2011-08-09 00:04 <DocScrutinizer> MTHEL
2011-08-09 00:04 <DocScrutinizer> LAZ0RS
2011-08-09 00:04 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
2011-08-09 00:46 <kristianpaul> Artyom, okay i think i missed that implementation the control register :), btw i noticed you implemnted I/Q separate inputs for namuru, any advantage noticed so far?
2011-08-09 00:56 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: thanks for the epiphan link (vga grabber), and yes, I did find them before
2011-08-09 00:57 <wolfspraul> problem is that the 300 USD lowest-cost version really only captures 640x480 well (fps), once the resolution goes up fps goes down quite fast
2011-08-09 00:57 <wolfspraul> at 1024x768 it could only record 10 fps
2011-08-09 00:57 <wolfspraul> so most likely that 300 USD grabber would only be good for a limited timeframe
2011-08-09 00:58 <wolfspraul> next, ironically, by the time I have this in China, it will cost at least 500 USD
2011-08-09 00:58 <wolfspraul> China is great for anything made here, but has steep import duties for foreign made electronics
2011-08-09 00:59 <wpwrak> ah, just like argentina. except that nothing is really made here :)
2011-08-09 00:59 <wolfspraul> and it's not like the iphone that is (or was) smuggled into the country in the millions in hand-luggage and thousands of other ways, but for something rare as this, I need to order it and it will be taxed in the official way
2011-08-09 00:59 <wpwrak> or find some traveler who can just "hand-carry" it
2011-08-09 01:00 <wolfspraul> so for example when I bought my Samsung projector, US price at amazon was something like 420 USD, in Beijing I paid 660 USD
2011-08-09 01:00 <wolfspraul> yes totally [hand-carry]
2011-08-09 01:00 <wolfspraul> mountains of goods are being imported that way all the time
2011-08-09 01:00 <wolfspraul> I have never, not once, seen any customs official at the airport open anything
2011-08-09 01:01 <wolfspraul> there's a lot of professional mules who fly all the time for that purpose
2011-08-09 01:01 <wolfspraul> and you have no idea what's going on at the HK/Shenzhen border :-)
2011-08-09 01:01 <wolfspraul> but... that's not practical for rare devices like this
2011-08-09 01:01 <wolfspraul> so, for me it's 500 USD
2011-08-09 01:01 <wolfspraul> and the resolution/frame-rate locks me in and will quickly make it obsolete, if we assume progress on m1
2011-08-09 01:02 <wolfspraul> it just doesn't feel right
2011-08-09 01:02 <wolfspraul> I rather just use a camera for now, and hope that the native m1 resolution goes up, or some form of streaming becomes possible
2011-08-09 01:02 <wpwrak> oh, i have some ideas. don't you remember how our HXD8 flashing setup was replicated at the fab ? :)
2011-08-09 01:02 <wolfspraul> or maybe the additional support of tv-out or digital video
2011-08-09 01:03 <wolfspraul> I rather work on the product itself, than on something like this vga grabber that makes me feel as if we are stuck :-)
2011-08-09 01:03 <wpwrak> the problem is that the demo videos don't do the product justice
2011-08-09 01:04 <wpwrak> in 1970, they would have been quite alright. but in 2011 ?
2011-08-09 01:05 <wpwrak> of course, you could also try to find someone who already has such equipment, and let them do the recording. dunno how difficult that is.
2011-08-09 01:05 <kristianpaul> *g*
2011-08-09 01:05 <wolfspraul> Sebastien knows someone I think
2011-08-09 01:05 <wolfspraul> but whether it will happen is another question, it's very time consuming
2011-08-09 01:06 <wolfspraul> we have a lot of patches, we would want videos with different kinds of music, etc.
2011-08-09 01:06 <wolfspraul> I will _not_ move forward on the vga grabber
2011-08-09 01:06 <wolfspraul> so that opportunity is up for grabs :-)
2011-08-09 01:07 <DocScrutinizer> I thought a lot of gfx cards come with video-in?
2011-08-09 01:07 <wolfspraul> composite video-in?
2011-08-09 01:07 <DocScrutinizer> err yep
2011-08-09 01:07 <wolfspraul> m1 currently does not support composite tv-out
2011-08-09 01:08 <DocScrutinizer> what else?
2011-08-09 01:08 <wolfspraul> it's possible, we sourced adapter cables already, but it needs changes in the Milkymist SoC to support
2011-08-09 01:08 <wolfspraul> so many things are possible in the Milkymist SoC :-)
2011-08-09 01:08 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: if you run into anybody at the camp good at Verilog, tell them about Milkymist ;-)
2011-08-09 01:09 <DocScrutinizer> I think I wil simply send them to the milkymist talk
2011-08-09 01:09 <wolfspraul> first of all tell them there is this exciting project, but more people need to work together, rather than on their own isolated island
2011-08-09 01:10 <wolfspraul> it's like the real cold fusion hasn't happened yet :-)
2011-08-09 01:10 <DocScrutinizer> isn't this supposed to be part of milkymist talk?
2011-08-09 01:10 <wolfspraul> 1-man project still, at the core of it (the SoC itself)
2011-08-09 01:10 <wolfspraul> I would hope, I don't know
2011-08-09 01:10 <wolfspraul> it's a bit of a chicken & egg problem
2011-08-09 01:11 <wolfspraul> if a second person would show up that could seriously join forces with Sebastien, that'd be awesome
2011-08-09 01:11 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul may be one day, with his GPS baseband :-)
2011-08-09 01:11 <wolfspraul> but the wishlist in the SoC is really big
2011-08-09 01:11 <wolfspraul> tv-out is one of those
2011-08-09 01:11 <kristianpaul> i will just the patch.. after that well :)
2011-08-09 01:11 <wolfspraul> and real-time video encoding another (that would solve the entire 'grabbing' discussion for good)
2011-08-09 01:12 <kristianpaul> i think mwalle already seems to team up well with Sebastien
2011-08-09 01:12 <wolfspraul> yes there are hopeful beginnings, we all try, right?
2011-08-09 01:12 <kristianpaul> sure
2011-08-09 01:12 <DocScrutinizer> just wonders what weird video format MM is supposed to output then
2011-08-09 01:12 <wolfspraul> today it outputs vga
2011-08-09 01:12 <DocScrutinizer> hah
2011-08-09 01:13 <wolfspraul> support of tv-out and s-video is not hard, but still work (according to Sebastien, he said he would do it together with a bigger cleanup/rewrite of the video subsystem)
2011-08-09 01:13 <kristianpaul> http://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/Fahrplan/events/4412.en.html
2011-08-09 01:13 <DocScrutinizer> there's been that TV<->VGA converter, for some xx bucks
2011-08-09 01:13 <wolfspraul> support for digital video out the same, more work (we would need to add a digital video out connector first, like dvi)
2011-08-09 01:13 <DocScrutinizer> I bet it was made in China
2011-08-09 01:13 <wolfspraul> well, yes
2011-08-09 01:13 <wolfspraul> but it won't work :-)
2011-08-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> because it's not implemented in the SoC
2011-08-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> I have the adapter with me, and Sebastien has one
2011-08-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> now only the software is missing
2011-08-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> 'only'
2011-08-09 01:14 <DocScrutinizer> sorry I can't follow
2011-08-09 01:15 <wolfspraul> you can connect that adapter to Milkymist One, but it won't work
2011-08-09 01:15 <DocScrutinizer> how's a CVBA<->VGA converter box dependent on anything inside SoC?
2011-08-09 01:15 <wolfspraul> ask Sebastien
2011-08-09 01:15 <wolfspraul> it's not working today
2011-08-09 01:16 <wolfspraul> if it's easy, send a patch :-)
2011-08-09 01:16 <DocScrutinizer> I fsckng have no clue what to patch on a equipment and setup that's supposed to *just work*
2011-08-09 01:16 <aw_> 0x7d histories: 1. After reflash, D2/D3 is dimly lit. 2. http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/milkymist_one/production/rc3/test_results/7D-reflash-results 3. couple days later d2/d3 is off after power on. 4. d2/d3/ dimly lit after pressed middle btn. 5. stopped at 'Bitstream length: 1484404' after using shorter BEN cable/reflashed. 6. replaced a new diode and c238 7. Let it fully dried over night 8. Reconfiguration->boot
2011-08-09 01:16 <aw_> (D2 ON)->rendering(D3 ON) when power on and pressed middle btn
2011-08-09 01:17 <kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: thats not the case for all in milkymist 
2011-08-09 01:17 <kristianpaul> but it prety do cool video sinthesis :-)
2011-08-09 01:17 <aw_> not bad results that replaced new diode and C238. ;-)
2011-08-09 01:17 <DocScrutinizer> is *completely* puzzled
2011-08-09 01:18 <wolfspraul> *just work* is for vga
2011-08-09 01:18 <wolfspraul> you started to talk about tv-out (composite video), and I told you it's possible in hardware, but needs a software (ic design) update
2011-08-09 01:18 <kristianpaul> I think i understand DocScrutinizer, i would spect as well that if something is VGA that chinesse adapter just will work
2011-08-09 01:19 <DocScrutinizer> no, I talked about TV-IN, NOT TV-out
2011-08-09 01:19 <kristianpaul> ah...
2011-08-09 01:19 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: no way, very few graphics cards support that
2011-08-09 01:19 <wolfspraul> you cannot plug this into any vga connector and think it will work: it will not
2011-08-09 01:19 <kristianpaul> ah, is not just the cable magic ;)
2011-08-09 01:19 <kristianpaul> got it
2011-08-09 01:20 <wolfspraul> the cable is just a passive part, I sourced it for 1 USD
2011-08-09 01:20 <DocScrutinizer> *you* started to talk about TV-out, while I pointed at a converter box available for some 4A$, that converts *any* VGA to CVBS
2011-08-09 01:20 <wolfspraul> http://pinouts.ru/VideoCables/matrox_tvout_pinout.shtml
2011-08-09 01:20 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: ah, now I got it :-) we talk about different converters
2011-08-09 01:20 <wolfspraul> you want to first convert vga to cvbs, then feed that into a recorder
2011-08-09 01:21 <DocScrutinizer> yes
2011-08-09 01:21 <wolfspraul> ah no, you confused me too now
2011-08-09 01:21 <wolfspraul> that is what I am talking about :-)
2011-08-09 01:21 <wolfspraul> and it will not work on m1
2011-08-09 01:21 <wpwrak> (time-consuming) why ? having at least one video that looks good would already be a vast improvement.
2011-08-09 01:21 <wolfspraul> and it will not work on most vga, not if it's a 4$ passive part
2011-08-09 01:22 <wolfspraul> check the matrox url I just posted, this is what these adapters typically do
2011-08-09 01:22 <DocScrutinizer> 39.67$
2011-08-09 01:23 <wolfspraul> url?
2011-08-09 01:23 <DocScrutinizer> RCA-CVBS, SCART, VGA
2011-08-09 01:23 <DocScrutinizer> sorry, been some 9 months back when I looked at it
2011-08-09 01:23 <wolfspraul> he. pretty good price memory for 9 months back :-)
2011-08-09 01:23 <DocScrutinizer> maybe it was 29$ maybe 89$
2011-08-09 01:24 <DocScrutinizer> though I think it's been more like 29
2011-08-09 01:24 <wolfspraul> I know of two solutions right now
2011-08-09 01:24 <wolfspraul> a simple cable like the one on the url I just posted
2011-08-09 01:24 <wolfspraul> or the epiphan solution with some ics that grab/capture stuff and convert to digital
2011-08-09 01:24 <wolfspraul> there may be something in the middle that just goes to tv-out
2011-08-09 01:25 <wolfspraul> I will check with Sebastien, if such a 'more active' adapter it exists, it must do whatever the SoC is not doing right now
2011-08-09 01:26 <DocScrutinizer> it was actually amazingly cheap
2011-08-09 01:26 <wolfspraul> this will only allow us to go to analog tv-out though, not sure whether this results in a better recording in the end
2011-08-09 01:26 <wolfspraul> I find 30-80 USD quite expensive, must be some ICs inside
2011-08-09 01:26 <DocScrutinizer> I triple-checked it actually does framerate and sync freq conversion
2011-08-09 01:27 <DocScrutinizer> sure, it does a complete AD and DA and one frame or two frames buffering
2011-08-09 01:27 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: maybe one could post-process the camera recordings for more contrast or sharpness
2011-08-09 01:28 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: if you find it again or remember the name, let us know
2011-08-09 01:28 <wolfspraul> even though AD and then DA and then another AD is a bit depressing
2011-08-09 01:28 <wolfspraul> and I'm not sure whether the end result is any better than what we have now
2011-08-09 01:28 <wolfspraul> hey, the total would be DA -> AD -> DA -> AD
2011-08-09 01:30 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.amazon.de/Pc-TV-Konverter-Notebook-verbinden/dp/B001W0A9Z8/ref=sr_1_2/280-6890026-6099408?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de&qid=1312853353&sr=8-2
2011-08-09 01:31 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.amazon.de/VGA-HDMI-Konverter-Adapter-Wandler/dp/B002I9X5OY/ref=pd_cp_ce_3
2011-08-09 01:31 <kristianpaul> Artyom, yes, i'm aware of this behavior for STATUS and NEW_DATA, but i was wondering for example about the internal chx_prn_key_enable, how it is disabled..
2011-08-09 01:31 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.amazon.de/KanaaN-VGA-Composite-Video-Konverter/dp/B003U0PHC8/ref=pd_cp_ce_2
2011-08-09 01:35 <DocScrutinizer> probably you want the second linked one above then, only one time DA->AD -->HDMI
2011-08-09 01:36 <kristianpaul> Artyom, oh, wait a second i think i missundertood initialization after reset and initialization after every clk? (from line 276 in your vhdl gps baseband code)
2011-08-09 01:37 <DocScrutinizer> >>
2011-08-09 01:37 <DocScrutinizer> wandelt analoges VGA in digitales HDMI High Speed um
2011-08-09 01:37 <DocScrutinizer> erreicht Auflösungen bis 1080p, ist HDTV kompatibel, 5GBit/s
2011-08-09 01:37 <DocScrutinizer> EUR 35,75
2011-08-09 01:37 <kristianpaul> Artyom, wich actually differ a bit from the namuru upstream code i have...
2011-08-09 01:38 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: yes but we are trying to record. Maybe the other idea works, first vga -> tv-out, then tv-out -> usb
2011-08-09 01:38 <wolfspraul> both are cheap little things that I most likely can find in China for a few USD
2011-08-09 01:39 <kristianpaul> cant you record from s-video?
2011-08-09 01:39 <DocScrutinizer> err, you got no camera with HDMI input for recording? Or a graCa?
2011-08-09 01:40 <wolfspraul> no
2011-08-09 01:40 <DocScrutinizer> VDR
2011-08-09 01:46 <kristianpaul> Artyom, i think i got it now, you reset enables and new_data_read every clk, but i'm amazed this is not on my namuru verilog code, thats why i was thinking the only way was writing back to some registers..
2011-08-09 01:50 <kristianpaul> Artyom,  i mean i got upstream namuru code from here http://www.gmat.unsw.edu.au/namuru/logic/baseband_verilog.zip, same as you i guess?
2011-08-09 02:03 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: alright, xiangfu ordered both the vga->tv converter (15 USD), and a tv->usb grabber (18 USD)
2011-08-09 02:03 <wolfspraul> let's see whether it works and how good the quality is...
2011-08-09 02:05 <wolfspraul> thanks for the link, I got stuck at the expensive epiphany vga grabbers before... didn't think of the path through an active tv-out converter
2011-08-09 02:09 <DocScrutinizer> yw
2011-08-09 02:10 <DocScrutinizer> I searched a bit for recorders with HDMI-INput but couldn't find any
2011-08-09 02:11 <DocScrutinizer> for normal PAL/NTSC TV resolution the quality should be fine though
2011-08-09 02:13 <DocScrutinizer> just try to use component or SCART for the analog TV signal connection
2011-08-09 02:13 <DocScrutinizer> CVBS is probably the worst quality you can get on analog TV
2011-08-09 02:15 <DocScrutinizer> those small hosiden are also good quality signal allegedly, think the name is S-Video
2011-08-09 02:21 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: somehow I doubt that this whole conversion path will lead to better quality in the end, but we see
2011-08-09 02:21 <xiangfu> DocScrutinizer, ok. those two device have S-video 
2011-08-09 02:22 <wolfspraul> I just need something practical and cheap that works fast, because as important as having good videos is, it's even more important to advance the state of m1 so that m1 itself can produce higher-resolution output, can stream it, etc.
2011-08-09 02:23 <wolfspraul> unfortunately Google (for example) makes big press releases about 'open' WebM, but the openess stops right where the Verilog sources of their encoder start
2011-08-09 02:23 <wolfspraul> they probably mean open press release, or open marketing
2011-08-09 02:23 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
2011-08-09 02:24 <wolfspraul> at least Sebastien managed to extract an actual answer from them (that their sources are not open), he can consider himself privileged (others tried and only got silence back :-))
2011-08-09 02:24 <DocScrutinizer> you probably will want to test the VGA->TV converter with a real TV first, to make sure the quality is OKish until there
2011-08-09 02:25 <wolfspraul> xiangfu ordered both, 35 USD between them, in a few days we can see the results
2011-08-09 02:25 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-09 02:26 <wolfspraul> like I said, what we really need is encoding and streaming right on m1 itself, so like I said earlier - keep your eyes open for Verilog hackers :-)
2011-08-09 02:27 <DocScrutinizer> all days better than camera shots from a VGA display
2011-08-09 02:27 <wolfspraul> maybe there is something simpler than full theora/webm/dirac encoding, something that just streams unencoded over Ethernet?
2011-08-09 02:27 <wolfspraul> don't know
2011-08-09 02:28 <wolfspraul> the frame grabber should grab it right out of m1 memory :-)
2011-08-09 02:28 <DocScrutinizer> umm, don't think so
2011-08-09 02:28 <wolfspraul> not through all these external converters...
2011-08-09 02:29 <DocScrutinizer> hmmm yeah, sure
2011-08-09 02:29 <DocScrutinizer> first see what it yields, maybe you'll be surprised
2011-08-09 02:30 <wolfspraul> at 640x480, 16bpp and 24fps, we have about 14 megabytes of data per second
2011-08-09 02:31 <DocScrutinizer> honestly I don't get it why MM can't output at 50fps/16kHz rather than 32kHz VGA
2011-08-09 02:32 <DocScrutinizer> afaik VGA is TV RGB on double speed
2011-08-09 02:32 <DocScrutinizer> so reduce the clock to 1/2 and you should have fine component TV signal
2011-08-09 02:33 <DocScrutinizer> just made for SCART
2011-08-09 02:34 <DocScrutinizer> ok, you won't get interlace this way
2011-08-09 02:34 <DocScrutinizer> and that's also the difference to VGA
2011-08-09 02:35 <DocScrutinizer> VGA is basically "progressive" on double Hsync freq, or sth like that
2011-08-09 02:36 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, for the interlace you need a little trick to mark each other frame as odd one
2011-08-09 02:36 <DocScrutinizer> and your videobuffer scanning scheme is a bit weird
2011-08-09 02:37 <wolfspraul> this is all understood, and you are right
2011-08-09 02:37 <wolfspraul> it's 'not much' work, but it's work
2011-08-09 02:37 <DocScrutinizer> yup
2011-08-09 02:37 <wolfspraul> it's one thing to think it through and describe in irc, another to send a functioning Verilog diff
2011-08-09 02:37 <DocScrutinizer> Verilog :-)
2011-08-09 02:37 <wolfspraul> but of course your thoughts are very appreciated, you hit it exactly
2011-08-09 02:38 <wolfspraul> Sebastien said next time he cleans up/restructures the video subsystem, he'll add tv-out with it. that's the last I heard on this.
2011-08-09 02:38 <DocScrutinizer> you need somebody to hack interlace tag and videobifer scanning into verilog?
2011-08-09 02:38 <wolfspraul> it's not super urgent I agree, just a nice feature
2011-08-09 02:39 <DocScrutinizer> should be simple enough
2011-08-09 02:40 <DocScrutinizer> I think the odd-frame tag is a "half" line with a long hsync black shoulder
2011-08-09 02:42 <DocScrutinizer> so old analog TV would advance vertical sawtooth oscillator by one line, while scanning one line and flyback usually allows vertical to advance 2 lines during that period
2011-08-09 02:44 <DocScrutinizer> actually it's the vsync black shoulder that's extended by one half line duration
2011-08-09 02:45 <DocScrutinizer> I'll look it up
2011-08-09 02:48 <DocScrutinizer> yup, half line: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Balayage_entrelace_affichage_trames.svg/500px-Balayage_entrelace_affichage_trames.svg.png
2011-08-09 02:50 <DocScrutinizer> black shoulder for even frame starts and ends half a hsync phase earlier than that for odd frame
2011-08-09 02:51 <kristianpaul> (ethernet) cant achieve more than 512Kb/s last time i check
2011-08-09 02:51 <kristianpaul> because the lack of dma lekernel said
2011-08-09 03:03 <wpwrak> plan B would be the simulation route. if M1 has a fixed frame rate, it would be a matter of processing the audio stream, extracting the control (input to the gfx) information frame by frame from it, then individually rendering the frames, which qemu apparently already can do (render, i mean, not individual frames)
2011-08-09 03:11 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes, we looked at that too, but it's ... more work :-)
2011-08-09 03:11 <wolfspraul> how to feed audio to qemu, let alone camera...
2011-08-09 03:12 <wolfspraul> the best route is to make things work right inside m1
2011-08-09 03:12 <wolfspraul> and keep investments into workarounds to a minimum, because they all get deducted from m1 investments
2011-08-09 03:13 <wolfspraul> of course, I know, we need videos... just saying the emulation route was considered
2011-08-09 04:30 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: yeah, the more direct, the better :)
2011-08-09 06:51 <Artyom> kristianpaul: (from line 276 in your vhdl gps baseband code) - this was done because of difference in connection FPGA and MCU on my board. The idea of this code is to make pulse that lasts only one-clock-period for these signals. But I don't know whether this is correct implementation.
2011-08-09 07:05 <Artyom> kristianpaul: I have added both I/Q-channels because I would like in future to add GLONASS implementation (because it's C/A-code bandwidth is wider).
2011-08-09 07:07 <Artyom> kristianpaul: yes, I took namuru source-code from the same place.
2011-08-09 08:07 <xiangfu> DocScrutinizer. I just got the VGA-->Video converter. http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/tmp/video-in-itself.png 
2011-08-09 08:21 <xiangfu> video-in itself make performance interesting .
2011-08-09 08:45 <larsc> xiangfu: hehe :)
2011-08-09 09:03 <LunaFrizzle> Hi everyone !
2011-08-09 09:03 <LunaFrizzle> Hello xiangfu :)
2011-08-09 09:03 <xiangfu> LunaFrizzle, hi
2011-08-09 09:17 <wpwrak> xiangfu: oh. took me a while to realize what this screenshot is showing ;-) so this vga->video in converter will also be useful for recording demo videos, right ?
2011-08-09 09:18 <wpwrak> xiangfu: if yes, it looks pretty darn good :)
2011-08-09 09:18 <xiangfu> wpwrak, yes. but I still not get the usb-Video-grab device.
2011-08-09 09:18 <wpwrak> xiangfu: relax ;-)))
2011-08-09 09:19 <wpwrak> in any case, what your screenshot shows is the same as what such a device does, i.e., the same type of signal path. just that the destination is the M1 itself, not a PC
2011-08-09 09:21 <wpwrak> xiangfu: can you set a background image ("wallpaper") for the screen instead of just black ? something colorful ?
2011-08-09 09:21 <xiangfu> ye
2011-08-09 09:21 <xiangfu> yes
2011-08-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> pretty brave to plug the cable back into m1 itself :-)
2011-08-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> xiangfu has no fear
2011-08-09 09:22 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: it's a pretty clever idea :)
2011-08-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> mental stack overflow
2011-08-09 09:22 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: and see how well it seems to work !
2011-08-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> I'd be worried...
2011-08-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-09 09:23 <wpwrak> now, with a colorful background, we could also tell how well color information is preserved
2011-08-09 09:24 <xiangfu> wait one second
2011-08-09 09:25 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: what's also cool about this setup is that you can directly compare, side by side, the effect of 1-2 times going through the analog loop
2011-08-09 09:26 <wolfspraul> indeed
2011-08-09 09:26 <wolfspraul> it also has a feeling of time machine to it
2011-08-09 09:26 <wolfspraul> and electrons going in circle
2011-08-09 09:26 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think you already have your first item for the 09-01 news ;-)
2011-08-09 09:26 <wolfspraul> and now you want to be able to zoom in...
2011-08-09 09:26 <wolfspraul> can we catch up?
2011-08-09 09:26 <wpwrak> ;-))
2011-08-09 09:27 <DocScrutinizer> xiangfu: optical feedback - nice
2011-08-09 09:27 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: you see that your input gives a quick echo here... xiangfu already received the adapter you suggested a few hours ago...
2011-08-09 09:28 <wpwrak> i'm amazed by the speed of that as well
2011-08-09 09:29 <wpwrak> overnight delivery is so yesterday
2011-08-09 09:29 <DocScrutinizer> yes, and the feedback setup is a brilliant method to amplify any artifacts introduced by any part of the system
2011-08-09 09:29 <wolfspraul> in China it's not that unusual
2011-08-09 09:29 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: add "'s empire" :)
2011-08-09 09:29 <wolfspraul> keep in mind that most Chinese cities are big, Beijing alone is bigger than most smaller European countries
2011-08-09 09:30 <wolfspraul> so as long as you buy within your city, there's always a delivery option that will get stuff to you within 2 hours, if you want to (will cost more, but not much)
2011-08-09 09:30 <wolfspraul> then some kid will race through town on his bike to deliver your stuff :-)
2011-08-09 09:30 <wolfspraul> if you want to, that is (it will cost more)
2011-08-09 09:31 <wolfspraul> so xiangfu was lucky that that one vendor was in Beijing, the other one probably not, so that gets delivered a little slower
2011-08-09 09:31 <wpwrak> yeah, and in the US they prefer to have shops in states with a few customers as possible, to evade the sales tax. so there, shipments are generally non-trivial.
2011-08-09 09:31 <wolfspraul> if you are in shenzhen, you will have hardly heard about ANY electronic anything needing more than 2-3 hours to reach you, as long as you pay a few USD for a courier
2011-08-09 09:32 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: anyway you see there's not much loss on high frequencies (small structures smearing, edges fuzzy), and no change in hue and saturation
2011-08-09 09:32 <wolfspraul> well
2011-08-09 09:32 <wolfspraul> we are following your advice
2011-08-09 09:32 <wpwrak> i like that. this way, home delivery begins to make sense
2011-08-09 09:32 <wolfspraul> xiangfu's last round of videos was a step up (camera on tripod)
2011-08-09 09:32 <DocScrutinizer> even when running things three times thru the whole AD->-DA process
2011-08-09 09:33 <wolfspraul> and if this is yet another step up - great
2011-08-09 09:33 <wolfspraul> the 300+ USD vga grabbers looked wrong to me
2011-08-09 09:33 <wolfspraul> now we are down to 30 USD
2011-08-09 09:33 <wolfspraul> good
2011-08-09 09:33 <wpwrak> hehe :)
2011-08-09 09:33 <wolfspraul> if this works (we only have one half now), I'll buy a few more sets for people who want to help with tutorials and recordings
2011-08-09 09:34 <wolfspraul> but step by step
2011-08-09 09:35 <xiangfu> wpwrak, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/tmp/video-in-itself-1.png
2011-08-09 09:35 <xiangfu> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/tmp/video-in-itself-2.png
2011-08-09 09:35 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes it's nuts in shenzhen. I tried to do some rough math once and the value of components _IN STOCK_ within a maybe 1 mile radius of only one of the electronic shopping areas must be in the hundreds of millions of USD
2011-08-09 09:36 <wolfspraul> and within a range of about 50km, ca. 25% of the world's (!) consumer electronics are being manufactured, by tens of thousands of hungry smt machines hammering away
2011-08-09 09:37 <wolfspraul> those 2 numbers give you an idea of the scale, and why you can get pretty much anything delivered to your office in a few hours
2011-08-09 09:37 <wolfspraul> and quick and flexbile reaction is so important in any run...
2011-08-09 09:40 <xiangfu> the by-pass VGA out, have a little noise. but not much. the screenshot can show that.
2011-08-09 09:41 <LunaFrizzle> xiangfu, I'm having some troubles make-ing this exemple http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Compiling_for_the_NanoNote The other guys told me to ask you whenit came to SDL related problems
2011-08-09 09:42 <xiangfu> LunaFrizzle, ok. but I am not SDL expert. I think someone in the mailing list is SDL expert. :) what is your error?
2011-08-09 09:43 <LunaFrizzle> xiangfu, first off, to be sure the file have to be compiled on my computer or on the Nanonote (I got the same error anyway, probably a dumb error)
2011-08-09 09:44 <xiangfu> this device support PAL and NTSC
2011-08-09 09:44 <xiangfu> here is NTSC screenshot: (it show NTSM-MJ) is m1.
2011-08-09 09:44 <xiangfu> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/tmp/video-in-itself-NTSC-3.png
2011-08-09 09:45 <xiangfu> a little bigger then PAL in m1 [Video input preview]
2011-08-09 09:46 <xiangfu> LunaFrizzle, the 'main.c' cannot compiled? that is your compile commands? 
2011-08-09 09:47 <xiangfu> LunaFrizzle, oh. sorry. you also using the same Makefile in that wiki page?
2011-08-09 09:48 <wolfspraul> interesting
2011-08-09 09:48 <wolfspraul> ntsc fills out a larger part of the preview window
2011-08-09 09:48 <wolfspraul> now we can also easily test pal & ntsc :-)
2011-08-09 09:49 <wpwrak> LunaFrizzle: if you don't tell anyone what errors you get, i'm afraid this problem will haunt you for a very long time :)
2011-08-09 09:50 <LunaFrizzle> sorry xiangfu, wpwrak I'm first digging in myself to be sure I'm not waisting your time
2011-08-09 09:50 <wpwrak> yellow fades quickly but the other colors look quite decent, even in the second iteration.
2011-08-09 09:51 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: anyway the VGA->TV converter looks pretty decent, I'd think with a proper digitizer you shall get acceptable quality for any demo videos
2011-08-09 09:51 <wpwrak> LunaFrizzle: a request for help with the error message is likely to waste less time than one without ;) you know, it's that sherlock holmes thing :)
2011-08-09 09:51 <xiangfu> wolfspraul, it have a little shift at the bottom when NTSC
2011-08-09 09:52 <xiangfu> wolfspraul, in the Video-in-Preview.
2011-08-09 09:52 <wpwrak> NTSC also seems to "overshoot" at the bottom
2011-08-09 09:52 <xiangfu> maybe a bug.
2011-08-09 09:52 <wpwrak> probably :)
2011-08-09 09:53 <wpwrak> in any case, i think the days of lousy demo videos are counted ;-)
2011-08-09 09:53 <DocScrutinizer> isn't it amazing what you can get for some 13$? :-D
2011-08-09 09:55 <xiangfu> oh. one more device? 
2011-08-09 09:58 <xiangfu> NTSC video-in preview is not shift, it like http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/tmp/video-in-itself-NTSC-4.png
2011-08-09 09:58 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: by the way, what do the pros use if they want to power a little uC circuit from mains ? constraints: voltage 3.3 V, about 50 mA max, long-term average (> 1 min) very low, has a triac to switch mains (it's mainly a lamp control), circuit should be simple and should use as little volume as possible (needs to share the box in which the light switch normally lives with all the cables and stuff)
2011-08-09 09:59 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: things i've considered: resistive divider, capacitative divider, transformer
2011-08-09 09:59 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: i can't seem to find transformers that are really small. the smalles one is still some 6 ccm
2011-08-09 10:00 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: also, since i have the triac, i'm likely to be galvanically coupled to mains anyway (unless i use an opto-isolated one, but these have other undesirable properties)
2011-08-09 10:00 <DocScrutinizer> capacitive divider usually
2011-08-09 10:01 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: great. that was the approach that looked the most promising
2011-08-09 10:02 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: i wonder if it would be a good idea to toss in a switching DC-DC regulator and convert a relatively high input voltage (maybe 12-24 V) down to the 3.3 V I need, to keep the current on the high-voltage side low ?
2011-08-09 10:16 <DocScrutinizer> nah
2011-08-09 10:16 <DocScrutinizer> 50mA is a lot though
2011-08-09 10:17 <DocScrutinizer> those capacitive dividers are feasible for up to maybe 5mA
2011-08-09 10:17 <DocScrutinizer> if those 50mA are not spikes you can buffer in a 1000uF, you probably *will* need a trafo
2011-08-09 10:19 <DocScrutinizer> or a special solid state converter: there is at least one IC that can (switch?)regulate down from 300V input to 1digit volts output, but I think it also doesn't do 50mA
2011-08-09 10:21 <DocScrutinizer> complete SPSU modules should be available as well
2011-08-09 10:21 <DocScrutinizer> so not 24V->3V3 but rather 300V->3V3
2011-08-09 10:22 <DocScrutinizer> BOM is almost identical ;-D
2011-08-09 10:25 <wpwrak> hmm, i haven't found any regulator rated for such high voltages
2011-08-09 10:26 <wpwrak> also, how big are those modules ? remember, i just have a few ccm
2011-08-09 10:28 <wpwrak> (spsu module) are you thinking of something like this ? http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=285-1336-ND
2011-08-09 10:28 <wpwrak> waaay too big
2011-08-09 10:29 <wpwrak> about 1/10th the volume may be be acceptable, but just barely
2011-08-09 10:30 <stefan_schmidt> sits at the cccamp and is watching daniel and jan to get the GSm up and running
2011-08-09 10:31 <wpwrak> i have about 9 x 5 x 4 cm inside these boxes. and that's shared with all the cables going in and out
2011-08-09 10:32 <wpwrak> stefan_schmidt: there's hardly any other thing in life as satisfying as watching other people work, while sitting back, relaxing, and enjoying a cool beer, right ;-)
2011-08-09 10:33 <stefan_schmidt> wpwrak: heh
2011-08-09 10:33 <stefan_schmidt> wpwrak: actually I help as well
2011-08-09 10:34 <stefan_schmidt> wpwrak: But a cold beer would not be that bad
2011-08-09 10:34 <stefan_schmidt> wpwrak: Harald still have some small 5l kegs around...
2011-08-09 10:36 <wpwrak> just the right quantity to wash down the breakfast
2011-08-09 10:49 <LunaFrizzle> ok I got my problem
2011-08-09 10:49 <LunaFrizzle> I compiled the toolchain following the wiki's intruction
2011-08-09 10:49 <LunaFrizzle> but
2011-08-09 10:50 <LunaFrizzle> it doesn't compile the bin in the staging_dir/toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.3.3+cs_uClibc-0.9.30.1/usr/ folder
2011-08-09 10:50 <LunaFrizzle> I don't know what I got wrong
2011-08-09 10:52 <kyak> it's in staging_dir/toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.3.3+cs_uClibc-0.9.30.1/bin
2011-08-09 11:00 <LunaFrizzle> there's no such folder either kilae 
2011-08-09 11:00 <LunaFrizzle> I mean kyak 
2011-08-09 13:01 <LunaFrizzle> xiangfu is gone but here is my problem
2011-08-09 13:01 <LunaFrizzle> http://pastebin.com/MrBVHVXQ
2011-08-09 13:01 <LunaFrizzle> I donwloaded the toolkit from here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/Ben_NanoNote_2GB_NAND/latest/
2011-08-09 14:13 <kyak> LunaFrizzle: can you post your Makefile and program you are trying to build with SDK?
2011-08-09 14:46 <LunaFrizzle> kyak, here it is >>> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Compiling_for_the_NanoNote
2011-08-09 16:03 <LunaFrizzle> kyak, so ? no idea ?
2011-08-09 16:32 <kyak> LunaFrizzle: ah, can't reproduce it, the SDK is for x86_64
2011-08-09 16:32 <kyak> the article is plain wrong imho
2011-08-09 16:33 <kyak> using regular Makefiles to compile with openwrt toolchain? That's weird. Why not use openwrt SDK/buildroot as intended?
2011-08-09 16:33 <kyak> i'd suggest you to have a look at some examples of SDL programs in openwrt-packages, like nightsky
2011-08-09 16:49 <qi-bot> The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08082011-1458/
2011-08-09 17:45 <wpwrak> kyak: for me, regular makefiles work quite well for cross-compiling basic things with openwrt (not SDL).
2011-08-09 17:46 <wpwrak> kyak: if the unfortunate split between gcc and the libraries hierarchy didn't exist, also SDL wouldn't be a problem
2011-08-09 17:46 <wpwrak> kyak: (what i did was simply symlink all the binaries to /usr/local/bin. gcc remembers its "true home", so it goes back there to look for things)
2011-08-09 17:49 <kyak> wpwrak: for me, openwrt Makefiles work quite well, without further remarks :)
2011-08-09 18:07 <wpwrak> yeah, but it'snot so nice if you have to modify your makefiles a lot for openwrt. it's a bit like as if Debian and Red Hat would need different Makefiles ...