2011-08-20 00:02 [commit] kyak: killall gmenu2x.bin (not gmenu2x) for faster Off button reaction (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/72b8767 2011-08-20 00:17 blushes 2011-08-20 00:18 zedstar: i can't quite grasp what it does, but it looks cool :) and yes, the music is good, too 2011-08-20 00:24 zedstar: actually i wonder how trusty is to measure vibration in your future aplication 2011-08-20 01:10 kyak: do you know whether gemenu2x writes a pid file? 2011-08-20 01:36 good morning everybody 2011-08-20 02:27 DocScrutinizer: you there? remember you suggested supercaps once? 2011-08-20 02:28 instead of batteries? I forgot the details... I'm looking a bit into rtc's upon larsc feedback that his m1 forgets the time whenever he turns it off 2011-08-20 02:29 so far I've found that there are thousands of discrete rtc chips at digikey, that we could probably implement an rtc in the Milkymist SoC itself, that we would probably want the cheapest and simplest chip that only does what the fpga itself cannot do (to track time when power is off) 2011-08-20 02:30 i2c and spi seem to be common interfaces, but I also found 1-serial and other serial interfaces 2011-08-20 02:30 then I thought of your supercaps :-) 2011-08-20 02:30 because in any way power has to come from somewhere... 2011-08-20 02:31 would rtc be a possible application? maybe I look for a tiny rtc chip that has a battery/supercap included? or is my thinking all wrong? 2011-08-20 02:33 (rtc chip) great idea ! 2011-08-20 02:36 yes 2011-08-20 02:37 we can implement the part with a lot of features in the SoC, somehow I think the only thing we need outside is a new tiny and cheap chip with some ability to hold power and track the time 2011-08-20 02:37 no interrupts, no high-precision stuff, nothing. all that could come from the SoC (theoretically) 2011-08-20 02:38 well, keep the time is just enought :) 2011-08-20 02:40 (high-precision) well, werner already showÂ Â us that ntp can help a lot on this 2011-08-20 02:40 once you assume network connectivity you don't need an rtc at all 2011-08-20 02:41 I'm looking for a very very simple fix. an unconnected m1 looses the time on every shutdown. 2011-08-20 02:41 yeap, i like that :) 2011-08-20 02:41 because we have an fpga, we don't need a sophisticated rtc chip with lots of bells and whistles (interrupts, alarms, high-precision, etc) 2011-08-20 02:42 so I want to understand this supercap thing more 2011-08-20 02:42 that + a super simple time tracker (poll only) is all we need 2011-08-20 02:45 kristianpaul: you build milkymist software a lot, how computing intensive is it? 2011-08-20 02:45 I am thinking about upgrading the buildhost 2011-08-20 02:45 for one, the nanonote builds keep getting slower (31 hours now) 2011-08-20 02:45 and I can only see us building more software and on a faster/more regular schedule in the future 2011-08-20 02:45 and then I want to start adding milkymist builds too 2011-08-20 02:45 including bitstream builds 2011-08-20 02:46 any thoughts? 2011-08-20 02:46 right now we have an AMD Athlon single-core machine. optimized well but fairly basic server power. I chose a cheap one for 29 EUR / month. 2011-08-20 02:46 xst, cant do multithread 2011-08-20 02:46 is there anything a buildhost could help you with? would you use it for something if it had certain power? 2011-08-20 02:47 as default.. 2011-08-20 02:47 that's ok, it's only one part 2011-08-20 02:47 even if we go to a quad-core, it will constantly build enough stuff I think 2011-08-20 02:47 I also need to get this 31 hour thing down 2011-08-20 02:47 I'm curious about your Milkymist perspective 2011-08-20 02:47 anything a buildhost could do for you? 2011-08-20 02:48 how long do the builds take? 2011-08-20 02:48 15minutes for my GPS porpuses 2011-08-20 02:48 as i use a minimac soc 2011-08-20 02:49 buildhost not for me at least for bitstream.. unless it speedup sinthesis to 5minutes, that will be cool :) 2011-08-20 02:49 and after i send a mail to automate build.. 2011-08-20 02:49 he,Â Â i lile dream ;) 2011-08-20 02:49 s/lile/like 2011-08-20 02:51 s/minimac/minimal 2011-08-20 02:53 hmm 2011-08-20 02:53 ok 2011-08-20 02:53 that helps 2011-08-20 02:53 there could be a web interface to kick off a build, or email interface for Werner, of course 2011-08-20 02:54 url to source repo, hit the build button, done 2011-08-20 02:54 a few minutes later the binary is available for download 2011-08-20 02:54 about that 31minute building i wonder if you need alwats build all from scratch? 2011-08-20 02:55 it's not so much about need 2011-08-20 02:55 i mean you change kernel and toolchain version in every build? 2011-08-20 02:55 it's about minimizing human working hours and maximizing machine power 2011-08-20 02:55 sure 2011-08-20 02:55 and speed up 2011-08-20 02:55 you can always compensate for less machine power with more manual hours spent, but who wants that 2011-08-20 02:55 I think we want it the other way round ;-) 2011-08-20 02:56 15minutes still... arggh :) 2011-08-20 02:56 when we started the buildhost, it wasn't clear whether it would be used at all 2011-08-20 02:56 but now we have multiple people using it regularly 2011-08-20 02:56 and with Milkymist the need will only go up 2011-08-20 02:56 but compared to 40minutos for a full soc build, well :-) 2011-08-20 02:57 and it's used for schhist and maybe brdhist one day 2011-08-20 02:57 wolfspraul: if you upgrade.. check for ram. that also speeds things up considerably (disk cache) 2011-08-20 02:57 eq4 is a good deal 2011-08-20 02:57 on my computer.. a 2.6Ghz amd sempron 1gb. dunno numbers from lekernel ? 2011-08-20 02:57 yes I was thinking about eq4 2011-08-20 02:57 need to upgrade to eq4 some day... 2011-08-20 02:57 it's an x2 now, the cheapest physical hw I could get 2011-08-20 02:58 wolfspraul: i know ;) 2011-08-20 02:58 I would probably also setup the new one with Fedora 2011-08-20 02:58 :-D 2011-08-20 02:59 I tested Fedora a little and it looks good. I like their more speedy release schedule. 2011-08-20 02:59 selinux is causing hickups sometimes, but so far I've been able to solve them quickly 2011-08-20 02:59 kill it ! 2011-08-20 02:59 :) 2011-08-20 02:59 hopefully that wouldn't cause trouble to buildhost users (selinux) 2011-08-20 02:59 well, I like security 2011-08-20 02:59 I have no big pro/con about selinux in particular, just a user. 2011-08-20 02:59 insecurity is among us ;-) 2011-08-20 02:59 sure 2011-08-20 03:00 roh: I was hoping for an eq4 price reduction or improved hw specs, but didn't come :-) 2011-08-20 03:01 I want more power, more ram, ssd, etc. 2011-08-20 03:02 eq is old now and hasn't been upgraded in a while. maybe they come out with something new soon... 2011-08-20 03:03 so for now i see no diference if build host speed and my computer to get sinthesize stuff 2011-08-20 03:03 s/if/in 2011-08-20 03:03 wolfspraul: well.. that usually comes with 'new series' and the old ones get dumped out cheap.. as happened with the ds series 2011-08-20 03:03 ye 2011-08-20 03:03 yes 2011-08-20 03:04 I know. So I was hoping for something new. eq is old. 2011-08-20 03:04 can we test driver a build in that new server? 2011-08-20 03:04 what new should there be after i7 cpus? 2011-08-20 03:04 don't understand 2011-08-20 03:04 anyway i guess you upgrade to quadr core 2011-08-20 03:04 i mean before make the move 2011-08-20 03:05 no not really. 2011-08-20 03:05 but you could get a server and cancel if after a month. 2011-08-20 03:05 the amount of working hours you would put into this test would weigh far more than the 100 EUR or so you would still need to pay to hetzner in that case. 2011-08-20 03:06 100EUR?? nah... i still with my own build server :) 2011-08-20 03:06 no you asked about a test 2011-08-20 03:06 helps have a laptop and mostly comand line tools for the rest of the tasks :) 2011-08-20 03:06 yeah, but better not ;) 2011-08-20 03:06 the easiest way to test at hetzner is to just get the machine, do what you want, and if it's not good cancel after 1 month 2011-08-20 03:07 100eour is not a nice number to me :) 2011-08-20 03:07 sure, it costs money 2011-08-20 03:07 fot this test 2011-08-20 03:08 yes of course. but if we need a bigger and better buildhost, we'd just do it. upgrade from the current x2 (29 EUR/month) to something better... 2011-08-20 03:08 no test 2011-08-20 03:08 still cheap.. i couldnt provide the hw including support and power as well as ethernet for that money. not even if i got the space and ip for free. 2011-08-20 03:08 just upgrade and we know it'll be more powerful, from the specs 2011-08-20 03:08 sure you cannot, but hetzner has scale and is managed quite professionally 2011-08-20 03:09 ack. just ressurected chandra for openmoko 2011-08-20 03:12 wow, Linux seems to have support for ca. 100 rtc chips :-) 2011-08-20 03:12 just looking at drivers/rtc 2011-08-20 03:22 avast 2011-08-20 03:22 lemay: hey there 2011-08-20 03:24 wb lemay :) 2011-08-20 03:25 I brought home 'Understanding GPS Principles and Applications' Edited by Elliot Kaplan 2011-08-20 03:26 and GNSS Applications and Methods, by Gleason and Gebre-Egziabher 2011-08-20 03:32 those books have topics related to software aprouch? 2011-08-20 03:33 they're textbooks with all the standard approaches 2011-08-20 05:15 wolfspraul: yes, I suggested supercaps for a number of good tested purposes and for some nonsense purposes (like battery swap buffering for phones) 2011-08-20 05:17 for both GTA02 and RX51/N900 the supercap alternative for powering RTC has been implemented and I got reports it works flawlessly 2011-08-20 05:18 I strongly discourage chips with battery built in, afaik there's only been dallas chip and I frown at it 2011-08-20 05:20 ok great, can you point to a supercap that could work to power an rtc? 2011-08-20 05:21 the very first rtc I found is a Seiko S-35390A http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=728-1006-2-ND 2011-08-20 05:21 60 cents, existing driver in kernel.org 2011-08-20 05:21 datasheet http://datasheet.sii-ic.com/en/real_time_clock/S35390A_E.pdf 2011-08-20 05:22 I had no idea that RTC chips go from 60 cents to 40 USD (!) 2011-08-20 05:22 amazing 2011-08-20 05:22 I was hoping to find something super simple that essentially just keeps track of one number on a tiny power budget 2011-08-20 05:23 but I guess anybody who adds a discrete RTC to an embedded product will more likely choose one with a lot of features 2011-08-20 05:26 DocScrutinizer: do you have a name or URL for a supercap? or the solution that was done on N900? 2011-08-20 05:26 sure 2011-08-20 05:27 http://www.mouser.com/catalog/632/2009.pdfÂ Â http://il.farnell.com/taiyo-yuden/pas414hr-va5r/cap-0-06f-3-3v-80ohm-4-8mm-coin/dp/1853000?Ntt=PAS414HR-VA5R 2011-08-20 05:29 I think the guys that modded N900 followed my suggestion for 2nd URL, the GTA02 reworks I dunno exactly which supercap-buttoncell got used for that, maybe the first URL bottom-of-page type 2011-08-20 05:32 great, thanks 2011-08-20 05:33 rtc chips seem to have all sorts of features like square wave output, watchdog timer, trickle charger. interesting. 2011-08-20 05:33 no idea what these things are good for :-) well. the watchdog timer makes sense. 2011-08-20 05:33 nota bene the rationale for using this supercap buttoncels instead of proper LiIon cells comprised the fact that on a phone you usually _swap_ battery and thus need bupbat power for some couple of minutes only. Those caps can not power the RTC for months or years as the LiIon cells do 2011-08-20 05:35 need to check how much power they can hold vs. lowest power rtc 2011-08-20 05:36 but of course, understand 2011-08-20 05:36 DocScrutinizer: what is a square wave output or trickle charger in an rtc good for? 2011-08-20 05:36 reading about trickle charger now... 2011-08-20 05:36 square wave output usually to clock other low power components like e.g LP5521 indicator LED flasher 2011-08-20 05:37 the rtcs I find so far seem to want about 250-300 nA at 2V 2011-08-20 05:38 GSM modems also frequently have a 32kHz xtalÂ Â to keep the shedule during deepsleep (see #1024 where that clock generator was flawed by our layout) 2011-08-20 05:39 0.2..0.2uA - seens correct 2011-08-20 05:39 seems* 2011-08-20 05:39 oh I see, this rtc datasheet even mentions supercaps and charging them http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Pericom%20PDFs/PT7C4302.pdf 2011-08-20 05:39 0.2 .. 0.3 2011-08-20 05:39 that's what they mean with 'trickle charging' 2011-08-20 05:39 \o/ 2011-08-20 05:42 does that mean an rtc that does not support trickle charging is harder to connect to a supercap? I guess they added a little bit of circuitry inside this one... 2011-08-20 05:47 well, afaiu the super cap is a working replacement for LiIon cells, and should handle all chips' chargers designed for LiIon. Chips that have no charger at all are designed for primary cell power source and I strongly suggest this variant whenever you can afford to have a holder for a CR2016 (or similar) LiIon primary cell on your PCB and housing allows access to that cell to swap it 2011-08-20 05:48 no option for neither freerunner nor N900 obviously 2011-08-20 05:50 time for 12648430Â Â Â Â 2011-08-20 06:13 DocScrutinizer: ok, the taiyo yuden supercap has a capacitance of 60,000 uF 2011-08-20 06:13 how long can that power an rtc needing 200nA@2V... calculating :-) 2011-08-20 06:13 yep, aka 60mAs/V 2011-08-20 06:14 Vtop 2.8V, Vend 1.5V Vdelta 1.3V ergo 60*1.3 mAs capacity 2011-08-20 06:16 60 * 1.3 / 0.003(mA) = seconds such a cap can power your RTC 2011-08-20 06:16 looks like a year? 2011-08-20 06:16 ok, I got 1000 wrong somewhere 2011-08-20 06:17 433 minutes? 2011-08-20 06:18 yes, about 7h 2011-08-20 06:18 ok, interesting 2011-08-20 06:20 honestly, if your housing ME and the PCB size (and audience/usecase) allows, better go for primary cells 2011-08-20 06:20 as virtually all PC mainboards do today 2011-08-20 06:21 primary cells? what do you mean? 2011-08-20 06:21 but, use, dispose 2011-08-20 06:21 buy 2011-08-20 06:21 non-rechargable swappable cells 2011-08-20 06:27 you mean like the round watch batteries CR2016 and such? 2011-08-20 06:28 how does a desktop PC keep the rtc powered? or a notebook - how long can you take out the battery without loosing the rtc? 2011-08-20 06:29 wolfspraul: usually also lithium cells 2011-08-20 06:30 either solder-on or as connected pack with a short cable 2011-08-20 06:30 wolfspraul: (CR2016) yes, exactly 2011-08-20 06:31 they are good for 5-10 years. and one can replace them after that. the one on my tp600e went empty at some point and i just replaced them by some new ones and used new shrinking tube after resoldering the cable 2011-08-20 06:31 moin roh! how's chandra business? OM community is suffering 2011-08-20 06:31 which cell was it? CR20xx ? 2011-08-20 06:31 sometimes its also 2 cells, but that was on older models 2011-08-20 06:31 DocScrutinizer: should be working again 2011-08-20 06:31 OOOH 2011-08-20 06:31 please check/test 2011-08-20 06:31 so basically the supercaps are good for what? only a couple hours it seems 2011-08-20 06:32 \o/ 2011-08-20 06:32 works 2011-08-20 06:32 even on a mobile device you probably better have 2 batteries, one to power the whole device, and a cr2016 or so for the rtc? 2011-08-20 06:32 mail.om at least 2011-08-20 06:32 wolfspraul: depends on the power use. i guess they wont survive a month-long period without recharge while driving a rtc 2011-08-20 06:32 of course that's big. if space is a concern the supercap may be enough if people switch batteries immediately. 2011-08-20 06:32 roh: we just calculated it to be ca. 7h 2011-08-20 06:32 wolfspraul: not exactly a CR2016, but maybe a CR1510 2011-08-20 06:33 ok even smaller, nice 2011-08-20 06:33 wolfspraul: most simple mobiles (featurephones) dont have any batteries i know of. so either they survive on a cap or just dont have time after swapping battery 2011-08-20 06:33 i think my motorola survives a few minutes and then i have to reenter time manually 2011-08-20 06:33 usually the latter 2011-08-20 06:33 or they get the time from the network, I would think 2011-08-20 06:33 for a connected device, if that's the only purpose of the rtc 2011-08-20 06:33 also common 2011-08-20 06:34 mainboards sometimes even accept large coin style cells like cr2032 2011-08-20 06:34 in a holder for easy replacement 2011-08-20 06:34 atx stuff 2011-08-20 06:34 usually CR2016 on mainboards of PC 2011-08-20 06:34 err, maybe I'm wrong 2011-08-20 06:34 wolfspraul: in germany afaik only one network transmits a time out of 4. and the quality (precision) is also not that good everywhere 2011-08-20 06:35 could also the 3.2mm 2032 2011-08-20 06:35 some networks get the utc vs local time wrong etc. 2011-08-20 06:35 DocScrutinizer: thats what i would use if i have the space 2011-08-20 06:35 2032 for what? 2011-08-20 06:36 for the rtc sounds a little crazy, or you mean for the whole device? 2011-08-20 06:36 yeah, 2016 and 2032 most common and easily available nowadays 2011-08-20 06:36 common, available everywhere from many sources, enduser compatible replacement process, cheap, easy to use schematic wise 2011-08-20 06:36 wolfspraul: for the rtc/whatever needs to survive power off or battery change (depending on device) 2011-08-20 06:36 wow 2032 looks overkill for that 2011-08-20 06:37 for 'small' devices there are other formfactors like CR1512 (15mm dia, 1.2mm thick) and others 2011-08-20 06:37 CR1208? 2011-08-20 06:37 wolfspraul: dont underestimate the factor of handling and sourcing on that. if its too small or to weird, endusers cant get it and have mechanical problems in handling when needed 2011-08-20 06:37 agreed but 2016 is very common 2011-08-20 06:38 how long could that power a 200nA rtc? 2011-08-20 06:38 aeons 2011-08-20 06:38 ;-) 2011-08-20 06:39 80-90mAh seems common on quality cells (checked sanyo and energizer specsheets) 2011-08-20 06:39 I'd guess a CR2032 has several 100s of mAh 2011-08-20 06:40 so 10k to 100k hours 2011-08-20 06:41 2032 is 240mAh 2011-08-20 06:41 240 / 0.002 2011-08-20 06:41 err 0.0002 2011-08-20 06:42 13years 2011-08-20 06:42 13 years for 2032, probably a little less than half for 2016, let's say 5-6 years 2011-08-20 06:42 136 years at 0.0002 2011-08-20 06:42 13 at 0.002 2011-08-20 06:42 for a cr2032 2011-08-20 06:43 aeons, toldya 2011-08-20 06:43 i bet self-discharge is a bigger influence on it running flat then 2011-08-20 06:43 sure 2011-08-20 06:45 meh. its late/early (8:45 am) .. need to head home catch some sleep 2011-08-20 06:45 wolfspraul: if you by any chance can avoid soldered battery and allow user to access it to swap, go for whatever size of CRxxyy primary cell. Otherwise go for supercap, as the soldered LiIon bupbat seem a broken technology 2011-08-20 06:45 roh: :-D have a pleasant rest, and thanks for fixing chandra 2011-08-20 06:50 oh sure, no worries 2011-08-20 06:50 wolfspraul: my Sony scoopman NT-1 had a CR1220 for RTC, and a very "expensive" door mechanism to access it to swap. Alas there must've been a flaw in hw, as that friggin cell been empty every 6 months 2011-08-20 06:50 I am not planning anything in particular anyway, just trying to understand the ballpark numbers for different technologies 2011-08-20 06:50 but of course, soldered li-ion sounds wrong by design 2011-08-20 06:50 supercap is fine, but has use-case limitations 2011-08-20 06:51 yup 2011-08-20 06:51 once you are in the 20xx or 15xx area it's probably mostly about size and how common / easy to get something is, even after 5, 10 years 2011-08-20 06:51 all understood 2011-08-20 06:51 supercap fine for devices that most usually have a main battery, to survive swapping of that main battery only 2011-08-20 06:51 so a typical 2011 CR2032 cell can theoretically power a 200nA rtc for 136 years? 2011-08-20 06:52 not 13 2011-08-20 06:52 of course self-discharge will be the much bigger factor 2011-08-20 06:52 is it 1% / day? must be less for those I would think 2011-08-20 06:52 nah, more like 10% per year 2011-08-20 06:52 I thought I had read something about 1% / day somewhere 2011-08-20 06:52 ah ok 2011-08-20 06:53 1% / day is for LiIon rechargable, not for primary 2011-08-20 06:53 primary is which type (chemical)? 2011-08-20 06:54 primary is use-once-and-discard 2011-08-20 06:54 also lithium? 2011-08-20 06:54 yep 2011-08-20 06:54 what's the difference between 'primary' and li-ion? 2011-08-20 06:54 or are both li-ion and one is rechargeable and the other not? 2011-08-20 06:54 different semantic domain 2011-08-20 06:54 yes 2011-08-20 06:55 CR2032 is a Li(Ion)-cell, but not rechargable (by design, though in fact they are ;-D) 2011-08-20 06:56 so it's a primary cell 2011-08-20 06:56 a BP-5L Nokia battery is a rechargable LiIon (or LiPo) so it's not a primary 2011-08-20 06:57 primary is the opposite of rechargable 2011-08-20 06:58 if it's the same chemical, why does a primary cell have a self-discharge of 10%/year, but a rechargeable 1%/day ? 2011-08-20 06:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_cell >>A primary cell is any kind of battery in which the electrochemical reaction is not reversible, rendering the cell non-rechargeable.<< 2011-08-20 06:59 because it's not exactly the same cell chemistry 2011-08-20 06:59 different electrolyte, different separator 2011-08-20 07:00 different mechanical (and also somewhat chemical) electrode design 2011-08-20 07:01 in a primary cell you for example don't need much auxiliary material to keep electrode mechanical shape, the whole electrode can be built by virtually massive Lithium 2011-08-20 07:02 charging such a cell won't result in an electrode of same shape as the original 2011-08-20 07:04 this plus a lot of subtle diffs make a cell primary, which usually also results in better capacity on same formfactor than a rechargeable cell would offer 2011-08-20 07:04 Anyone know how to access/read a broken (CRC, UBI errors) Debian Nanonote system? It was working, but something happened, not sure what, and now it won't boot. 2011-08-20 07:06 Something that doesn't let the system boot the kernel, without a kernel panic. I've tried the "root=" append line, no luck. 2011-08-20 07:06 DocScrutinizer: understand, thanks! 2011-08-20 07:07 >>Primary batteries are useful where long periods of storage are required; a primary battery can be constructed to have a lower self-discharge rate than a rechargeable battery, so all its capacity is available for useful purposes. Applications that require a small current for a long time, for example a smoke detector, also use primary batteries since the self-discharge current of a rechargeable battery would exceed the load current ... 2011-08-20 07:07 << 2011-08-20 07:09 Is it possible to access the Nano through the USB connection? 2011-08-20 07:09 we had some plans but I don't think they are fully implemented yet 2011-08-20 07:09 Ok. 2011-08-20 07:09 such as loading a rescue system via usbboot directly into memory 2011-08-20 07:09 you can try to boot from the memory card though 2011-08-20 07:10 how about that? 2011-08-20 07:10 Not sure on how to do that. 2011-08-20 07:10 as long as u-boot still loads that should work 2011-08-20 07:11 I tried to "HOWTO" on the official website, it needed me to be on the machine while creating the bootable card. 2011-08-20 07:11 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Updating_Ben_with_an_SD 2011-08-20 07:12 I'm sure there's an easy way to create the card on arbitrary PCs 2011-08-20 07:13 creating the card on Ben just described as a convenience thing 2011-08-20 07:13 Nod. 2011-08-20 07:13 (no Ben here, so I talk outa my a...) 2011-08-20 07:15 ignatius-: that page is about updating the Ben from a memory card, there's another one about booting, but I cannot find it either :-) 2011-08-20 07:17 :/ 2011-08-20 08:31 jow_laptop: nope, gmenu2x doesn't write a pid file. Probably it used to, when we started it via start-stop-daemon. But now it just spawns from inittab 2011-08-20 08:37 kyak: how do you feel about upgrading the buildhost to a more powerful machine? is it worth it? 2011-08-20 08:45 wolfspraul: yeah, why not? Upgrading is always worth it. For now, the build for Ben takes more than 24 hours. It would be great if we could "fit" it into 24 hours 2011-08-20 08:46 from the other hand side, if we look at the rate of commits to openwrt-xburst.git and openwrt-packages.git, it is longer than 24 hours 2011-08-20 08:47 so basically consequitive images are very often the same 2011-08-20 08:47 in this thinking, updating to a more powerful machine doesn't make sense 2011-08-20 08:52 at the end, it also depends on the price you are going to pay for upgrade :) 2011-08-20 09:14 kyak: he. interesting point about commit intervals :-) 2011-08-20 09:14 but I also want to make the build experience snappier and more fun for people who use the buildhost actively 2011-08-20 09:14 and if you commit something specifically, you may have to wait 2 days until you can try: not good 2011-08-20 09:15 I'll think about it. the monthly price would go from 29 to 49 EUR. Maybe I wait for a new server line to be introduced by the hoster. 2011-08-20 09:33 wolfspraul: good :) 2011-08-20 09:41 wolfspraul: the full boot is speed up :) 2011-08-20 09:41 i press the button once, and the thing just powers on at the exact same moment 2011-08-20 09:42 goes through the whole boot sequence 2011-08-20 09:42 you could try it yourself, since poke is avaivable for quite some time now 2011-08-20 09:51 [commit] kyak: mc: override the upstream version to include wide char support (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7f56d7c 2011-08-20 10:34 wolfspraul: would it be feasible to cache some pieces, so a build wouldn't need to run 24h+ to build same cruft over and over again? Sounds kinda silly 2011-08-20 10:35 I mean even a complete kernel build for maemo takes <3h on my 1.8GHz dual core pentium laptop 2011-08-20 10:35 DocScrutinizer: the point of build is to build from scratch 2011-08-20 10:36 incremental builds are not interesting 2011-08-20 10:36 I'd not expect a buildhost to build a "new" (in fact same old) kernel, when all I did was correcting a typo in ls --help 2011-08-20 10:37 nevermind, I got not the faintest clue what you guys are doing there on your buildhosts 2011-08-20 10:38 it had been proved several times that change in one place can lead to strange results in other places. And using "cached" results leads to unpredictable things 2011-08-20 10:38 hmmm o.O 2011-08-20 10:39 yeah, just search for "build from scratch" in irc logs 2011-08-20 10:39 I'm out, not intending to bug you with noobish musing 2011-08-20 10:41 I easily can agree on building core system in one run is a clean easy to understand thing 2011-08-20 10:41 still 24+ hours? WTF! 2011-08-20 10:42 whatever, I'm out again 2011-08-20 10:43 kyak: poke? you mean a tool I can use to write that rtc register manually? 2011-08-20 10:43 are we setting it automatically in the latest builds? 2011-08-20 10:55 wolfspraul: yeah, that tool. THis is not yet done automatically.. 2011-08-20 10:55 i suggested xiangfu to include it in start script 2011-08-20 11:06 hmm, ok :-) 2011-08-20 11:06 amazing that we haven't included something so nice right away 2011-08-20 11:06 the image release cycles are too long 2011-08-20 11:10 do we need poke?Â Â I guess dd of=/dev/mem bs=1 count=1 seek=0xblabla would work, too :) 2011-08-20 11:11 wait, no, with I/O mem it won't.Â Â But in gforth it can be scripted. 2011-08-20 11:11 well gotta go 2011-08-20 11:51 Anyone know how to make a bootable SD card? 2011-08-20 12:04 After installing the boot loader and the userland on the SD card, upon booting, I get a garbled screen, that says somehting like "In: serial / Out: lcd / Err: lcd / Hit any key tÂ Â xc" 2011-08-20 12:07 where did you get the binaries you put on the memory card from? 2011-08-20 12:08 http://jlime.com/downloads/releases/muffinman/ 2011-08-20 12:08 (Couldn't find instructions on the main qi site) 2011-08-20 12:09 kyak: do you know where the instructions for booting from the memory card are? 2011-08-20 12:10 Thanks for answering. I appreciate it. 2011-08-20 12:10 I've been having problem after problem... all I wanted at first was a custom kernel, with certain loadable modules. And this crap happens. 2011-08-20 12:11 well custom kernel is quite something to start with 2011-08-20 12:11 Compiling kernel after kernel. 2011-08-20 12:11 Yeah. True. 2011-08-20 12:12 I've found that the new "qi kernel" (vanilla?) supports the 2GiB NAND. I'm guessing the OpenWRT team or whoever patches it to support less. 2011-08-20 12:13 So, i've been going with that kernel. Still have to get the KS7010 driver working, too. 2011-08-20 12:13 oh, wow 2011-08-20 12:14 that's an ambitious goal 2011-08-20 12:14 I had it all working at once. Then it got screwed up somehow. 2011-08-20 12:14 I (stupidly) compiled the kernel, and it did everything I wanted it to do, then, I think I must've deleted that source tree, and have been looking for it for a few weeks now. 2011-08-20 12:15 hmm. yeah. painful. 2011-08-20 12:15 My goal was to have a smaller startup font. :/ 2011-08-20 12:15 unfortunately there is so much activity in the kernel that I cannot really follow. I just hope the images coming out of the automated builds work :-) 2011-08-20 12:16 Nod. 2011-08-20 12:16 I think the Ben Nanonote should be a lot more popular. Even amongst the Dingoo A320 crowd. 2011-08-20 12:17 It's really an awesome little gadget. 2011-08-20 12:17 and you say this after weeks of struggling :-) 2011-08-20 12:17 Heh. Yeah. 2011-08-20 12:17 I can't wait for the successor. 2011-08-20 12:17 (If there will be one) 2011-08-20 12:19 But, yeah. My goal is to get to where I was before. An ultra small WIFI device that can do more than a smart phone. 2011-08-20 12:34 wolfspraul: not sure where the instructions are. But this is pretty simple 2011-08-20 12:34 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/OpenWrt_Software_Image#Image_2011-02-23 2011-08-20 12:35 this is described in this changelog how to boot from sdcard partitions 2011-08-20 12:36 "fw_printenv" on Ben itself is also pretty explanatory on what are the available options 2011-08-20 12:36 http://dpaste.com/598987/ 2011-08-20 12:36 Thanks. 2011-08-20 12:38 kyak: wow, thanks. believe it or not I couldn't find it earlier :-) 2011-08-20 12:38 np :) 2011-08-20 12:41 ignatius-: regarding the smaller font. Do you really need it at boot time? Wouldn't it be better to use setfont later? 2011-08-20 12:43 I just like to be able to see how things are while booting. 2011-08-20 12:43 Init scripts and whatnot. 2011-08-20 12:44 Upon F4-PowerON "Wrong Image Format for bootm command" 2011-08-20 12:45 F1-PowerON = same error as before. Garbled screen. 2011-08-20 12:45 what is your sd card configuration? 2011-08-20 12:45 i mean, partitions layout 2011-08-20 12:46 /dev/sdc1 = ext2, /dev/sdc2 = swap 2011-08-20 12:46 and what rootfs have you put of sd card? and where have you put the uImage? 2011-08-20 12:46 /dev/sdc is a 1GiB MicroSD card. 2011-08-20 12:46 The MuffinMan rootfs, and the uImage is in /boot 2011-08-20 12:47 do you have the latest bootloader? 2011-08-20 12:47 AFAIK. 2011-08-20 12:47 this is vital important 2011-08-20 12:47 Where can I get it? 2011-08-20 12:47 hm. 2011-08-20 12:47 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/latest/openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot.bin 2011-08-20 12:47 (obviously?) 2011-08-20 12:48 Flashing... 2011-08-20 12:48 for your layout, it seems fine 2011-08-20 12:48