2011-08-05 05:19 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: hmm, the toped screen shot needs more contrast. i can only see at night that it's not just black ;-)
2011-08-05 05:20 <wolfspraul> how can a screenshot need more contrast? but yes, you are right
2011-08-05 05:20 <wolfspraul> lemme see :-)
2011-08-05 05:21 <wpwrak> btw, do you want to mention the navigation board, for which volunteers are wanted ? http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-June/008344.html
2011-08-05 05:22 <wpwrak> for the free CAD tools comparison, i'd suggest to add "scripted". they're not your usual CAD tool ;-)
2011-08-05 05:24 <wpwrak> also, the captions are somewhat misleading. maybe "OpenCSG" could be "OpenCSG, showing artefacts" (i don't know if it's supposed to show them of if this is a problem with my setup)
2011-08-05 05:25 <wpwrak> the inside/reversed images also show artefacts that are caused by errors in the model / weaknesses in the modeling erm model, not really bugs in the CAD system
2011-08-05 05:26 <wolfspraul> well sure, thanks. I know the captions are bad, it's hard for me to hit the right ones
2011-08-05 05:26 <wolfspraul> I need precise instructions though :-)
2011-08-05 05:26 <wolfspraul> wait, opencsg...
2011-08-05 05:27 <wpwrak> maybe for "inside", "Modeling artefact (internal structure)"
2011-08-05 05:27 <wpwrak> and for "reversed", "Modeling artefact (reversed face)"
2011-08-05 05:29 <wolfspraul> done
2011-08-05 05:29 <wolfspraul> Scripted?
2011-08-05 05:30 <wpwrak> no GUI. you write a script. (e.g., in the OpenSCAD language or, in the case of Cadmium, in Python)
2011-08-05 05:31 <wpwrak> something like this: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/cad/test2/button.py
2011-08-05 05:31 <wolfspraul> what do you want me to edit? I don't get it :-)
2011-08-05 05:31 <wolfspraul> for the toped screenshot, the software draws the lines 1-pixel wide
2011-08-05 05:31 <wolfspraul> not sure how I can easily fix that in gimp, trying...
2011-08-05 05:32 <wpwrak> (scripted) maybe simply s/free CAD tools/free scripted CAD tools/
2011-08-05 05:32 <wpwrak> maybe contrast-enhance the scaled image ?
2011-08-05 05:32 <wolfspraul> nah
2011-08-05 05:33 <wolfspraul> doesn't work
2011-08-05 05:33 <wolfspraul> the problem is toped itself
2011-08-05 05:33 <wolfspraul> their own visuals are not good
2011-08-05 05:33 <wolfspraul> if I increase contrast and brightness the cat becomes clearer, but then all menus disappear :-)
2011-08-05 05:33 <wolfspraul> the problem is the 1-pixel wide line
2011-08-05 05:34 <wolfspraul> ah, maybe I just increase it for that region...
2011-08-05 05:34 <wpwrak> (off-topic) nice article on "heroic scientific development": http://web.archive.org/web/20080512050604/http://apperceptual.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/the-heroic-theory-of-scientific-development/
2011-08-05 05:34 <wpwrak> (region) yeah ;-)
2011-08-05 05:35 <wpwrak> contrast is often a bit of a problem. i also need to add some knobs to fped - it displays quite a number of things in very dark colors that look great at night but are almost invisible at daytime
2011-08-05 05:36 <wpwrak> (or maybe just my screens are crap :)
2011-08-05 05:52 <wolfspraul> [free scripted] done
2011-08-05 05:52 <wolfspraul> [cat contrast] done
2011-08-05 05:52 <wolfspraul> anything else?
2011-08-05 05:52 <wolfspraul> need to rearrange, then push it out. speed speed speed :-)
2011-08-05 05:53 <wpwrak> (rearrange) the thumbnails ;-)
2011-08-05 05:54 <wpwrak> (cat contrast) excellent !
2011-08-05 06:06 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, once the news are done, you ought to post about the fake components. supply chain security is an interesting issue, and open hardware would encounter it at several points
2011-08-05 06:29 <wolfspraul> yes I agree, interesting story
2011-08-05 06:30 <wolfspraul> btw, I am not 100% sure they are fake. it's very difficult to distill really hard facts.
2011-08-05 06:30 <wolfspraul> but still feel comfortable saying 'fake', if I mix in my experience and the evidence we have
2011-08-05 06:31 <wpwrak> well, a trace of uncertainty remains with everything :)
2011-08-05 06:32 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: with you the well known SD lover, have you read Bunnie's article about microSD cards? http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=918
2011-08-05 06:34 <wolfspraul> "Armed with this evidence, we confronted Kingston  both the distributor in China as well as the US sales rep. First, we wanted to know if these were real cards, and second, if they were real cards, why were the serialization codes irregular? After some time, the Kingston guys came back to us and swore these cards were authentic, not fakes, but at least they reversed their position on not offering an exchange on the cards  they took back the p
2011-08-05 06:34 <wolfspraul> just read the entire article if you haven't in the past... I feel our TI schmitt-trigger story is very similar.
2011-08-05 06:34 <wpwrak> yeah, i've read it a while ago. nasty.
2011-08-05 06:35 <wolfspraul> also interesting how Kingston (!) first swears they are authentic (not fake), then takes them back which they would not have done before (of course those cards will be discarded)
2011-08-05 06:35 <wolfspraul> there's a lot of dishonesty on all sides
2011-08-05 06:35 <wolfspraul> sales people doing business on the sides
2011-08-05 06:35 <wolfspraul> 'extra shifts'
2011-08-05 06:36 <wolfspraul> re-marking
2011-08-05 06:36 <wolfspraul> and so on, it's endless
2011-08-05 06:36 <wolfspraul> so actually I correct that. the cards will probably not be discarded but end up yet somewhere else on the 'spot market' :-)
2011-08-05 06:37 <wpwrak> what's bad there is that they seem to have come straight from the official chinese distributor. so even if you follow the supply chain quite meticulously, you get screwed
2011-08-05 06:37 <wolfspraul> because the dishonesty goes all the way up
2011-08-05 06:37 <wolfspraul> I have no illusions
2011-08-05 06:37 <wolfspraul> all the way to the semiconductor fabs and foundries
2011-08-05 06:37 <wpwrak> well, but kingston have a strong motivation to prevent junk being sold under their brand
2011-08-05 06:38 <wolfspraul> I don't know. that's the thing, there is so much dishonesty everywhere that at some point you don't know anymore who is fooling whom :-)
2011-08-05 06:38 <wolfspraul> I can say for sure that the sourcing shop we bought from is 'honest' (VC40 in the wiki)
2011-08-05 06:39 <wolfspraul> that's just a feeling though, and it's a very deep supply chain
2011-08-05 06:39 <wolfspraul> there could be TI people involved in this as well, who knows
2011-08-05 06:39 <wolfspraul> rogue cops everywhere :-)
2011-08-05 06:40 <wolfspraul> but from the pattern, my guess is it's a cheap chinese backyard job, done with full knowledge of whom? don't kno
2011-08-05 06:40 <wolfspraul> know
2011-08-05 06:40 <wolfspraul> but yes, we should write up the facts in a sentence or two and make a little story out of it. I agree it is important for others to consider.
2011-08-05 06:41 <wpwrak> for TI, the case would be even stronger. they're considered an original source, even more so than kingston (who don't produce chips themselves)
2011-08-05 06:41 <wolfspraul> similar to the Bunnie article which I greatly enjoyed. Also his insistance on finding the truth :-)
2011-08-05 06:41 <wpwrak> (bunny) yeah, quite some investigation :)
2011-08-05 06:42 <wpwrak> err, s/bunny/bunnie/
2011-08-05 06:42 <wolfspraul> I'm not sure about ti 'original', I don't know
2011-08-05 06:42 <wolfspraul> maybe they license? subcontract?
2011-08-05 06:42 <wolfspraul> who knows, really
2011-08-05 06:43 <wolfspraul> the entire industry is not known for transparency
2011-08-05 06:43 <wolfspraul> one time I bought xilinx parts 75% below list price in China
2011-08-05 06:43 <wpwrak> yes, this is unfortunately so
2011-08-05 06:43 <wolfspraul> ok?
2011-08-05 06:43 <wpwrak> heh ;-)
2011-08-05 06:43 <wolfspraul> I was in Silicon Valley and wanted to talk to Xilinx about it
2011-08-05 06:43 <wolfspraul> because I want to come clean, I want to understand whether they are really 'real', and if not where I should buy 'clean' parts
2011-08-05 06:44 <wolfspraul> they are absolutely not interested in discussing this :-)
2011-08-05 06:44 <wpwrak> yeah, differential pricing confuses customer expectations
2011-08-05 06:44 <wolfspraul> they may very well be behind some activity that the native observer may consider 'illegal' or 'fake'
2011-08-05 06:44 <wolfspraul> s/native/naive/
2011-08-05 06:44 <wpwrak> oh, can be just different prices for different customers
2011-08-05 06:45 <wolfspraul> they do _not_ want to talk about real vs. fake
2011-08-05 06:45 <wolfspraul> and I am sure they have very good reasons for that
2011-08-05 06:45 <wolfspraul> so I've learnt my lesson on this. what is fake? who knows.
2011-08-05 06:46 <wolfspraul> I know those parts failed, and caused me rework trouble in my run. I don't like that.
2011-08-05 06:46 <wpwrak> luckily, they were relatively easy to replace. imagine the same with a BGA
2011-08-05 06:46 <wpwrak> or COB :)
2011-08-05 06:46 <wolfspraul> I see suspicious things on markings, which even though it may look helpless, those little things may give more clue about what's going on in reality than investigating into the supply chain.
2011-08-05 06:47 <wolfspraul> a lot of people are very aware of the slightest variation in silkscreens, little labels, little special dots and lines and rounded edges and what not
2011-08-05 06:47 <wolfspraul> like identifying fake currency :-)
2011-08-05 06:47 <wpwrak> in the future, part numbers will be replaced with high-resolution pictures ;-)
2011-08-05 06:48 <wolfspraul> oh absolutely
2011-08-05 06:48 <wolfspraul> I totally agree with Bunnie's approach
2011-08-05 06:48 <wolfspraul> 1) microscope
2011-08-05 06:48 <wolfspraul> 2) use the Linux kernel to look at every last byte of ID that can be read
2011-08-05 06:48 <wolfspraul> 3) look at dies, just delayer to see them
2011-08-05 06:48 <wolfspraul> it may sound silly, but that's how it works :-)
2011-08-05 06:49 <wolfspraul> not talk to your supply chain, you will just get more lies
2011-08-05 06:52 <wolfspraul> once we are sourcing nothing but silicon wafers, I think we are safe
2011-08-05 06:52 <wolfspraul> (just kidding)
2011-08-05 06:53 <wpwrak> yeah. they've cheated you already once, so why trust them another time ?
2011-08-05 06:53 <wolfspraul> we need to make some products before that...
2011-08-05 06:53 <wolfspraul> also nobody really knows
2011-08-05 06:53 <wolfspraul> and is surrounded by more strange things
2011-08-05 06:53 <wolfspraul> and all those lots are flowing, it's hardware
2011-08-05 06:53 <wolfspraul> it leaves little traces
2011-08-05 06:54 <wolfspraul> some sales guy may do something once, to test whether he can make extra money
2011-08-05 06:54 <wolfspraul> then it stops
2011-08-05 06:54 <wolfspraul> he waits to see whether there is any backlash
2011-08-05 06:54 <wolfspraul> and so on
2011-08-05 06:54 <wpwrak> (wafers) yeah. the day you get to open your own fab will be a liberating moment. 
2011-08-05 06:55 <wpwrak> i wonder if public shaming works. post all the details, including supply chain contacts. then switch suppliers.
2011-08-05 06:55 <wpwrak> if enough people do this, there may be a perception that those tricks don't pay off in the end
2011-08-05 06:56 <wpwrak> not for everyone, of course, but for people who are in a better position to enforce compliance than you as the customer
2011-08-05 06:57 <wolfspraul> nah, won't work
2011-08-05 06:57 <wolfspraul> illegal acts are done in secrecy
2011-08-05 06:57 <wolfspraul> obviously
2011-08-05 06:57 <wolfspraul> you are always surrounded by people who claim they like transparency
2011-08-05 06:57 <wolfspraul> some of them are lying
2011-08-05 06:57 <wolfspraul> we have nothnig but friends when we go public, this is totally fine
2011-08-05 06:57 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-05 06:58 <wolfspraul> the bad guys won't care, they depend on their actions remaining anonymous/untraceable before and after publicity
2011-08-05 06:58 <wolfspraul> hunting them down is hard, see how the Kingston story ended
2011-08-05 06:58 <wolfspraul> nobody is really interested in cleaning it all up
2011-08-05 06:58 <wpwrak> well, you can expose at least the last step in the chain. make it their problem.
2011-08-05 06:59 <wpwrak> they can in turn work upstream. they may be big enough to be heard.
2011-08-05 06:59 <wolfspraul> again, the TI part problem is _not_ related to our supplier (VC40, a 2-person sourcing company in Shenzhen)
2011-08-05 06:59 <wolfspraul> yes sure, of course
2011-08-05 06:59 <wolfspraul> Eva (the owner) would love to find out about it
2011-08-05 06:59 <wolfspraul> but her tracking is weak
2011-08-05 06:59 <wolfspraul> it may have been a one-off thing (see above)
2011-08-05 06:59 <wolfspraul> any investigation will just waste time
2011-08-05 07:00 <wolfspraul> if Eva's tracking is good, maybe she can trace back where she bought that reel
2011-08-05 07:00 <wolfspraul> and then?
2011-08-05 07:00 <wpwrak> well, if you trust your supplier 100%, you can also include that, plus all the information they are willing to give you in the public shaming
2011-08-05 07:00 <wolfspraul> once you hit the bad guy they will respond with a lie, that simple :-)
2011-08-05 07:00 <wolfspraul> what do you do to cover up a lie? invent another lie! :-)
2011-08-05 07:01 <wolfspraul> it won't work, trust me
2011-08-05 07:01 <wolfspraul> what was the result of Bunnie's work?
2011-08-05 07:01 <wolfspraul> his blog post
2011-08-05 07:01 <wolfspraul> enlightenment for the world
2011-08-05 07:01 <wolfspraul> anything else?
2011-08-05 07:01 <wpwrak> probably too obscure for a major impact
2011-08-05 07:01 <wolfspraul> I have already made my conclusions practially for rc4
2011-08-05 07:02 <wolfspraul> we will source everything that is easily sourcable (or even cheaper) on digikey, instead of the Chinese spot market
2011-08-05 07:02 <wolfspraul> and then we see
2011-08-05 07:02 <wpwrak> of course, it means that the Ya should ship with cards from sandisk, not kingston :)
2011-08-05 07:02 <wolfspraul> and in parallel sure we could contact Eva and see whether she can trace back the reel, for fun
2011-08-05 07:02 <wolfspraul> you bet
2011-08-05 07:02 <wolfspraul> except for 'fake' Sandisk cards on the market?
2011-08-05 07:02 <wolfspraul> ah no, wait. nobody fakes those.
2011-08-05 07:03 <wpwrak> buy from sandisk directly ? or from a distributor they recommend ?
2011-08-05 07:03 <wolfspraul> you will always be a believer, I can tell :-)
2011-08-05 07:03 <wolfspraul> the bad guys are in the system
2011-08-05 07:03 <wpwrak> if you allow the supply chain to be broken, you're lost
2011-08-05 07:03 <wolfspraul> it's not broken, it's full of humans
2011-08-05 07:03 <wolfspraul> it's hardware, not software
2011-08-05 07:03 <wolfspraul> no md5sum
2011-08-05 07:04 <wolfspraul> a sales guy urgently needs extra money, mom is sick. he decides to make an exception, only once, when shipping stuff to one customer
2011-08-05 07:04 <wolfspraul> doesn't happen?
2011-08-05 07:04 <wolfspraul> bah
2011-08-05 07:04 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-05 07:04 <wolfspraul> then he likes the money he made, does it again
2011-08-05 07:04 <wpwrak> i think these are the exception :)
2011-08-05 07:04 <wolfspraul> sometimes it goes big, sometimes stays small
2011-08-05 07:04 <wolfspraul> oh no
2011-08-05 07:05 <wpwrak> most of them are a little more systematic
2011-08-05 07:05 <wolfspraul> not my experience
2011-08-05 07:05 <wolfspraul> best is strict IQC, everywhere
2011-08-05 07:05 <wolfspraul> and yes, only work with people you trust, lots of personal visits
2011-08-05 07:05 <wolfspraul> it helps
2011-08-05 07:05 <wolfspraul> anything suspicious - stop working with them
2011-08-05 07:05 <wpwrak> yes, IQC is great. border controls
2011-08-05 07:05 <wolfspraul> your sales guy suddenly drives a Ferrari? stop working with them
2011-08-05 07:05 <wolfspraul> that kind of thing
2011-08-05 07:05 <wpwrak> heh ;-)
2011-08-05 07:06 <wolfspraul> it's hardware, really
2011-08-05 07:06 <wolfspraul> I wish there were a magic way out, but there is not
2011-08-05 07:06 <wpwrak> applying social control, why not
2011-08-05 07:06 <wolfspraul> I can say that for sure after all these years and endless meetings from the smallest sourcing shops on the streets in SHenzhen to the uber-sales guys at Samsung HQ in Seoul
2011-08-05 07:06 <wolfspraul> it's a mess, really. hardware is dirty. real world.
2011-08-05 07:07 <wolfspraul> no md5sum, really
2011-08-05 07:07 <wolfspraul> every shipment is new
2011-08-05 07:07 <wolfspraul> everybody has some secrets to cover up, at least sometimes, temporarily :-)
2011-08-05 07:07 <wolfspraul> you constantly have to work against that, it won't stop
2011-08-05 07:08 <wpwrak> i think a manufacturing company can protect itself against shipping fake goods
2011-08-05 07:09 <wpwrak> so the question is what pressure it takes to make them implement enough internal checks
2011-08-05 07:09 <wolfspraul> btw, I can also say that overall the problem is small. a few percent. it pops up, you fight it.
2011-08-05 07:10 <wpwrak> remember all the issues with fake x86 CPUs ? those seem to have largely disappeared. not sure how exactly they solved it. perhaps just tightened the supply chain.
2011-08-05 07:10 <wolfspraul> anybody from small to large manufacturers has the chance to survive, it's not a deadly threat if you are aware of it and take some precautions.
2011-08-05 07:10 <wpwrak> a few percent is certain doom on a complex device
2011-08-05 07:10 <wolfspraul> and I would say 95% or more of people around you will honestly try to weed this out, all the time
2011-08-05 07:11 <wolfspraul> of course, otherwise there would be no functioning consumer electronics :-)
2011-08-05 07:11 <wpwrak> hopefully a lot more than 95% ;-)
2011-08-05 07:11 <wolfspraul> a few percent of sourcing jobs
2011-08-05 07:11 <wolfspraul> no I don't think so
2011-08-05 07:11 <wolfspraul> there are bad guys, they try to cover something up
2011-08-05 07:11 <wolfspraul> it starts small
2011-08-05 07:11 <wolfspraul> the chip has some bug, but the sales guys are told to cover it up
2011-08-05 07:11 <wolfspraul> "take it back silently if the customer runs into the bug"
2011-08-05 07:12 <wpwrak> i wonder who the typical victims are. may be small operations like sharism.
2011-08-05 07:12 <wolfspraul> everybody, it's just in the whole system. I am sure Foxconn is affected too, talk to Tony :-)
2011-08-05 07:12 <wpwrak> the big ones certainly have their IQC in place, so there's little point in probing them. will just piss them off.
2011-08-05 07:12 <wolfspraul> well but the fake parts may work
2011-08-05 07:12 <wolfspraul> or the bug they are trying to cover up may not manifest itself for that particular customer they are selling the chip to
2011-08-05 07:13 <wolfspraul> there's a lot of grey
2011-08-05 07:13 <wolfspraul> if Foxconn gets fake parts and they work, do you think they care?
2011-08-05 07:13 <wolfspraul> should they?
2011-08-05 07:13 <wpwrak> ah, so they're almost real. i see. i thought they were just completely broken
2011-08-05 07:13 <wolfspraul> do they proactively investigate this?
2011-08-05 07:13 <wolfspraul> how many resources for taht?
2011-08-05 07:13 <wpwrak> (broken/wrong chip)
2011-08-05 07:13 <wolfspraul> I don't know
2011-08-05 07:13 <wolfspraul> I will not investigate it forever, throwing more good cash after bad cash.
2011-08-05 07:13 <wolfspraul> no point
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> this reel was bad
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> I change rc4 sourcing
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> done
2011-08-05 07:14 <wpwrak> send the reel to bunnie ;-)
2011-08-05 07:14 <roh> hrrr
2011-08-05 07:14 <roh> bbl.. will send out the 2nd shipment now
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> nice
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> I am sure Tony could tell you lots of stories from Foxconn
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> there is a lot of money to be made in this
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> and if you think nobody tries, oh well
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-05 07:14 <wolfspraul> people do crazy things for a few USD
2011-08-05 07:15 <wpwrak> (foxconn caring) yeah, if it passes IQC, then it's beyond their radar too. at least they're keeping the barrier high. that in turn helps everyone.
2011-08-05 07:15 <wolfspraul> IQC is very important
2011-08-05 07:16 <wolfspraul> catch it early, fight back hard
2011-08-05 07:16 <wolfspraul> sounds like a Chinese 'enforce the law' campaign :-)
2011-08-05 07:16 <wolfspraul> strike the offenders
2011-08-05 07:16 <wpwrak> didn't they "solve" their drug problem that way ? :)
2011-08-05 07:20 <wolfspraul> one time I bought a microSD card, just one for myself
2011-08-05 07:21 <wpwrak> now wolfgang admits his dirty secrets :)
2011-08-05 07:21 <wolfspraul> when I was at the vendor, the price was too low, ridiculously low. like 30 US cents, instead of 4-5 USD.
2011-08-05 07:21 <wolfspraul> no wait
2011-08-05 07:21 <wolfspraul> my Chinese is not very good, so I try to communicate with that guy
2011-08-05 07:21 <wolfspraul> I say "it's too cheap", "do you have a real one"
2011-08-05 07:21 <wolfspraul> bla bla, I don't understand him
2011-08-05 07:21 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-08-05 07:21 <wolfspraul> I say, OK, whatever, 30 cents, gotta go
2011-08-05 07:22 <wolfspraul> of course it didn't work
2011-08-05 07:22 <wolfspraul> then I realized - he is selling broken cards
2011-08-05 07:22 <wpwrak> pity
2011-08-05 07:22 <wolfspraul> why not?
2011-08-05 07:22 <wolfspraul> he knows, he will be open about it
2011-08-05 07:22 <wolfspraul> it's a business for broken microsd cards
2011-08-05 07:22 <wpwrak> hehe
2011-08-05 07:22 <wolfspraul> the price is 80-90% under what it should be, just scrap value
2011-08-05 07:22 <wolfspraul> who is he selling to?
2011-08-05 07:23 <wolfspraul> (except for exotic cases like myself)
2011-08-05 07:23 <wpwrak> criminals
2011-08-05 07:23 <wolfspraul> probably :-)
2011-08-05 07:23 <wolfspraul> maybe artists who are planning an installation with microsd collage?
2011-08-05 07:23 <wolfspraul> and they need 10,000 cards, just for their artwork?
2011-08-05 07:23 <wpwrak> big market, that one :)
2011-08-05 07:23 <wolfspraul> could be, right?
2011-08-05 07:23 <wolfspraul> well
2011-08-05 07:23 <wolfspraul> is this an illegitimate business? (the guy selling)
2011-08-05 07:23 <wolfspraul> he did not betray me, that's for sure
2011-08-05 07:24 <wolfspraul> if I would have understood him better, he would have said "may not work"
2011-08-05 07:24 <wolfspraul> of course most likely 90% of the cards he is selling will end up in some 'shady' use case
2011-08-05 07:24 <wolfspraul> but we don't know
2011-08-05 07:24 <wpwrak> i'd call it legitimate. the problem is what happens next
2011-08-05 07:24 <wolfspraul> it still could be an artist who needs cards for an installation...
2011-08-05 07:25 <wolfspraul> yes correct, I think so too. legitimate. but barely :-)
2011-08-05 07:25 <wolfspraul> and then somewhere is the guy who cannot resist, and will take the money
2011-08-05 07:25 <wolfspraul> and the price goes from 20 cents to 3.50 USD :-)
2011-08-05 07:25 <wpwrak> of course, that vendor may make an easier target to hit, so making his biz illegal may help to fight this sort of fraud
2011-08-05 07:26 <wpwrak> then he has to operate underground, increasing his risk and maybe driving his prices up, which in turn reduces the margin
2011-08-05 07:27 <wpwrak> so as long as uSD cards themselves stay legal, that approach may work :)
2011-08-05 07:27 <wpwrak> ah, and what would work even better is getting rid of patents ! ;-)
2011-08-05 07:28 <wolfspraul> you have some crazy ideas there ;-)
2011-08-05 07:28 <wpwrak> then almost all the money can go into the production, greatly reducing the margin for fraudulent products
2011-08-05 07:28 <wolfspraul> I'm just telling you some examples of grey, a lot of grey. and then someone somewhere will make the last step and take the money.
2011-08-05 07:28 <wolfspraul> but the probelm is contained, really
2011-08-05 07:28 <wolfspraul> the industry is healthy, 95% of people are honestly trying to weed this out
2011-08-05 07:29 <wolfspraul> but if you are doing sourcing on a regular basis, yes, you will run into this kind of thing
2011-08-05 07:30 <wolfspraul> strong IQC, lots of microscope pictures, always work towards trustworthy sources, react swift and hard if you are fed crap
2011-08-05 07:30 <wolfspraul> ask Tony for more advice :-)
2011-08-05 07:30 <roh> wolfspraul: the package is at the shop now. will go out 16:30ish (usually the pickup time)
2011-08-05 07:31 <wolfspraul> perfect
2011-08-05 07:31 <wolfspraul> I think the first package is on the way to Taiwan already, crossing my fingers
2011-08-05 07:31 <wolfspraul> roh is a source I trust
2011-08-05 07:31 <wolfspraul> how about that?
2011-08-05 07:31 <wolfspraul> but maybe there's a bad customs agent in between somewhere? nah... :-)
2011-08-05 07:32 <wpwrak> i think when you get the first fake M1, that's a day to celebrate ;-)
2011-08-05 07:32 <wolfspraul> seriously, shipping people are swapping goods too!
2011-08-05 07:32 <wolfspraul> when you have a tray full of bad microsd cards (above example), it's not that hard to convert it to cash
2011-08-05 07:33 <wolfspraul> and some trays of this and that can be quite expensive, as we all know
2011-08-05 07:33 <wolfspraul> open the box, slip it in, close the box
2011-08-05 07:33 <akiwiguy> 8:10*
2011-08-05 07:33 <wolfspraul> sell the now good tray on the spot market
2011-08-05 07:33 <wolfspraul> doesn't happen?
2011-08-05 07:33 <wolfspraul> ha ha
2011-08-05 07:33 <roh> wolfspraul: the tracking shows the first has left germany.. atleast i think it has
2011-08-05 07:34 <wolfspraul> by the time anybody has foudn out about that bad tray the connection and evidence leading to the shipping company is long gone
2011-08-05 07:34 <wolfspraul> so there's a lot of quite sophisticated sealing going on too
2011-08-05 07:35 <wolfspraul> I really should sit down with Tony for some stories... :-)
2011-08-05 07:35 <wolfspraul> we always missed, tried to meet a few times but he is running around too fast
2011-08-05 07:36 <wolfspraul> akiwiguy: the bad stuff only happens with microSD, not with 8:10
2011-08-05 07:36 <roh> wolfspraul: first package is 19.5 kg, second is 6.9kg
2011-08-05 07:36 <wpwrak> you're making a good case for smuggling ;-) that way, you could ship completely sealed packages, and just discard any that have been opened.
2011-08-05 07:36 <roh> second one has a few spare shielding sheets, a dozend buttons and some 'cap missing' buttons
2011-08-05 07:36 <akiwiguy> wolfspraul: xD
2011-08-05 07:36 <wolfspraul> a lot of nasty things are happening, seriously there is a lot of easy money in this industry
2011-08-05 07:37 <wolfspraul> those little thingies are just too valuable, too easily exchanged etc.
2011-08-05 07:37 <wolfspraul> roh: I will send some material back to raumfahrtagentur, a few boxes, also brochures, stickers, etc.
2011-08-05 07:37 <roh> :)
2011-08-05 07:37 <wolfspraul> just promotional material, use it as you wish
2011-08-05 07:37 <roh> yeah.
2011-08-05 07:38 <roh> how much are these cameras? if they are good i could use some of them here at the agency (mount them to machines to remote keep watch)
2011-08-05 07:38 <wolfspraul> 25 USD
2011-08-05 07:39 <wolfspraul> my most expensive accessory :-)
2011-08-05 07:39 <roh> i see.. well.. then they HAVE to be good ;)
2011-08-05 07:39 <wpwrak> a big problem is that customs are allowed to open things. otherwise, you could easily create the right incentives.
2011-08-05 07:40 <wolfspraul> no no. this wouldn't work. maybe they are 'allowed' but for any serious import/export company they will work directly with customs for things like sealed boxes.
2011-08-05 07:40 <wolfspraul> otherwise customs would destroy everything
2011-08-05 07:40 <wolfspraul> maybe this happens in North Kore, but not China the 2nd largest economy in the world
2011-08-05 07:40 <wpwrak> you could still do a few other things, like putting individual random laser markings on the devices. then scan the tray. that would be expensive to duplicate.
2011-08-05 07:41 <wolfspraul> let's say shipments of bare dies, shipments of all sorts of things that are sealed, even simple vacuum wrapping
2011-08-05 07:41 <wolfspraul> if customs has an issue, they will contact the agent, xray, etc.
2011-08-05 07:41 <wolfspraul> is not like crazy "rip open everything"
2011-08-05 07:41 <wolfspraul> yes correct! [laser markings]
2011-08-05 07:42 <wolfspraul> those little things work best
2011-08-05 07:42 <wolfspraul> very effective
2011-08-05 07:42 <wpwrak> yeah, but they can open the box. so you can't just ensure integrity of the shipment.
2011-08-05 07:42 <wolfspraul> because in the end you are hunting down rare cases, individuals (mostly) who try their luck
2011-08-05 07:43 <wolfspraul> so you need low-tech approaches, laser markings, frequent little changes to logo or how/where date codes are written
2011-08-05 07:43 <wolfspraul> those are very effective, and what most people use to keep the quality of the supply chain up
2011-08-05 07:44 <wolfspraul> roh: what do you mean with 'good'? I don't understand
2011-08-05 07:44 <wolfspraul> you mean the mechanical housing?
2011-08-05 07:44 <wolfspraul> lens? CCD sensor?
2011-08-05 07:44 <wpwrak> yeah, drive the cost of making an authentic-looking device up and drive the whole device cost down. at some point, the fraudster's biz just collapses
2011-08-05 07:45 <wolfspraul> it's an analog camera
2011-08-05 07:45 <wolfspraul> the one we are including has a waterproof metal housing, bullet type
2011-08-05 07:46 <wolfspraul> 1/3 '' Sony CCD sensor
2011-08-05 07:46 <wolfspraul> 20 tpi (standard) tripod threading
2011-08-05 07:46 <wolfspraul> quite a nice little thingie
2011-08-05 07:49 <wolfspraul> one problem I found is that if you turn it a lot, say in your hand, the cable that comes out from the end may slip out, exposing the inner wires (still shielded)
2011-08-05 07:49 <wolfspraul> but even in that state it's still very nice and fully functional (not waterproof anymore though)
2011-08-05 07:49 <wolfspraul> I will wait for feedback
2011-08-05 07:49 <wolfspraul> also the software on m1 can improve a lot with regards to the camera, I think before making more improvements on the cam we would want to make more improvements to the software using the cam data.
2011-08-05 08:22 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I like Bunnie's terminology. I will call the TI parts 'irregular', not 'fake'. And I may even down-play the TI association because from looking at the data, I think it's unlikely and unfair. So I will say 'irregular schmitt-triggers'.
2011-08-05 08:40 <qwebirc49919> hello ?
2011-08-05 08:40 <qwebirc49919> anybody here?
2011-08-05 08:42 <qwebirc49919> ¡º(
2011-08-05 08:46 <wolfspraul> qwebirc49919: hi
2011-08-05 08:55 <xiangfu> qwebirc49919, Hello
2011-08-05 09:00 <qwebirc49919> I have no name?
2011-08-05 09:01 <kodein> it's "qwebirc49919"
2011-08-05 09:02 <wolfspraul> it's an automatically assigned name, you can try to type: /nick new_name
2011-08-05 09:02 <wolfspraul> start with the / in a new line
2011-08-05 09:07 <xiangfu> qwebirc49919, from your IP address, you are in Beijing. cool.
2011-08-05 09:37 <roh> heh. YAY
2011-08-05 09:37 <roh> i just realizied i now have shipped over 100 case kits :)
2011-08-05 10:03 <kyak> kristianpaul: i did really have a chance to test at* stuff for the last month, so the current status for is "ssh somehow works with dirtpan" :)
2011-08-05 10:03 <kyak> *didn't
2011-08-05 10:05 <kyak> i have some ideas about pluggin atusb thing into my 'wdtv live hub' media player, which recently got rooted and so i'm able to build kernel modules for it. The problem is that wdtv is running very old kernel (2.6.22) and atusb driver can't be yet compiled as module
2011-08-05 10:05 <kyak> but that would be cool.. I won't have to keep my laptop running to provide wireless to Ben
2011-08-05 10:11 <xiangfu> kyak, hi, I tried last dailybuild image. by report bug the 'at' package compile fine now. 
2011-08-05 10:12 <xiangfu> but 'stardict' 'mediatomb' 'python' not working. compile fine. but when I start them just some 'seg fault'
2011-08-05 10:12 <xiangfu> kyak, do you know if the early daily build works fine?
2011-08-05 10:14 <xiangfu> I am download the early version now: 07052011.
2011-08-05 10:25 <kyak> xiangfu: the latest build i flashed was probably from one month ago
2011-08-05 10:27 <kyak> xiangfu: the stardict is not working here, too :(
2011-08-05 10:28 <kyak> probably it's been broken at some point, but i'm using qstardict
2011-08-05 10:28 <kyak> which does work and doesn't hit OOM killer with the same dictionary as stardict
2011-08-05 10:31 <wolfspraul> we need only one stardict
2011-08-05 10:31 <wolfspraul> if qstardict works better, why not just remove the other one?
2011-08-05 12:11 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (to association) naw, full disclosure, please :)
2011-08-05 12:12 <wpwrak> s/to/ti/
2011-08-05 12:16 <wpwrak> if using "irregular", you may want to clarify what you think has happened. e.g., that a reel of bad parts has been sourced somewhere along the way, but that you don't believe they're original TI parts that are just messed up
2011-08-05 12:25 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: well, it's difficult. I am thinking from the headline backwards. I think we are doing a better service by first saying 'irregular schmitt-trigger parts', because if we say 'fake TI parts' that's sensationalist and will mislead the casual reader, imho
2011-08-05 12:25 <wolfspraul> of course we ran into the 'irregular schmitt-trigger parts' trying to source TI schmitt-triggers
2011-08-05 12:25 <wolfspraul> I don't want to hide that at all
2011-08-05 12:26 <wolfspraul> but it's the second step of the explanation, imho
2011-08-05 12:26 <wolfspraul> small detail, maybe I'm over-cautious
2011-08-05 12:26 <wolfspraul> this is like police work, you don't want to spread accusations all around you, in the end you may just burn good people
2011-08-05 12:27 <wolfspraul> I very much like the approach Bunnie took in his post, you can tell he's relaxed and all and has the right focus. that's why I feel better with 'irregular schmitt-trigger', as the first line.
2011-08-05 12:27 <wpwrak> but "fake TI parts" will draw more attention :-)
2011-08-05 12:27 <wolfspraul> definitely
2011-08-05 12:27 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-08-05 12:28 <wpwrak> if this gets big headline news, it's much more likely that someone will make the effort of hunting down that fraudster
2011-08-05 12:29 <wolfspraul> I won't make any big effort on that news item, it's a small detail in the end
2011-08-05 12:29 <wpwrak> well, unless it gets too much attention, in which case they'd need to "show quick results", and hang the next best scapegoat they can find
2011-08-05 12:30 <wolfspraul> that's a very small and crappy backyard shop that mixed some bad parts in, it's really not worth that much attention
2011-08-05 12:30 <wpwrak> of course, even that could serve to "encourager les autres" :)
2011-08-05 12:30 <wolfspraul> but I will write it up nicely (actually Adam already did most of it) because it's a nice little experience that should be remembered
2011-08-05 12:31 <wpwrak> well, it is. you lost some money and were at risk of losing a lot more. consider this happening with a 1000 pieces order and distributors already out of stock
2011-08-05 12:31 <wolfspraul> but it's totally normal in sourcing
2011-08-05 12:32 <wolfspraul> just under-documented a little maybe
2011-08-05 12:32 <wpwrak> if that shop hadn't proven to be untrustworthy now, they may have bitten you much worse in the future
2011-08-05 12:32 <wolfspraul> because most people that run into this on a daily basis, and fix it on a daily basis, won't blog
2011-08-05 12:32 <wpwrak> perhaps that's why it keeps on happening :)
2011-08-05 12:32 <wolfspraul> possible, although experience sourcing people share the knowledge with each other
2011-08-05 12:33 <wolfspraul> only we are new :-)
2011-08-05 12:33 <wpwrak> it's like kidnapping. as long as you just pay and go on, that biz model remains attractive
2011-08-05 12:33 <wolfspraul> nah don't worry. it's not increasing, spreading, anything.
2011-08-05 12:33 <wolfspraul> but I agree we should document it well, which we do
2011-08-05 12:34 <wolfspraul> btw, a lot of Adam's new pictures come from a 100 USD USB microscope he bought before the rc3 run
2011-08-05 12:34 <wolfspraul> a good investment :-)
2011-08-05 12:34 <wpwrak> hehe ;-)
2011-08-05 12:34 <wolfspraul> don't know the magnification, but it's nice
2011-08-05 12:34 <wolfspraul> and quick too I would think
2011-08-05 12:34 <wpwrak> plays nice with linux ?
2011-08-05 12:34 <wolfspraul> aw: you there?
2011-08-05 12:34 <wolfspraul> is that right that you bought a USB microscope before the rc3 run?
2011-08-05 12:35 <wolfspraul> which model is it? how do you copy pictures to your Linux notebook?
2011-08-05 12:36 <wpwrak> i once looked around for USB microscopes but got mixed results. it seems that the ones that give you good focus also tend to need proprietary drivers. but that was some years ago. maybe things have changed since.
2011-08-05 12:37 <aw> wolfspraul, yes, i bought it before rc3
2011-08-05 12:37 <aw> i shared my windows's folder so that my ubuntu laptop can access it. ;-)
2011-08-05 12:38 <wpwrak> aw: you had a moment of cleirvoyance ;-)
2011-08-05 12:38 <wpwrak> (windows) awww :-((
2011-08-05 12:39 <aw> wpwrak, hehe
2011-08-05 12:40 <aw> wolfspraul, http://www.dino-lite.eu/index.php/en/digital-microscopes/dino-lite/45-dino-lite/256-am2011
2011-08-05 12:42 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yeah! we are open about everything, even our sins
2011-08-05 12:42 <wolfspraul> how about that?
2011-08-05 12:42 <wolfspraul> maybe not all of our sins?
2011-08-05 12:42 <wolfspraul> let's add the copyleft hardware microscope to the todo list...
2011-08-05 12:46 <wpwrak> aw: here's a nice accessory: http://www.microscope.com/dinolite-stand-ms21w-flexible-versatile-stand-p-522.html
2011-08-05 12:47 <wpwrak> aw: or, fancier: http://www.microscope.com/dinolite-stand-ms52b-articulating-boom-with-clamp-p-662.html
2011-08-05 12:49 <wolfspraul> aw: have you made any new discoveries about boards with flash or impedance problems?
2011-08-05 12:49 <aw> wpwrak, yes, i was thought that to buy with stand and clamp...well...the results of rc3 was out of my plan though. ;-) exactly if having yes stand/clamp is good.
2011-08-05 12:50 <aw> wpwrak, are you using one of them?
2011-08-05 12:50 <aw> wolfspraul, not yet though..i am fixing that VIN: I2C fail. ;-)
2011-08-05 12:51 <aw> i was thought this one should be easiler to fix then still hehe...;-)
2011-08-05 12:52 <aw> VIDEOIN_SDA came from fpga is bad. ;-) http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:M1_rc3_0x4d_ng_VIDEOIN_SDA.JPG
2011-08-05 12:52 <aw> the good one must be like this: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:M1_rc3_0x4e_good_VIDEOIN_SDA.JPG
2011-08-05 12:53 <wolfspraul> how can you fix it?
2011-08-05 12:53 <aw> there's no any parts between fpga and U21's 53 pin(ie. TP15 = VIDEOIN_SDA .
2011-08-05 12:55 <wolfspraul> so how can it be fixed then? that pin under the fpga is badly soldered?
2011-08-05 12:55 <aw> i took out video decoder then the same bad SDA siganl. So i just threw out my final step (using hot air to blow fpga body), not yet tested. ;-)
2011-08-05 12:56 <roh> can it be a bad pullup?
2011-08-05 12:56 <roh> badly soldered resistor
2011-08-05 12:56 <aw> wpwrak, i do believe that sda is needed slave to be activated(for ack) from sender 
2011-08-05 12:57 <aw> roh, yes, i thought there's no pull up successfully.
2011-08-05 12:58 <aw> roh, no any resistors placed between U21's 53 pin(VIDEOIN_SDA) and fpga(ball AB17 )
2011-08-05 12:59 <roh> hm.
2011-08-05 12:59 <wpwrak> aw: (scope) no, i just use my digital camera. it's has a pretty good macro. but lighting is a big issue if i try to get close.
2011-08-05 13:00 <aw> so there's internal pullup in fpga though, also i just thought all functionalities from fpga all work well, why this SDA signal is bad? I checked VIDEOIN_SCL, HS, VS, FIELD are all okay.
2011-08-05 13:00 <wolfspraul> aw: can we replace the entire fpga?
2011-08-05 13:00 <aw> wpwrak, i see.
2011-08-05 13:00 <wolfspraul> I mean of course we can, but what would be the cost, and would it result in a sellable board?
2011-08-05 13:01 <roh> i see.. internal pullup. what happens if you add an external pullup?
2011-08-05 13:02 <aw> i can't but factory can do this. No cost needed, i can request minbo they do this without charge show that I have no idea why SDA came from fpga no good. 
2011-08-05 13:02 <wolfspraul> nice
2011-08-05 13:02 <aw> roh, i've not used external pullup
2011-08-05 13:02 <wolfspraul> if this results in another sellable board, without excessive work on our side, let's do it
2011-08-05 13:02 <wolfspraul> but if the board is too ruined from too many reworks to be considered sellable, then let's just forget it
2011-08-05 13:02 <wolfspraul> your call
2011-08-05 13:02 <roh> aw: can you try and see what happens if you do? maybe the internal pullup is broken and the pin is ok otherwise
2011-08-05 13:03 <wolfspraul> roh: but in that case we could not sell the board still
2011-08-05 13:03 <wolfspraul> I would not want to sell it
2011-08-05 13:03 <aw> roh, but should not be like that, the SCL's level stays very well @ 3.3V .;-)
2011-08-05 13:03 <wolfspraul> so trying this rework only brings the board one step closer to unsellable state
2011-08-05 13:03 <wolfspraul> we are not doing design work...
2011-08-05 13:03 <roh> heh. ok.
2011-08-05 13:03 <wolfspraul> instead, replacing the entire fpga _may_ get us to a sellable board
2011-08-05 13:03 <wolfspraul> well that's just my thinking
2011-08-05 13:03 <wolfspraul> adam is in charge of the production
2011-08-05 13:04 <wolfspraul> if he wants to experiment with external pullups, fine :-)
2011-08-05 13:04 <wolfspraul> I don't see the value from a production perspective, though
2011-08-05 13:04 <wolfspraul> I'm learning...
2011-08-05 13:04 <aw> ha~ i won't actually  spend time to add it.
2011-08-05 13:04 <roh> true. was just thinking that its less work to add a resistor instead of swapping a bga chip
2011-08-05 13:05 <aw> since if I still get no work I'll gather boards later then send back to factory.
2011-08-05 13:06 <roh> will sleep now, then find an atm and pack for camping
2011-08-05 13:36 <wpwrak> indeed, an external pull-up seems to be a fairly easy thing to try. the voltages are a little strange, so one more data point could be intresting. if only to satisfy curiosity :)
2011-08-05 13:38 <wpwrak> (strange voltages) one theory would be that the pin is shorted to another pin driven low. but the pull-up vs. Ron ratio is off by about one order of magnitude for this.
2011-08-05 13:57 <aw> wpwrak, i checked ball AB17's surroundings balls under fpga. there's two possible conditions could make this route as a lower magnitude. one is the nearest adjacent ball  to AB17 is exactly ground (AA17). the other is the pcb's ground may close to this.
2011-08-05 13:57 <aw> wpwrak, i'll reserve this to take xray when I need later. ;-)
2011-08-05 13:58 <aw> wpwrak, surely roh's idea is good for experiment of course. ;-)
2011-08-05 14:00 <aw> well...i stop on checking this board. next to check the most bigger problems: impedance.
2011-08-05 14:00 <wpwrak> hmm, pcb ground seems unlikely. the internal pull-up is something like 10kOhm or maybe a bit more, if i remember correctly
2011-08-05 14:02 <wpwrak> into PCB GND, you'd have something like a 10k:1 voltage divider. that would then be 0.33 mV instead of 200 mV :)
2011-08-05 14:02 <aw> wpwrak, yeah..me too think it's unlikely though. since liked i found that all other functionalities are okay, so I would prefer to think it's a pcb somewhere problem
2011-08-05 14:02 <wpwrak> into another pin that's driven low you'd have ~10k:100. still only 33 mV instead of 200 mV, but closer :)
2011-08-05 14:02 <aw> wpwrak, exactly though.
2011-08-05 14:03 <wolfspraul> bad fpga?
2011-08-05 14:03 <wolfspraul> what's more likely? bad fpga or bad pcb?
2011-08-05 14:03 <wolfspraul> (assuming it's not a soldering problem)
2011-08-05 14:03 <wpwrak> there's only one way to find out :)
2011-08-05 14:03 <wpwrak> ah, #1 suspect would be soldering/contamination
2011-08-05 14:04 <aw> i quite think it's not said a fpga ball problem until i take xray.
2011-08-05 14:04 <wpwrak> you can test the internal pull-up with an external pull-up. if the internal pull-up is broken, but all the rest is okay, the external pull-up should fix the problem.
2011-08-05 14:05 <wpwrak> if you remove the fpga, you destroy all other evidence with it, so that may fix the board but it won't help to gain any new insights
2011-08-05 14:05 <wolfspraul> there's not always a valuable insight to be found
2011-08-05 14:05 <wpwrak> that's of course true
2011-08-05 14:06 <wpwrak> but the external pull-up should be a 5 minutes low-risk experiment. compare this to swapping the entire fpga :)
2011-08-05 14:07 <aw> hi...i temporarily reserve this board late to fix. It's good surely that all rest are okay and seems adding external pullup then pass, isn't a good idea from roh? ;-) not bad.
2011-08-05 14:08 <aw> phew~i take rest firstly, tomorrow tell you the good news though. ;-)
2011-08-05 14:09 <wpwrak> i like the idea. as long as we don't know what to look for, tests that allow for incremental examination are good. any chances are that anything you hit once with 90 boards is something that will eventually come back when you make 1000s of them ;-)
2011-08-05 14:09 <wpwrak> btw, what's the impedance thing ?
2011-08-05 14:10 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: not always, with 90 you are already slowly in 'mass production' territory. you can do the math and be surprised how easy it is to spend too much money on a board.
2011-08-05 14:10 <wolfspraul> of course, I agree, with 90 you may still take every one kind of serious
2011-08-05 14:10 <wolfspraul> but with 250 you definitely don't do that anymore
2011-08-05 14:11 <wolfspraul> it's more important to move to the next 250 :-)
2011-08-05 14:11 <aw> well...time to take rest. I'll keep irc posted tomorrow. :) night.
2011-08-05 14:47 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: hmm, the news are still hard to read. how about just putting one slide of each presentation, shrunk to no more than one Ben (320 x 200 pixels), and then link to the full collage ?
2011-08-05 14:48 <wolfspraul> wait still moving around
2011-08-05 14:50 <wpwrak> many of the pictures in the nanonote section have a good size. it think the set with tuxbrain making the wpan boards is nearly perfect
2011-08-05 14:51 <wolfspraul> yes some stuff is too big, no worries
2011-08-05 14:51 <wolfspraul> let me finish it first
2011-08-05 14:51 <wpwrak> so .. maximum height, 166 pixels :) no more than one line of images. then it looks good.
2011-08-05 14:51 <wolfspraul> well it depends
2011-08-05 14:51 <wpwrak> the tumbnails don't really need to be readable
2011-08-05 14:52 <wolfspraul> Adam's testing setup is crowded, hard to see the m1 board if it's too small
2011-08-05 14:52 <wpwrak> they just need to show you what you'll find there
2011-08-05 14:52 <wolfspraul> and you don't want too many different image sizes either, that looks unstable and unnerving
2011-08-05 14:52 <wolfspraul> but let me just go through first, I am slow
2011-08-05 14:53 <wpwrak> i think a relatively constant small image size would be ideal. "click here to see a bearded guy making wpan boards", "click here for adam's crowded lab"  :)
2011-08-05 14:53 <wolfspraul> the box is also difficult to make smaller
2011-08-05 14:54 <wpwrak> why ? make it small. people can still recognize the outline and see that there are more details. again, it's just one click away :)
2011-08-05 14:54 <wpwrak> so you write the news directly in the wiki or do you have some source that you process into wiki syntax ?
2011-08-05 14:55 <wpwrak> in the latter case, you could generate an alternative version with all images "expanded". in case someone wants this.
2011-08-05 14:55 <wpwrak> check after ~3 issues to see if people still click on the "expanded" thing :)
2011-08-05 14:57 <wolfspraul> I'll go through tomorrow, mostly I agree
2011-08-05 14:58 <wolfspraul> but some things cannot be too small
2011-08-05 14:58 <wolfspraul> for example the videos are probably either watched inline or not at all
2011-08-05 14:58 <wolfspraul> so I need to pick a size that is pleasant to watch
2011-08-05 14:58 <wolfspraul> I'll see what the youtube default is :-)
2011-08-05 14:58 <wpwrak> oh, and i'm not sure having two levels of hierarchy really works that well. i was actually about to suggest trying that, but now that i see it, i've changed my mind :)
2011-08-05 14:59 <wpwrak> youtube has really small thumbnails ;-)))
2011-08-05 15:00 <wpwrak> also, the inline viewer doesn't really work for me. if i watch a video, i have to click my way through to the file, wget it, then view it with mplayer
2011-08-05 15:02 <wpwrak> so at least for me, a teaser image plus a direct link to the file (without intermediate html page) would be ideal. not sure what works in other people's setups, though. i would expect many browsers to start a more or less usable viewer
2011-08-05 15:05 <wpwrak> those intermediate html pages are a bit of a disease. most of the time, they don't really add value, but only make it harder to get at the real content. i can understand their legal purpose for recording authorship, mandatory credits, and such, but they're still a pain.
2011-08-05 15:13 <wpwrak> i think what looks "right" is a certain ratio of text block height to picture height. if the text blocks get too thin (and you usually have only one line), they get lost among the images. i think a clear visual separation between image and text is also important.
2011-08-05 15:15 <wpwrak> e.g., the tuxbrain images are clearly separated form the text, because they have a "frame". as a counter-example, my apartment drawing is not clearly separated from text, also because it has text of its own paralleling the text in the news. thus it gets harder to mentally segment the page into the text that provides the context and structure, and the images that go one level deeper.
2011-08-05 21:53 <qi-bot> The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08042011-1755/
2011-08-05 22:12 <kristianpaul> how come... accum interupt is asserted low if i read a register first..
2011-08-05 22:13 <kristianpaul> no make sense because documentation said, it is overwritten !!
2011-08-05 22:13 <kristianpaul> if you dont reed it before int..
2011-08-05 22:15 <larsc> maybe the documentation is wrong
2011-08-05 22:17 <larsc> i was working on a sound chip yesterday where the documentation had left and right swapped in a few places, was quite annoying
2011-08-05 22:22 <kristianpaul> i think documentation is right and HDL implementation is outdated, i cant be  that the interrupt that tell cpu sample the accumalator dependent of a soft read procedure..
2011-08-05 22:34 <GitHub93> [milkymist] kristianpaul pushed 1 new commit to gps-sdr-testing: https://github.com/kristianpaul/milkymist/commit/14055f8514fb416553c69679b9bd36565e9685ff
2011-08-05 22:34 <GitHub93> [milkymist/gps-sdr-testing] missing status_read initialization, also added some debug signals - Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas
2011-08-05 23:06 <ignatius_> Is it possible to assign/use the 1.7GiB as the rootfs... is it a kernel setting, or something? Several years ago, I installed Debian on my Nanonote, and it worked perfect fline. It was able to use the entire NAND (~1.7GiB) as the rootfs, so I know it's possible.
2011-08-05 23:07 <ignatius_> Sorry to be a pest.
2011-08-05 23:16 <kristianpaul> no no, no pest no way :)
2011-08-05 23:16 <ignatius_> Cool.
2011-08-05 23:17 <ignatius_> :)
2011-08-05 23:17 <kristianpaul> you can implement ubifs but i never tried it with debian
2011-08-05 23:17 <kristianpaul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ubifs
2011-08-05 23:18 <kristianpaul> roh: you awake?
2011-08-05 23:27 <mth> ignatius_: NAND partitioning can be specified in arch/mips/jz4740/board-qi_lb60.c in the kernel sources
2011-08-05 23:28 <mth> but reading the code there, I think it already uses as much as possible for the rootfs
2011-08-05 23:31 <ignatius_> Ah... Hmm.. I wonder why when I installed the Debian (Lenny) instructions the first time, I was able to boot the system, and its capacity was the entire "free" MTD (??) partition.
2011-08-05 23:32 <ignatius_> I messed up and deleted that kernel source... :(
2011-08-05 23:33 <mth> I'm looking at the 2.6.39 sources, not sure what version released kernels are built from
2011-08-05 23:33 <ignatius_> Since then, i've tried many, many different kernel sources.... no luck. Then I found one that did work, and it will boot the kernel from the first time, but not others that people have offered. And setting up the sources properly again, I am not able to product a kernel that boots without the "VFS" error.
2011-08-05 23:37 <ignatius_> The only thing about that kernel tree I remember, is that it was version "2.6.32.10" and it was part of a tool chain, and had the directory of "openwrt-xburst-xburst"
2011-08-05 23:37 <ignatius_> GIT/CVS... not sure..
2011-08-05 23:38 <mth> yes, you can build the kernel using the openwrt build system
2011-08-05 23:38 <mth> I build kernels for the Dingoo though, not for the NanoNote, but they're similar in hardware
2011-08-05 23:39 <ignatius_> Yeah. I know. I'm just saying that I don't remember WHICH toolchain I used.
2011-08-05 23:39 <ignatius_> Nod. I just got a Dingoo the last week.
2011-08-05 23:39 <mth> ah, I told you this before?
2011-08-05 23:39 <mth> I remember I told someone, but not the nick
2011-08-05 23:40 <ignatius_> Nah. You didn't tell me that you got a Dingoo.
2011-08-05 23:42 <mth> you probably used this last time: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/
2011-08-05 23:44 <mth> by the way, you can find more Dingoo users on #dingoonity
2011-08-05 23:45 <ignatius_> Thanks.
2011-08-05 23:48 <mth> I'm going to get some sleep now
2011-08-05 23:49 <ignatius_> 'Night.