2011-09-03 09:31 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: made trace connecting the relays to 5V look less accidental (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/d8d3727
2011-09-03 09:31 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: changed hole in DIP from 0.5 mm to 0.8 mm, ratio from 2.5 to 2 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/2a08a7d
2011-09-03 09:31 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: changed resistors for opto-coupler LEDs from 180 to 150 Ohm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/14f70fd
2011-09-03 09:31 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/sw/: basic firmware - just enumerates (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/e73383b
2011-09-03 09:31 <wpwrak> hmm, s/\/sw\//fw/
2011-09-03 15:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/fw/: added simple button -> LED / relay change loop (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/5649c89
2011-09-03 15:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/labsw.sch: label "IN_1" was in italics - changed to normal (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/513f3f8
2011-09-03 15:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/LOG: log of development (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/cc65307
2011-09-03 19:13 <ps2chiper> hello
2011-09-03 19:13 <larsc> hi ps2chiper
2011-09-03 19:14 <ps2chiper> I have a hardware project i would like to do, i told larsc about it already. its an ubuntu thin client based on amlogic. but i dont know if it would be copyleft approved
2011-09-03 19:17 <ps2chiper> hey larsc, when is this channel most active?
2011-09-03 19:20 <larsc> usually when there is an interesting subject to discuess ;)
2011-09-03 19:21 <ps2chiper> poor me
2011-09-03 19:22 <ps2chiper> larsc do you work for a solution company like windriver?
2011-09-03 19:22 <larsc> give it some time, people in here are from all around the world so some might be asleep
2011-09-03 19:22 <larsc> ps2chiper: never!
2011-09-03 19:23 <ps2chiper> i understand, i just want to know what time to be on at.
2011-09-03 19:23 <ps2chiper> what do you do for work in that case?
2011-09-03 19:23 <larsc> a semiconductor company
2011-09-03 19:24 <ps2chiper> can you name said company?
2011-09-03 19:24 <larsc> analog devices
2011-09-03 19:26 <ps2chiper> speaking of them, do you have a switch for controlling the power of a usb port by gpio?
2011-09-03 19:27 <larsc> most likely yes
2011-09-03 19:27 <ps2chiper> do you have the sales guy email address that could help me locate that part?
2011-09-03 19:28 <larsc> nope
2011-09-03 19:28 <ps2chiper> any way to help me on that issue at all?
2011-09-03 19:29 <larsc> not really
2011-09-03 19:29 <ps2chiper> thanks anyway
2011-09-03 19:29 <ps2chiper> what products do you work on?
2011-09-03 19:30 <larsc> audio codecs right now
2011-09-03 19:31 <ps2chiper> do you have any that are spi and pcm compatible, i had some openwrt ideas i wanted to look into
2011-09-03 19:31 <larsc> mostly all of them are
2011-09-03 19:31 <larsc> some though only have an i2c control port
2011-09-03 19:32 <ps2chiper> can you compete with realtek price wise?
2011-09-03 19:32 <larsc> i don't know realtek prices
2011-09-03 19:32 <ps2chiper> about 2 usd
2011-09-03 19:33 <larsc> depends on what kind of codec you want, but generally yes
2011-09-03 19:34 <larsc> and quantiy of course
2011-09-03 19:34 <ps2chiper> like 10k quanity
2011-09-03 19:34 <ps2chiper> quantity
2011-09-03 19:35 <ps2chiper> i had an idea for openwrt clock radio and openwrt phone
2011-09-03 19:36 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: (thin client) so ... what are you looking for ?
2011-09-03 19:37 <ps2chiper> im not a programmer, i need help with the software. i was told that if the bsp is good enough it can easy enough to get ubuntu running. but since its android based it could require serious hacking. or cant run ubuntu without a vanilla kernel from amlogic
2011-09-03 19:39 <wpwrak> a bsp is usually a losing proposition, since these tend to be frozen somewhere in the past. of course, if you get one that's actively maintained ...
2011-09-03 19:39 <ps2chiper> well the public kernel is at .34. i dont mind 10.04 ubuntu since that is a lts
2011-09-03 19:40 <wpwrak> a bsp can be a starting point for making a kernel that is actually long-term viable, though. whether this works of not depends on whether the bsp includes binary-only stuff
2011-09-03 19:40 <ps2chiper> they dont have the userspace for the gpu available, so i doubt that will happen.
2011-09-03 19:40 <ps2chiper> the only reason i want to use amlogic is because its so cheap and easy to build
2011-09-03 19:40 <ps2chiper> only a 4 layer pcb and a soc cost of 13 usd
2011-09-03 19:40 <wpwrak> cheap, as in "hidden cost" ? ;-)
2011-09-03 19:41 <ps2chiper> what do you mean by hidden cost?
2011-09-03 19:41 <wpwrak> some things cost you very little upfront. but you have to spend a lot of work to make them do what you want.
2011-09-03 19:42 <ps2chiper> if your talking software, all the vendors these days are hell bent on android
2011-09-03 19:42 <wpwrak> also, amlogic is an entire system, right ? can you be sure the platform will be available for a while, without major changes ? or are you talking about what is commonly called an "anti-vendor port" ?
2011-09-03 19:42 <ps2chiper> hardware wise is not a problem since i work for a factory in shenzhen
2011-09-03 19:43 <wpwrak> so you're saying you can make the hardware, no matter what amlogic decide to do ?
2011-09-03 19:43 <ps2chiper> well the amlogic soc was built with dvb in mind. amlogic is supposed to make their dvb code public this month too. 
2011-09-03 19:44 <ps2chiper> well we are already using their platform to build a stb, we are going to try to port xbmc to it.
2011-09-03 19:44 <ps2chiper> key word try
2011-09-03 19:44 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-09-03 19:44 <ps2chiper> but they have that crappy android media player with a dvb tuner menu
2011-09-03 19:44 <ps2chiper> so we are going to use that to build dvb-t/c/s2/atsc devices 
2011-09-03 19:45 <wpwrak> neither stb or xbmc tell me anything. but ubuntu means basically linux. yet it sounds you're looking for more specific features ?
2011-09-03 19:45 <ps2chiper> and pray we can get openelec to work
2011-09-03 19:45 <ps2chiper> me, i feel that i could build a amlogic system at a bom cost of 30-40usd
2011-09-03 19:46 <ps2chiper> and im an ubuntu user, so i want to build ubuntu hardware
2011-09-03 19:46 <wpwrak> what would the hardware do ?
2011-09-03 19:46 <ps2chiper> except that aint easy with no devs that want to work on profit sharing
2011-09-03 19:46 <ps2chiper> which hardware are you talking about, stb or thin client
2011-09-03 19:46 <wpwrak> the hardware you can build for 30-40 USD BOM
2011-09-03 19:47 <ps2chiper> a mini itx board
2011-09-03 19:47 <wpwrak> so it's x86 ?
2011-09-03 19:47 <ps2chiper> no, i mean 17cm x 17cm size so it can fit in mini itx cases
2011-09-03 19:48 <wpwrak> ok. itx form factor. what would it do ? boot, say "hello, world !", then shut down ?
2011-09-03 19:48 <ps2chiper> well thats why i am trying to hunt down a dev that would like to help put ubuntu on it
2011-09-03 19:49 <ps2chiper> i wouldnt build hardware without software
2011-09-03 19:50 <wpwrak> if you want to "put ubuntu on it", then you probably have to talk to shuttleworth or someone high-ranking at ubuntu
2011-09-03 19:50 <ps2chiper> ive been chasing eric miao for months
2011-09-03 19:50 <ps2chiper> he always puts it off, so i am trying to find someone else
2011-09-03 19:50 <ps2chiper> i dont care if its official or not at this point
2011-09-03 19:51 <wpwrak> if you want to build a platform that could run any distribution, including ubuntu, you'd have smaller piece of work on your hands
2011-09-03 19:51 <wpwrak> whether you'd find someone who'd do whatever is necessary to make ubuntu run on it, is another question
2011-09-03 19:51 <ps2chiper> amlogic hardware is already for sale, has been for a few months
2011-09-03 19:52 <wpwrak> i suppose, a prerequisite may still be that it runs debian
2011-09-03 19:52 <ps2chiper> just from an average user stand point, they would demand ubuntu
2011-09-03 19:52 <wpwrak> so what you're looking for is a strategic alliance with ubuntu
2011-09-03 19:52 <ps2chiper> what other people do with the hardware is up to them, i will always supply my code to the public
2011-09-03 19:53 <ps2chiper> no more than qi hardware has a strategic alliance with openwrt
2011-09-03 19:54 <roh> ubuntu is only good on powerfull machines. i dont see any sense in using it for stuff thats optimized to be used like an appliance (which stb defintively fits into)
2011-09-03 19:54 <wpwrak> so ubuntu .. hmm, approval, isn't a prerequisite for you to make the hardware and/or make regular linux run on it ?
2011-09-03 19:54 <ps2chiper> well they have an imx535 board that ships with ubuntu, people say that runs fine
2011-09-03 19:55 <roh> its more a question of 'does it make sense'
2011-09-03 19:55 <wpwrak> roh: for better or worse, ubuntu is recently targeting small devices. tablets and such
2011-09-03 19:55 <ps2chiper> well with the hardware video decoding, it does make sense since it wont have problems watching movies
2011-09-03 19:55 <ps2chiper> most task dont require that much power
2011-09-03 19:55 <ps2chiper> im using a 4 year old pc right now
2011-09-03 19:55 <roh> a distro like openwrt is simply spoken much more intended to be used as appliance compared to a 'multi-hw-desktop/server'-distro like ubuntu or debian.
2011-09-03 19:56 <ps2chiper> i think unity is for arm tablets
2011-09-03 19:56 <ps2chiper> it doesnt feel right on a desktop
2011-09-03 19:56 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-09-03 19:56 <roh> wpwrak: i know. but it has not much to do with the regular ubuntu branches and its fuckingly slow on these devices. and you need a completely reworked ui since on touch/remote only devices no regular desktop apps or ui makes any sense.
2011-09-03 19:57 <wpwrak> roh: well, they;ve been busy dumbing down the UI ...
2011-09-03 19:57 <roh> wpwrak: in the end... if you do not have a disk, fast internet and a cpu >=800mhz its no fun to use a desktop os
2011-09-03 19:57 <ps2chiper> thats why if the amlogic .34 kernel can support 10.04, it would be good enough to start with and just run the project for year and do another one based on a newer soc later on
2011-09-03 19:57 <wpwrak> roh: just wait, a few more years, and it will all be just one button - like the rotten fruit's mouse :)
2011-09-03 19:58 <wpwrak> (actually, do apple mice still have just one button, like in the old days, or have they grown more ?)
2011-09-03 19:58 <roh> wpwrak: maybe. still makes no sense/things easier to build an appliance from it. besides.. support for ubuntu based ce-devices (pdas, pads etc) is really bad. you basically are stuck with what you got it with. usually you already have no support for your special hw one major release later (1 year)
2011-09-03 19:58 <viric> kyak: ping
2011-09-03 19:59 <wpwrak> roh: hmm, but that's not an intrinsic ubuntu problem
2011-09-03 19:59 <roh> so from my perspective... building a device without keyboard+mouse/touchpad/touchscreen, dont use ubuntu, use openwrt or similar.
2011-09-03 19:59 <ps2chiper> come on guys, i just want to build a cheap ubuntu thin client. not debate philosophy
2011-09-03 19:59 <roh> wpwrak: it is for any 'big vendor <-> small vendor vertical' check history.
2011-09-03 20:00 <roh> ps2chiper: there are zillions. why care?
2011-09-03 20:00 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: i think ubuntu is secondary to your project. the first step would to be have control of the platform. that may also include determining which peripherals you can't support, due to non-open drivers.
2011-09-03 20:00 <viric> ps2chiper: you are free to make an ubuntu for the nanonote :)
2011-09-03 20:00 <roh> ps2chiper: besides. as soon as you can run ubuntu on it its NOT a 'thin' client anymore, by definition.
2011-09-03 20:00 <ps2chiper> i dont think their are zillions, and no i dont see a mips release of ubuntu
2011-09-03 20:01 <ps2chiper> you guys are beating me down
2011-09-03 20:01 <roh> ps2chiper: if you want advice... dont use any soc where you do not have ALL source.
2011-09-03 20:01 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: i thought you said it was an ARM device ?
2011-09-03 20:01 <ps2chiper> i do have all the source except the gpu
2011-09-03 20:01 <ps2chiper> ingenic is mips, right?
2011-09-03 20:02 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: can you do what you need without using the non-open parts of the GPU ?
2011-09-03 20:02 <larsc> roh: don't use a soc where the source is upstream
2011-09-03 20:02 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: yes, it's MIPS
2011-09-03 20:02 <ps2chiper> well why cant i use the gpu?
2011-09-03 20:02 <wpwrak> larsc: huh ?
2011-09-03 20:02 <ps2chiper> http://openlinux.amlogic.com/wiki/index.php/Arm
2011-09-03 20:02 <larsc> wpwrak: !
2011-09-03 20:02 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: you said you don't have the sources -> it's not usable
2011-09-03 20:03 <roh> ps2chiper: if you dont have gpu source , use another soc.
2011-09-03 20:03 <ps2chiper> how is a binary blob gpu driver not usuable. im just stuck with their kernel
2011-09-03 20:03 <wpwrak> larsc: "don't use a soc where the source is upstream" = don't use something that already works ? :)
2011-09-03 20:03 <ps2chiper> ingenic
2011-09-03 20:03 <ps2chiper> their new soc has the binary blob gpu now
2011-09-03 20:03 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: i think you answered your question yourself ;-)
2011-09-03 20:03 <larsc> wpwrak: woops. don't use a soc where the source is _not_ upstream
2011-09-03 20:04 <wpwrak> larsc: aha ! yes, that i can agree with ;-)
2011-09-03 20:04 <roh> or it will cost you loads of time, customers, endless stress and your hair. ah.. and shitloads of money, and you are still not guranteed to solve the problem. simply spoken: do NOT use ANY binary components. they will bite you in the ass.
2011-09-03 20:04 <ps2chiper> but i just want to use 10.04
2011-09-03 20:05 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: forget binary blobs. they'll come back to haunt you. they always do. every single time.
2011-09-03 20:05 <ps2chiper> everyone has blobs,
2011-09-03 20:05 <roh> wrong.
2011-09-03 20:05 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: nyet :)
2011-09-03 20:05 <ps2chiper> who doesnt have a blob?
2011-09-03 20:05 <roh> thats a really old industry-lie from companies like nvidia
2011-09-03 20:05 <ps2chiper> oh god
2011-09-03 20:05 <roh> ps2chiper: i currently dont have on on the machine i am typing on.
2011-09-03 20:05 <larsc> there are different kinds of blobs. blob drivers and blob firmware
2011-09-03 20:05 <ps2chiper> who doesnt use a binary blob on a soc?
2011-09-03 20:06 <ps2chiper> well name one that has open userspace
2011-09-03 20:06 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: ben nanonote, openmoko freerunner, any pc i've owned since 1992, ...
2011-09-03 20:06 <ps2chiper> name one that a person at walmart would buy?
2011-09-03 20:06 <roh> ps2chiper: my thinkpad.
2011-09-03 20:07 <ps2chiper> name one arm or mips soc that has a 3d gpu with an open userspace so its upstream compatible
2011-09-03 20:07 <wpwrak> does s3c2442+glamo count ? :)
2011-09-03 20:07 <wpwrak> ducks
2011-09-03 20:07 <larsc> no
2011-09-03 20:07 <ps2chiper> one that is not eol
2011-09-03 20:07 <roh> ps2chiper: the only blob is userspace and not a driver (flashplayer). thats it. no single driver has a blob which has executable code which runs on the cpu and or any cpu with access to the memory. (blobs you load into something like wifi cards do not count, if the loader is opensource and the driver is foss)
2011-09-03 20:08 <ps2chiper> im not hardcore foss, i like foss but i work with in my limitations
2011-09-03 20:08 <roh> ps2chiper: thats not the point at all.
2011-09-03 20:09 <ps2chiper> if i have to take it up the a$$ from an soc vendor, i try to do it with a smile
2011-09-03 20:09 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: perhaps that's why you perceive a general absence of developers in that area - people with the necessary experience know that there's nothing but pain for them there :)
2011-09-03 20:09 <roh> ps2chiper: its simply that we ALL have only bad experiences with blobs. basically a blob in the driver framework is a warranty to fail as a business. you simply have no chance to support your customers.
2011-09-03 20:09 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: the sane approach is to simply ignore any features that require a closed driver. then decide whether the platform still makes sense.
2011-09-03 20:09 <ps2chiper> i understand you guys, if i had a 50 million dollars, i would build my own open 3d gpu for foss to avoid these problems
2011-09-03 20:10 <roh> every blob containing driver is making sure that you will be fixed at that kernelversion/abi.
2011-09-03 20:10 <ps2chiper> i know, but there is nobody i know that doesnt have this issue currently
2011-09-03 20:10 <larsc> if you had 50 million dollers you could pay the company which does the blob to release a blob for your system
2011-09-03 20:10 <larsc> but i guess you don't have
2011-09-03 20:10 <ps2chiper> not legally
2011-09-03 20:11 <ps2chiper> because they wont release it as free software
2011-09-03 20:11 <ps2chiper> so it wouldnt help you unless you want to violate licenses
2011-09-03 20:11 <larsc> no, but they'll recompile it for your kernel
2011-09-03 20:11 <ps2chiper> but how would that help you?
2011-09-03 20:11 <ps2chiper> it needs to be foss to comply with copy left
2011-09-03 20:11 <roh> larsc: not even paying for it would fix the problem that you are stuck with whatever your vendor delivers.
2011-09-03 20:11 <roh> see the gllin desaster.
2011-09-03 20:11 <ps2chiper> thats my point
2011-09-03 20:11 <roh> the vendor was too incompetent to fix the problem.
2011-09-03 20:11 <ps2chiper> try to make do with what they give me
2011-09-03 20:12 <roh> these products are one-shot fails. there is no support. so you need specs/docs and do your support yoursellf.
2011-09-03 20:12 <wpwrak> larsc: it would still suck if you had to depend on them to regenerate their blob for you. e.g., that's roughly the situation with closed GPU drivers for PCs. would you as a kernel developer use one ?
2011-09-03 20:12 <larsc> btw. i think intel is one of the companies who is pushing for a blob free openvr driver
2011-09-03 20:12 <ps2chiper> lets give the gpu issue a break for a few mintues
2011-09-03 20:13 <ps2chiper> how about ralink based openwrt clock radios and voip phones
2011-09-03 20:13 <roh> besides.. what the hell does one really need a 3d gpu for? for a ui? no.
2011-09-03 20:13 <ps2chiper> they have open drivers
2011-09-03 20:13 <ps2chiper> gaming
2011-09-03 20:13 <roh> bwahahahah.
2011-09-03 20:13 <roh> buy a console.
2011-09-03 20:13 <ps2chiper> i own all 3 consoles
2011-09-03 20:13 <ps2chiper> i hate pc gaming, f windows
2011-09-03 20:14 <ps2chiper> everytime i uses my wifes computer, i feel like im watching movie trailers
2011-09-03 20:14 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: don't worry too much about the license. the license just expresses sad practical experience. the unfortunate fact is that essential closed source elements in your system become the one point that will absorb most of your attention and ultimately resources.
2011-09-03 20:14 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: that is, unless you take "fire and forget" approach
2011-09-03 20:14 <wpwrak> s/take/take the/
2011-09-03 20:15 <ps2chiper> i never cared about ip rights
2011-09-03 20:15 <ps2chiper> im in china
2011-09-03 20:15 <wpwrak> china is all about "fire and forget" ;-)
2011-09-03 20:15 <ps2chiper> i know your point of upstream compatibility. but i cant do that with amlogic, yet. but maybe we can just make 10.04 work easily enough
2011-09-03 20:15 <ps2chiper> and that would be great
2011-09-03 20:15 <roh> even if you ignore all the soc problems.. in the end the mpeg-mafia will eat you alive.
2011-09-03 20:16 <wpwrak> make product today. sell tomorrow. after tomorrow, the world may as well end ;-)
2011-09-03 20:16 <ps2chiper> tell that to on2 that got f'ed by china
2011-09-03 20:16 <ps2chiper> make product today. sell tomorrow. after tomorrow, the world may as well end ;-). good enough for me
2011-09-03 20:16 <roh> on2 was bought by google. they are in the dry.
2011-09-03 20:16 <ps2chiper> this was back 5 years ago
2011-09-03 20:17 <ps2chiper> the chinese government wanted their own dvd standard
2011-09-03 20:17 <ps2chiper> they hired on2. got the ip, and discarded them
2011-09-03 20:17 <roh> ps2chiper: ip rights are your major problem in that market. every technical problem is less worrying
2011-09-03 20:17 <ps2chiper> on2 sued them and lost
2011-09-03 20:17 <roh> who cares what happens inside china.
2011-09-03 20:17 <ps2chiper> on2 did
2011-09-03 20:17 <ps2chiper> doesnt wolfgang live in china?
2011-09-03 20:18 <roh> your problem is not inside china. but the eu and the us easily shreddering your hardware on the border.
2011-09-03 20:18 <wpwrak> well, around here, we care a bit more about sustainability. the basic idea is to gain control of the technology you use. that gives you a number of benefits, including the ability to influence how long things stay available, and to make adaptations from the original design.
2011-09-03 20:18 <ps2chiper> i dont care about them either
2011-09-03 20:18 <ps2chiper> i can sell to brazil
2011-09-03 20:18 <wpwrak> roh: FOB shanghai :)
2011-09-03 20:18 <roh> same problem: thats not a market where you can earn money to support the whole development.
2011-09-03 20:18 <ps2chiper> why not
2011-09-03 20:19 <wpwrak> brazil is big. but has very high import taxes and fees.
2011-09-03 20:19 <ps2chiper> if i sold 5000 pcs a month to brazil i would be happy
2011-09-03 20:19 <roh> no money in that markets. you sell basically for your bom prices.
2011-09-03 20:19 <ps2chiper> well i dont think so since we already sell to brazil
2011-09-03 20:19 <ps2chiper> remember i do work for a factory
2011-09-03 20:19 <ps2chiper> www.szlucksky.com
2011-09-03 20:20 <roh> ps2chiper: such markets usually only get targeted by companies who specialize in local things or ones that already squeezed all they can from the european and the us market.
2011-09-03 20:20 <wpwrak> roh: i think he meant pieces, not PCs :)
2011-09-03 20:20 <ps2chiper> the import tax from what i understand depends on the product being imported
2011-09-03 20:21 <ps2chiper> thats how shanzhai works in shenzhen
2011-09-03 20:21 <wpwrak> roh: not at all. but they have to adapt to the local market. usually by doing part of the production locally.
2011-09-03 20:21 <ps2chiper> they just build 5000 pcs of one product and thats it
2011-09-03 20:21 <ps2chiper> and they make plenty of profit for a small company
2011-09-03 20:21 <wpwrak> roh: not quite like in china, though
2011-09-03 20:22 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: correct. different types of products have different taxes. but for electronics, brazil is about 100%.
2011-09-03 20:22 <ps2chiper> how many nanonote were sold to brazil by the way?
2011-09-03 20:22 <ps2chiper> I dont know about that, they sure buy a lot of satellite receivers
2011-09-03 20:23 <wpwrak> dunno. wolfgang may. it's still a bit too early in china for him to be up yet, though
2011-09-03 20:23 <wpwrak> oh yes, brazilians are crazy about tv ...
2011-09-03 20:23 <ps2chiper> hold on, i got a few people from brazill on my msn
2011-09-03 20:23 <ps2chiper> let me ask them
2011-09-03 20:24 <larsc> btw. import taxes on electronics are 60%
2011-09-03 20:24 <ps2chiper> hold on, im asking a importer now
2011-09-03 20:25 <roh> whatever... for me the whole point of foss electronics/open hw is not 'throwing more plastic garbage' into the world but have devices i can reuse, abuse, recycle, repair.
2011-09-03 20:25 <roh> stuff i own, not stuff i use, and then discard because the vendor is long gone an i cannot get the information i need to reuse or repair it.
2011-09-03 20:27 <ps2chiper> thats a pretty hard thing to say to a guy who makes his bread and butter selling things people dont need
2011-09-03 20:27 <roh> ps2chiper: maybe. but wouldnt you feel much better doing devices people have fun using and which do not break?
2011-09-03 20:28 <wpwrak> larsc: maybe .. i got all sorts of numbers. the 100% figure comes from USP. i got slightly lower figures from others, but these often didn't include additional administrative fees.
2011-09-03 20:28 <ps2chiper> not with my wife bashing my head from not making money
2011-09-03 20:28 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: is she chinese ? :)
2011-09-03 20:28 <ps2chiper> she made me promise to buy her a house this year, and right now we have nothing to sell
2011-09-03 20:28 <ps2chiper> yes she is chinese
2011-09-03 20:28 <wpwrak> (-:C
2011-09-03 20:28 <roh> and because i am 'aware' of what i buy, usually atleast, i am ready to pay some more for good devices. hey.. after all i am only using high-end selections of devices anyhow already.
2011-09-03 20:28 <ps2chiper> im trying to find devs to help me out
2011-09-03 20:28 <ps2chiper> but its been a hard year on us
2011-09-03 20:31 <ps2chiper> you know i dont think a ubuntu thin client would sell well. i do think a xbmc dvb stb would sell very well against the dreambox. but finding devs that work on profit sharing is a pain in the ass
2011-09-03 20:31 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: in the copyleft hw business, you need to have patience. we're still building the basics. acquiring skills, upping our BATNA. that's really important. you'd be surprised how quickly some "closed-only" companies come around when they realize that you don't need them.
2011-09-03 20:31 <ps2chiper> you know the psjailbreak
2011-09-03 20:31 <ps2chiper> i was the only guy that made and sold a copy left one
2011-09-03 20:31 <roh> the problem with stb is that the market is really ugly.
2011-09-03 20:32 <ps2chiper> i have 2500 atemga168 left over
2011-09-03 20:32 <roh> lots of people making money from breaking paytv etc.
2011-09-03 20:32 <ps2chiper> thats what we do
2011-09-03 20:32 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-09-03 20:32 <ps2chiper> that was what my openwrt project was about
2011-09-03 20:32 <ps2chiper> i used openwrt to support ssp
2011-09-03 20:32 <ps2chiper> sssp
2011-09-03 20:32 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: i think you want wolfgang should have a beer once. you do things the dirty way. he likes that ;)
2011-09-03 20:32 <ps2chiper> for the satellite receivers, so they can connect them to the internet
2011-09-03 20:33 <ps2chiper> i talked to him a few years ago
2011-09-03 20:33 <roh> heh... well.. from my time inside a company doing stbs i can tell that its really no fun selling such stuff in the end. always comes back to you.
2011-09-03 20:33 <ps2chiper> he hasnt been on skype in ages
2011-09-03 20:33 <ps2chiper> not in china
2011-09-03 20:33 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: people who matter don't social network, skype, and so on :)
2011-09-03 20:33 <ps2chiper> the government shields us from foreigners
2011-09-03 20:33 <ps2chiper> i take that as an insult
2011-09-03 20:34 <roh> he usually is in here at asian daytime
2011-09-03 20:34 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: no, take it as an encouragement :)
2011-09-03 20:34 <roh> maybe 4-6 hours from now *g*
2011-09-03 20:34 <ps2chiper> no, how can you say to to someone whos friends all use gtalk and skype
2011-09-03 20:34 <ps2chiper> that is pretty insulting
2011-09-03 20:34 <ps2chiper> i talk to eric miao from canonical over gtalk
2011-09-03 20:34 <ps2chiper> are you saying he doesnt matter
2011-09-03 20:35 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: maybe he's just weak :)
2011-09-03 20:35 <ps2chiper> i think you should keep those opinions on chat clients to your self
2011-09-03 20:35 <roh>  .oO(using google tools to talk about stuff google also does... hrhr)
2011-09-03 20:36 <roh> see google-tv
2011-09-03 20:36 <ps2chiper> ugghy dont get me started on google tv and boxee
2011-09-03 20:36 <roh> just do not 'trust' google. ever.
2011-09-03 20:36 <ps2chiper> i dont, but we all use it
2011-09-03 20:36 <ps2chiper> its like sugar
2011-09-03 20:36 <ps2chiper> we know its bad for us, but we cant help it
2011-09-03 20:37 <ps2chiper> hey did you guys know mandrian is the most widely spoken language in the world?
2011-09-03 20:37 <roh> .s
2011-09-03 20:37 <roh> irgh
2011-09-03 20:38 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: i'm not surprised :) do you speak it ? your english writing sounds as if you were a native english speaker, that's why i ask
2011-09-03 20:39 <ps2chiper> it should be since i am american. but my mandrian is crap. i have a language block in my brain. but i exceed at political science.
2011-09-03 20:39 <roh> :)
2011-09-03 20:39 <wpwrak> ps2chiper: heh :)
2011-09-03 20:39 <larsc> ps2chiper: what brought you to china?
2011-09-03 20:40 <roh> may i ask whats your position inside that company?
2011-09-03 20:40 <ps2chiper> i used to work in a japanese headlight factory, got tired of it. i wanted a really long vacation off my saving so i thought china was cheap enough. so i moved here.
2011-09-03 20:40 <ps2chiper> right now my position is dog shit since i didnt make any money yet.
2011-09-03 20:41 <ps2chiper> i was supposed to get boxee going in may, but they turned out to be liars about being open
2011-09-03 20:41 <ps2chiper> which actually we did get boxee working on our hardware, but found all the stuff they omitted
2011-09-03 20:42 <roh> hm. dunno boxee.. looks like a lock-in system to me
2011-09-03 20:42 <ps2chiper> when we pressed them on it. they said in reality they had no intention of working with us, unless we could prove we could sell 300k a year of boxee
2011-09-03 20:42 <ps2chiper> boxee is based on xbmc
2011-09-03 20:42 <roh> ah. so its propably atleast a partial gpl-violation in the end?
2011-09-03 20:43 <ps2chiper> oh yeah
2011-09-03 20:43 <roh> good to know ;)
2011-09-03 20:43 <ps2chiper> they actually had some gpl3 software in it the nand read only part
2011-09-03 20:43 <roh> do they sell in germany?
2011-09-03 20:43 <ps2chiper> yes they do
2011-09-03 20:44 <ps2chiper> they have already been reported to gpl violations 
2011-09-03 20:44 <ps2chiper> you know who are big losers. the meego people
2011-09-03 20:44 <roh> its toast (meego)
2011-09-03 20:45 <ps2chiper> i was on there irc channel and i told them if they wanted anyone to build hardware for them. i would try.
2011-09-03 20:45 <roh> hm. seems like boxee isnt pushed in .de due to netflix etc not being available here
2011-09-03 20:45 <ps2chiper> they gave me a list of all the hacked meego devices and told me i sold pay for there service since i was not needed
2011-09-03 20:45 <ps2chiper> not pushed but sold
2011-09-03 20:46 <ps2chiper> i told them the reason why meego flopped was because the devs didnt make a effort to push hardware on the market
2011-09-03 20:46 <ps2chiper> then they banned me
2011-09-03 20:47 <ps2chiper> I wish i could get this guy to work for our factory, stephan@openelec.tv
2011-09-03 20:47 <ps2chiper> he has made a lot of progress with xbmc
2011-09-03 20:48 <roh> ps2chiper: sure boxee was reported to gpl-violations? cannot find the ticket
2011-09-03 20:48 <qi-bot> The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-09032011-0158/
2011-09-03 20:48 <ps2chiper> well im friends with luke from gpl violations, and he knows about it. also the openboxee guy made a huge fuss on it
2011-09-03 20:49 <roh> i dont know any luke? maybe it was the fsf in the us or europe?
2011-09-03 20:51 <ps2chiper> lklc
2011-09-03 20:51 <roh> ps2chiper: anyhow.. if you got any more details there.. can you please mail it to mailto:license-violation@gpl-violations.org and add any details you have (name parts missing etc)
2011-09-03 20:52 <ps2chiper> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fyro.slashdot.org%2Farticle.pl%3Fsid%3D11%2F04%2F18%2F1342214&rct=j&q=boxee%20gpl%20violation&ei=eZNiTrW0EYOuiAfD5MCxCg&usg=AFQjCNF7cTt3_Exzg_KiykvBfZbOhlPS-w&cad=rja
2011-09-03 20:52 <ps2chiper> infinityoverzero.com/bbox/ 
2011-09-03 20:55 <ps2chiper> so there has already been a fuss over it
2011-09-03 20:55 <ps2chiper> but i cant use their software and call it boxee
2011-09-03 20:55 <ps2chiper> so i wont waist my time any more on it