2011-08-26 00:41 <qi-bot> The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08242011-2111/
2011-08-26 00:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: nanonote-files copy file to etc (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/6b67573
2011-08-26 00:48 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: nanonote-files bump version number (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/0e59c0f
2011-08-26 03:08 <wpwrak> today, i got a shipment from digi-key, containing three little lithium button cells. the warning labels on the box made it look as if it contained a nuclear warhead ;-)
2011-08-26 03:28 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: what you need lithium button cells ?
2011-08-26 03:28 <kristianpaul> self powered atben? :-)
2011-08-26 03:29 <kristianpaul> s/what/why
2011-08-26 03:29 <kristianpaul> damn psu
2011-08-26 03:29 <wpwrak> naw, for powering the atben, i'd just feed back the regulator output into the input :)
2011-08-26 03:30 <wpwrak> it's to experiment with chargeable lithion cells. i basically want to prove they're not good at delivering the kind of power i want.
2011-08-26 03:31 <kristianpaul> if somebody here get are involved on making a laptop like thing with rechargable batteries, PLEASE avoid tampered PSUs...
2011-08-26 03:31 <wpwrak> (relatively high current, pulsed, but with fairly wide tolerance on the voltage. so the primary li cells are okay, but i have my doubts about the secondary ones)
2011-08-26 03:31 <kristianpaul> chargeable, sound nice :)
2011-08-26 03:31 <wpwrak> what's a "tampered" psu ?
2011-08-26 03:31 <kristianpaul> he :p
2011-08-26 03:32 <kristianpaul> i have a mips laptop, the psu is kinda small and easilly breaks when you try open it..
2011-08-26 03:32 <kristianpaul> so is no tampered.. sorry
2011-08-26 03:33 <kristianpaul> and dont loose easy.. argh
2011-08-26 03:33 <kristianpaul> i just need to change the broken power cable..
2011-08-26 03:33 <kristianpaul> oh wel..
2011-08-26 03:34 <kristianpaul> if the thing will break why they just dont make it swichable, like the connector for the main..
2011-08-26 03:38 <kristianpaul> looks for his coping saw
2011-08-26 03:59 <kristianpaul> finally surender, the winner a scalpel :)
2011-08-26 04:00 <kristianpaul> may be i'm not used right term, but this psu box was not actually glued
2011-08-26 04:00 <kristianpaul> sealed it looks like..
2011-08-26 04:01 <kristianpaul> but the scalpel make trought :)
2011-08-26 04:01 <wpwrak> saves a few picocents. make a hundred million units and we're talking about real money ;-)
2011-08-26 04:08 <kristianpaul> sorry i lost the track..
2011-08-26 04:09 <kristianpaul> was that about the cells?
2011-08-26 04:09 <wpwrak> naw, your cheap power supply
2011-08-26 04:09 <kristianpaul> ah :)
2011-08-26 10:42 <wolfspraul> hey this is slightly off-topic here but then not really
2011-08-26 10:42 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: did you see the reports of people on the openmoko list about US carriers texting and calling FreeRunner users that their phone cannot continue to be used on the AT&T network?
2011-08-26 10:42 <wolfspraul> quite interesting
2011-08-26 10:42 <wpwrak> wow
2011-08-26 10:42 <wolfspraul> I think we will see this more in the future.
2011-08-26 10:42 <wolfspraul> yes
2011-08-26 10:43 <wolfspraul> even intercepting phone calls and redirecting the renegate users to call centers
2011-08-26 10:43 <wolfspraul> the reason why I think we will see more of this is because networks are caught up in a jungle of old/legacy devices
2011-08-26 10:43 <wpwrak> is there an indication of the reason why they tell them to stop using it ?
2011-08-26 10:43 <wolfspraul> and have a hard time updating and supporting a myriad of devices with their basestations
2011-08-26 10:43 <wolfspraul> I think it's a general tightening of standads
2011-08-26 10:43 <wolfspraul> standards
2011-08-26 10:44 <wolfspraul> GSM is getting old, so the more old devices you can kick out the easier you can upgrade your network
2011-08-26 10:44 <wolfspraul> the basestations
2011-08-26 10:44 <wpwrak> and where was this posted ? didn't even know the lists were up again
2011-08-26 10:44 <wolfspraul> otherwise the need to support a seemingly infinite number of legacy devices holds you down and creates support costs
2011-08-26 10:45 <wolfspraul> I've read some reports in that direction, but that's the first evidence from real FreeRunner users
2011-08-26 10:45 <wpwrak> found it
2011-08-26 10:45 <wolfspraul> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2011-August/065393.html
2011-08-26 10:45 <wolfspraul> Joshua is also an avid NanoNote user :-)
2011-08-26 10:46 <wpwrak> okay, so they basically want to migrate users away from GSM. not FreeRunners per se.
2011-08-26 10:47 <wolfspraul> oh sure, they probably don't even know about 'FreeRunner'
2011-08-26 10:49 <wpwrak> the last carrier supporting GSM may be in for a surprise, with all the FreeRunner users migrating to them and all of a sudden becoming a large group ;-))
2011-08-26 11:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: labsw/: schematics, layout, and header.fpd update (in progress) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c0bfec4
2011-08-26 12:27 <kyak> xiangfu: so, the release image is probably being compiled right now? :)
2011-08-26 12:27 <xiangfu> kyak, one small problem about nanonote-files. :(
2011-08-26 12:28 <kyak> yeah, a strange problem - didn't see it before
2011-08-26 12:55 <xiangfu> kyak, yes. I setup a 'date' setup in uci-default . setup the date to the day of build when first boot. 
2011-08-26 12:55 <xiangfu> kyak, that case that problem. 
2011-08-26 12:56 <xiangfu> I have update nanonote-files , using 'cp' not 'mv' may fix the problem
2011-08-26 22:11 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: btw, if you have a "LINE" input/output and a "TAPE" input/output, would you consider them to be compatible ?
2011-08-26 22:12 <DocScrutinizer> hm?
2011-08-26 22:12 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: and are there any "standard" voltage levels for "LINE" ?
2011-08-26 22:12 <wpwrak> (audio)
2011-08-26 22:12 <DocScrutinizer> yes, yes, iirc now 1V5 RMS, formerly 0V775
2011-08-26 22:13 <DocScrutinizer> or was it Vss?
2011-08-26 22:13 <wpwrak> Vss ? or Vpp ?
2011-08-26 22:13 <DocScrutinizer> Vpp
2011-08-26 22:14 <wpwrak> let's see what wikipedia says, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level
2011-08-26 22:14 <wpwrak> whee, a mix of everything ;-)
2011-08-26 22:15 <DocScrutinizer> >>Die Impedanzen und Pegel sind bei analogem Audio nicht einheitlich, so dass es bei Geräten verschiedener Hersteller, gelegentlich sogar bei Geräten unterschiedlicher Serien desselben Herstellers, zu Lautstärkeunterschieden bis hin zu verzerrenden Fehlanpassungen kommen kann<<
2011-08-26 22:16 <wpwrak> it's reassuring to know we live in a perfect world ;-)
2011-08-26 22:16 <DocScrutinizer> 1V550 RMS
2011-08-26 22:23 <wpwrak> yup
2011-08-26 22:23 <wpwrak> it's funny. my Sony stereo, definitely a CE device, outputs about 1.3 Vpp
2011-08-26 22:24 <wpwrak> so i wonder if sony added some extra oomph or whether wikipedia is a bit on the low side for consumer electronics
2011-08-26 22:25 <DocScrutinizer> err, how's 1.3 Vpp on the high side and 1.550V RMS on the low?
2011-08-26 22:26 <DocScrutinizer> actually 1.3Vpp sounds like a proper ~0dBV level
2011-08-26 22:27 <DocScrutinizer> inputs should cope with at least +6dBV
2011-08-26 22:27 <wpwrak> i mean in reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level
2011-08-26 22:28 <wpwrak> according to the table, CE does only 0.447 Vpp, while this CE device of mine does almost three times that
2011-08-26 22:28 <DocScrutinizer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level#Nominal_levels >>ARD, Germany  +6 dBu  1.550 (approximate)  2.192 (approximate)<<
2011-08-26 22:28 <wpwrak> i'm still puzzled about what ARD have to do with _line_ levels ;-)
2011-08-26 22:30 <DocScrutinizer> :shrug:
2011-08-26 22:31 <DocScrutinizer> anyway, I seem to recall it's been 0.775 in former times, and eventually changed to 1.5, of whatever unit RMS or Vp(p) or whatever
2011-08-26 22:32 <DocScrutinizer> and I'd think an input shall handle 2Vp while an output shall at least provide 0.5Vp
2011-08-26 22:33 <DocScrutinizer> as there's no strictly defined levels, and usually you always have a volume control somewhere, there's rarely an issue as far as I can tell
2011-08-26 22:34 <wpwrak> yeah. i'm trying to figure out if M1 does things right or not.
2011-08-26 22:34 <wpwrak> if you look at this guy, what input voltage do you think it wants ? http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/codecs/WM9707/
2011-08-26 22:34 <DocScrutinizer> sometimes you find outputs that don't have Z  of 100R but rather ~1kR, those are a bit nasty
2011-08-26 22:37 <wpwrak> in what way ?
2011-08-26 22:39 <DocScrutinizer> wm9707 DS says >> Input level: (Z >10kR) AVSS-100mV .. AVDD+100mV << which I gather you'd consider Vpp for err probably sth like +9dB
2011-08-26 22:39 <wpwrak> WM9707 output seems to want 10 kOhm (page 5, Output level)
2011-08-26 22:40 <DocScrutinizer> 10kR load is normal
2011-08-26 22:40 <DocScrutinizer> see above, it even specifies 10kR Z for own inputs
2011-08-26 22:40 <DocScrutinizer> wiki said same, me too
2011-08-26 22:41 <wpwrak> hmm. i wonder if there's a typo in the absolute maximum ratings, and it's not AVDD +/- 0.3 V but AVSS-0.3 V to AVDD+0.3 V
2011-08-26 22:41 <DocScrutinizer> Zout=100  Zin=10k
2011-08-26 22:41 <DocScrutinizer> probably
2011-08-26 22:41 <wpwrak> (Zin/Zout) okay
2011-08-26 22:42 <wpwrak> okay, then we're good with lots of room to spare
2011-08-26 22:42 <DocScrutinizer> I guess you should, yes
2011-08-26 22:43 <wpwrak> cool. thanks a lot !
2011-08-26 22:44 <DocScrutinizer> Inputs are scaled for AVDD eg; 0dBv at 5.0V is equivalent to 3.6dBv at 3.3V.
2011-08-26 22:44 <DocScrutinizer> </quote>
2011-08-26 22:47 <DocScrutinizer> ADC Circuit Specifications (AVDD = 3.3V) 48kHz sampling \n SNR A-weighted (Note 1) 85 dB
2011-08-26 22:51 <DocScrutinizer> if you refer this to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level#Nominal_levels the you got something like +12dBU headroom, and your S/N at consumer audio -10dBV was 85dB - 22dB
2011-08-26 22:51 <DocScrutinizer> if I'm not mistaken
2011-08-26 22:52 <DocScrutinizer> on "proper" equipment with some ~1.xx Vpp-ish line-out, you rather have a S/n ~80dB which should be good enough
2011-08-26 22:54 <wpwrak> yeah, i think M1 usually doesn't care so much about audio quality anyway. at least not in the current uses.
2011-08-26 22:54 <wpwrak> audio is mainly used to modulate video effects. nobody will see a few dB ;-)
2011-08-26 22:55 <DocScrutinizer> if you want to do it the professional way, you get a RCA receptacle that's floating GND, and an OPAMP plus some birdseed and a potentiomenter, to lowpass-filter -3dB@24kHz and balun the RCA in, and highpass-filter@5Hz
2011-08-26 22:56 <DocScrutinizer> ooh, so I could've saved to type the prev line
2011-08-26 23:01 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: hey, you know you should spend another 1kR series, plus 2 clamp diodes, for the line-in when they go to WM-codec?
2011-08-26 23:02 <DocScrutinizer> and you need sth like a 100nF...1uF decoupling C
2011-08-26 23:02 <DocScrutinizer> and a 50k to GND after that C
2011-08-26 23:03 <DocScrutinizer> and a 50pF parallel to that 50kR
2011-08-26 23:03 <wpwrak> sure ?
2011-08-26 23:03 <DocScrutinizer> should look into WM9707 DS for application notes ;-D
2011-08-26 23:03 <wpwrak> M1 has an 1:2 input divider (2 x 6.8 k), then a 1 uF DC block
2011-08-26 23:04 <wpwrak> where did you find them ? :)
2011-08-26 23:04 <wpwrak> fig. 18 "RECOMMENDED EXTERNAL COMPONENTS" keeps things rather simple
2011-08-26 23:05 <DocScrutinizer> make the (de)coupling C 470nF ;-)
2011-08-26 23:06 <wpwrak> hmm, i somehow don't think anyone will go for that at the moment, unless something really serious pops up
2011-08-26 23:06 <DocScrutinizer> and seems the chip has internal pulldown R so the 50kR also is moot
2011-08-26 23:07 <wpwrak> but indeed, the data sheet says 470 nF
2011-08-26 23:07 <DocScrutinizer> so what's left is are the 2 clamping diodes, a 50pF parallel to one of them, and a 1k in front of that towards the RCA receptacle
2011-08-26 23:08 <DocScrutinizer> s/ is//
2011-08-26 23:10 <DocScrutinizer> maybe even a bead between the clamp diodes + 50pF junction and the C16/17
2011-08-26 23:11 <DocScrutinizer> RF on a ADC input can give you really weird effects ;-D
2011-08-26 23:11 <DocScrutinizer> and ESD is a must
2011-08-26 23:12 <DocScrutinizer> so you want the diodes and the R, the C, and probably the bead 
2011-08-26 23:13 <DocScrutinizer> I'd actually place C17 directly after the input, then the 470R...1K series, then the 2 diodes and 50pF, then the bead to pin23
2011-08-26 23:17 <DocScrutinizer> RCA-in -> C17 -> 470R -> [A] -> bead -> pin24; [A]-> diode -> VDD; [A]-> 50pF -> GND; [A]-> diode -> VSS
2011-08-26 23:18 <DocScrutinizer> AVDD, AVSS
2011-08-26 23:20 <DocScrutinizer> >> The devices performance with AVDD = 3.3V is shown in Electrical Characteristics. In 3.3V analogue operation, mid-rail reference scales to 1.65V. All ADC and DAC references are 2/3rds of their nominal 5V value. Input and output signals that are 1Vrms in 5V applications, scale to 660mVrms in 3.3V applications. It is not possible to produce an undistorted 1Vrms output by using the mixer PGA gain whilst running from a 3.3V analogue 
2011-08-26 23:20 <DocScrutinizer> supply. <<
2011-08-26 23:23 <DocScrutinizer> I did an error above, when I assumed symmetrical AVDD-GND-AVSS of +/-3V3, and based my dB estimations on that
2011-08-26 23:24 <DocScrutinizer> you can tell from >>  [A]-> diode -> VSS <<
2011-08-26 23:29 <wpwrak> let's see if there's ESD ...
2011-08-26 23:29 <wpwrak> nyet :-(
2011-08-26 23:29 <DocScrutinizer> not on the chip. Chip never have ESD for 'real life'
2011-08-26 23:29 <wpwrak> yes yes, i know what you mean ...
2011-08-26 23:30 <wpwrak> it's jack -> 1:2 vivider -> DC block -> chip
2011-08-26 23:30 <wpwrak> s/vivider/divider/
2011-08-26 23:30 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
2011-08-26 23:31 <DocScrutinizer> how'd you do a 1:2 divider there?
2011-08-26 23:31 <DocScrutinizer> sound like trouble
2011-08-26 23:31 <wpwrak> 6k8 serie, 6k8 to GND
2011-08-26 23:32 <DocScrutinizer> the chip's input is specified as Z>=10k
2011-08-26 23:32 <DocScrutinizer> that's not a 1:2 then
2011-08-26 23:32 <wpwrak> Audio GND is now equal to digital ground, after a bead connecting them made the whole box go belly-up when i connected it to my stereo :)
2011-08-26 23:33 <DocScrutinizer> lol
2011-08-26 23:33 <wpwrak> ah, okay, not quite 1:2 :)
2011-08-26 23:33 <wpwrak> adam will have kittens ;-)
2011-08-26 23:33 <DocScrutinizer> more like 1:3
2011-08-26 23:33 <wpwrak> yeah, three-ish :)
2011-08-26 23:36 <DocScrutinizer> actually (1/((1/6.8)+(1/10))) : ((1/((1/6.8)+(1/10))) + 6.8)
2011-08-26 23:37 <DocScrutinizer> or I messed it up
2011-08-26 23:37 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-08-27 01:37:21] <DocScrutinizer> (1/((1/6.8)+(1/10))) / ((1/((1/6.8)+(1/10))) + 6.8)
2011-08-26 23:37 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-08-27 01:37:22] <apt> 0.373134328358
2011-08-26 23:38 <DocScrutinizer> but you never know, chip Z can also be >>10k 
2011-08-26 23:39 <DocScrutinizer> is's just specified to be >=10k
2011-08-26 23:39 <DocScrutinizer> toldya a devicer there sounds like trouble, esp in the 1:2 ... 1:10 range
2011-08-26 23:39 <DocScrutinizer> decider
2011-08-26 23:40 <DocScrutinizer> deducer
2011-08-26 23:41 <DocScrutinizer> anyway a 50pF parallel to the 6k8 load of the divider shall suffice for RF rejection and ESD
2011-08-26 23:42 <wpwrak> so no varistor, clamp, or zener ?
2011-08-26 23:42 <DocScrutinizer> nah
2011-08-26 23:42 <wpwrak> kewl
2011-08-26 23:42 <DocScrutinizer> it's an analog input in the end of the day
2011-08-26 23:42 <wpwrak> lekernel: are you reading ?
2011-08-26 23:42 <wpwrak> lekernel: sounds like a worthwhile addition for rc4
2011-08-26 23:43 <DocScrutinizer> I guess they have some minimal clamping in chip anyway
2011-08-26 23:44 <DocScrutinizer> wit another 12kR in series this should survive OV
2011-08-26 23:45 <DocScrutinizer> well 6.8 series, 6.8 parallel
2011-08-26 23:46 <DocScrutinizer> maybe increase the 50pF to make a lowpass 3dB@20kHz
2011-08-26 23:46 <DocScrutinizer> so it eats more energy of any surge
2011-08-26 23:49 <DocScrutinizer> I gather it's a mere signal analysis input for controlling purposes? then the divider issue also is rather irrelevant as you'd get away with sth like 20dB S/N there
2011-08-26 23:50 <DocScrutinizer> you'd not want to listen to it, but for controling some parameters of a GFX algo it's just fine
2011-08-26 23:51 <DocScrutinizer> you possibly even would *want* to cut frequencies >10kHz for this purpose. Results in less aliasing concerns
2011-08-26 23:53 <DocScrutinizer> waves
2011-08-26 23:58 <DocScrutinizer> meh, wolfson had great whitepapers about e.g analog vs digital ground and how to design layout for that. Vanished from their site
2011-08-26 23:59 <DocScrutinizer> I don't think beads were mentioned at the one pont where both connect ;-D
2011-08-26 23:59 <DocScrutinizer> point*