2011-09-16 00:02 <whitequark> ok, for the first round I'll tell the truth.
2011-09-16 00:02 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-09-16 00:03 <wpwrak> always a good first step towards determining which set of lies they want to hear :)
2011-09-16 00:04 <whitequark> after all, there is a very nice service here which allows to create a virtual credit card attached to a e-money account, and it even works with paypal.
2011-09-16 00:04 <wpwrak> oh, nice :-)
2011-09-16 00:05 <whitequark> the e-money account is itself attached to mobile phone -- but well, you can go and buy a number for $3, nothing more required.
2011-09-16 00:05 <whitequark> thinking deeply about it, I doubt that such system may have appeared and continues to exist just on its own.
2011-09-16 00:06 <wpwrak> as a customer there, you'll probably be in illustrious company ;-)
2011-09-16 00:07 <wpwrak> to follow proper protocol, you should use tor to access it
2011-09-16 00:08 <whitequark> I doubt someone really uses illegal accounts to buy stuff on DigiKey (why would you ever want it?..)
2011-09-16 00:09 <wpwrak> why not ? use somebody else's money. ship to a place where your identity isn't revealed.
2011-09-16 00:11 <whitequark> this service comes with mandatory SMS confirmation (through digikey obviously cannot know about that)
2011-09-16 00:13 <whitequark> and also, does re-selling electronic parts bought from a retail vendor generate a lot of profit? there are easier and more paying ways to fiddle with criminally-obtained money, I'd say
2011-09-16 00:16 <wpwrak> why not ? buy with someone else's money. sell to local electronics shops.
2011-09-16 00:17 <whitequark> hm, looks like my bank has declined their transaction, which is strange
2011-09-16 00:18 <whitequark> wpwrak, have you bought something from digikey?
2011-09-16 00:18 <wpwrak> yeah, tons of stuff
2011-09-16 00:18 <wpwrak> i found them quite easy to work with. less paranoid than the rest.
2011-09-16 00:19 <whitequark> they've first sent me a bill for $1, which confirms that card no., exp. date and cvv is correct
2011-09-16 00:19 <wpwrak> maybe you have to advise your CC company so that they pre-approve the transaction
2011-09-16 00:20 <wpwrak> e.g., in argentina, they do such things. very annoying. luckily, i kept my swiss credit cards :)
2011-09-16 00:21 <whitequark> that's not a real bank (well, they are de jure, but not de facto). they're more like a common e-money service provider
2011-09-16 00:22 <whitequark> ahh. the taxes + usd-to-rur convert rate.
2011-09-16 00:23 <wpwrak> maybe digi-key had some bad experience with that bank and therefore are more careful
2011-09-16 00:23 <wpwrak> of they generate fake credit cards, that would explain a lot of trouble :)
2011-09-16 00:24 <wpwrak> much of the customer authentication in web-based shops relies on matching the shipping address with the billing address of the credit card. mess with this, and all their alarm bells go off.
2011-09-16 00:25 <whitequark> ah yes, that may be the case. in all previous cases, shipping and billing addresses were the same.
2011-09-16 00:26 <whitequark> darn. they want a _fax_.
2011-09-16 00:26 <qi-bot> The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09162011-0128/
2011-09-16 00:26 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: (hatched) 5ct cheaper per board
2011-09-16 00:26 <DocScrutinizer> due to less copper needed
2011-09-16 00:27 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer: isn't it etched away anyway?
2011-09-16 00:27 <DocScrutinizer> depends
2011-09-16 00:28 <DocScrutinizer> and even when it is, do you think they dump the copper saturated acid in the sea?
2011-09-16 00:28 <wpwrak> i thought is was the secret ingredient of coca cola :)
2011-09-16 00:29 <DocScrutinizer> I don't know of any other reason to use hatched planes
2011-09-16 00:29 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer: I've heard environmentalists saying that, yep.
2011-09-16 00:29 <whitequark> almost literally and dead seriously, that is.
2011-09-16 00:30 <DocScrutinizer> on >1000EUR per metric ton of copper? you're dreaming
2011-09-16 00:30 <wpwrak> in russia ? from what one gets to read, i wouldn't be surprised :)
2011-09-16 00:31 <whitequark> wpwrak: yeah, and that's not the craziest thing they say
2011-09-16 00:31 <wpwrak> in china ? i'd be surprised if they didn't dump whatever, but i'd be surprised if there's much complaining about it :)
2011-09-16 00:31 <whitequark> one of the reasons I treat them as sick idiots
2011-09-16 00:31 <whitequark> by the way and on the topic of recycling, green & stuff
2011-09-16 00:31 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: i guess it depends on how easy/hard it is to extract the copper 
2011-09-16 00:32 <DocScrutinizer> dead simple, on 1000°C there's nothing but plain elementary copper left over
2011-09-16 00:33 <DocScrutinizer> at very least it's as good as any other ore to melt out copper from it
2011-09-16 00:33 <whitequark> isn't Pb-free solder much more brittle (which leads to more device failures), more expensive to produce and buy (which leads to more profit for manufacturers), makes devices quite hard to repair (from experience and by words of a friend who does that), and quite un-environmentally-friendly to produce (not really sure, but heard something about that)?
2011-09-16 00:34 <whitequark> and it's promoted by government, of course
2011-09-16 00:34 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: hmm, what you have is a salt. are you sure that comes apart so easily ?
2011-09-16 00:35 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: I'd say yes. If not, add electrolytic desintegration
2011-09-16 00:35 <wpwrak> whitequark: not sure if it leads to all that many more failures. and a lot of consumer electronics are designed to die young. so the soldering may not be the weakest spot.
2011-09-16 00:36 <whitequark> wpwrak: (salt) it melts at 801 deg. C. and evaporates at ~1500
2011-09-16 00:36 <whitequark> wpwrak: (devices) for the portable ones, I'd say yes. the point about the design is valid, through
2011-09-16 00:37 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: depending on the acid, even that may not be enough. so you may need several processing steps before you've gotten rid of all the extra stuff. would be interesting to see the cost structure of that.
2011-09-16 00:37 <wpwrak> (salt) i see that you found wikipedia, too ;-) but the salt in question won't be NaCl ...
2011-09-16 00:38 <DocScrutinizer> you bet they'll use an acid that makes recovering the copper simple
2011-09-16 00:38 <DocScrutinizer> I recall e.g. ammoniumperclorate which obviously is all gaseous elements
2011-09-16 00:38 <whitequark> wpwrak: the numbers are pretty similar for others, too. and can you name a non-metal-based acid which does not turn to gasses at 1000 deg. C?
2011-09-16 00:39 <wpwrak> dunno. i've hard they use Fe(III)chloride in industry as well. that promises to be messy. all the "what can i do with my spent acid" processes i've read about sounded somehow nasty
2011-09-16 00:39 <wpwrak> HCl+H2O2 is much cleaner, though
2011-09-16 00:40 <DocScrutinizer> on a large scale copper is "etched" away in electrolytic bathes anyway, most cheap method AFAIK
2011-09-16 00:40 <whitequark> ah, wait a bit. does "acid" mean also "etching solution" in this context?
2011-09-16 00:41 <DocScrutinizer> of course if you use ferro-III-cloride you'll have a problem with mere thermal copper recovering
2011-09-16 00:41 <DocScrutinizer> HCl OTOH...
2011-09-16 00:42 <wpwrak> here's the salt you get with HCl+H2O2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_chloride
2011-09-16 00:42 <wpwrak> boils at 993 C. 1000 C were a good guess !
2011-09-16 00:44 <DocScrutinizer> actually large scale PCB production isn't using etching at all afaik. They print the traces with graphite or similar, then copperize it in an electrolytic bath
2011-09-16 00:45 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer: so they don't use photolitography then? I thought it is the fastest method
2011-09-16 00:45 <DocScrutinizer> for small scale it probably is. For 100s of k up to mio of boards you start to think all new about processes
2011-09-16 00:48 <DocScrutinizer> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiterplatte#Stanztechnik_und_Drahtlegetechnik
2011-09-16 00:49 <DocScrutinizer> I don't think this article is comprehensive
2011-09-16 00:50 <whitequark> what's Pertinax?
2011-09-16 00:51 <whitequark> some kind of textolite?
2011-09-16 00:52 <DocScrutinizer> paper with a poliphenol-resin iirc
2011-09-16 00:53 <wpwrak> ah no, sorry. it should be Copper(I) chloride. boils at 1490 C. odd, though. the crystals i get all look like Copper(II) chloride
2011-09-16 00:54 <DocScrutinizer> milling probably is also a commonly used method in industry
2011-09-16 00:54 <wpwrak> slooooow ?
2011-09-16 00:54 <DocScrutinizer> who cares, cheap anyway
2011-09-16 00:55 <DocScrutinizer> and you recycle almost clean plain copper
2011-09-16 00:55 <DocScrutinizer> and the milling machines are not that expensive either
2011-09-16 00:55 <whitequark> wpwrak: why Copper(I)? all etchers are quite potent oxidizers, and you only get Cu(I) with a really weak ones
2011-09-16 00:55 <wpwrak> (recycle) if you mill away all the extra. that makes it even slower.
2011-09-16 00:55 <DocScrutinizer> you can have one XYZ actuator with dozens of milling heads
2011-09-16 00:55 <wpwrak> i see milling more for chemicals-free prototyping
2011-09-16 00:57 <wpwrak> whitequark: dunno. the pages i found that claim to explain the chemistry of the process say it's just CuCl, not CuCl2
2011-09-16 00:57 <DocScrutinizer> but honestly I never cared about how industry produces PCB. I'm just using it, and I guess they offer large qty by the raw area/weight of copper used per unit
2011-09-16 00:59 <DocScrutinizer> that's where hatch comes in
2011-09-16 01:00 <wpwrak> (hatch) heh, you learn a new bit every day :)
2011-09-16 01:02 <DocScrutinizer> actually it's been loooong since I last have seen a PCB with hatched areas
2011-09-16 01:02 <DocScrutinizer> nowadays PCB are usually too small so it doesn't matter
2011-09-16 01:03 <wpwrak> and people may want the shielding anyway
2011-09-16 01:03 <whitequark> wpwrak: (digikey) you were right about the addresses--now they want an ID card. I just hope email is fine for them
2011-09-16 01:04 <wpwrak> whitequark: i'm surprised they even go through with this. the normal procedure would be to bounce you back to other forms of payment (wire transfer or such)
2011-09-16 01:04 <wpwrak> nice text here, alas missing the formulas: http://rdchem.com/chemistry-of-the-cupric-chloride-etch.html
2011-09-16 01:05 <wpwrak> "However, the practical difficulties of using Chlorine for replenishment, not just the actual safety issues, but more importantly, the perceived problems, in the heavily legislated, risk-averse, environment of today, [...]"
2011-09-16 01:05 <wpwrak> "Chlorine gas can, of course, be very dangerous to any form of life, even to chemical process engineers."
2011-09-16 01:09 <DocScrutinizer> haha
2011-09-16 01:24 <qi-bot> The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09162011-0226/
2011-09-16 01:25 <xiangfu> we only have one color in RC3 right? 
2011-09-16 01:25 <xiangfu> I mean the milkymist one case
2011-09-16 01:26 <wolfspra1l> xiangfu: yes light-blue
2011-09-16 01:30 <xiangfu> someone ask me some question in Youtube channel. 
2011-09-16 01:30 <xiangfu> then I ask here for make sure :)
2011-09-16 02:22 <qi-bot> The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09162011-0324/
2011-09-16 02:23 <xiangfu> yes. seems we needs upload the all modules to linux 3.0
2011-09-16 02:47 <xiangfu> I temporary disable the kmod-xfs
2011-09-16 02:53 <wolfspraul> xiangfu: who would need xfs anyway?
2011-09-16 02:53 <wolfspraul> is that the xfs filesystem?
2011-09-16 02:53 <xiangfu> yes.
2011-09-16 02:54 <DocScrutinizer> solaris?
2011-09-16 02:54 <wolfspraul> I doubt any current nano user uses it, neither can I imagine where/how it could be used
2011-09-16 02:54 <wolfspraul> xfs on a memory card?
2011-09-16 02:54 <wolfspraul> I'd say until we hear from someone who needs it in some case, we can leave it out
2011-09-16 02:54 <DocScrutinizer> how do you manage optional kernel modules?
2011-09-16 02:57 <xiangfu> DocScrutinizer, just build all of them as packages.
2011-09-16 02:57 <DocScrutinizer> I haven't seen or heard a real good concept how user could decide to install optional modules or alternatively kick out unused modules based on usecase
2011-09-16 02:58 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, you can probably do this if you do a build-all
2011-09-16 02:59 <xiangfu> DocScrutinizer, some packages maybe depends on kmod. that end user may install some kmod. 
2011-09-16 03:00 <xiangfu> DocScrutinizer, ender user will never touch /etc/modules :D
2011-09-16 03:01 <xiangfu> DocScrutinizer, just grep currect release. there are kmod-fuse, kmod-ks7010, kmod-tun installed.
2011-09-16 03:02 <DocScrutinizer> on maemo we got a special kernel that supports (among other things) USB hostmode, and it's a real pain to get modules built and deploy them for e.g iso9660, as that kernel is also just a package
2011-09-16 03:02 <xiangfu> wolfspraul, yes. I only know there is 'xfs' never look into it. even when we meet this build error. I just disable it :)
2011-09-16 03:04 <DocScrutinizer> so when you upload a new kernel to outobuilder, how shall the autobuilder know which (kernel module) packages need a rebuild
2011-09-16 03:08 <wolfspraul> kristoffer: he :-)
2011-09-16 03:08 <wolfspraul> you beat me
2011-09-16 03:08 <wolfspraul> just delete the whole page, not each thread...
2011-09-16 03:08 <xiangfu> DocScrutinizer, build them all? :)
2011-09-16 03:09 <DocScrutinizer> GRRR [2011-09-16 05:07:10] [Fehler] Verbindung zu Server chat.eu.freenode.net (Port 6667) abgebrochen: The remote host closed the connection.
2011-09-16 03:11 <DocScrutinizer> xiangfu: I guess there are too many packages on http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ so building them all is not an option, even if you'd know what exactly shall trigger this build-all
2011-09-16 03:16 <xiangfu> oh
2011-09-16 03:16 <kristianpaul> oops
2011-09-16 03:19 <kristianpaul> damn
2011-09-16 03:21 <kristianpaul> feels that need a nap
2011-09-16 14:00 <freemor> Cool, watching CC conference @ http://194.29.160.132:20003/cc.ogg on my Nanonote while working on my server (NN conneted to servers USB)
2011-09-16 14:01 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-09-16 14:01 <wolfspraul> nice!
2011-09-16 14:01 <wolfspraul> all thanks to David
2011-09-16 14:04 <freemor> Yes, Mplayer is a big +
2011-09-16 18:01 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: libassuan: update to 2.0.2, add libgpg-error as a dependency (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/b964a40
2011-09-16 19:57 <whitequark> wpwrak: hm, I've scanned a copy of requested passport pages for them (they're in russian, and the address is, yes, _handwritten_.) After that, I've noticed that the billing address does not match the one in passport, as I've relocated.
2011-09-16 19:59 <whitequark> maybe it's one of the reasons they (digikey, btw) charge $120 for shipping to russia.
2011-09-16 20:08 <Jay7> o_O
2011-09-16 20:10 <wpwrak> the address in the passport may not matter. most passports don't have an address anyway.
2011-09-16 20:15 <viric> whitequark: are you in moscow?
2011-09-16 21:23 <Artyom> Hi kristian
2011-09-16 21:28 <kristianpaul> hello !
2011-09-16 21:30 <Artyom> How is your project? Do you have any news? ;)
2011-09-16 21:30 <kristianpaul> bad news.. :/
2011-09-16 21:31 <kristianpaul> i'm having not able to initialize namuru from rtems
2011-09-16 21:31 <kristianpaul> wich i switched to, so i'll be able to do more advanced stuff like writing to a file ;)
2011-09-16 21:31 <kristianpaul> i just ported the C code from the hacjed milkymist bios, but accumlators are reading zero :(
2011-09-16 21:32 <kristianpaul> i dont know what is hapening, it should work. initialization is pretty simple
2011-09-16 21:33 <larsc> heisenbug
2011-09-16 21:33 <kristianpaul> :-|
2011-09-16 21:34 <kristianpaul>  so i decied to add to some namuru registers the posibility to be read as well, so i can confirm the write was sucefull, but this was not needed when working from the bios..
2011-09-16 21:34 <kristianpaul> what about you Artyom?
2011-09-16 21:37 <Artyom> well, I've managed to make tracking work. It is unstable, but this is the first step which was very important for me. Now I slowly clean-up the code (remove unnecessary comments, magic numbers and so on). I hope I will prepare new post for my site within couple of weeks.
2011-09-16 21:38 <kristianpaul> larsc: actyally there is something else, if i intialize namuru from bios and then try to read accumualtors from rtems system hang :/
2011-09-16 21:38 <kristianpaul> Artyom: great !
2011-09-16 21:38 <kristianpaul> I'm late now, !!
2011-09-16 21:39 <kristianpaul> Artyom: had to modify something in namuru to make it work, or just fix tracking loop algorythm in software?
2011-09-16 21:40 <Artyom> One stupid mistake. Problem was in vhdl - my mistake, not namuru
2011-09-16 21:40 <kristianpaul> mistakes are mistakes no matters the size of it ;)
2011-09-16 21:41 <kristianpaul> ha look it, now is not hanging
2011-09-16 21:42 <kristianpaul> Artyom: when you said unstable your atena is a fixed position, or you decided to take a walk around the square with it? :)
2011-09-16 21:42 <Artyom> What is milkymist bios? And why did you decide to use RTEMS?
2011-09-16 21:43 <Artyom> No, I use simple one-channel simulator now.
2011-09-16 21:43 <Artyom> It's easier when you have stable signal
2011-09-16 21:43 <kristianpaul> milkymist bios is the code that allow to milkymist soc sdram to be initialized amonng other things like ethernet i guess
2011-09-16 21:44 <kristianpaul> i decided use rtems cause is the only "OS" the support ethernet, so i will be able to plot accumulator and check later on the desktop computer
2011-09-16 21:45 <kristianpaul> miss linux all time 
2011-09-16 21:46 <kristianpaul> Artyom: (simulator) wow, you have espensive toys 
2011-09-16 21:47 <Artyom> oh, you want to send data from acquisistion/tracking to PC. I use rs-232 now and it's not very good. The speed is too slowwww. I have to record values from correlator in array and then send data to PC. But array size is veryyyyy limited
2011-09-16 21:48 <kristianpaul> at 115200 bps still aceptable? well is a single channel you are right
2011-09-16 21:49 <kristianpaul> i could use tftp but the libry just support reading not psuhing data.. :/
2011-09-16 21:51 <Artyom> in my case - no matter what is the speed as I record values in a special array at first. (I use 57600 bps because I couldn't start with 115200 and didn't want to spent time on this question)
2011-09-16 21:52 <kristianpaul> well i have 128Mb of ram i think i could allocate data there and transfer later by serial, not bad idea
2011-09-16 21:53 <kristianpaul> yeah, i havent spent time with rtems just because i wanted to use ethernet..
2011-09-16 21:53 <Artyom> I have much less. Only 64kb ;)
2011-09-16 21:53 <kristianpaul> :o
2011-09-16 21:53 <kristianpaul> hides
2011-09-16 21:55 <kristianpaul> Artyom: why you think you tracking is unstable? bad doppler compesation?
2011-09-16 21:55 <Artyom> Good question :)
2011-09-16 21:55 <Artyom> I can see two potential problems:
2011-09-16 21:56 <Artyom> 1) I'm not experienced C-programmer for ARM7 and I could make some bugs;
2011-09-16 21:57 <Artyom> 2) Preveously I played only with post processing. And there is one significant difference/
2011-09-16 21:59 <Artyom> When I work with real-time receiver I always have some delays: for example delay between the moment when correlators output data and the moment when tracking algorithm completed and new control words for NCOs are ready 
2011-09-16 22:01 <Artyom> May be it's important. I don't know it now. I write a pc-program that will emulate these delays. I'm going to play with it and find out whether these delay are important or not.
2011-09-16 22:01 <Artyom> BTW did you receive a letter fro me? ;)
2011-09-16 22:01 <kristianpaul> no :(
2011-09-16 22:01 <kristianpaul> or no yet
2011-09-16 22:02 <kristianpaul> (delay) may be you can do some buffering
2011-09-16 22:02 <kristianpaul> but i asumed if you to all processing in less than 1 ms things should be in place, correct?
2011-09-16 22:04 <Artyom> I don't know it...
2011-09-16 22:05 <kristianpaul> or do use threads ? (wich i dont know thing ethier)
2011-09-16 22:06 <Artyom> no, I don't
2011-09-16 22:08 <Artyom> time to sleep ;)
2011-09-16 22:08 <kristianpaul> I'm waiting to read your blog post :)
2011-09-16 22:08 <kristianpaul> sure, time here to find what's wrong with initilization from rtems :)
2011-09-16 22:09 <Artyom> :)
2011-09-16 22:18 <whitequark> viric: yeah
2011-09-16 22:19 <kristianpaul> btw Artyom is also from russia, moscu i think too
2011-09-16 22:19 <whitequark> wpwrak: that's what he asked for, anyway. we'll see if that helps
2011-09-16 22:21 <whitequark> kristianpaul: does he know a secret power which makes digikey's requirements sane? apart from that, we're in pretty much the same position, aren't we?
2011-09-16 22:21 <kristianpaul> dont you could ask him
2011-09-16 22:22 <kristianpaul> whitequark: his blog http://gnss-sdr.ru/
2011-09-16 22:22 <whitequark> ah yes, I've seen that some time ago
2011-09-16 22:22 <whitequark> thanks, anyway
2011-09-16 22:22 <kristianpaul> as you can see he made a board, but i havent asked about sourcing history
2011-09-16 22:24 <kristianpaul> same position, well i havent orderen from digikey as the rule seems to be i must make those 50Usd shiping (plus aroudn 20% in taxes) to worth :/
2011-09-16 22:24 <whitequark> kristianpaul, it's $120 to russia, but there is a way to avoid it
2011-09-16 22:24 <whitequark> you can use one of the USA mail forwarding services, they are pretty cheap
2011-09-16 22:25 <whitequark> the one I use is $10/month and has no per-package fee
2011-09-16 22:26 <kristianpaul> what about taxes?
2011-09-16 22:26 <whitequark> for a $50 order, they've charged me something like $4.33 in taxes
2011-09-16 22:26 <kristianpaul> not bad
2011-09-16 22:28 <whitequark> digikey isn't any cheaper compared to some good russian retailers (they're on par overall), but they have everything, unlike the latter
2011-09-16 22:28 <whitequark> and, more importantly, they're selling that 'everything' from one piece
2011-09-16 22:29 <kristianpaul> very important indeed
2011-09-16 22:29 <kristianpaul> we're not all sharism ;-)
2011-09-16 22:29 <whitequark> I can buy SMD caps (and similar things) like 10 times cheaper here, but when I have a need for an LVDS serializer, I'm out of luck
2011-09-16 22:30 <kristianpaul> this ail forwarding service, uses USPS?
2011-09-16 22:30 <kristianpaul> s/ail/mail
2011-09-16 22:31 <kristianpaul> cause if i found a shop similar to diigikey that ship by USPS, i'll be happy 
2011-09-16 22:31 <kristianpaul> zero taxes :)
2011-09-16 22:32 <kristianpaul> no matter if i must wait even a month, but if arrives no problem
2011-09-16 22:32 <whitequark> kristianpaul: http://shipito.com
2011-09-16 22:38 <kristianpaul> excelent !
2011-09-16 22:38 <kristianpaul> USPS Priority Mail, right way i can afford :)
2011-09-16 22:44 <kristianpaul> oh, they even have warehouse in china
2011-09-16 22:48 <kristianpaul> "For shipments valued over $20, the sender must have a copy of his or her commercial invoice legalized by a Colombian Consulate, and must prepare 4 copies of a consular invoice, one of which must be sent direct to the addressee with the legalized commercial invoice. "
2011-09-16 22:49 <kristianpaul> lol
2011-09-16 22:50 <kristianpaul> thast not true, i never had to go consulate and i already received intems declared about 800usd by USPS and UPS