2011-10-24 02:15 windown 1 2011-10-24 02:17 ....ÂºÃ˜Ã®â€žÃŸ 2011-10-24 02:28 check out this open hw project I found: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/upgradeindustries/boardx-the-open-source-miniature-motherboard 2011-10-24 02:40 oh he quit fast 2011-10-24 05:42 jow_laptop: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/Kconfig 2011-10-24 09:45 kyak: the "moc" dependencies look odd 2011-10-24 09:45 kyak: and alex4 is definitevely recursive 2011-10-24 09:46 moc has "depends !(PACKAGE_libncursesw) || PACKAGE_libncurses", "select PACKAGE_libncurses if !PACKAGE_libncursesw" and "select PACKAGE_libncursesw if PACKAGE_libncursesw" 2011-10-24 09:46 no wonder menuconfig is acting weird 2011-10-24 09:59 jow_laptop: alex4 - yea, i know 2011-10-24 10:00 moc has this line: +PACKAGE_libncursesw:libncursesw +!PACKAGE_libncursesw:libncurses 2011-10-24 10:00 yeah, not sure if that is going to work 2011-10-24 10:00 at least it should not result in a "select" directive 2011-10-24 10:00 i think it means "if ncursesw is selected, depend on it; if ncursesw is not selected, depend on ncurses" 2011-10-24 10:01 btw, it was you who suggested to use this dependency like this ;) 2011-10-24 10:01 yeah 2011-10-24 10:02 we need to compe up with something better 2011-10-24 10:03 the easiest fix would be to just make it depend on ncursesw 2011-10-24 10:03 yeah 2011-10-24 10:03 is it possible to utilize CONFIG_BUILD_NLS for this purpose? 2011-10-24 10:03 for exmaple, make CONFIG_BUILD_NLS select ncursesw 2011-10-24 10:04 then we can just +BUILD_NLS:libncursesw +!BUILD_NLS:libncurses 2011-10-24 10:04 yes, that would make sense I suppose 2011-10-24 10:04 I'll discuss it with the other devs 2011-10-24 10:04 sure, thanks 2011-10-24 10:05 before we're hunting ghosts however, can you check whether your menuconfig goes back to normal after "./scripts/feeds uninstall moc libpurple" ? 2011-10-24 10:05 though it was discussed to have a separate flag for wide char support. It could be used then to affect certain options in uclibc, busybox and ncursesw-dependant apps 2011-10-24 10:05 actually I would prefer a separate wide char option too 2011-10-24 10:05 one sec 2011-10-24 10:09 jow_laptop: it behaves well now! :) 2011-10-24 10:09 i also uninstalled mc, which is from qi-packages repo and also using this kind of dependencies 2011-10-24 10:10 https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9786 this ticket, by the way 2011-10-24 10:10 k, I suppose alex4 and mc are easily fixed 2011-10-24 10:10 what is the best way to fix mc now? 2011-10-24 10:11 hm, the only immediate solution I can think of right now is to provide a manual Kconfig snippet which adds a config menu for mc with two choices for wide char or not 2011-10-24 10:12 to havem or control over the dependencies, the autogenerated ones are too verbose 2011-10-24 10:12 oh! 2011-10-24 10:13 for alex4, i think it makes sense to make alex4-data depend on alex4 2011-10-24 10:13 not sure, I usually organize my deps top-down 2011-10-24 10:13 if they both depend on each other, then it doesn't make sense to split the package anyway :) 2011-10-24 10:13 so alex4 depends on alex4-data 2011-10-24 10:14 then someone can install alex4-data without intalling alex4 2011-10-24 10:15 doesn't matter.. i'll do it your way 2011-10-24 10:15 well alex4 needs alex4-data to run 2011-10-24 10:15 alex4-data is usable by itself 2011-10-24 10:16 provided someone indeed only wants the artwork or whatever 2011-10-24 10:16 ..or, someone wants just alex4 and then use his own data or whatever ;) 2011-10-24 10:18 [commit] kyak: alex4: resolve recursive dependency alex4<->alex4-data (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/eb188f7 2011-10-24 10:19 jow_laptop: regarding mc. Should it be soemthing similar to packages/multimedia/ffmpeg/Config.in ? 2011-10-24 10:20 jow_laptop: or, maybe Variants is a better way? 2011-10-24 10:21 not sure 2011-10-24 10:22 I'd use the Config.in approach 2011-10-24 10:22 and make the defaults state there depend on CONFIG_NLS 2011-10-24 10:23 a build variant for mc to merely select the libncurses flavor is probably overkill 2011-10-24 10:24 ok.. i'll try it with mc. If it works fine, similar can be done to moc and others 2011-10-24 10:31 marcan: hey :-) 2011-10-24 10:31 just see your nick and I remember lasers :-) 2011-10-24 10:32 we have since released the full Milkymist One product, ready with all bells and whistles... https://sharism.cc/milkymist 2011-10-24 10:32 I'm still very much looking forward to any progress with your laser project 2011-10-24 10:32 no rush of course, good things take some time... 2011-10-24 10:33 if you need any help, please holler 2011-10-24 11:38 wolfspraul: apropos "release" ... maybe relabel the old release as a "beta release" and try a broader announcement for M1rc4 ? 2011-10-24 11:39 since some journalists may have seen the one on the reg, it may be a little easier to get them to pay attention 2011-10-24 11:46 jow_laptop: could you please have a look at: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/mc/ (Makefile and Config.in). It seems to work fine, however, i can't add libncurses{w} to DEPENDS. If i do it like "+MC_ENABLE_WIDECHAR:libncursesw +!MC_ENABLE_WIDECHAR:libncurses", it leads to recursive dependancy again 2011-10-24 11:48 wpwrak: yes definitely, m1 is so new/different that it can be launched/reported about in different ways 2011-10-24 11:49 the difficulty is in getting people to really like it 2011-10-24 11:49 that takes time 2011-10-24 11:50 how many "real" VJs and clubs use it now on a regular basis ? i think references would do a lot to boost credibility 2011-10-24 11:51 he 2011-10-24 11:51 you know I'm conversative about these kinds of success stories, so I'd put the number at 0 right now :-) 2011-10-24 11:51 well, think of it as freeriding - someone else has already done the hard work of evaluation and vetting for you :) 2011-10-24 11:52 some people have it, but 'regular basis' is maybe too much 2011-10-24 11:52 okay, the time is a bit short for much habit forming 2011-10-24 11:54 you can use the "regular basis" as an internal criterion. in the sense that they're either still working on integrating it into their show or at least bring it out every now and then 2011-10-24 11:55 and then maybe ask each if they can send you a picture of the club/show with some typical M1 effect 2011-10-24 12:05 I don't think M1 today has such irresistible features that clubs will just line up to give it that kind of attention 2011-10-24 12:05 I am learning more and more about this scene, and we have to fight a little for a place for M1 2011-10-24 12:07 low power consumption is the most outstanding technical feature where M1 is really unique 2011-10-24 12:08 no, i mean the places that already have it. e.g., that club in bejing. is that the only one ? 2011-10-24 12:08 but that's hardly a good argument in a club with thousands, or even tens of thousands of watt of power use :-) 2011-10-24 12:09 why do people care about power consumption in M1 ? right next to it is equipment that draws 1000x or maybe 10000x the power ... 2011-10-24 12:09 yeah ;-) 2011-10-24 12:09 i don't see power consumption as an argument anywhere :) 2011-10-24 12:09 the club in Beijing (Lantern) was not interested in the end 2011-10-24 12:10 (lantern) aw :-( 2011-10-24 12:10 you mean we don't talk about it enough ? [power consumption] 2011-10-24 12:10 or you mean it cannot work with anybody? 2011-10-24 12:10 (lantern) did they explain why ? 2011-10-24 12:10 the latetr 2011-10-24 12:10 I wouldn't say that, I've heard from several people that there is a real rush/movement of some people towards low power stuff. 2011-10-24 12:11 but I doubt that in the club context, for sure 2011-10-24 12:11 M1 power consumption doesn't really matter. it would if M1 was battery-powered, but since it needs mains anyway, a few watts more or less are irrelevant 2011-10-24 12:11 yes yes, sure 2011-10-24 12:11 kyak: hm, can't you just add select statements to Config.in and leave the DEPENDS:= out ? 2011-10-24 12:11 I am just saying after learning more and more about this scene, that is the #1 tech feature that really stands as being outstanding 2011-10-24 12:12 (low power trend) yes, that's true. but M1 misses that on all ends. in the clubs, because they already waste power like there's no tomorrow. in homes, because its standby is fairly power-hungry. 2011-10-24 12:12 the second one would be video latency, but I haven't yet found someone who would say that's a killer feature 2011-10-24 12:12 I hope we remove standby anyway, and have people completely shut power to turn it off 2011-10-24 12:12 aren't they happy about the integration of interfaces ? 2011-10-24 12:13 (cut power) maybe add a switch ? ;-) 2011-10-24 12:13 jow_laptop: i tried to, but it seems to ignore select statements from COnfig.in 2011-10-24 12:13 [lantern] I don't think they ever were interested, the little interest they showed was because Jon talked them into it hard and eventually I guess they wanted to be nice to Jon :-) 2011-10-24 12:14 (lantern) mmh, i see 2011-10-24 12:14 but even if we would loan them one, I doubt it would be in regular, if any, use. especially after they run into the first problem. waste of time imho, unless they come around and get it and really like it. 2011-10-24 12:15 you cannot force/talk a customer into liking a product, that's just impossible. people have to come to you. 2011-10-24 12:15 [integration] no, haven't heard that 2011-10-24 12:15 what I learnt now is this: 2011-10-24 12:15 maybe you could work with a VJ instead of the club per se 2011-10-24 12:15 visual alone is not that attractive 2011-10-24 12:16 so few clubs will say "if we have a 24/7 visual performance running on the projector, we will sell more drinks" 2011-10-24 12:16 the problem with M1 running all the time would be that it would get boring too fast 2011-10-24 12:16 makes sense 2011-10-24 12:16 the way we can customize and update patches is too difficult for the regular club 2011-10-24 12:16 maybe in a few years, with thousands of effects ... 2011-10-24 12:16 they cannot just upload/integrate pictures from a USB stick 2011-10-24 12:16 yes correct 2011-10-24 12:17 many things are imaginable 2011-10-24 12:17 but right now we have 54 patches and they are rotating and that's it 2011-10-24 12:17 so for all-time use, it gets boring too fast and is too hard to customize 2011-10-24 12:17 plus one real-life vj working on more, so there's hope :) 2011-10-24 12:18 so what the clubs are doing is to get human dj/vj into their place once in a while, say on a saturday 2011-10-24 12:18 that works well because it can be advertised etc. 2011-10-24 12:18 which also advertises the name of the club for the mon-fri guests 2011-10-24 12:18 and those vjs have their notebook-based setup and it's very hard to make them use m1 2011-10-24 12:19 (hard customization) yeah. the setup logic is still very technical. okay for IT folks or artists who don't mind taking their time to really learn their instrument, but nothing you'd sell as "oh just plug it in and it'll look great" 2011-10-24 12:19 it start with "pull pics from a usb stick" 2011-10-24 12:19 people just expect this kind of stuff to work 2011-10-24 12:19 maybe Apple can get away with not having USB 2011-10-24 12:19 but not us :-) 2011-10-24 12:20 but don't get me wrong, I think M1 will find its place 2011-10-24 12:20 with a large enough set of effects, you could also add "like / don't like"Â Â buttons. then the club folks could just tweak the show a little as it runs 2011-10-24 12:20 yes 2011-10-24 12:20 absolutely 2011-10-24 12:20 if we have a site we could categorize and rate patches 2011-10-24 12:20 (afaik, milkdrop has just such a thing) 2011-10-24 12:20 could could could 2011-10-24 12:21 ;-) 2011-10-24 12:21 m1 could be good for installations 2011-10-24 12:21 but that takes time to get known in that field 2011-10-24 12:22 and then most customers will want this or that customization, and may quickly run into something that can easily be customized with a notebook setup 2011-10-24 12:22 even if expensive 2011-10-24 12:22 so, if you don't expect to be able to reach the masses, focus on the premium segment ? metal case, 10x the price ? 2011-10-24 12:22 but expensive is not necessarily bad for a pro/artist/designer 2011-10-24 12:22 that way his markup also goes up :-) 2011-10-24 12:22 nah not sure, it will find its place 2011-10-24 12:23 you just ask as if there would be this large number of clubs crazy to play it, sending us piles of pro shots of m1 in use at their clubs etc. 2011-10-24 12:23 the reality is that none of this exists today 2011-10-24 12:23 there were 3 concerts in Warsaw using m1 2011-10-24 12:23 usta, masala, masecki 2011-10-24 12:23 ok? 2011-10-24 12:23 now... 2011-10-24 12:24 after about a month, and many many emails and asking, we have 1.5 video recordings of those 3 concerts 2011-10-24 12:24 I tried to reach the artists with some very simple interview questions about their use of milkymist at their concert 2011-10-24 12:24 i'm not asking for piles. and not for recordings. just a picture that shows M1 in action at a different site. 2011-10-24 12:24 things like "did you like it?" "do you think the audience liked it?" "do you want to use it again?" 2011-10-24 12:24 so far: zero answers :-) 2011-10-24 12:25 I think they don't care actually. 2011-10-24 12:25 sebastien was there and did all this on that projector in the background. 2011-10-24 12:25 ah, so they may not even have noticed ;-) 2011-10-24 12:25 and jon is telling me the audience liked it and came in front of the camera etc. 2011-10-24 12:25 yes [not noticed] 2011-10-24 12:25 something not far above that :-) 2011-10-24 12:25 did any VJs talk to sebastien afterwards ? 2011-10-24 12:26 need to ask him 2011-10-24 12:26 we have a few serious guys who bought it 2011-10-24 12:26 I need to follow up 2011-10-24 12:26 someone in Munich, someone in Australia, no-carrier in New York 2011-10-24 12:26 but it's crazy time consuming to followup 2011-10-24 12:26 and people may just buy the box to try out, and then end up not doing much 2011-10-24 12:26 that's already a nice geographical distribution 2011-10-24 12:27 I cannot spend large amounts of energy to run after people and extract little snippets if the root cause of the hardship is that they don't care much about the product. 2011-10-24 12:27 you need to find someone in asia, too. asia is the boom continent while the old world goes to hell :) 2011-10-24 12:27 so they need to come forward themselves 2011-10-24 12:28 they need to blog 2011-10-24 12:28 they need to upload great pics and videos 2011-10-24 12:28 they need to try hard to get new patches included in updates 2011-10-24 12:28 and so on 2011-10-24 12:28 until that happens, I focus my energy on finding new customers :) 2011-10-24 12:28 c'mon. it can't be that hard to ping them every once in a while. if they have happy or unhappy news, they'll let you know 2011-10-24 12:28 nope 2011-10-24 12:28 the main risk will be that they come with unreasonable expectations 2011-10-24 12:28 no the main risk is that I write an email, and get no response 2011-10-24 12:29 that means I wasted some minutes of my life that will never come back 2011-10-24 12:29 sounds small, but it adds up, trust me :-) 2011-10-24 12:29 I could spend half day each day run after nanonote or m1 customers that disappeared into silence 2011-10-24 12:29 can't do it 2011-10-24 12:30 they paid, fine. I spend my energy improving the product and understanding how to make it easier to use. 2011-10-24 12:30 okay, but one mail will reach 33% of your customer base. other folks need to spend megadollars and months of work to do that ;-) 2011-10-24 12:41 so bottom line: understanding the features and scene and potential buyers (and non-buyers) better is helping us to focus our marketing, so we quickly find more actual customers 2011-10-24 12:41 m1 is very unique, as a package 2011-10-24 12:41 some things are easier than elsewhere, others harder 2011-10-24 12:42 how do you find and approach potential buyers ? 2011-10-24 12:42 in some comparisons it's very cheap, in others too expensive 2011-10-24 12:42 they're customers, they're free to not bother, to not spend even 30s on reading or answering mail. Their focus may have changed, temporarily or permanent 2011-10-24 12:42 yes of course, correct 2011-10-24 12:43 just following leads and ideas 2011-10-24 12:43 companies, journalists, students, etc. 2011-10-24 12:43 sebastien's approach of going to events where artists go to look for new trends and ideas sounds promising, but also very labour-intensive 2011-10-24 12:43 hmm, so all from the home office 2011-10-24 12:44 for me yes, definitely. Jon is traveling. 2011-10-24 12:44 yeah, he has that M1 demo suitcase ;-) 2011-10-24 12:44 sebastien has been very successful at finding actual paying customers 2011-10-24 12:46 (sebastien) good. his approach sounds like the best way to get new people involved to me. spend time with them. make sure they already know the M1 a little when you're done with them. "fire and forget" e-mails don't have that effect. 2011-10-24 12:49 I don't need to explain my concerns about very low total market for such a specialized product 2011-10-24 12:51 maybe - with the right software - you could approach private "posse" TV stations (those only broadcasting to one block, or max one town. Usually ran by hobbyinsts) 2011-10-24 12:52 they also are already becoming obsolete in times of internet streaming, but may still be a market as large or larger than VJs 2011-10-24 12:53 sorry disconnect 2011-10-24 12:53 I don't need to explain my concerns about very low total market for such a specialized product 2011-10-24 12:53 maybe - with the right software - you could approach private "posse" TV stations (those only broadcasting to one block, or max one town. Usually ran by hobbyinsts) 2011-10-24 12:53 they also are already becoming obsolete in times of internet streaming, but may still be a market as large or larger than VJs 2011-10-24 12:53 so I don't know how sebastien sees the results of his events right now 2011-10-24 12:54 I don't think the market is small/specialized 2011-10-24 12:54 not at all 2011-10-24 12:54 we hvae to learn, be patient, build a brand, build an awesome product 2011-10-24 12:54 you sound like an evangelist :-D 2011-10-24 12:54 it needs the right feature mix, right brand, right channel and marketing partners, right price, etc. etc. 2011-10-24 12:54 well 2011-10-24 12:55 HTC just paid 500 million USD for a headphone company 2011-10-24 12:55 dr. dre's beats 2011-10-24 12:55 I just take one random example 2011-10-24 12:55 why are thye doing that? 2011-10-24 12:55 *everybody* is using headphones nowadays 2011-10-24 12:55 on the headphone side - why are people paying 100-600 USD for a headphone? 2011-10-24 12:55 I don't even *know* any VJ 2011-10-24 12:55 never even seen any 2011-10-24 12:55 they paid 500 _million_ USD for a headphone company 2011-10-24 12:56 we are on the same page 2011-10-24 12:56 with Milkymist a lot of things are new *at once* 2011-10-24 12:56 new brand 2011-10-24 12:56 new technology 2011-10-24 12:56 new channel 2011-10-24 12:56 new product category 2011-10-24 12:56 that's pretty crazy 2011-10-24 12:56 normally one of those is new, the rest is stable/known 2011-10-24 12:57 if all those 4 are new, well, all bets are off 2011-10-24 12:57 there are thousands of KTVs 2011-10-24 12:57 tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of bars and nightclubs 2011-10-24 12:57 from a manufacturer POV that's correct. From a market survey POV I have a hard time to figure who's going to buy the product 2011-10-24 12:58 millions of under-used projectors in offices, lobbies, restaurants 2011-10-24 12:58 there must be 1 gazillion screens all over asia 2011-10-24 12:58 oh sure, that's why we sold only about 40 now 2011-10-24 12:58 and not 40,000 or 40 million 2011-10-24 12:58 that's maybe a little bit like building special high power hydraulic pumps for those who make their cars jump by playing with a joystick. I barely know *anything* about that very special scene 2011-10-24 12:59 yes but you know milkymist is not that specialized actually 2011-10-24 12:59 we have to shape it well 2011-10-24 12:59 and maybe new brand/tech/channel/category is too much 2011-10-24 12:59 but it's all fine right now, things are moving 2011-10-24 12:59 I didn't expect you to buy one, for example :-) 2011-10-24 13:00 let's look at the infrastructure 2011-10-24 13:00 should I make 300 USD headphones and I would have a chance with you then? :-) 2011-10-24 13:00 those unused tvs and projectors are probably doing something. in restaurants, they show tv. in bars, they show music videos or sports 2011-10-24 13:00 a lot are off 2011-10-24 13:01 but the problem there is m1 gets too boring too fast 2011-10-24 13:01 when run unattended 2011-10-24 13:01 VJs seem to be a bunch of people that likes to experiment 2011-10-24 13:01 another angle 2011-10-24 13:01 in clubs, they're probably only installed if they first have someone who will use it 2011-10-24 13:01 maybe we can get VJs to sell m1 2011-10-24 13:01 to clubs 2011-10-24 13:01 but then we might need to stop selling direct 2011-10-24 13:01 so the VJs can sell for 999 USD :-) 2011-10-24 13:01 does it even make sense for a club to own an M1 ? 2011-10-24 13:01 good question 2011-10-24 13:02 does it attract more people? 2011-10-24 13:02 I cannot answer that question 2011-10-24 13:02 since it's just a machine/box, it doesn't have the same kind of appeal as a human dj/vj 'playing' on the weekend 2011-10-24 13:02 it does look pretty nice though, but gets boring. that's my personal impression. 2011-10-24 13:02 the boring is fixable 2011-10-24 13:02 but even if we can fix that - would a club want to do it? 2011-10-24 13:03 need to talk to more club owners, it's that simple 2011-10-24 13:03 hwo do you fix the boring without adding a Vj to the bill ? 2011-10-24 13:03 TV solves the boring. at least from a visual point of view. 2011-10-24 13:03 a human VJ can never be beaten on boring 2011-10-24 13:03 but m1 could improve a lot 2011-10-24 13:03 you don't have to beat him 2011-10-24 13:04 more patches, easy way to feed still pics 2011-10-24 13:04 other small improvements 2011-10-24 13:04 like excluding some unwanted patches easily 2011-10-24 13:04 this that, small things 2011-10-24 13:04 but lets' assume boring is fixed 2011-10-24 13:04 would the club want it? 2011-10-24 13:04 not sure 2011-10-24 13:04 what is the main argument for the club? 2011-10-24 13:04 don't know 2011-10-24 13:04 we will learn those things 2011-10-24 13:05 maybe you need to bundle effects and audio. since M1 needs a lot of tuning to do nice things with music, an unattended M1 only reveals a tiny fraction of its appeal 2011-10-24 13:05 maybe Lantern will work out later 2011-10-24 13:05 they have a big renovation in November, and will look at it again after that 2011-10-24 13:05 but it's telling that they want to look at m1 *after* the renovation 2011-10-24 13:05 rather than including it in their thoughts during the renovation :-) 2011-10-24 13:05 their focus are speakers, lights 2011-10-24 13:06 yeah. that's the chinese "no" ;-) 2011-10-24 13:06 sure 2011-10-24 13:06 you're impolite for not understanding it and staying away :) 2011-10-24 13:06 I'm also learning about led walls 2011-10-24 13:07 but whenever it comes to new features, most likely an (expensive) notebook setup will already have that feature in some hw/sw combination 2011-10-24 13:07 led walls may have unusual aspect ratios 2011-10-24 13:07 and unusual color requirements 2011-10-24 13:08 I agree with Sebastien that we should focus on selling the features we have today, rather than blindly adding feature after feature until we find one that sells. 2011-10-24 13:08 the magic is more in brand/channel/message I think 2011-10-24 13:08 just go the idea of discotheques that quite frequently use some lightshow for their dancing floor. With M1 you can have fancy lighshow by just using a good projector. Don't know or see any pub or club or whatever running a M1 for 24/7 entertainment of customers sipping their beer 2011-10-24 13:08 if the entire world would fully understand what m1 could do today, we would have thousands of orders tomorrow, I'm sure 2011-10-24 13:08 led walls are only relevant to the point of them being competition for projectors. so don't try to sell M1 to a club that's already invested into a LED wall instead of a projcor 2011-10-24 13:09 (sell the features we have) yes ! :) 2011-10-24 13:09 btu like I said, with having a new tech, new brand, new channel and new category all at once, we do have an uphill battle ahead of us 2011-10-24 13:10 DocScrutinizer: and btw, that's obvious but still - hackers can take this 'video synthesizer' and see a general purpose computer in it, and hack it into whatever they are capable of 2011-10-24 13:10 the new tech doesn't really matter because you're not selling the tech. new brand shouldn't matter all that much either. you're just one of a gazillion nobodies. so that's the "nobody brand", already perfectly well established all over the world 2011-10-24 13:10 that's also potential 'customers' 2011-10-24 13:11 oh but the new tech is unproven 2011-10-24 13:11 people will figure that out quickly 2011-10-24 13:11 why, besides the hackers, will ever know ? ;-) 2011-10-24 13:11 so channel people ask "existing brand? no" "proven tech? no" 2011-10-24 13:11 wolfspraul: I'd probably see a better market in that "hacker approach" 2011-10-24 13:11 it's justmore and more risks, because all those 4 things are new *at once* 2011-10-24 13:12 that's very unusual/rare, because so risky 2011-10-24 13:12 normally you pick one of them, and innovate 2011-10-24 13:12 existing brand/tech, new channel 2011-10-24 13:12 existing tech, new brand 2011-10-24 13:12 existing channel, new brand 2011-10-24 13:12 existing brand, new tech 2011-10-24 13:12 whatever 2011-10-24 13:12 but not all at once :-) 2011-10-24 13:12 AIUI M1 is pretty capable of doing industry grade object tracking, face recog, all sorts of scientific image processing 2011-10-24 13:12 yes 2011-10-24 13:13 DocScrutinizer: the problem is that wolfgang doesn't have the financial resources to properly develop M1. so he needs to sell it before the hackers had their chance to make it do more cool things. 2011-10-24 13:14 yes, that's understood 2011-10-24 13:15 so the IT tool provider market (dunno a better word) is a main target market for this device 2011-10-24 13:15 i think it's pretty much as i predicted - M1 looks like an excellent long-term project but a very hard short-term sale. so it will not become a success based on its merits alone. it needs a good dose of luck. 2011-10-24 13:15 sure 2011-10-24 13:15 needs a completely different housing (or no housing at all) for that 2011-10-24 13:15 maybe we can take out some of those 'new' items 2011-10-24 13:15 find an existing channel 2011-10-24 13:15 or an existing brand 2011-10-24 13:16 sell via psarkfun or sth like that 2011-10-24 13:16 sparkfun 2011-10-24 13:16 wpwrak: I'm glad I don't have more money to waste into hobby projects :-) 2011-10-24 13:16 business = sales 2011-10-24 13:16 for existing brands, you may need to have a better track record of commercial success 2011-10-24 13:16 maybe even thinkgeek 2011-10-24 13:16 M1 is definitely 'properly developed', unless we include the brand, channel development, those are lacking indeed, and the focus now 2011-10-24 13:17 no no 2011-10-24 13:17 an existing brand knows they have channel strength 2011-10-24 13:17 they look at the technology only 2011-10-24 13:17 their problem will be the openess :-) 2011-10-24 13:17 maybe that too 2011-10-24 13:17 see Medion wikireader X-P 2011-10-24 13:17 so for the time being, we go all the way out and reach to the end user 2011-10-24 13:17 that's the right approach imho 2011-10-24 13:18 bypass everything... 2011-10-24 13:18 yes 2011-10-24 13:18 50% of rc3 is sold after a few weeks 2011-10-24 13:18 not bad 2011-10-24 13:18 DocScrutinizer: if you want to have one, let me know :-) 2011-10-24 13:18 calling it a day now... 2011-10-24 13:18 just shipped another one to Norway today 2011-10-24 13:18 WR? why not 2011-10-24 13:18 Milkymist One of course 2011-10-24 13:18 (and I was joking) 2011-10-24 13:18 M!? sure as hell 2011-10-24 13:18 to reach brands, you may have to go to trade shows and have a booth. when their folks walk around to see what the competition is doing, they may spot you 2011-10-24 13:18 still a long shot 2011-10-24 13:19 or get into the trade press 2011-10-24 13:19 many will want to control their technology 2011-10-24 13:19 catch 22 :) 2011-10-24 13:19 and since m1 is open, they cannot buy & inhouse it 2011-10-24 13:19 Sebastien talked with Roland for example 2011-10-24 13:19 yeah, customer lock-in is a missing feature :) 2011-10-24 13:19 they like it, but want full control from Japan etc. 2011-10-24 13:19 maybe Sebastien could move to Japan and get a job there 2011-10-24 13:20 that would probably work 2011-10-24 13:20 and on his first day he would have to sign a contract that would disallow him from ever making a contribution under gpl again :-) 2011-10-24 13:20 (kidding, kidding) 2011-10-24 13:20 sign in blood 2011-10-24 13:21 without at least 1/8 page ad in c't you won't enter any 'business' on the IT supplier market 2011-10-24 13:21 DocScrutinizer: wolfgang thinks c't is too provincial 2011-10-24 13:21 LOL 2011-10-24 13:22 I email them tomorrow :-) 2011-10-24 13:22 finally ;-) 2011-10-24 13:22 they are very picky though, which is OK but just saying 2011-10-24 13:22 they totally dig open and underdogs. what else could you wish for ? 2011-10-24 13:23 well it will not translate into sales for sure 2011-10-24 13:23 imho 2011-10-24 13:23 but some more wise-cracking along the lines of slashdot 2011-10-24 13:23 they're merciless on the tech, but they go out of their way to still make it sound nice if they like you 2011-10-24 13:23 make damn sure to properly emphasise the general purpose nature of M1 for $RANDOM kind of image processing though, when you approach c't - they are not very much interested in VJing, nor are their readers 2011-10-24 13:23 I think best bet is people who really love music and video 2011-10-24 13:23 there's no forum on the printed c't ;-) 2011-10-24 13:24 all that is up to them 2011-10-24 13:24 I will email them, then we see 2011-10-24 13:25 and the technical novelty. new open SoC (pretty much the first one that actually does something) is a pretty strong feature for c't. maybe you could even get two articles - one on the VJ side, the other hardcore on the tech 2011-10-24 13:26 quite usually you send them a good press release article, and they pick passages and rewrite it 2011-10-24 13:26 they're (still) tinkerers. they like their technical background stories. 2011-10-24 13:27 i think it may be worth trying for an article, not just yet another ten lines press release 2011-10-24 13:27 send them a M1 and you bought an article usually, only if it comes with a manual/howto/CD_with_sw that lures sb in to tinker with it 2011-10-24 13:29 mention they could even print all the schematics and PCB on that article and you may get a 8 pages in main section, where they start a c't project on it 2011-10-24 13:29 that may be a little too much :) 2011-10-24 13:30 why 2011-10-24 13:30 do you think *any* of the c't projects been developed by c't reporters or their lab? 2011-10-24 13:31 yes 2011-10-24 13:31 well, yes. You *become* c't reporter when they are interested in a project you developed ;-D 2011-10-24 13:32