2011-11-28 00:09 _whitelogger joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 00:09 Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb  802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
2011-11-28 00:40 aw joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 00:40 aw_ joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 00:59 erikkugel joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 01:04 emeb joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 01:17 Openfree` joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 01:34 tonghuix joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 02:01 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 02:02 <wolfspraul> good morning
2011-11-28 02:10 <kristianpaul> morning
2011-11-28 02:11 <wolfspraul> I saw your planet post, but I didn't fully understand it :-)
2011-11-28 02:11 <kristianpaul> :-|
2011-11-28 02:12 <kristianpaul> Well, i was trying to give a technical update
2011-11-28 02:12 <wolfspraul> well don't worry, I liked it
2011-11-28 02:12 <wolfspraul> yeah but what was the main point?
2011-11-28 02:12 <kristianpaul> namuru integration on M1
2011-11-28 02:12 <kristianpaul> MM*
2011-11-28 02:13 <wolfspraul> maybe the post was a little dry, I didn't see screenshots or any sort of results/text snippets from the machine room
2011-11-28 02:13 <wolfspraul> so I didn't get it
2011-11-28 02:13 <wolfspraul> but it's great that you are alive, that comes across well :-)
2011-11-28 02:13 <kristianpaul> yeah i tought on that (screenshots)
2011-11-28 02:13 <wolfspraul> I think people read this kind of thing reverse
2011-11-28 02:13 <wolfspraul> limited time
2011-11-28 02:13 <wolfspraul> so they look for the results first
2011-11-28 02:13 <kristianpaul> yes i know
2011-11-28 02:14 <wolfspraul> if the results are interesting, they will read about how things got there
2011-11-28 02:14 <wolfspraul> but your post has no results, as far as I could see
2011-11-28 02:14 <wolfspraul> maybe deeper inside somewhere, but 99% of readers will never go search
2011-11-28 02:14 <kristianpaul> yes
2011-11-28 02:14 <wolfspraul> anyway, all fine. I was happy to see the post!
2011-11-28 02:15 <kristianpaul> sure, i just wanted to drop a technical update nothing full of results indeed :)
2011-11-28 02:15 <kristianpaul> next post will have some plots for sure :)
2011-11-28 02:15 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 02:22 wej joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 02:36 <rejon> arg, still having some problem getting my milkymist onto the net
2011-11-28 02:36 <rejon> from F16
2011-11-28 02:39 <wolfspraul> Sebastien just committed some improvements in how DHCP works
2011-11-28 02:48 xiangfu joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 02:50 <rejon> i meant nanonote
2011-11-28 02:55 <kristianpaul> i guess the network-managet annoys a bit because the new usb0 devices
2011-11-28 02:58 <rejon> not sure...i reached my limit with trying
2011-11-28 03:08 Guest45677 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 03:08 aw_ joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 03:41 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 03:49 freakazoid0223 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 03:59 rejon joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 05:09 zear joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 05:10 aw_ joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 05:10 aw joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 05:17 AwAyla joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 05:22 DocScrutinizer joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 05:30 panda|x201 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 06:10 xiangfu joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 06:37 rejon joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 07:20 stefan_schmidt joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 07:23 jekhor joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 08:20 Guest74167 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 08:21 aw_ joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 08:38 AwAyla joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 09:33 jivs joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 09:41 rejon joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 09:55 jekhor joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 10:17 jekhor_ joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 10:44 kristianpaul joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 11:17 jivs joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 11:25 wejp joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 11:34 aw_ joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 11:34 aw joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 11:43 rzk joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 12:05 woakas joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 12:27 jivs joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 13:12 rejon joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 13:34 rejon joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 13:38 urandom__ joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 13:47 whitequark joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 13:49 wolfspraul joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 13:51 kristoffer joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 15:01 <DocSalarySlave> *sigh*
2011-11-28 15:02 <kristianpaul> First week of work? :-)
2011-11-28 15:03 <wolfspraul> hah
2011-11-28 15:03 <wolfspraul> how is it going?
2011-11-28 15:07 antgreen joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 15:19 aisa joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 15:42 kuribas joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 15:44 emeb joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 15:55 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 15:55 <wpwrak> DocSalarySlave: harsh treatment ? :)
2011-11-28 15:56 <DocSalarySlave> Thursday 1. day
2011-11-28 15:57 <kristianpaul> *g*
2011-11-28 15:57 <kristianpaul> worst :)
2011-11-28 15:58 <wpwrak> ah, so you're not a slave yet
2011-11-28 15:58 <DocSalarySlave> I am, on holiday
2011-11-28 15:58 <wpwrak> still enjoying freedom. facing the certainty of its end. greek tragedy couldn't set it up better.
2011-11-28 15:59 <DocSalarySlave> anyway FWIW, farnell doesn'T seel to individuals, but a nice CR-lady called me and told me  www.hbe-shop.de will do, and has all the farnell stuff
2011-11-28 16:00 <blogic> DocSalarySlave: nice link
2011-11-28 16:09 <rejon> wpwrak, is the code for ubb-vga in latest nanonote image?
2011-11-28 16:12 <wpwrak> hm, dunno. probably not
2011-11-28 16:12 <wpwrak> i think the number of people who have one of these boards is very very very low :)
2011-11-28 16:13 <rejon> man, if i can't get my m1 working to present images, I'm going to figure out something
2011-11-28 16:13 <wpwrak> all i know is that it's not zero. but i don't know if it's > 1 :)
2011-11-28 16:13 <rejon> I don't do slides anymore, so need novel way to use my m1 to present
2011-11-28 16:15 <rejon> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/APPS
2011-11-28 16:16 <wpwrak> ;-))
2011-11-28 16:16 <wpwrak> i'd quickly forget about HTML5 :) different world
2011-11-28 16:17 <rejon> its the concept
2011-11-28 16:17 <rejon> simple set of rules to make embedded apps
2011-11-28 16:17 <rejon> i'm clearing off my notes too
2011-11-28 16:17 <wpwrak> the people who actually do something on the nanonote will be geek enough to handle traditional environments
2011-11-28 16:17 <wpwrak> the weaklings who need HTML5 won't even touch that platform
2011-11-28 16:18 <wpwrak> it's a different set of motivations that leads to different sets of tools and expectations
2011-11-28 16:18 <rejon> not just thinking about nanonote
2011-11-28 16:18 <rejon> longer term
2011-11-28 16:19 <rejon> what about no screen?
2011-11-28 16:19 <rejon> how to make simple apps
2011-11-28 16:19 <wolfspraul> if you would write a new manual now, for a command line tool, what format would you use?
2011-11-28 16:19 <rejon> anyway
2011-11-28 16:19 <wolfspraul> a) man
2011-11-28 16:19 <wolfspraul> b) info
2011-11-28 16:19 <wolfspraul> c) html
2011-11-28 16:19 <wolfspraul> ok, we add this for werner:
2011-11-28 16:19 <wolfspraul> d) text
2011-11-28 16:19 <wpwrak> longer term, maybe. but that's hard to tell. and we don't need to drive it
2011-11-28 16:19 <wpwrak> e) LaTeX
2011-11-28 16:20 <rejon> ha
2011-11-28 16:20 <rejon> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/APPS
2011-11-28 16:20 <rejon> updated with note
2011-11-28 16:20 <wolfspraul> that's what you use for your command line tools? should I check?
2011-11-28 16:20 <wolfspraul> I doubt you actually do that
2011-11-28 16:20 <rejon> goal: make a simple dev. environment to get the most developers to create apps
2011-11-28 16:20 <rejon> might even add simple apps
2011-11-28 16:20 <wolfspraul> if you really face the actual decision, you will either use plain text nowadays, or if it does need some formatting/linking you will use simple hand-written html
2011-11-28 16:21 <wpwrak> most of the time i use plain text and let someone else worry about formatting
2011-11-28 16:21 <wolfspraul> I would not write a new manual page in man or info anymore - why. makes no sense. html is simple and far more future proof.
2011-11-28 16:21 <wpwrak> i used nroff (man) a few times
2011-11-28 16:21 <wpwrak> and yes, i do have a sizeable manual in latex, complete with a script that converts it into ascii :)
2011-11-28 16:21 <wpwrak> (lilo)
2011-11-28 16:22 <kristianpaul> so far the only app i noticed was developed for jsut nanonote was nanoterm (C?) and nanomap (Qt)
2011-11-28 16:22 <wolfspraul> yes that was 20 years ago
2011-11-28 16:22 <wpwrak> i also did latex to rfc (internet standards), etc.
2011-11-28 16:22 <wpwrak> the formats haven't changed much
2011-11-28 16:22 <wpwrak> and there is latex2html
2011-11-28 16:24 <wpwrak> rejon: i think you're trying too much to follow the buzz. those developers who hunger for fashionable tools will develop for iphone or android. they don't exist in our universe.
2011-11-28 16:24 <rejon> wpwrak, its just a wiki page :)
2011-11-28 16:24 <rejon> i have to clear out my ideas
2011-11-28 16:24 <rejon> get feedback
2011-11-28 16:24 <wpwrak> rejon: and if they wander here, they will be strangers. and hopefully act accordingly. (if not, i.e., if they come here with the expectations that everyone will bow to them, good riddance)
2011-11-28 16:25 <rejon> that is the most that has been done on this *project* to date
2011-11-28 16:25 <wpwrak> rejon: we're still short a good SDK for traditional languages, though
2011-11-28 16:25 <wpwrak> even developing in C is still messy. well, with openwrt. it's better with jlime.
2011-11-28 16:27 <blogic> wpwrak: how is coding with in owrt messy ?
2011-11-28 16:27 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: some man pages nowadays are just pre-formatted text. no longer nroff. and the text comes from  tool --help  or similar
2011-11-28 16:27 <blogic> do you know the git-src thing ?
2011-11-28 16:27 <rejon> wolfspraul, where should we file issues against the qi and sharism website?
2011-11-28 16:27 <rejon> is there a project for that?
2011-11-28 16:27 <rejon> should get some rigor to these projects with a real plan and roadmap
2011-11-28 16:27 <wpwrak> blogic: the makefile changes are more invasive. for jlime, all you usually need to do is change CC
2011-11-28 16:28 <blogic> ok
2011-11-28 16:29 <wolfspraul> rejon: sorry still no RT
2011-11-28 16:29 <rejon> wolfspraul, the projects issue tracker is good enough
2011-11-28 16:29 <rejon> imo
2011-11-28 16:29 <rejon> just use that
2011-11-28 16:29 <wolfspraul> use it
2011-11-28 16:30 <wolfspraul> even if we finally have rt, we can migrate issues
2011-11-28 16:30 <rejon> wolfspraul, i'm happy we met with those people about a router
2011-11-28 16:30 <rejon> that helped me close out one of my ideas
2011-11-28 16:30 <wolfspraul> sure its' always good to meet people
2011-11-28 16:30 <rejon> selling a router on principle of fixing internet is PROFITEERING
2011-11-28 16:30 <wpwrak> blogic: also, i'm not sure if openwrt already has installation of packages into the cross-environment. opkg-host. someone may have said it had this now, but i never verified.
2011-11-28 16:30 <rejon> done. closed.
2011-11-28 16:30 <wolfspraul> let's meet with them again in 1 year and see where things stand
2011-11-28 16:32 <blogic> wpwrak: you mean into staging ?
2011-11-28 16:33 <wpwrak> blogic: well, such that new libraries get picked up. don;t remember the name.
2011-11-28 16:33 <wpwrak> blogic: i usually chicken out with openwrt when it gets beyond libc :)
2011-11-28 16:33 <wpwrak> up to and including libc, also openwrt only needs CC to be changed
2011-11-28 16:34 <wpwrak> beyond that, things get messy
2011-11-28 16:34 <wpwrak> i like the simplicity of the concept: "if you want to cross-compile, just specify the name of the new compiler" (or the toolchain, e.g., CROSS=... etc.)
2011-11-28 16:35 <blogic> ok
2011-11-28 16:35 <blogic> you will hit limits with several packages that way
2011-11-28 16:35 <wpwrak> that's easy to convey. it's intuitively clear that *something* needs to change to make a cross-compilation. and CC is pretty obvious. (almost) all the rest are search paths inside CC and friends
2011-11-28 16:35 <blogic> but ok... personaly preference i guess
2011-11-28 16:36 <blogic> i will look at jlime anyhow
2011-11-28 16:36 <wpwrak> yes, i know. e.g., pkg-config spoils that dream :)
2011-11-28 16:36 <blogic> maybe we can scavange some cool featires
2011-11-28 16:36 <blogic> hehe
2011-11-28 16:37 <wpwrak> the main problem of openwrt there is that toolchain and libraries (on the host) live in different hierarchies. if there were in the same hierarchy, things would work as smoothly as in jlime/OE
2011-11-28 16:37 <blogic> ok
2011-11-28 16:37 <blogic> i see what you mean
2011-11-28 16:38 <blogic> i think several owrt folks would argue that the seperation is one of the cool features :D
2011-11-28 16:38 <wpwrak> even things like pkg-config surprisingly often don't care. you may get the wrong hints from there, but it will still work (admittedly by luck and not by design)
2011-11-28 16:38 <wpwrak> yes, i know the arguments from the openwrt side :) but from a user's perspective, i think the preference is quite clear :)
2011-11-28 16:38 <wpwrak> well, user = developer here
2011-11-28 16:39 <blogic> of course
2011-11-28 16:39 <wpwrak> it's the difference between a distribution-specific makefile and a universal makefile (with the allowance for changing CC or having CROSS)
2011-11-28 16:39 <mth> personally I prefer to specify target system (what GNU calls "host"...) and derive the compiler and pkg-config etc commands from that
2011-11-28 16:40 <wpwrak> mth: you mean via autotools ?
2011-11-28 16:42 <wpwrak> (card-carrying member of the autotools hater's guild here, fwiw)
2011-11-28 16:43 <wpwrak> (not as extreme as sebastien, though, who never leaves home without a backpack full of pointy sticks with a silver tip, though)
2011-11-28 16:49 <mth> I mean in general
2011-11-28 16:49 <mth> I'm not a fan of autotools either
2011-11-28 16:50 <mth> imo CC is for overriding the default compiler
2011-11-28 16:51 <mth> whether you do native or cross builds
2011-11-28 16:52 <mth> a default cross compiler would be something like "mipsel-linux-cc", but if you want a different one or don't have the cross compiler in your $PATH you could use $CC to override it
2011-11-28 16:52 <mth> it makes sense to have more than one compiler per target, for example GCC and clang could co-exist
2011-11-28 17:09 Freemor joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 17:14 <qi-bot> Striegel Darley: @qihardware http://t.co/WBuYYMet ( 141203188090023936@striegelqrdwab0 - 3s ago via web )
2011-11-28 17:18 Ayla joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 17:20 kristianpaul joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 17:20 kristianpaul joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 17:51 mstevens joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 17:57 nbd joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 18:24 dptech joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 18:26 LunaVorax joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 19:27 LunaVorax joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 19:28 losinggeneration joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 20:14 rzk joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 20:54 dptech joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 21:14 jekhor joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 21:23 erikkugel left #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 22:01 skynet-2000 joined #qi-hardware
2011-11-28 22:28 dvdk joined #qi-hardware