2011-09-01 00:32 [commit] Werner Almesberger: mkmk-simple: exit with an error code if "cameo" fails (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/54101ea 2011-09-01 00:32 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: added option "any" to "mill", to accept paths irrespective of tool size (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/75c3a7d 2011-09-01 00:32 [commit] Werner Almesberger: mkmk-simple: added variable ANY (usage: ANY=any) to set "mill any" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/afa7460 2011-09-01 01:20 EvanÂ Â Prodromou of status.net and identi.ca has a new blog about open source companies. http://ope.nu/p/40 The nine revenue streams for Open Source companies 2011-09-01 01:22 kyak: how many programs are affected by the api change? 2011-09-01 03:08 wolfspraul: monthly news this month ? activity is picking up again - mailing list traffic in august was at 200% of july 2011-09-01 03:09 yes but at the very least I need a few days now to focus only on the m1 launch 2011-09-01 03:09 I have to get this thing out, people are waiting... 2011-09-01 03:09 And rejon keeps me busy too 2011-09-01 03:10 ha 2011-09-01 03:10 yah right 2011-09-01 03:10 teaching you about culture 2011-09-01 03:10 your own german culture 2011-09-01 03:11 wolfspraul: how soon will be the M1 launch ? if it's ~1 week or more from now, a bit of a teaser in the weekly news could also be good :) 2011-09-01 03:11 rejon: wow ;-) 2011-09-01 03:11 m1 launch party? :-) 2011-09-01 03:15 yes 2011-09-01 03:15 i think we will take a nice soft launch 2011-09-01 03:16 and i have a plan for growing this and our dev community 2011-09-01 03:16 we need more people adding features to m1 2011-09-01 03:16 looks to me like development has stopped by the main developers at present 2011-09-01 03:16 from the commit logs 2011-09-01 03:16 don't forget the summer holiday effect ... 2011-09-01 03:16 holidayS even 2011-09-01 03:17 and of course, sebastien now has paid-for work on the side to distract him 2011-09-01 03:18 hum. i think sebastien is working on increasing rendering resolution too 2011-09-01 03:18 cool 2011-09-01 03:19 kristianpaul, what are you hacking on? 2011-09-01 03:19 dont you know? 2011-09-01 03:19 kristianpaul: if i understand the situation correctly, he made a few changes that should help with this, but then found that it wasn't enough, the next step would be a big one (speed up the memory subsystem), and he hasn't worked up enough fury yet to attack this issue 2011-09-01 03:19 yes wpwrak 2011-09-01 03:19 rejon: gps baseband 2011-09-01 03:19 very cool 2011-09-01 03:22 wow: Estimated project cost: $11,719,963Â Â <--https://www.ohloh.net/p/nanonote-firmware 2011-09-01 03:23 Estimated project cost: $424,833 <-- https://www.ohloh.net/p/milkymist 2011-09-01 03:24 we should charge that to the Linux Foundation. Isn't that how it works? 2011-09-01 03:24 can you cost ben wpan too? 2011-09-01 03:24 (charge) lol 2011-09-01 03:28 rejon: yes I think the ability to mix in static images would be cool 2011-09-01 03:28 if high-res is too hard, maybe that's lower hanging fruit 2011-09-01 03:29 unfortunately the most natural way to feed it static images would be a usb stick, but that's also hard to implement 2011-09-01 03:30 wolfspraul, ideally 2011-09-01 03:30 yes, a folder of images 2011-09-01 03:30 point m1 to a folder of images 2011-09-01 03:30 and they can mix into the patches 2011-09-01 03:31 some advertising copmanies interested in autogeneration of ads in public spaces 2011-09-01 03:31 in china there are so many 2011-09-01 03:31 feel unware about flicernoise rendering internals.. 2011-09-01 03:31 unaware* 2011-09-01 03:32 like I said this requires 2 todo items: ability to mix in images in the ic design & flickernoise, and then best support for usb-storage to feed them in 2011-09-01 03:32 usb-storage?... 2011-09-01 03:32 both are non-trivial, difficult to implement. not sure who is up to the task. 2011-09-01 03:32 kristianpaul: how would the user feed images into the box? 2011-09-01 03:32 people would want to copy them to a usb stick and plug it into m1 2011-09-01 03:32 using the internet? 2011-09-01 03:33 ah true, that's a good workaround until we have usb-storage support 2011-09-01 03:33 just point it to a url 2011-09-01 03:38 kristianpaul: so for still images, first level of support would be download from URL only 2011-09-01 03:38 oh, another problem 2011-09-01 03:39 space in the nor flash is limited, just a few megabytes 2011-09-01 03:39 so if there should be a way to cache the images, that may not be enough 2011-09-01 03:39 the 2 GB memory card is present in every rc3 we ship, but more tough software work is needed to make it work 2011-09-01 03:40 wolfspraul, can you and wpwrak fight about openwrt vs please? 2011-09-01 03:40 huh? 2011-09-01 03:40 "fight about openwrt vs" 2011-09-01 03:40 please? 2011-09-01 03:40 so I think for a really effective implementation of static images a lot is missing right now 2011-09-01 03:40 using the 2 gb card as storage 2011-09-01 03:41 implementing support for still images in the ic design and flickernoise 2011-09-01 03:41 openembedded 2011-09-01 03:41 adding support for downloading images from a url, probably download and cache them locally 2011-09-01 03:41 adding support for plugging in usb sticks 2011-09-01 03:42 Linux :-) 2011-09-01 03:42 all of this together is several man years of work :-) 2011-09-01 03:42 rejon: what do you want to know about openwrt & oe ? 2011-09-01 03:42 for my current purposes openwrt is better suited, I like it better 2011-09-01 03:42 smaller 2011-09-01 03:43 that's why we were able to make an openwrt useland for m1 2011-09-01 03:43 try that with oe - super hard I'd say. anybody feel free to proove me wrong. 2011-09-01 03:43 no thank you ;) 2011-09-01 03:43 I'm super practical about build systems. I want them to work quickly, be small and lean. 2011-09-01 03:43 many people use customized buildroots 2011-09-01 03:44 also fine. but openwrt has just the right level of 'platform architecture' and easy scripting / easy ways to customize 2011-09-01 03:44 (other crazy workaround) use build-in camera to take pics can be re-used on a patch 2011-09-01 03:44 rejon: naw, i don't want to fight about openwrt vs. oe :) i think owrt has developed into a resource drain to the nanonote community that could have been avoided by picking a more feature-rich distribution. be it OE or whatever. 2011-09-01 03:44 I think openwrt is best for small systems, just a little bit more than a plain buildroot 2011-09-01 03:44 s/build-in/box-included 2011-09-01 03:45 wpwrak: it's amazing that this didn't happen then :-) 2011-09-01 03:45 seems the people that are actually working with distros come to a different conclusion about workload, getting the same thing done in A vs B 2011-09-01 03:46 so openwrt for embedded systems - fine by me 2011-09-01 03:46 that's why we have an m1 userland today, even if it's hacked together 2011-09-01 03:47 wolfspraul: i'm not saying openwrt is a bad start. it's lean, simple, understandable. just what you want to get rolling. 2011-09-01 03:47 after that I would probably look at build tools like koji, if I have a system with more than 512 mb ram or so 2011-09-01 03:47 wolfspraul: but as the feature set increases, you get more and more into fighting the limitations of the distribution. 2011-09-01 03:47 I don't see that. A lot less than OE in my experience. 2011-09-01 03:48 openwrt is simple, makefile based 2011-09-01 03:48 you should like that ;-) 2011-09-01 03:48 He want more libs ;) 2011-09-01 03:48 oe is using bitbake - overengineered imho 2011-09-01 03:48 so far, most of the work that went into openwrt was just adding things that most other distros already have 2011-09-01 03:49 you should just work with bitbake for a while :-) 2011-09-01 03:49 am I wrong saying that you never actually used it? 2011-09-01 03:49 i've used it in the early days of openmoko :) 2011-09-01 03:49 for how long? and then you were smart enough to 'outsource' this to others, no? :-) 2011-09-01 03:49 and then i decided that the only sane way of living in a place with OE was to __OUTSOURCE__ anything that had anything to do with the distro 2011-09-01 03:50 :-) 2011-09-01 03:50 voila, and i lived happily ever after ;-) 2011-09-01 03:50 rafa around? :) 2011-09-01 03:50 openwrt is good to start, we agree 2011-09-01 03:50 so we see it again for the m1 userland now 2011-09-01 03:50 kristianpaul: he has just been feeding rms :) 2011-09-01 03:50 for systems larger than 512mb or so, several gigabytes of storage, I'd try koji 2011-09-01 03:50 I mean 512mb memory 2011-09-01 03:51 for smaller embedded systems, also those we build in the future, I'd still go with openwrt 2011-09-01 03:51 if it's so small that it cannot even run the Linux kernel, probably even openwrt is overkill, and you'd just have some manually written makefiles or buildroot 2011-09-01 03:52 wolfspraul: i would still look for the outsourcing approach. see if any other distros already support LM32. if not, see if there's a happy maintainer community we can recruit for our purposes :) 2011-09-01 03:52 lm32 dunno.. well rtems for now 2011-09-01 03:53 sure no way. we have to do it ourselves or nobody will. 2011-09-01 03:53 e.g., i would have loved to have closer ties between qi-hw and jlime. that would have given us OE on a silver plate 2011-09-01 03:53 just look at the mess with gcc, llvm, dynamic linking, mmu, and so on 2011-09-01 03:54 kristofer from jlime seems interested in getting a M1 i remenber 2011-09-01 03:54 yes, i think M1 needs some infrastructure work first. but that applies to any distro. 2011-09-01 03:54 how active are oe and openwrt nowadays 2011-09-01 03:55 i don't keep track of them. for me, they just are :) oe should be big. so much depends on it nowadays. 2011-09-01 03:55 like what? 2011-09-01 03:56 why no body comment about Qt ? :) 2011-09-01 03:56 ah, but no c++ suport with gcc-lm32... 2011-09-01 03:57 there is too much work missing, really 2011-09-01 03:57 instead of pointless debating I'd rather move some tech snippets forward, no matter how small 2011-09-01 03:58 i see the biggest problem of M1 sw support currently still in the very basics. the core system infrastructure. begins with the MMU, then toolchain, etc. 2011-09-01 03:58 m1 is a great start now and works as a video synthesizer, but as rejon said we need to find more core devs to take on hard problems 2011-09-01 03:58 wpwrak: yes fully agree 2011-09-01 03:59 once it looks like a regular linux system, many things get a lot easier 2011-09-01 03:59 then your main enemies come from the autocrap family, making more or less subtly wrong assumptions about your system 2011-09-01 04:00 yeah, but flicernoise still flickernoise.. how many people understand that code right now to add features as they wish?.. 2011-09-01 04:01 well, how much of FN is really essential for what M1 does ? all the desktop etc. could be done in a few days with pretty much any halfway decent toolkit 2011-09-01 04:01 mtk yeah could be replaced.. 2011-09-01 04:01 indeed 2011-09-01 04:01 just redering engine i guess 2011-09-01 04:02 wich there is a hello world imho, published by lekernel recently http://lekernel.net/presentations/masteri2l/tp/mmtp_i2l.pdf 2011-09-01 04:02 may be rejon can take a look at it and tell others? 2011-09-01 04:03 but rendering is mostly sebastien master tehsis if i recall well 2011-09-01 04:03 may be no lib? 2011-09-01 04:03 dam i hate when i dont understand something well... 2011-09-01 04:04 kristianpaul: nice document 2011-09-01 04:04 yeah, sebastien very kind making us now about it :) 2011-09-01 04:04 s/now/know 2011-09-01 04:06 so recalling initial talk, using internet may be a workround _if_ there is always internet acess by ethernet near to M1 2011-09-01 04:07 or, the another idea about using video camera included on the box.. but with no decent zoom/macro i dont see it very confortable.. 2011-09-01 04:07 nah 2011-09-01 04:08 for loading images ? 2011-09-01 04:09 you'll get full USB nearly "for free" with linux. at least the upper layer drivers. of course, as i understand it, the current USB host is only low-speed. so this would need upgrading to at least full-speed. 2011-09-01 04:10 no for freee 2011-09-01 04:11 from my understanding the current usb host implementation in the navre core is just hacked together to barely work with keyboard and mice 2011-09-01 04:11 OHCI is not complete in mm1 soc i remenber 2011-09-01 04:11 I think it will require substantial more work even if Linux ran on top of it 2011-09-01 04:11 yes, wolfspraul 2011-09-01 04:11 "for free" in the sense that, once you have USB working at all (host controller driver, etc.), you can talk to all the crazy little devices linux supports 2011-09-01 04:11 oh sure :) 2011-09-01 04:12 (hack) yeah, that's also my understanding 2011-09-01 04:12 kristianpaul: loading pictures over Ethernet, even if cached locally, is just a workaround, but at least it would be a start 2011-09-01 04:12 i think that for free would aply for memcard code at least 2011-09-01 04:12 of course a normal user would expect to be able to plug a usb stick into the box and it should 'just work' 2011-09-01 04:12 who dont those days :) 2011-09-01 04:12 but even for the caching we would need to get the memcard to work, write support, etc. 2011-09-01 04:12 erghh, plug ? 2011-09-01 04:12 no more free ports ! 2011-09-01 04:13 so adding usb-storage support may almost be less work :-) Compared to download, caching, memory card write support, etc. 2011-09-01 04:13 :) 2011-09-01 04:14 somehow I'm hoping we can sell 50% of m1 to developers 2011-09-01 04:15 DocScrutinizer: http://oz9aec.net/index.php/gnu-radio/gnu-radio-blog/451-howto-receive-and-decode-noaa-apt-images-with-the-funcube-dongle-and-gqrx see what you can with satellites and 125 eur 2011-09-01 04:15 that would be perfect. 50% developers, 50% users 2011-09-01 04:15 I mean for rc3 2011-09-01 04:16 how you plan call developer atention? 2011-09-01 04:16 no plan yet 2011-09-01 04:17 Jon was planning to imprison them somewhere and then just force m1 upon them. 2011-09-01 04:17 lol 2011-09-01 04:17 he is hoping to pick up some currently unemployed talent in Libya 2011-09-01 04:18 s/pick/employ ? :-) 2011-09-01 04:18 yah, they will work for cheap wolfspraul 2011-09-01 04:19 DocScrutinizer: 125eur TV-like dongle :) 2011-09-01 04:20 I think one way to get developer attention is to go out with a really big vision of where milkymist could go 2011-09-01 04:21 with every little bit that we lower barriers of entry, improve the tools, some really spectactular new products will be possible in the future 2011-09-01 04:21 but that needs to come across. what products? how long will it take? how many people have to join to speed it up? etc. 2011-09-01 04:21 and unfortunately there is nothing really to catch up to 2011-09-01 04:23 I like Sebastien's idea of an autonomous flying object that can cover long distances, recharge batteries and look for resting spots on its own 2011-09-01 04:23 such a fun idea and vision, I'm thinking how I can make a little animation of it :-) 2011-09-01 04:24 that thing needs an eye and/or radar to fly by vision, identify suitable resting places, etc. 2011-09-01 04:24 we could probably come up with 10 or more examples of what type of products Milkymist could lead to 2011-09-01 04:25 in communication/radio, computer vision, medical appliances, and so on 2011-09-01 04:25 audio/video equipment, embedded systems, robotics 2011-09-01 04:30 wolfspraul, bradphillips from fabricatorz can make this animation 2011-09-01 04:31 wolfspraul, thus is born the 2030 initiative 2011-09-01 04:31 architecturally, milkymist is in a great position to make use of new chips, new hardware advances, as they come up 2011-09-01 04:32 here is what i want: 2011-09-01 04:32 I do believe that is true and we should talk more about it. 2011-09-01 04:32 1.) be able to give presentation from ben nanonote with ubb-vga and gpdf 2011-09-01 04:32 2.) give presentation from milkymist1 2011-09-01 04:32 in same fashion 2011-09-01 04:32 3.) feed in a folder of images on m1 and be able to sell this to advertising companies 2011-09-01 04:32 any interesting new chip that comes out, a real hardware innovation, you have a hard time hooking it up to an unmodifiable SoC 2011-09-01 04:33 but with Milkymist it's possible to hook it up faster, and come out with a product using that new chip first 2011-09-01 04:33 4.) HTML5+js+css runner build of openwrt for constrained systems, that can be installed on BNN and M1 2011-09-01 04:33 hopefully we see some opportunities and execution of that in coming years 2011-09-01 04:33 if I'm wrong - please correct me 2011-09-01 04:33 those 4 things i want and i see as low hanging fruit 2011-09-01 04:33 as in, they are possible 2011-09-01 04:33 and possible to put on point 2011-09-01 04:33 yes, i know 2, 3 and 4 are all resource dependent upon 1-2 people with knowledge 2011-09-01 04:34 not impossible, but would be amazing 2011-09-01 04:34 the way lekernel added twitter support is awesome 2011-09-01 04:34 yes 2011-09-01 04:34 the combination of feed support + images + m1 is an advertisers dream come true 2011-09-01 04:34 automatic commercials 2011-09-01 04:34 we need to ask him for the lowest hanging fruits from his perspective. he knows best, I'm just learning, so are others (kristianpaul) 2011-09-01 04:34 maybe people outside of asia don't see this 2011-09-01 04:34 there are screens everywhere! 2011-09-01 04:35 flatscreens, LED screens, screens on the headrests of taxi site passenger seats, and just empty TVs at peoples home 2011-09-01 04:35 all waiting for an m1 to be plugged in 2011-09-01 04:35 another thing the m1 can be is a set top box 2011-09-01 04:35 there are loads of people installing mythTV 2011-09-01 04:35 or other solutions 2011-09-01 04:35 (screens) hopefully not here ;) 2011-09-01 04:35 n8 2011-09-01 04:35 m1 could be playing all these media files 2011-09-01 04:35 so many things possible 2011-09-01 04:36 I just have this thought you saying "empty tvs at peoples homes" = "unused ad space" :-) 2011-09-01 04:37 yes 2011-09-01 04:37 absolutely 2011-09-01 04:37 in the elevators and in the lobbies of housing complexes here in china, all have tv ads 2011-09-01 04:37 the ad companies give a cut to the homeowners 2011-09-01 04:37 wolfspraul: yes, learn learn :-) video synthesis with milkymist !:) 2011-09-01 04:37 sure 2011-09-01 04:37 1) for #slides == 1, that's already possible ;-) what i really need to do, though, is build the "productized" ubb-vga 2011-09-01 04:38 lekernel: http://milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Interactive_visuals_workshop_with_Milkymist_One_and_Arduino planning to do soemthing about adding video syntheis features? 2011-09-01 04:38 i'm a bit disappointed that exactly 0 people have build an ubb-vga :-( 2011-09-01 04:38 hides 2011-09-01 04:39 I'm not surprised. the scene we are in, and the way we communicate, is about someone hacking something for themselves, and then showing off 2011-09-01 04:39 nobody wants to rebuild what someone else did 2011-09-01 04:39 hero stuckness essentially :-) 2011-09-01 04:39 everybody wants to be a hero, everybody wants to show off what great thing THEY built 2011-09-01 04:39 kristianpaul: you'd be amazed how good it looks. when i tried it at FISL, i got it to display flawlessly at 1024x768 on pretty much the first try on two screens (well, one screen at a booth, and on rejon's projector) 2011-09-01 04:40 kristianpaul: the image looked much better than on my old monitor at home :) 2011-09-01 04:40 we need to break out of that hero stuckness, and rejon is working on it with sharism etc. 2011-09-01 04:41 hmm, dunno if that hero fixation is a cause or a consequence 2011-09-01 04:41 I like rebuild just i justÂ Â havent tought abother ubb-vga aplication besides slides, wich is not my main concern right now 2011-09-01 04:41 so far we know that we have the technology under control, or rather which part we have under control and which part not. That's a good starting point. 2011-09-01 04:41 but i have a talk in two months so :-) 2011-09-01 04:42 wpwrak, i might build a cable, wolfspraul made me buy a ubb-vga off him so i could use it to make a calbe 2011-09-01 04:42 is that software in the default BNN image? 2011-09-01 04:42 yes rejon bought a UBB from me, but he did a lot of price haggling 2011-09-01 04:43 wolfspraul: how many beers did he have to pay in the end ? :) 2011-09-01 04:43 no 2011-09-01 04:43 cash + beer 2011-09-01 04:43 i think i bought him beer actually 2011-09-01 04:43 + taxi 2011-09-01 04:43 of course, my time is not valuable to wolfspraul 2011-09-01 04:43 rejon: (default image) naw, it's way too experimental for that 2011-09-01 04:43 I'm listening. rejon - I will send the 'dudeloop' licensing fees to you from now on, whenever I use it. 2011-09-01 04:43 rejon: the high art of manipulation :) 2011-09-01 04:44 yah, if i believed in licensing i'd be rich 2011-09-01 04:46 (ubb-vga) it should compile nicely if you have even only the minimum toolchain set up, though. no fancy libraries required. 2011-09-01 04:46 (or i can just make a binary) 2011-09-01 04:47 the image need specia preparation? 2011-09-01 04:47 lunch time, taking my notebook so I can work WHILE I'M EATING and make up the time I need for rejon tonight 2011-09-01 04:47 how's that? 2011-09-01 04:47 haha 2011-09-01 04:47 thas you and rejon now ;) 2011-09-01 04:47 wolfspraul: you leave the office for eating ?!? 2011-09-01 04:47 i have a maid sorry 2011-09-01 04:47 wolfspraul, 2011-09-01 04:47 wolfspraul: next thing you'll tell us that you sleep elsewhere, too 2011-09-01 04:47 she feeds me 2011-09-01 04:48 while i wwork 2011-09-01 04:48 wpwrak: same i asked my self soe seconds ago ;) 2011-09-01 04:48 ok, i will push on those 4 things i want from the milkyqiverse 2011-09-01 04:48 a-qi-vers 2011-09-01 04:48 working now while you guys all talk all day 2011-09-01 04:49 kristianpaul: we are a-qi-vers! 2011-09-01 04:49 we should rename qi-hardware #dudeloop 2011-09-01 04:49 lunch, work, l8 2011-09-01 04:49 (ubb-vga, images) right now, i can load PBM of exactly the same resolution the screen has 2011-09-01 04:49 rejon: what's dudeloop ? 2011-09-01 04:50 a loop of dudes 2011-09-01 04:50 a circle of dudes 2011-09-01 04:50 it must be broken 2011-09-01 04:50 hum so not hard to make a slide 2011-09-01 04:50 slideS 2011-09-01 04:50 its a blackhole of dudeliness 2011-09-01 04:50 broken with girls 2011-09-01 04:50 only 2011-09-01 04:50 linux conferences are mostly dudeloops 2011-09-01 04:50 aah ! good idea :) 2011-09-01 04:52 yeah, and try to pick up one of those few girls you find at the conferences :) 2011-09-01 04:53 well you know a movement is over when no girls are there 2011-09-01 04:54 or maybe it's still starting :) 2011-09-01 05:00 oh i can write my own libc, interesting :-) 2011-09-01 05:01 i hear the alarm bells ring at glibc headquarters :) 2011-09-01 05:02 kinda like then linus discovered he could write his own distributed revision control system. shortly thereafter, the wind of time blew over the scorched ruins of bitkepper ... 2011-09-01 05:03 of course, he has a history of destroying lesser projects. e.g., coherent unix never knew what hit them when linux came out ... 2011-09-01 05:10 take a look to lekernel thesis and datasheets again 2011-09-01 06:39 [commit] Werner Almesberger: gp2rml/: copied over from svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/cncmap/gp2rml (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/fbbe451 2011-09-01 06:39 [commit] Werner Almesberger: mkmk-simple: changed path to gp2rml from ...openmoko... to ...qi/cae-tools... (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/50918a2 2011-09-01 07:24 grmbl. didn't set the board thickness. no surprise it didn't cut through the 1.6 mm board using the 0.8 mm default ... 2011-09-01 07:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: rotate P5 (opto out) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/8ece4f4 2011-09-01 07:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: changed spacers to have a 4 mm hole, with 0.2 mm of slack (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a336e1d 2011-09-01 07:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/cam/Makefile: improved indentation; added BOARD_Z and ANY (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/0d6568c 2011-09-01 07:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: reduced depth of "bays" for columns from 11 mm to 10.4 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/ffaef3b 2011-09-01 07:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: reduced width of "bays" for columns from 8.4 mm to 8 mm (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/02f7bd9 2011-09-01 07:52 [commit] Jiri Brozovsky: Console viewer for Git repositories (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9745415 2011-09-01 08:03 The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08312011-2007/ 2011-09-01 08:06 *hmm* seems that the moment of truth has come. the moment i have to settle for a 2D CAD that actually is a CAD (and not just a perl, python, etc. script) 2011-09-01 08:06 goes on teaching fped a few more tricks 2011-09-01 08:16 lekernel: nice sat pics 2011-09-01 08:20 the method is known for long, but the dongle is really rather low-priced compared to what you had to pay in the 1980s 2011-09-01 08:22 IIRC back then they reworked fax machines to do the decoding 2011-09-01 09:58 implementing support for still images in the ic design? wtf? 2011-09-01 09:58 this is only a software task 2011-09-01 09:58 pictures can be uploaded with FTP 2011-09-01 10:00 rejon, commits aren't the only thing that matters in a project, popularity/publicity (or the lack thereof) are important as well 2011-09-01 10:01 lekernel, FTP is not good for normal people 2011-09-01 10:01 lekernel, sure we can send out loads of publicity 2011-09-01 10:01 but writers will write want they want 2011-09-01 10:02 not as important as quality connections and time spent with actual people 2011-09-01 10:02 experience 2011-09-01 10:02 oops, sorry, I got that wrong with 'ic design'. need to study the sources more carefully. 2011-09-01 10:02 and 99% of the codebase of milkymist is totally unknown to most people here, so have a look at the existing stuff before asking for more 2011-09-01 10:06 lekernel, we should get that 99% changed 2011-09-01 10:06 so more people can participate 2011-09-01 10:06 that would be really great for the health of the project 2011-09-01 10:07 got a hit on the betahaus event lekernel 2011-09-01 10:07 emailing you now 2011-09-01 10:08 lekernel, were you talking to anyone at betahaus about that event? 2011-09-01 10:09 yes 2011-09-01 10:10 who? 2011-09-01 10:11 Madeleine and Eva 2011-09-01 10:11 the next step is to write the workshop description 2011-09-01 10:12 (and have M1s ready for sale) 2011-09-01 10:14 sure, that is super close on the sale side 2011-09-01 10:14 sure lekernel 2011-09-01 10:18 ok cool 2011-09-01 10:18 madeleine is cofounder of betahaus and eva is intern 2011-09-01 10:18 just checking, my friend jay is organizing the makerplatz during that 2011-09-01 10:18 seeing how connects before final push out 2011-09-01 10:18 also want to tie in with sharism plan 2011-09-01 10:19 ok emailed 2011-09-01 10:20 lekernel, i have three quetsions 2011-09-01 10:20 1.) how will your CERN work tie into the m1 2011-09-01 10:20 how does it, so when talking with people we have an idea 2011-09-01 10:20 2.) how can SVGA/720p get onto m1 soon, and/or how much work will this take because people already asking for it constantly 2011-09-01 10:20 3.) how to get images simply into m1 so they can be mixed with 2011-09-01 10:24 lekernel, you work at CERN? 2011-09-01 10:26 wprak: I'm still interested to build a copy of your ubb-vga (even got a buchn of ubbs for that). But by experience is limited and it looks like too compicated for start :-( 2011-09-01 10:32 we doing an makerlab next week in shanghai... 2011-09-01 10:32 http://xinchejian.com/event/?regevent_action=register&event_id=49&name_of_event=FPGAWorkshop 2011-09-01 10:33 ooh too bad, they doing an fpga workshop soon after 2011-09-01 10:50 #3 is relatively easy, just use libpng/libjpeg to decode the images, and inject into the renderer loop. the only delicate point is how you configure the images from the patches. 2011-09-01 10:51 #2 is technically difficult and will probably require doubling SDRAM frequency, which I do not feel motivated to do while the units are not being sold and the project remains so unpopular 2011-09-01 10:53 #1 it's not related other than being other open source electronics stuff and bringing new opportunities to meet people who are not afraid of advanced tech like FPGAs, contrary - i'm sorry to say - to most hackers 2011-09-01 11:00 in case you are worried about my commitment to making M1 successful, it's consulting, not employment. I'm totally free to continue working on M1. 2011-09-01 11:10 lekernel: naw, i don't think people are really afraid. most just don't have an itch that they think an FPGA will scratch. at the end of the day, that's what really motivates people. 2011-09-01 11:11 so, in that case, I can say they lack the motivation to scratch the itch of understanding the vast field of FPGA-related technologies 2011-09-01 11:11 which is equivalent 2011-09-01 11:11 lekernel: a few "getting started" examples (blink the LEDs, whatever) should allow people to get rolling. of course, if they could use use a free toolchain instead of the proprietary xilinx tools, that may make the whole thing more attractive. at least for people coming from the free software corner. 2011-09-01 11:12 wpwrak: there is a blink led example in llhdl btw .) 2011-09-01 11:12 kristianpaul: i would have been a bit disappointed if there hadn't been one ;-) 2011-09-01 11:12 lol 2011-09-01 11:13 haha indeed, and it even works 2011-09-01 11:14 lekernel: but you don't ask people to be driven by the prospect of mastering a complex and obscure technology. it's just normal that you'll have to wait fairly long for your first followers with this approach. 2011-09-01 11:14 you have to sneak in the FPGA world a little more subtly :) 2011-09-01 11:16 like "oh, this would be really easy to do with an FPGA". like this [high-level picture of the concept]. here's roughly what the code would look like." 2011-09-01 11:16 have some ideas about what _you_ want to do in a FPGA? 2011-09-01 11:17 that way, you've 1) connected it to the problem they're trying to solve, leveraging their willpower to tackle that problem. 2) you explained what can be done in terms they can readily understand without even learning anything about the arcane magic of FPGAs. 3) shown them that it's something that mere mortals (like them) can actually understand within a reasonable amount of time. 2011-09-01 11:18 3) is important, because many people shy away from the unknown. even if they would have no trouble with it. 2011-09-01 11:19 e.g., i wrote my first compiler only after i read an article series in a computer magazine about how to write a simple compiler. that gave me a starting point. 2011-09-01 11:20 kristianpaul: me ? my scholarly interest is in enhancing computation. basically make the compiler figure out what hardware feature/structure could solve a particular part of the computation the program requires, then synthesize it ad hoc. 2011-09-01 11:22 yummy :) 2011-09-01 11:22 kristianpaul: that's of course quite basic research with a very long time horizon. maybe ~5 years before it's actually useful for more than isolated demo cases. perhaps a whole decade before it's something you'd want to consider a tool like lex or yacc. 2011-09-01 11:22 and maybe one more decade before your compiler just does it without you even noticing :) 2011-09-01 11:24 gotta go read you later 2011-09-01 11:24 over such a time span, technology will also change. fpga in ten years will be different from fpgas today. not just bigger and faster. so it's not only a question of developing a branch of science that works with today's zoo of FPGAs, but also to extract more fundamental structural elements, patterns, and trends, and to extrapolate from these. 2011-09-01 11:30 wpwrak: well.. if you think.. when i compare 10 years ago with now, not much changed. especially the tools seem to have stood still. 2011-09-01 11:30 so.. i am optimistic about a lot of things, but not any progess there. 2011-09-01 11:31 roh: oh yes, development is super-slow at the moment. there's no synergy. and all the interesting bits and pieces are kept a secret. but when you start breaking down the walls, the critters who like to dwell in obscurity will get restless :) 2011-09-01 11:32 roh: also, what you do see is the addition of more/larger fixed-function blocks. 2011-09-01 11:32 heh.. well.. the latter is quite boring 2011-09-01 11:33 i'd like to see some work on cpu/fpga combo chips.. they atleast have a serious chance to perform before becoming a asic 2011-09-01 11:33 it's something you have to consider. how to incorporate them into your model of the device and how to use them efficiently. 2011-09-01 11:33 yes, cpu+fpga combos are another dimension 2011-09-01 11:34 wpwrak: e.g. some 800mhz or more arm with a fpga to develop the soc around it. 2011-09-01 11:34 but wasting my time with more <400mhz devices is out of the question for me. 2011-09-01 11:35 alteast nowadays.. was different 5 years ago, but one has to be realistic 2011-09-01 11:37 another fact that show how much hackers suck at computer architecture is their strong belief in the MHz myth 2011-09-01 11:37 lekernel: ;-)))) 2011-09-01 11:39 clock frequency is one performance factor among tens of thousands 2011-09-01 11:40 and one where you have the fewest possibilities to improve things. well, unless you happen to have a fab in your backyard and enjoy some pretty hardcore fundamental research :) 2011-09-01 11:41 even after years the super-conservative (real mode etc.) Intel has started making multicore chips, they still don't get it 2011-09-01 11:41 roh: let the dinosaurs have the MHz. let us quick and smart mammals have parallelism :) 2011-09-01 11:42 lekernel: well multicore is at least one timid step in the right direction :) 2011-09-01 11:50 jiri_brozovsky: (ubb-vga) great ! and don't worry about the complexity ! it's not all that hard. it looks much weirder than it really is :) 2011-09-01 12:16