2011-11-20 00:05 <wolfspraul> glad to see the story ended happily :-)
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2011-11-20 01:55 <whitequark> huh
2011-11-20 01:56 <whitequark> where's dvdk? haven't seen him lately
2011-11-20 01:56 <whitequark> I owe him twenty euros. or maybe fifteen...
2011-11-20 02:11 <wolfspraul> whitequark: did you get some UBB?
2011-11-20 02:12 <wolfspraul> whitequark: are you a Twitter user? Can you make a tweet mentioning qi-hardware to see whether it shows up here? :-)
2011-11-20 02:22 <whitequark> wolfspraul: yeah, they've arrived
2011-11-20 02:22 <whitequark> erm...
2011-11-20 02:23 <whitequark> half a year ago, approximately.
2011-11-20 02:23 <whitequark> but the whole bitcoin thing isn't quite easy, and I'm a lazu fucko.
2011-11-20 02:23 <whitequark> *lazy.
2011-11-20 02:24 <whitequark> hm, tweet
2011-11-20 02:24 <whitequark> I could try
2011-11-20 02:24 <whitequark> posted.
2011-11-20 02:25 <qi-bot> Peter Zotov: @qihardware nice job, folks! ( 138080295990726656@whitequark - 20s ago via Tweetings for Chrome )
2011-11-20 02:26 <whitequark> wolfspraul: ahem. you're the one I have been giving twitter advices all the day of 18th  :D
2011-11-20 02:26 <whitequark> or was that night?..
2011-11-20 02:42 <wolfspraul> yes, and I'm learning...
2011-11-20 02:42 <wolfspraul> whitequark: cool, it worked!
2011-11-20 02:42 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-11-20 02:50 <wolfspraul> I think we don't need the stuff in parentheses ( 13808 ... for Chrome )
2011-11-20 03:45 <qi-bot> Qi Hardware: RT @whitequark: @qihardware nice job, folks! ( 138100457611599872@qihardware - 12s ago via HootSuite )
2011-11-20 03:54 <wolfspraul> why is that pinging back to whitequark now? :-)
2011-11-20 05:31 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, how do yuo like jamendo as a source for free (i.e., reusable) music ? seems to have a much larger choice than ccmixter
2011-11-20 05:32 <wolfspraul> yes good
2011-11-20 05:32 <wolfspraul> I wish we have better browsing and download clients on the Ben, that'd be cool
2011-11-20 05:33 <wpwrak> hah, i'm happy enough if it can manage it with the pc :)
2011-11-20 05:34 <wpwrak> s/it/i/
2011-11-20 05:35 <wolfspraul> the browsing/discovery/listening interface on all those sites is bad, imho
2011-11-20 05:35 <wolfspraul> tedious
2011-11-20 05:37 <wpwrak> yes, indeed. it's basically 1) rough search 2) try from 1-N
2011-11-20 05:38 <wolfspraul> hah, Jon would love this
2011-11-20 05:38 <wolfspraul> I go to "top 100 tracks"
2011-11-20 05:38 <wolfspraul> then it says "License this music" (PRO)
2011-11-20 05:38 <wolfspraul> I don't want to license it, I want to listen to it, and share with whoever in any way I like :-)
2011-11-20 05:40 <wolfspraul> now I click on 'buy' and I have to answer what it's for: internet, corporate use, ads, short film, documentary, movie, tv program, ...
2011-11-20 05:40 <wolfspraul> argh :-)
2011-11-20 05:40 <wpwrak> yeah, they suggest you need their pro service. but you can just search for music and filter out the NC/ND/etc. stuff anyway :)
2011-11-20 05:40 <wpwrak> "advanced search"
2011-11-20 05:41 <wolfspraul> bah, enough
2011-11-20 05:41 <wolfspraul> closed the site :-)
2011-11-20 05:42 <wolfspraul> one day someone needs to scrape all truly free content from them and others, and bring to one really great free tunes site
2011-11-20 05:42 <wolfspraul> the key is to make that place a great place for musicians to upload, experiment, share
2011-11-20 05:42 <wolfspraul> let's make a site that allows the creation of electronic music online
2011-11-20 05:43 <wolfspraul> the whole music creation interface should be in the browser, and the music is naturally stored 'in the cloud' (=on the server), and freely available to anyone
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2011-11-20 05:46 <wpwrak> you could perhaps start a meta-index. collect all the keywords, tags, bpm, licensing terms, instruments, whatever, and link in more or less direct ways to the place with the music
2011-11-20 05:47 <wpwrak> and i somehow don't see that much potential for an "always-on" browser-based studio :)
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2011-11-20 06:21 <rjeffries> On Twitter I posted a tweet to @qi-hardware wonder when or if it will show up here?
2011-11-20 06:23 <rjeffries> guess I'll check baclog tomorrow
2011-11-20 06:24 <rjeffries> s/bac/back
2011-11-20 07:31 <DocScrutinizer> err what? twitter "posts" showing up on IRC? :-o
2011-11-20 07:35 <DocScrutinizer> God beware
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2011-11-20 09:18 <vladislavkorotne> hi guys :) is there any way to change the usb device mode to mass storage etc. without having to rebuild the kernel? is there a way for it at all?
2011-11-20 09:22 <wolfspra1l> he
2011-11-20 09:23 <wolfspra1l> it's one of the big wish-list items
2011-11-20 09:23 <wolfspra1l> make usb client easily switchable between networking, storage, usb-midi, soundcard, keyboard, mouse :-)
2011-11-20 09:23 <wolfspra1l> maybe just a whole virtual usb hub with all this behind?
2011-11-20 09:23 <kyak> wolfspra1l: no more stuff in parentheses
2011-11-20 09:23 <wolfspra1l> but I don't think as of right now much of this works
2011-11-20 09:25 <wolfspra1l> kyak: great!
2011-11-20 09:26 <wolfspra1l> do you know why Ron Jeffries tweet did not show up? I think it's because he said he posted to #qi-hardware (with dash)
2011-11-20 09:26 <wolfspra1l> but I think our account is just #qihardware (without dash)?
2011-11-20 09:29 <kyak> i dunno where he posted, but i don't see his post in web interface :)
2011-11-20 10:22 <C-Keen> wolfspra1l: to enable mass_storage (or file_storage) one needs to build and load the respective gadget module
2011-11-20 10:23 <vladislavkorotne> btw i heard there is a web-interface for file upload in the latest image, however it seems i am either connecting to a wrong port/url or httpd/whatever isnt running :/
2011-11-20 10:24 <wolfspra1l> web interface for file upload? what do you mean?
2011-11-20 10:24 <wolfspra1l> C-Keen: yes, but as I said I want a super easy way to just switch between devices
2011-11-20 10:25 <wolfspra1l> of course the devil is in the details, as always
2011-11-20 10:25 <wolfspra1l> for example waht should usb-storage mount? maybe a loop device pointing back to a file?
2011-11-20 10:25 <C-Keen> wolfspra1l: as in a UI wrapper around modprobe and rmmod?
2011-11-20 10:25 <vladislavkorotne> upload files via web-browser instead of sftp (at least I remember kristianpaul said something like this)
2011-11-20 10:25 <wolfspra1l> C-Keen: as in something that actually makes sense for a regular user :-)
2011-11-20 10:25 <wolfspra1l> upload to where?
2011-11-20 10:26 <vladislavkorotne> to NanoNote
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2011-11-20 10:49 <vladislavkorotne> do i need to change anything except this http://d.pr/SiXm to build the NanoNote toolchain?
2011-11-20 10:50 <C-Keen> wolfspra1l: well IIRC mass_storage can also work on a whole partition so you could just reexport the root partition or the home partition or a special storage partition
2011-11-20 10:50 <C-Keen> wolfspra1l: but I agree there needs to be some kind of concept
2011-11-20 10:54 <wolfspra1l> reexport root partition?
2011-11-20 10:55 <wolfspra1l> what if both sides want to read or write at the same time?
2011-11-20 10:55 <wolfspra1l> maybe you would need some kind of mode to switch, but that's ugly
2011-11-20 10:55 <wolfspra1l> needs more thought, yes
2011-11-20 10:55 <wolfspra1l> but in theory we are getting closer :-)
2011-11-20 10:55 <wolfspra1l> also usb-midi would be another nice client/gadget type, now that we deal with Milkymist One so much
2011-11-20 10:56 <vladislavkorotne> yep :)
2011-11-20 10:57 <vladislavkorotne> btw do the said gadget modules build in default configuration?
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2011-11-20 11:07 <wolfspra1l> good question, don't know :-)
2011-11-20 11:07 <wolfspra1l> I think this is the kernel config http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/latest/kernel.config
2011-11-20 11:08 <wolfspra1l> USB_MIDI_GADGET is not set
2011-11-20 11:08 <vladislavkorotne> i see
2011-11-20 11:08 <wolfspra1l> mass storage also not I think
2011-11-20 11:08 <vladislavkorotne> i wonder how much it'll take to build the toolchain
2011-11-20 11:09 <wolfspra1l> like I said, several pieces missing to make this work out of the box
2011-11-20 11:09 <wolfspra1l> have you tried the binaries first?
2011-11-20 11:09 <vladislavkorotne> of what?
2011-11-20 11:09 <vladislavkorotne> toolchain?
2011-11-20 11:09 <wolfspra1l> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/latest/
2011-11-20 11:09 <wolfspra1l> of the toolchain
2011-11-20 11:09 <vladislavkorotne> i'm on a mac ;)
2011-11-20 11:09 <wolfspra1l> oh
2011-11-20 11:09 <wolfspra1l> virtualbox? :-)
2011-11-20 11:10 <vladislavkorotne> [*] Build the OpenWrt SDK                                           │ │
2011-11-20 11:10 <vladislavkorotne> │ │ [*] Build the OpenWrt based Toolchain
2011-11-20 11:10 <vladislavkorotne> are these the only ones i need?
2011-11-20 11:10 <wolfspra1l> I don't know, haven't built anything in a while
2011-11-20 11:10 <vladislavkorotne> noo, virtualbox is not what i would want to run constantly
2011-11-20 11:11 <vladislavkorotne> i have a separate Powermac that can run debian, but still i'll need to build it for powerpc and also it's slower than my core2duo macbook :P
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2011-11-20 11:17 <vladislavkorotne> hope i have configured it right, have no spare 12 hours for a complete build lol
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2011-11-20 15:02 <vladislavkorotne> hello everyone once again, I got an idea of an iTunes-like Sync Center for the NanoNote, but I don't know how to make GUI Linux apps, so is it ok if I write it in RealBasic? P
2011-11-20 15:02 <vladislavkorotne> :P*
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2011-11-20 15:04 <kristianpaul> as soon as can run in linux based systems..
2011-11-20 15:04 <vladislavkorotne> but the RealStudio is not open D
2011-11-20 15:04 <vladislavkorotne> D:*
2011-11-20 15:04 <vladislavkorotne> something stuck in the keyboard's ; key :/
2011-11-20 15:05 <C-Keen> the nanonote is open hardware and will distribute only free software with it
2011-11-20 15:05 <vladislavkorotne> i mean, i will make the REALBasic source open, but the app to compile it isnt open
2011-11-20 15:08 <kristianpaul> so is a trap !! :-)
2011-11-20 15:09 <wpwrak> vladislavkorotne: what other programming languages do you know ? Python ? C ? adding GUIs is often easier than you may expect. but BASIC is basically non-existent in the unix world
2011-11-20 15:09 <vladislavkorotne> Objective-C
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2011-11-20 15:11 <kristianpaul> any one had experience good coroutines library?
2011-11-20 15:11 <kristianpaul> oops, forgot library part
2011-11-20 15:12 <qwebirc61613> in C?
2011-11-20 15:12 <kristianpaul> yes
2011-11-20 15:12 <whitequark> and I guess for MIPS
2011-11-20 15:12 <whitequark> do you know if makecontext/setcontext work?
2011-11-20 15:13 <kristianpaul> no
2011-11-20 15:13 <whitequark> checking that shouldn't be so hard
2011-11-20 15:13 <whitequark> hm
2011-11-20 15:13 <vladislavkorotne> well, i'll start to make it for Mac and then porting it over will be just a matter of GUI :P
2011-11-20 15:13 <vladislavkorotne> *starts Terminal*
2011-11-20 15:13 <vladislavkorotne> See ya later!
2011-11-20 15:13 <whitequark> kristianpaul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setcontext
2011-11-20 15:13 <whitequark> it's even in wiki
2011-11-20 15:14 <whitequark> kristianpaul: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1696214/is-this-a-good-way-for-unconditional-jump/1696242#1696242
2011-11-20 15:15 <whitequark> either of these should be fine as a test
2011-11-20 15:16 <wpwrak> vladkorotnev_awa: C is a good start. there are several choices there. the ones i know are Gtk (powerful but not so easy to get started with) and SDL (simple and friendly)
2011-11-20 15:16 <wpwrak> vladkorotnev_awa: there's also GeodeFX (reborn as MTK), which may be the easiest of all of them, but it's a rare bird
2011-11-20 15:17 <vladkorotnev_awa> @wpwrak GTK doesn't work on Mac/Windows. Probably a Windows/Linux alternative would be Qt. But Nothing's better for Mac than a native ui :)
2011-11-20 15:17 <whitequark> vladkorotnev_awa: gtk does work on Windows
2011-11-20 15:17 <whitequark> ie pidgin
2011-11-20 15:17 <whitequark> not sure about Mac, but it works with X server. Not good, through
2011-11-20 15:18 <vladkorotnev_awa> Mac has X
2011-11-20 15:18 <vladkorotnev_awa> but it's sorta weird
2011-11-20 15:18 <whitequark> X is never good.
2011-11-20 15:18 <whitequark> it's freaking weird by design.
2011-11-20 15:19 <wpwrak> vladkorotnev_awa: Qt is C++. if C++ is an option, you also have wxWidgets, which is a popular choice for cross-platform development
2011-11-20 15:19 <vladkorotnev_awa> probably
2011-11-20 15:20 <whitequark> wpwrak: last time I've seen them, wxwidgets looked like tk
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2011-11-20 15:21 <whitequark> ah, that's for ben
2011-11-20 15:21 <wpwrak> whitequark: i try to avert my eyes quickly when i see C++ ;-)
2011-11-20 15:21 <vladkorotnev_awa> Could anyone please send the Ben symbol here? :P
2011-11-20 15:21 <whitequark> 本 NanoNote
2011-11-20 15:21 <vladkorotnev_awa> whitequark: thanks
2011-11-20 15:25 <whitequark> np
2011-11-20 15:26 <kristianpaul> whitequark: found this http://www.xmailserver.org/pcl.html :-)
2011-11-20 15:49 <kuribas> whitequark: I have a book about programming in X, and it all looks pretty logical (for its time).
2011-11-20 15:50 <kuribas> I would use the EFL (enlightenment.org) for programming.  I am adapting the current widget theme for a small screen.
2011-11-20 15:51 <kuribas> It's open source, and it's also made for embedded use.
2011-11-20 15:52 <kuribas> And it works on several backends, the framebuffer, SDL, X, etc...
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2011-11-20 15:57 <vladkorotnev_awa> Take that, iTunes! http://d.pr/N29l
2011-11-20 15:59 <vladkorotnev_awa> do you like it? :)
2011-11-20 16:00 <kristianpaul> nice
2011-11-20 16:00 <vladkorotnev_awa> kristianpaul: thx :)
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2011-11-20 16:07 <whitequark> kristianpaul: looks good
2011-11-20 16:08 <whitequark> kuribas: X is a collection of badly made modules which are barely glued together with a duct tape and weren't updated from 1986 or so
2011-11-20 16:09 <whitequark> it may have some good but entirely theoretical concepts, which are completely unapplicable in the world as it is, with 3D graphics, compositing, and stuff
2011-11-20 16:09 <whitequark> and it _does_ work bad in practice
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2011-11-20 16:15 <kyak> whitequark: do you use it right now? :)
2011-11-20 16:22 <whitequark> kyak: X? yes. and I hate it. Every time I switch to my WinXP in a VM it feels like it's three times faster to respond to mouse movement
2011-11-20 16:22 <whitequark> can't wait for working Wayland in Debian
2011-11-20 16:31 <vladkorotnev_awa> is there mDNSResponder for NanoNote?
2011-11-20 16:31 <vladkorotnev_awa> that's the overall concept: http://d.pr/4EjE
2011-11-20 16:32 <vladkorotnev_awa> like it? :P
2011-11-20 16:40 <kristianpaul> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2011-November/014486.html Worth a quick read, altought the thread topic is education i think it fit in our goals a bit too
2011-11-20 16:43 <kristianpaul> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2011-November/014499.html
2011-11-20 17:02 <kyak> whitequark: my point is, that X has no alternative at the moment. And blaming X won't help.
2011-11-20 17:02 <kyak> and it wil be really funny when people won't get what they expect from Wayland
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2011-11-20 17:03 <Ayla> what do you mean?
2011-11-20 17:03 <kristianpaul> *g*
2011-11-20 17:05 <kyak> i mean, what will be the next subject for blaming?
2011-11-20 17:07 <Ayla> it's not a problem of blaming
2011-11-20 17:08 <kyak> yeah, it's a problem of "colored carpet" which is Linux
2011-11-20 17:08 <Ayla> X is too old in its design
2011-11-20 17:08 <kyak> not this talk again...
2011-11-20 17:08 <Ayla> you don't think it's true?
2011-11-20 17:08 <Ayla> the same goes to ALSA for instance
2011-11-20 17:20 <lars_> and posix! ;)
2011-11-20 17:26 <kuribas> It's funny, the book I am reading states: "_Xlib_ has, as of this writing, been stable for several months, and is expected to have a useful lifetime of three to five years."
2011-11-20 17:26 <kuribas> It's from 1988
2011-11-20 17:29 <lars_> and people have only stoped using xlib in the last 2-3 years
2011-11-20 17:29 <kuribas> But reading about it, it doesn't seem so badly designed, and you don't need twenty extention modules on an embedded device.
2011-11-20 17:29 <kuribas> It's mostly gnome/gtk which is bloated.
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2011-11-20 18:14 <wpwrak> kuribas: yeah. for most things, you don;t even know X is there. most of the complains are about some ancient things that are indeed hardly used anymore. but then, they don't get in the way either. it's kinda like digging up some corpses and then complaining that some people in this city have a really foul smell, and thus concluding they all stink.
2011-11-20 18:16 <wpwrak> i don't know all that much about X internals, but i've seen this for years in TCP. every few months, some brilliant chap dreams up some "vastly improved" replacement (sic !) for TCP. and they almost get rid of some "unnecessary complexity".
2011-11-20 18:19 <kristianpaul> suck less fever? :-)
2011-11-20 18:19 <lars_> the problem with X is it still works good _enough_
2011-11-20 18:20 <kristianpaul> like my procmail :)
2011-11-20 18:21 <wpwrak> with most of these proposals, you already know why they can't work when you finish reading the paper. quite often, they make assumptions about the surrounding world that aren't true. particularly in the ATM area, a lot of interesting megalomaniac ideas (along with TCP replacements) have been hatched.
2011-11-20 18:21 <viric> I agree with lars_
2011-11-20 18:21 <viric> lars_: but avoiding xlib, you mean, using libxcb?
2011-11-20 18:21 <lars_> yes
2011-11-20 18:21 <lars_> a lot of projects are using libxcb these days
2011-11-20 18:22 <viric> let me see how much of them I have
2011-11-20 18:22 <lars_> also toolkits have stopped using XWindows for everything except the main window
2011-11-20 18:23 <wpwrak> lars_: it seems that things have pretty much quieted down. there was a new feature frenzy some time ago, with 3D and multimedia, but you don't hear much excitement about that now. seems that they found designs and protocols that work, and have placed suitable rugs to hide any ugliness under.
2011-11-20 18:23 <viric> i only have toolkits using libxcb
2011-11-20 18:24 <viric> but my libX11 depends on libxcb :)
2011-11-20 18:24 <whitequark> X is now definitely obsolete
2011-11-20 18:24 <whitequark> it does not serve its original purpose
2011-11-20 18:25 <whitequark> at all
2011-11-20 18:25 <whitequark> it's just a thin layer that gets a pixmap on one side of pipe, puts it at the other
2011-11-20 18:25 <whitequark> and we don't actually need all that arcane madness to handle the simple task
2011-11-20 18:25 <lars_> wpwrak: and as a protocol for window managers
2011-11-20 18:26 <wpwrak> lars_: yup. big feature.
2011-11-20 18:26 <whitequark> lars_: well, yes, I will miss my awesome WM a bit
2011-11-20 18:26 <whitequark> it has been a real pain to make a sane interface on top of X protocol, through
2011-11-20 18:27 <whitequark> for the awesome devs I mean
2011-11-20 18:29 <lars_> whitequark: but you can't simply replace X with something else, because you won't have any working apps
2011-11-20 18:30 <lars_> except you provide a compatibility layer
2011-11-20 18:33 <whitequark> lars_: you have Qt and GTK
2011-11-20 18:34 <whitequark> and writing a backend for both of them is a doable task
2011-11-20 18:34 <lars_> yes
2011-11-20 18:34 <whitequark> later you can get something like Xnest (or Xvfb, or whatever) to render to your replacement, but it's second priority
2011-11-20 18:35 <lars_> you are quite lucky in the case of X, because not many apps are using it directly
2011-11-20 18:35 <kuribas> X windows was meant to be low level, even fom the start.
2011-11-20 18:35 <whitequark> and that's a reason for them not using it directly, indeed
2011-11-20 18:35 <whitequark> *there is
2011-11-20 18:35 <lars_> replacing libc for example would be a bit harder
2011-11-20 18:35 <whitequark> it was done, several times
2011-11-20 18:36 <whitequark> you have uclibc which works for most apps, at least
2011-11-20 18:36 <whitequark> maybe something else
2011-11-20 18:36 <lars_> uclibc has the same api as libc
2011-11-20 18:36 <whitequark> ah, in this sense
2011-11-20 18:36 <lars_> well uclibc is a libc
2011-11-20 18:37 <whitequark> you may as well replace posix with winapi
2011-11-20 18:37 <whitequark> heh, at least you'll get real async io.
2011-11-20 18:37 <wpwrak> lars_: (not many using it directly) which of course also means that they don't care whether they run on X or anything else. nice logic. it's the one politicians use :)
2011-11-20 18:38 <whitequark> wpwrak: in this case it isn't anything bad
2011-11-20 18:39 <wpwrak> "we will introduce full-body x-ray scanners at airports. nobody, except for those few who use them, will be affected by them."
2011-11-20 18:41 <whitequark> they're not x-ray afaik (or else everyone will be affected, won't them?) that's some kind of far IR, at least that's what a reference says about terahertz range
2011-11-20 18:41 <whitequark> does not change the meaning, through.
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2011-11-20 18:43 <wpwrak> oh, i just picked x-ray as a technology you wouldn't want to have there for obvious reasons. the others have other issues, and are harder to explain :)
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2011-11-20 19:36 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: rtems patches: added new UART and IRQ rearrangement, plus include fix (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/58da15e
2011-11-20 20:03 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: m1/tools/m1nor: flash a file to M1 NOR partition selected by the file name (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6dc6174
2011-11-20 20:17 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: m1/tools/README: m1nor description (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/ba5a392
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2011-11-20 23:23 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: m1nor: "pld reconfigure" at then end, to properly exit fjmem (suggested by Michael Walle) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/bf6c207
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