2011-08-07 00:35 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: how do you measure that the 'acceptance of NanoNote is low'?
2011-08-07 00:36 <wolfspraul> if I wouldn't be too lazy, I would look up all the hundreds of ways Steve Jobs ridiculed 'market share' over the years
2011-08-07 00:36 <wolfspraul> the goal was to sell 3000 (no real time frame), we sold 1200-1300 so far.
2011-08-07 00:36 <wolfspraul> oops
2011-08-07 00:37 <wolfspraul> it is correct that the sales and marketing activity has hit a bump, but I find that a very interesting challenge
2011-08-07 00:37 <wolfspraul> at least a good challenge for me, I need to find and build alternative sales and marketing channels
2011-08-07 00:38 <wolfspraul> in your world view, if the NanoNote had sold 5000 units to date, would you also say 'acceptance is low'?
2011-08-07 00:38 <wolfspraul> I think the key challenge for copyleft harwdare is to build strong sales and marketing channels.
2011-08-07 00:38 <wolfspraul> not lost interest in Ingenic at all, why?
2011-08-07 00:39 <wolfspraul> we hat a lot of strange judging from the armchair again :-)
2011-08-07 00:40 <wolfspraul> I will probably demand 100k USD or 200k USD from Ingenic to sponsor the next Ingenic product, and they may very well never pay that. But that's their problem :-) I'm super 'interested' in their sponsorship :-)
2011-08-07 00:41 <wolfspraul> just saying what's going through my mind lately
2011-08-07 00:41 <wolfspraul> for mechanical, there are many ways that are at the same time:
2011-08-07 00:41 <wolfspraul> a) very professional and modern looking, very innovative (on whatever angle)
2011-08-07 00:41 <wolfspraul> b) well suited for low volume (will always be important for copyleft hardware, even if we have some high volume products)
2011-08-07 00:41 <wolfspraul> c) cheap
2011-08-07 00:42 <wolfspraul> that's the combination we need to find
2011-08-07 00:42 <wolfspraul> I would argue that what we have for m1 does quite well, on b) especially. c) can be worked on. a) is debatable but most people who see the case truly like it. I think it's a winner.
2011-08-07 00:43 <wolfspraul> there may be other mechanical approaches that satisfy a) b) and c), for example milling aluminum
2011-08-07 00:43 <wolfspraul> we just need to experiment more, as we did with m1
2011-08-07 00:44 <wolfspraul> simply looking at some random 'industry price lists' with high price tags doesn't get us any further I think. My goal is to make great cases that satisfy a) b) and c), at the same time.
2011-08-07 00:46 <wolfspraul> this has a few nice pics http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/10/14/apple_details_new_macbook_manufacturing_process.html
2011-08-07 00:49 <wolfspraul> sounds like sie is going into a direction of simple breakout board
2011-08-07 00:49 <wolfspraul> the biggest weakness of their entire approach is on the software side
2011-08-07 00:49 <wolfspraul> basically they are incapable of even the smallest software development
2011-08-07 00:50 <wolfspraul> that means they can only make boards that work with the vendor BSP as they get it
2011-08-07 00:50 <wolfspraul> and the vendor BSP may or may not go upstream, in most cases it won't (at least not in its original form, and after it has been modified they won't be able to get the upstream version to run on their board again)
2011-08-07 00:50 <wolfspraul> I tried to bridge this but failed.
2011-08-07 00:51 <wolfspraul> I am not interested in random boards being manually soldered together to work with a vendor BSP for a while. At least for them it doesn't matter how long the boards work because they will break soon, the students think at most in categories of 1 year, then they throw their project away as well.
2011-08-07 00:52 <wolfspraul> the shortcomings kristianpaul found with his SIE will surely never be fixed :-)
2011-08-07 00:52 <wolfspraul> that's not my approach at all, it's not how I think you can build products or a brand
2011-08-07 00:52 <wolfspraul> sparkfun has tons of interesting boards then, far better than the current board they soldered together
2011-08-07 00:53 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: sorry that the SIE I sold you is a dead-end product
2011-08-07 00:53 <wolfspraul> I really hate that normally, but that was the choice of the designers and I am unable to correct it. An expensive lesson for me to learn "don't try to help academia" :-)
2011-08-07 00:54 <wolfspraul> should not have done it, would have saved me 10-20k USD and one dead-end development less in my history
2011-08-07 00:57 <kristianpaul> dead, no pronlem :) also you dint sold it actually i remenber... some expenses were shared actually
2011-08-07 00:58 <wolfspraul> oh you got one of Carlos early prototypes?
2011-08-07 00:58 <wolfspraul> the main failure with SIE is that bugs are not fixed
2011-08-07 00:58 <wolfspraul> that's where a company and a project part ways, imho
2011-08-07 00:59 <wolfspraul> bugs have to be fixed, next version improves. combine this with smart marketing and you may build a business.
2011-08-07 00:59 <wolfspraul> but this is different. bugs are just ignored, removed, argued away. not good.
2011-08-07 01:00 <wolfspraul> of course they actually just need boards for students to play with, so if you think about their needs, it all makes sense
2011-08-07 01:01 <wolfspraul> they are perfectly fine with boards that are buggy, break apart after a few months. 99% of the students will throw away their project and any related material (such as a board) on the same day they get the exam back that concludes that segment of their studies
2011-08-07 01:01 <kristianpaul> no no, run 3 i think..
2011-08-07 01:01 <wolfspraul> so for m1, what I like is how we improve everywhere, constantly. that needs to continue. I am already tring to max out what I can improve for rc4 :-)
2011-08-07 01:02 <wolfspraul> I wish we could throw more resources at improvements, but it depends on sales revenue, that's ok.
2011-08-07 01:02 <kristianpaul> roh: (apppleinsider) i think we found a nice aplication for your CNC ;)
2011-08-07 01:03 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: can you still build new software for your sie?
2011-08-07 01:03 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: abosultelly
2011-08-07 01:04 <kristianpaul> acutally i think i'll find a case for it and use it as signal generator
2011-08-07 01:04 <wolfspraul> which build environment do you use? (openwrt?) which kernel?
2011-08-07 01:04 <kristianpaul> openwrt same as nanonote
2011-08-07 01:04 <kristianpaul> it jsut works
2011-08-07 01:04 <wolfspraul> are there any patches we could feed back?
2011-08-07 01:04 <wolfspraul> ok that's good to hear!
2011-08-07 01:04 <kristianpaul> well, i dont have i2c and have to disable keyboard
2011-08-07 01:04 <wolfspraul> definitely give us feedback if something breaks
2011-08-07 01:04 <kristianpaul> haha ok
2011-08-07 01:05 <wolfspraul> well that's what I care about. software power.
2011-08-07 01:05 <kristianpaul> patches, yes, dont carlos buged you with patches before leave the list? ;-)
2011-08-07 01:05 <kristianpaul> i think zrafa was working on i2c driver, not sure
2011-08-07 01:05 <wolfspraul> some patches I saw were of such crazy quality that I don't think anybody cleaned them up yet
2011-08-07 01:05 <kristianpaul> hehe sure
2011-08-07 01:05 <wolfspraul> I mean those are not 'patches' really
2011-08-07 01:05 <kristianpaul> lol
2011-08-07 01:05 <kristianpaul> ok
2011-08-07 01:05 <wolfspraul> you can also uuencode a binary that you got to run somehow :-)
2011-08-07 01:06 <wolfspraul> I was thinking about the price of m1 recently, and how we can bring it down.
2011-08-07 01:06 <kristianpaul> please :)
2011-08-07 01:07 <wolfspraul> I don't think I can touch the 499 USD price of the current product, it just has all these expensive things in it that add up.
2011-08-07 01:07 <wolfspraul> and if I remove them I make it much less valuable for a non-technical user
2011-08-07 01:07 <wolfspraul> so I thought maybe we make a new board, just the bare chips on it that will still allow you to reuse (and develop) 90+% of the software
2011-08-07 01:08 <wolfspraul> no case, lots of ios, maybe geared towards dsp or rf as well. Sebastien mentioned some ideas at some time, but I need to ping his brain more.
2011-08-07 01:08 <wolfspraul> no accessories, no keyboard, remote, camera, anything.
2011-08-07 01:08 <wolfspraul> just price down
2011-08-07 01:09 <wolfspraul> and still achieve full software compatibility with m1 the video synthesizer (with all its bells and whistles making it hard to go below 499 usd fast)
2011-08-07 01:09 <wolfspraul> just thinking
2011-08-07 01:09 <kristianpaul> bare chips still the expensives ones, if i recal correctly chips related to very specific VJ stuff are not that expensive
2011-08-07 01:09 <rjeffr> wolfspraul that is an interesting approach
2011-08-07 01:09 <wolfspraul> maybe something like xue
2011-08-07 01:09 <kristianpaul> or i'm wrong?
2011-08-07 01:09 <wolfspraul> well of course we would leave the fpga, nor, ddr ram, etc.
2011-08-07 01:10 <wolfspraul> but what is the point of the board?
2011-08-07 01:10 <wolfspraul> 1) low price, shave off every USD we can
2011-08-07 01:10 <wolfspraul> no accessories, not even a power supply maybe
2011-08-07 01:10 <akiwiguy> a reasonably cheap hacking platform?
2011-08-07 01:10 <kristianpaul> it seems
2011-08-07 01:10 <rjeffries> depned on what price point you can hit
2011-08-07 01:10 <wolfspraul> 2) stay 100% compatible with the m1, that's the key to get you into a position where you have a strong environment around you, rather than getting stuck in a moon landscape
2011-08-07 01:11 <kristianpaul> not vey specific, but i wonder if some people prefer something with unlimited posibilites or a specific turnkey product
2011-08-07 01:11 <wolfspraul> 3) open the door for some future Milkymist products, by means of expansion header, ios, etc.
2011-08-07 01:11 <rjeffries> wolfspraul some of your cost are ports that only are interesting for vjay use case
2011-08-07 01:11 <akiwiguy> i prefer something that i can do a lot of things with personally, even if it takes a bit of work to set up
2011-08-07 01:11 <kristianpaul> please please dont forget add at least two dedicated pins for clock in the next expansion header if posible !!!
2011-08-07 01:12 <akiwiguy> rather than a solution that just works but only does a few things
2011-08-07 01:12 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: no worries, your advice will be taken, guaranteed
2011-08-07 01:12 <rjeffries> before you do this you need to figure out who will make USB work as a general USB and IMO make the 8:10 port usable and acessible from the edge of the board
2011-08-07 01:12 <wolfspraul> akiwiguy: of course that's what we all work towards with our crazy investments into 'upstream' and keep it all easily buildable from source etc.
2011-08-07 01:13 <akiwiguy> yeah
2011-08-07 01:13 <rjeffries> but removing the items you mention does not rip out a lot of cost does it?
2011-08-07 01:13 <wolfspraul> I think about use case
2011-08-07 01:13 <wolfspraul> and it adds up
2011-08-07 01:13 <rjeffries> keyboard is $5 camera is maybe $25 p/w is another $5 max
2011-08-07 01:14 <wolfspraul> the product I am making now works for non-technical users
2011-08-07 01:14 <akiwiguy> i think, if you had a board with just the FPGA and necessary stuff
2011-08-07 01:14 <akiwiguy> with no extras
2011-08-07 01:14 <wolfspraul> I can whole-heartedly recommend it to any non-technical user because all they need is in the box.
2011-08-07 01:14 <akiwiguy> and expansion headers for people to hack up addons for it to make it do what they want
2011-08-07 01:14 <wolfspraul> akiwiguy: well there are tons of boards, and we easily end up in the arena of subsidized marketing boards
2011-08-07 01:14 <rjeffries> ok. but if you can only hit $399 selling price with adequate margin to keep your children fed, the market is prolly still quite limited
2011-08-07 01:14 <akiwiguy> you'd sell heaps of them
2011-08-07 01:15 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: you and your market :-) I do enjoy it with coffee though :-)
2011-08-07 01:15 <wolfspraul> akiwiguy: no, would not. you can try though :-)
2011-08-07 01:15 <akiwiguy> but there isnt much with the same amount of power of the Milkymist SoC
2011-08-07 01:15 <rjeffries> akiwiguy be careful. not sure I see "heapsOf users who wnat an FPGA computer
2011-08-07 01:15 <akiwiguy> i mean
2011-08-07 01:15 <wolfspraul> the devil, and all value, is only in the details
2011-08-07 01:16 <akiwiguy> when the Linux kernel is running well on Milkymist
2011-08-07 01:16 <rjeffries> wolfspraul I sometimes wonder what you are thinking. by the way you said market you meant margin
2011-08-07 01:16 <wolfspraul> that's why a discussion of people who are just guessing is worthless
2011-08-07 01:16 <kristianpaul> rjeffries: (USB) it could, just we need a proper OHCI implementation, any volunteering around it? :-)
2011-08-07 01:16 <akiwiguy> it would be a great hacking platform for us Linux guys
2011-08-07 01:16 <wolfspraul> zoom in, try it out, and find out about the hidden elephant
2011-08-07 01:16 <rjeffries> you know very well that ther emust be a delta between what it costs you to build and what people pay you
2011-08-07 01:16 <akiwiguy> and the ability to just reflash your entire processor is a bonus xD
2011-08-07 01:16 <wolfspraul> akiwiguy: do you still want to buy your NanoNote?
2011-08-07 01:16 <rjeffries> kristianpaul you know damnd well I am not a coder. 
2011-08-07 01:17 <akiwiguy> of course I od
2011-08-07 01:17 <akiwiguy> do*
2011-08-07 01:17 <wolfspraul> great!
2011-08-07 01:17 <akiwiguy> just no money :/
2011-08-07 01:17 <wolfspraul> oops
2011-08-07 01:17 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 01:17 <akiwiguy> xD
2011-08-07 01:17 <kristianpaul> rjeffries: but you seems good with social skill, you can catch a developer in the wild :)
2011-08-07 01:17 <akiwiguy> my dad wants me to write some printing software for him in VB.net
2011-08-07 01:17 <akiwiguy> and if I do that I get $100nzd
2011-08-07 01:17 <wolfspraul> that's a start
2011-08-07 01:17 <rjeffries> one never knows, does one
2011-08-07 01:17 <akiwiguy> but ewww visual basic is horrible
2011-08-07 01:18 <wolfspraul> do it, you learn about real customer needs
2011-08-07 01:18 <wolfspraul> yep
2011-08-07 01:18 <wolfspraul> REAL CUSTOMER NEEDS
2011-08-07 01:18 <rjeffries> visual nbasic is just another language
2011-08-07 01:18 <rjeffries> no biggie
2011-08-07 01:18 <wolfspraul> some people never get there, but it's actually a rewarding experience
2011-08-07 01:18 <wolfspraul> they do have strange priorities, I can tell you :-)
2011-08-07 01:18 <rjeffries> actaully it is reasonably powerful. no my cuppa, but nothing to sneer about
2011-08-07 01:18 <akiwiguy> i have had a look at it, and trying to get printing to work in it will be hell
2011-08-07 01:18 <akiwiguy> I use VB a lot myself
2011-08-07 01:18 <wolfspraul> my first job was similar, a summer job to work on a melanoma (skin cancer) database for a doctor
2011-08-07 01:19 <wolfspraul> got 100 deutschmark for 3 months work
2011-08-07 01:19 <akiwiguy> when i have to write something fast
2011-08-07 01:19 <akiwiguy> but it's not a very nice language
2011-08-07 01:19 <kristianpaul> thats important akiwiguy (customer needs)m we tend to dream and dream, and inpose our desires on sofyware and forgot that we MUST solve a need
2011-08-07 01:19 <wolfspraul> serve your customer, make him happy
2011-08-07 01:19 <akiwiguy> worse than Java, IMO
2011-08-07 01:19 <wolfspraul> then sell him the upgrade to the language you prefer :-)
2011-08-07 01:19 <wolfspraul> (it's your dad here, but the point is always the same)
2011-08-07 01:19 <kristianpaul> :D
2011-08-07 01:19 <akiwiguy> Yeah...
2011-08-07 01:19 <rjeffries> screw it code it in VB and take the money and then do what you like
2011-08-07 01:20 <akiwiguy> yeah
2011-08-07 01:20 <akiwiguy> but it'll be a lot of work
2011-08-07 01:20 <akiwiguy> because there are no printer libraries
2011-08-07 01:21 <akiwiguy> i cant just tell it to print this on this position on the page
2011-08-07 01:21 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: (xue) when you said that you mean formfactor/pinout and also the imaging part?
2011-08-07 01:21 <wolfspraul> probably not
2011-08-07 01:21 <wolfspraul> I really don't know
2011-08-07 01:21 <akiwiguy> if i could do that the code would have been done last month xD
2011-08-07 01:21 <wolfspraul> maybe we can make a list of 'things' one could theoretically hookup to Milkymist
2011-08-07 01:21 <wolfspraul> it would be long though
2011-08-07 01:21 <wolfspraul> then we see that we can make a board that keeps the path to those 'things' open
2011-08-07 01:22 <kristianpaul> well if there is free pinout :)
2011-08-07 01:22 <wolfspraul> image sensor would be one of them, surely
2011-08-07 01:22 <wolfspraul> one of many though
2011-08-07 01:22 <wolfspraul> I am just thinking now, I can easily spend a lot more energy into m1.
2011-08-07 01:22 <wolfspraul> and improve it
2011-08-07 01:23 <wolfspraul> but if we want to build a crazy cheap hacker board, that won't work because it conflicts with some needs (and valuations) of non-technical users that buy m1
2011-08-07 01:23 <kristianpaul> MMU ;-) ?
2011-08-07 01:23 <wolfspraul> that's a software feature
2011-08-07 01:23 <wolfspraul> if we build a milkymist hacker board, its value can only come from the milkymist software stack running on it, imho
2011-08-07 01:23 <rjeffries> until someone adds MMU MM is not a viable Linux platform. period. nevermind that lekernel is not interetsed
2011-08-07 01:24 <wolfspraul> "viable Linux platform"
2011-08-07 01:24 <kristianpaul> :-)
2011-08-07 01:24 <wolfspraul> let's just say you don't like it without mmu
2011-08-07 01:24 <wolfspraul> but you would never buy one anyway, so why care? :-)
2011-08-07 01:25 <kristianpaul> is getting good shape rjeffries , you can run uclinuc, you can have a toolchain easilly, not bad
2011-08-07 01:25 <kristianpaul> also openwrt is a strong basis it seems
2011-08-07 01:25 <wolfspraul> also improvements in gcc (c++) or llvm badly needed
2011-08-07 01:25 <wolfspraul> dynamic linking
2011-08-07 01:25 <rjeffries> kristianpaul for teh true belivers yes. but the lack of MMU will lead to any number of randowm crashes. this is not rocket science
2011-08-07 01:25 <wolfspraul> but one by one, progress is really good lately
2011-08-07 01:26 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: how often is your m1 crashing?
2011-08-07 01:26 <kristianpaul> rjeffries: buy it , use it, crash it and complaing with us later :-)
2011-08-07 01:26 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: not often
2011-08-07 01:26 <wolfspraul> which root causes do you suspect?
2011-08-07 01:27 <rjeffries> that is notr the relevant question wolfspraul, and you know that. MM1 is running a very constraind set of apps. with linux you run all sorts of weird stuff, some of it with well hidden bugs
2011-08-07 01:27 <kristianpaul> he, well in my case i had been the resposible for some crahses in part, as my HDL coding techniques are improving :)
2011-08-07 01:27 <rjeffries> and you know I am not complaining. I am pointing to facts. 
2011-08-07 01:28 <wolfspraul> "no mmu" is a fact. "not a viable Linux platform" is not a fact.
2011-08-07 01:28 <wolfspraul> I estimate 80% of what you say is not a fact, but opinions built upon facts.
2011-08-07 01:28 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: also i cant tell to much as i just run too very basic rtems stuff, flickernoise annd rendreing is a unknow world for me 
2011-08-07 01:29 <wolfspraul> but it's your good right to have opinions, of course...
2011-08-07 01:30 <rjeffries> wolfspraul should one assume all of your opinions are facts? ;)
2011-08-07 01:30 <kristianpaul> also i think all those suposed crashed, are not well handled expenscion from the cpu, wishbone... you can wonder all the empties around that :)
2011-08-07 01:30 <rjeffries> you will get to find out if an FPGA based realtively expensive linux platform finds enough customers
2011-08-07 01:30 <rjeffries> anyway, enough of this.
2011-08-07 01:31 <akiwiguy> I just had an idea.
2011-08-07 01:31 <wolfspraul> you forgot "not viable" in there
2011-08-07 01:31 <wolfspraul> "relatively expensive not viable linux platform"
2011-08-07 01:31 <wolfspraul> I do enjoy my coffee today
2011-08-07 01:31 <akiwiguy> When Milkymist can run Linux well enough, why not a "netbook" type device, like a larger NanoNote, with the Milkymist SoC?
2011-08-07 01:31 <wolfspraul> Yunnan, yummie :-)
2011-08-07 01:32 <akiwiguy> I would certainly buy one.
2011-08-07 01:32 <wolfspraul> what kind of use case do you want on a netbook?
2011-08-07 01:32 <akiwiguy> Web browsing, word processing, video playback
2011-08-07 01:33 <wolfspraul> so the problem is most people want high performance
2011-08-07 01:33 <wolfspraul> even when you say 'word processing', mayby you want to embed pictures from your camera?
2011-08-07 01:33 <kristianpaul> lynx, vi and mplayer ;) (on busybox ;-D)
2011-08-07 01:33 <wolfspraul> those pictures can be 10mb big?
2011-08-07 01:33 <akiwiguy> i dont have a camera xD
2011-08-07 01:33 <wolfspraul> you want to 'quickly' adjust contrast & brightness, or do other 'auto' picture manipulation
2011-08-07 01:33 <wolfspraul> well I'm just saying
2011-08-07 01:33 <wolfspraul> many things are possible
2011-08-07 01:33 <akiwiguy> yeah, i get what you mean
2011-08-07 01:33 <wolfspraul> I don't understand the netbook use case, so I'm asking.
2011-08-07 01:34 <wolfspraul> on my notebook, I want power
2011-08-07 01:34 <wolfspraul> memory, cpu
2011-08-07 01:34 <wolfspraul> cannot get enough
2011-08-07 01:34 <wolfspraul> I want to be able to work with images and videos faster.
2011-08-07 01:34 <wolfspraul> even presentations/talks
2011-08-07 01:34 <wolfspraul> the NanoNote on the other hand is a pocket computer
2011-08-07 01:34 <larsc> and you want the battery to last longer than 10 minutes ;)
2011-08-07 01:35 <wolfspraul> I don't need high-performance, since i would simply move those things to my notebook.
2011-08-07 01:35 <akiwiguy> All I use my netbook for is web browsing, word processing, video and audio playback and ssh
2011-08-07 01:35 <wolfspraul> so I can move all sorts of small interesting computing tasks to the nanonote.
2011-08-07 01:35 <kristianpaul> (battery) oh please :)
2011-08-07 01:35 <kristianpaul> want a netbook with that qi pixel display :-)
2011-08-07 01:36 <akiwiguy> My current netbook has a standard lcd and I can read it in the sun fine xD
2011-08-07 01:36 <akiwiguy> I walk around with this thing at school all say doing all my class work on it
2011-08-07 01:36 <akiwiguy> and I am quite often outside in the sun working on it
2011-08-07 01:37 <rjeffries> kristianpaul for wahtever reasons, that interesting qi-pixek display seems to still not be designed in to anything significant. I do not know why.
2011-08-07 01:37 <akiwiguy> personally i see no need for an e-ink display or anything similar when existing already in use tech works fine
2011-08-07 01:37 <kristianpaul> rjeffries: well, i worth that my battery will long last
2011-08-07 01:38 <rjeffries> I carry a decentt little smartphone (not iPhone) with a 4-in. display. it has a nice slide out keyboard, nice screen. it works.
2011-08-07 01:38 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: maybe that is because their strategy is to come out with outlandish announcements and vaporware to attract (more) investors?
2011-08-07 01:38 <rjeffries> akiwiguy with e.g. eink monochrome display one gets two weeks on one battery charge for a book reader e,g, Kindle
2011-08-07 01:39 <akiwiguy> Yeah...
2011-08-07 01:39 <akiwiguy> For stuff like an ebook reader, then an e-ink is good.
2011-08-07 01:39 <wolfspraul> akiwiguy: yes, screens are getting much better recently in terms of sunlight readability. I need to compare some...
2011-08-07 01:39 <rjeffries> wolfspraul? well, I paid $149 with my carrier. the little company who made my device is called Motorola. You may have heard of them.
2011-08-07 01:39 <kristianpaul> milkymist ebook? :)
2011-08-07 01:40 <akiwiguy> For a netbook or similar, there's no point because you can't refresh them very fast
2011-08-07 01:40 <rjeffries> kristianpaul you are cracking me up
2011-08-07 01:40 <akiwiguy> and they'd be useless for anything but reading
2011-08-07 01:40 <kristianpaul> rjeffries: hahah ;)
2011-08-07 01:40 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: I meant the "interesting qi-pixel display"
2011-08-07 01:40 <rjeffries> akiwiguy google qi pixel display  thay have solved those problems in an elegant fashion
2011-08-07 01:40 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 01:40 <wolfspraul> you are double cracking me up
2011-08-07 01:41 <wolfspraul> didn't you just say above that "the interesting qi-pixel display seems to still not be designed in to anything significant"
2011-08-07 01:41 <rjeffries> i am so totally lost
2011-08-07 01:41 <wolfspraul> and then you recommend to google it because they have "solved those problems in an elegant fashion"?
2011-08-07 01:41 <wolfspraul> maybe you pick one of your two arguments?
2011-08-07 01:41 <rjeffries> it has not found its market. I do not know why. maybe you do. the gal behind it is a very smart puppy an dthe technolgy is good
2011-08-07 01:42 <rjeffries> wolfspraul the technology works and works well, it has not been commercialized sucessful. ok
2011-08-07 01:42 <wolfspraul> you probably never met Mary-Lou, and it sounds like you never used one of their 'good' technology either? then how do you know it's good?
2011-08-07 01:42 <wolfspraul> have you used one of those super screens?
2011-08-07 01:42 <akiwiguy> their website is not loading
2011-08-07 01:42 <rjeffries> wolfspraul people I trust have
2011-08-07 01:43 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: so you have not
2011-08-07 01:43 <wolfspraul> that seems to be a fact
2011-08-07 01:43 <akiwiguy> i'm getting a blank page
2011-08-07 01:43 <akiwiguy> and the wikipedia page is unhelpful
2011-08-07 01:43 <wolfspraul> akiwiguy: it's vaporware. one word is enough.
2011-08-07 01:44 <akiwiguy> heh
2011-08-07 01:44 <wolfspraul> if seems your netbook maker has "solved this problem in an elegant fashion"
2011-08-07 01:44 <rjeffries> i was wrong. Notion Ink does use it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi
2011-08-07 01:44 <wolfspraul> which is great!
2011-08-07 01:44 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: I won't ask whether you bought and tried a Notion Ink yet...
2011-08-07 01:45 <wolfspraul> it's amazing how much money you can make fooling naive investors though, I have to say
2011-08-07 01:45 <rjeffries> wolfspraul you have a style that is different than mine
2011-08-07 01:45 <wolfspraul> there's always someone who wants to believe
2011-08-07 01:45 <rjeffries> let's agree we do not think the same and leave it at that. ;)
2011-08-07 01:45 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: yes indeed. very different. unfortunately in the computer industry many companies work with announcements, in different ways.
2011-08-07 01:45 <wolfspraul> sometimes to asses demand
2011-08-07 01:46 <wolfspraul> sometimes to fool investors (ah, to get them to invest to then hopefully make that announcement dream come true)
2011-08-07 01:46 <wolfspraul> oh definitely, please! Not the same, yes.
2011-08-07 01:46 <rjeffries> you are  asmart guy. I respect that. You offer some very sage opinions, but also get out in the weeds
2011-08-07 01:46 <wolfspraul> just I thought you like facts so much
2011-08-07 01:47 <wolfspraul> so the fact is that you never used a pixel qi screen yourself yet you are saying it is 'good technology' and 'solved a problem in an elegant fashion'
2011-08-07 01:47 <kristianpaul> goes for a nice evening Tea
2011-08-07 01:47 <rjeffries> you can drop the condescending attitude
2011-08-07 01:47 <wolfspraul> that is risky, in technology
2011-08-07 01:47 <rjeffries> I have work to do. ;)
2011-08-07 01:50 <GitHub194> [milkymist] kristianpaul pushed 2 new commits to gps-sdr-testing: https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/compare/14055f8...67e3a3e
2011-08-07 01:50 <GitHub194> [milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] missing overrun condition for the counter - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas
2011-08-07 01:50 <GitHub194> [milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] namuru related bios commands WIP - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas
2011-08-07 01:56 <wolfspraul> rjeffries: read it after your work break if you like. this is a hardware project. you are very good at criticizing others and that is appreciated and valued. and I know you are serious.
2011-08-07 01:56 <wolfspraul> but sometimes you have to take criticism too. Now, if you start with your duino boards, you will probably find that in hardware, the only thing that matters is to try something out in physical reality.
2011-08-07 01:56 <wolfspraul> seriously, that is the #1 #1
2011-08-07 01:56 <wolfspraul> _every time_, you buy a chip, because you read about some great feature X
2011-08-07 01:57 <wolfspraul> after you actually try it, you dive in, you find out 'ooops'. 'yes, they implemented X, but with the following caveat: ...'
2011-08-07 01:57 <wolfspraul> every time. 100%. guaranteed.
2011-08-07 01:58 <wolfspraul> so a lot of the experienced people here simply work features backwards. have you tried it? does it work? if yes: feature exists. if no: we know nothing until we tried
2011-08-07 01:58 <kristianpaul> who dont love caveats ;-)
2011-08-07 01:58 <wolfspraul> that's my experience from years of doing hardware now, and shared by many I know who are as real in this field as I am
2011-08-07 01:58 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: would you agree with my assessment?
2011-08-07 01:59 <wolfspraul> when Ingenic comes out with a new chip, the 'feature list' is more a wishlist. THey 'think' that's what the chip should be able to do. They will remove features from the feature list as the customer complaints come in.
2011-08-07 01:59 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: yes i do, i already had experienced that on my work too, not making hardware but integrate systems is always fun :)
2011-08-07 02:00 <wolfspraul> that's how the industry works (exaggerated in China but it's the same principle everywhere)
2011-08-07 02:00 <kristianpaul> security system*
2011-08-07 02:01 <wolfspraul> so complain about condescending or not, yes, Pixel Qi is ugly vaporware and needs to be labeled as such so that well meaning people in this channel can form their own opinion. After they have seen 2 opposing ones :-)
2011-08-07 02:01 <wolfspraul> I think one reason the hardware industry is so full of features that don't work once you try in practice is because the feedback loop is so slow.
2011-08-07 02:02 <wolfspraul> so a manager at some company may be desperate, and just get the feature in even with crippling limitations, he can save his job a few more months, or maybe get transferred to another department before the sales numbers come in. ("so low? why?")
2011-08-07 02:02 <wolfspraul> the feedback loop is many months typically
2011-08-07 02:03 <wolfspraul> that grows the problem unless you have a lot of experienced people everywhere who approach these many months of 'wishful thinking' (based on statements) with the attitude "at least 50% of this won't work anyway"
2011-08-07 02:10 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-08#atben.2Fatusb
2011-08-07 02:10 <wolfspraul> added 802.15.4 IEEE clarification - thanks!
2011-08-07 02:15 <kristianpaul> oh, Buy after all those ephel* prices you feel a nanonote is cheap :)
2011-08-07 02:15 <kristianpaul> even a mm1, that btw i tought you have stock now? or distributors at least?
2011-08-07 02:16 <wolfspraul> that was the secret plan. put the 24,000 USD Eyesis there to make the m1 look cheap
2011-08-07 02:16 <wolfspraul> Werner already noticed last night
2011-08-07 02:17 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: no stock yet, still working on details
2011-08-07 02:17 <kristianpaul> btw "*  Jadon Dutra made two nice Ben NanoNote tutorial videos. [8] "  <-- problems compiling emacs natively on the nanonote ??¡¡
2011-08-07 02:18 <wolfspraul> don't know, talk to him. maybe he can make more videos, I think his are very nice.
2011-08-07 02:18 <kristianpaul> ok, i jus wondering ig the link was right..
2011-08-07 02:18 <kristianpaul> ok
2011-08-07 02:18 <kristianpaul> s/ig/if
2011-08-07 02:19 <wolfspraul> oh, the link is wrong?
2011-08-07 02:19 <wolfspraul> one sec
2011-08-07 02:20 <kristianpaul> it seems to me, please confirm
2011-08-07 02:20 <wolfspraul> excellent, yes. thank you so much!
2011-08-07 02:21 <wolfspraul> this goes back to some long standing pipermail bugs that are not being fixed for 10 years or more.
2011-08-07 02:21 <kristianpaul> ;-)
2011-08-07 02:21 <wolfspraul> neither did I, in those years
2011-08-07 02:21 <wolfspraul> so it garbles/eats mails from the archives sometimes
2011-08-07 02:21 <wolfspraul> thanks a lot for noticing it, link corrected
2011-08-07 02:22 <kristianpaul> eat? wow
2011-08-07 02:22 <kristianpaul> i wonder how mamy conflicts that had already generated
2011-08-07 02:23 <kristianpaul> (you banned my mail,  sensure !, etc..)
2011-08-07 02:23 <wolfspraul> when a new mail comes in, pipermail adds it to the stack
2011-08-07 02:23 <wolfspraul> and modifies the links in the various html pages
2011-08-07 02:24 <wolfspraul> but when you re-generate the entire archive from scratch, the results are different
2011-08-07 02:24 <wolfspraul> probably some problem with parsing mime
2011-08-07 02:24 <kristianpaul> hum thats serious and kinda anynoing..
2011-08-07 02:24 <wolfspraul> so before I do news, I will regenerate the entire archive from scratch, so the links become 'permanent'
2011-08-07 02:25 <wolfspraul> I overlooked this one
2011-08-07 02:25 <wolfspraul> yes, annoying, and there for at least 10 years
2011-08-07 02:25 <wolfspraul> or 15
2011-08-07 02:25 <wolfspraul> I was trying to find a pipermail replacement, but the entire GNU mailman is not very actively developed
2011-08-07 02:26 <wolfspraul> any serious modern user of mailing lists has long switched to SaaS like mailchimp.com and many others
2011-08-07 02:26 <wolfspraul> they are like 1000 times better than GNU mailman, from a purely practical perspective :-)
2011-08-07 02:27 <kristianpaul> (SaaS) bah, dont remenber me those :/
2011-08-07 02:27 <wolfspraul> yes well, first the facts
2011-08-07 02:27 <wolfspraul> and the fact is that those services are lightyears ahead of GNU mailman
2011-08-07 02:27 <kristianpaul> he :)
2011-08-07 02:28 <wolfspraul> I would not want to recommend GNU mailman to any small business owner that would ask me for advice. I'd say "mailchimp.com" or so.
2011-08-07 02:28 <kristianpaul> i will said, freelists.org ;)
2011-08-07 02:28 <wolfspraul> ok :-)
2011-08-07 02:28 <wolfspraul> I am still satisfied with mailman/pipermail right now, I just wish it would develop faster, or non-SaaS GPL alternatives would pop up
2011-08-07 02:30 <kristianpaul> Stable release 2.1.14 / September 20, 2010; 10 months ago (2010-09-20), according wikipedia
2011-08-07 02:30 <kristianpaul> so thats a pesky 10year bug :-)
2011-08-07 02:30 <wolfspraul> yes but the devil is in the detail
2011-08-07 02:30 <wolfspraul> the pipermail archiver (which is a part of it) is mostly unmaintained
2011-08-07 02:30 <wolfspraul> and the rest of GNU mailman is also essentially in maintenance mode, compare to any 'modern' feature like say at mailchimp
2011-08-07 02:30 <wolfspraul> they all just don't exist
2011-08-07 02:31 <wolfspraul> it's like a time machine to the last century
2011-08-07 02:33 <wolfspraul> of course many people would hate a lot of those features :-) http://mailchimp.com/features/
2011-08-07 02:34 <wolfspraul> but it's a dangerous development if we disconnect from what most people will happily use and what will be effective for them. we become like a sect in the mountains.
2011-08-07 02:35 <wolfspraul> by now the split is so big (say between GNU mailman and mailchimp), that I believe it cannot be reconciled ever
2011-08-07 02:35 <wolfspraul> people on neither side even care, actually :-)
2011-08-07 02:35 <kristianpaul> i was about to said that :)
2011-08-07 02:36 <wolfspraul> yeah we just gotta be careful to not pad on our own shoulders too hard...
2011-08-07 02:36 <wolfspraul> I won't go and fix those pipermail bugs either.
2011-08-07 02:37 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: if Qi would make use of 'evil' tools like mailchimp.com, what would you think about that?
2011-08-07 02:38 <wpwrak> (cost-down m1) call is Phuenix ? ;-) oh, and i'd drop the NOR as well. as i understand things, nothing it does in M1 requires is to be NOR. a serial flash would do just fine, at probably a tiny fraction of the cost. (requires a bit of development effort, though)
2011-08-07 02:38 <kristianpaul> well.. i will doubt that copyleft way they claim soo hard ;)
2011-08-07 02:38 <kristianpaul> s/soo/so
2011-08-07 02:39 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: drop nor is one of the big questions, yes
2011-08-07 02:39 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: (serial flash) acutally a board from cern uses same s6 and serial flash
2011-08-07 02:40 <kristianpaul> design is there, just is altium, and i havent figure out how run rhe viewer in linux..
2011-08-07 02:40 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: don't understand you. If Qi would use tools like mailchimp you would find Qi less authentic/credible?
2011-08-07 02:40 <wolfspraul> so my concern about dropping nor is... software compatibility :-)
2011-08-07 02:41 <wolfspraul> I still want to be able to build one image, ideally one bitstream, to run on all boards, all the way back to the first milkymist one rc1
2011-08-07 02:41 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: well, it depends, if i consider there is a vps somehwere been ignored,
2011-08-07 02:41 <wolfspraul> if we can achieve that, then there is even value in the switch because our design and platform would be more flexible
2011-08-07 02:41 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: of course that cost (vps/dedicated machine)
2011-08-07 02:41 <wolfspraul> vps? don't understand again
2011-08-07 02:42 <wolfspraul> would like like Qi to use mailchimp or not?
2011-08-07 02:42 <wolfspraul> (I don't want to, no worries. but I am curious about your thinking)
2011-08-07 02:42 <kristianpaul> NO :)
2011-08-07 02:42 <wolfspraul> ok
2011-08-07 02:42 <wolfspraul> thanks
2011-08-07 02:42 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 02:42 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: i host my own server too, and when i ran out money well, i should consider use githiub for host my page, but the i'll regret my self after 3 years of work to achieve that aparent autnomy :)
2011-08-07 02:42 <wolfspraul> so I am totally relaxed about nor vs serial flash, but I think it's an important decision that we need to make carefully
2011-08-07 02:43 <wolfspraul> unless we don't care that our platform disintegrates into a bunch of incompatible boards
2011-08-07 02:43 <kristianpaul> hum..
2011-08-07 02:44 <wolfspraul> I want to be able to build, from source, images for all boards I ever sold. and the maintenance and testing overhead of that should be as low as possible.
2011-08-07 02:44 <kristianpaul> thats true (incompatible boards), considering different bitstream bios support..
2011-08-07 02:44 <wpwrak> grmbl. a week worth of backlog in just about one hour. still ~5% from the bottom, according to the scroll bar ...
2011-08-07 02:45 <wolfspraul> and all mostly meaningless blurbs, sorry about that...
2011-08-07 02:45 <wolfspraul> the NOR vs. spi is a good topic though, I'll wait until you caught up
2011-08-07 02:50 <larsc> stop reading the backlogs in here long time ago ;)
2011-08-07 02:51 <kristianpaul> larsc: not all backlog is blurb
2011-08-07 02:52 <wolfspraul> I also read backlogs only sporadically, once a month maybe
2011-08-07 02:52 <kristianpaul> well, i really like backlog from wolfspraul and wpwrak discussion some days in the morning
2011-08-07 02:52 <wolfspraul> every minute reading = one minute less coding. Man I hope I can get back to coding one day...
2011-08-07 02:52 <larsc> kristianpaul: thats true. but the signal to noise ratio can get low at times
2011-08-07 02:53 <kristianpaul> may be is time to stop doing that :)
2011-08-07 02:53 <wolfspraul> yes but now I'm waiting for Werner and spi vs. nor :-)
2011-08-07 02:53 <wolfspraul> that one is very interesting to me
2011-08-07 02:53 <larsc> wolfspraul: i hope i can get away from it one day ;)
2011-08-07 02:53 <wolfspraul> from coding?
2011-08-07 02:53 <larsc> yes
2011-08-07 02:53 <wolfspraul> wait until you want back :-)
2011-08-07 02:53 <wolfspraul> computers fight fair
2011-08-07 02:54 <wolfspraul> we swap. you do sourcing, I do coding.
2011-08-07 02:54 <larsc> hehe
2011-08-07 02:56 <larsc> i'll start at my first 9-5 coding job in two months. lets see how that goes
2011-08-07 02:57 <wolfspraul> you will do well. stay for 2 years at least, my advice.
2011-08-07 02:57 <wolfspraul> that'll be the hardest part for you :-)
2011-08-07 02:57 <wolfspraul> congratulations btw for getting that job! it's always exciting to be around new people, I think.
2011-08-07 02:58 <larsc> yeah, i guess it will be quite interesting. at least in the beginning
2011-08-07 02:59 <kristianpaul> (new people) indeed, after two years or so will be boring tought imho
2011-08-07 03:05 <kristianpaul> well, at least is what i can said from my current job
2011-08-07 03:13 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: caught up?
2011-08-07 03:27 <wolfspraul> is there any electrical reason why m1 cannot support usb-otg ?
2011-08-07 03:27 <wolfspraul> (lars just brought his up in a PM)
2011-08-07 03:28 <wolfspraul> I think it's usb host right now, and if you solder some passive component somewhere you can turn it into a USB client
2011-08-07 03:28 <wolfspraul> but what about otg? aside from the missing IC design support, I would think
2011-08-07 03:29 <larsc> otg uses a different connector
2011-08-07 03:29 <wolfspraul> but that's only mechanical I think
2011-08-07 03:29 <larsc> that connector has also an additional pin
2011-08-07 03:30 <larsc> the id pin, which is used to detect what kind of device is attached
2011-08-07 03:30 <larsc> and whether it is a usb host or device
2011-08-07 03:30 <wolfspraul> we are using a Micrel USB transceiver http://www.micrel.com/_PDF/mic2550a.pdf
2011-08-07 03:35 <larsc> i think you can support at least a subset of otg with a 'normal' transceiver
2011-08-07 03:37 <wolfspraul> yes it's a very good point. I don't know what the smartest way forward is with the Micrel transceiver we have right now. needs more study.
2011-08-07 03:37 <wolfspraul> I do remember Sebastien saying at some point that it is possible to support USB client mode by adding a passive part somewhere.
2011-08-07 03:37 <wolfspraul> of course then it's hard-coded to client :-)
2011-08-07 03:37 <wolfspraul> not exactly the type of switching we have in mind for otg
2011-08-07 03:38 <wolfspraul> and the micrel receiver we have only support full-speed (12mbps), not sure whether that is a problem. and then the work in the SoC (IC design), no idea.
2011-08-07 03:40 <wolfspraul> I also just notice the diagrams seems to suggest a surge protection, wondering whether we have that... (this is unrelated to otg of course, just noticed)
2011-08-07 03:42 <wolfspraul> ok, we need to keep this on the to-be-researched list :-)
2011-08-07 03:55 <wolfspraul> is anybody against bumping andrew's nyan cat on silicon to the top of the news?
2011-08-07 03:55 <wolfspraul> if not I'll try. he just uploaded better pictures from a better run.
2011-08-07 04:30 <wolfspraul> alright, updated the Nyan Cat with better pictures and moved to the top. It's a nice short intro I think, and very serious project with great lab notes etc http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-08#Homebrew_CMOS_and_MEMS_foundry
2011-08-07 04:54 <qi-bot> The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08062011-0058/
2011-08-07 07:25 <Artyom> kristianpaul: I would check at first access to Namuru-registers. What about adding couple of test registers to which you can write and couple registers from wich you can read what was written previously?
2011-08-07 07:27 <Artyom> And also I want to ask about array "const int prn_code[38]". Did you take values for it from osgps or from namuru documentation (osgps and namuru use different values).
2011-08-07 08:51 <wpwrak> (back from a nap. continuing with the backlog. still some ~3% from the bottom ... just passed my last comment on the backlog)
2011-08-07 08:56 <wpwrak> catch-up complete !! ;-)
2011-08-07 08:57 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 08:57 <wolfspraul> and I'm just back from running, good
2011-08-07 08:58 <wolfspraul> Lars brought up the interesting otg subject, that's something I will try to understand better at some point
2011-08-07 08:58 <wolfspraul> but let's talk about nor vs. spi first
2011-08-07 08:58 <wolfspraul> that one is really important I think, right now
2011-08-07 08:58 <wpwrak> (nyan cat) maybe for the future, a brief "highlights" section could be interesting. say, three items of insterest, be it because they mark important progress or because they're just unusual, pick a ~100 pixel image and use it as a "button". that way, you could place such "off-topic" things prominently without creating confusion
2011-08-07 08:58 <wolfspraul> so let's first remove some myths about the nor chip: it is easy to source, and it costs 10.50 USD for me right now
2011-08-07 08:59 <wolfspraul> you find thousands of it in stock at Arrows, though not at digikey (where you can still order it in some quantity though)
2011-08-07 08:59 <wolfspraul> so it's not an obscure chip, and instead of 'expensive', let's just say 10.50 USD and then compare...
2011-08-07 09:00 <wpwrak> (nyan can) oh, and it's s/Nyon/Nyan/ ;-) nyon is a nice little place between lausanne and geneve where they have a big open-air concert event every year. sort of a swiss woodstock ;-)
2011-08-07 09:00 <wolfspraul> the pros are: speed (what speed? boot speed?) execute-in-place?
2011-08-07 09:00 <wpwrak> according to lekernel, EIP isn't used
2011-08-07 09:00 <wolfspraul> current Milkymist is 'compatible' with it? what does that impact exactly? bitstream? bios? rtems?
2011-08-07 09:01 <wolfspraul> if we make another milkymist board with an SPI flash, how can we achieve binary software compatibility across both boards?
2011-08-07 09:01 <wpwrak> EIP would have been my #1 concern. if it was used, then the replacement may be more difficult (e.g., you'd at least need more RAM)
2011-08-07 09:01 <wolfspraul> one of my goals is that whatever I produce, I wnat to be able to maintain/support the software on it for good / forever
2011-08-07 09:01 <wpwrak> how big is the NOR again ?
2011-08-07 09:02 <wolfspraul> so I like to 'switch', but we must switch in such a way that later will not increase our software maintenance burden
2011-08-07 09:02 <wolfspraul> 32 MiB
2011-08-07 09:02 <wolfspraul> if we achieve that, then we make the Milkymist platform more powerful/flexible, and that's always good
2011-08-07 09:02 <wolfspraul> but if we don't achieve it, we create fragmentation and that's the worst we need, imho
2011-08-07 09:02 <wolfspraul> that's my #1 concern, really
2011-08-07 09:02 <wpwrak> i wouldn't make binary compatibility a requirement. it's not something you can control anyway. what you can control is a process that makes building the set of binaries you need painless
2011-08-07 09:03 <wolfspraul> fine, but you understand my point
2011-08-07 09:03 <wolfspraul> the less we work on this, think about it, the more fragmentation
2011-08-07 09:03 <wpwrak> if you can achieve binary compatibility, great. if not, you take it in stride
2011-08-07 09:03 <wolfspraul> and that will kill Milkymist in the long run
2011-08-07 09:03 <wolfspraul> first we define it as a worthwhile goal
2011-08-07 09:03 <wpwrak> sounds fair
2011-08-07 09:03 <wolfspraul> and since we are designing the boards, there always should be a chance to signal hardware differences in some way
2011-08-07 09:04 <wolfspraul> if we don't try, it will fragment very fast
2011-08-07 09:04 <wolfspraul> and in 5 years we have a lot of boards and the software will be a mess
2011-08-07 09:04 <wpwrak> USD 10.50 is for which quantity ?
2011-08-07 09:04 <wolfspraul> for rc3 I bought 90 maybe
2011-08-07 09:04 <wolfspraul> or 95
2011-08-07 09:04 <wpwrak> so that's the ~100 units price
2011-08-07 09:04 <wolfspraul> at Chinese/Taiwanese distributors the volume discounts are not as steep as at US distributors
2011-08-07 09:04 <wolfspraul> Chinese work harder :-)
2011-08-07 09:05 <wolfspraul> so as you go down in volume, the price goes up, but not that fast
2011-08-07 09:05 <wpwrak> yeah, they only care about the 1M+ discounts ;-)
2011-08-07 09:05 <wolfspraul> I believe for rc2 I may have paid a little more
2011-08-07 09:05 <wolfspraul> wait, I check. should be in the wiki too.
2011-08-07 09:05 <wolfspraul> no, also 10.50 USD
2011-08-07 09:06 <wolfspraul> at digikey it's 11.xx for ca. 500
2011-08-07 09:06 <wolfspraul> but not in stock
2011-08-07 09:06 <wolfspraul> so anyway, I just want to avoid we have this 'expensive' as our only argument, and rather compare real numbers
2011-08-07 09:07 <wolfspraul> this chip is from a big series of NOR chips, so even if this one goes away I doubt the entire series goes away. I don't know how much a smaller or larger one would be.
2011-08-07 09:07 <wolfspraul> the nor chips were just sold from Intel to Micron I believe. something like that.
2011-08-07 09:07 <wolfspraul> what I don't like about it is that it is physically big
2011-08-07 09:08 <wolfspraul> I don't know how an SPI flash would compare in size
2011-08-07 09:08 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: so now let's compare :-)
2011-08-07 09:08 <wolfspraul> what is the spi alternative? what are the pros and cons?
2011-08-07 09:08 <wolfspraul> speed, price, size, binary or other platform compatibility, availability
2011-08-07 09:08 <wpwrak> hmm, the largest serial flash i can find at digi-key is 16 MB. USD 4.73. http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=N25Q128A11B1241FCT-ND
2011-08-07 09:09 <wpwrak> 6 x 8 mm, BGA, digi-key say
2011-08-07 09:09 <wpwrak> (no data sheet link)
2011-08-07 09:11 <wolfspraul> is that the end of our comparison already? :-)
2011-08-07 09:11 <wolfspraul> not enough pros?
2011-08-07 09:11 <wolfspraul> if a 16mb flash is already 4.73, I would think the 32mb flash costs 7-8 USD?
2011-08-07 09:11 <wpwrak> size is a function of pins and capacity
2011-08-07 09:12 <wolfspraul> so the cost savings are in the 3-4 USD range
2011-08-07 09:12 <wpwrak> if 16 MB is at the top end of the range, it would be more than 2x. but i don't know how reliable digi-key are as an information source here. they generally don't have a lot of memory.
2011-08-07 09:13 <wpwrak> (size) so at some point, if you need very high capacity, the die size dominates the total size. if your die can be small, the number of pins does.
2011-08-07 09:14 <wpwrak> but i'd try to go for something more radical anyway. boot a minimum loader, then haul the rest in from uSD
2011-08-07 09:15 <wolfspraul> you can search for 'strataflash' at digikey, that's the name of the series
2011-08-07 09:15 <wpwrak> this is non-trivial, because you'd also have to "upgrade" the FPGA. but once you've solved that, you never have to go back to this kind of issues :)
2011-08-07 09:15 <wolfspraul> then numonyx only
2011-08-07 09:16 <wolfspraul> in general they seem quite well stocked for this series
2011-08-07 09:16 <wpwrak> yes, all "non-stock", but all in stock ;-))
2011-08-07 09:17 <wolfspraul> yeah. they show all these funny numbers under 'quantity available'
2011-08-07 09:18 <wpwrak> anyway, i'd just fix the boot process for good. reduce external dependencies. go with the simplest serial flash that can do the job, and only keep the absolute minimum "core" there. ideally, you'd never have to change it.
2011-08-07 09:19 <wpwrak> move all the things that can change, break, etc., into something nice and easy, like uSD
2011-08-07 09:19 <wolfspraul> wait
2011-08-07 09:19 <wpwrak> and yes, buy ten of each type of holders they have at digi-key and test which one actually works ;-)
2011-08-07 09:19 <wolfspraul> I understand
2011-08-07 09:20 <wolfspraul> first I look into this nor chip now
2011-08-07 09:20 <wolfspraul> I try to understand it
2011-08-07 09:20 <wolfspraul> in general at digikey the 16mib or 32mib variants seem available, but there are a lot of speed variants there it becomes 'call' only
2011-08-07 09:20 <wolfspraul> for the faster speeds (85ns)
2011-08-07 09:21 <wpwrak> Megabits or MegaBytes ?
2011-08-07 09:21 <wolfspraul> I feel 'relatively' safe about this nor chip
2011-08-07 09:21 <wolfspraul> mib = megabytes
2011-08-07 09:21 <wolfspraul> I think it's a big series and must be used in high volume products all over.
2011-08-07 09:22 <wolfspraul> on the other hand it's clear that compared to say 'smartphones', those chips are crazy expensive and selling in crazy limited numbers
2011-08-07 09:22 <wpwrak> yeah, maybe PCs still boot form NOR
2011-08-07 09:22 <wolfspraul> also embedded, it's a big world
2011-08-07 09:22 <wolfspraul> Intel sold it to Micron, not sure what that means
2011-08-07 09:22 <wolfspraul> but my point is - this is not a rare/exotic chip that makes me worry right now, even though several people try to tell me that
2011-08-07 09:23 <wolfspraul> I just don't see evidence
2011-08-07 09:23 <wpwrak> (nyan cat) btw, his new results are too perfect. the old one showed some chemistry going awry. the new ones just look digitally generated :)
2011-08-07 09:23 <wolfspraul> it's clear that the price point of such chips is 'high' compared to the super high volume chips nowadays
2011-08-07 09:24 <wolfspraul> but you could extend that argument to the spi flash as well
2011-08-07 09:24 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: well, he asked me to use the new pics and that's fine by me. I think for the casual browser those pice are nice.
2011-08-07 09:24 <wpwrak> yeah, it's price point, size, layout complexity (the chip needs data and address lines)
2011-08-07 09:25 <wpwrak> (nyan) yeah, just kidding. the results are amazing
2011-08-07 09:25 <wolfspraul> so what is the bottom line now?
2011-08-07 09:25 <wolfspraul> we first try to make the boot process ready for larger diversity?
2011-08-07 09:25 <wolfspraul> but we are not actively looking at spi flash now because nor is just fine?
2011-08-07 09:26 <wpwrak> i think a NOR->SPI flash change should come with a generalization of the boot process. dunno the technical details but it sounds like a problem that can be solved, particularly given that lekernel already knows FPGA internals so well :)
2011-08-07 09:27 <wolfspraul> I highly doubt he sees that as an interesting task at this time, with seemingly hundreds of more interesting ones in the pipeline
2011-08-07 09:27 <wpwrak> if you try to map the current NOR 1:1 to SPI, you seem to force yourself into a corner of the existing product range
2011-08-07 09:28 <wolfspraul> you mean the spi flash product range?
2011-08-07 09:28 <wpwrak> i'm not saying that he'd have to execute it :) but i'm sure he'd share his knowledge
2011-08-07 09:28 <wolfspraul> which one do you see 'in the middle' there?
2011-08-07 09:28 <wolfspraul> I feel no need/pressure for this switch now, my main interest is to prepare/guide it in such a way that strengthens and will not fragment the platform
2011-08-07 09:28 <wolfspraul> for m1 I don't need it
2011-08-07 09:28 <wpwrak> in the middle of the chip range ? dunno. a small number of MB. you shouldn't need much.
2011-08-07 09:29 <wpwrak> (M1) agreed. it's a relatively invasive change. for M1 you want to stabilize, then spin off (an) improved model(s)
2011-08-07 09:29 <wolfspraul> but strangely enough a log of developers who never source much are telling me those nor flash are hard to source :-)
2011-08-07 09:29 <wpwrak> no point in creating an eternal construction site
2011-08-07 09:29 <wolfspraul> which makes me wonder is this just an argument because they are more familiar with spi flash?
2011-08-07 09:30 <wpwrak> oh, i remember NOR sourcing fun at openmoko. compared to a lot of other things, they have a pretty high bitchiness rank :)
2011-08-07 09:30 <wolfspraul> yes, and it's not sure for me now that a switch to spi flash would even be an improvement, I am trying to understand what the improvement would be.
2011-08-07 09:31 <wolfspraul> what exactly do you remember there?
2011-08-07 09:31 <wolfspraul> I am already sure by now that many developers will be more familiar with SPI flash, reasonable or not.
2011-08-07 09:31 <wpwrak> first of all, not all NOR are created alike. so you have to be careful about the specs. control signals, bus type, internal structure, etc. depends a bit on what features you need, of course.
2011-08-07 09:31 <wolfspraul> not that I think the typical hardware folks are big risk or innovation seekers either :-) unlike us/me here :-)
2011-08-07 09:32 <wolfspraul> I also heard those 'horror stories' but at the time I was too clueless to dig in.
2011-08-07 09:32 <wolfspraul> it may well have been just myths and ghosts, mixed with a lot of incompetence
2011-08-07 09:32 <wolfspraul> and a quick look and order on digikey would have solved the problem
2011-08-07 09:32 <wolfspraul> quite possible, as you may have to admit :-)
2011-08-07 09:33 <wpwrak> naw, there were real. i did the research for the NOR chip ;-)
2011-08-07 09:33 <wolfspraul> then what were the problems?
2011-08-07 09:33 <wolfspraul> we switched from one manufacturer to another?
2011-08-07 09:33 <wpwrak> and of course, FIC sourcing then replaced the one i found with a slightly different one. and guess what couldn't be found then ? ;-))
2011-08-07 09:33 <wolfspraul> always same manufacturer?
2011-08-07 09:34 <wpwrak> no no, that was the addition of "unbrickability" NOR in gta02, coming from the brickable gta01
2011-08-07 09:34 <wolfspraul> yes I know
2011-08-07 09:34 <wolfspraul> the very reason for adding that chip smells 'over-engineering'
2011-08-07 09:34 <wolfspraul> but that's a different subject
2011-08-07 09:34 <wolfspraul> but what were the technical problems now?
2011-08-07 09:34 <wolfspraul> you chose one?
2011-08-07 09:34 <wolfspraul> which manufacturer/model?
2011-08-07 09:34 <wolfspraul> and then they changed? to what?
2011-08-07 09:34 <wolfspraul> and then what?
2011-08-07 09:36 <wpwrak> i need to dig out the old mails. parameters that matter there include the write protection mechanism, the bus type, internal structure (not all blocks have the same size), volatage domains (some are even dual-voltage)
2011-08-07 09:36 <wolfspraul> yes ok
2011-08-07 09:36 <wolfspraul> but then you chose one, right?
2011-08-07 09:36 <wolfspraul> of course there are many parameters
2011-08-07 09:37 <wolfspraul> my history/experience with nor flash starts with the micron/numonyx one on m1, and so far, so good
2011-08-07 09:37 <wpwrak> also, some of the NORs get around a lot. company X makes them, then they get bought by Y, the NORs get transferred into joint-venture Z, and so on. so there are a lot fewer actual chips on the market than you'd think if you just collect names
2011-08-07 09:37 <wolfspraul> sounds like hearsay
2011-08-07 09:37 <wolfspraul> I mean that is exactly what happened in the intel->micron case, but it was super transparent and easy to understand and follow
2011-08-07 09:38 <wolfspraul> in fact Intel published PDFs that detailed every tiny bit of the move in such a way that you would think they are training monkeys
2011-08-07 09:38 <wpwrak> i chose one. then FIC sourcing picked a different one. smaller and i think some small technical details changed as well (but that wasn't a major issue). and, unlike mine, it was hard to source ;-)
2011-08-07 09:38 <wolfspraul> so that nobody in the supply chain is scared if the label suddenly looks a little different :-)
2011-08-07 09:38 <wolfspraul> yes!
2011-08-07 09:38 <wolfspraul> but that's not a nor problem
2011-08-07 09:38 <wolfspraul> I still don't know manufacturer names
2011-08-07 09:38 <wpwrak> intel usually have great documentation
2011-08-07 09:39 <wolfspraul> they switched manufacturer?
2011-08-07 09:39 <wolfspraul> there are not that many fabs that make such chips
2011-08-07 09:39 <wpwrak> ah yes, NOR documentation is also something. some of the stuff you can only figure out by reading 2-3 data sheets from competitors
2011-08-07 09:39 <wolfspraul> I can only say that lots of people tell me "nor on m1 is bad"
2011-08-07 09:39 <wolfspraul> so I take full responsibility for dismissing that, which is not that great.
2011-08-07 09:39 <wolfspraul> but so far, it's fine
2011-08-07 09:40 <wolfspraul> that's also unspecific again
2011-08-07 09:40 <wolfspraul> wait let me check our nor datasheet...
2011-08-07 09:40 <wolfspraul> there seems to be a lot of nor hatred out there ;-)
2011-08-07 09:40 <wolfspraul> bom points to http://www.numonyx.com/Documents/Datasheets/319942_J3-65nm_256-Mbit_MLC%20DS.pdf
2011-08-07 09:40 <wpwrak> numonux are kinda intel ;-)
2011-08-07 09:41 <wolfspraul> 404
2011-08-07 09:45 <wolfspraul> bah, where is dsv :-)
2011-08-07 09:45 <wolfspraul> I will try to update the URL first of all
2011-08-07 09:45 <wolfspraul> these horrible ad-overloaded alldatasheet sites, bah
2011-08-07 09:45 <wolfspraul> really horrible
2011-08-07 09:45 <wolfspraul> ee porn
2011-08-07 09:46 <wpwrak> i forwarded you two mails about the NOR selection for gta02
2011-08-07 09:46 <wpwrak> (both are in one mail)
2011-08-07 09:46 <wpwrak> (ee porn) ;)))
2011-08-07 09:46 <wpwrak> so you really have to go to alldatasheets for numonyx ?!?
2011-08-07 09:49 <wolfspraul> well :-)
2011-08-07 09:49 <wolfspraul> it seems micron is rather shy on datasheets
2011-08-07 09:49 <wolfspraul> so one by one
2011-08-07 09:50 <wolfspraul> I did download the Numonyx datasheet, I believe that is back from the Intel days
2011-08-07 09:50 <wolfspraul> 66-page, looks solid
2011-08-07 09:50 <wolfspraul> I will archive that away now
2011-08-07 09:50 <wolfspraul> if you look at the Micron parallel nor list, you will understand why digikey doesn't like to stock the stuff http://www.micron.com/partscatalog.html?categoryPath=products/nor_flash/parallel_nor_flash
2011-08-07 09:51 <wolfspraul> there must be hundreds of part numbers there, it's still loading more...
2011-08-07 09:51 <wpwrak> ;-))
2011-08-07 09:51 <wolfspraul> plus if it is true that Micron doesn't release anything but fancy marketing datasheets for Ron, then that's a big argument against it, in my book
2011-08-07 09:51 <wpwrak> yes, there are tons of different NORs. and it's oh so easy to pick one that's obscure.
2011-08-07 09:51 <wolfspraul> (sorry Ron :-))
2011-08-07 09:52 <wolfspraul> but I don't want to jump to conclusions
2011-08-07 09:53 <wpwrak> i take a dim view of "you can have our data sheets, but you have to beg for them" companies
2011-08-07 09:53 <wolfspraul> wait one by one
2011-08-07 09:53 <wolfspraul> still researching
2011-08-07 09:53 <wolfspraul> I don't like a 404 link in our bom anyway
2011-08-07 09:54 <wolfspraul> ok we have a backup copy on downloads, well done by Adam, even without the help of dsv...
2011-08-07 09:54 <wolfspraul> I will link to that first
2011-08-07 09:55 <wpwrak> if they give the data sheet to anyone who asks, they've merely invented a process with a step that wasted my and their time. i don't like it if people presume my time is theirs to waste.
2011-08-07 09:56 <wpwrak> if they filter who gets access and who not, they've just added an element of unreliability to the process, particularly with a distributed environment like ours
2011-08-07 09:57 <wolfspraul> oh very easy. that means the datasheet doesn't exist.
2011-08-07 09:57 <wolfspraul> I will never ask.
2011-08-07 09:57 <wolfspraul> copyleft hardware is about speed
2011-08-07 09:57 <wolfspraul> my typing speed
2011-08-07 09:57 <wolfspraul> no fickle human in between
2011-08-07 09:58 <wolfspraul> for now we can point to the backup we have on downloads
2011-08-07 09:58 <wpwrak> yeah, i pretty much treat them like this, too. registration/approval/other nonsense required -> goes right down to the bottom of the pile
2011-08-07 09:58 <wolfspraul> but chips without datasheets are not suited for copyleft hardware, so if that's micron's new policy (after the takeover from Intel), that will mean their stuff will probably get designed out of our products, sooner or later
2011-08-07 09:59 <wolfspraul> oh. with 'datasheet' of course I mean a full and honest datasheet
2011-08-07 09:59 <wpwrak> *grin*
2011-08-07 09:59 <wolfspraul> so - first I fix the links to our backup
2011-08-07 09:59 <wolfspraul> but that would be a serious argument against the nor chip, again in my book
2011-08-07 10:01 <wolfspraul> yes, the datasheet I can download from all** after so and so many links is exactly the same one we have on downloads
2011-08-07 10:01 <wolfspraul> so that's good
2011-08-07 10:01 <wolfspraul> we are still in possession of a full 66-page datasheet for the nor chip on m1
2011-08-07 10:01 <wolfspraul> it's on downloads, and various ee porn sites on the web
2011-08-07 10:01 <wolfspraul> but for future nor chips from Micron that doesn't look too good...
2011-08-07 10:04 <LunaVorax_> hi everyone !
2011-08-07 10:04 <wolfspraul> now, let's do it right, Werner style
2011-08-07 10:05 <LunaVorax_> Werner ?
2011-08-07 10:05 <wolfspraul> Micron lists a total of 791 part numbers in their parallel nor flash catalog
2011-08-07 10:05 <wolfspraul> of which 611 are in 'Production'
2011-08-07 10:05 <wolfspraul> 147 are End of Life
2011-08-07 10:05 <wolfspraul> 5 are Sampling
2011-08-07 10:06 <wolfspraul> 28 are "Contact Factory"
2011-08-07 10:06 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_ ? :)
2011-08-07 10:06 <LunaVorax_> What/Who is Werner ? You wpwrak ?
2011-08-07 10:07 <wolfspraul> yes, totals up to 791
2011-08-07 10:07 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_: yup
2011-08-07 10:07 <wolfspraul> where is ours?
2011-08-07 10:08 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: you're more pedantic than I am. i don't think i ever checked that the numbers of items they find add up ;-)
2011-08-07 10:08 <LunaVorax_> How is qi-hw going ? I haven't received any newsletter for a long time
2011-08-07 10:08 <wolfspraul> It's in "Production"! Yippie.
2011-08-07 10:09 <wolfspraul> LunaVorax_: glad to hear you are experiencing some sort of cold turkey...
2011-08-07 10:09 <wolfspraul> LunaVorax_: soon you can buy a Milkymist One for 499 USD + shipping
2011-08-07 10:09 <wolfspraul> how about that?
2011-08-07 10:09 <wolfspraul> I think I tried to sell it to you already, but you went silent :-)
2011-08-07 10:09 <LunaVorax_> Haha yeah
2011-08-07 10:10 <LunaVorax_> I don't have any 500$ in my pockets right now
2011-08-07 10:10 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: well ok. I still feel fairly safe about the sourcing situation of that chip.
2011-08-07 10:10 <wolfspraul> that's ok, just saying. there are many ways how you can help, and your presence here is already nice.
2011-08-07 10:10 <wolfspraul> just spread the word then - Milkymist! :-)
2011-08-07 10:10 <LunaVorax_> And I'm still devoting my self to the Nanonote for now, trying ot code a GMenu2x alternative in SDL
2011-08-07 10:10 <wolfspraul> oh wow
2011-08-07 10:10 <wolfspraul> that's great
2011-08-07 10:11 <wolfspraul> the NanoNote is our pocket computer, and until we can come up with a better pocket computer it will stay there
2011-08-07 10:11 <LunaVorax_> I don't know, it started as a copycat of Windows 8
2011-08-07 10:11 <wolfspraul> try to do it super low-resource
2011-08-07 10:11 <wolfspraul> fast and very little memory
2011-08-07 10:11 <LunaVorax_> Yes I will, but keep in mind that I'm a beginner
2011-08-07 10:11 <wolfspraul> we are all
2011-08-07 10:11 <wolfspraul> you are in the right club here
2011-08-07 10:12 <wolfspraul> absolute beginners
2011-08-07 10:12 <LunaVorax_> Haha
2011-08-07 10:12 <wolfspraul> seriously
2011-08-07 10:12 <LunaVorax_> I always felt at home at #qi-hardware ;)
2011-08-07 10:12 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: if the datasheet of the nor flash went mia, that's bad
2011-08-07 10:12 <wolfspraul> we still have copies and there are enough on the web and that will be safe forever, but it's not good for the future
2011-08-07 10:13 <wolfspraul> but before coming to that conclusion I need to check on the micron site a bit more, or, god forbid, email them for a statement
2011-08-07 10:13 <wpwrak> yeah, data sheets "disappearing" isn't nice
2011-08-07 10:13 <wolfspraul> well
2011-08-07 10:13 <wolfspraul> the division was sold
2011-08-07 10:13 <wpwrak> alas, happens with those mergers and acquisitions
2011-08-07 10:13 <wolfspraul> correct
2011-08-07 10:14 <wolfspraul> there may be a new strategy around IP, documentation, etc. new managers. it's ok with me.
2011-08-07 10:14 <wolfspraul> it just may mean that we take our business elsewhere.
2011-08-07 10:14 <wpwrak> maybe it just pops up again with a new part number and a new company logo
2011-08-07 10:14 <wolfspraul> end of story
2011-08-07 10:14 <wolfspraul> no
2011-08-07 10:14 <wolfspraul> that has already happened
2011-08-07 10:14 <wolfspraul> and that is why the datasheet is gone now
2011-08-07 10:14 <wolfspraul> 404
2011-08-07 10:14 <wpwrak> the URL would of course change :)
2011-08-07 10:14 <wolfspraul> no
2011-08-07 10:15 <wolfspraul> you don't understand
2011-08-07 10:15 <wolfspraul> it was already branched out at the Intel times
2011-08-07 10:15 <wolfspraul> but then it got swallowed up by Micron
2011-08-07 10:15 <wolfspraul> so there is a nice redirect from numonyx.com to micron.com, but it ends in a nice Micron 404 page
2011-08-07 10:15 <wolfspraul> it could be an oversight, but I doubt it
2011-08-07 10:16 <wolfspraul> micron just has a number of 'technical briefs' in which they explain all their greatness to you
2011-08-07 10:16 <wolfspraul> all the many battles that they fought for you, etc. etc.
2011-08-07 10:17 <wolfspraul> I need to look a bit more, no conclusion yet.
2011-08-07 10:17 <wolfspraul> I'll fix the links first.
2011-08-07 10:17 <wolfspraul> first have to take care of our little beauty m1
2011-08-07 10:17 <wpwrak> marketing to decision-makers with an MBA :)
2011-08-07 10:17 <wolfspraul> oh yes
2011-08-07 10:17 <wolfspraul> "we chose that Micron technology, because ..."
2011-08-07 10:18 <wolfspraul> the only thing the engineers can hope for then is to remember the paycheck, and wonder whether it's enough in damage compensation
2011-08-07 10:18 <wolfspraul> but this is how our world functions, Micron also just needs to survive...
2011-08-07 10:19 <wolfspraul> so I have no gripes with them, but I will remove their chips from my products :-)
2011-08-07 10:19 <wolfspraul> which they will not worry about given my sales volume...
2011-08-07 10:19 <wolfspraul> all fine
2011-08-07 10:20 <wpwrak> so what's the chip again ?
2011-08-07 10:20 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC3_BOM
2011-08-07 10:21 <wolfspraul> JS28F256J3F105
2011-08-07 10:21 <wpwrak> thanks
2011-08-07 10:21 <wolfspraul> (or with an A or B at the end, tray or reel I think)
2011-08-07 10:21 <wolfspraul> after the 105
2011-08-07 10:21 <wolfspraul> JS28F256J3F105A
2011-08-07 10:21 <wolfspraul> like this
2011-08-07 10:22 <wolfspraul> LunaVorax_: what's the name of your launcher?
2011-08-07 10:22 <wolfspraul> it could be a very neat project for the NanoNote, I always wished for something lighter (in resources) and faster than gmenu2x
2011-08-07 10:23 <wpwrak> http://www.micron.com/get-document/?documentId=6062
2011-08-07 10:23 <wpwrak> http://www.micron.com/products/ProductDetails.html?product=products/nor_flash/parallel_nor_flash/JS28F256J3F105A
2011-08-07 10:24 <wolfspraul> well perfect, you are too fast for me
2011-08-07 10:24 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-08-07 10:25 <wolfspraul> they changed the name of the file slightly, but md5sum is the same
2011-08-07 10:26 <wolfspraul> so for the time being, the one known downside that remains is that it's a part number among 791 others
2011-08-07 10:26 <wolfspraul> meaning that stock levels may be an issue
2011-08-07 10:27 <wolfspraul> although the one we have so far seems to be a 'common' one, by the limited data I have
2011-08-07 10:27 <LunaVorax_> wolfspraul, don't know, I though about "Infinite"
2011-08-07 10:27 <LunaVorax_> You know, cause if you rotate the number 8
2011-08-07 10:27 <LunaVorax_> But I though something more of a welcome screen with squares and colors and widget, like on the Win8 demo
2011-08-07 10:27 <wolfspraul> Micron seems to follow Numonyx and Intel's datasheets, at least for now
2011-08-07 10:28 <LunaVorax_> And different pannels, one for the apps, the other for idk, weather, mails ?
2011-08-07 10:28 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: first Numonyx was branched out from Intel in 2008, then Micron bought Numonyx in 2010
2011-08-07 10:28 <wolfspraul> so far still a clean process
2011-08-07 10:29 <wolfspraul> LunaVorax_: sure, sounds good!
2011-08-07 10:29 <wolfspraul> hopefully the panels are easily configurable, for me the flatter the better
2011-08-07 10:29 <LunaVorax_> Don't be too excited haha
2011-08-07 10:30 <wolfspraul> that is so funny. On wikipedia for Numonyx they say "Fate: Acquired by Micron Technology"
2011-08-07 10:31 <wolfspraul> fate = "an inevitable course of events" (also Wikipedia)
2011-08-07 10:32 <wolfspraul> I guess there was no other way for Numonyx... :-)
2011-08-07 10:34 <wpwrak> they had it coming ;-)
2011-08-07 10:34 <wolfspraul> so back to your first thoughts. you want a minimal spi flash, then 8:10
2011-08-07 10:35 <wolfspraul> the spi flash would deliver what? the bitstream, rtems?
2011-08-07 10:35 <wolfspraul> or just a hand-written bootloader?
2011-08-07 10:35 <wolfspraul> u-boot? :-)
2011-08-07 10:35 <wolfspraul> Qi bootloader?
2011-08-07 10:35 <wolfspraul> Linux?
2011-08-07 10:36 <wolfspraul> the bitstream seems to be 1.4 megabytes long
2011-08-07 10:36 <wolfspraul> looking here http://milkymist.org/updates/2011-07-13/
2011-08-07 10:37 <wolfspraul> rescue bitstream? rescue bootloader?
2011-08-07 10:37 <wolfspraul> looks like 4 megabytes or even 8 megabytes...
2011-08-07 10:37 <wolfspraul> you wouldn't want to limit the growth of the bitstream that way
2011-08-07 10:38 <wolfspraul> the 8:10 will cause a lot of pain, so we better plan several of them, so that one can be completely done and mounted/inserted on the production line, and ideally never touched
2011-08-07 10:39 <wolfspraul> whereas the second one is meant for user interaction
2011-08-07 10:39 <wpwrak> bitstream plus a simple uSD loader
2011-08-07 10:40 <wolfspraul> 2 bitstreams? loader from scratch/u-boot/qi/linux?
2011-08-07 10:40 <wpwrak> maybe with the ability to read files from, say, FAT, by name
2011-08-07 10:40 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 10:40 <wpwrak> naw, for fallback/recover/etc., just pick an alternative set from the uSD card
2011-08-07 10:41 <wolfspraul> won't work if you screw up the bitstream
2011-08-07 10:43 <wolfspraul> (or the bootloader, but I would expect more risky development to happen on the bistream side)
2011-08-07 10:43 <wpwrak> e.g., do if (no_magic_key_pressed) { if (can_load("M1-FIRST.BOO") boot(); } while (!can_load("M1-SECOND.BOO")); boot();
2011-08-07 10:43 <wolfspraul> risky in the sense that it won't boot
2011-08-07 10:43 <wolfspraul> ok so we say developer have jtag anyway, can unbrick
2011-08-07 10:43 <wpwrak> i would look for a way to replace the bitstream
2011-08-07 10:43 <wpwrak> that's probably the tricky bit
2011-08-07 10:43 <wolfspraul> huh? don't understand
2011-08-07 10:44 <wpwrak> partial reconfiguration :)
2011-08-07 10:44 <wpwrak> or maybe you can even do full reconfiguration
2011-08-07 10:44 <wolfspraul> I'm practical
2011-08-07 10:44 <wolfspraul> I think some fpgas also support configuration from your beloved card now
2011-08-07 10:44 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 10:44 <wolfspraul> but again, I'm practial and don't just want to discuss for discussion's sake
2011-08-07 10:45 <wolfspraul> so what works for m1, now, as the next step... that's what I wonder about
2011-08-07 10:45 <wolfspraul> need to check whether the s-6 supports anything from sd
2011-08-07 10:51 <wpwrak> i don't think you want to change that in M1. for M1, I'd say, stabilize, bring the software into shape. then do an M2 where all the little nuisances of M1 are fixed. M2 would be the right place for that kind of boot architecture redesign.
2011-08-07 10:52 <wpwrak> for the Phuenix, you said that you'd want to drop lots of things. what parts of M1 would you want to keep ?
2011-08-07 10:53 <wpwrak> (M2) or Phuenix. if they're not effectively the same ;-)
2011-08-07 10:54 <wolfspraul> LunaVorax_: how can we make development for the NanoNote for you more fun?
2011-08-07 10:54 <wolfspraul> what is Phuenix?
2011-08-07 10:54 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I don't want to make the boot/nor change at all
2011-08-07 10:54 <wpwrak> a mixture of phoenix and Xue ;-)
2011-08-07 10:55 <wolfspraul> but one thing I can imagine is that we make a little board, or a few, to test some of those things or to develop them early
2011-08-07 10:55 <wpwrak> i.e., your cost-down M1
2011-08-07 10:55 <wolfspraul> ah no, definitely not
2011-08-07 10:55 <wolfspraul> I don't see it there
2011-08-07 10:55 <wolfspraul> for me this is about strengthening the Milkymist platform
2011-08-07 10:55 <wpwrak> (test board) yes, that's the right approach. small steps :)
2011-08-07 10:55 <wolfspraul> so I think we could make some test boards
2011-08-07 10:55 <wolfspraul> with the goal of going in that direction while maintaining compatibility with what has been done before
2011-08-07 10:56 <wolfspraul> because this kind of change will impact different parts, software, tools, etc.
2011-08-07 10:56 <LunaVorax_> wolfspraul, invent a machine that can transfer all the programming books directly to my head ;)
2011-08-07 10:56 <wpwrak> yes, of course. you can also get rid of jtag for good if you want :)
2011-08-07 10:56 <wolfspraul> that's a job for Werner, clearly
2011-08-07 10:56 <wolfspraul> he can invent such a machine
2011-08-07 10:56 <LunaVorax_> wolfspraul, more seriously, I have trouble compiling a single SDL hello world under the Nanonote
2011-08-07 10:57 <wolfspraul> maybe xiangfu can team up with you if you need help. we should have some nice little hello world apps as starting points for people.
2011-08-07 10:57 <LunaVorax_> I'll run a compile again in a few minutes to check what kind of errors I get
2011-08-07 10:57 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_: the machine will be for free. but the special headache pills will cost you ;-)
2011-08-07 10:57 <LunaVorax_> haha
2011-08-07 10:57 <wolfspraul> including a wiki page that walks you through step by step how to bring them live and add your own code to them...
2011-08-07 10:58 <LunaVorax_> wolfspraul, yes that should definitely be needed
2011-08-07 10:58 <LunaVorax_> wolfspraul, it reminds me the problem with the GP2X Wiz. It's aimed at game developers, but the wiki, docs and toolkit is insanely chaotic
2011-08-07 10:59 <wolfspraul> well
2011-08-07 10:59 <wolfspraul> I cannot, or should not, raise any sort of expectations on your side that our wiki is or will be better
2011-08-07 11:00 <wolfspraul> a clean wiki is terribly hard
2011-08-07 11:00 <wolfspraul> needs some people to basically make that their contribution to the project to just clean clean clean
2011-08-07 11:00 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: anyway, what peripherals would the cost-down M1 keep ? USB host ? uSD ? Ether ? audio in ? audio out ? midi ? dmx ? video in ? video out ? LEDs ? :)
2011-08-07 11:00 <wolfspraul> that's not an m1
2011-08-07 11:00 <wolfspraul> it's a way to broaden the Milkymist platform, bring it to new use cases/developers, without breaking compatibility
2011-08-07 11:00 <wpwrak> alright, the Phuenix ;-)
2011-08-07 11:01 <wolfspraul> I have no idea what it would keep or add
2011-08-07 11:01 <wpwrak> ok :)
2011-08-07 11:01 <wolfspraul> Sebastien floatet the idea of a Milkymist board 'around' dsp/rf/io one time
2011-08-07 11:01 <wolfspraul> so he may have been thinking about some ideas
2011-08-07 11:02 <wolfspraul> don't know details
2011-08-07 11:02 <wpwrak> byw, you could probably also trim down the M1 without losing too much. e.g., drop MIDI, Ether, maybe also DMX. use USB for MIDI and host communication. maybe there's also USB-to-DMX
2011-08-07 11:02 <wpwrak> strike the maybe :)
2011-08-07 11:02 <wpwrak> expensive, though
2011-08-07 11:03 <wolfspraul> don't understand
2011-08-07 11:03 <wolfspraul> that's not realistic, you seem to forget that m1 works today, as a product
2011-08-07 11:03 <wpwrak> http://www.enttec.com/index.php?main_menu=Products&prod=70304&show=description
2011-08-07 11:03 <wolfspraul> who will develop all these usb-to-anything dreams?
2011-08-07 11:03 <wpwrak> yes, but you want to cost-down, right ?
2011-08-07 11:04 <wolfspraul> why would it be cheaper? which prices are you comparing?
2011-08-07 11:04 <wpwrak> well, MIDI-USB is already there (in linux)
2011-08-07 11:04 <wolfspraul> in Linux...
2011-08-07 11:04 <wolfspraul> again
2011-08-07 11:04 <wolfspraul> M1 is a product that works _today_
2011-08-07 11:04 <wolfspraul> I cannot compare what works today with something that is just imagination
2011-08-07 11:04 <wpwrak> the cost-down M1 would be tomorrow :)
2011-08-07 11:04 <wolfspraul> that's not cost down
2011-08-07 11:04 <wolfspraul> it's causing insane trouble and costs everywhere
2011-08-07 11:05 <wpwrak> why ?
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> well, I just told you some examples
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> all those usb-to-anything simply won't work
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> or you start coding today? :-)
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> case changes
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> box changes
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> that's not cost down really
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> and then we need external parts
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> source from where?
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> at what price?
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> the end result may even be clunkier than an integrated connector
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> no no
2011-08-07 11:05 <wolfspraul> horrible :-)
2011-08-07 11:06 <wpwrak> you want proper usb support anyway. "we don't support this" gets boring after a while
2011-08-07 11:06 <wolfspraul> let's leave m1 as is, cost down inside yes
2011-08-07 11:06 <wolfspraul> I can only look at and compare realistic options
2011-08-07 11:06 <wolfspraul> what I talked about is another board, completely separate from the video synthesizer product
2011-08-07 11:06 <wpwrak> you only need external parts in case they're needed. not everyone needs MIDI. and a lot of today's MIDI is already USB. not everyone needs DMX.
2011-08-07 11:06 <wolfspraul> that board could meet a number of goals at the same time
2011-08-07 11:07 <wolfspraul> but MIDI and DMX are in the product now, keeping them costs me maybe a few USD / unit
2011-08-07 11:07 <wpwrak> DMX would probably be part of an expensive installation anyway. so, make it part of the cost of the $$$$ lighting equipment, not part of the $$ milkymist
2011-08-07 11:07 <wolfspraul> removing them would cost tens of thousands of USD
2011-08-07 11:07 <wolfspraul> argh no. well. those things simply won't happen.
2011-08-07 11:07 <wolfspraul> we are making a product and will polish it, software updates, marketing, etc.
2011-08-07 11:08 <wolfspraul> remove jtag-serial
2011-08-07 11:08 <wolfspraul> maybe switch from vga to dvi-i
2011-08-07 11:08 <wolfspraul> those are all controlled improvements
2011-08-07 11:08 <wolfspraul> update the video decoder chip
2011-08-07 11:09 <wolfspraul> if we switch from vga to dvi-i we of course will include adapter cables in the box
2011-08-07 11:09 <wolfspraul> and then software updates, and more software updates
2011-08-07 11:10 <wpwrak> you say you want to be "compatible". what does this mean ? will the Phuenix run flickernoise ?
2011-08-07 11:10 <wolfspraul> and hopefully 2 years later it's a much more powerful box
2011-08-07 11:10 <wolfspraul> well, we are defining the purpose of this board now
2011-08-07 11:10 <wolfspraul> so the answer depends on that
2011-08-07 11:11 <wolfspraul> oh btw, a Milkymist Two might do things like xilinx -7 or altera, ddr3, add a touchpanel on the top, etc.
2011-08-07 11:11 <wpwrak> (USB-centric M1) i think this should be a product evolution step. remove excess "fat". that is, if your market analysis shows this will help you. (financially or in terms of spreading the word)
2011-08-07 11:11 <wolfspraul> but that's after we sell a few thousand Milkymist One
2011-08-07 11:12 <wolfspraul> once you put a product out on the market, like a video synthesizer, it's about evolution not revolution, imho
2011-08-07 11:12 <wolfspraul> you cannot remove dmx as the next step, that's crazy
2011-08-07 11:12 <wolfspraul> makes no economic sense
2011-08-07 11:12 <wolfspraul> you are just building a channel and doing marketing so people value those features
2011-08-07 11:12 <wolfspraul> and you are delivering updates to them that use those features more and more
2011-08-07 11:13 <wpwrak> (M1-USB) i.e., if people bark at the USD 500 price tag and you can't bring the per unit cost down much with the present hardware design, trimming off non-essential bits may help to reach, say USD 300.
2011-08-07 11:13 <wolfspraul> you overestimate the cost of the dmx and midi parts
2011-08-07 11:13 <wolfspraul> it doesn't add up to much at all
2011-08-07 11:14 <wpwrak> you can check if people actually use DMX. if 99% don't care about it, you can safely drop it. particularly if you're nice and make sure an alternative exists
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> if I cost-down the acrylic case and make it in China that alone will bring me 10 times more than all those parts together
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> no no
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> now it's about marketing those features, not removing them
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> it will stay for at least 2 years
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> let's make that 3, or 5
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> see above
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> dvi, yes
2011-08-07 11:14 <wpwrak> of course, you will have those who complain about not having DMX in the box. but you seem to have a lot of people complaining about the USD 500 price tag today. that's overwhelmingly the #1 reaction
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> higher-performance fpga, yes
2011-08-07 11:14 <wolfspraul> ddr3, maybe _add_ a touchscreen, yes
2011-08-07 11:15 <wolfspraul> for the m1 product, think in that direction
2011-08-07 11:15 <wpwrak> (acrylic) yes, that one's pricy :)
2011-08-07 11:15 <wolfspraul> who is complaining about 500 USD?
2011-08-07 11:15 <wolfspraul> developers
2011-08-07 11:15 <wpwrak> do you have a calculation what each feature effectively costs (BOM-wise) ?
2011-08-07 11:16 <wolfspraul> well the bom is just there, easy to add up
2011-08-07 11:16 <wpwrak> yes, maybe the VJs will just eat the cost
2011-08-07 11:16 <wolfspraul> no they will demand a high-performance product that they know and that works out of the box
2011-08-07 11:16 <wolfspraul> if that's the case they will happily spend 1000 USD
2011-08-07 11:16 <wolfspraul> or whatever it takes
2011-08-07 11:16 <wolfspraul> and if that's not the case, they will not buy no matter how cheap it is
2011-08-07 11:16 <wolfspraul> that's how most people value products :-)
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> to reach those, we need higher performance in some key areas
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> MORE features, not less
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> what I'm thinking about now is a second board
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> something new
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> pcba only
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> no case
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> CHEAP
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> purpose? hardware hacking
2011-08-07 11:17 <wpwrak> you may also want to consider the amateur market. people who want cool video effects at their student party.
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> even most of those need a _working_ product above all
2011-08-07 11:17 <wolfspraul> that's why they all have Macs nowadays
2011-08-07 11:18 <wolfspraul> not known to be the cheapest notebook maker
2011-08-07 11:18 <wpwrak> oh, sure. i consider "working" as a given. like linux and proper USB. that's stuff you have to do anyway, so there's not point in discussing it from an "what if" angle.
2011-08-07 11:19 <wolfspraul> you see my point is a totally separate thing
2011-08-07 11:19 <wpwrak> what do we call that second board ?
2011-08-07 11:19 <wolfspraul> none of the m1 buyers would even compare with that 'thing'
2011-08-07 11:19 <wolfspraul> no case, as a starter
2011-08-07 11:19 <wolfspraul> no accessories
2011-08-07 11:19 <wpwrak> no, give it a name first
2011-08-07 11:19 <wpwrak> any name ;-)
2011-08-07 11:19 <wpwrak> you don't like Phuenix ? ;-)
2011-08-07 11:19 <wolfspraul> pretty crazy :-)
2011-08-07 11:19 <wolfspraul> Phuenix
2011-08-07 11:20 <wolfspraul> I'm fine with that
2011-08-07 11:20 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 11:20 <wpwrak> kewl. nobody will get the inside joke, but that's fine ;-)
2011-08-07 11:20 <wolfspraul> hardly pronouncable for Americans, I can tell you already
2011-08-07 11:20 <wolfspraul> after the Milkymist shock this will kill Jon
2011-08-07 11:20 <wpwrak> rhymes with "fun" :)
2011-08-07 11:20 <wolfspraul> EVERY american will think this is a bad typo
2011-08-07 11:20 <wolfspraul> anyway, OK
2011-08-07 11:20 <wolfspraul> so Phuenix
2011-08-07 11:21 <wolfspraul> see the goal is totally different from m1, m2, m3
2011-08-07 11:21 <wolfspraul> that's a video synthesizer
2011-08-07 11:21 <wolfspraul> we hope to reach out to non-technical people
2011-08-07 11:21 <wpwrak> ask the british what they think of the american's opinions on orthography ;-)
2011-08-07 11:21 <wolfspraul> we hope to make it the most powerful video synthesizer later, with hundreds of features
2011-08-07 11:21 <wolfspraul> there's certainly a lot it _could_ do
2011-08-07 11:21 <wolfspraul> video streaming etc.
2011-08-07 11:22 <wolfspraul> but as a product, and marketing message, we need to leave that untouched for a while
2011-08-07 11:22 <wolfspraul> it's a new brand
2011-08-07 11:22 <wolfspraul> you cannot sell a product and 6 months later disappear
2011-08-07 11:22 <wpwrak> so, Phuenix will be "compatible". what does that mean ? what sort of applications are supposed to run (in a useful way) both on M1 and Phuenix ? "hello world" ? Flickernoise ?
2011-08-07 11:22 <wolfspraul> ok, so that's clera I think. my perspective on the line of video synthesizers
2011-08-07 11:22 <wolfspraul> they will also do cost-down, but without destroying the product
2011-08-07 11:22 <wolfspraul> now
2011-08-07 11:22 <wolfspraul> there's something missing
2011-08-07 11:22 <wolfspraul> hackers are complaining
2011-08-07 11:23 <wolfspraul> hackers may not like the all-inclusive accessories list
2011-08-07 11:23 <wolfspraul> they can even buy a power supply themselves
2011-08-07 11:23 <wolfspraul> they can solder DIP parts themselves
2011-08-07 11:23 <wpwrak> (Milkymist line) keeping that one is good. would indeed be crazy to drop it. there lies openmoko, rhymes with "madness" :)
2011-08-07 11:24 <wolfspraul> which compatibility exactly - good question
2011-08-07 11:24 <wpwrak> the accessories are largely a crutch to overcome the lack of drivers. you don't really need them in the long run.
2011-08-07 11:24 <wolfspraul> we can already see within the Milkymist One/Two/Three video synthesizer line, there could be challenges
2011-08-07 11:24 <wolfspraul> imagine an upgrade to xilinx-7, or a future altera-based Mx
2011-08-07 11:24 <wolfspraul> or ddr3
2011-08-07 11:25 <wolfspraul> all that should be introduced in a 'compatible' way
2011-08-07 11:25 <wolfspraul> or SPI flash
2011-08-07 11:25 <wolfspraul> but what is compatible exactly?
2011-08-07 11:25 <wolfspraul> we can always assume full source availability
2011-08-07 11:25 <wolfspraul> one sec bbiab
2011-08-07 11:25 <wpwrak> a technically halfway competent Vj will probably not want to use the accessories for long anyway. nice out of the box experience, then put them back into the box and connect serious equipment. and then they'll hit the driver problems ;-) but again, i expect all those to get fixed with time
2011-08-07 11:25 <wolfspraul> you tell me what you think it should be, on the Milkymist platform...
2011-08-07 11:26 <wolfspraul> I need to make the product work _NOW_, because I want to sell it _NOW_
2011-08-07 11:26 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 11:26 <wolfspraul> so I don't want anybody to go through an experience like I did with buying 4 different keyboards
2011-08-07 11:26 <wolfspraul> or 10 different remote controls
2011-08-07 11:26 <wolfspraul> let's talk about Phuenix and compatibility, that's interesting
2011-08-07 11:26 <wpwrak> you want to sell it now and make it work as good as you can, given that constraint :)
2011-08-07 11:26 <wolfspraul> yes
2011-08-07 11:26 <wolfspraul> our users/buyers would want me to do that for them
2011-08-07 11:27 <wpwrak> Phuenix, let's start with the easy things. will it have USB host ? video out ?
2011-08-07 11:29 <wpwrak> (keyboards/remotes) dunno. the remote probably yes, because "generic" remotes often are quite different beasts. not sure about the keyboard. some will probably want a nationalized keyboard, with the layout they're familiar with. keyboard, even the rubber type, are usually easy to find. so it's not an item that really adds much value.
2011-08-07 11:31 <wolfspraul> very good, I just realize. We do indeed need to define something like "Milkymist Hardware Compatibility Requirements"
2011-08-07 11:31 <wolfspraul> like a list of things that a board needs to have in order to be 'milkymist compatible'
2011-08-07 11:31 <wpwrak> (kbd) and since you don't offer a choice of layouts, it becomes a (small) sales issue. because people will probably ask for their choice of layout and you'll have to turn them down.
2011-08-07 11:31 <wpwrak> yeah, "core platform" :)
2011-08-07 11:32 <wpwrak> FPGA with this or that capabilities, at least xxx bits of DRAM, etc. :)
2011-08-07 11:32 <wolfspraul> we can write whatever we want into those requirements, and refine them over time etc.
2011-08-07 11:32 <wolfspraul> but I think that'd be a start
2011-08-07 11:34 <wpwrak> since cost is a consideration, it would be good to have the BOM cost per subsystem. e.g., what does audio in cost, what audio out, what both together, how much for DMX, etc.
2011-08-07 11:35 <wpwrak> also, we should assume that M1 is mature by then, with proper linux drivers for all interfaces
2011-08-07 11:35 <wolfspraul> you and your dmx :-)
2011-08-07 11:35 <wolfspraul> let's sort the table by amount...
2011-08-07 11:36 <wolfspraul> fpga 40 pcb 20 smt 20 video-decoder 13 ddr 12 nor 11 ac97 5
2011-08-07 11:36 <wolfspraul> those are easy to identify immediately for me
2011-08-07 11:37 <wolfspraul> that's a total of 121 USD
2011-08-07 11:37 <wolfspraul> the total for the entire board is 190 I think
2011-08-07 11:37 <wolfspraul> DMX, let's see
2011-08-07 11:37 <wpwrak> DMX seems to cost USD 4 for connectors alone. they're also pesky through-hole parts
2011-08-07 11:38 <wpwrak> err no, USD 3
2011-08-07 11:38 <wpwrak> but there's probably more to it, in terms of circuit
2011-08-07 11:38 <wolfspraul> my estimate would be 5-8 USD for DMX
2011-08-07 11:38 <wolfspraul> dinner, bbiab
2011-08-07 11:41 <wpwrak> U4, U5, D6 through D13, J7, J8
2011-08-07 11:42 <wpwrak> and, unlike those expensive USB-DMX devices, no galvanic separation. may be an electrocution risk for M1.
2011-08-07 11:43 <wolfspraul> there is little reason to discuss dmx, because on m1 the video synthesizer line it will stay for good/the foreseeable future
2011-08-07 11:43 <wolfspraul> whereas on Phuenix, at least in my thinking, that's the last thing I can see there
2011-08-07 11:44 <wpwrak> your estimate of DMX BOM cost was good. 2*1.864+8*0.015+1.601+1.338 = USD 6.787
2011-08-07 11:44 <wolfspraul> ahh
2011-08-07 11:44 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 11:44 <wolfspraul> it goes back to my bank account, you know :-)
2011-08-07 11:44 <wolfspraul> I'm not suicidal
2011-08-07 11:45 <wolfspraul> but seriously, on m1 it stays, and on Phuenix I totally cannot see it
2011-08-07 11:45 <wolfspraul> let me try to think through my main goals for Phuenix (proposals)
2011-08-07 11:45 <wolfspraul> cheap
2011-08-07 11:45 <wolfspraul> milkymist 'compatible (to be defined what that is - requirements)
2011-08-07 11:45 <wolfspraul> no accessories, no case
2011-08-07 11:46 <wolfspraul> opens up new development opportunities, new use cases (something that is not yet in m1)
2011-08-07 11:46 <wolfspraul> yeah, that's all
2011-08-07 11:46 <wpwrak> (Phuenix) i'd keep at least USB host and video out. add USB in. probably drop ether.
2011-08-07 11:47 <wolfspraul> comes back a little to Xue (without image sensor, remember in the last xue iteration the image sensor was already on a daughterboard)
2011-08-07 11:47 <wolfspraul> USB yes, definitely
2011-08-07 11:47 <wolfspraul> video-out, yes
2011-08-07 11:47 <wolfspraul> drop ether, hmm
2011-08-07 11:47 <wolfspraul> that requires improved usb :-)
2011-08-07 11:48 <wpwrak> you eventually want USB in anyway :)
2011-08-07 11:48 <wolfspraul> yes sure
2011-08-07 11:48 <wolfspraul> we think alike
2011-08-07 11:48 <wolfspraul> out with all this stuff
2011-08-07 11:48 <wolfspraul> super cost down
2011-08-07 11:48 <wpwrak> audio ? video in ?
2011-08-07 11:48 <wolfspraul> but it must be a way for the Milkymist platform to grow
2011-08-07 11:48 <wolfspraul> yeah well
2011-08-07 11:48 <wolfspraul> don't know
2011-08-07 11:48 <wolfspraul> Sebastien chose the video decoder (quite expensive) to get it to work fast
2011-08-07 11:49 <wolfspraul> I think theoretically the fpga might be able to do that too
2011-08-07 11:49 <wolfspraul> not sure what that means 'theoretically'
2011-08-07 11:49 <wolfspraul> audio maybe the same?
2011-08-07 11:49 <wolfspraul> can the fpga implement what the wolfson does now for 5 usd?
2011-08-07 11:49 <wolfspraul> if yes (theoretically), what does that mean?
2011-08-07 11:49 <wolfspraul> ac97 is a standard already...
2011-08-07 11:50 <wolfspraul> there's often a tradeoff between theoretical and practical to make...
2011-08-07 11:51 <wolfspraul> if we go with theoretically possible on too many things, the board may just be dead and unattractive
2011-08-07 11:51 <wpwrak> analog in substitution may be tricky. you need at least an ADC. and a fast general-purpose ADC may be more expensive than all those specialized chips. plus, you'd need serious signal processing, also to remove all the analog domain you problems you may create
2011-08-07 11:51 <wpwrak> you could drop the video out DAC ;-)
2011-08-07 11:52 <wolfspraul> well
2011-08-07 11:52 <wolfspraul> that's why we have to focus on something
2011-08-07 11:52 <wolfspraul> and why I like the focus of the m1 product/video synthesizer very much
2011-08-07 11:53 <wolfspraul> so this second board needs to be a calculated move
2011-08-07 11:53 <wolfspraul> retain some stuff, open up new interesting development fronts/opportunities
2011-08-07 11:53 <wolfspraul> just the right balance
2011-08-07 11:53 <wolfspraul> and cheap, no case, no accessories, I think those we agree on
2011-08-07 11:54 <wolfspraul> remove old interfaces, yes I fully agree
2011-08-07 11:54 <wolfspraul> dmx, midi, ethernet
2011-08-07 11:54 <wolfspraul> all out
2011-08-07 11:54 <wolfspraul> easy
2011-08-07 11:54 <wolfspraul> but then?
2011-08-07 11:54 <wolfspraul> usb otg? even high-speed?
2011-08-07 11:54 <DocScrutinizer> roh: ping
2011-08-07 11:54 <wolfspraul> how to interface with new chips, imaging sensors, rf chips, others?
2011-08-07 11:55 <DocScrutinizer> moin wolfganf
2011-08-07 11:55 <DocScrutinizer> moin wolfgang
2011-08-07 11:55 <wpwrak> high-speed is tricky ;-) but yes, desirable too
2011-08-07 11:55 <wolfspraul> remove video decoder? that may well be the end of any practically working video-in feature, for years or forever :-)
2011-08-07 11:55 <DocScrutinizer> moin werner
2011-08-07 11:55 <wpwrak> not sure if the fpga can do it. 480 MHz ...
2011-08-07 11:55 <wolfspraul> remove vga dac
2011-08-07 11:55 <wolfspraul> hmm
2011-08-07 11:55 <wolfspraul> digital out only?
2011-08-07 11:56 <wpwrak> ubb-vga style, discrete DAC ;-)
2011-08-07 11:56 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: well yes, you will have this question for every interface
2011-08-07 11:56 <wolfspraul> that's the tradeoff
2011-08-07 11:56 <wolfspraul> performance
2011-08-07 11:56 <wolfspraul> flexibility
2011-08-07 11:56 <wolfspraul> programmability
2011-08-07 11:56 <wpwrak> mompls. need to go afk for a bit
2011-08-07 11:56 <wolfspraul> that's why Phuenix above all needs good focus
2011-08-07 11:56 <wolfspraul> sure :-)
2011-08-07 11:56 <wolfspraul> no rush on this anyway...
2011-08-07 11:57 <wolfspraul> I'm already dwelling over it for a while
2011-08-07 11:57 <wolfspraul> milkymist, second step, but how, and where :-)
2011-08-07 11:58 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: good morning!
2011-08-07 11:58 <wolfspraul> always nice to hear from you
2011-08-07 11:58 <wolfspraul> how are things going?
2011-08-07 11:58 <wolfspraul> I see you in heated discussions in other channels :-)
2011-08-07 11:59 <DocScrutinizer> sometimes
2011-08-07 11:59 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
2011-08-07 12:00 <DocScrutinizer> there are some things on this earth that make me either shout at people, or bitch like mad about what the original parents of that crap actually thought
2011-08-07 12:01 <DocScrutinizer> ;-)
2011-08-07 12:02 <DocScrutinizer> recently I had a hard time not to treat Nokia's N950/harmattan combo in the microwave or with a sledgehammer
2011-08-07 12:03 <DocScrutinizer> now I've boxed and stowed away the N950 and my mood is way more relaxed again :-D
2011-08-07 12:05 <DocScrutinizer> honestly, a "security framework" that disallows root to write files to ~user/.ssh/* (for example). KTNXBY
2011-08-07 12:08 <DocScrutinizer> then when somebody comes to teach me I am stupid as I don't understand a device with a fat printing "DEVELOPER DEVICE, not for sale!" is actually not supposed to give full root access and in the end "it's not a unix workstation, it's a user device. You don't understand the concept of user device" then the debate starts gaining temperature
2011-08-07 12:09 <DocScrutinizer> anyway, busy for preparing for camp2011 which takes over in my life in 36h
2011-08-07 12:09 <wolfspraul> nice
2011-08-07 12:10 <wolfspraul> are you still in touch with Dieter?
2011-08-07 12:10 <DocScrutinizer> not at all
2011-08-07 12:10 <wolfspraul> is Dieter still active in osmocom?
2011-08-07 12:10 <wolfspraul> he, ok
2011-08-07 12:10 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 12:10 <DocScrutinizer> don't know
2011-08-07 12:10 <wolfspraul> I was just wondering whether you all meet at the camp
2011-08-07 12:10 <DocScrutinizer> but I'm looking forward to meet Harald in radio village on camp
2011-08-07 12:11 <DocScrutinizer> https://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/wiki/RadioVillage
2011-08-07 12:11 <wolfspraul> nice
2011-08-07 12:18 <DocScrutinizer> A pity Nokia deliberately and definitely binned the idea of FOSS OS phones
2011-08-07 12:18 <wolfspraul> we get there :-)
2011-08-07 12:19 <wolfspraul> let's call it 'mobile communications device' first though, just in case
2011-08-07 12:19 <DocScrutinizer> an abomination they alienated it by forcing TC into it (see harmattan aegis)
2011-08-07 12:19 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: check this, quite nice http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-08
2011-08-07 12:19 <wolfspraul> our latest news...
2011-08-07 12:20 <DocScrutinizer> LOL
2011-08-07 12:20 <DocScrutinizer> RTFL, is this strip free?
2011-08-07 12:20 <DocScrutinizer> I *want* it! :-D
2011-08-07 12:20 <wolfspraul> strip free? don't understand
2011-08-07 12:21 <DocScrutinizer> the 3 picture cartoon, is it CC or sth?
2011-08-07 12:21 <DocScrutinizer> I.E. may I use it?
2011-08-07 12:21 <wolfspraul> oh of course
2011-08-07 12:21 <DocScrutinizer> :-D
2011-08-07 12:21 <wolfspraul> the link is right there, from Nina Paley
2011-08-07 12:21 <wolfspraul> http://www.mimiandeunice.com/
2011-08-07 12:21 <wolfspraul> cc-by-sa licensed
2011-08-07 12:22 <wolfspraul> glad you like it
2011-08-07 12:22 <wolfspraul> I had even planned on including her booklet in the m1 case, but my "Wolfgang: FOCUS!" alarm went off
2011-08-07 12:22 <wolfspraul> in the m1 box I mean
2011-08-07 12:24 <DocScrutinizer> damn cool webpage :-D
2011-08-07 12:24 <wolfspraul> we can include the booklet with Phuenix :-)
2011-08-07 12:24 <DocScrutinizer> see you are in laz0rs now :-))
2011-08-07 12:24 <wolfspraul> everything
2011-08-07 12:24 <DocScrutinizer> one of my favourite topics
2011-08-07 12:25 <wolfspraul> didn't you read the mission statement?
2011-08-07 12:25 <wolfspraul> qi goals: phone, wall computer, notebook, pocket computer, camera, machine vision, industry, medical, creative, wearable computing, mobility, education, scientific, research, home automation, networking, entertainment, fun
2011-08-07 12:25 <wolfspraul> laser is under 'scientific' I think :-)
2011-08-07 12:25 <wolfspraul> or 'entertainment'
2011-08-07 12:25 <DocScrutinizer> nope, sorry, I can't follow all that noise on this world anymore. Too much equally important and interesting stuff
2011-08-07 12:26 <wolfspraul> sure I was just kidding :-)
2011-08-07 12:26 <wolfspraul> no worries
2011-08-07 12:26 <wolfspraul> but yes we found the OpenLase project...
2011-08-07 12:26 <wolfspraul> maybe he will do the electrical design in KiCad, all software free and open etc. we see...
2011-08-07 12:26 <DocScrutinizer> I twice a year set 400.000 unread mails in my client to "status: read"
2011-08-07 12:26 <wolfspraul> that's marcan in this channel
2011-08-07 12:26 <wolfspraul> makes sense
2011-08-07 12:27 <wolfspraul> there's a lot of noise, I hope some of our stuff bubbles up over time. I'm patient.
2011-08-07 12:27 <DocScrutinizer> pretty annoying, and now even M infra just is down again, so I can't even get important updates regarding camp
2011-08-07 12:27 <DocScrutinizer> OM mail infra
2011-08-07 12:28 <wolfspraul> get off of those servers
2011-08-07 12:28 <DocScrutinizer> established it as my primary email over some 4 (?) years now
2011-08-07 12:28 <DocScrutinizer> that's the PTA with it
2011-08-07 12:28 <DocScrutinizer> PITA
2011-08-07 12:29 <DocScrutinizer> I hope I can move mail.openmoko.org one day I'm the only one still using it ;-P
2011-08-07 12:29 <wolfspraul> switch
2011-08-07 12:30 <wolfspraul> some good folks are holding up the wiki against spam flood, but I'm not sure when their willingness to mass-delete every day will be worn out
2011-08-07 12:30 <DocScrutinizer> or alternatively I'm happy to create some forwards on *my* mailserver for the other accounts :-D
2011-08-07 12:30 <wolfspraul> so the wiki is in the hands of 1-2 good fellas whom we gave admin rights
2011-08-07 12:31 <wolfspraul> but when they stop, I won't take over
2011-08-07 12:31 <wolfspraul> then we need to set the wiki to read-only most likely
2011-08-07 12:31 <wolfspraul> but not yet, they are still deleting, every day ;-)
2011-08-07 12:32 <wolfspraul> it would actually require a mediawiki update and captcha, but I doubt that will happen
2011-08-07 12:32 <DocScrutinizer> I don't worry about wii.om.org, it's mostly static now and probably somebody should eventually package it for download and local access
2011-08-07 12:32 <wolfspraul> it's not static, there is some edit activity still, and most importantly constant spam deletion
2011-08-07 12:32 <wolfspraul> if the spam deletion falls behind for 1 month or so, it's lost
2011-08-07 12:32 <DocScrutinizer> yeah
2011-08-07 12:33 <DocScrutinizer> my concern is joerg at om.org
2011-08-07 12:33 <wolfspraul> understood :-)
2011-08-07 12:33 <wolfspraul> switch
2011-08-07 12:33 <wolfspraul> are you the only user now?
2011-08-07 12:33 <wolfspraul> could be...
2011-08-07 12:33 <DocScrutinizer> mega pita to switch
2011-08-07 12:34 <DocScrutinizer> if I was the only user, it's easy, I just ask roh to change the MX record
2011-08-07 12:34 <wolfspraul> but there can't be many left, maybe some accouts, but real usage?
2011-08-07 12:34 <DocScrutinizer> yeah
2011-08-07 12:34 <wolfspraul> ok :-) well then...
2011-08-07 12:35 <DocScrutinizer> somebody could grep the mailer logs for actual polls
2011-08-07 12:39 <wpwrak> all my openmoko subscriptions are still on werner@openmoko.org, so things will all die together. anything else is now happily on almesberger.net
2011-08-07 12:43 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: looked at http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/user_guides/ug380.pdf
2011-08-07 12:43 <wolfspraul> to me looks like s-6 cannot directly configure from 8:10
2011-08-07 12:43 <wolfspraul> needs extra microcontrollers etc.
2011-08-07 12:43 <wolfspraul> that was obvious, but I wanted to check
2011-08-07 12:44 <wolfspraul> I've heard from fpgas support configure from 8:10 now
2011-08-07 12:44 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I wanted to mention one thing about the Phuenix plans, regarding video-out
2011-08-07 12:44 <wolfspraul> so we have vga only now (analog), the DAC costs 3.50 USD
2011-08-07 12:44 <wolfspraul> so far so good
2011-08-07 12:44 <wolfspraul> we have already tentatively decided to upgrade m1 to a dvi-i connector asap
2011-08-07 12:45 <wolfspraul> which would leave the vga solution as is (same dac), and route the digital signals directly to the fpga, single-link, or if there are enough pins and routing space, even dual-link (most likely will not be utilized any time soon though)
2011-08-07 12:45 <wolfspraul> if rc3 sales are slow, maybe I will expedite this dvi-i idea and already include it in rc4
2011-08-07 12:46 <wolfspraul> but I don't hope rc3 sales are slow, and since the main goal is for m1 to not run out of stock anymore, we would probably not do dvi-i in rc4
2011-08-07 12:46 <wolfspraul> now.. whenever dvi-i is there, the door is open for the implementation of a digital video-output in the SoC
2011-08-07 12:46 <wolfspraul> 'door open'
2011-08-07 12:46 <wolfspraul> once we get that working, and like performance, that would then allow us to go with a digital-only video-out solution on Phuenix
2011-08-07 12:46 <wpwrak> sounds good
2011-08-07 12:47 <wolfspraul> if we do it earlier (on Phuenix), that's risky because we are stacking multiple risks on top of each other
2011-08-07 12:47 <wolfspraul> and I rather keep our boards in a functioning/interesting state than turn them into development hell
2011-08-07 12:47 <wpwrak> you sound as if you wanted to start work on Phuenix tomorrow ;-)
2011-08-07 12:48 <wolfspraul> that would save us 3.50 USD on Phuenix and we could take the risk of going digital-only
2011-08-07 12:48 <wolfspraul> not start tomorrow, but start thinking today, yes
2011-08-07 12:48 <wolfspraul> I like this realization I had earlier "Milkymist Hardware Compatibility Requirements"
2011-08-07 12:48 <wolfspraul> that's absolutely great
2011-08-07 12:48 <wolfspraul> I will start to nag people about it :-)
2011-08-07 12:48 <wpwrak> ah, digital-only may not be so nice. VGA is still common.
2011-08-07 12:49 <wpwrak> but you can do cheap VGA, ubb-vga style
2011-08-07 12:49 <wolfspraul> I just wanted to explain the path that is already more or less planned on m1
2011-08-07 12:49 <wolfspraul> dvi-i, add digital, then develop in the SoC (who? no idea :-)), then have both as an option
2011-08-07 12:50 <wolfspraul> I will try to do this asap, even in rc4, but like I said the highest priority is to be always in stock
2011-08-07 12:50 <wolfspraul> and Adam is already working full-time, so we see when we get to it
2011-08-07 12:50 <wolfspraul> either rc4 or rc5
2011-08-07 12:50 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 12:50 <wolfspraul> I also need to source new adapter cables then
2011-08-07 12:50 <wolfspraul> so digital video out is coming (first as an unimplemented option)
2011-08-07 12:53 <wpwrak> thanks to having an FPGA, that's even reasonably risk-free ;-)
2011-08-07 12:55 <wolfspraul> the choice of adcs/dacs on Phuenix will probably be tough
2011-08-07 12:56 <wolfspraul> well we got the easy questions answered
2011-08-07 12:56 <wolfspraul> remove dmx, midi, ether
2011-08-07 12:56 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 12:57 <wolfspraul> who knows we can also just leave it there. even the same pcb, just leave some parts unpopulated.
2011-08-07 12:57 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 12:58 <wolfspraul> maybe try to improve USB...
2011-08-07 12:59 <wolfspraul> integrate the atrf even? I'm up for it...
2011-08-07 12:59 <wolfspraul> what would it take to develop a DSL modem around Milkymist?
2011-08-07 13:04 <wpwrak> no idea what DSL needs
2011-08-07 13:04 <wpwrak> and i'd need CaTV anyway :)
2011-08-07 13:05 <wolfspraul> see your nor mails, interesting
2011-08-07 13:06 <wolfspraul> Atmel, hmm
2011-08-07 13:06 <wolfspraul> that's what we used in the end?
2011-08-07 13:08 <wolfspraul> I wasn't even aware Atmel did memory, but apparently they do. If that's what we had it may not have been the best choice of manufacturer (or unlucky, as you said, because things changed after the selection, which can always happen)
2011-08-07 13:09 <wolfspraul> the little I know about memory fabs is that they are prohibitely expensive, and huge investment leads to consolidation. so pick the biggest, if you can :-)
2011-08-07 13:10 <wolfspraul> which may or may not be the case for Atmel, but I haven't heard of them in that context before (searching now a bit)
2011-08-07 13:12 <wolfspraul> he. atmel.com doesn't list parallel flash at all anymore, at first glance.
2011-08-07 13:12 <wolfspraul> maybe they sold it
2011-08-07 13:23 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: >>atben-atusb Combo   59,00 EUR \n  Elphel Eyesis   24,000 USD  <<
2011-08-07 13:23 <DocScrutinizer> WTF?
2011-08-07 13:25 <wolfspraul> yes! :-)
2011-08-07 13:25 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: you were right!
2011-08-07 13:26 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: so what do you think about it?
2011-08-07 13:26 <wolfspraul> there's a GPL discount on that 24,000 USD price
2011-08-07 13:26 <wolfspraul> don't know how much, depends on your contribution back I think
2011-08-07 13:27 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: I think it doesn't parse here
2011-08-07 13:27 <wolfspraul> it's an omnivision camera, click on the link next to it
2011-08-07 13:27 <wolfspraul> very cool thing, all GPL licensed
2011-08-07 13:27 <DocScrutinizer> either it has to be 59.00 or better 59.--, or it has to be 24,00
2011-08-07 13:27 <wolfspraul> price a little high, admittedly
2011-08-07 13:28 <wolfspraul> no the atben-atusb Combo is 59,00 EUR, the Elphel Eyesis sets you back 24,000 USD
2011-08-07 13:28 <wolfspraul> should I write it out in words maybe?
2011-08-07 13:28 <wolfspraul> both prices plus shipping
2011-08-07 13:31 <DocScrutinizer> you should stick to one locale, first instance
2011-08-07 13:32 <DocScrutinizer> either use . or , for decimal separator, but not both mixed
2011-08-07 13:32 <wolfspraul> I am listing shops/sources. The Elphel Eyesis ships from Salt Lake City, and only from there
2011-08-07 13:32 <wolfspraul> oh wait, checking
2011-08-07 13:32 <wolfspraul> believe it or not, that entire thing is GPL licensed
2011-08-07 13:32 <wolfspraul> all plans are open
2011-08-07 13:32 <DocScrutinizer> where "." means ", == thousands separator then, like in 24,000"
2011-08-07 13:32 <wolfspraul> electrical, mechanical, IC design, everything
2011-08-07 13:32 <wolfspraul> so you can build one and sell for 22,000 USD
2011-08-07 13:32 <wolfspraul> they are selling
2011-08-07 13:33 <wolfspraul> arguably the coolest piece of GPL hardware in the world, right now
2011-08-07 13:33 <wolfspraul> I think I make it 59.00, or just 59
2011-08-07 13:33 <wolfspraul> maybe just 59
2011-08-07 13:33 <DocScrutinizer> then, if you'd have used "29,999" I'd possibly not even had noticed it
2011-08-07 13:33 <wolfspraul> this was copy/pasted from Tuxbrain's shop, I didn't notice the inconsistency
2011-08-07 13:34 <wolfspraul> thanks a lot!
2011-08-07 13:34 <wolfspraul> now fixed :-)
2011-08-07 13:34 <wpwrak> i think the swiss got it right: . for separation from fractions, ' for thousands. so it would be 24'000.00, not nonsense like 24.000,00
2011-08-07 13:34 <wpwrak> or maybe the swiss use , anyway, doesn't matter, it's unambiguous ;-)
2011-08-07 13:35 <wolfspraul> I think it's good now, but you were totally right, before it was confusing
2011-08-07 13:39 <wpwrak> and now, out into the big blue room. shopping.
2011-08-07 13:40 <DocScrutinizer> alas elphel is next to illegible. Fixed linewraps of lines so long I need to scroll left/right for each one on my 1280 wide screen
2011-08-07 13:54 <DocScrutinizer> they are used to their panorama views on a 3 head system, I guess ;-D
2011-08-07 14:12 <kristianpaul> Artyom prn_code he, well, i think there is a typo somwhere
2011-08-07 14:13 <kristianpaul> and yes i have a general porpuse register to write and read, actually even a test write/read command too :)
2011-08-07 14:14 <kristianpaul> hopes that qi-bot will tell all this to Artyom when he showed up :)
2011-08-07 14:40 <kristianpaul> (touchpanel on the top) :-D
2011-08-07 14:56 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: what do you think about the Phuenix plans so far?
2011-08-07 14:56 <wolfspraul> did you read anything where you mentally say "NO!"? :-)
2011-08-07 14:58 <kristianpaul> well, ethernet drop fire that NO on on mind
2011-08-07 14:58 <wolfspraul> he, I can understand
2011-08-07 14:58 <kristianpaul> but if you include atben, well :)
2011-08-07 14:58 <wolfspraul> because you know that works today, but the usb->ethernet plans are just wishful thinking
2011-08-07 14:58 <kristianpaul> i can force the switch
2011-08-07 14:58 <kristianpaul> very wishful indeed
2011-08-07 14:58 <kristianpaul> btw where came that idea of DSL modem?
2011-08-07 14:59 <wolfspraul> idea maybe a bit too much, but why not :-)
2011-08-07 15:00 <wolfspraul> but considering that you can get a dsl/wifi router for 20 usd, it's a tough proposition
2011-08-07 15:00 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: the idea behind removing ethernet is the assumption that that board will also improve usb a lot, in whatever magical ways
2011-08-07 15:00 <wolfspraul> I agree with you that there's a reality gap somewhere in that thought
2011-08-07 15:01 <wolfspraul> so the Ethernet port may stay on, and can be removed when a real alternative exists :-)
2011-08-07 15:01 <kristianpaul> even tought i dont now.. look those usb to something cables coming from it.. soo messy :)
2011-08-07 15:01 <kristianpaul> at least a wireless solution works of the box
2011-08-07 15:01 <kristianpaul> we relly on ethernet for lot of stuff currently like netboot, patch uploads..
2011-08-07 15:01 <wolfspraul> yes I would like the idea of integrating ben-wpan a lot, let's see what Werner thinks
2011-08-07 15:02 <wolfspraul> we can also just go with my last idea up there, which is to keep the entire board the same, and just not populate some items like midi & dmx
2011-08-07 15:02 <kristianpaul> i read well (dont want to check backlog again) also jtag removal?
2011-08-07 15:02 <wolfspraul> not for developers of course
2011-08-07 15:02 <kristianpaul> ah ;)
2011-08-07 15:02 <wolfspraul> that's why I said the 'product' for users is one thing
2011-08-07 15:02 <wolfspraul> and it cannot remove dmx
2011-08-07 15:02 <wolfspraul> but it can remove jtag
2011-08-07 15:03 <kristianpaul> i tought wpwrak was about to suguest a good replace for htag :-)
2011-08-07 15:03 <wolfspraul> whereas Phuenix is on a different mission
2011-08-07 15:03 <kristianpaul> same board hum.. i tought you meant before xue like size?
2011-08-07 15:03 <wolfspraul> we are discussing :-)
2011-08-07 15:04 <kristianpaul> i mean more a rectangle? someething you can easilly hold with your hands may be?
2011-08-07 15:04 <kristianpaul> and also, you dint even talk about battery? :-)
2011-08-07 15:04 <wolfspraul> I am just thinking what makes sense, collecting feedback, thinking more
2011-08-07 15:04 <kristianpaul> sure sure
2011-08-07 15:04 <wolfspraul> I'd love to go mobile, for sure
2011-08-07 15:04 <wolfspraul> 5V supply can be hacked into a mobile supply though, I would think
2011-08-07 15:04 <wolfspraul> since there's a lot of USB battery packs, solar chargers, etc.
2011-08-07 15:05 <kristianpaul> have its pack
2011-08-07 15:05 <wolfspraul> what do you have? can you give me a url or upload a picture?
2011-08-07 15:05 <kristianpaul> http://www.voltaicsystems.com/usb-battery.shtml
2011-08-07 15:06 <wolfspraul> very nice, thanks. checking...
2011-08-07 15:06 <kristianpaul> i use it to charge nanonote, as i something forgot to charge it and when need it is off 
2011-08-07 15:07 <kristianpaul> the rf part what sebastien suguested, was TV* related?
2011-08-07 15:07 <kristianpaul> i dont remenber..
2011-08-07 15:07 <wolfspraul> output 5.5v, 600mA
2011-08-07 15:07 <wolfspraul> so you have a USB cable coming out of that?
2011-08-07 15:07 <kristianpaul> yes
2011-08-07 15:07 <wolfspraul> 5.5v could work, a little high. 600mA is a little low, I wonder whether Phuenix could start with it :-)
2011-08-07 15:09 <wolfspraul> well, a lot of confusing thoughts now, let's see what bubbles up
2011-08-07 15:09 <wolfspraul> I will start to work a little on a Milkymist Hardware Compatibility doc
2011-08-07 15:09 <wolfspraul> I think that's a good thing
2011-08-07 15:09 <kristianpaul> indeed
2011-08-07 15:09 <wolfspraul> then it's not this open-ended 'anything' anymore
2011-08-07 15:10 <wolfspraul> where 'anything' unfortunately in most cases means 'infinite work'
2011-08-07 15:10 <wolfspraul> so it's more like 'nothing'
2011-08-07 15:10 <wolfspraul> that's all not good
2011-08-07 15:10 <wolfspraul> we should have a document, and clearly say what is inside of our scope, and what is outside of our scope
2011-08-07 15:10 <wolfspraul> and then the stuff inside is supported and maintained, and the stuff outside is not
2011-08-07 15:12 <marcan> wolfspraul: I will *definitely* do the design in kicad and all the software/firmware will be free/open, that much I'm sureof ;)
2011-08-07 15:12 <kristianpaul> about all USB is not just linux missing drivers also the current softusb is not even full OHCI if i recall correctly
2011-08-07 15:13 <kristianpaul> marcan: nice ! :)
2011-08-07 15:13 <marcan> I'm kind of in the middle of a relocation and job change though, so I don't expect any progress for a while ;)
2011-08-07 15:13 <wolfspraul> Sebastien needs to help us a little with that, mostly by telling us what is easy and what is hard to add/support/modify in the Milkymist SoC
2011-08-07 15:13 <wolfspraul> then we can include the easy items inside of the requirements scope, and the hard ones are outside
2011-08-07 15:14 <wolfspraul> marcan: oh sure, no offense :-) I am just super careful in over-promising, that only raises expectations and finally will make everybody feel things failed.
2011-08-07 15:14 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.noxelectronics.de/cabstone-solar-charger-power-bank-energy-to-go-with-integrated-lithium-battery-cab-solar-charger-5-5v-1000mah/a-1063044/?ReferrerID=7
2011-08-07 15:14 <DocScrutinizer> http://www.google.de/search?q=cabstone+solar+charger&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
2011-08-07 15:14 <wolfspraul> if things are steady but going in the right direction, wow, that's awesome. that's the best.
2011-08-07 15:14 <kristianpaul> (Sebastien helps), oh sure, also that thinks like he is not going to code it, but at least point some sources and know caveats that he already known :)
2011-08-07 15:15 <DocScrutinizer> >>Cabstone Solar Not-Ladegerät mit integr. 5,5V 1000mAh Li-Po Akku ...<<
2011-08-07 15:15 <wolfspraul> we have a roadmap already in the milkymist wiki
2011-08-07 15:15 <wolfspraul> I just need help sorting things from easy to hard, then we have a start for our compatibility doc
2011-08-07 15:15 <kristianpaul> i had sees things appear in that roadmap the we're not written, so well a roadmap-like page i will say..
2011-08-07 15:15 <kristianpaul> s/sees/seen
2011-08-07 15:15 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: you think they will provide 5.5V all the time?
2011-08-07 15:16 <DocScrutinizer> yes
2011-08-07 15:16 <wolfspraul> or is it slowly going down?
2011-08-07 15:16 <DocScrutinizer> no, step up converter
2011-08-07 15:16 <DocScrutinizer> LiIon is 3V7
2011-08-07 15:16 <DocScrutinizer> still :-D
2011-08-07 15:16 <wolfspraul> why 5.5 and not 5.0?
2011-08-07 15:17 <wolfspraul> isn't USB saying 4.75 to 5.25 ?
2011-08-07 15:17 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, maybe some weird devices work better with VBUS at upper specs
2011-08-07 15:17 <kristianpaul> 5.5 because is intented to charge a battery i guess?
2011-08-07 15:18 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: when you get a chance, can you measure which voltage how comes out of your pack?
2011-08-07 15:18 <wolfspraul> Li-ion is charged at 4.2 I think
2011-08-07 15:18 <kristianpaul> oh let me try right now, i have scope jut next to me :)
2011-08-07 15:18 <DocScrutinizer> seems like dedicated VBUS step-up converters always are specified for 5V5
2011-08-07 15:19 <wolfspraul> this just reminds me that on a closer look, I have sometimes seen power supply labels saying 5.0v, sometimes 5.5v
2011-08-07 15:19 <wolfspraul> wonder what's the story behind it
2011-08-07 15:19 <DocScrutinizer> cable loss etc?
2011-08-07 15:21 <DocScrutinizer> I'd guess some simple LiIon charger circuits run into trouble to charge cell up to 4.25..4.3V when input voltage drops to <5.0V
2011-08-07 15:21 <wolfspraul> ok but that's <5.0 now, not <5.5
2011-08-07 15:21 <DocScrutinizer> cable loss, connectors, et al
2011-08-07 15:22 <wolfspraul> since the usb spec says 4.75 to 5.25 I'm surprised that it seems high-volume supplies and packs just go for 5.5 :-)
2011-08-07 15:22 <wolfspraul> "a little more cannot hurt" philosophy?
2011-08-07 15:22 <DocScrutinizer> no idea where it came from, but that 5V5 figure is rather common
2011-08-07 15:22 <kristianpaul> fiding a way to probes reach usb connector
2011-08-07 15:22 <wolfspraul> whereever it originated, was that before or after the USB 5.0 spec?
2011-08-07 15:23 <DocScrutinizer> USB5.0 ? :-D
2011-08-07 15:23 <wolfspraul> in other words - was it done on purpose for some reason (like you say cable loss etc), or was it more like "ok, this happens to work for most USB devices as well, even though it's outside of the spec"
2011-08-07 15:23 <DocScrutinizer> NFC
2011-08-07 15:24 <wolfspraul> nfc?
2011-08-07 15:24 <DocScrutinizer> not the faintest clue
2011-08-07 15:24 <wolfspraul> ok
2011-08-07 15:24 <wolfspraul> will keep my ears open :-)
2011-08-07 15:24 <wolfspraul> I can ask our power supply vendor and see what they say...
2011-08-07 15:25 <DocScrutinizer> imagines Andy would join in to this debate
2011-08-07 15:25 <kristianpaul> 5.3
2011-08-07 15:25 <wolfspraul> it's only a small difference but I am wondering where it comes from
2011-08-07 15:25 <kristianpaul> thats with no load, and from my cheap  generic multimeter
2011-08-07 15:25 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: that's what I would have thought, at the end you get a little less than the 5.5v still
2011-08-07 15:25 <kristianpaul> now lets try with scope
2011-08-07 15:25 <kristianpaul> i want see over time..
2011-08-07 15:26 <wolfspraul> so maybe the supply provides 5.5v, on purpose, because they know they want to supply enough for a usb standard of 4.75-5.25 ...
2011-08-07 15:26 <kristianpaul> note that current charge is Half not full
2011-08-07 15:26 <wolfspraul> but according to DocScrutinizer that shouldn't matter
2011-08-07 15:27 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: I've became careful, at least alert, of small differences like this one, yes :-)
2011-08-07 15:27 <wolfspraul> ignoring is always easy, I can ignore it a little later...
2011-08-07 15:27 <DocScrutinizer> yup
2011-08-07 15:27 <wolfspraul> until then I try to dig a little
2011-08-07 15:28 <wolfspraul> somehow I cannot imagine that the 5V5 became 'common' as you say before anything USB and was just 'made fit' later
2011-08-07 15:28 <DocScrutinizer> there's no use in "show me the usecase for making USB safe for arbitrary overvoltage" notion
2011-08-07 15:28 <wolfspraul> I would think it was done in full awareness of the USB spec
2011-08-07 15:28 <wolfspraul> I'm not talking about that
2011-08-07 15:28 <DocScrutinizer> I know
2011-08-07 15:29 <wolfspraul> I am curious about the difference, the reasons/origins.
2011-08-07 15:29 <wolfspraul> my guess would be it was designed like that
2011-08-07 15:29 <DocScrutinizer> just saying I've seen it frequently, so probably it's justified somehow
2011-08-07 15:29 <wolfspraul> to factor in cable loss, loss under load, etc.
2011-08-07 15:29 <wolfspraul> so that it stays within the USB range under normal conditions
2011-08-07 15:29 <DocScrutinizer> yup
2011-08-07 15:30 <DocScrutinizer> a little more is less of a problem that a itsy bit too low voltage
2011-08-07 15:30 <DocScrutinizer> than*
2011-08-07 15:30 <wolfspraul> so maybe a power supply whose label says 5.0V has the exact same 5V5 converter in it as the one that says 5.5V on the label...
2011-08-07 15:31 <DocScrutinizer> yes
2011-08-07 15:31 <DocScrutinizer> probably
2011-08-07 15:31 <kristianpaul> (upload patches) yes i know phounix is not about VJ but you get the upload stuff idea :)
2011-08-07 15:31 <DocScrutinizer> as bot will state +-10% anyway
2011-08-07 15:31 <DocScrutinizer> usually
2011-08-07 15:31 <DocScrutinizer> both*
2011-08-07 15:31 <wolfspraul> well
2011-08-07 15:31 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-07 15:31 <wolfspraul> that would bring the one that says 5.5V to 6.05V then :-)
2011-08-07 15:31 <wolfspraul> making things worse
2011-08-07 15:32 <DocScrutinizer> no, as they can be rather sure the chip won't exceed 5V5
2011-08-07 15:32 <wolfspraul> if it's designed to factor in cable loss etc. the label should probably better just say 5.0V (in this case)
2011-08-07 15:32 <wolfspraul> yes but I was talking about the label
2011-08-07 15:32 <wolfspraul> if the label says 5.5V and +-10%, it'd be misleading
2011-08-07 15:32 <DocScrutinizer> or 5.5V+0-10%
2011-08-07 15:32 <wolfspraul> I'm sure I've never seen that :-)
2011-08-07 15:32 <wolfspraul> in fact most of the time no +- %
2011-08-07 15:32 <DocScrutinizer> rarely
2011-08-07 15:33 <wolfspraul> just 5.0 and 5.5, I do remember seeing both
2011-08-07 15:33 <wolfspraul> I think I mostly got it. For now we think it's always the same 5V5 converter inside...
2011-08-07 15:33 <DocScrutinizer> on components, esp capacitors you frequently find -20%+100%, or the other way round
2011-08-07 15:33 <DocScrutinizer> ;-)
2011-08-07 15:34 <DocScrutinizer> -100% was nice though
2011-08-07 15:35 <DocScrutinizer> blowfuses also have such specs frequently
2011-08-07 15:35 <DocScrutinizer> all sorts of protective gear
2011-08-07 15:36 <DocScrutinizer> just keep in mind Vbat 4.30V to VBUS(low) 4.75V is pretty hard a living for simple circuitry
2011-08-07 15:37 <DocScrutinizer> so charging of a crappy mp3-player with a crappy usb charger might simply fail
2011-08-07 15:37 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: you've seen the pics of some of the Chinese battery packs I took apart, right?
2011-08-07 15:38 <wolfspraul> a 12 V supply charging 3 li-ion in series, etc.
2011-08-07 15:38 <wolfspraul> you can always get something in...
2011-08-07 15:38 <DocScrutinizer> while no USB device except OM stuff is supposed to break on VBUS=6V
2011-08-07 15:38 <wolfspraul> it broke at 6V already?
2011-08-07 15:39 <DocScrutinizer> it wasn't specified to survive, so if it did it was to "good will" of chips
2011-08-07 15:44 <wolfspraul> what was it specified to survive and what should it have been specified to survive?
2011-08-07 15:44 <wolfspraul> (if you remember)
2011-08-07 15:48 <kristianpaul> lol a usb cable generate a lot of fun signals even when not connected no nothing.. well air :-)
2011-08-07 15:48 <DocScrutinizer> the critical part been pcf50633 which had either 5V5 or 6V0 ABS-MAX
2011-08-07 15:49 <DocScrutinizer> for the "should" ask Andy, he thought that'S well within USB specs
2011-08-07 15:50 <wolfspraul> sounds like 'should survive' should be at least 5.5V, if that's what the power supplies are even saying they may provide
2011-08-07 15:50 <wolfspraul> if not a bit more? 5.75? 6? you tell me...
2011-08-07 15:50 <DocScrutinizer> my design rules always been to design headroom in for random other equipment to fail without killing my stuff
2011-08-07 15:51 <wolfspraul> so if the power supplies already say 5.5, that makes it?
2011-08-07 15:51 <DocScrutinizer> no, not in my book
2011-08-07 15:52 <DocScrutinizer> depending on sitaution/case you are usually giving a 5%..100% headroom for increased safety. That's pretty much heuristics
2011-08-07 15:52 <DocScrutinizer> on power supplies I tend to be generous with headroom
2011-08-07 15:53 <DocScrutinizer> on mains 220V I'd not consider to build hardware to survive constant operation at >250V
2011-08-07 15:53 <DocScrutinizer> maybe 260
2011-08-07 15:54 <kristianpaul> scope measure same, peak of 5.3V
2011-08-07 15:54 <DocScrutinizer> usually you design hw so it fails gracefully and recovers with low to no effort, from overvoltage on supply
2011-08-07 15:55 <DocScrutinizer> headroom until overvoltage fries your OV-protective circuitry should be at least 300% I'd guess
2011-08-07 15:56 <DocScrutinizer> so if you connect a 110V device to 220V it blows fuse, and then it's "safe" up to at very least 1000V
2011-08-07 15:57 <DocScrutinizer> on Neo there's no fuse that blows, there's no chip that shuts down, on 6.0V. It simply *may* die irrecoverably
2011-08-07 15:58 <DocScrutinizer> and Andy thought he might proove something by applying 12V to *one* device and diagnosing "no blue smoke"
2011-08-07 15:58 <wolfspraul> ok understood
2011-08-07 15:59 <wolfspraul> thanks!
2011-08-07 15:59 <DocScrutinizer> he didn't even bother to check if the pcf50633 chip still completely works within specs after that test
2011-08-07 15:59 <wolfspraul> you would probably like the fuse+zener we have on m1 now :-)
2011-08-07 15:59 <DocScrutinizer> heh, great!
2011-08-07 15:59 <wolfspraul> probably :-)
2011-08-07 16:00 <wolfspraul> a varistor added on video-in as well
2011-08-07 16:00 <wolfspraul> as Werner thought dmx could be better protected too. and usb probably too :-)
2011-08-07 16:00 <wolfspraul> we see
2011-08-07 16:00 <wolfspraul> I think I got the 5.0v vs. 5.5v situation, thanks a lot!
2011-08-07 16:01 <DocScrutinizer> I'm pleased to see my ranting made a difference
2011-08-07 16:10 <wpwrak> back from shopping. phew narrowly escaped the invasion of the families with kids. was already too late to escape the housewives. sunday early morning (8-9 am) is perfect. then, only misfits like myself do their groceries ;-)
2011-08-07 16:10 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (m1+wpan) sure, why not. external antenna ? RP-SMA-style, perhaps ? then you just need chip plus balun
2011-08-07 16:12 <kristianpaul> (wpan) and not forget at least footprint for increase transmit power :-)
2011-08-07 16:14 <wpwrak> (hw compatibility) maybe call it "Milkymist Hardware Family" ? "compatibility" sounds a little too strict
2011-08-07 16:20 <wpwrak> (5v5) maybe they just have bad load regulation. so you need some headroom to avoid dropping too far when the load suddenly jumps up
2011-08-07 16:28 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: increased tx power is a major design extension. needs to be built and tested first. there may be surprises.
2011-08-07 16:28 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: but yes, with the right chip, you'd even get antenna diversity. so you could, say, have an RP-SMA for an external antenna, plus an internal antenna
2011-08-07 16:33 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (regarding my NOR recommendation for gta02) atmel are a bit of an odd shop. they have lots of very different things. not sure how they got there. either lots of mad scientists in R&D or lots of acquisitions.
2011-08-07 16:35 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: back then, the atmel was the only one i could find with known good availability. i had some more on my list (see the first mail), but FIC sourcing never responded to my requests to find out if the part could be sourced.
2011-08-07 17:01 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: surprises isn't exactly the term I'd use. If your antenna is a combined TX/RX then you'll have a hard time to cut the line up to insert an amp for TX and not break RX by doing so
2011-08-07 17:02 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: which is of course why i wouldn't do such a thing ;-)
2011-08-07 17:03 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: lemme finish my brunch, then i;ll paste a few links showing the hard and the easy way
2011-08-07 17:03 <DocScrutinizer> so find some chip that has separate pins for RX and TX antenna
2011-08-07 17:05 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: I think I know the hard and the easy ways, back from my time with CiticenBand and amateur radio
2011-08-07 17:06 <DocScrutinizer> even the "easy" ways are not exactly easy, as you more often than not get issues with unwanted feedback, esp with amps that have high gain
2011-08-07 17:07 <DocScrutinizer> you can use a RF suited "switch" to bypass RX RF around the TX power amp, and you need some way to control that switch
2011-08-07 17:08 <DocScrutinizer> I could even imagine nowadays you can find amp chips that have switch and input TX sensing integrated
2011-08-07 17:09 <DocScrutinizer> also some transceiver chips have a TX-mode signaling line that can get used to control the switch
2011-08-07 17:11 <DocScrutinizer> there are some external active booster antennae that implement such booster/switch/mode-sensor circuitry
2011-08-07 17:11 <DocScrutinizer> e.g for GSM iirc I've seen those
2011-08-07 17:12 <DocScrutinizer> for wimax too
2011-08-07 17:12 <kristianpaul> (booster) links please :)
2011-08-07 17:13 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: sorry, I have to google for those links just like you 
2011-08-07 17:13 <kristianpaul> ah :)
2011-08-07 17:14 <kristianpaul> i tought you had already implemnted it ,)
2011-08-07 17:14 <DocScrutinizer> anyway for CB that design been pretty common, always attributed to "compensate for cable loss, to get the full allowable 0.5/2W to the antenna"
2011-08-07 17:15 <DocScrutinizer> for WLAN/WiMAX and GSM the rationale is about the same
2011-08-07 17:23 <wpwrak> brunch complete
2011-08-07 17:23 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: the hard way: http://atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc8340.pdf
2011-08-07 17:23 <wpwrak> all the fun is on page 18
2011-08-07 17:24 <wpwrak> a potentially easier way: http://www.skyworksinc.com/uploads/documents/201221C.pdf
2011-08-07 17:24 <wpwrak> or, even better, with an antenna switch: http://www.rfmd.com/CS/Documents/RF6555DS.pdf
2011-08-07 17:26 <wpwrak> note the built-in baluns and, at least in the case of the sky65352, DC blocks
2011-08-07 17:30 <wpwrak> and yes, the AT86RF231 has TX/RX switch control and also antenna selection outputs
2011-08-07 17:38 <DocScrutinizer> well, all pretty much in line with what I said
2011-08-07 17:42 <DocScrutinizer> and you of course "cut the line to insert amp", just it's a smart amp that has the switching built in, to bypass the TX amp for RX signals
2011-08-07 17:42 <wpwrak> yeah :)
2011-08-07 17:42 <DocScrutinizer> the rmfd looks really nice
2011-08-07 17:42 <wpwrak> smart cutting :)
2011-08-07 17:42 <DocScrutinizer> next to zero external components
2011-08-07 17:43 <wpwrak> just the way i like it :)
2011-08-07 17:44 <kristianpaul> sounds like a plan?
2011-08-07 17:44 <wpwrak> ah, here's another one that may be good. alas, the data sheet is one of those crippled ones: http://www.skyworksinc.com/uploads/documents/SiGe/DST-00405_SiGe_SE2436L_Datasheet_Rev_1_0_SF_Jan-10-2011%20(1pager).pdf
2011-08-07 17:44 <wpwrak> (ironically, SiGe have several quite similar chips with proper data sheets)
2011-08-07 17:45 <wpwrak> of course, not that skyworks have devoured sige, there's no telling what will happen with these chips. e.g., will they just be killed ? or will they complement skyworks' collection ?
2011-08-07 17:47 <kristianpaul> *g*
2011-08-07 17:49 <wpwrak> s/not/now/
2011-08-07 17:49 <DocScrutinizer> wtf, 27dBm TX
2011-08-07 17:56 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-08-07 17:57 <DocScrutinizer> I think 0.5W RF output should suffice for friggin zigbee
2011-08-07 17:57 <wpwrak> vee vil roast ze enemy :)
2011-08-07 17:58 <wpwrak> i think the RF6505 has similar power output
2011-08-07 17:58 <wpwrak> (from RFMD)
2011-08-07 17:58 <DocScrutinizer> nah, 18dBm
2011-08-07 17:58 <DocScrutinizer> iirc
2011-08-07 17:58 <wpwrak> that's the RF6555 :)
2011-08-07 17:59 <DocScrutinizer> aah
2011-08-07 18:00 <DocScrutinizer> well, anyway have fun with PCB layout for such a critter
2011-08-07 18:00 <wpwrak> a case for multilayer
2011-08-07 18:00 <DocScrutinizer> like standing with your microphone in front of the 4m high tower of PA speakers
2011-08-07 18:01 <wpwrak> it's half-duplex ;-)
2011-08-07 18:01 <DocScrutinizer> you better know your way around RF layout
2011-08-07 18:02 <DocScrutinizer> it's NOT relevant if that's halfduplex, the amp never is halfduplex, it's realtime
2011-08-07 18:02 <wpwrak> but yes, it would be nice if the amps had a little less gain
2011-08-07 18:03 <wpwrak> the AT86RF231 can output up to 3 dBm, so for 18 dB, 15 dB would be enough. don't need those extra 10 dB
2011-08-07 18:04 <DocScrutinizer> you will want to plce the transceiver plus PA chip into a nice tight can, and keep the antenna trace properly buried inside the layers and as short as possible. Also make sure you RF-block *all* other traces running into the can
2011-08-07 18:07 <wpwrak> i wonder how bad it really is. seems that the 50 mW boards don't always have a can. so maybe these are still "safe"
2011-08-07 18:07 <wpwrak> or even 100 mW
2011-08-07 18:08 <DocScrutinizer> you always can find a layout that doesn't need a can, if you try sufficient number of different layouts.
2011-08-07 18:09 <wpwrak> the SKY65352 seems to be without can. 100 mW. they have very detailed PCB instructions. i guess that's a good sign :)
2011-08-07 18:09 <DocScrutinizer> you may even find a layout that doesn't need a can no matter what changes you do to the environment setup (place device on a steel table, next to a power cable, on top of another WLAN device...)
2011-08-07 18:10 <wpwrak> just make the case big enough ;-)
2011-08-07 18:11 <DocScrutinizer> (very detailed PCB intr.) seems I've read sth like "each tiny change of those details needs a complete re-evaluation of the whole design" OWTTE
2011-08-07 18:11 <wpwrak> OWTTE ?
2011-08-07 18:12 <DocScrutinizer> tiny change is as little as replacing the input receptacle by a direct connection
2011-08-07 18:12 <DocScrutinizer> or words to the effect?
2011-08-07 18:13 <wpwrak> well, you need to "evaluate" the design in any case. there's no such thing as "open-loop" design. 
2011-08-07 18:13 <DocScrutinizer> yup
2011-08-07 18:13 <wpwrak> even though ron seems to think it exists ;-)
2011-08-07 18:14 <DocScrutinizer> nevertheless you hope your evaluation will yield OK result
2011-08-07 18:14 <wpwrak> (exists) well, outside stories of a week of black fridays in EE ;-)
2011-08-07 18:15 <wpwrak> (ok) sure. else, the merry tweaking begins
2011-08-07 18:20 <DocScrutinizer> there's nothing as funny as an oscillating power-amp
2011-08-07 18:26 <DocScrutinizer> I had a CB (27MHz) booster boc 50W based on a single electron tube with some additional passive gear and a transformer, rectifier, HUGE elco for the power supply. On turning right the power dial I got a feedback obviously from the antenna contraption to the poorly shielded input cable from CB-transceiver. The power meter needle hit hard on the upper mechanical limit which was at 100W scale, and same moment my PC, my radio clock, my 
2011-08-07 18:26 <DocScrutinizer> modem and a number of other electronics in the flat rebooted ot went crazy
2011-08-07 18:36 <DocScrutinizer> but usually you just wonder wtf your audio amp's power transistors get so hot, while you clearly calibrated the thing to only draw like 50mA quiescent current and there's no signal and not even a speaker connected to output
2011-08-07 18:37 <DocScrutinizer> then you might learn it pushes 20W out via the open end speaker cable, on 100kHz
2011-08-07 19:48 <kristianpaul> hi Artyom 
2011-08-07 19:49 <Artyom> hi kristianpaul
2011-08-07 19:50 <kristianpaul> did qi-bot give you a message?
2011-08-07 19:51 <kristianpaul> in any case
2011-08-07 19:51 <kristianpaul> 09:13 < kristianpaul> Artyom prn_code he, well, i think there is a typo somwhere
2011-08-07 19:51 <kristianpaul> 09:14 < kristianpaul> and yes i have a general porpuse register to write and read, actually even a test write/read command too :)
2011-08-07 19:51 <Artyom> yes, I've seen it couple of minutes ago in irc-log ;)
2011-08-07 19:52 <kristianpaul> good :)
2011-08-07 19:52 <Artyom> So, your test write/read command works fine?
2011-08-07 19:52 <kristianpaul> yes it does
2011-08-07 19:52 <kristianpaul> actually i implemented the HW_ID register as well :)
2011-08-07 19:52 <kristianpaul> but decide to add that general porpuse reg just in case
2011-08-07 19:54 <kristianpaul> btw i undertood from you that you dont initilize the CODE_NCO register?
2011-08-07 19:54 <Artyom> And what do you mean by "typo somewhere"? (about prn_cod)
2011-08-07 19:54 <kristianpaul> because no needed for accumlators later?
2011-08-07 19:56 <Artyom> wait a second, I will check my code...
2011-08-07 19:58 <kristianpaul> (prn_cod) yes, more precicelly i noticed namuru datasheet compared with that osgps array share some values, but not all
2011-08-07 19:58 <kristianpaul> hum..
2011-08-07 19:59 <Artyom> no, both CODE_NCO and CARR_NCO must be initialized. Otherwise these NCOs will not generate desired frequency...
2011-08-07 20:00 <Artyom> (prn_code): yes, some look the same (but for different PRN#) and some are different.
2011-08-07 20:01 <Artyom> I think correct way is to use namuru prn_codes
2011-08-07 20:02 <kristianpaul> you compared with gps-sdr ?
2011-08-07 20:02 <kristianpaul> or akos code?
2011-08-07 20:04 <Artyom> I used Numuru version in my experiments with acquisition - and it worked fine
2011-08-07 20:05 <kristianpaul> workfed fine include code detection and tracking? :)
2011-08-07 20:07 <kristianpaul> ah, you mean you took rpn keys values from namuru code?
2011-08-07 20:07 <Artyom> no, only acquisition ;) (I compared results with results from Akos code). Tracking didn't work in my case.
2011-08-07 20:07 <kristianpaul> need to get away from those 33°C today and send 3°C to wpwrak 
2011-08-07 20:07 <kristianpaul> http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/cacodes.gif
2011-08-07 20:08 <kristianpaul> ftp://tycho.usno.navy.mil/pub/gps/gpstd.txt
2011-08-07 20:09 <kristianpaul> but i dont find a direct relation yet
2011-08-07 20:09 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: seems I found a link related to a question we discussed some 4 years ago ;-D http://www.jtagtest.com/faq/jtag-ieee-1149-1/under-what-conditions-can-i-daisy-chain-jtag
2011-08-07 20:13 <Artyom> prn_cod depends on how PRN_generators are realized. (ospgs take prn_cod from gp2021 datasheet. Other prn_cod for namuru means that they made generator in a different way. Difference can be for example in the shift_register direction or anything else).
2011-08-07 20:14 <kristianpaul> yes thats truth..
2011-08-07 20:14 <kristianpaul> well you know more that i on that topic, i even cared to understand it yet :)
2011-08-07 20:17 <Artyom> So, what is the current state of your work? Still fighting with accumulators? Can you give a link to the last version of the main.c?
2011-08-07 20:17 <kristianpaul> wich main.c?
2011-08-07 20:17 <kristianpaul> osgps?
2011-08-07 20:18 <kristianpaul> yeah, still fighting with accumulators.. :/
2011-08-07 20:20 <kristianpaul> i'm not using osgps yet with namuru, actually i jsut wrote some silly commands for the milkymist bios to take care about initialization and read STATUS and accumulators
2011-08-07 20:20 <Artyom> yes, main.c for milkmist
2011-08-07 20:20 <kristianpaul> ah sure
2011-08-07 20:20 <kristianpaul> mom
2011-08-07 20:21 <kristianpaul> Artyom: https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/blob/gps-sdr-testing/software/bios/main.c
2011-08-07 20:22 <Artyom> And what is clock frequency for namuru?
2011-08-07 20:23 <kristianpaul> yes, there are two clock domains, milkymist at 80Mhz and namuru at 16Mhz
2011-08-07 20:24 <kristianpaul> 16.684 to be more prcesise
2011-08-07 20:25 <kristianpaul> https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/blob/67e3a3e31cd7f130b2f3bd32747525567f78adb8/cores/namuru/rtl/namuru_time_base.v 
2011-08-07 20:25 <kristianpaul> i fixed namuru comments to my values
2011-08-07 20:26 <Artyom> And have you recalculated NCO's frequency codes?
2011-08-07 20:26 <kristianpaul> sure
2011-08-07 20:26 <kristianpaul> https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/tree/67e3a3e31cd7f130b2f3bd32747525567f78adb8/cores/namuru/rtl
2011-08-07 20:27 <kristianpaul> all comented in evry source code, i know i must move to somwhere else, after it works :)
2011-08-07 20:33 <Artyom> as I understand you try to call namuruinit-function? Is it correct?
2011-08-07 20:34 <kristianpaul> yes
2011-08-07 20:34 <kristianpaul> and later namururstatus
2011-08-07 20:34 <kristianpaul> polling for now
2011-08-07 20:36 <kristianpaul> Artyom: time_base.vhd line 87 why you compare against 4?
2011-08-07 20:38 <kristianpaul> just curious well i'm not using sample clk anyway...
2011-08-07 20:38 <kristianpaul> you tried to generated clock for you maxim frontend from namuru?
2011-08-07 20:42 <Artyom> Good question ;) I don't remember exactly. But at first I should note that I use 80 MHz clock. And I played a little with accum_sample_enable. May be this shift (4 against 6) seemed for some reasons better to me...
2011-08-07 20:42 <Artyom> I don't use sample_clk too.
2011-08-07 20:43 <Artyom> In my case I take 16MHz from numuru and multiply it by 5 in FPGA and use 16*5=80MHz as a clock source for namuru.
2011-08-07 20:44 <Artyom> I take 16 MHz from my front-end (mistake in the previous message)
2011-08-07 20:47 <kristianpaul> so in the fpga just a single clock?
2011-08-07 20:48 <Artyom> yes
2011-08-07 20:48 <kristianpaul> and this muñtiply dont affect the sign/mag sampling?
2011-08-07 20:48 <Artyom> and async access to mcu
2011-08-07 20:51 <kristianpaul> btw wich cpu are you thinking about for purse softwre processing?
2011-08-07 20:52 <Artyom> well, I didn't think about it ;) But you are right: there are potentially some possible problems.
2011-08-07 20:53 <kristianpaul> i asked peter mumford and he said, that, "clocks. The main thing with clocks is to ensure that the correlator clock is synchronised with the front-end clock"
2011-08-07 20:53 <Artyom> As I understand DSP: if I multiply sampling freq by 5 then I should get 5 copies of the spectrum. But I don't think that it's a problem
2011-08-07 20:54 <kristianpaul> so i prefer deal with cross clock domains between namutu and milkymist that try to beat namuru with two clocks doamins
2011-08-07 20:54 <kristianpaul> and is 16Mhz too low for you MCU async memory interface?
2011-08-07 20:55 <kristianpaul> cause namuru with is avalon implementation is almost ready for that, well i think it lacks an ACK signal but thats all
2011-08-07 20:55 <Artyom> clock domains - this is what I don't know for now...
2011-08-07 20:56 <Artyom> actually mcu-fpga interface is my weak place for now :(
2011-08-07 20:57 <kristianpaul> but you have a non-soft way to test all is okay?
2011-08-07 20:57 <kristianpaul> like in the fancy way a gps simulator?
2011-08-07 20:58 <kristianpaul> or may be something more cheap and simple like a another board that mimic maxim behavior with a pattern
2011-08-07 20:58 <kristianpaul> but i guess if you can read and write all is okay :)
2011-08-07 20:58 <Artyom> I think I would try to use two possible alternatieves:
2011-08-07 20:59 <Artyom> 1. Like it is done in gp2021. One namuru channel can be used as signal generator
2011-08-07 21:00 <Artyom> 2. I have access to simple gps-simulator. May be I will try to use it too. But I don't like this device :(
2011-08-07 21:01 <kristianpaul> oh, wait you mean i can generate fake gps signals with namuru?? (even with no 10.23 atomic clock ;))
2011-08-07 21:02 <Artyom> yes, there is no problem to use one namuru channel as signal generator... I don't see any problems
2011-08-07 21:02 <kristianpaul> he, well i never tought about it..
2011-08-07 21:03 <Artyom> I read about it in gp2021 datasheet...
2011-08-07 21:07 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: (amp fun) ;-)))
2011-08-07 21:08 <kristianpaul> Artyom_: so, your current namuru software work flow is: init NCO -> set PRN LEY -> SET both prog TIC and ACCUM TIC - > SET EPOCH
2011-08-07 21:09 <kristianpaul> then keep polling status and read accumulators just after?
2011-08-07 21:09 <kristianpaul> graph it somwhere and find a peak :)
2011-08-07 21:09 <kristianpaul> i remenber from gp2021 datasheet it suguest some loop like that
2011-08-07 21:10 <kristianpaul> i just dint think yet about how to stimate a threshold..
2011-08-07 21:16 <Artyom> Last version is left on my work. My old version has the following flow: TIC periode -> accum periode -> cho_prn_key -> ch0_carr_nco -> ch0_code_nco. Then polling mcu-pin. Then reading 1. status 2. new_data. If new_data[1]='1' then output accumulators
2011-08-07 21:17 <Artyom> it's not difficult to chose threshold. You can record correlators output (better to recors sqrt(i^2 + q^2) for early, prompt and late)
2011-08-07 21:21 <Artyom> usually there is a high peak when carr_nco and code slew are close to what satellite is transmitting
2011-08-07 21:22 <Artyom> Just remember this value and compare it to the case when carr_nco or code_slew are far from what satellite is transmitting
2011-08-07 21:23 <Artyom> And choose a threshold near the peak value (a little smaller)
2011-08-07 21:23 <Artyom> Of course you can calculate this value more strictly
2011-08-07 21:24 <Artyom> You can use Neiman-Pirson law, for example. But it will demand some time to learn theory...
2011-08-07 21:26 <Artyom> it;s time for me to leave. gn ;)
2011-08-07 21:27 <kristianpaul> n8
2011-08-07 21:34 <rjeffries> wpwrak maybe you can pitch Ben Nanonote as a VGA tester?
2011-08-07 21:34 <rjeffries> http://www.embedds.com/simplest-vga-tester-on-pic/
2011-08-07 21:39 <kristianpaul> rjeffries: ben nanonote as ECG :-)
2011-08-07 21:41 <rjeffries> kristianpaul you can fund the medical malpractice insurance for wolfspraul
2011-08-07 21:41 <kristianpaul> ?
2011-08-07 21:46 <rjeffries> warning: I make no assertion this project has adequate degree of open-ness. but it is interesting (to me)
2011-08-07 21:46 <rjeffries> http://electronicdesign.com/article/embedded/QUUB-An-Experiment-In-Tiny-Computing.aspx
2011-08-07 22:18 <kristianpaul> okay i'dome of right clicks... should i use bash or makefiles ?
2011-08-07 22:27 <kristianpaul> choosed bash