2011-09-05 01:26 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/Makefile: increased engraving depth from 0.2 mm to 0.5 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/fd6b95d 2011-09-05 01:26 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/font.fpd: increased banana jack hole from 6 mm to 8 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/1d4b89e 2011-09-05 05:03 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTg3MA 2011-09-05 08:54 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: new gnuplot tag #%id= with generator-assigned identifier (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a42a18f 2011-09-05 08:54 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/shape.c: removed global "path" variable (where did that madness come from ?) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a67d0b4 2011-09-05 08:54 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/LOG: added front plate milling results (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/e67eab1 2011-09-05 08:54 [commit] Werner Almesberger: mech/doit: store cameo job in temporary file, for easier debugging (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/96cd3dd 2011-09-05 08:54 [commit] Werner Almesberger: mech/front.fpd: increased banana jack hole diameter from 8.0 mm to 8.1 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/d0309ad 2011-09-05 10:39 The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09052011-0212/ 2011-09-05 11:12 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/path.c (path_replace): free the old ID (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/828763b 2011-09-05 11:12 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: make tool_comp_paths output paths in the order processed (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/639b0fa 2011-09-05 11:12 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/mech/Makefile: fixed error handling of pipes; target "pos" for positioning (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/3dc74fc 2011-09-05 13:25 wolfspraul: think we can talk jon out of HTML5 ? :) 2011-09-05 13:26 wolfspraul: it eerily reminds me of sean's plan to bring Processing to the FreeRunner ... 2011-09-05 13:26 wpwrak: no I think that's just a misunderstanding, so it's good we talk about 2011-09-05 13:26 heh, here he is :) 2011-09-05 13:26 wolfspraul: ah, tell me then 2011-09-05 13:27 we need service that will process html5 on Qi HW cloud and return image back to NN user :) 2011-09-05 13:27 nobody thinks the NanoNote will become an iphone or android killing browsing machine 2011-09-05 13:27 via wpan, sure :) 2011-09-05 13:27 Jay7: and let's not forget the Qi++ button :-) 2011-09-05 13:27 well, except some people that don't see the irony of their constant comparisons to great Android phones :-) 2011-09-05 13:27 no wait 2011-09-05 13:27 it's a different horizon 2011-09-05 13:27 Jon thinks long-term 2011-09-05 13:27 in long-term we need Ya NN 2011-09-05 13:27 he sees html5+css+js as the 'free app store' 2011-09-05 13:28 wolfspraul: i think he wants to lower the bar for developers 2011-09-05 13:28 wait 2011-09-05 13:28 with 1Gb of RAM and 1GHz CPU :) 2011-09-05 13:28 hides 2011-09-05 13:28 wolfspraul: and maybe snatch up some who currently do things on iPhone, Android, etc. 2011-09-05 13:28 whats really missing to become a iphone killer is vendor lockin. 2011-09-05 13:28 so one is short-term and I 100% agree with Freemor's post on the list 2011-09-05 13:28 larsc: gsm part? :) 2011-09-05 13:29 larsc: next item for sourcing research: shackles :) 2011-09-05 13:29 and one is long-term thinking, and there really is no alternative to html5 I think 2011-09-05 13:29 it's just the best (if it works :-)) 2011-09-05 13:29 Jay7: the whole thing. and non-replacable batteries 2011-09-05 13:29 gsm and wifi - that is needed for end users... 2011-09-05 13:29 wolfspraul: do you think "native" applications will simply die in the long run ? 2011-09-05 13:29 well, s/gsm/3G/ 2011-09-05 13:29 no 2011-09-05 13:29 it's a big world 2011-09-05 13:30 Jon calls it the 'haircut kids' 2011-09-05 13:30 how do we get the haircut kids to a copyleft device, any copyleft device, ever 2011-09-05 13:30 but we may just play on tablet/readers market 2011-09-05 13:30 with an html5/css/js solution 2011-09-05 13:30 w/o phone/wifi 2011-09-05 13:30 with wpan 2011-09-05 13:30 the haircut kids won't buy the nanonote today or tomorrow 2011-09-05 13:30 and the 'real' hackers will always prefer something natively written in C, right? 2011-09-05 13:30 (I would :-)) 2011-09-05 13:30 wolfspraul: sure :) 2011-09-05 13:31 btw 2011-09-05 13:31 but it's a big world, and we cannot hide in hacker happiness, we have to be open minded to the real world as well 2011-09-05 13:31 scary ... UPS just cpmplained about a brown-out. seems that everything is still up, though. well, except my fluke rebooted. it's always the quickest. 2011-09-05 13:31 http://news.kalpa.ru/search/label/English 2011-09-05 13:31 check this 2011-09-05 13:31 that's where html5/css/js comes in, whenever that is and on whatever device 2011-09-05 13:32 platform for quick development rich Qt-based apps to run via network 2011-09-05 13:32 Qt is strong and will remain 2011-09-05 13:32 but I personally wouldn't touch it either 2011-09-05 13:32 I've tested it via gprs channel and it works fine 2011-09-05 13:32 I honestly think ncurses will see a second (third, fourth, whatever) life 2011-09-05 13:32 but will HTML%+etc. be enough for the "haircut kids" ? or will they basically expect the full feature set of an igadget ? 2011-09-05 13:32 I think we will see scripted gui apps 2011-09-05 13:32 and so on 2011-09-05 13:33 but what about html5? 2011-09-05 13:33 if there is any chance for a 'free app store', ever, then it's going to be via html5 (including offline), css/js 2011-09-05 13:33 we have no possibility to run html5+js+blablabla on NN 2011-09-05 13:33 32Mb is not enough 2011-09-05 13:33 i'm not against html5, btw. i see the issue more with putting resources into making what it currently a very heavy environment somehow work on weak hardware 2011-09-05 13:34 because it may simply not provide the user experience that's expected, even if it's fast enough. e.g., because additional services that are expected to be part of the package are missing 2011-09-05 13:34 you can use zram swap to get more memory, but at the cost of CPU cycles 2011-09-05 13:35 and by the time you add those extra services, your base platform may have become powerful enough to also run the regular implementation of all this stuff 2011-09-05 13:35 better to forget about web2.0 UI apps on Ben NN 2011-09-05 13:35 so your version optimized for weak hardware would basically be useless 2011-09-05 13:35 invest time and money into Ya :) 2011-09-05 13:36 Jay7: ya probably still wouldn't cut it. but yes, that's what i'd rather do, too :) 2011-09-05 13:36 wpwrak: if we want to run web2.0 apps on Ya we should adapt HW 2011-09-05 13:37 thats only easy way 2011-09-05 13:37 and it's cheaper imho 2011-09-05 13:37 wolfspraul: (free app store) dunno. we already have "free app stores". opkg ... and poof, there it is. it all works already. maybe needs a friendlier frontend, but the infrastructure has been around for a good while and works quite well. 2011-09-05 13:37 (but is a bit wrong from my point) 2011-09-05 13:39 Jon (and I) don't doubt at all that opkg/rpm/deb etc. will go away or be replaced 2011-09-05 13:39 but the dns is also not to forget, the 'free web' 2011-09-05 13:39 and with html5 you basically just need to visit a site, then the app will be 'installed' 2011-09-05 13:39 oops typoe 2011-09-05 13:39 I meant "don't doubt at all that opkg/rpm/deb/etc. will stay" 2011-09-05 13:39 too many negations 2011-09-05 13:39 so of course they stay 2011-09-05 13:39 and grow 2011-09-05 13:40 but that's one particular way of doing things 2011-09-05 13:40 signed sources, community review, etc. etc. 2011-09-05 13:40 all fine 2011-09-05 13:40 but you think every little hotel chain will get their 'app' into Debian 2011-09-05 13:40 they wouldn't even be welcome, at all 2011-09-05 13:42 naw, they don't have to. you don't need to go via the distribution. 2011-09-05 13:42 and are you saying that, if the nanonote supports html5+etc., you expect to be able to run "web apps" that aren't written specifically for the nanonote ? 2011-09-05 13:43 I already explained short-term and long-term 2011-09-05 13:43 this is more Jon thinking big 2011-09-05 13:43 5 years 2011-09-05 13:43 many devices 2011-09-05 13:43 10 years 2011-09-05 13:43 nowadays he runs about talking about "2030" 2011-09-05 13:43 :-) 2011-09-05 13:43 that's 19 years from now 2011-09-05 13:43 that different horizon explains most of the misunderstanding 2011-09-05 13:44 hmm, but why does he care about nanonote+html5 now ? 2011-09-05 13:47 if it's a consideration of what we should plan to start doing in a decade, fine. html5, css, js, probably won't be around then anymore, but something similar will be. 2011-09-05 13:48 oh, html5 for sure will be around in 10 years 2011-09-05 13:48 isn't it already 5 or more in the making? :-) 2011-09-05 13:48 those things become very big and inert 2011-09-05 13:49 but sure, if Apple goes all the way to the moon, maybe no more open web at all :-) 2011-09-05 13:49 Safari is already named after the 'jungle' 2011-09-05 13:49 they plant the seeds early 2011-09-05 13:49 but no I think html5/css/js will stay and will be the free app store 2011-09-05 13:49 or rather, one part of it 2011-09-05 13:50 next to the opkg/rpm/deb/etc. system layers 2011-09-05 13:50 i wouldn't be surprised of js would yield to another language. they come and go at about decade intervals. C++, java, maybe now JS, ... 2011-09-05 13:52 dunno about CSS. also, even if the future HTML5 will still be called "HTML5", it will have grown extensions or have gotten loaded with add-ons, so it'll be different from the thing today. e.g., consider that Flash has become pretty much the lingua franca for quite a lot of web developers 2011-09-05 13:52 I think the inertia of html and anything attached to it is huge and growing 2011-09-05 13:52 unless the open web dies complete and goes the way of gopher, whatever 2011-09-05 13:52 which I doubt 2011-09-05 13:53 i don't think the web as such will die. but the importance of things will shift. see many companies pushing apps to access their content instead of or in addition to the regular web 2011-09-05 14:05 wpwrak: ok did we clarify some of Jon's html5 excitement now? 2011-09-05 14:05 I do share his excitement, but so far the negative reactions all seem like misunderstandings to me 2011-09-05 14:05 in no way do I believe that html5/css/js will become an important way to get apps to the Ben NanoNote 2011-09-05 14:06 but it may still be a good place for some tinkering, some people to start going in that direction, why not. the resource constraints are a plus in my book. 2011-09-05 14:06 and actually this has already been happening for a while, that's why we have 5+ browsers on the Ben :-) 2011-09-05 14:06 Who manufactured the nanonote? 2011-09-05 14:07 me and friends 2011-09-05 14:07 what factory? 2011-09-05 14:07 actually not very precise, you could also say GGV and Sunty 2011-09-05 14:07 ps2chiper: a small factory in shenzhen 2011-09-05 14:08 they have plenty of those 2011-09-05 14:10 indeed 2011-09-05 14:10 thousands 2011-09-05 14:10 but it's still hard work and you need solid workers etc. 2011-09-05 14:10 Did you get your hands dirty? 2011-09-05 14:11 the workers increasingly discover their rights, which is good 2011-09-05 14:11 'dirty' may be an overestatement 2011-09-05 14:11 when you find me in the copper mine to mine the copper for an upcoming device, I'll be there 2011-09-05 14:11 that would be chile 2011-09-05 14:12 I actually had some plans to work for a mine in Australia at some point 2011-09-05 14:12 he :-) 2011-09-05 14:12 I wanted to see where/how that stuff comes from 2011-09-05 14:12 but well, I didn't put my money where my mouth is on that one yet 2011-09-05 14:12 in terms of Sunty, I did a little work 2011-09-05 14:12 1-2 weeks combined maybe 2011-09-05 14:12 some flashing, testing 2011-09-05 14:12 how come you dont open your own industrial design company? 2011-09-05 14:12 I flashed all 2k nanos :-) 2011-09-05 14:13 i did that on about 5k routers 2011-09-05 14:13 but I cheated, somewhere after a few hundred in the second run the girls who saw me unable to optimize the process further gave me a break and finished in 1/10th of the time I would have taken for the rest 2011-09-05 14:13 the process optimization they are able to do is amazing 2011-09-05 14:14 hats off 2011-09-05 14:14 i see, i can teach you the factory process next time you come to shenzhen 2011-09-05 14:14 my background is manufacturing 2011-09-05 14:14 the key is to quickly see the optimization possibility, since especially on assembly/testing, the process changes often 2011-09-05 14:14 and even though I think I am not stupid, the girls there could easily give me a run for my money 2011-09-05 14:14 I just don't see it! 2011-09-05 14:15 you must be a slow poke 2011-09-05 14:15 i give the chinese a run for there money with my process 2011-09-05 14:15 I doubt it but you are welcome to help on the next run. for free of course, like we all work for free :-) 2011-09-05 14:16 or I'm slow, sure. I think they are good though, so it was a good work on the NanoNote. 2011-09-05 14:16 i worked in the chinese factory before. back in the japanese factory we had to stand on our feet for 12 hours a day 2011-09-05 14:16 you can pay me the chinese salary 2011-09-05 14:16 fair enough 2011-09-05 14:17 wolfspraul: (html5 clarification) okay, thanks ! the sense of urgency that spoke from jon's mail was indeed misleading. i have no problem with considering this as a technology to keep an eye on for the next years :) 2011-09-05 14:17 you got to build a muscle memory. 2011-09-05 14:18 after enough time the process becomes natural and you can work without thinking 2011-09-05 14:18 yes but you need to keep an eye on how to optimize the process 2011-09-05 14:18 nah 2011-09-05 14:18 the goal is to keep it going for months 2011-09-05 14:18 and with many steps and workers that may be not so easy 2011-09-05 14:19 ok I am only doing 1k runs 2011-09-05 14:19 i dont think your quantities are large enough 2011-09-05 14:19 yes 2011-09-05 14:19 1k is just a blip on the radar 2011-09-05 14:19 yeah, back at the headlight factory, we would make average 900 lamps in 12 hours on a 5 man line 2011-09-05 14:19 I don't know much about the process and difficulties of large runs, hundreds of k over months 2011-09-05 14:20 or even millions 2011-09-05 14:20 well chinese dont think 2011-09-05 14:20 they do 2011-09-05 14:20 so even if their process is flawed, they dont care 2011-09-05 14:20 yeah well, it's difficult 2011-09-05 14:20 correct they don't care 2011-09-05 14:20 that's their strength 2011-09-05 14:20 no useless discussions :-) 2011-09-05 14:21 thats one advantage. bad for innovation 2011-09-05 14:21 sure of course 2011-09-05 14:21 but culturally you have to play to your strengths 2011-09-05 14:21 I think we all do that, or should do taht 2011-09-05 14:22 can you give me some commercially viable products? 2011-09-05 14:22 here's food for thought I heard once and liked: chinese are too creative to be productive 2011-09-05 14:22 well i can explain that 2011-09-05 14:23 commercially viable? 2011-09-05 14:23 they are good at incremental fixes 2011-09-05 14:23 don't understand 2011-09-05 14:23 one topic at a time 2011-09-05 14:23 commercially viable is something that has a lot of demand at a high price point :-) 2011-09-05 14:23 no I have no silver bullet 2011-09-05 14:23 back to chinese 2011-09-05 14:24 thats why they never had a industrial revolution. 2011-09-05 14:24 if you like I sell you a Milkymist One for 3500 RMB, that makes it a bit more commercially viable for me ;-) 2011-09-05 14:24 they were so good at quick fixes they never needed to rethink the way they do things 2011-09-05 14:24 correct 2011-09-05 14:24 too creative to be productive 2011-09-05 14:24 always invent things on the spot, but never get to the bottom of the problem 2011-09-05 14:25 but they are too damned good at what they do to care :-) I don't think China or Chinese businesses need an economics lesson 2011-09-05 14:25 so our factory does stb's we want to have a xbmc with dvb tuner support 2011-09-05 14:25 definitely not from a crazy money loosing 'entrepreneur' like me 2011-09-05 14:27 its hard to find good programmers in shenzhne 2011-09-05 14:27 who would be surprised 2011-09-05 14:27 it's hard to find a good assembly factory in San Francisco 2011-09-05 14:27 have you been drinking tonight, are you always this joyous? 2011-09-05 14:27 no beer yet! 2011-09-05 14:28 don't look for programmers there, that simple 2011-09-05 14:28 well if you come up with some good ideas for products, ill help you out. 2011-09-05 14:28 easier said then done 2011-09-05 14:29 the few good ones will work for big foreign brands and make real money, and that's what they should do 2011-09-05 14:29 and then the good foreign companies will send them to the US for a master degree, mba, etc. 2011-09-05 14:29 ironically the chinese programmers are starting to make as much as their foreign counterparts 2011-09-05 14:29 yes 2011-09-05 14:29 why is that ironic? 2011-09-05 14:30 because the foreign companies come to china to pay people less money 2011-09-05 14:30 that's a minority now 2011-09-05 14:30 those guys have left for Vietnam, Cambodia, Phillipines, etc. 2011-09-05 14:30 and now with the economic crisis, its leveled out for programmers 2011-09-05 14:30 hire russian programmers 2011-09-05 14:30 definitely 2011-09-05 14:30 they are the best of ;) 2011-09-05 14:31 and cheap enough :) 2011-09-05 14:31 i got a friend from latvia 2011-09-05 14:31 seriously, that's a good idea 2011-09-05 14:31 there you go, close :-) 2011-09-05 14:31 he is a phd student and only makes 2200 usd a month 2011-09-05 14:31 he has been helping me port the FON 2.0n build to my router 2011-09-05 14:31 have about 600-1000 usd/m 2011-09-05 14:31 the shitty part is i cant afford 2500 to hire him full time for my self 2011-09-05 14:32 ps2chiper: hire Jay7 2011-09-05 14:32 would he like to come work in shenzhen 2011-09-05 14:32 i know another russian guy that does business here 2011-09-05 14:32 but I'm crazy enterpeneur too :) 2011-09-05 14:33 some mix of admin/programmer/it-consultant/etc 2011-09-05 14:33 Do you do profit sharing projects? 2011-09-05 14:34 I'm mostly using opensource software to organize soho-business of my customers 2011-09-05 14:34 can you do embedded stuff 2011-09-05 14:34 xenserver/openfiler/vtigercrm/etc 2011-09-05 14:34 yeah, I'm one from OpenEmbedded side 2011-09-05 14:34 oh yeah 2011-09-05 14:34 ps2chiper: are you selling products in China? 2011-09-05 14:35 have 3 Sharp Zaurus, EfikaMX smarttop and Ben NN :) 2011-09-05 14:35 im not selling jack right now, i need to. 2011-09-05 14:35 kexecboot.org is my project too 2011-09-05 14:35 well, thesing was started it but I'm not leading development 2011-09-05 14:35 *now 2011-09-05 14:36 as Jon pointed the HTML5 sounded to me like something to NOW, i guess thats when the confussion began 2011-09-05 14:36 Do you do openwrt work? 2011-09-05 14:37 ps2chiper: no, I've not using OW now 2011-09-05 14:37 of course wolfgang pointed it like a new path, but that make sense if you're aware of projects like milkymist perhaps 2011-09-05 14:37 i had a few ideas for it, Jay7 2011-09-05 14:37 ps2chiper: kyak is russian OW developer ;) 2011-09-05 14:38 when does he get online? 2011-09-05 14:38 he will say when will be around imho 2011-09-05 14:39 so you may describe your ideas here and he will look later :) 2011-09-05 14:40 well for 1 pcb to work for clock radio and voip phone 2011-09-05 14:50 #colibri 2011-09-05 14:50 how do you guys feel about samsung exynos? 2011-09-05 14:50 oops 2011-09-05 15:00 ps2chiper: what is that? 2011-09-05 15:00 samsungs dual core a9 soc 2011-09-05 15:00 pretty powerful 2011-09-05 15:00 i may get access to that one 2011-09-05 15:00 the only issue is it cost 24 usd each 2011-09-05 15:00 oh some of their new soc 2011-09-05 15:01 I'm past Samsung on SoCs 2011-09-05 15:01 why is that? 2011-09-05 15:01 but I would say the same about TI and many others 2011-09-05 15:02 samsung has open userspace 2011-09-05 15:02 well I don't know. I think those chips are flawed. it's a race. 2011-09-05 15:02 also linaro supports ubuntu for it 2011-09-05 15:02 they are hastily designed, hastily produced, hastily stuffed into products 2011-09-05 15:02 seems like a new soc every month 2011-09-05 15:02 you ask for my opinion, now I give you my opinion, unfiltered 2011-09-05 15:02 opinions come a dime a dozen 2011-09-05 15:03 ARM SoCs are kind of like mushrooms 2011-09-05 15:03 i didnt say you were wrong 2011-09-05 15:03 so I think those are products for the top-50 consumer electronics brands in the world, something like that 2011-09-05 15:03 its hard to avoid mips 2011-09-05 15:03 arm 2011-09-05 15:03 you have to have a big engineering team to pull it off, everything has to be big 2011-09-05 15:04 and before long, the chip is gone 2011-09-05 15:04 nothing to see there, imho 2011-09-05 15:04 do you have a ipad or iphone? 2011-09-05 15:05 no 2011-09-05 15:05 what kind of phone do you have 2011-09-05 15:05 too boring and predictable 2011-09-05 15:05 hardly any one, I bought the cheapest I could find in Shenzhen once, 118 RMB 2011-09-05 15:06 i have a iphone clone i got for free 2011-09-05 15:06 118 rmb is pretty cheap. dont drop it 2011-09-05 15:07 I bought 15 of them 2011-09-05 15:08 :-) 2011-09-05 15:08 actually I had so many I threw some away, bad me 2011-09-05 15:08 should have kept some since the one I have now has pretty bad signal strength 2011-09-05 15:08 i want one 2011-09-05 15:08 there is a hotel on my street, 120 rmb a day 2011-09-05 15:09 i can pick you up from the airport and drop you off 2011-09-05 15:23 you scared him away 2011-09-05 15:27 that or he went out for his beer. 2011-09-05 15:28 wolfspraul, do you like chinese beer 2011-09-05 15:29 he left the channel 2011-09-05 15:46 ps2chiper: can you check out if you get freescale chips for a good price? 2011-09-05 15:47 no, i dont have a connection to a freescale distributor. i can get amlogic for a good price. 2011-09-05 15:48 ps2chiper: amlogic has no documentation public. freescale doesnt need registragion at all. they just have the pdf on the web. 2011-09-05 15:48 i got them, i can give them to you if you want 2011-09-05 15:49 no. i want the for EVERYONE. 2011-09-05 15:49 you can give them to everyone 2011-09-05 15:49 roh: how un-chinese of you ;-) 2011-09-05 15:49 i dont buy chips without documentation for everyone 2011-09-05 15:49 then you should pay full price for freescale to show your support6 2011-09-05 15:49 sorry.. dont get me wrong. please send them, but redistribution is difficult for everbody outside of china 2011-09-05 15:50 ps2chiper: not an issue. their stuff isnt that expensive from my pov. 2011-09-05 15:50 how much are you willing to pay for imx535? 2011-09-05 15:51 see it that way.. if you buy a soc for 3$ and sell the device... when it arrives in europe its costs about 80$ minimum. so i dont care if the cpu costs 3$ or 5$, or even 10$, since the uppriceing happens elsewhere (and isnt linear) 2011-09-05 15:53 thats not true 2011-09-05 15:53 normally the way it works is you take the factory cost, double it and thats what you pay 2011-09-05 15:56 ps2chiper: the imx535 is expensive (if available at distris at all) .. around 24$ 2011-09-05 15:56 ps2chiper: well. double is not reality for sales in europe or the us. 2011-09-05 15:56 well the rumor is that the im535 is 18 usd in china 2011-09-05 15:57 I guess you guys pay triple in that case 2011-09-05 15:57 what does a imx28 cost you? 2011-09-05 15:57 is imx28 still in production? 2011-09-05 15:58 also give me the full part purchasing number from the datasheet. it makes it easier for me to look them up. 2011-09-05 15:59 well. doesnt really matter anyways. would need to look that up also 2011-09-05 16:00 there are about 8 versions with different packages/features 2011-09-05 16:00 anyhow. you save money on development because the linux port is already done and of high quality 2011-09-05 16:01 well that is a difference of opinion, it depends on how many units you produce and what price you sell them for. then contrast it against the cost of software development 2011-09-05 16:02 if your selling 10k of something. and the price difference is 5 dollars. it makes sense to try and use a cheaper soc if you can improve the bsp. 2011-09-05 16:02 thats something they are doing for ingenic 2011-09-05 16:04 ps2chiper: another factor is 'size' ..amlogic seems 'tiny' and i wouldnt know if they are still there in 5 years. 2011-09-05 16:04 jeez, you know how fast soc's get eol'ed 2011-09-05 16:05 to be fair.. i havent heard about them before you mentioned it. also i dont have a device with any of their soc (and i know whats inside my hw) 2011-09-05 16:05 it seems like the normal life span of a soc is 2-3 years if that 2011-09-05 16:05 where are you from roh? 2011-09-05 16:05 germany. 2011-09-05 16:05 germany is one of the hardest countries in the world to sell electronics 2011-09-05 16:05 my boss works for katheirn receivers if you know of them. 2011-09-05 16:06 maybe. but its reality that i still see products with really old soc coming in new. like old samsung 2442 etc. 2011-09-05 16:06 looong eoled.. doesnt matter. still there. 2011-09-05 16:06 i know kathrein. yes. i would never sell a stb from them (sw sucks) 2011-09-05 16:06 also totally overpriced 2011-09-05 16:07 they have great cables and antennas (what the company builds themselves for decades) .. but they go no clue about digital stuff. 2011-09-05 16:07 try not to insult my boss, please 2011-09-05 16:08 i am not trying to. just stating my experiences as somebody who installed such equipment for customers for years. 2011-09-05 16:08 you can direct your complaints to katheirn 2011-09-05 16:08 the stb stuff from them looks like 'cheap oem' to me. dunno it thats true. 2011-09-05 16:09 lots of companies do that. (oem lots of stuff, only build the ones you know yourself) .. but that makes sw not better and customers not more happy. companies should sell what they REALLY know how to do. 2011-09-05 16:09 i dont work for katherin 2011-09-05 16:09 ps2chiper: roh likes to rant every once in a while. he usually cools down after an hour or so ;-) 2011-09-05 16:09 they build their own stuff in china 2011-09-05 16:09 means: quality is everything. 2011-09-05 16:10 ps2chiper: i am just trying to explain my sight on that market. most devices with a german brand label are oem. only a very few are developed locally (and even less built). 2011-09-05 16:11 I can introduce you to the chinese guy that does the software on them. i met him face to face 2011-09-05 16:15 ps2chiper: not neccessary. i am luckily (for me) out of that market and job.. selling ce electronic is not fun with such a market (no money to earn by selling and mostly devices with bad bugs which annoy customers which then annoy me ;) 2011-09-05 16:15 ps2chiper, what's inside the amlogic chips? CPU core licensed from ARM, SDRAM controller (also licensed I guess), PowerVR, ? 2011-09-05 16:19 supporting html5/css/javascript as a new app framework to run on copyleft hardware is not crazy, except it requires a lot more hardware resource than Ben Nanonote provides. 2011-09-05 16:20 rjeffries: ignore the sw part (html5 etc.) focus on hw facts 2011-09-05 16:20 im back 2011-09-05 16:21 In order to be sucessful in copyleft world would need to be in addition to classic linux tools, not a replacement 2011-09-05 16:21 i will upload the QRM Quick Reference manual to megashares for everyone 2011-09-05 16:21 hi roh the hardware facts are pretty obvious to moi. ;) 2011-09-05 16:23 rjeffries: sorry.. just rambling.. hw vendors often try to 'make more wind' or 'confuse' the view of customers by mixing sw stuff in hw factsheets.. which makes no sense and has no value besides 'more things in the table' ;) 2011-09-05 16:23 the problem is the android bsp 2011-09-05 16:23 http://d01.megashares.com/dl/6944bb4/AML8726-M_QRM%20V1.3%2020110620_clean.pdf 2011-09-05 16:25 the gpu is an arm mali 2011-09-05 16:27 ps2chiper: thanks.. to you also have a datasheet with register level details? 2011-09-05 16:28 ps2chiper are you working with Amlogic? 2011-09-05 16:28 not yet, i have to put in a request 2011-09-05 16:28 yes our company has a NDA with amlogic in place that lets us get the inside stuff. very slowley 2011-09-05 16:28 if they share details, at first glance this SOC looks pretty powerful. on eof many however 2011-09-05 16:29 ps2chiper I assume the SOC comes from China? 2011-09-05 16:29 well also amlogic has a usa office 2011-09-05 16:29 well.. its a soc which will require license payments for mpeg etc. 2011-09-05 16:29 but yes it comes from china 2011-09-05 16:29 of you will have shredderware on the tollboth 2011-09-05 16:29 do amlogic have any design-ins yet for this soc 2011-09-05 16:29 i dont care about licenses if i do that well, i will be proud to get sued 2011-09-05 16:30 thats why we are using them. they support dvb pretty well 2011-09-05 16:30 ps2chiper: not you, but the distributor will (usually) 2011-09-05 16:30 except they expect us to use android as the dvb interface 2011-09-05 16:31 ps2chiper remind us what is dvb 2011-09-05 16:31 most mp3 players sold dont have license rights 2011-09-05 16:31 ps2chiper: thats why there are many devices which do never make it to eu and us, since nobody takes the risk/work of license management and importing 2011-09-05 16:31 how many of those get sued 2011-09-05 16:31 android has a dvb-interface? 2011-09-05 16:31 I googled but got nothiung useful 2011-09-05 16:31 amlogic created it 2011-09-05 16:31