2011-08-06 00:08 http://cdsweb.cern.ch/journal/CERNBulletin/2011/32/News%20Articles/1372599 2011-08-06 03:35 rc3-0x4d: after added an external pullup 10K to 3V3, still doesn't stay at a steady 3.3V level. ;-) it must be pulled low either on route loop or fpga's AB17 output failed. ;-) 2011-08-06 03:35 I now stop to check it and go for others. ;-) 2011-08-06 03:36 yeah 2011-08-06 03:36 sounds like next step for 0x4d is to replace the fpga? 2011-08-06 03:37 no, I would like to take x-ray rather than directly replace fpga, btw, i just realized that we currently no spartan-6 available though. It's out of this run. 2011-08-06 03:38 so we may need to prepare few right away. ;-) 2011-08-06 03:39 i could ask ALLtek vendor to know if have stocks next Monday and get some ones. :) 2011-08-06 03:40 the entire 0x4d case doesn't look too interesting to me actually. we are not trying to have a yield of 100%... 2011-08-06 03:40 much more important to figure out the flash and impedance issues, just move 0x4d to the end of the line 2011-08-06 03:40 sure...i am going to check others. 2011-08-06 03:41 having a few s-6 in stock is probably a good idea still, but I wouldn't stock more than 2 or 3 right now 2011-08-06 03:41 just if a very interesting case comes up, or if we really believe that a replacement can result in a sellable board, with high probability 2011-08-06 03:41 which will be rare, so 2 is enough :-) 2011-08-06 03:42 sure...so I still get them a call next Monday at least to check if they are available. ;-) 2011-08-06 03:42 okay 2011-08-06 03:43 now check 0x3e. ;-) 2011-08-06 03:52 0x3e: Impedance of TP33 (5V) is good that after took out u7/u19/u20, that was expected though. good news. ;-) 2011-08-06 04:02 0x3e: flashed successfully. 2011-08-06 04:05 re 2011-08-06 04:06 nice progess 2011-08-06 04:53 0x3e: now fully tested and rendered 10 times well. 2011-08-06 05:20 hi kristianpaul. Are you here? 2011-08-06 05:23 Artyom: hey 2011-08-06 05:23 Yes i still :) 2011-08-06 05:23 what is the time now in the place where you live? ;) 2011-08-06 05:24 How is your success with namuru? 2011-08-06 05:24 Buga, Colombia, 00:24 2011-08-06 05:25 (namuru) just realizing accum interrupt signals is asserted low just a after read starus register 2011-08-06 05:25 s/signals/signal 2011-08-06 05:26 Artyom: are you in moscow? 2011-08-06 05:27 yes, now i'm in msk 2011-08-06 05:28 i'm a bit lost, i tought accum interrupt flag had a constant rate of intterupts but seems is not.. 2011-08-06 05:29 I can explain this behaviour 2011-08-06 05:31 Accum interrupt flag has a constant rate in case when you read status_reg fast enough 2011-08-06 05:32 yes i realized that today 2011-08-06 05:32 this is correct behavoir 2011-08-06 05:32 but accumulators behave same way? 2011-08-06 05:33 or they automcatically are overwritten? 2011-08-06 05:33 Happ Qi Xi Day all 2011-08-06 05:33 https://plus.google.com/u/0/105380789526486529070/posts/JKd8kEiFd8D 2011-08-06 05:33 accumulators are updated every 1 ms. 2011-08-06 05:34 but this update is in sync with accum interrupt flag? 2011-08-06 05:34 yes, if i read faster that accum flag freq i guess 2011-08-06 05:38 yeah 2011-08-06 05:38 If you don't read accumulators within 1 ms then their value will be lost. (It will be overwritten by the new value) 2011-08-06 05:38 i'm polling accumulators right now, but results is just zero 2011-08-06 05:39 of course i dint implement the interrupt handling, thats the weekend task :) 2011-08-06 05:41 hey kristianpaul 2011-08-06 05:41 I did the same way: I used polling. ;) 2011-08-06 05:41 but i'm getting zeros.. 2011-08-06 05:41 Artyom: good to see you. We have another very active member in Moscow, his nick is kyak 2011-08-06 05:41 just fyi :-) 2011-08-06 05:41 roh: i wanted to askyou if you work with air compressed engines in your hackerspace :) 2011-08-06 05:41 wolfspraul: Good to know that I'm not alone here ;) 2011-08-06 05:42 kristianpaul: you get zeros when you read accumulators? 2011-08-06 05:42 yup 2011-08-06 05:43 kristianpaul: not so much yet.. but we got a compressor now and some tools we will install 2011-08-06 05:43 one of our guys used it to spray on paint already, and we will install some piping to have compressed air outlets at multiple workspaces all the time 2011-08-06 05:44 i think it will be used mostly to clean stuff or to pump up bike tires 2011-08-06 05:44 kristianpaul: and what about status_register? Is is also all-zeros? 2011-08-06 05:45 let me check 2011-08-06 05:46 the compressor is noisy so it will go into the cellar below the hackspace (we can still hear it) and have remote power wiring to switch it on when needed only (it has a 50 or 80 litre reservoir, so it will only work intermittently) 2011-08-06 05:52 Artyom: zero indeed 2011-08-06 05:55 so accum_enable_s is not well. let me check that counter again i think i missed the accum_q = 0 on accum_enable counter ;) 2011-08-06 06:23 kristianpaul: btw. For now I have chosen slightly different way. I work a lot with softosgps. My aim is to extract all necessary only for making tracking loops. And to make it's soft-correlator close to namuru. 2011-08-06 06:23 my aim is to understand hard-gps receivers features. And osgps is very close to hardware receivers (unlike gps-sdr or matlab gps-receiver by Akos) 2011-08-06 06:32 Artyom: you mean you want to move tu pure soft correlation? no more hardware aid? 2011-08-06 06:34 actually i was working with only osgps in the past, just that i dint realized it dint worked with complex data 2011-08-06 06:34 that was before i switched the sige fronted to real mode of course 2011-08-06 06:36 well, should be easy in theory just a net stream from acquisition core 2011-08-06 06:37 and if it localhost much better :) 2011-08-06 06:37 is that what you mean right? 2011-08-06 06:41 but yeah osgps is very close, not simd dependent, portable C code, and i guess not so cpuhungry if you want to port to the arm board you told me last time 2011-08-06 06:41 may be 6 channels? 2011-08-06 06:45 I mean another ;) I want to make in software a program that will be very close to what I want to make in hardware. This will help me to check all algorithms in software because it is much easier and then I will switch to hardware. 2011-08-06 06:45 Artyom: ah, so you already undertood the soft pll algorythm from osgps? i never did.. :( 2011-08-06 06:46 when you mean switch to hardware will not be namuru? had you in mind starting a another correlator? 2011-08-06 06:46 Oh, yes. I can give you a couple of links (about PLL/FLL/DLL) that I consider very informative. 2011-08-06 06:46 may be using PLL's like the project you point me last week? 2011-08-06 06:47 (links) sure go ahed ! 2011-08-06 06:47 i can add it to wiki later, sure 2011-08-06 06:47 for now i still making to work namuru first :) 2011-08-06 06:48 may be there is even a lib like fftw for PLL and related stuff somwhere :-) 2011-08-06 06:49 Anyway all my work is based on osgps and namuru (I don't want to invent a bicycle ;) ) 2011-08-06 06:49 good :) 2011-08-06 06:50 The project that I gave you a link is interesting for me in a way how they debug their hardware. I tried to examine the code but it seemed too difficult for me... 2011-08-06 06:53 quoting wpwrak essays, famous last words :-) 2011-08-06 06:59 in this work PLL/FLL/DLL basics are described very good: http://plan.geomatics.ucalgary.ca/papers/PHD%20Thesis_GPS-INS%20Deep%20Integration_Guojiang%20Gao.pdf (Chapter 2 and Appendix A). 2011-08-06 07:16 personally, i'm done with softcorrelation for now, namuru should work, but if a move to software based processing only it will be in the nanonote 2011-08-06 07:16 with milkymist hard aid is a must :) 2011-08-06 07:29 Artyom: i'm going bed now, getting  bachk in some hrs 2011-08-06 07:31 gn ;) I will be back after 12 - 13 hours 2011-08-06 08:56 rejon: any feedback on the news? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-01 2011-08-06 08:56 I'm almost done 2011-08-06 08:56 in the future I need to get this out little by little as it happens... 2011-08-06 08:57 but a solid roundup is still good for archival purposes and people who run into the project later, I think 2011-08-06 09:01 wpwrak: every video has a download link now :-) makes your life a little easier 2011-08-06 09:01 most pictures are a lot smaller 2011-08-06 09:01 videos smaller 2011-08-06 09:01 still a few more touches then I'm ready for feedback again 2011-08-06 09:02 I put the Elphel Eyesis up there, including its price of 24,000 USD. A super cool piece of hardware, and all GPL licensed :-) 2011-08-06 09:03 this thing is really selling to Google Streetview competitors all around the world... 2011-08-06 09:04 Elphel gives GPL discounts btw 2011-08-06 09:33 done, feedback welcome 2011-08-06 10:05 wolfspraul: yes, each item should just go out on the qihardware ping.fm account 2011-08-06 10:05 which spreads to facebook, twitter, and identica 2011-08-06 10:05 the barrier for news is too high 2011-08-06 10:05 plus, sat not such a good day to launch news 2011-08-06 10:17 true, I won't push it out today 2011-08-06 10:17 and as for 'each item', well, let's just start :-) 2011-08-06 10:17 when we meet in a few days we can make a news push out plan, so I take on some regular update jobs and you take on others? 2011-08-06 10:17 if we coordinate will be better 2011-08-06 10:18 I can push this out Monday morning, I will use the usual rss feed (don't know how many subscribers), as well as discussion (about 350 subscribers) and announcement (about 950) mailing lists 2011-08-06 10:19 from that I typically get about 500-800 readers 2011-08-06 10:41 wolfspraul: sounds good 2011-08-06 10:41 i will help push out monday morning 2011-08-06 10:42 on social media 2011-08-06 10:42 and on fab blog 2011-08-06 10:42 perfect, yes. let's do monday morning asia time. 2011-08-06 10:42 8-8, lucky number :-) 2011-08-06 10:42 :) 2011-08-06 10:42 88 million dollars 2011-08-06 12:14 wolfspraul: the "buy" section is a little weird ;-) but i see that you're carefully building up the expectations of prospective M1 buyers ;-) 2011-08-06 12:14 why is it weird? it lists available products, with links to shops 2011-08-06 12:14 (download link) excellent !! 2011-08-06 12:15 well, thanks for reporting 2011-08-06 12:15 that's really helpful 2011-08-06 12:15 well, atben/atusb are two similar but different products. and more confusingly, you usually need them as a pair - and indeed there's a combo :) 2011-08-06 12:15 small details that actually improve something :-) 2011-08-06 12:15 and of course the eyesis is a little freakish ;-) 2011-08-06 12:15 that's why it's listed together 2011-08-06 12:16 we can change the price to the combo price 2011-08-06 12:16 not freakish at all 2011-08-06 12:16 I don't care how many people ignore Elphel, or how weird the founder is. Can you believe that they do really high-tech GPL licensed hardware since 2001? 2011-08-06 12:16 and that they give 'gpl discounts' :-) 2011-08-06 12:16 I think that's all very cool 2011-08-06 12:16 and these products are real, they are selling 2011-08-06 12:16 if you put the combo price and write "atben+atusb" or maybe even "... combo", that would work, yes 2011-08-06 12:19 (elphel) oh, they're cool, no doubt about it. but it's still a little outlandlish in this comparison. sort of: "bicycle, scooter, monthly pass for the train, space shuttle" 2011-08-06 12:19 the Elphel Eyesis would be a nice purchase for a university who really wants to push forward on copyleft high-tech 2011-08-06 12:19 yes 2011-08-06 12:19 :-) 2011-08-06 12:19 I would put a GPL licensed space shuttle there, definitely 2011-08-06 12:22 what can you do with an Elphel? 2011-08-06 12:23 for instance stuff that doesn't involve spying someone 2011-08-06 12:23 it's a camera 2011-08-06 12:23 hmm, and what does "slow fidelity" mean ? reluctantly behaving decently ? sounds like the kind of expression rejon would dig up ;-) 2011-08-06 12:23 all from him 2011-08-06 12:23 an Elphel is a camera, first of all 2011-08-06 12:23 gnutoo: not spying ? where's all the fun in it then ? :) 2011-08-06 12:23 Aptina CMOS sensor, hooked up to an fpga, hooked up to a regular (sort-of) CPU 2011-08-06 12:23 hah, knew it ! ;-)) 2011-08-06 12:24 the CPU is running Linux, the fpga is running a GPL licensed IC design, and the electrical design is published under gpl as well 2011-08-06 12:26 "slow fidelity" is confusing for me. at first, it reads a bit like "slow trust", i.e., "initial distrust/scepticism that's overcome with time" (which would kinda make sense), but when i go into the proper definition of the word, the construct doesn't really make sense 2011-08-06 12:30 aobut the elphel camera, I always wondered what could be done with it that don't involve spying people 2011-08-06 12:31 I don't understand your question 2011-08-06 12:31 you mean every camera can 'spy on people'? what is your definition of 'spy'? 2011-08-06 12:31 like putting the camera in a street 2011-08-06 12:31 I just walked you through the design :-) Aptina CMOS sensor hooked up to fpga (xilinx-3) hooked up to CPU 2011-08-06 12:31 for instance law enforcement etc... 2011-08-06 12:31 "observe without the observer being clearly evident" ;-) 2011-08-06 12:32 or monitoring licenses plates of cars 2011-08-06 12:32 well I still don't understand the question 2011-08-06 12:32 yes afaik a lot of high-speed traffic control cameras use fpgas as well 2011-08-06 12:32 theses 2 things are spying 2011-08-06 12:33 let's ban all cameras. people can do evil things with them. 2011-08-06 12:33 and let's not forget cable binders. very evil. 2011-08-06 12:33 GNUtoo|laptop: I can try to honestly answer your questions, but I need to understand them first :-) 2011-08-06 12:33 needless to say, kitchen knives have to go, too. 2011-08-06 12:33 and hot coffee. too easily weaponized. 2011-08-06 12:34 because the elphel camera looks like one that you put in a street 2011-08-06 12:34 because I don't see who from the community would buy such thing 2011-08-06 12:35 I'm not saying it's bad 2011-08-06 12:35 if you have such concerns, don't you think making a camera in a GPL licensed electrical design and with a GPL licensed IC design is a good thing? 2011-08-06 12:35 in fact, anything involving heat or fire. or cables you could use to strangle someone. so no fridge either. a sandwich kept at room temperature laced with preservatives is perfectly suitable food for anyone. 2011-08-06 12:35 I'm trying to understand what good things it can be used for 2011-08-06 12:35 Elphel has nothing to do with 'spying', although it is quite possible that some of their customers are 'spying' (I am unable to define that right now) 2011-08-06 12:35 well 2011-08-06 12:35 a camera :-) 2011-08-06 12:36 it's a camera you can log into with SSH, and control a lot of the hardware with PHP 2011-08-06 12:36 ah in ephel.com I see that the camera are a lot smaller than I tought 2011-08-06 12:36 ok 2011-08-06 12:36 and if you wnat to go pro, you can edit the IC design that is processing the raw data stream from the Aptina sensor 2011-08-06 12:36 can you do stuff with gstreamer? 2011-08-06 12:36 I think it can feed into it, probably 2011-08-06 12:36 wow nice 2011-08-06 12:37 they also had a hardware Ogg Theora encoder working in older models, but nobody cared so they stopped maintaining and improving it 2011-08-06 12:37 ah ok 2011-08-06 12:38 I really wonder what cool hacks can be done with it 2011-08-06 12:38 the one thing that would be really good for Elphel, and us, is if they would get more support on upstreaming stuff 2011-08-06 12:38 or cool stuff 2011-08-06 12:38 but I'm unable to help them on that as well, too much work 2011-08-06 12:38 well 2011-08-06 12:39 building upon your earlier question, one 'cool stuff' would be if a government mandated a 100% free and open design for all their traffic control cameras 2011-08-06 12:40 that way we could make sure that the data is only used for calculating a toll (for example), rather than for building a complete movement database for later data mining 2011-08-06 12:40 unless you think all cameras are bad, toll roads are bad, etc. then we don't need Elphel indeed. 2011-08-06 12:40 and also not Aptina, I guess 2011-08-06 12:40 or Omnivision 2011-08-06 12:41 Elphel's customer base is very diverse 2011-08-06 12:41 yes, the message of upstreaming stuff is hard to spread 2011-08-06 12:41 from farmers watching grapes grow and ripen 2011-08-06 12:41 to submarines 2011-08-06 12:41 to tanks 2011-08-06 12:41 to dentists 2011-08-06 12:42 ok 2011-08-06 12:42 for farmers it's nice 2011-08-06 12:42 (news) nit-picking ... if you can insert a line break in a list without the list looking weird, it may be a good idea to put line breaks between distinct focal points in one item. e.g., before "Earlier" in the mico32 core release. 2011-08-06 12:42 tanks are less nice 2011-08-06 12:44 http://www3.elphel.com/importwiki?title=Research 2011-08-06 12:44 nice 2011-08-06 12:45 under-ice imaging wow 2011-08-06 12:45 robotics can be a good usage too 2011-08-06 12:48 wow high altitude baloon, that's great too 2011-08-06 12:48 also it could be used for scientific purposes 2011-08-06 12:48 for instance bird watching 2011-08-06 12:48 anyway I already have a free software/free-but-not-copyleft camera 2011-08-06 12:49 which one? 2011-08-06 12:49 the bug2.0 + its camera module 2011-08-06 12:49 s/camera/hardware camera/ 2011-08-06 12:49 the two important elements Elphel adds to the free part is the image processing in the fpga, as well as the free electrical design 2011-08-06 12:49 ok 2011-08-06 12:49 nothing against your bug2.0, just saying :-) 2011-08-06 12:50 and Elphel is known for high-tech, stereoscopic cameras, omnivision cameras (eyesis), etc. 2011-08-06 12:50 the bug 2.0 is a standard omap + modules(like camera gps etc...) 2011-08-06 12:50 bookscanning cameras 2011-08-06 12:50 bookscanning is great 2011-08-06 12:50 could be used for gutinberg project 2011-08-06 12:52 Elphel 323 is a special bookscanning camera 2011-08-06 12:52 ok 2011-08-06 12:53 wpwrak: combo, line break before 'earlier' - added 2011-08-06 12:53 the reason I like Elphel and I believe it's deeply in copyleft hardware land is because of their extensive and innovative use of lots of free software to drive the performance of their cameras 2011-08-06 12:54 if you build a breakout board of a proprietary IC, even if you publish the (very simple) schematics in Eagle, so what. maybe that's 'a drop' of copyleft hardware 2011-08-06 12:54 compared to that Elphel is more like a river :-) 2011-08-06 12:55 of course they could do much better, unfortunately the collaboration with other folks is lacking, partially because of the stallman-like personality of the founder 2011-08-06 12:55 imho 2011-08-06 12:55 ok 2011-08-06 12:55 I saw their GPL agreement, that's very nice 2011-08-06 12:56 he's a perfectionist, and has to do everything himself 2011-08-06 12:56 ok 2011-08-06 12:56 mechanical, layout, electrical, entire software stack 2011-08-06 12:56 he's even innovating on PCB production techniques 2011-08-06 12:56 wow 2011-08-06 12:56 but working for him or with him must be a pain :-) 2011-08-06 12:56 ok 2011-08-06 12:59 I'll go out, bbl 2011-08-06 13:00 wpwrak: if you have more linebreaks or anything else, let me know 2011-08-06 13:00 currently release is planned for Monday morning 2011-08-06 13:00 from my side it's finished unless I get feedback 2011-08-06 13:10 i would still make some of the images smaller. but maybe that's just me :) btw, instead of resizing, you can also cut out the central part. e.g., a thumbnail of adam's table could show less keyboard and monitor 2011-08-06 13:11 (copyleft hardware explained) nice idea for a section ! that captures it very well 2011-08-06 13:12 thanks 2011-08-06 13:12 it was 'copyleft hardware theory' first 2011-08-06 13:12 but then I thought that's a real downer 2011-08-06 13:12 then some other even worse ideas, finally 'explained' 2011-08-06 13:13 added a few more line breaks, same idea as above (if I understood it right) 2011-08-06 13:15 for a proper "theory" section, there would have to be a few differential equations ;-) 2011-08-06 13:18 (line breaks) very nice ! they also increase the vertical text size a little, improving the text/image size balance. "Yi Zhang finished the Milkymist One box design" is still a bit lost between images, but i can't think of a quick fix :-( 2011-08-06 13:19 since you have jon's talk twice (once the video, then the slides), maybe put a pointer from video to slides ? or maybe even in both directions ? 2011-08-06 13:21 wolfspraul: btw, do you use "Free" to disambiguate from "gratis but that's all you get" ? 2011-08-06 13:25 for the packageology, maybe a few introductory words would be good. e.g., "The names of component packages are often confusing and vary among manufacturers. This is Werner's first step (for small logic gates) towards a packageology." 2011-08-06 13:26 alright, one by one 2011-08-06 13:26 I try to stay away from ambiguous use of free 2011-08-06 13:26 so mostly I say 'free software', then it should be clear 2011-08-06 13:27 should :-) 2011-08-06 13:27 if I have to make a point I say free-as-in-beer or free-as-in-speech 2011-08-06 13:27 but that's ugly 2011-08-06 13:27 maybe I start to use libre more, don't know 2011-08-06 13:29 for the anatomy of a datasheet, how about "Some data sheets don't contain all the information necessary to make Copyleft Hardware. Here is Werner's anatomy of a datasheet." 2011-08-06 13:29 (i.e., include a problem statement) 2011-08-06 13:31 (free) yeah, i was asking because of the "free scripted CAD tools". i'm sure there's a lot of "FREE CAD !!! DOWNLOAD 3 DAYS TRIAL VERSION NOW !!!" 2011-08-06 13:34 (registration - with e-mail verification - required, naturally) 2011-08-06 13:36 linked jon's video and slides (slides point to video media page because the video above has no section entry) 2011-08-06 13:36 changed some text, more now 2011-08-06 13:37 well ok, what do you propose? software libre scripted CAD tools? nah 2011-08-06 13:37 scripted libre CAD tools? 2011-08-06 13:37 I think they will stay away from libre, so libre seems a safe choice. 2011-08-06 13:38 but I never used it before :-) 2011-08-06 13:38 only my recent openoffice apt-get update forced me to now launch 'libreoffice' instead of 'ooffice' 2011-08-06 13:38 I feel so libre 2011-08-06 13:39 i tend to just capitalize "Free" in mid-sentence when i want to emphasize the nature 2011-08-06 13:39 btw, thanks a lot for helping me with introductions to your short little essays there 2011-08-06 13:40 I think they are very valuable and important, and those intros help a lot 2011-08-06 13:40 writing headlines for your little gem posts is not easy, unless I just copy/paste the subject line of your mail :-) 2011-08-06 13:40 or else it would require deep thinking... 2011-08-06 13:40 being the self-serving bastard i am, i'm always happy to help people like my stuff better ;-) 2011-08-06 13:41 capitalized free, phew 2011-08-06 13:41 that's cheap, but ok 2011-08-06 13:41 wanna do that? 2011-08-06 13:41 just look at your example above :-) 2011-08-06 13:41 you already capitalized it all 2011-08-06 13:41 it's simple and reasonably common :) 2011-08-06 13:41 FREE CAD !!! ... 2011-08-06 13:42 done 2011-08-06 13:42 naw, FREE != Free. also, i wouldn't trust on "Free" working at the beginning of a sentence or in a title :) 2011-08-06 13:43 do you want to mention that navigation board project that's looking for someone to put it into a ben ? http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-June/008344.html 2011-08-06 13:44 ok I moved it to 08-08, the release date http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-08 2011-08-06 13:44 hehe :) 2011-08-06 13:44 I don't want to mention it :-) 2011-08-06 13:44 if you do, you have to overcome the power of the 'edit' buttons... 2011-08-06 13:44 I first want to see someone actually using it 2011-08-06 13:45 need some more proof of life :-) 2011-08-06 13:45 ok. just wondered if you has overlooked it or if you intentionally didn't mention it. 2011-08-06 13:46 not overlooked 2011-08-06 13:47 I'm not against it, but again. I want to see some software power, somewhere. 2011-08-06 13:47 where is it? I don't know. Maybe I haven't searched enough. 2011-08-06 13:47 who is developing? (the software) 2011-08-06 13:48 we could list a thousand boards from sparkfun that someone 'could' hookup to the Ben, with UBB 2011-08-06 13:48 who is doing it? 2011-08-06 13:48 if there is a video, that'd be cool 2011-08-06 13:48 or some software, some app that uses it 2011-08-06 13:48 (who's nehin the nav board) don't remember. the thing has been around for a while for gta02. not sure if people are actually using it. 2011-08-06 13:48 yep 2011-08-06 13:48 :-) 2011-08-06 13:48 but i suppose at lesat the developers have some use for it ;-) 2011-08-06 13:49 they have a history of soldering together badly broken boards and then get stuck in software land, mostly at the very beginning 2011-08-06 13:49 our openmoko distributors ought to know :) 2011-08-06 13:50 so to me it's an obscure board, is it really available? anybody already developed ANYTHING for it? 2011-08-06 13:50 I much much rather spend some time to document our connections to Arduinos better 2011-08-06 13:50 avrdude, all that 2011-08-06 13:51 those are high quality boards, readily available, large existing user base and active development 2011-08-06 13:51 heh, avrdude, ride into obscuristan ;-) 2011-08-06 13:51 that's my thinking 2011-08-06 13:51 oh no 2011-08-06 13:51 not on my end 2011-08-06 13:51 the file /etc/avrdude.conf is quite something to behold. a worthy match for sendmail.cf :) 2011-08-06 13:52 avrdude and friends as well as anything atben/atusb related is core stuff for me 2011-08-06 13:52 dirtpan! 2011-08-06 13:52 :-) 2011-08-06 13:52 so anyway 2011-08-06 13:52 the navigation board is too obscure for me 2011-08-06 13:53 I need to see a lot more software, development, and proof of it. which I think we will never get :-) 2011-08-06 13:54 pity that you didn't follow up with this. he may think it's supposed greatness self-explaining :) 2011-08-06 15:26 wonder if chdk do hardware reverse eng as well 2011-08-06 15:27 but nah, no sense if canon manufacture its own CMOS stuff.. 2011-08-06 15:28 hi kristianpaul I've a CHDK camera 2011-08-06 15:28 first CHDK is not an OS 2011-08-06 15:28 it's an application on top of cannon OS 2011-08-06 15:28 yes i know 2011-08-06 15:28 but it frees ! 2011-08-06 15:28 ok 2011-08-06 15:29 it unlock some possibilities 2011-08-06 15:29 yeah, is in the name no? 2011-08-06 15:29 but for me it's not sufficent since it doens't replace cannon OS 2011-08-06 15:29 oh, sure i think a lot fo people said same thing when gnutools ran on unix ;) 2011-08-06 15:30 i mean, if okay think like that... but afaik i cant affor a ephel camera for example 2011-08-06 15:30 ? 2011-08-06 15:30 anyway, is there any news about your free GPS stack? 2011-08-06 15:30 in the 8-8 news yes 2011-08-06 15:30 neither do I 2011-08-06 15:30 but maybe you could ask them one for free 2011-08-06 15:31 nah 2011-08-06 15:31 ok 2011-08-06 15:31 no worth, at least i'm willing some improvment with it, wich is not case right now 2011-08-06 15:31 you'll would have to had a use of it and make a cool project with it or contribute to it in some ways to get one tough 2011-08-06 15:31 s/'ll// 2011-08-06 15:32 GNUtoo|laptop: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-08#Milkymist 2011-08-06 15:32 but I've something cool that does camera 2011-08-06 15:32 it's a bit buggy unfortunately 2011-08-06 15:32 it's a bug 2.0 2011-08-06 15:32 what res? 2011-08-06 15:32 let me look 2011-08-06 15:33 it's a high res, but may not be high enough for you 2011-08-06 15:33 have a number? 2011-08-06 15:33 does it have optical zoom? :-) 2011-08-06 15:33 wait a sec....my connection is slow 2011-08-06 15:33 no zoom 2011-08-06 15:33 sure sure 2011-08-06 15:33 http://wiki.buglabs.net/index.php/Software:Camera_Module_V4L2_Usage 2011-08-06 15:34 2048x1536 2011-08-06 15:34 is the maximum resolution 2011-08-06 15:34 not bad 2011-08-06 15:35 the camera driver is a bit buggy tough 2011-08-06 15:35 so sometimes it crash 2011-08-06 15:35 but it's definitely software 2011-08-06 15:35 and the bug 2.0 is far better than the 1.x versions 2011-08-06 15:35 I never had to send it back 2011-08-06 15:35 well, i broke my current canon camera, but i think i'll buy another cheap one for sure as chdk run on it is okay 2011-08-06 15:35 ok 2011-08-06 15:36 hmmm: nanonote cannot do camera and milkymist can but isn't that portable, right? 2011-08-06 15:36 wpwrak wolfspraul the draft of qi-hardware news looks good. one suggestion for improvement 2011-08-06 15:37 GNUtoo|laptop: abour free gps stack news, i had abeen able to detetect signal but not tracking afaik.. 2011-08-06 15:37 ok 2011-08-06 15:37 add a short descripition of what ATben and ATusb are. mention 802.15.4 radio 2011-08-06 15:37 will you continue to work on it? 2011-08-06 15:37 currently and as news 8-8 points i had ported namuru wich is like a free DSP that could help 2011-08-06 15:38 oh, sure, absolutelly 2011-08-06 15:38 wow nice 2011-08-06 15:38 i dont give up easilly :) 2011-08-06 15:38 mtion gola is eventual 6LoWpan protocol support, can be used in Internet of Things (IoT) 2011-08-06 15:38 lol ok 2011-08-06 15:38 btw are you good with openwrt porting? 2011-08-06 15:38 I don't know openwrt at all, I only know how to compile it, and I'm weak in Makefiles 2011-08-06 15:38 but I'm good at openembedded 2011-08-06 15:38 i have an idea but i dont have time to deploy it, and is mostly softwar related task 2011-08-06 15:39 wpwrak the writeup in this newsletter assumes one knows what the ATben and ATusb do and what they are used for 2011-08-06 15:39 GNUtoo|laptop: can you port osgps code as it is to oe' 2011-08-06 15:39 ? 2011-08-06 15:39 what's osgps? 2011-08-06 15:39 osgps is hosted on sf.net 2011-08-06 15:39 yes I could 2011-08-06 15:40 altough to which openembedded should I port? 2011-08-06 15:40 the old or the new one? 2011-08-06 15:40 osgps is a software correlator and receiver for processing gps raw signals 2011-08-06 15:40 ah... 2011-08-06 15:40 well 2011-08-06 15:40 the old one is easier 2011-08-06 15:40 there is thisjlime that run in the nanonote, but i dunno how activelly is maintained 2011-08-06 15:40 since I didn't succeed yet at compiling the new one(based on yocto) 2011-08-06 15:40 i think they we're moving to upstream 2011-08-06 15:40 thats why i pointed osgps 2011-08-06 15:40 so I'll talk to jlime people 2011-08-06 15:41 I'll duck duck go osgps 2011-08-06 15:41 GNUtoo|laptop: http://sourceforge.net/projects/osgps/ 2011-08-06 15:41 GNUtoo|laptop: http://home.earthlink.net/~cwkelley/ 2011-08-06 15:41 ok 2011-08-06 15:42 I'm already at the sf page 2011-08-06 15:42 i had that idea since time ago, but i dont wanted to get ditracted 2011-08-06 15:42 wolfspraul rejon this phrase does not communicate meaning (to me) "slow fidelity on the freedom channel" 2011-08-06 15:42 but my connection is very slow 2011-08-06 15:42 and even worse, I'll have no permanant internet in the next days 2011-08-06 15:42 basically I've a far wifi + a vpn 2011-08-06 15:43 and i think with last wpwrak discoveries about sd-like controller in the nanonote, we could sample raw data coming from the gps fronted and stream it to osgps by loopback interface 2011-08-06 15:43 just i dont want to get distracted up to that yet.. 2011-08-06 15:43 first finish namuru support in software side :) 2011-08-06 15:43 ok 2011-08-06 15:43 you want it to compile for the jlime under nanote right? 2011-08-06 15:43 if I do it, will someone do the tests? 2011-08-06 15:44 because I've non nanonote 2011-08-06 15:44 ah.. i forgot, i tught you had one already :) 2011-08-06 15:44 well i can test yes, that dont take too much time 2011-08-06 15:44 ok 2011-08-06 15:44 else I could ask someone else to test 2011-08-06 15:45 rjeffries: let's see what rejon thinks. I love it. Communicates a lot of meaning. 2011-08-06 15:45 also i wonder how it sell will perform,  fit display.. i have some dump for offline testing 2011-08-06 15:46 I'll catch up tomorrow... 2011-08-06 15:46 GNUtoo|laptop: so yes, thats something i wanted to do as another alternative for the gps free stack.. so if you can help will me awesome :) 2011-08-06 15:46 wolfspraul what does that line of poetry mean to you? I am serious it has a nice ring, but doies not mean anything. ;) 2011-08-06 15:47 I can try 2011-08-06 15:47 but I guarantee nothing 2011-08-06 15:48 osgps is just ansi C90, and a minor asm code that is not used by default and no need in the fure 2011-08-06 15:48 I'm not even sure to have the time to do it but if I do I'll try 2011-08-06 15:48 fure/future 2011-08-06 15:48 no rush just saying as you initially asked for news :-) 2011-08-06 15:48 wolfspraul by the way, different topoiuc, as to ATben ATusb, I noticed that later in the document there is a good description. but at first mention as news item, descripotion assumes the reader knows what they are 2011-08-06 15:49 ok 2011-08-06 15:50 it's dead simple 2011-08-06 15:50 oe_runmake works 2011-08-06 15:51 :-) 2011-08-06 15:51 I got it for arm 2011-08-06 15:51 you need mips tough 2011-08-06 15:51 yes 2011-08-06 15:51 it compile on my yeeloong so i will on the nanonote 2011-08-06 15:52 actually i dint cross compiled as the current openwrt toolchain is for x86_64 :( 2011-08-06 15:52 so I guess I neeed to cross compile a jlime image 2011-08-06 15:52 s/i/it 2011-08-06 15:52 that require some space 2011-08-06 15:52 I'll have to make some space.... 2011-08-06 15:53 or 2011-08-06 15:53 wait 2011-08-06 15:53 i'm okay with binaries 2011-08-06 15:53 I've no mips toolchain 2011-08-06 15:53 ;) 2011-08-06 15:53 so I've to cross compile an image 2011-08-06 15:53 then I do that: 2011-08-06 15:53 bitbake devshell 2011-08-06 15:53 it create a devshell in tmpdir/deploy/addon/ 2011-08-06 15:54 you source it 2011-08-06 15:54 you go into the osgps dir 2011-08-06 15:54 and type: 2011-08-06 15:54 oe_runmake 2011-08-06 15:54 wait some seconds 2011-08-06 15:54 and then you get a binary 2011-08-06 15:54 this oe_runmake is new isnt? 2011-08-06 15:54 looks very handy 2011-08-06 15:54 no 2011-08-06 15:55 oh 2011-08-06 15:55 :) 2011-08-06 15:55 it's a wrapper to make 2011-08-06 15:55 like make CC= LD= etc... 2011-08-06 15:55 with the right gcc the right -I etc... 2011-08-06 15:55 it's part of the devshell.... 2011-08-06 15:56 since the Makefile is written correctly the result is that: 2011-08-06 15:56 file SoftOSGPS => SoftOSGPS: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.16, not stripped 2011-08-06 15:58 hum 2011-08-06 15:58 so I could schedule a build for you 2011-08-06 15:58 after compiling om-gta02 images with the new oe 2011-08-06 15:58 sure no hurry 2011-08-06 15:59 else if you have a fast enough x86 I can help you to do it 2011-08-06 15:59 it's not that hard 2011-08-06 15:59 maybe there is even a faster way: bitbake devshell directly without the image 2011-08-06 15:59 and if there are no huge deps it should work 2011-08-06 15:59 that'll keep the space usage minimal 2011-08-06 16:00 s/minimal/low/ 2011-08-06 16:00 if do it here. it will be a openwrt minimal build i think.. 2011-08-06 16:02 then use openwrt toolchain to compile that 2011-08-06 16:02 I've no idea how tough 2011-08-06 16:02 all I can offer is binary+howto or binaries+recipe 2011-08-06 16:02 for openwrt? ;) 2011-08-06 16:02 (kidding) 2011-08-06 16:02 for whatever 2011-08-06 16:03 let me look 2011-08-06 16:03 it only depends on libc: 2011-08-06 16:03 oh really. yes openwrt will be nice ! 2011-08-06 16:03 0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library: [libm.so.6] 2011-08-06 16:03 0x00000001 (NEEDED)                     Shared library: [libc.so.6] 2011-08-06 16:03 so the binary will work on openwrt if openwrt uses eglibc/glibc 2011-08-06 16:04 if it doesn't it won't work 2011-08-06 16:04 yes, a openwrt makefile/feed whatever will be nice 2011-08-06 16:04 but I don't know how to make openwrt Makefiles 2011-08-06 16:04 also i can reuse it and try on milkymist ;) 2011-08-06 16:04 I can only make a compatible package 2011-08-06 16:05 compatibl with openwrt? 2011-08-06 16:05 I mean a binary that would run on openwrt 2011-08-06 16:05 what does openwrt uses as libc? 2011-08-06 16:05 ulibc? 2011-08-06 16:05 are you sure? 2011-08-06 16:05 no :( 2011-08-06 16:05 because I will have to build something close to openwrt 2011-08-06 16:06 like micro-uclibc distro 2011-08-06 16:06 :/ 2011-08-06 16:06 better will be the openwrt makefile :-) 2011-08-06 16:06 take you time anyway. 2011-08-06 16:06 bbl 2011-08-06 16:07 yes of course but I don't know how to do that 2011-08-06 16:07 else I can do a jlime-compatible package and recipe 2011-08-06 17:19 rjeffries: are you referring to the "buy" section ? or the one on testing/making atben/atusb ? 2011-08-06 17:21 wpwrak the BUY section is fine. But that comes after the testing.making which could use an extra sentence or two. IMO 2011-08-06 17:22 wpwrak how much have you studied the ingenic 4670 data sheet etc? and do we know if it is in full production, designed into shipping products? 2011-08-06 17:23 (4760) superficially, hunt and peck style 2011-08-06 17:23 (4760) wolfgang would have to get that information from ingenic 2011-08-06 17:24 (wpan) hmm. maybe add "IEEE 802.15.4 wireless" to "Werner finished the design of the ben-wpan boards" 2011-08-06 17:25 rjeffries: btw, what did the examination of the data sheet of that wlan chip yield ? 2011-08-06 17:34 wpwrak you have different interests than I do. I was interested in the low-power draw. I apologize for having mentioned it here. My mistake. 2011-08-06 17:36 wpwrak wolfspraul has lost interest in Ingenic SOCs. My objective observation. 2011-08-06 17:36 wpwrak I did read your document and learned a lot. Thank you. 2011-08-06 17:38 Ingenic SOCs are a pretty good price/features/performance "bargain" 2011-08-06 17:39 a next product that leverages everything learned by the Ben Nanonote experince could be interesting. I wonder what the required investmenbt would be, assuming one abandons need for consumer electronics stype case. 2011-08-06 17:44 (low-power) you're referring to the wlan chip or to the 4760 ? 2011-08-06 17:45 what would be the point of not having a good case ? 2011-08-06 17:45 i don't think wolfgang has lost interest in ingenic. it's just that he's saturated with M1 for now. 2011-08-06 18:48 yeah 2011-08-06 18:48 i mean ingenic interest, we still in transition :) 2011-08-06 19:31 wpwrak my low-power comment was about the wi-fi chip. as to consumer electronics case for a nanonote follow-on, should ther eevery be one, it adds a lot of expense. the current nanonote case is too restrictive IMO. 2011-08-06 19:36 nice a openwrt xburst minimal image is kinda small, just 8Mb :) 2011-08-06 19:43 wpwrak ahile I understand you opinion re future nanonote case, we could get a nbew system done a lot faster if designing a case was a second effort. 2011-08-06 19:57 he, osgps run not so smoth on the nanonote.. :) 2011-08-06 20:25 kristianpaul:(osgps) you already had attached hardware to NN? 2011-08-06 20:27 i don't think wolfgang has lost interest in ingenic. it's just that he's saturated with M1 for now. 2011-08-06 20:27 oops 2011-08-06 20:28 rjeffries: yes, a care is expensive in terms of work and investment. but then, there's also a difference between a nanonote and yet another devel board :) 2011-08-06 20:29 s/care/case  ;) 2011-08-06 20:29 rjeffries: that wouldn't preclude spinning off an interim prototype into a separate product, though. but i don't think the case for doing all this is very strong if all we aim for is yet another devel board 2011-08-06 20:31 wpwrak too bad you dislike tablet form factor. a samll (7 inches would be my prefernce) copyleft tablet would be well accepted methinks. Case design isso much easier. oh wait, I forgot, BT is not allowed. so no Bluetooth keybards can be considered. 2011-08-06 20:31 rjeffries: (wlan chip) ah, so you wanted me to review the technical specs for you, without actually intending this to be of any relevance for what we do. got me :) 2011-08-06 20:31 wpwrak do not fear I will not bother you again with that or other cvhips 2011-08-06 20:32 said with a smile, never fear 2011-08-06 20:33 (bt) find a sufficiently open BT chip and we can talk :) i don't share wolfgang's more fundamentalist positions regarding certain technologies, but simply questions of what chips we can use without running into massive technical troubles very often lead to very similar conclusions 2011-08-06 20:33 wpwrak after 18 months of shipping the acceptance og Ben Nanonote is very low. Too soon to say how MM will do, that is a whole differnt kettle of fish. 2011-08-06 20:34 you're preaching to the choir ;-) 2011-08-06 20:35 one problem of the ben is also simply that it's "old". if exactly the same device was a new product today, it would probably draw as much attention as back then 2011-08-06 20:35 if a person desires a small mobile device with high useability and functionality (e.g. can connect to the internet when you ar at a hotspot) then indeed a non-copyleft Android or similar product works well 2011-08-06 20:35 that's also why i'm pushing for a ya. provide new meat ;-) 2011-08-06 20:36 but I am drifting into the weeds, showing my lack of dedication to copyleft philosophy. 2011-08-06 20:36 yes, i think android and iphone cover the communication-heavy sector well 2011-08-06 20:36 ok serious business here: 2011-08-06 20:37 what amount of engineering effort (ignore FOR THIS DISCUSSION) all teh associated and vital back end stuff 2011-08-06 20:37 what's "back end stuff" ? 2011-08-06 20:38 what would it take to do a fresh design using 4760 as SOC and going to a lot more memory, atc. if you wre the designers, how many man months of design? 2011-08-06 20:38 procurement, manufacturing, testing all the non-design part. 2011-08-06 20:39 in other words, new design all the way to board layout reday to go buy some PCBs 2011-08-06 20:39 s/raday/ready 2011-08-06 20:40 that means also a number of prototype runs, etc. or is that what you refer to as "back end" ? 2011-08-06 20:41 i mean only design a new board, readyt to buy first 5 protos 2011-08-06 20:42 I know not your fav engineer, but Carlos & friends did a quick hack to Nanonote to create the SAKC. I am sorry that stalled 2011-08-06 20:42 alsthough the fpga aspecty was not my passion. I'd rather accomodate an AVR to get a lot of io capability. I know, you don't care for that idea either.,;) 2011-08-06 20:44 you mean a paper exercise ? well, that would depend on the feature set. maybe a month if it's basically just the cpu. considerably more if you want a lot of peripherals or the peripherals are difficult to source. of course, since you're excluding any sort of design verification, one can just make arbitrary assumptions about the peripherals. it won't work anyway ;-) 2011-08-06 20:46 i.e., what i'm saying is that this is not how you obtain anything usable. there is always feedback in the process. open loop never works. and very often, you need to test subsystems in isolation. not a full functional test, but you need to get actual devices and test them. 2011-08-06 20:47 tuxbrain_HxxHhzo: nah, just was wondering first if the software can run decenlty 2011-08-06 20:47 the problem of what carlos did was that the design wasn't suitable for industrial production. maybe their new ones are. maybe they're hand-soldering them. i like the simplicity of their latest SIE. 2011-08-06 20:48 major issue with SIE i have, was the switc from usb power and external source 2011-08-06 20:49 and i must confess i was waiting more IO, i think lot of IO from the fpga was wasted on that ADC, but off course is a personal opinion 2011-08-06 20:49 rjeffries: SIE has long dropped the FPGA. now it's just the 472x, RAM, uSD, and NAND. technically, they could get rid of the NAND as well. 2011-08-06 20:49 i think SUE current SIe has noe fpga btw.. 2011-08-06 20:50 oops ignore SUE part :) 2011-08-06 20:50 wpwrak I though he had moved on to ARM based boards 2011-08-06 20:51 thats another projects 2011-08-06 20:51 biab 2011-08-06 20:51 yup, the ARM is technically much more demanding. BGA and all.