2011-11-15 01:40 <kristianpaul> hey this evil http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:M1rc3_0x46_AB21_ball.png 
2011-11-15 01:43 <wpwrak> fun ;-)
2011-11-15 07:06 <wpwrak> alright :)
2011-11-15 07:06 <wpwrak> so ... today's topic is: is the ben a dying platform ... or not ? :)
2011-11-15 07:06 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-11-15 07:06 <wolfspraul> is Ron here?
2011-11-15 07:07 <wpwrak> i'll play advocatus diabolis :)
2011-11-15 07:07 <wolfspraul> last I saw him he just dumped a few more off-topic links and left right away :-)
2011-11-15 07:07 <roh> wolfspraul: i think ingenic is the wrong tree to bark on. soc vendors basically never are good at doing sw
2011-11-15 07:07 <wolfspraul> he
2011-11-15 07:07 <wolfspraul> that may be, I don't know, but I can very much understand your point
2011-11-15 07:07 <wolfspraul> that's why I put half my energy behind Ben, half behind Milkymist
2011-11-15 07:08 <roh> good soc support/drivercode comes from people who know not one vendor, but 10 and how their hw works, register wise. people working for vendors have a much too limited view on the field. they only know in-house concepts it seems sometimes
2011-11-15 07:08 <wpwrak> roh: i think wolfgang is barking up that tree just for R&D financing. hopefully getting enough to pay for hw and sw :)
2011-11-15 07:08 <wolfspraul> I think many soc makers will quit, yes
2011-11-15 07:09 <wolfspraul> TI is supposedly trying to sell OMAP for years
2011-11-15 07:09 <roh> wpwrak: that would be nice, sure. but then they also need to deliver some soc which is atleast a class better than whats in ben
2011-11-15 07:09 <wpwrak> but ... at the moment, the ben's prospect doesn't look rosy. work on the software has dwindled to a trickle.
2011-11-15 07:09 <wolfspraul> nvidia has never sold in retail
2011-11-15 07:09 <wolfspraul> marvell is moving in a similar direction
2011-11-15 07:09 <wolfspraul> they are in a difficult spot
2011-11-15 07:09 <wpwrak> there is no new hardware in sight.
2011-11-15 07:10 <roh> wolfspraul: i just had a marvell develboard tablet clone on my desk. android, very badly made, low end crap.. but still >600bogomips
2011-11-15 07:10 <wpwrak> roh: maybe TI would then be a better tree ? they may want to hear some barking
2011-11-15 07:10 <wolfspraul> way too big
2011-11-15 07:10 <roh> i cannot see them making real money on that. one lawsuit and there is no return of investment for that product anymore.
2011-11-15 07:10 <wolfspraul> if TI is lucky, Amazon helps them beat their OMAP business in shape for a sale
2011-11-15 07:10 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: first there needs to be a business opportunity
2011-11-15 07:11 <wpwrak> (too big) TI or the OMAP ?
2011-11-15 07:11 <roh> wpwrak: no. ti doest 'their thing' ... i don't believe in their recent change of heart. also the hw is much too complicated for making new designs from scratch
2011-11-15 07:11 <wpwrak> the biz opportunity could be design wins to rub under people's nose
2011-11-15 07:11 <wolfspraul> I am fairly relaxed about the ben
2011-11-15 07:12 <wpwrak> how's the user base growing ? ;-)
2011-11-15 07:12 <wolfspraul> I sell maybe 5-10 a month
2011-11-15 07:13 <wpwrak> talk about exclusive :)
2011-11-15 07:13 <wolfspraul> but when I lean back and think, what I want to work on is kicad, boom, mechanical, better collaboration with Ingenic
2011-11-15 07:14 <wolfspraul> the software has a lot of room for improvement if we are able to upstream more, polish, fix loose ends, etc.
2011-11-15 07:15 <wpwrak> so, half a wolfgang and half a xiangfu, working on the revenue from 5-10 bens per month. let's say the ben's margin is 50%. that's USD 500 at best. can wolfgang and xiangfu live on EUR 1000 per month, shared ?
2011-11-15 07:15 <wolfspraul> the memory, pixel resolution and mhz constraints don't bother me that much right now because they will lift up everything once we make a device with bigger specs, and if we have to go to Milkymist first, it's a protection against expecting too much from Milkymist
2011-11-15 07:15 <wolfspraul> oh, my math is different
2011-11-15 07:15 <wpwrak> the problem of the ben is that it's getting stale. like bread.
2011-11-15 07:16 <wolfspraul> first there are tons of businesses loosing money with Android
2011-11-15 07:16 <wolfspraul> how much longer do they want to do that?
2011-11-15 07:16 <wolfspraul> we see
2011-11-15 07:16 <wolfspraul> then, there are tons of other businesses that want to move software stacks into their existing non-computing products
2011-11-15 07:16 <wolfspraul> they are all potential customers
2011-11-15 07:17 <wolfspraul> we cannot make the Ben a great smartphone (or tablet), but that's clear to everybody I think
2011-11-15 07:17 <wpwrak> look at the vibrant community: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/irc-qihw-1011.png  the trend of the red line is pretty clear
2011-11-15 07:17 <wpwrak> the mailing list is even worse
2011-11-15 07:17 <wolfspraul> afraid of silence? :-)
2011-11-15 07:18 <wpwrak> so you're advertizing the ben's software to current android makers ?
2011-11-15 07:19 <wpwrak> (silence) i;d like the silence of people busily working. but this is the silence of a ghost town
2011-11-15 07:20 <wpwrak> of course, you can keep the ben on life support for a while
2011-11-15 07:20 <wpwrak> indefinitely, if you want. even if all development stops, you can still claim it's supported. on hold. whatever.
2011-11-15 07:20 <wpwrak> and you;ll still have a crate of bens you could sell
2011-11-15 07:21 <wolfspraul> so... next question is: where is the next opportunity reusing Ben tech?
2011-11-15 07:21 <wpwrak> and you can probably pay for the webshop indefinitely from your "day job". so it becomes a hobby.
2011-11-15 07:21 <wpwrak> a ya ?
2011-11-15 07:22 <wolfspraul> I need to find out whether there is any way to active Ingenic or not.
2011-11-15 07:22 <wpwrak> people are putting some ben tech on other 4740-based devices, dingoo and such, but i don't know if that's very popular
2011-11-15 07:23 <wpwrak> and, while it's a nice service to that community, it doesn't help sharism to finance new nanonotes (or something else)
2011-11-15 07:23 <wolfspraul> s/active/activate/
2011-11-15 07:23 <wpwrak> activating ingenic sounds good :)
2011-11-15 07:23 <wolfspraul> but unlikely to work
2011-11-15 07:23 <wpwrak> it there any chance of this happening ?
2011-11-15 07:23 <wpwrak> ah :)
2011-11-15 07:23 <wolfspraul> I doubt it
2011-11-15 07:23 <wpwrak> that much about ingenic-as-investor
2011-11-15 07:24 <wolfspraul> I think there is a higher chance to do something outside of the classical computer industry.
2011-11-15 07:24 <wpwrak> back to ti ? :) they may be interested. show the world how easy it is to make stunning new nanonotes with an omap.
2011-11-15 07:24 <wolfspraul> no way
2011-11-15 07:24 <wolfspraul> actually I sold a Ben to them once when they were looking for a way to advertise omap4
2011-11-15 07:24 <wpwrak> social networking ? no hw needed :)
2011-11-15 07:25 <wolfspraul> I guess the Ben featured proudly in 1 meeting and was then discarded :-)
2011-11-15 07:25 <wolfspraul> there are less and less ways to finance proprietary software investments
2011-11-15 07:25 <wpwrak> about 0.08% of your customer base. it's a start ;-)
2011-11-15 07:25 <wolfspraul> that removes a large source of innovation from many companies
2011-11-15 07:26 <wolfspraul> so we have to look for opportunities for the NanoNote tech outside of classical tech companies, imho
2011-11-15 07:26 <wpwrak> well, we may still see the fall of modern capitalism. but that's a different topic :)
2011-11-15 07:26 <wpwrak> so where would the nanonote tech go ?
2011-11-15 07:27 <wpwrak> what would it do ? what would those companies do with it ?
2011-11-15 07:27 <wpwrak> and how do you even reach them ?
2011-11-15 07:27 <wolfspraul> I thought about a simple touch midi controller the other day, just as an idea.
2011-11-15 07:27 <wpwrak> maybe that 47xx thingie in playboy could have been a nanonote project
2011-11-15 07:27 <wolfspraul> no battery, no wifi
2011-11-15 07:27 <wpwrak> but how would playboy ever find qi-hw ?
2011-11-15 07:28 <wolfspraul> just usb powered, boots into capacitive touch controller app
2011-11-15 07:30 <wolfspraul> I can only describe my current Ben plans:
2011-11-15 07:30 <wpwrak> like this one ? http://www.icon-global.com/ShowPro.aspx?ID=136
2011-11-15 07:30 <wolfspraul> 1. continue selling and supporting the Ben NanoNote
2011-11-15 07:31 <wolfspraul> 2. try to help with upstreaming, polishing, porting apps, fixing bugs, adding features, coming out with new software releases
2011-11-15 07:31 <wolfspraul> 3. prepare/remove some blockers for future products, especially mechanical related
2011-11-15 07:32 <wpwrak> creating a new product costs money. for a midi controller, you also need to ensure great compatibility with the proprietary software people use, ableton and friends.
2011-11-15 07:32 <wolfspraul> 4. keep looking for business opportunities (customers or investors) that could help define the exact specs of the Ya and then go for it
2011-11-15 07:32 <wolfspraul> not if we mainly sell it with m1 :-)
2011-11-15 07:32 <wpwrak> 1-3 are life support. 4 is the important one
2011-11-15 07:33 <wolfspraul> they connect together. supporting customers is no life support.
2011-11-15 07:33 <wpwrak> m1 itself is a difficult basis. you're creating a niche for a niche.
2011-11-15 07:33 <wolfspraul> sure
2011-11-15 07:33 <wolfspraul> it could be the wrong bet, same as the NanoNote
2011-11-15 07:33 <wolfspraul> but I very happily takes those bets, I think you do too, no? :-)
2011-11-15 07:33 <wolfspraul> the other day Jon and I were a little frustrated sitting somewhere
2011-11-15 07:34 <wolfspraul> then I asked him to imagine that we work for resolume.com sales
2011-11-15 07:34 <wolfspraul> and we have to sell some crappy tiny new features in our crappy proprietary software to so and so many customers before the end of the month
2011-11-15 07:34 <wpwrak> maybe 10-20 m1 in active use. in half a year you'll have your controller. let's say 25% of the m1 users will want one (the rest will long have bought something else). so that's maybe 5 units you'll sell.
2011-11-15 07:34 <wolfspraul> felt better right away :-)
2011-11-15 07:35 <wolfspraul> I described my action items.
2011-11-15 07:35 <wolfspraul> what are the alternatives you have in mind?
2011-11-15 07:35 <wpwrak> the midi controler doens't make sense if you don't want to go beyond m1 with it
2011-11-15 07:35 <wolfspraul> if the Amazon Fire would be available in Germany, I would have gotten one for my parents as Christmas gift :-)
2011-11-15 07:36 <wolfspraul> I will continue on this product path, it feels and is exactly right.
2011-11-15 07:36 <wolfspraul> nanonote, m1, then we see
2011-11-15 07:36 <wolfspraul> if others have better things to do - great
2011-11-15 07:36 <wpwrak> alternatives: first and foremost, find financing for finishing m1. i don't think you can complete the project without putting more money on the table. and i don't think your own pockets are deep enough.
2011-11-15 07:37 <wolfspraul> Jon pushed me about speakers earlier this year, which I totally dismissed. until suddenly HTC shelled out 500+ million (!) usd for "dr. dre's beats"
2011-11-15 07:37 <wpwrak> getting m1 rolling will also buy you time
2011-11-15 07:37 <wolfspraul> yes agree
2011-11-15 07:37 <wolfspraul> we are on the same page about making our stuff big
2011-11-15 07:37 <wolfspraul> instead of a hobby
2011-11-15 07:37 <wolfspraul> screw hobby
2011-11-15 07:37 <wolfspraul> but if you complain about silence and such - that doesn't worry me, a true contrarian :-)
2011-11-15 07:38 <wolfspraul> silence means something good is happening
2011-11-15 07:38 <wpwrak> (speakers) well, one lucky company among probably hundreds :) and they may have been at it for decades
2011-11-15 07:38 <wolfspraul> the herd is always the herd. when we are the herd we have a few years left and then it's over.
2011-11-15 07:38 <wolfspraul> no, I think this is a brilliant move
2011-11-15 07:39 <wpwrak> i'm afraid that in the case of the ben, it simply means that people have left
2011-11-15 07:39 <wolfspraul> wish I still had access to Cher to chat with her about it :-)
2011-11-15 07:39 <wolfspraul> I don't disagree
2011-11-15 07:39 <wolfspraul> 10-20 active users is too low though
2011-11-15 07:39 <wolfspraul> maybe 50-100 I think
2011-11-15 07:39 <wpwrak> or maybe they're still around, but more of habit than because of something else
2011-11-15 07:39 <wolfspraul> Werner - the speaker move is different
2011-11-15 07:39 <wolfspraul> this is not some beggar case
2011-11-15 07:40 <wolfspraul> the tech industry is changing
2011-11-15 07:40 <wolfspraul> phones are dead
2011-11-15 07:40 <wolfspraul> if Amazon Fire becomes a success, tablets are dead too
2011-11-15 07:40 <wolfspraul> PCs are dead, notebooks are dead
2011-11-15 07:40 <wolfspraul> where's the innovation?
2011-11-15 07:40 <wpwrak> (speakers) sure. it's a profitable biz. at least for some. but the htc windfall is pretty unique.
2011-11-15 07:40 <wolfspraul> no
2011-11-15 07:41 <wolfspraul> I think partially they buy channel, they buy access to channel that is used to lower-margin and lower-cost products.
2011-11-15 07:41 <wolfspraul> because the phones of the future will cost 50 USD
2011-11-15 07:41 <wolfspraul> of the near future
2011-11-15 07:42 <wpwrak> let's wait and see how long tablets stay fashionable as "pc killers". most likely, they'll keep the casual and highly mobile segment. but i don't see them as more than a fad in the office.
2011-11-15 07:42 <wolfspraul> people pay more for their headphones now than for their phone!
2011-11-15 07:42 <wolfspraul> the sources of money towards innovative ideas change
2011-11-15 07:42 <wolfspraul> we need to find the new sources, not chase the old ones
2011-11-15 07:42 <wpwrak> yes, many things now simply get commodized
2011-11-15 07:43 <wolfspraul> me and Jon are on this
2011-11-15 07:43 <wpwrak> indeed. no tablets :)
2011-11-15 07:43 <wpwrak> retro is an option. the nanonote fits that segment.
2011-11-15 07:44 <wpwrak> go to places the herd has already vacated and where some new grass has grown since.
2011-11-15 07:44 <wolfspraul> I am surprised that it seems the openpandora guys in germany were able to get a 350k EUR investment for their next round of production attempts
2011-11-15 07:44 <wolfspraul> by going directly to their community and asking for private investments
2011-11-15 07:44 <wolfspraul> great move!
2011-11-15 07:44 <wpwrak> maybe you should try that for M1 :)
2011-11-15 07:44 <wolfspraul> I really hope they can deliver this time
2011-11-15 07:44 <wolfspraul> definitely that's an option
2011-11-15 07:45 <wolfspraul> but I don't want to burn through other peoples money unless everybody is clear about the risks
2011-11-15 07:45 <wolfspraul> did you see the latest dr. schaller announcement?
2011-11-15 07:45 <wolfspraul> he will real-soon-now have some gta04 boards
2011-11-15 07:45 <wolfspraul> and selling them for 666 EUR
2011-11-15 07:46 <wolfspraul> how about elphel? are they able to move forward from the 353 to 373 as planned for years? so far - not yet.
2011-11-15 07:46 <wolfspraul> I think we need to look for opportunities outside this...
2011-11-15 07:47 <wpwrak> maybe what you really need to do is find someone who has fewer scruples than you. then that person can take care of finding the financing ;-)
2011-11-15 07:47 <wolfspraul> sure, possible
2011-11-15 07:47 <wolfspraul> that person can happily take all files that we are sharing, right?
2011-11-15 07:47 <wpwrak> that too :)
2011-11-15 07:47 <wolfspraul> since afaik I hold nothing back, it's all there...
2011-11-15 07:47 <roh> hm. i somehow dont like the speakers thing. pa stuff is a tricky market. and the stuff is heavy (shipping expensive) and not something people put into their homes (well.. pa != hifi by far)
2011-11-15 07:48 <wolfspraul> I won't get into speakers now
2011-11-15 07:48 <wpwrak> but you'd be surprised by how hard it is to get people to steal from you
2011-11-15 07:48 <wpwrak> that is, unless you make a big fuss about protecting your valuables
2011-11-15 07:48 <roh> dont like as in 'i dont think thats something to make money out of' ... rather something one does as a hobby (building speakers from parts, and wood.. with time)
2011-11-15 07:48 <wolfspraul> roh: I just mentioned it because the Dr. Dre's Beats purchase by HTC surprised so many people
2011-11-15 07:48 <wolfspraul> let's say 'everyone'
2011-11-15 07:48 <wolfspraul> read the tech press - nobody gets it
2011-11-15 07:48 <wolfspraul> neither do I... but then - why did they do it?
2011-11-15 07:48 <wolfspraul> crazy?
2011-11-15 07:48 <wolfspraul> cool brand?
2011-11-15 07:48 <wolfspraul> no way
2011-11-15 07:49 <roh> wolfspraul: i dont know what htc purchased exactly. is that hw?
2011-11-15 07:49 <wolfspraul> you try to get 500 million USD from a bean counter...
2011-11-15 07:49 <roh> seems more like a marketing spin to me
2011-11-15 07:49 <wolfspraul> you probably don't even know that brand :-)
2011-11-15 07:49 <wolfspraul> yep
2011-11-15 07:49 <wolfspraul> we are all in tech asylum...
2011-11-15 07:49 <wolfspraul> there's a world out there, and in that world people are paying 180 - 600 USD for their *headphones*
2011-11-15 07:51 <wolfspraul> since phone prices are collapsing, that's a smart move to keep the business healthy. make the money not from the phone, but from the headphone you are able to upsell to x% of your phone customers
2011-11-15 07:51 <wpwrak> maybe we should make vibrators. customers should be willing to pay a premium for good quality and an extraordinary user experience.
2011-11-15 07:51 <wolfspraul> I talk about real things, not speculation.
2011-11-15 07:52 <wpwrak> put a chip inside, add wireless, than it can be programmed. maybe add remote control. though i think this has already been done
2011-11-15 07:52 <wolfspraul> so there is no Ya NanoNote that simply upticks all specs, that's true. afaik nobody works on that.
2011-11-15 07:52 <wolfspraul> but the Ben NanoNote tech is very much alive as the basis for the next product, imho
2011-11-15 07:52 <wpwrak> i think the main spec a ya should uptick is the openness
2011-11-15 07:53 <wolfspraul> yes
2011-11-15 07:53 <wolfspraul> mechanical mainly
2011-11-15 07:53 <wolfspraul> lower volume, easier and more interesting customization for anybody
2011-11-15 07:53 <wpwrak> yes, mechanical is still a big black hole for us
2011-11-15 07:53 <wolfspraul> I want to look into aluminum lasering and milling, long-term plan but eventually I'll get to it.
2011-11-15 07:54 <roh> wolfspraul: dont misinterpret a stupidness of loud and (in total numbers) not hat important hipsters
2011-11-15 07:54 <wpwrak> ideally a ya wouldn't have to be economically successful. develop it to the point where it can function as a product, but don't kill yourself over trying to sell it.
2011-11-15 07:54 <wolfspraul> with m1 we've learnt a lot about acrylic, and that's good. but aluminum could be promising too.
2011-11-15 07:54 <wpwrak> if it sells, great. if not, the knowledge is value enough.
2011-11-15 07:54 <wolfspraul> roh: I'm talking about financial power to finance innovation.
2011-11-15 07:54 <wpwrak> of course, to pull that off, you need something even rarer than investors: sponsors
2011-11-15 07:54 <wolfspraul> you cannot finance innovation with 50 USD products, nobody can
2011-11-15 07:55 <roh> i dont know anybody paying 600us$ for headphones. i know people paying some hundred (well.. anything below 60E is a toy), but thats nothing new but because its a real tool (djs, people who work with that stuff)
2011-11-15 07:55 <wolfspraul> either if the volume is low you have no chance to recoup your investment, or if the volume has to be high you cannot take risks on any serious innovation that may be misunderstood (i.e. not sell)
2011-11-15 07:55 <roh> wolfspraul: if you want to sell stuff, dont build something expensive and special. build something ubiquitous, which everybody would want and can use
2011-11-15 07:55 <wolfspraul> people pay thousands of USD for headphones :-)
2011-11-15 07:56 <wolfspraul> do you know how many do that?
2011-11-15 07:56 <wpwrak> that's why i'd hope for a context for the ya where it doesn't have to be a commercial success
2011-11-15 07:56 <wolfspraul> I don't
2011-11-15 07:56 <wolfspraul> but that's risky
2011-11-15 07:56 <wolfspraul> see that's my point
2011-11-15 07:56 <wpwrak> low risk. if you find sponsorship, you're good :)
2011-11-15 07:56 <wolfspraul> we may be overlooking easier access to financing innovation
2011-11-15 07:56 <wolfspraul> because we are stuck in what Jon nicely calls the dudeloop
2011-11-15 07:56 <wpwrak> yes, social networking :)
2011-11-15 07:56 <roh> maybe you should think about using something like kickstarter... well.. its only for us people but maybe there is a clone who also likes europe and asia
2011-11-15 07:57 <wolfspraul> roh: how many people buy a > 300 USD headphone per year?
2011-11-15 07:57 <roh> wolfspraul: non i know of.
2011-11-15 07:57 <wpwrak> the wireless cpubrator would kinda get us out of the dudeloop ...
2011-11-15 07:57 <wolfspraul> how many people buy a > 1000 USD headphone per year?
2011-11-15 07:57 <wolfspraul> oh I don't know the answers either
2011-11-15 07:57 <roh> 300E headphones work for years and you get spareparts (beyerdynamics, sennheiser, etc)
2011-11-15 07:57 <wolfspraul> but at least I feel uneasy about that and want to know :-)
2011-11-15 07:57 <wolfspraul> yes
2011-11-15 07:58 <wpwrak> one good thing about audio is that it appeals to almost everyone. so the potential market is huge. and even the craziest niches may be big enough to survive.
2011-11-15 07:58 <roh> we agree that we dont want to build crap, right? so we build stuff which people do not need to buy multiple times, if its not a) cheap and b) makes sense to own multiple ones.
2011-11-15 07:58 <wolfspraul> what I can tell you after some years in hardware now is that it is nearly impossible to make an innovative new hardware product if the absolute price of the product is too low
2011-11-15 07:59 <wpwrak> and with headphones, it's always the same basic product. whether they're USD 1 or 10k
2011-11-15 07:59 <roh> so i think we need something simple, which makes sense to own more than one, which is cheap enough to give away as a gift and it needs to be practical
2011-11-15 07:59 <roh> maybe you need something like a twitter client on ben and wifi on it
2011-11-15 08:00 <wolfspraul> if the typical computing categories are all destroyed from a pricepoint perspective, then we need to look for categories outside of the traditional computer industry
2011-11-15 08:00 <roh> wolfspraul: i think embedded hw is outside that already.. its rather 'CE'
2011-11-15 08:00 <roh> consumer electronics
2011-11-15 08:00 <wolfspraul> I had a realization one day in a restaurant that the steak in front of me cost more than a cheap Android wifi touchphone.
2011-11-15 08:01 <wolfspraul> I chewed on that for a while ;-)
2011-11-15 08:01 <wolfspraul> (mentally)
2011-11-15 08:02 <wolfspraul> then I realized that I simply have to get my head out of dead or dying categories.
2011-11-15 08:02 <roh> ack. i also dont see any sense in competing with that markets
2011-11-15 08:02 <wolfspraul> not that I can claim I have found any gold yet...
2011-11-15 08:03 <roh> maybe we should draw a map and cross off stuff till we see whats left
2011-11-15 08:03 <wolfspraul> I'm helping a friend with a LED lamp power supply right now
2011-11-15 08:03 <wolfspraul> nothing serious just responding to a call of duty
2011-11-15 08:03 <wolfspraul> maybe I learn something
2011-11-15 08:03 <roh> btw.. thats why i do my own homebus devices. everything existing is locked in and not really practical or extensible
2011-11-15 08:04 <roh> or horribly expensive
2011-11-15 08:04 <wolfspraul> homebus?
2011-11-15 08:04 <wolfspraul> yes sure, I can imagine
2011-11-15 08:04 <wolfspraul> one day this open hw stuff we are doing here will really take off
2011-11-15 08:04 <wolfspraul> I am 100% sure about that
2011-11-15 08:04 <roh> home automatisation. from switching lights to audiosystem integration and controlling beamers and motors
2011-11-15 08:04 <wolfspraul> but how and when and where - not so sure
2011-11-15 08:05 <wolfspraul> the Ben NanoNote did not take off the way it is, no need to sugarcoat that
2011-11-15 08:05 <wolfspraul> but it remains as an alive pioneering platform
2011-11-15 08:05 <roh> true.
2011-11-15 08:05 <wolfspraul> so let's see...
2011-11-15 08:05 <roh> my bet the major problem there is connectivity
2011-11-15 08:06 <wolfspraul> even if only 2 people are left active, they have a chance to change the world :-)
2011-11-15 08:06 <wolfspraul> don't know
2011-11-15 08:06 <wolfspraul> to compete with what?
2011-11-15 08:06 <wolfspraul> with the Android storm?
2011-11-15 08:06 <roh> i mean.. i could imagine little girls using it as chat devices if not offline only
2011-11-15 08:06 <wolfspraul> the smartphone that integrated 1 gazillion features?
2011-11-15 08:06 <roh> comptete with the android bottlestorm
2011-11-15 08:06 <wolfspraul> of course more features would be nice
2011-11-15 08:07 <roh> or in generic with the price battle for mediocre lock-in stuff
2011-11-15 08:07 <wolfspraul> more memory, more pixel resolution, usb host, atben, etc.
2011-11-15 08:07 <roh> wolfspraul: all nice. but even with the current spec we could sell loads more devices if you only add ip
2011-11-15 08:08 <wolfspraul> ip?
2011-11-15 08:08 <roh> eh. as in tcp-ip. and i fear as nice as it is, atben is not the solution for 'normal customers' but geeks
2011-11-15 08:12 <roh> atleast thats the showstopper for every usecase i or somebody else comes up with
2011-11-15 08:13 <wolfspraul> I use my notebook to create Ben connectivity
2011-11-15 08:14 <roh> well.. what do i need the ben for then? i already got a linuxcomputer with screen and kbd already then
2011-11-15 08:14 <wolfspraul> and actually, we have far too few good software on it now utilizing connectivity, that's one area where I hope we improve a little to have a better starting point once we have the connectivity
2011-11-15 08:14 <wolfspraul> much more portable
2011-11-15 08:14 <roh> i personally would pack it when i go out and have no notebook with me if it would have connectivity
2011-11-15 08:15 <roh> as mobile ssh terminal
2011-11-15 08:15 <wolfspraul> then you would want 3g?
2011-11-15 08:15 <roh> nope. i got wifi at enough places
2011-11-15 08:15 <wpwrak> roh: you're not thinking big enough. important people have personal assistants, bodyguards, drivers. so these can tote the laptop, while the VIPs just have the Ben ;-)
2011-11-15 08:16 <roh> wpwrak: too nice. and still needs cables -> not practical -> unrealistic
2011-11-15 08:16 <wolfspraul> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20123652-47/the-best-headphones-in-the-world/
2011-11-15 08:17 <roh> connectivity needs to work without the need for additional devices around (no external wifi sticks, usbcables etc)
2011-11-15 08:17 <wpwrak> roh: your underlings can also handle the cables for you ;-)
2011-11-15 08:18 <wpwrak> "The $10,000 amp is a magnificent work of industrial design, and it's handcrafted in NYC."
2011-11-15 08:18 <wolfspraul> so "the headphone market is expanding at rapid rate"
2011-11-15 08:18 <wolfspraul> aha
2011-11-15 08:18 <wolfspraul> we dismiss that?
2011-11-15 08:18 <wolfspraul> bullshit
2011-11-15 08:18 <wolfspraul> marketing
2011-11-15 08:18 <wolfspraul> idiot cool kids
2011-11-15 08:18 <wolfspraul> any other dismissal ideas?
2011-11-15 08:19 <wolfspraul> what's happenign to the notebook market?
2011-11-15 08:19 <roh> wolfspraul: dont get off-set by high-end audio crazies.
2011-11-15 08:19 <wolfspraul> hmm
2011-11-15 08:19 <wolfspraul> no no
2011-11-15 08:19 <wolfspraul> just an example
2011-11-15 08:19 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: how are your ME skills ? ;-)
2011-11-15 08:19 <roh> whats happening? nothing. serious business notebooks still are at 1500-2000euro
2011-11-15 08:20 <wolfspraul> here's another thought I had the other day
2011-11-15 08:20 <roh> nothing new. you only get faster stuff with more ram etc. but you still shell out the 4000deutschmark ;) every 3-5 years for the same level of quality
2011-11-15 08:20 <wolfspraul> I know, because I was there. In the 1980's, regular professionals, dads with families, saved for months (!) to be able to buy a "home computer".
2011-11-15 08:21 <wolfspraul> for 2000 USD
2011-11-15 08:21 <wolfspraul> then they bought peripherals, for 500-1000 USD each maybe
2011-11-15 08:21 <wolfspraul> how many such people existed in the 80's?
2011-11-15 08:21 <wolfspraul> hundreds of thousands, millions
2011-11-15 08:21 <wolfspraul> so why on earth did they do that?
2011-11-15 08:21 <wpwrak> the good old days, when china was still a distant mysterious country :)
2011-11-15 08:21 <wolfspraul> what could they do with those "home computers"?
2011-11-15 08:21 <roh> nah.  you overestimate
2011-11-15 08:22 <wolfspraul> these people helped finance the PC revolution/innovation
2011-11-15 08:22 <wolfspraul> I think the money is still the same nowadays, but it goes elsewhere
2011-11-15 08:22 <roh> most people had real low end stuff. i know nobody who had a 'new computer' in the 90s even. we all scraped stuff together from siblings, aunts, uncles etc.. used hw from businesses...
2011-11-15 08:22 <wolfspraul> if we come out with a 2000 USD 'open' smartphone, we sell 200 of it, worldwide
2011-11-15 08:23 <C-Keen> would buy one
2011-11-15 08:23 <roh> business financed the pc revolution. having machines only half as expensive as before because there were more than one vendor for a change which supplied isa cards
2011-11-15 08:23 <wolfspraul> C-Keen: :-)
2011-11-15 08:23 <wolfspraul> I know we would have a good chance at findings those few crazy guys :-)
2011-11-15 08:23 <valhalla> imho there is a big difference between "standalone connectivity", "connectivity with a small stick" and "connectivity only through a device that does everything the nn does, but better"
2011-11-15 08:24 <wolfspraul> my point was that the people and money still exist
2011-11-15 08:24 <wolfspraul> but the money goes elsewhere now
2011-11-15 08:24 <wpwrak> to patent trolls ;-)
2011-11-15 08:24 <C-Keen> wolfspraul: I have had a openmoko at my former job but it was a bit disappointing, as the processor was underpowered for almost all UIs there were (and it had some serious HW bugs)
2011-11-15 08:25 <wolfspraul> which I cannot even complain about
2011-11-15 08:25 <wolfspraul> so the way to kick new life into the NanoNote is to find a new business opportunity
2011-11-15 08:25 <roh> maybe?
2011-11-15 08:25 <C-Keen> the nanonote is dead ? :)
2011-11-15 08:25 <wolfspraul> C-Keen: sure I can understand
2011-11-15 08:25 <roh> make it sync with exchange ;)
2011-11-15 08:26 <roh> *ducks*
2011-11-15 08:26 <wolfspraul> buy one at https://sharism.cc
2011-11-15 08:26 <C-Keen> wolfspraul: but I learned that not making the HW part is difficult and expensive, but manufacturing an actual working casing is
2011-11-15 08:26 <C-Keen> wolfspraul: *another* one?
2011-11-15 08:27 <wolfspraul> and two atben so they can talk
2011-11-15 08:27 <wolfspraul> just for the heck of it
2011-11-15 08:27 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-11-15 08:27 <roh> wpwrak: if its a usb question.. have you asked CareBear\ ?
2011-11-15 08:27 <C-Keen> ;)
2011-11-15 08:27 <wolfspraul> roh: do you know anything about aluminum milling/lasering/etc ?
2011-11-15 08:28 <roh> only a bit
2011-11-15 08:28 <C-Keen> wolfspraul: so business with sharism.cc is not going too well?
2011-11-15 08:28 <roh> i have never lasered metal, so i dunno that. i milled aluminium (simple stuff)
2011-11-15 08:29 <wolfspraul> C-Keen: hard to say, what exactly do you want to know?
2011-11-15 08:29 <wolfspraul> I'm happy :-)
2011-11-15 08:30 <wolfspraul> business is never really going well, right? :-)
2011-11-15 08:30 <wpwrak> roh: so far, we'd need someone with a good dose of clairvoyance :) it's simply that nothing happens.
2011-11-15 08:30 <wolfspraul> I am focusing on selling 2 products - Ben NanoNote and Milkymist One
2011-11-15 08:30 <C-Keen> wolfspraul: I wanted to know whether you are happy :)
2011-11-15 08:30 <wolfspraul> I sell maybe 5-10 nanos a month
2011-11-15 08:30 <wolfspraul> m1 hard to say, just launched. since launch sold about 40, but none in the last week.
2011-11-15 08:31 <C-Keen> well that's quite a lot considering it is a bit of a niche product
2011-11-15 08:31 <wolfspraul> none of this is a real cash generating business, for sure
2011-11-15 08:31 <wolfspraul> you want one? :-)
2011-11-15 08:31 <wolfspraul> 499 USD + shipping
2011-11-15 08:31 <wolfspraul> and then...
2011-11-15 08:31 <wolfspraul> THE LEARNING EXPERIENCE
2011-11-15 08:31 <wolfspraul> invaluable
2011-11-15 08:32 <wolfspraul> you will wake up with new realizations each day :-)
2011-11-15 08:32 <wolfspraul> your life will never be the same again! you should try!
2011-11-15 08:32 <C-Keen> sounds too good to be true!
2011-11-15 08:32 <C-Keen> ;)
2011-11-15 08:32 <wolfspraul> yep
2011-11-15 08:32 <wolfspraul> make yourself a christmas gift...
2011-11-15 08:32 <wolfspraul> seriously I love the product
2011-11-15 08:33 <wolfspraul> whether it will be a 'success' or not is too early to tell
2011-11-15 08:33 <wolfspraul> we try
2011-11-15 08:33 <wolfspraul> I think it deserves a fair shot
2011-11-15 08:33 <wolfspraul> Werner has been doing such incredible work that I need longer than all EU countries to pay off my intellectual debts to him
2011-11-15 08:33 <C-Keen> ;)
2011-11-15 08:33 <wpwrak> considers issuing bonds
2011-11-15 08:34 <wolfspraul> there's a lot of things you cannot learn or realize unless you get your hands dirty
2011-11-15 08:34 <wolfspraul> otherwise you stay at the Ron-level (sorry Ron :-))
2011-11-15 08:34 <C-Keen> this applies to almost everything
2011-11-15 08:34 <C-Keen> learning is doing
2011-11-15 08:34 <wolfspraul> in that sense M1 is a wonderful experience and I cannot complain having sold so many units by now
2011-11-15 08:34 <wolfspraul> 100% of rc2, and 50% of rc3 by now
2011-11-15 08:34 <wolfspraul> who could expect more
2011-11-15 08:35 <wolfspraul> so I am very happy, really
2011-11-15 08:35 <C-Keen> will there be another revision of the nanonote?
2011-11-15 08:35 <wolfspraul> he
2011-11-15 08:35 <wolfspraul> you ask so innocent :-)
2011-11-15 08:35 <C-Keen> whistles
2011-11-15 08:35 <wolfspraul> that's what started this chat burst
2011-11-15 08:35 <C-Keen> oops
2011-11-15 08:35 <C-Keen> reads backlog
2011-11-15 08:36 <wolfspraul> yes, thanks
2011-11-15 08:36 <C-Keen> sorry, I don't want to troll
2011-11-15 08:36 <wolfspraul> no way
2011-11-15 08:37 <wolfspraul> we have a high troll tolerance here I think
2011-11-15 08:37 <wolfspraul> I challenge you that you cannot beat it
2011-11-15 08:37 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-11-15 08:38 <wolfspraul> protect trolls
2011-11-15 08:39 <C-Keen> what's ingenic?
2011-11-15 08:40 <wolfspraul> the chip maker that makes the CPU in the Ben NanoNote
2011-11-15 08:40 <wolfspraul> www.ingenic.cn
2011-11-15 08:40 <C-Keen> ah
2011-11-15 08:42 <wolfspraul> roh: I think you underestimate the changes in the notebook market since the ipad
2011-11-15 08:42 <wolfspraul> of course tablets may still go away, be a fad, etc. who knows the future...
2011-11-15 08:43 <wolfspraul> but. I can tell you any investment in anything notebook related has a lot more risk alarms going off now, because you have to bet against the tablet hype (real or not).
2011-11-15 08:43 <C-Keen> as I see it, there is a trend back to specialised small (and cheap) devices and general purpose computers will only play a role for geeks and professionals
2011-11-15 08:44 <wolfspraul> I would question the (and cheap)
2011-11-15 08:45 <roh> wolfspraul: ipads arent computers
2011-11-15 08:45 <wolfspraul> Acer for example is hard hit in many ways from all this. I read an interview with their CEO, where he first tries to motivate the entire 'notebook industry' to be more daring and invest in innovation, and then in the same interview he goes on to praise his new line that is more low-cost than before, etc.
2011-11-15 08:45 <C-Keen> well the low end android tablets are ~99 EUR here, for people that want to do webmail and surfing. There people would have bought a ~600 EUR PC before
2011-11-15 08:45 <wolfspraul> that's bizarre
2011-11-15 08:45 <roh> its a toy, nothing to work with seriously outside of management (<5%)
2011-11-15 08:46 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-11-15 08:46 <wolfspraul> management is not serious? :-)
2011-11-15 08:46 <wolfspraul> I think you underestimate this.
2011-11-15 08:46 <roh> i dont think they (tablets) will vanish completely again, but they are quite limited, expensive and only good for low end tasks (resolution and usability wise)
2011-11-15 08:47 <C-Keen> my point is that most consumers are satisfied with low end tasks
2011-11-15 08:47 <roh> tried inputting a text into a tablet before? its hell. regardless if apple, google or expensive or cheap. touchscreens are not keyboards.
2011-11-15 08:47 <wolfspraul> oh I will not get one
2011-11-15 08:47 <wolfspraul> but if the Amazon Fire would be available in Germany now, I would get one as christmas gift for my parents
2011-11-15 08:47 <C-Keen> roh: and I thought typing SMS text on a number keypad is awkward but any teeny on the tram can outperform me there tenfold
2011-11-15 08:48 <roh> management is no market. the mass of devices is bought by the regular joe user, not mr management. remember.. there are thousands of joes for every 'manager'
2011-11-15 08:48 <wolfspraul> they can get started, then a year later buy the next version with camera etc.
2011-11-15 08:48 <wolfspraul> I think notebooks will continue to stay where they are now
2011-11-15 08:49 <wolfspraul> slowly eroding prices
2011-11-15 08:49 <roh> C-Keen: maybe. but i still outperform a teeny on a smartphone even with keys when i got a 84-105 key keyboard and i can still type full real english while the kid uses some kind of abbreviated broken stuff
2011-11-15 08:49 <wolfspraul> but most importantly - nobody will touch anything major in the product anymore
2011-11-15 08:49 <wolfspraul> the supply chain has no money, down to the last participant
2011-11-15 08:49 <C-Keen> roh: I agree, my point is that there are more teenies in the market than people like me and you
2011-11-15 08:49 <roh> wolfspraul: nobody did the last 10 years. so thats nothing new
2011-11-15 08:50 <wolfspraul> yes but people will be bored of notebooks, want something new
2011-11-15 08:50 <roh> wolfspraul: i got notebooks around which are from 1996. they have THE SAME features as new ones. just slower, and less performing
2011-11-15 08:50 <wolfspraul> which the notebook manufacturers will not have
2011-11-15 08:50 <roh> so what?
2011-11-15 08:50 <roh> you remember how lightswitches work? check the 'innovation' there the.. last 100 years. none
2011-11-15 08:51 <roh> does it matter? not really.
2011-11-15 08:51 <wolfspraul> ah yes. agreed. but we are looking for ways to finance innovative hardware, hardware that has complex software stacks inside.
2011-11-15 08:51 <wolfspraul> and I think it will be in embedded somewhere, outside of traditional computer categories.
2011-11-15 08:52 <roh> i think the new thing is that 'stuff communicates'
2011-11-15 08:52 <roh> thats the only change which is new in 'devices'
2011-11-15 08:52 <wolfspraul> and whether you are still so positive about notebooks, let's see in 2-3 years
2011-11-15 08:52 <wolfspraul> maybe they force you to buy a Dell notebook with Windows preinstalled and you have to run Linux in a virtual machine :-)
2011-11-15 08:52 <roh> even ms and apple got that (see daap, dmap, etc... upnp/dlna)
2011-11-15 08:52 <wolfspraul> just kidding, just kidding
2011-11-15 08:53 <wolfspraul> when the money disappears, things can get ugly quick, because lots of people withdraw
2011-11-15 08:53 <C-Keen> at least in my peer group notebooks are drop in replacements for desktops for most people
2011-11-15 08:53 <roh> C-Keen: ack. i also only know a few people using stationary machines now.
2011-11-15 08:53 <wolfspraul> gamers still go for it
2011-11-15 08:54 <wolfspraul> and people that really want the absolute lowest-cost, or has that changed already?
2011-11-15 08:54 <roh> we got 'some few' shared ones (the lasercutter has one, the cnc mill has one... our shared eating table has one) .. but personal machines are all laptops nowadays
2011-11-15 08:54 <roh> wolfspraul: these people use something like an eeepc
2011-11-15 08:55 <roh> lowest-cost includes power. and stationary machines from 2-3 years ago (and everything atx-ish) eats about 200-300W easily
2011-11-15 08:55 <roh> a netbook eats 20W
2011-11-15 08:55 <C-Keen> that has changed wolfspraul, I bought a used thinkpad T61 for 160 EUR, as these machines are being replaced in all companies that used them for 3 years
2011-11-15 08:55 <roh> thats about 30E atleast difference in montly power savings already
2011-11-15 08:55 <roh> C-Keen: good pick. (besides the nvidia gpu) ;)
2011-11-15 08:56 <C-Keen> roh: oh well I live mostily in textland
2011-11-15 08:58 <wolfspraul> ah
2011-11-15 08:58 <wolfspraul> textland
2011-11-15 08:58 <wolfspraul> Jon believes we should make the NanoNote all about console
2011-11-15 08:58 <wolfspraul> he thinks hacking text in console is cool and will attract people
2011-11-15 08:59 <wolfspraul> give them access to the guts...
2011-11-15 08:59 <roh> wolfspraul: maybe not the worst idea. has only quite limited amounts of pixels
2011-11-15 08:59 <roh> but for 'endusers' that will fail
2011-11-15 08:59 <wolfspraul> it's very easy to change in the image, and our console support is quite good
2011-11-15 08:59 <wolfspraul> just saying because C-Keen mentioned textland...
2011-11-15 09:00 <roh> meh. now.. up to the postoffice. need to pick up a letter they wouldnt deliver for some weird reason
2011-11-15 09:07 <wolfspraul> oh
2011-11-15 09:07 <wolfspraul> that was the trick they tried once to arrest me :-)
2011-11-15 09:07 <wolfspraul> didn't work though, I have my 6th sense
2011-11-15 09:08 <C-Keen> what happened?
2011-11-15 09:10 <wolfspraul> disagreement over how to best serve my country :-)
2011-11-15 09:12 <C-Keen> ah :)
2011-11-15 09:14 <wolfspraul> but what I learnt was how easily the postal service sold itself out to cheap tricks like a letter they 'wouldn't deliver for some weird reason', so I was smiling
2011-11-15 09:15 <wolfspraul> good old times (new times are also good :-))
2011-11-15 09:15 <wolfspraul> C-Keen: if you have a NanoNote, what do you use it for?
2011-11-15 09:25 <C-Keen> wolfspraul: note taking, keeping track of expenses while on the road, ogg player and occasionally playing interactive fiction
2011-11-15 09:26 <wolfspraul> not bad
2011-11-15 09:27 <wolfspraul> interactive fiction, hmm
2011-11-15 09:27 <wolfspraul> I wish that ifarchive site would have more easily identifiable free stuff, but alas, they don't
2011-11-15 09:27 <wolfspraul> their worry for freedom stops with themselves :-)
2011-11-15 09:29 <C-Keen> yes
2011-11-15 09:29 <wolfspraul> since you asked about sales earlier, the one thing that is not good yet is that afaik we sold only 1 m1 to a nanonote customer
2011-11-15 09:29 <wolfspraul> I haven't made a real push/outreach to nanonote customers yet, but some should have noticed the m1 by now
2011-11-15 09:29 <C-Keen> m1 = milkymist?
2011-11-15 09:29 <wolfspraul> that goes along Werner's line that the few nanonote users that are hanging out on the list or elsewhere are mostly not interested in new stuff anymore
2011-11-15 09:30 <wolfspraul> yes
2011-11-15 09:30 <wolfspraul> milkymist one, sorry
2011-11-15 09:30 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-11-15 09:30 <wolfspraul> it's a 499 USD product compared to the 99 USD nanonote
2011-11-15 09:30 <wolfspraul> but if we built up some trust, we should be able to sell some m1 to nanonote customers
2011-11-15 09:30 <wolfspraul> so far that was only 1 case
2011-11-15 09:30 <wolfspraul> that is not good
2011-11-15 09:31 <wolfspraul> since the new product is 5 times more expensive, let's say maybe it's even an option only for 10% of nanonote customers
2011-11-15 09:31 <roh> meh
2011-11-15 09:31 <roh> the thing which didnt fit into the mailbox is a vinyl disc from uk *g*
2011-11-15 09:31 <C-Keen> well they are quite different. the nanonote being an inexpensive ultra portable device you could hand out to your kids against a (inexpensive, compared to others) video processing platform
2011-11-15 09:31 <wolfspraul> anyway that's one thing that hasn't worked out
2011-11-15 09:32 <C-Keen> so I can imagine that people that buy a nanonote don't need to be attracted by the m1
2011-11-15 09:33 <valhalla> also, spending 99USD for something you don't have a real use for is one thing, spending 499 USD is another, even if you like the project
2011-11-15 09:33 <C-Keen> that too
2011-11-15 09:33 <roh> i mean.. i like vinyl somehow, sometimes.. its just so ucky to package and ship
2011-11-15 09:34 <valhalla> (not saying that I don't use the NN, it's just that I could have used other devices I already own to do the same things)
2011-11-15 09:34 <C-Keen> valhalla: what do you use it for?
2011-11-15 09:35 <valhalla> mostly to read my (git managed) grocery list while shopping and playing music
2011-11-15 09:36 <C-Keen> oh and freedroid :p
2011-11-15 09:36 <roh> hm. music... bad topic. anybody an idea which music player can handle roughly 250-300gbyte of mp3, flac, ogg etc (stuff gstreamer can decode) music?
2011-11-15 09:36 <valhalla> it's also always in my handbag, and sometimes I take quick notes, or play games while waiting in a unexpected queue
2011-11-15 09:36 <roh> ah.. and for a funny additional thing.. 'sync that back and forth' ;)
2011-11-15 09:36 <valhalla> roh: why is music bad topic?
2011-11-15 09:36 <roh> valhalla: its unsolved. even in proprietary systems (most handle it worse)
2011-11-15 09:36 <C-Keen> roh: I would use unison for syncing and not rely on the music playing software
2011-11-15 09:37 <roh> C-Keen: the issue is not syncing the raw files. its syncing the content, metadata changes etc
2011-11-15 09:37 <roh> i havent seen a working 3-way diff of mp3 file metadata
2011-11-15 09:37 <C-Keen> roh: but the metadata is surely manifested somewhere?
2011-11-15 09:37 <valhalla> I use git annex to sync, and keep oggs on SD and flac on an external hard disk; also I don't really have metadata other than that is embedded in the files
2011-11-15 09:38 <valhalla> and it doesn't change
2011-11-15 09:38 <roh> C-Keen: in a per-fileformat special container.. mp3 its usually id3.. ogg its somewhere in there.. etc.
2011-11-15 09:38 <roh> and it DOES change.. e.g. when i fix tags.
2011-11-15 09:38 <C-Keen> roh: ah I see, you are on your own with that
2011-11-15 09:39 <C-Keen> roh: most syncing software your do a rolling hash and sync the whole file (like rsync)
2011-11-15 09:39 <valhalla> git + git-annex would work if the metadata was in another file (which it isn't)
2011-11-15 09:39 <roh> well.. it fails on the size of my stash already. ive seen itunes etc bail when they try importing it
2011-11-15 09:40 <valhalla> I wonder how hard it would be to add support for ogg metadata in straight git
2011-11-15 09:40 <roh> mmh.. git performs badly with loads of stuff.
2011-11-15 09:40 <valhalla> mostly with big stuff rather than loads of it
2011-11-15 09:40 <roh> i know. i administrated git-servers on which some loonies develop linux kernels ;)
2011-11-15 09:41 <roh> at some point its really a ressource hog. but hey.. compared to what it does its ok
2011-11-15 09:42 <roh> but it _really_ needs memory sometimes.. and it _really_ wants its sockets to be available.. or weird things happen
2011-11-15 09:43 <roh> anyhow... harddisks need to get really expensive to make flash cheap enough for such collections on the go and have fun
2011-11-15 09:44 <roh> btw.. anybody played with usb3 yet?
2011-11-15 09:44 <roh> as in.. is it fun? with linux? does it make disk-io bearable?
2011-11-15 09:44 <bartbes> roh: did you see the prices of hdds lately?
2011-11-15 09:45 <roh> yep. more than doubled
2011-11-15 09:45 <bartbes> well then..
2011-11-15 09:46 <bartbes> also, have you tried mpd?
2011-11-15 09:48 <roh> not by far useable
2011-11-15 09:48 <roh> i currently use rhythmbox and do not own any mobile player.
2011-11-15 09:49 <bartbes> not usable?
2011-11-15 09:49 <bartbes> why?
2011-11-15 09:49 <roh> mpd? shitty userinteface. broken concept about its content 'management'
2011-11-15 09:50 <C-Keen> there is not content management ;)
2011-11-15 09:50 <roh> you see?
2011-11-15 09:50 <bartbes> what management are you looking for then?
2011-11-15 09:50 <bartbes> also, you can't simply judge the ui of a server..
2011-11-15 09:52 <roh> bartbes: basically working daap support.
2011-11-15 09:52 <bartbes> right
2011-11-15 09:53 <roh> i also use it to copy stuff around (you can just dragndrop files from remote daap servers into your local collection
2011-11-15 09:53 <roh> push would be nice... but one cannot have everything
2011-11-15 09:54 <bartbes> the solution is obviously itunes :P
2011-11-15 09:54 <roh> nope. that one can do less (no copying, no proper codec support)
2011-11-15 09:54 <bartbes> ":P" should have told you I was joking
2011-11-15 10:26 <wolfspraul> roh: sorry going back to the earlier chat... please keep us posted about your home automation projects and thoughts
2011-11-15 10:26 <wolfspraul> I think there are many opportunities there, somewhere
2011-11-15 10:26 <wolfspraul> as you said right now there are a lot of locked and/or overly expensive systems, for understandable reasons
2011-11-15 10:27 <wolfspraul> or we all wait until Apple makes the brilliant iHome system and then the whole world is happy
2011-11-15 10:27 <wolfspraul> I think that won't happen, but the smaller manufacturers may struggle getting all the tech pieces together and not having their r&d costs explode
2011-11-15 10:28 <wolfspraul> that's where open hardware can help, if we do it right. we just have to search for the right opportunity, so please holler and share your discoveries
2011-11-15 16:14 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: if you mean that archive.org content is not integrate with any software, you should see/try banshee
2011-11-15 16:15 <kristianpaul> if you mearn in the early chat :)
2011-11-15 16:28 <xiangfu_> there is seems some conflict on ks7010 and 802154 stuff. have to figure out tomorrow. 
2011-11-15 16:28 <xiangfu_> that is the only thing I didn't test more. now it have problem again. 
2011-11-15 17:20 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: wpwrak: thanks for best wirshes, seems it helped :-D
2011-11-15 17:21 <jow_laptop> (win 5
2011-11-15 17:21 <jow_laptop> fail
2011-11-15 17:21 <jow_laptop> sorry
2011-11-15 20:42 <kristianpaul> and not trying to maker an iphoen after this http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=1970 ;-)
2011-11-15 20:42 <kristianpaul> (kidding)