD seed investment from a big venture fund :-) he is just trying to find a way to move some of their sources into products before those products (hardware) totally vanish from the marketplace. 2011-12-11 14:41 which seems fine, considering the focus of the project 2011-12-11 14:41 besides, in some areas, GSM may stay around for a while 2011-12-11 14:42 3G is a question of when the patents will start to expire. but it's also more demanding technology. so it's good to do GSM first. 2011-12-11 14:53 yizhang_ [yizhang_!~yi@116.233.41.193] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 14:56 wolfspra1l: (niche) indeed 2011-12-11 14:56 [2011-12-11 15:47:02] yeah, we'll celebrate start of mass production of first completely FOSS GSM phone, on the event where last carrier on this planet declares they will switch their last GSM band to LTE now 2011-12-11 14:56 [2011-12-11 15:47:34] X-P 2011-12-11 14:56 [2011-12-11 15:49:28] and I will utter a sigh of relief, as one of my nightmares is script kiddies and "young talented android developers" are messing with GSM TX and protocol, to implement bullshit that tears down whole cells 2011-12-11 14:58 well 2011-12-11 14:58 I am super optimistic about free radio in the future 2011-12-11 14:58 and osmocom baseband may play an important role in that 2011-12-11 14:58 I just don't thikn the 'catch up to 2g/3g/lte' path works 2011-12-11 14:59 I feel a bit ironic in Harald's mail that he first says "Free Software is not just "the hobby project catching up" with 2011-12-11 14:59 the vendors of proprietary software." 2011-12-11 14:59 and a bare 2 sentences later he goes on with "we have still not managed to even implement the 2011-12-11 14:59 meh, tomorrow I'm going to iron out smaller glitches in LTE firmware again. This train is gone 2011-12-11 14:59 most basic GSM feature phone that existed 15 years ago using proprietary 2011-12-11 15:00 software. We need to work on closing that gap. We ..." 2011-12-11 15:00 huh? 2011-12-11 15:00 so it's not about 'catching up', but we need to "close the gap" 2011-12-11 15:00 :-) 2011-12-11 15:00 so I hope we first get DSP better under control, and I will support kristianpaul's GPS project until that damned thing works :-) 2011-12-11 15:03 for Harald's approach, the Cxxx path sounds best 2011-12-11 15:03 tbh I don't see the purpose to get the GSM stack under FOSS control 2011-12-11 15:03 so they can continue to bringup the stack 2011-12-11 15:03 yeah well 2011-12-11 15:03 as I fail to see reasonable effort to implement FOSS firmware for HDD 2011-12-11 15:03 yes there are many blobs 2011-12-11 15:04 that's why I think this discussion has a perspective as if we were in the late 90's 2011-12-11 15:04 the train has left the station 2011-12-11 15:04 long time ago 2011-12-11 15:04 there is a lot of integration between baseband and application cores happening, and will continue to happen 2011-12-11 15:04 so in the embedded space it will be hard for FOSS to make any impressive showing 2011-12-11 15:05 but it's too late now to break into that, unless someone is willing to bet > 1 billion USD or so on the superiority of a free stack 2011-12-11 15:05 you now got a cpu in each sheet of toilet paper, and I don't give a sh* *cough* about the firmware running on it. For me that'S all blackboxes and who cares if it'S hardwired or firmware driven? 2011-12-11 15:05 well, from a foss perspective it becomes nearly impossible to make interesting embedded products 2011-12-11 15:05 unless you license proprietary blobs 2011-12-11 15:06 the Ubuntu guys are still struggling to find the CD drive on all of this embedded stuff so they can run their installer :-) 2011-12-11 15:08 LOL 2011-12-11 15:10 no? 2011-12-11 15:10 the other day I read a post from a Mozilla engineer (Firefox) that really made me think 2011-12-11 15:10 it was about their inability to optimize the browser for power consumption 2011-12-11 15:10 in 2011 2011-12-11 15:11 and one of their problems, they realized, was that they didn't know how to measure (!) power consumption on a running phone 2011-12-11 15:11 so they asked for help! 2011-12-11 15:11 for the record, this is 2011 2011-12-11 15:11 if this would have been late 90's, ok, fine. 2011-12-11 15:11 but if in the entire Mozilla engineering org they realize only in 2011 that they don't know how to measure power consumption, oh my 2011-12-11 15:11 there's something more deeply wrong there 2011-12-11 15:15 DocScrutinizer: I think there are some research projects, even gpl, about 3g or lte stacks 2011-12-11 15:16 great, but what's the benefit in the end? 2011-12-11 15:16 don't know :-) 2011-12-11 15:16 nowadays modem chips won't take unsigned firmware images to flash anyway 2011-12-11 15:17 oh sure the entire ecosystem has completely moved away from open anything, imho 2011-12-11 15:17 open is only the stuff that nobody knows how to make money with anymore 2011-12-11 15:17 and I'm all day more interested in a proper open comprehensive API than in a FOSS firmware for a chip I got no access anyway 2011-12-11 15:18 if you try to make or use practical products today, that makes sense yes 2011-12-11 15:18 in this respect the Nokia way to specify a industry standard for modem interface is way more promising than any FOSS firmware for the modem 2011-12-11 15:19 but I don't feel comfortable investing in chips that are not standardized enough, i.e. available from multiple independent companies, and for 5+ years at least 2011-12-11 15:19 that pretty much rules out a lot of the chips you would need to be using 2011-12-11 15:19 DocScrutinizer: which standard? 2011-12-11 15:20 err, mompl, need to find the link 2011-12-11 15:20 wireless modem API 2011-12-11 15:21 http://www.wirelessmodemapi.com/ 2011-12-11 15:21 I agree that that can provide the same benefits in terms of openess as digging it all out and 'freeing' things inside. 2011-12-11 15:21 (in theory, reading the link now - THANKS!) 2011-12-11 15:21 though it seems the server is down ATM 2011-12-11 15:22 so you can make a standard, and hopefully multiple chip vendors make chips following that standard 2011-12-11 15:22 not sure what would motivate them though, since so much value nowadays is in 'uniqueness' 2011-12-11 15:22 but if the standard is successful in that regard, whatever the motivation, it creates the same end results as a totally open solution imho 2011-12-11 15:23 or you make a FOSS BB firmware that work for exactly one chip 2011-12-11 15:23 there would be no point in that unless at least some part of it could be carried forward to other chips later 2011-12-11 15:23 (which is always the intention with osmocom as far as I can tell) 2011-12-11 15:23 exactly my point 2011-12-11 15:24 so what is practically happening in gsm/3g/lte baseband chips now? 2011-12-11 15:24 I think still more integration 2011-12-11 15:24 I can't see much of that happen, such a baseband chip with DSP and all the shit is WAY too complex to port large parts of the while stack 2011-12-11 15:24 the AP cores are being merged into the baseband cores 2011-12-11 15:24 esp lower layers 2011-12-11 15:24 true? 2011-12-11 15:24 you tell me 2011-12-11 15:24 you are the 'industry guy', i'm just the foss hippie nowadays :-) 2011-12-11 15:25 I'm an industry newbe 2011-12-11 15:25 :-D 2011-12-11 15:25 there was a time when a smartphone necessarily had a separate baseband and AP CPU, but I think now it's moving back to 1 chip 2011-12-11 15:25 all cores, dsp, all on one die 2011-12-11 15:26 and even though I got access to *all* the LTE source now, we only deal with interfaces of base system, I.E. talking to the outside world of AP land 2011-12-11 15:26 no real clue about signalling 2011-12-11 15:26 and of course everything closed, in fact the companies with the best trajectory now seem to the the ones that are boastful of their high degree of closedness :-) 2011-12-11 15:27 you ever heard of OSE? 2011-12-11 15:27 ENEA OSE 2011-12-11 15:27 no 2011-12-11 15:27 google for it ;-D 2011-12-11 15:27 since you work for ST-E I start to pay more attention to ste news 2011-12-11 15:27 you'll wonder WTF you never heard of it 2011-12-11 15:27 85% engineers! 2011-12-11 15:28 biggest customer is Nokia, CEO just ousted 2011-12-11 15:28 very European thing it seems 2011-12-11 15:28 yep 2011-12-11 15:29 ENEA founded in the early 60s, OSE used on 90+% of BTS and most modems 2011-12-11 15:29 OSE is kinda unixoid 2011-12-11 15:30 but you can't get a single decent manual or whitepaper about the stuff. HELL I hadn't even heard about it 2 weeks ago 2011-12-11 15:31 so much for closed stuff in industry 2011-12-11 15:31 yes 2011-12-11 15:31 but that's why I said I think it's hard to grow a free part in an ecosystem of closed parts 2011-12-11 15:32 indeed 2011-12-11 15:33 if someone establishes a strong open standard for a chip (like the modemapi you pointed out), that may create an environment where free parts can grow 2011-12-11 15:33 but I want to see that standard really adopted from several companies, and supported for x years 2011-12-11 15:34 sure 2011-12-11 15:34 that's the idea behind ISI / openmodemapi 2011-12-11 15:34 that server seems down, will check later 2011-12-11 15:34 great link - thanks a lot! 2011-12-11 15:35 indeed it seems down and you'll also need to register 2011-12-11 15:38 ofono is based on ISI 2011-12-11 15:38 FSO as well ;-D 2011-12-11 15:38 for N900 2011-12-11 15:38 sorry what is ISI now? 2011-12-11 15:38 openmodemapi = wirelessmodemapi ? 2011-12-11 15:40 err yes, sorry 2011-12-11 15:48 Wireless Modem API G2 V2 11w05.zip is the latest version I got here 2011-12-11 15:48 maybe you can find it elsewhere 2011-12-11 15:49 AIUI the protocol is called ISI 2011-12-11 15:50 and ofono builds on that to provide high level API, similar to FSO 2011-12-11 15:51 basically they set up a bus similar to IP and you talk to clients in the modem which listen on certain "ports" 2011-12-11 15:52 on AP there's a libisi.ko which probably is similar to a TCP/IP stack 2011-12-11 15:52 s/.ko/.so/ 2011-12-11 15:52 DocScrutinizer meant: "on AP there's a libisi.so which probably is similar to a TCP/IP stack" 2011-12-11 15:52 the interface is a "NIC" 2011-12-11 15:53 phonet0 Link encap:UNSPEC HWaddr 15-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00 2011-12-11 15:53 UP POINTOPOINT RUNNING NOARP MTU:4000 Metric:1 2011-12-11 15:53 RX packets:77 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 2011-12-11 15:53 TX packets:75 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 2011-12-11 15:55 on "the other end" you got different endpoints, each implementing a service 2011-12-11 15:55 there are even cdc_phonet kernel drivers in standard desktop linux 2011-12-11 15:56 quite usual procedure is to forward the interface to PC via USB-networking 2011-12-11 15:56 funny. you both realize the extreme closedness of that technology (and that's nothing new), yet you don't see the motivation for open projects to try to get in there 2011-12-11 15:58 DocScrutinizer: "implement bullshit that tears down whole cells". indeed, it'd also be worried that all this closed-source junk collapses when something even marginally unexpected happens :) 2011-12-11 15:58 (btw phonet is the "predecessor" of ofono) 2011-12-11 15:59 wpwrak: indeed, but then you know they'll hand out a new phone to just everybody in no time 2011-12-11 16:00 while when your 13 year old neighbour tries "free phonecalls to his girlfriend next house" all you'll see will be a lot of swearing people out on the streets and 2 days later a "funkpeilwagen" driving by 2011-12-11 16:00 which won't cure the problem 2011-12-11 16:03 you sound like the Deutsche Post in the days when modems first appeared. remember when it was illegal to connector your own modem to the oh so fragile telephone network ? ;-) 2011-12-11 16:03 and i'm sure i must have heard the same argument when it came to TCP/IP and linux ;-) 2011-12-11 16:03 wolfspra1l: it's up'ed 2011-12-11 16:04 there's a small but significant difference though: RF 2011-12-11 16:11 yizhang_ [yizhang_!~yi@116.233.41.193] has quit [#qi-hardware] 2011-12-11 16:20 aisa [aisa!~a@c-76-113-7-111.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 16:40 kuribas [kuribas!~user@d54C439C1.access.telenet.be] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 16:45 emeb [emeb!~ericb@ip72-223-86-178.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 16:52 wejp [wejp!~j@m2.mullvad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 16:55 SoulRaven [SoulRaven!SoulRaven@89.41.157.171] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 17:29 jekhor [jekhor!~jek@vulture-nat-34.telecom.by] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 18:43 Ayla [Ayla!~paul@46.94.102.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 18:47 DocScrutinizer: you can just jam the whole spectre part 2011-12-11 18:47 does that differ a lot from the "fiddle with GSM" situation? 2011-12-11 18:59 LunaVorax_ [LunaVorax_!~LunaVorax@cau33-2-82-227-183-10.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 19:16 kudkudyak [kudkudyak!~sun@94.72.162.240] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 19:38 jason__ [jason__!~jason@119.137.42.66] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 19:38 yo wolfspra1l 2011-12-11 19:40 hey guys 2011-12-11 19:40 Im thinking about renting a hong kong fair electronics booth 2011-12-11 20:10 ps2chiper: cool, never been there 2011-12-11 20:10 who are the people visiting the fair? 2011-12-11 20:10 Well I only have two products 2011-12-11 20:10 the hong kong electronics fair paired with the canton fair, make it the largest trade fair in the world 2011-12-11 20:11 I was wondering if you guys want to share a booth 2011-12-11 20:11 I know nothing about the fair. Who is going there? 2011-12-11 20:12 in generial, people that are sourcing new products new ideas or technical services 2011-12-11 20:21 wolfspa1l did you fall asleep? 2011-12-11 20:23 emeb [emeb!~ericb@ip72-223-86-178.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [#qi-hardware] 2011-12-11 20:23 kristoffer [kristoffer!~kristoffe@c-d8dae555.010-30-6c6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 20:27 ps2chiper: no 2011-12-11 20:28 Have you ever been to a trade fair before? 2011-12-11 20:33 yes 2011-12-11 20:34 Did you show off qi-hardware? 2011-12-11 20:35 no 2011-12-11 20:35 here is your chance to do it in april 2011-12-11 20:38 quite unlikely that I can motivate myself for this. Are you asking me whether I plan to attend? or are you asking me whether I would share some costs with you? 2011-12-11 20:38 I would like you to share some cost with me, please give it some consideration. 2011-12-11 20:38 geek fair? :) 2011-12-11 20:38 I will most definitely not pay money. Will I pay with my time? probably also not unless I really understand why that would be an exciting thing to do that day :-) 2011-12-11 20:39 ps2chiper: definitely not pay, no 2011-12-11 20:39 I wouldn't even pay the entrance tickets nowadays. just hold an unconference with the ticket refusal rebels outside, and spend the money on some good wine instead :-) 2011-12-11 20:40 Ayla [Ayla!~paul@108.121.101.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 20:40 I asked you to give it some consideration. I think you are underestimating the hong kong fair. So its your loss, I just wanted to share a booth so there would bemore products to display. But I can see your being short sighted. 2011-12-11 20:40 but I should read more about the fair, so that's a good reminder. I'm sure it's big... 2011-12-11 20:41 I prefer small quality events with people I know or want to get to know better. plus I rather do something than talk or present. feels so much more productive. 2011-12-11 20:42 which products do you plan to show? and what are your expectations into attending? 2011-12-11 20:43 Maybe this would give a chance to show your products to people that don't already know them. Broaden your customer base. 2011-12-11 20:43 Im going to show my routers 2011-12-11 20:43 have you had success with this show before? 2011-12-11 20:43 oh floss like routers? !! 2011-12-11 20:44 I went to the canton fair which was a mistake 2011-12-11 20:44 ps2chiper: have a link about this rotuers? 2011-12-11 20:44 the hong kong fair is the place to be for routers 2011-12-11 20:44 canton was a mistake, but when I think critically about what I get in HK you immediately call me "short sighted" :-) 2011-12-11 20:44 maybe you need a few more mistakes before you reconsider the vision thing :-) 2011-12-11 20:44 yes, because you blew it off without even investigating it 2011-12-11 20:44 nah 2011-12-11 20:45 I will read more about it 2011-12-11 20:45 first I dont' respond fast enough (because I'm thinking), then I do respond then it's "without investigation". argh :-) 2011-12-11 20:45 it's great that you mention it and offer to share a booth! 2011-12-11 20:45 that's an honor for us, really. yes, we should team up! 2011-12-11 20:45 At least I tried and failed, I learned from my previous mistake and have valuable experience from it. 2011-12-11 20:46 when you say canton you mean in guangzhou? 2011-12-11 20:46 yes 2011-12-11 20:46 what was the problem there? 2011-12-11 20:47 that all the people that were buying routers didnt participate in the canton fair. they just left the hong kong fair directly 2011-12-11 20:48 I did some research from other router companies and found out they stop participating in the canton fair from a few years ago, now everyone just participates in the hong kong fair exclusively. While other companies such as satellite receivers participate in both fairs. 2011-12-11 20:49 what I don't understand is why buyers don't go to the SEG market in Shenzhen and treat that as a year-long fair? 2011-12-11 20:49 because they want oem work 2011-12-11 20:49 maybe the buyers like to meet with each other to share experiences and leads? 2011-12-11 20:49 I went to the canton fair because the factory I work for makes satellite receivers. But I see the router business as the future. 2011-12-11 20:50 sure but many of the booths at SEG market are in fact with companies behind them who can do OEM 2011-12-11 20:50 not for routers 2011-12-11 20:50 routers are harder to make because the testing machine cost 50k usd 2011-12-11 20:50 and 1 machine can only test 10k pcs a month 2011-12-11 20:51 so the investment cost is too great for little electronic factories to undertake 2011-12-11 20:51 why are no router companies/booths in SEG? 2011-12-11 20:51 I just explained the investment is too great 2011-12-11 20:51 ok 2011-12-11 20:52 You need something called an iqflex 2011-12-11 20:52 from the company iqview 2011-12-11 20:52 so at HK you have all the larger OEM/ODM in one place 2011-12-11 20:52 correct 2011-12-11 20:52 and this fair is for electronics exclusively 2011-12-11 20:54 It would be good for you guys, because you can introduce your copyleft products to people that never imagined such things existed. also I am focusing on openwrt routers, so it might be mutually beneficial. but the cost of a 15 meter square booth is 8k usd. 2011-12-11 20:54 0_o 2011-12-11 20:54 I could buy a smaller 9 quare meter booth at 4.5k, but I still only have two products 2011-12-11 20:55 well like I said the chances that I will do that are close to nil. I want to tell you that first so you don't complain later you spent so much time trying to sell the idea to me :-) 2011-12-11 20:55 if someone pays me 10k though I may consider attending :-) 2011-12-11 20:55 ps2chiper: do you think there are other foss like products in that fair ? 2011-12-11 20:55 no 2011-12-11 20:55 Why would I pay you to go to the fair. Its nice enough that I am offering to help you. 2011-12-11 20:56 I think when you understand that the chances that I will share the costs with you are almost zero you will stop promoting the idea :-) 2011-12-11 20:57 no, i will just offer it to your other members 2011-12-11 20:59 I think I know roughly why, for very good reasons, people attend the fair. and then I don't see how trying to have a Ben NanoNote or Milkymist One somewhere in a little booth will do any good. 2011-12-11 21:00 I am much better off spending that time improving my web presence, or at a much smaller event where Milkymist One can really shine. 2011-12-11 21:00 What do you think they want to see? i thought you had a lot of inventions on qi-hardware besided the ben and milky 2011-12-11 21:01 I think people that go there want to effectively source new Chinese vendors, or keep/improve relationships with existing vendors. 2011-12-11 21:02 because if you don't have a fair like that, all you can do is travel in China, which is a big country and instead of 5 minutes from one booth to another, you have to spend 1 day by car/train/airplane from one vendor to another. 2011-12-11 21:02 well its not just chinese vendors, its open to any company to participate. 2011-12-11 21:03 and you would be selling your own oem services, not the actual product 2011-12-11 21:05 don't know. what is 'oem service'? 2011-12-11 21:05 cheap china crap on demand :) 2011-12-11 21:05 the fair will be packed by people and companies that say they can manufacture 'everything'. 2011-12-11 21:05 your design services, the nanonote is your proof 2011-12-11 21:05 wpwrak: forgot the fancy brand 2011-12-11 21:06 wolfspra1l: you'll have a big advantage: you're taller than the rest ;-)) 2011-12-11 21:06 well I don't know the event, never been there 2011-12-11 21:06 maybe we wait for ps2chiper's feedback from the event first :-) 2011-12-11 21:07 why dont you just watch videos on it 2011-12-11 21:07 LunaVorax [LunaVorax!~LunaVorax@cau33-2-82-227-183-10.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-11 21:08 sounds like a good plan. if you're not prepared to fully commit a lot of resources, including time, it's a waste anyway, even if the fair would be perfect (which i also doubt) 2011-12-11 21:09 I want to go to smaller electronic music and video art festivals :-) 2011-12-11 21:09 ps2chiper: also, random OEM deals isn't what we're looking for. we already have our own strategy 2011-12-11 21:09 what is your strategy? 2011-12-11 21:10 build increasingly open hardware, and stay afloat with the products that result from this incremental process 2011-12-11 21:11 and find investors for that path :-) 2011-12-11 21:11 ps2chiper: wanna invest? :-) 2011-12-11 21:11 what we have now is not yet the level of openness we'd ultimately want 2011-12-11 21:11 staying afloat includes many options :) 2011-12-11 21:11 the HK fair may well be interesting, I just don't know enough 2011-12-11 21:11 I would only invest in copy left routers 2011-12-11 21:11 I would probably attend as a visitor first 2011-12-11 21:12 and like I said - I *really* prefer doing something over talk and presentations. some of those 'fairs' feel wrong to me. 2011-12-11 21:12 I don't understand why you cant build copy left products that are sold as retail to compete with name brands. 2011-12-11 21:13 cause it's boring 2011-12-11 21:14 compete with name brands is not vert copyleft anyway :) 2011-12-11 21:14 how is it not copy left if you give away all your sources to the public? 2011-12-11 21:14 that is my goal 2011-12-11 21:14 oh sure thats it 2011-12-11 21:15 but brandy products are not usually whar you can expect from copyleft products 2011-12-11 21:15 i mean in features 2011-12-11 21:16 is even diffcult in our own enviorment like most people asking for Wifi, now in afair... image that :) 2011-12-11 21:16 I dont understand what product you are using an example. but in routers the manufactures omit many features that do not cost more money in manufacturing to raise the value of the product. 2011-12-11 21:18 My goal is to manufacture the routers with all the features that were omitted and sell them for the same price as standard routers. 2011-12-11 21:19 had you already achieved that? 2011-12-11 21:20 partially, I just modified an already existing router. I need to get some customers lined up before I dump all my money into it 2011-12-11 21:20 ah, thats what the fair is for :) 2011-12-11 21:21 right 2011-12-11 21:21 but I only have 2 products right now. 2011-12-11 21:21 its going to look like an empty display case 2011-12-11 21:22 hey wolfspraul, is your wife bhuddist or dao? 2011-12-11 21:22 I went to a bhuddist temple yesterday, but I never got a chance to see a dao one 2011-12-11 21:25 now i see this i can manufacture everything, wondering how stories end 2011-12-11 21:25 we manufacture a copyleft buddha 2011-12-11 21:27 * kuribas thinks that for the nanonote to sell, it will need a nice interface. 2011-12-11 21:28 I am working on one in my spare time, but I do not promise anything soon. 2011-12-11 21:28 you mean a replacement for gmenu2x ? 2011-12-11 21:29 No, a nicer GUI, with a statusbar, and some usefull apps. 2011-12-11 21:29 a PIM for example. 2011-12-11 21:30 yes but it would replace the launcher? your idea is that the Ben boots directly into it? 2011-12-11 21:30 yes 2011-12-11 21:30