2011-12-09 01:03 wolfspraul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 01:04 back :-) 2011-12-09 01:04 wpwrak: you screenshot motivated me to look for an xmas gift for myself in the form of a large-screen high-res new notebook :-) 2011-12-09 01:06 aw_ joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 01:06 aw joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 01:07 xiangfu joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 01:09 xiangfu: good morning 2011-12-09 01:12 good morning 2011-12-09 01:13 cool Adam is also there - good morning aw_ :-) 2011-12-09 01:17 kristianpaul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 01:17 kristianpaul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 01:17 interesting, is this true? http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Microsoft-bans-free-software-from-Windows-Phone-Marketplace-1191524.html 2011-12-09 01:19 I don't follow legacy tech that much anymore, but if Microsoft also systematically bans copyleft that may be something we can use to make people interested in Qi 2011-12-09 01:20 http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Windows-Store-agreement-has-open-source-exception-1391749.html 2011-12-09 01:20 store??!! 2011-12-09 01:20 good morning ! 2011-12-09 01:20 maybe only for mobile now, don't know 2011-12-09 01:20 well if they don't like quality software, we will receive it with open arms 2011-12-09 01:21 floss on windows is popular, people installing vlc, openffice 7z.. 2011-12-09 01:22 if they cut off, yeah good for us 2011-12-09 01:23 this is nothing new though, there was something about the Apple store being incompatible with the GPL before that 2011-12-09 01:23 btw, are Qi folks in touch with the opencores/openrisc folks? 2011-12-09 01:24 pabs3: unfortunately too little [opencores] 2011-12-09 01:24 if you can help bridge the gap, please do so 2011-12-09 01:25 naturally I believe Milkymist One is an exciting SoC development platform and there should be more stuff from opencores that we at least play with, learn more about, etc. 2011-12-09 01:25 I'm not involved in either project 2011-12-09 01:25 but it also depends on people doing so, right now Milkymist SoC is really only 1 active HDL developer, that's Sebastien 2011-12-09 01:25 ah ok. but at least you are lurking, good :-) 2011-12-09 01:27 I think we need to try out more, move it from the realm of talk to the realm of usage. 2011-12-09 01:28 I mean that in terms of opencores & milkymist (One) 2011-12-09 01:28 Sebastien I'm sure has been doing this all along, but not many others yet... 2011-12-09 01:28 its interesting that OpenRISC support was merged into Linux 3.1 2011-12-09 01:29 also they are looking at turning out an ASIC: http://opencores.org/donation 2011-12-09 01:32 the ASIC direction is good technically, sooner or later we will definitely 'tape out' freely licensed chips in the same way that we 'gerber out' freely licensed pcbs 2011-12-09 01:33 but to get there we need to open up and understand the process, and zoom in on a particular product where the asic/structured asic/whatever process makes sense economically 2011-12-09 01:33 use case first, then tech 2011-12-09 01:33 otherwise the only guidance you have is to 'catch up' with whatever asic that is currently on the market, and that is a completely hopeless proposition 2011-12-09 01:34 we've seen the same kind of path in the ogd1 (opengraphicsproject) 2011-12-09 01:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Graphics_Project 2011-12-09 01:35 every time I use my m1 and admire the visuals and play with music and effects, I know we are on the right path :-) 2011-12-09 01:35 let's see where the OGD1 is now... one sec 2011-12-09 01:35 should check this once a year :-) 2011-12-09 01:36 "Full specifications will be published and open source device drivers will be released. All RTL will be released. Source code to the device drivers and BIOS will be released under the MIT and BSD licenses. The RTL (in Verilog) used for the FPGA and the RTL used for the ASIC are planned to be released under the GNU General Public License (GPL)." 2011-12-09 01:36 is that true? 2011-12-09 01:36 that sounds like from an English class about 'future tense' 2011-12-09 01:38 ok still nothing I think http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.graphics.opengraphics/9324 2011-12-09 01:38 will check again in 1 year 2011-12-09 01:38 now the opencores donation, where is that? 2011-12-09 01:38 20k ? 2011-12-09 01:38 man my guess is good :-) 20,800 USD 2011-12-09 01:39 pabs3: milkymist one (and milkymist soc) is years ahead this stuff 2011-12-09 01:40 we should definitely try to collaborate and exchange as much as possible with opencores, but Sebastien and others are aware of opencores since forever so I'm sure this is already happening to the extent that we find useful stuff and knowledge 2011-12-09 01:40 I am subscribed to the opencores newsletter :-) 2011-12-09 01:42 if you are interested in asic, I recommend reading this post http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/chip-design-open-source-and-diy-part-3-batch-fabrication-of-chips 2011-12-09 01:43 part 1 and 2 are also good 2011-12-09 01:43 and then I recommend buying a Milkymist One, of course :-) and making the jump into the cold water and start IC design hacking... 2011-12-09 01:44 when you are frustrated, listen to some great music and visuals thanks to M1 itself :-) 2011-12-09 01:45 btw, related in a way. semiconductor industry has about 300 billion USD worldwide revenues this year 2011-12-09 01:46 I need to learn more about the revenue and margin trends inside that 300 billion USD bucket, which types of chips are responsible for what share of the total 2011-12-09 01:46 that will be important for us to decide how to design products and where to do something ourselves and where to buy from outside 2011-12-09 01:48 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 01:57 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 02:14 panda|x201 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 02:18 aw joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 02:18 aw_ joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 02:28 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 02:41 aw_ joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 02:43 aw_ joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 02:59 wolfspraul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 03:19 wolfspraul: (big screen) hehe ;-) (an) external screen(s) can also help. a smaller screen on the laptop itself makes it travel more easily and break less 2011-12-09 03:19 :-) 2011-12-09 03:19 I shall find out 2011-12-09 03:19 1920x1080, ratpoison 2011-12-09 03:20 actually I would like to build one myself using shenzhen parts, but too much trouble right now 2011-12-09 03:20 that would be a good excuse to work on some nice case :-) 2011-12-09 03:21 good point about breaking, my Asus has a metal behind the lcm and even though I took it around a lot, never felt uneasy about breaking the screen 2011-12-09 03:21 and it got squeeze all over in buses, subways, chairs, and so on 2011-12-09 03:22 wpwrak: about our earlier SoC discussion 2011-12-09 03:22 Ingenic does not compete with TI, Freescale, Qualcomm 2011-12-09 03:22 not today, not tomorrow 2011-12-09 03:22 they compete with other low-cost Chinese SoC vendors, whose names you will never want to learn :-) 2011-12-09 03:22 that keeps them trapped in terms of slowly acquiring more knowledge, no matter how much cash they have 2011-12-09 03:24 I think the idea of Chinese SoC makers will not go very far, I can already see the limits to that 2011-12-09 03:24 well, if the volume is right, they'd still have enough left for a top-notch sw team. sw scales nicely :) 2011-12-09 03:24 of course, all this assuming they care 2011-12-09 03:24 I really talk to a lot of Chinese manufacturers, designers, here there. 2011-12-09 03:24 yes 2011-12-09 03:24 so everybody knows - don't buy Chinese connectors, for example 2011-12-09 03:24 it's just shit, really 2011-12-09 03:24 oh :) 2011-12-09 03:25 so the Chinese companies that want to make quality products buy Taiwanese connectors, or Japanese! 2011-12-09 03:25 PCB, same 2011-12-09 03:25 passive parts, same 2011-12-09 03:25 power ics, same (lots of good stuff there from the US) 2011-12-09 03:25 the political agenda put "CPU" on the table at some point, but just as prestige projects 2011-12-09 03:26 state of IC design in China is horrible, similar to software 2011-12-09 03:26 so look at Ingenic's sources :-) 2011-12-09 03:26 (they stop publishing recently, nobody cares in all the junk anyway) 2011-12-09 03:26 in very friendly terms you could say "will never go upstream" 2011-12-09 03:26 well, at least the 4740 family seems to work :) 2011-12-09 03:26 yes, it's shared among many Chinese low-cost SoC makers 2011-12-09 03:26 this stuff is all blindly copy/pasted 2011-12-09 03:27 zero talent at those companies 2011-12-09 03:27 the government sets up pools, shared 'centers' etc. 2011-12-09 03:27 then everybody runs 2011-12-09 03:27 you admire your masters and copy the best work from them :-) 2011-12-09 03:27 nah 2011-12-09 03:27 that's a legend 2011-12-09 03:27 scratch the 'admire masters' 2011-12-09 03:28 that would require that you know who a master is, and 'admiring' means you understand something 2011-12-09 03:28 for example memory controllers 2011-12-09 03:28 one of the most critical parts in the Milkymist SoC, arguably 2011-12-09 03:28 don't you think they think they know who the masters are ? :) 2011-12-09 03:28 no 2011-12-09 03:28 so the state of memory controllers in CHina is catastrophic 2011-12-09 03:29 even the famous Loongson has to license that part from abroad 2011-12-09 03:29 that's the problem with political projects that they have to go for the 'big' thing first (CPU), but their talent is not enough to make it work down into the details 2011-12-09 03:30 so there are a lot of problems with that licensed memory controller, and the end result is that a comparable Intel chip can be put on a 6 or max. 8 layer PCB, but you need a 16-layer PCB for the Loongson :-) 2011-12-09 03:30 details like proper video graphics !! (yes lemote :() 2011-12-09 03:30 s/proper/better supported etc.. 2011-12-09 03:30 kristianpaul meant: "details like better supported etc.. video graphics !! (yes lemote :()" 2011-12-09 03:30 (16 layer) awww ... 2011-12-09 03:30 *g* 2011-12-09 03:31 well it's the typical story 2011-12-09 03:31 hide the dirt under the rug 2011-12-09 03:31 under the pcb layers in this case :-) 2011-12-09 03:31 but this politica thing is up to 2020 if i remenber, longsoon 16 cores cpus :) 2011-12-09 03:32 fine 2011-12-09 03:32 all meaningless really 2011-12-09 03:32 I'm here to study, and I learn every day 2011-12-09 03:32 kristianpaul: each core gets its own layer :) 2011-12-09 03:32 kristianpaul: did you buy a lemote? 2011-12-09 03:32 the problem comes from lousy memory controller I was told 2011-12-09 03:32 Intel is excellent at memory controllers (just relaying) 2011-12-09 03:33 so with Ingenic, we have to see 2011-12-09 03:33 I am very open and excited about the relationship 2011-12-09 03:33 and as long as Liu Qiang wants to meet with me, I will do so once or twice a year 2011-12-09 03:33 wolfspraul: more o less yes, 2 years ago 2011-12-09 03:33 I learnt so much already, it's great for me 2011-12-09 03:33 but right now I just don't think this will take off, we both don't understand and don't need each other 2011-12-09 03:34 he has to run, throw whatever random SoC together, tape out, sell, squeeze out every penny, and then again 2011-12-09 03:35 if I see things correctly, the idea of indendently designed Chinese SoCs will go roughly where the idea of Linux/free software allowing Chinese to make 'Chinese software' went in the last 10 years 2011-12-09 03:35 if the USD 2 CPU needs an USD 100 PCB, then we have of course a problem with the "low cost" approach 2011-12-09 03:35 that is: nowhere 2011-12-09 03:36 if, however, they manage to commoditize the hardware as such, i don't see too much of an issue with them not understanding software. as long as someone is around who does. 2011-12-09 03:36 yes but in embedded SoCs that's very hard 2011-12-09 03:36 whether ingenic have to be part of that someone's revenue stream or not, seems secondary 2011-12-09 03:36 that's my point 2011-12-09 03:37 Ingenic cannot survive on revenues coming from us 2011-12-09 03:37 they would go out of business right away 2011-12-09 03:37 so whatever strategy they have, it must fit the market overall 2011-12-09 03:37 and I think it will be hard for independent Chinese SoC makers 2011-12-09 03:37 i was more thinking of ingenic benefiting from a well-maintained kernel / system 2011-12-09 03:38 because a good SoC is so product and software dependant 2011-12-09 03:38 yes but they only care about sales volume 2011-12-09 03:38 and fast 2011-12-09 03:38 wpwrak: http://www.hotchips.org/uploads/archive22/HC22.24.630-1-Hu-GS464V-godson.pdf 2011-12-09 03:38 so we don't need to talk with them, we just buy chips when we need them 2011-12-09 03:39 cladamw joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 03:39 they blew their chance to enter phones 2011-12-09 03:39 that's too late now 2011-12-09 03:39 well, maybe you could approach them from the "why amazon/quanta didn't pick up your chip but went with expensive TI instead" angle 2011-12-09 03:39 Qualcomm is totally unreachable 2011-12-09 03:40 MTK also 2011-12-09 03:40 for all we know, quanta may have even suggested ingenic to amazon, or may - unsuccessfully - do so in the future 2011-12-09 03:40 the Chinese MTK clone Spreadtrum will embed their own ARM cores into their baseband chips 2011-12-09 03:40 oh no, no way 2011-12-09 03:40 they probably get flooded with spam from unknown Chinese vendors trying to sell them whatever 2011-12-09 03:40 cladamw joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 03:40 it will all be discarded 2011-12-09 03:41 kristianpaul: nice HPC ranking ;-) 2011-12-09 03:41 there's nothing behind 2011-12-09 03:41 so Ingenic's media player market is going away 2011-12-09 03:41 they are trying to get into tablets, but except for extremely optimistic people like Ron nobody thinks that that crap can sell in any quantities 2011-12-09 03:41 you can only sell so much of a broken product :-) 2011-12-09 03:42 (amazon access) well, wouldn't a "western" company doing the base software make it look more friendly ? 2011-12-09 03:42 I suggested we should look at new categories like lamps, laser projectors, etc. but that is completely beyond their imagination. 2011-12-09 03:42 they can just sell us some plastic, that's all 2011-12-09 03:42 they barely understand what's inside the package ;-) 2011-12-09 03:43 trust me 2011-12-09 03:43 that's the downside of the 'attractive' price 2011-12-09 03:43 it's no different from the rusting connector 2011-12-09 03:43 that every Chinese manufacturer themselves knows you should never touch 2011-12-09 03:44 yes it may sound strange and unbelievable to compare a 50 cent connector to a 50 cent SoC, but that's how I see it 2011-12-09 03:44 they are both designed and manufactured with roughly the same amount of brain input :-) 2011-12-09 03:44 the common item is longevity 2011-12-09 03:44 hmm. connectors look fiendishly complex to me. for most of them, i wouldn't even begin to understand how to manufacture them. 2011-12-09 03:51 fair enough 2011-12-09 03:51 so no China :-) 2011-12-09 03:51 I just met this 1-person Chinese hardware maker who made the Icarus bitcoin mining board 2011-12-09 03:52 (all freely licensed and in github) 2011-12-09 03:52 wow :) 2011-12-09 03:52 and it's the same story as always, when going through his board he proudly says "all connectors sourced from abroad" 2011-12-09 03:52 "look, US power ICs" 2011-12-09 03:52 ;-) 2011-12-09 03:52 well they know, they manufacturer here all the time 2011-12-09 03:53 so it's "designed in the US, manufactured in China" ? 2011-12-09 03:53 to me it looks right now as if the idea of a Chinese SoC is as flawed as the idea of Chinese data converters (adc/dac), Chinese connectors, Chinese passive parts, Chinese power ICs, ... 2011-12-09 03:54 or RedFlag Linux :-) 2011-12-09 03:54 (soc) well, there's hope for some "learning by doing" ... 2011-12-09 03:54 not in me :-) 2011-12-09 03:55 that's happening in Milkymist SoC, yes 2011-12-09 03:55 big time 2011-12-09 03:55 maybe you should approach the government. make great linux support for ingenic chips, and hire groups interns for, say, one year, to learn on the job :) 2011-12-09 03:55 s/groups/groups of/ 2011-12-09 03:55 wpwrak meant: "maybe you should approach the government. make great linux support for ingenic chips, and hire groups of interns for, say, one year, to learn on the job :)" 2011-12-09 03:56 won't work 2011-12-09 03:56 I am mentally moving past the idea of us finding a great Chinese SoC maker to work with 2011-12-09 03:57 I will keep trying to find a way to collaborate, but once you learned something by really doing it, there is little need to do that again and again. 2011-12-09 03:57 so in other words, I think the lack of understanding how this could work mutually will be stronger than any initial motivation to just do it regardless 2011-12-09 03:57 well, for mid-range devices, ingenic don't look so bad. one problem is their (non-)publication policy 2011-12-09 03:57 nah it's deeper 2011-12-09 03:58 they think their problem is that Quanta hasn't picked up their phone call yet 2011-12-09 03:58 even though they sent some samples! :-) 2011-12-09 03:58 but for the chip, they seem to be well-positioned. e.g., from the system software side, they're not more trouble to work with than, say, samsung. perhaps even less. 2011-12-09 03:58 you mean for the Ben? 2011-12-09 03:58 yes sure, we did well and I hope we can continue with the Ben 2011-12-09 03:58 I am talking about future products 2011-12-09 03:58 ben and similar 2011-12-09 03:59 and I will continue to work with Ingenic, I am just describing the status quo as clearly as possible 2011-12-09 03:59 do you expect that 4740 successors will be inferior in terms of overall system integration cost ? 2011-12-09 04:00 (i.e., the 16 layer pcb memory controller) 2011-12-09 04:00 (or just not work or work unreliably) 2011-12-09 04:02 in the ben, we had remarkably few problems. also, the documentation is adequate. not perfect, but when i compare this with some things samsung did, certainly in pretty good shape 2011-12-09 04:02 wait, you misunderstood me 2011-12-09 04:02 the reference to 16-layer was about a high-end Loongson CPU 2011-12-09 04:02 yes yes 2011-12-09 04:03 but you said that intel could have done the same with a lot less 2011-12-09 04:03 yes 2011-12-09 04:03 as an example of how strong Chinese companies actually are in IC design 2011-12-09 04:03 or how weak rather 2011-12-09 04:03 so if ingenic do their own equivalent of the "16 layer memory controller", whichever subsystem or aspect of the chip that may be, e.g., could be power supply, then they would kill their own low-cost angle 2011-12-09 04:04 there's a lot of random guessing, and then if something actually has to work well they have to license/buy foreign stuff 2011-12-09 04:04 no I think the Ingenic chips are fine 2011-12-09 04:04 but that doesn't mean that Ingenic has the quality staff you would need for them to be in control of their own destiny 2011-12-09 04:04 on the IC design or software side 2011-12-09 04:05 so you're implicitly predicting that a "16 layer memory controller" incident will happen 2011-12-09 04:05 think of it this way: how far is the Milkymist SoC from replacing any Ingenic chip entirely? 2011-12-09 04:05 Ingenic is licensing/copy-pasting a lot of IP blocks, yes 2011-12-09 04:05 hmm, maybe 1-2 years 2011-12-09 04:06 and then they tape-out in the highest process they can get their hands on 2011-12-09 04:06 and then they dump the chip on the market fast and cheap because lots of other Chinese SoC makers have access to the same IP core pools 2011-12-09 04:06 maybe that's the cruz 2011-12-09 04:06 you think they have time to think through the subtleties of something higher up in the Android stack working or not? :-) 2011-12-09 04:06 crux even 2011-12-09 04:07 of course you can imagine me :-) I like to do the "what device are you using yourself" game 2011-12-09 04:07 always fun in China 2011-12-09 04:07 and I still love it :-) 2011-12-09 04:07 don't believe the 'save face' nonsense, jsut go right for the demasking 2011-12-09 04:07 maybe the real problem is that any investment they make benefits their fiercest competitors just as much. so it depends on whether they believe in growing the pie instead of getting a bigger slice 2011-12-09 04:08 yes true, that would be one problem 2011-12-09 04:08 I think they are fine, that's my point 2011-12-09 04:08 not much we can do 2011-12-09 04:08 imagine you are a maker of cheap Chinese connectors, something simple like the memcard connector on the Ben you like so much 2011-12-09 04:08 tolerances are bad 2011-12-09 04:08 everything is bad 2011-12-09 04:09 you sell for 10 cents 2011-12-09 04:09 which again would point to them being a sub-optimal tree to bark up. the source that finances that shared IP would be better. 2011-12-09 04:09 the good ones from Japan or Taiwan cost 50 cents 2011-12-09 04:09 what do you do now? 2011-12-09 04:09 you can just either continue or close your company 2011-12-09 04:09 you cannot genetically reinvent an entire company full of people 2011-12-09 04:09 company culture is self-selecting 2011-12-09 04:09 well, you cuold perhaps try to see if there are small improvements you can make. before the name is ruined completely. 2011-12-09 04:10 you cannot start with farmers, and then 5 years into it when you have 100 farmers hacking into their keyboards suddenly reboot the entire company with a bunch of US-trained PhDs 2011-12-09 04:10 of course if everybody flinches when they read "made in china" on a connector and doesnt' even look beyond that, then your chances are slim 2011-12-09 04:11 oh, there are many ways to bring fresh blood into a company. of course, if you want to do a complete makeover, better shut down the old one and start something new 2011-12-09 04:11 the fact is that Ingenic blew their entrance into phones 2011-12-09 04:11 and Qi and Ingenic blew to setup something like Linaro 2011-12-09 04:11 now all they can hope for are tablets 2011-12-09 04:12 we'll see 2011-12-09 04:12 and hope they survive tablets until the next big thing comes along :) 2011-12-09 04:12 I like Milkymist better every day :-) 2011-12-09 04:12 yes but they will be late/miss that next big thing again 2011-12-09 04:13 the cost advantage is all they have 2011-12-09 04:13 but if you think from a 'what works' perspective, that's so laughable 2011-12-09 04:13 being in tablets must feel a bit like you have end-stage cancer, just dropped out of an airplane and are in free fall, and the only thing you see below you, where you may safely land, is the titanic, going full steam for the iceberg 2011-12-09 04:13 you really think someone wants to bring down their entire software *stack* so that the CPU is 10 USD cheaper? 2011-12-09 04:14 so many ways to die, so little hope 2011-12-09 04:14 so if the SoC maker needs 5 or 10 more USD / pc so that it integrates well with a software stack, boy, that's worth it! 2011-12-09 04:14 for smart people, the sw stack has little cost 2011-12-09 04:14 read the Ingenic sources a little :-) 2011-12-09 04:14 you may reconsider that 2011-12-09 04:15 on the Ben, 100% of the cleanup work was done outside of Ingenic and with zero support 2011-12-09 04:15 no documents were opened 2011-12-09 04:15 e.g., why should amazon not use ingenic ? the sw stack is probably marginal. a much bigger worry would be whether ingenic really deliver those millions of chips on time, in good quality, etc. 2011-12-09 04:15 no single dollar changed hands 2011-12-09 04:15 nah, then Amazon better design their own SoC 2011-12-09 04:15 yes. we did the smart thing - do our stuff without depending on ingenic 2011-12-09 04:16 a lot of companies try to avoid useless middlemen that can charge whatever margin they wish 2011-12-09 04:16 and you are suggesting to add one that wouldn't add anything but a tollbooth? 2011-12-09 04:16 I could not recommend that at all if I were on the Amazon side 2011-12-09 04:16 if they made a 5740 tomorrow that's exactly like the 4740 but with an ARM core instead, it would take is mere days to switch 2011-12-09 04:16 s/is/us/ 2011-12-09 04:16 wpwrak meant: "if they made a 5740 tomorrow that's exactly like the 4740 but with an ARM core instead, it would take us mere days to switch" 2011-12-09 04:16 yep 2011-12-09 04:17 the "Ingenic SoC" is really a "China SoC" 2011-12-09 04:17 you can get *a lot* of such chips from at least 10 or 20 companies 2011-12-09 04:17 (middleman) well, see linaro. could they also do their job without being at excellent terms with ARM ? probably 2011-12-09 04:18 and that "China SoC" has some serious problems from my perspective, which is how to make great open hardware, fast and working and carrying forward the highest quality free software 2011-12-09 04:18 let's hope they have at least the decency of naming them all 4740 :) 2011-12-09 04:19 so whether we go from the Ben to the Ya on another, newer, China SoC, or switch right to the Milkymist SoC, remains to be seen 2011-12-09 04:19 you mean as in "we did it for the 4740, but don't count on it happening for the 4780" ? 2011-12-09 04:19 yes sure, we did excellent on the 4740 2011-12-09 04:19 (as a message to ingenic) 2011-12-09 04:19 Lars largely 2011-12-09 04:19 oh they don't care, they don't even understand 2011-12-09 04:19 it's like a foreigner talking to you in some totally unintelligable language 2011-12-09 04:19 trying to tell you something VERY IMPORTANT 2011-12-09 04:20 ha ha 2011-12-09 04:20 what can you do... 2011-12-09 04:20 first another asado :-) 2011-12-09 04:20 so where do their customers get the system software from ? 2011-12-09 04:20 from Ingenic 2011-12-09 04:20 totally dysfunctional Android builds 2011-12-09 04:21 but they get it to work ? 2011-12-09 04:21 I spare you or anyone to copy/paste some reviewer comments from people who accidentally bought such tablets in the US :-) 2011-12-09 04:21 ;-) 2011-12-09 04:21 yay, it boots. 2011-12-09 04:21 and you can swipe! 2011-12-09 04:21 LOOOK! 2011-12-09 04:21 :-) 2011-12-09 04:21 swipe, swipe 2011-12-09 04:21 how many do you want to buy? 2011-12-09 04:21 swipe, swipe 2011-12-09 04:21 do ingenic see these reviews ? 2011-12-09 04:21 I doubt it 2011-12-09 04:21 how many do you want to buy? 2011-12-09 04:22 swipe, swipe 2011-12-09 04:22 I give you a discount if you buy 100! 2011-12-09 04:22 maybe you should bring them a few the next time :) 2011-12-09 04:22 ;-)) 2011-12-09 04:22 (a few reviews) 2011-12-09 04:22 like I said, I foudn the secret behind their low-cost :-) 2011-12-09 04:22 there's always a price to pay, now I know which one... 2011-12-09 04:23 bbiab 2011-12-09 04:23 yes, but then there's the question of what they perceive as problems. even if their customers all fail, that may be okay, as long as they burn enough initial investment on buying chips 2011-12-09 04:24 yes 2011-12-09 04:24 it's a big world 2011-12-09 04:24 and that is how Ingenic sees it 2011-12-09 04:24 the US saying is "a sucker is born every minute", no? 2011-12-09 04:24 yeah :) 2011-12-09 04:24 I grew up in Germany, until I started living in Asia I could not imagine that stores sell products that just plain DO NOT WORK. 2011-12-09 04:24 never did 2011-12-09 04:25 of course, another problem would be that we don't have have what they need. their customers would want to have full android support. 2011-12-09 04:25 like an iron (to iron shirts) where the power cable inside is broken and was never connected 2011-12-09 04:25 not just on one, but on the entire lot 2011-12-09 04:25 not some nice upstream patches and openwrt 2011-12-09 04:25 nobody cares, it's cheap, it sells 2011-12-09 04:25 maybe the poor buyers have to solder the missing cable themselves 2011-12-09 04:25 or whatever 2011-12-09 04:25 it doesn't matter 2011-12-09 04:25 yeah, the infamous "china crap" :) 2011-12-09 04:26 well, the buyer is in control. he can choose to not buy. 2011-12-09 04:26 not always 2011-12-09 04:26 you better make good use of that choice :-) 2011-12-09 04:26 if all you find in the stores is china crap, you'r screwed 2011-12-09 04:26 well, you better keep that control 2011-12-09 04:26 yes their customers want full and powerful android, definitely 2011-12-09 04:27 and no, we cannot deliver that either 2011-12-09 04:27 our path is longer 2011-12-09 04:27 and requires understanding of how things connect and depend on each other in that big software stack 2011-12-09 04:27 bbl 2011-12-09 04:51 oh, nice there is #opencores 2011-12-09 04:52 and #openrisc 2011-12-09 04:52 * pabs3 goes lurking some more 2011-12-09 04:58 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:03 kristianpaul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:03 kristianpaul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:16 kristianpaul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:28 rzk joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:33 wejp joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:36 xtzd joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:36 DocScrutinizer joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:37 xtzd left #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:46 freakazoid0223 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 05:56 rejon joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 06:07 paroneayea joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 06:44 wolfspraul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 06:55 xiangfu joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 07:15 cladamw joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 07:18 stefan_schmidt joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 07:29 cool just saw Milkymist mentioned here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS 2011-12-09 07:52 wolfspraul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 08:03 wolfspraul joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 08:33 jekhor joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 09:26 jivs joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 09:28 !tweet Milkymist One & DMX fixtures http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDiq9gyFg6o @milkymistvj 2011-12-09 09:28 Tweet created: http://twitter.com/qihardware 2011-12-09 09:30 xiangfu: cool stuff 2011-12-09 09:31 blogic, cool milkymist one. :D 2011-12-09 09:36 SoulRaven joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 09:43 e33 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 09:43 anyone have installed backtrack on smartphone? 2011-12-09 09:59 antoniodariush joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 10:01 e33 left #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 10:07 antoniodariush__ joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 10:32 what is backtrack? 2011-12-09 10:34 kristoffer joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 10:46 it is a linux distribution made for penetration testing 2011-12-09 10:58 the guys ip resolved to lebanon 2011-12-09 10:58 so he was using an anonymizer i guess 2011-12-09 10:59 jekhor joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 11:11 SoulRaven joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 11:11 SoulRaven joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 11:11 SoulRaven joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 11:11 SoulRaven joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 11:12 SoulRaven joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 11:16 Ayla joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 11:19 SoulRaven joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 11:28 pabs3 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 12:06 qwebirc4371 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 12:18 jivs joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 12:20 did anyone play around with a SDIO serial card for Ben? 2011-12-09 12:28 antoniodariush joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 13:23 antoniodariush joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 15:19 urandom__ joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 15:25 tonghuix joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 15:28 jivs joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 15:30 antgreen joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 15:58 emeb joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 15:58 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 16:14 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 16:15 penguinhead: not strictly sdio-serial, but there's this: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/nxuart 2011-12-09 16:16 it's a small AVR on an 8:10 card. you can program the AVR from the ben and also communicate with it. the AVR in turn has a UART and RX and TX are brought out to a connector: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/uart-20110131.jpg 2011-12-09 16:16 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/uart-inserted.jpg 2011-12-09 16:25 wpwrak: but i do not suppose it is possible to connect the serial console of the Ben through this microcontroller? 2011-12-09 16:25 (i was looking for a hassle-free way of connecting to Ben's serial console) 2011-12-09 16:27 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 16:28 ah .. no, that's for giving the ben an interface to talk serial to something else, not for giving access to the console. well, unless perhaps you have two bens ;) 2011-12-09 16:29 :p 2011-12-09 16:29 but could the SDIO interface present itself as ttyS, in theory? 2011-12-09 16:37 yes, it probably could. you'd have to bit-bang it, though. and timing is hairy 2011-12-09 16:39 * kristianpaul remebers bit-banging uart in pic16f84 2011-12-09 16:39 better stick to the testpoints then 2011-12-09 16:40 i thought i read somewhere that the exposed testpoints in the battery compartment share GPIO lines with the keyboard though, is that correct? 2011-12-09 16:42 bit-bang support inside kernel may be usefull then 2011-12-09 16:51 ttyl! :: goes home for the weekend :: 2011-12-09 16:52 penguinhead left #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 17:05 kristoffer joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 18:05 erikkugel joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 18:33 Ayla joined #qi-hardware 2011-12-09 18:38 seen incredibly nifty scope probes today: shaped like a Y of 10cm height, with rubber feet at the 2 "upper" ends, and a pogo-pin like a stork bill 90° "into the table" from the lower end of the Y. the bill was made of transparent plastic and had colored LED to identify the probe and to illuminate the PCB area with the testpoint where the whole Y-probe would contact to by own weight 2011-12-09 18:40 that sounds clever indeed 2011-12-09 18:49 how are those probes grounded ? 2011-12-09 18:56 connected to a 1GHz scope with a special coax+power+$X cable 2011-12-09 18:57 the cable enters at one of the feet, well near it - IIRC 2011-12-09 18:58 the structure of the Y is made from ~15mm diameter black tubes. I didn't dare to touch, so can't say how much they weigh or what material the Y is made of 2011-12-09 18:59 the scope itself was some brand I never heard before, and it's been "tiny", size of a large shoebox 2011-12-09 18:59 but with a fan ;-D 2011-12-09 19:01 what was the brand name ? 2011-12-09 19:01 and only 1 GHz ? now i'm a bit disappointed ;-) 2011-12-09 19:04 http://www.lecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=48 2011-12-09 19:09 you have never heard of lecroy ? 2011-12-09 19:09 I haven't heard of a lot of brands 2011-12-09 19:10 I'm not exactly into market studies 2011-12-09 19:10 the lecroys look cute. i wonder if their "density" display (number of beam passes changes color) is really as good as it looks on their pictures 2011-12-09 19:11 ah, but lecroy are pretty well-known. sort of #3 after tek and agilent 2011-12-09 19:11 can't find the friggin Y-probes. Wonder if they were genuine LeCroy 2011-12-09 19:11 ]]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 2011-12-09 19:11 WUT 2011-12-09 19:11 oope 2011-12-09 19:11 sorry 2011-12-09 19:11 :-P 2011-12-09 19:25 HEY, finally: http://cdn.lecroy.com/files/manuals/hfp1000-om-e_rev_f.pdf 2011-12-09 19:32 pretty cool 2011-12-09 19:33 indeed 2011-12-09 19:40 damn, all this nice nifty lab equipment around me and I'm tied to that friggin WinXP workstation all day, studying ClearCase with proprietary extensions, even worse OUTLOOK (BLAAAARRRGHHHH!!!) 2011-12-09 19:40 ;-))) 2011-12-09 19:40