2011-08-04 02:31 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: milkymist config.minimal: change ROOTFS PARTSIZE to 4M (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a3e9bea 2011-08-04 04:13 wpwrak: hey, back :-) 2011-08-04 04:14 I continued to write up your news items, it's shaping up very nicely 2011-08-04 04:14 Good afternoon, everyone 2011-08-04 04:14 I have the FISL talk, packageology, anatomy of a datasheet, ben-wpan production and testing documentation (WOW IS THIS GOOD! I didn't read it in detail before!) 2011-08-04 04:15 free cad tool comparison 2011-08-04 04:15 akiwiguy: hi kiwi guy :-) 2011-08-04 04:15 xD 2011-08-04 04:15 hai thar, wolfspraul 2011-08-04 04:17 wpwrak: I'll let you know when it's fully cleaned up. THen I will dig the mailing list archives to see whether there's more. 2011-08-04 04:17 finally I need to rearrange this whole giant mess of a page I have right now (08-01 news) 2011-08-04 05:40 wonder if anyone in qi-hardware community will be attending this event: http://dangerousprototypes.com/2011/08/03/open-hardware-summit-2011-were-doing-a-breakout/ 2011-08-04 05:44 wolfspraul what approach did Sharism take regarding getting official USB ID? 2011-08-04 05:44 thsi got me thinking (in a non-Qi-hardware context for a small consulting project) 2011-08-04 05:44 http://dangerousprototypes.com/2011/06/24/ohs-2011-talk-proposal-open-hardware-and-the-2000-usb-tax/ 2011-08-04 05:45 what is your question? 2011-08-04 05:45 we paid 2000 USD, got a USB ID, and use that USB ID for all Qi projects 2011-08-04 05:47 anybody who is doing a Qi projects is welcome to ask for a product ID, which we keep track of at http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/USB_product_ID_assignments 2011-08-04 05:47 the Qi USB vendor code is 0x20B7 2011-08-04 05:49 we similarly got an IEEE OUI, 10-E2-D5, for use by any Qi project and tracked at http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/IEEE_OUI_assignments 2011-08-04 05:49 that one was 1650 USD I believe 2011-08-04 05:50 cool. I pretty much assumed as much. 2011-08-04 05:51 as you can imagine I disagree with the entire analysis and conclusion of that article you link to 2011-08-04 05:51 we do share 0x20B7 with any Qi project 2011-08-04 05:51 welcome to the 21st century 2011-08-04 05:52 sometimes some leadership is required 2011-08-04 05:52 I am sure the USB forum is an honorable organization. 2011-08-04 05:52 most Chinese vendors wouldn't even bother to spell their name right, and randomly pick any number between 0x0000 and 0xFFFF 2011-08-04 05:52 and they serve the world with their products... 2011-08-04 05:53 it's a wonderful opportunity for the USB forum to come clean. I am openly saying: Qi paid 2000 USD for 0x20B7, and it's shared for any Qi project, and properly accounted for on our Wiki :-) 2011-08-04 05:53 and one important feature of our wiki is that anonymous edits are possible 2011-08-04 05:53 isn't that a wonderful world? 2011-08-04 05:53 Qi has solved the '2000 USD tax' those guys seem to have found. 2011-08-04 05:54 there are many more such taxes btw. I decided to pay 2000 USD of my own money to the USB forum because I think it's an honorable organization. 2011-08-04 05:54 I would not pay 4000 USD / yr to get a "SD host license" 2011-08-04 05:54 hahaha 2011-08-04 05:54 that why Qi created the 8:10 standard 2011-08-04 05:54 you guys talking again 2011-08-04 05:54 geez 2011-08-04 05:55 work to be done! 2011-08-04 05:55 rejon: well, he's right. Many people see those taxes and ask how it related to 'open hardware' 2011-08-04 05:55 Qi has solved the problem for USB (0x20B7), and for IEEE OUI (10-E2-D5) 2011-08-04 05:55 whether people accept or like our solution is up to them 2011-08-04 05:56 SD host license is a scam, we created 8:10 2011-08-04 05:56 MP3, no need to talk about it 2011-08-04 05:56 HDMI, same 2011-08-04 05:56 what else? 2011-08-04 05:57 rejon: the article says (let's assume this is authentic) "Anyone who wants to manufacture an UNO clone has to cough up $2000 bucks to get their own ID, Arduino cant share theirs. Thats the $2000 USB tax." 2011-08-04 05:58 I disagree. "Arduino can't share theirs" 2011-08-04 05:58 They dont' want to share theirs 2011-08-04 05:58 they don't want to take risks, because they don't care 2011-08-04 05:58 (about that case) 2011-08-04 05:58 thousands of Chinese companies that are very real can share theirs :-) 2011-08-04 05:59 rjeffries: you can write a letter to the USB forum and point to the Qi wiki page saying that Qi shared the vendor code it acquired with all subprojects 2011-08-04 05:59 see what they say :-) 2011-08-04 05:59 problem solved, for me 2011-08-04 06:01 hahaha 2011-08-04 06:03 rejon: the article Ron linked to mentioned some 'dutch guys' (no url) who seemingly had their vendor id 'revoked' after trying to share it 2011-08-04 06:05 rejon and wolfspraul I read the articel, found it interesting. Absolutely no aspersions intended. 2011-08-04 06:05 and it says that the usb forum is "getting more strict" 2011-08-04 06:05 rjeffries: no it's good :-) 2011-08-04 06:05 so... 2011-08-04 06:05 I have ZERO interest in writing the USB Forum. why would you say something like that 2011-08-04 06:05 why not? help the Qi community 2011-08-04 06:05 I am trying to find little tasks for you :-) 2011-08-04 06:06 I am interested more for a company I am working with that is all. 2011-08-04 06:06 if the USB forum 'revokes' the Qi vendor ID, as per their policies it seems they will not reissue 0x20B7 2011-08-04 06:06 wolfspraul I am quite busty, but thanks again. ;) 2011-08-04 06:06 no worries my expectations weren't disappointed 2011-08-04 06:06 $2000 is not a huge sum in a comercial enterprise 2011-08-04 06:07 but still they whine 2011-08-04 06:07 it looks out many small and honest people 2011-08-04 06:07 maybe that combination can also just be called 'stupid' though 2011-08-04 06:08 the not so honest would just ignore this entire topic and produce and sell wahtever they want, with whatever random number that crosses their mind first 2011-08-04 06:08 or the number of some other company so the driver works 2011-08-04 06:08 so let me just summarize for the archives 2011-08-04 06:08 if the USB forum revokes the Qi ID and how we use them, I will publish any and all communication I receive from them 2011-08-04 06:09 after that we will replace the USB standard with our own, similar to the 8:10 standard for removable memory cards 2011-08-04 06:09 and done 2011-08-04 06:09 no end user will be affected by any of this, I'm pretty sure our post-USB devices will work quite well still. We will do a lot of testing. 2011-08-04 06:11 hope this makes sense :-) rjeffries thanks for bringing it up! 2011-08-04 06:11 understood, although not a topic that is intersting to me. I asked a simple question, and now I know. and thank you 2011-08-04 06:11 and a special thank you to rejon. I can always count on him for a bit of amusement 2011-08-04 06:15 rjeffries: oh btw, you have to pay more if you want to use some of their logos 2011-08-04 06:15 USB logos that is 2011-08-04 06:15 i'm not really following 2011-08-04 06:15 this conversation or reading backlogs 2011-08-04 06:15 no time 2011-08-04 06:16 back to work 2011-08-04 06:17 understood. 2011-08-04 08:19 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: usbboot: remove useless NAND_READ_TO_RAM from host. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/ad27b63 2011-08-04 08:24 I cannot find anymore where Tuxbrain announced the sales-to-date for atben/atusb 2011-08-04 08:31 ah here, found it http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-July/008435.html 2011-08-04 11:00 <`antonio`> Hi ! does anyone have some instructions on how to use atben and at usb ? 2011-08-04 11:09 `antonio`: not really. you are a pioneer if you go there... 2011-08-04 11:10 there was some development activity from Stefan Schmidt and Richard Sharpe, who may be in this channel once in a while 2011-08-04 11:10 and of course Werner, the designer 2011-08-04 11:10 but it's definitely in development stage now 2011-08-04 11:10 <`antonio`> ok 2011-08-04 11:11 <`antonio`> I am looking at some Werner discussions 2011-08-04 11:11 <`antonio`> is there gonna be a wiki page about it ? 2011-08-04 11:12 there's a wiki page http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN 2011-08-04 11:12 and Werner wrote some things in plain HTML 2011-08-04 11:13 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/ 2011-08-04 11:14 also http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/prod/ 2011-08-04 11:14 <`antonio`> yeh I've already read these 2011-08-04 11:16 <`antonio`> i'll have a look and see if I can get some hints from the video on the wiki 2011-08-04 11:18 what hints are you looking for? 2011-08-04 11:18 feel free to ask i guess :) 2011-08-04 11:21 had you alredy look at mail list archives? 2011-08-04 11:22 i think werner wrote some interesting reports there 2011-08-04 11:22 <`antonio`> yes few of those are really helpful 2011-08-04 11:23 <`antonio`> ok, thanks ! 2011-08-04 13:17 catching up with a bit of backlog ... 2011-08-04 13:19 kristianpaul: (wtf accum int.png) that could be some RF interference. e.g., if the pin is driven low and then Z. maybe it's not the FPGA pin but its configuration. or maybe the "pull up" transistor is dead :) 2011-08-04 13:23 Ayla: you called ? 2011-08-04 13:25 wolfspraul: (testing doc) glad you like them ;-) 2011-08-04 13:28 wpwrak: I did 2011-08-04 13:30 I heard you are mister Lilo? 2011-08-04 13:32 at some point we'd like to be able to install linux on the dingoo A320 2011-08-04 13:32 on the NAND 2011-08-04 13:32 so far, I was able to install the filesystem on the NAND with a UBIFS filesystem 2011-08-04 13:32 it works good as long as I boot the linux kernel through USB with jzboot 2011-08-04 13:34 do you have any advices on the way to proceed? 2011-08-04 13:36 maybe we can get uboot to start off UBI 2011-08-04 13:37 hmm, i don't know if uboot supports ubifs 2011-08-04 13:37 I was also thinking about making a much simpler JZ bootloader 2011-08-04 13:38 what i would do: write a very very very simple NAND loader that does nothing but a sequential load starting at page 0 (or 1), with the only exception being that it can skip bad blocks (you need that with NAND) 2011-08-04 13:38 and the load a linux kernel with an initramfs, which then kexecs your real system 2011-08-04 13:39 there, you can do anything you please. you have the full power of linux at your hands. 2011-08-04 13:39 no need to mess with silly little u-boot :) 2011-08-04 13:39 yep, we were thinking about kexecboot 2011-08-04 13:41 so the first-stage bootloader would have full UBI support? 2011-08-04 13:43 `antonio`: the setup is still a little bumpy. if you want to use the IEEE 802.15.4 kernel drivers, you need to build the ben-wpan branch of qi-kernel. then you can write native IEEE 802.15.4 applications or you can also use a bit of IPv4 via dirtpan 2011-08-04 13:44 `antonio`: if you don't need IEEE 802.15.4, you could also use a lower level, similar to what the user-space tools do 2011-08-04 13:45 <`antonio`> i just want to try something simple with dirtpan 2011-08-04 13:46 <`antonio`> anyway I'll try and I'll let you know how that goes and if I am stuck, thanks ! 2011-08-04 13:47 Ayla: no, it would just do setup_memory(); p = LOAD_ADDRESS; page = 1; /* assume page 0 contains the boot loader */ do 2011-08-04 13:47 if (!(page & (PAGES_PER_BLOCK-1))) while (nand_block_is_bad(page)) page += PAGES_PER_BLOCK; 2011-08-04 13:49 read_nand_page(p, page); p += PAGES_SIZE; page++; } while (not_done()); 2011-08-04 13:49 ((void (*)(void)) LOAD_ADDRESS)(); 2011-08-04 13:50 add a { after the "do" 2011-08-04 13:50 so, you just wrote the bootloader? :) 2011-08-04 13:51 "not_done" would depend on how you express the end. could be hard-coded in the first block (so you'd replace the first block each time you update the boot loader). or you could have some end marker, either in the data (e.g., a page that's all zero) or in the OOB data (tricky) 2011-08-04 13:52 yeah. that's all the boot loader you need ;-) (the functions it calls are a bit more work, though. also note that read_nand_page should do ECC correction :) 2011-08-04 13:55 `antonio`: dirtpan currently doesn't handle traffic-intensive connections well, because the underlying IEEE 802.15.4 stack doesn't to proper CDMA, so eventually both sides fight "forever" for the right to send. i have a driver in the works hat will solve this for atusb, later for atben. need to put a bit more time into this, though. been slacking the last two weeks :) 2011-08-04 13:58 <`antonio`> ok! 2011-08-04 14:04 the bootloader should also initalize pin and clock config 2011-08-04 14:04 and mem 2011-08-04 14:09 larsc, indeed 2011-08-04 14:24 larsc: wait, does uboot actually does that? 2011-08-04 14:25 if we start a linux kernel, it won't be done by the kernel itself? 2011-08-04 14:28 some of it is done by uboot some of it is done by the kernel 2011-08-04 14:32 wpwrak: like them [testing documentation] you bet. not just like it, it's truly fantastic 2011-08-04 14:33 we don't have much time or reason for celebration, but afaik this is the gold standard in how a good copyleft production documentation should look like 2011-08-04 14:33 I didn't notice it before, but finally I think I know why the production and yield of the boards at tuxbrain went so smooth :-) 2011-08-04 14:34 I always wanted to have something like this for the Ben, or now M1, but we never got our act together to get it into such a concise and focused format as you did with ben-wpan 2011-08-04 14:40 wpwrak: so in terms of completion, anything I overlooked? 2011-08-04 14:40 I think next step is to rearrange everything, make it lighter and more readable 2011-08-04 14:41 if the page is even still browsable to you :-) 2011-08-04 14:49 The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-08032011-1051/ 2011-08-04 15:00 akiwiguy: so you got a nanonote finally? :) 2011-08-04 16:13 the page does indeed load a bit slowly ;-) 2011-08-04 17:55 stefan_schmidt: heya ! how are things going with the atusbs ? are they behaving ? 2011-08-04 17:56 wpwrak: behaving pretty good. No real problems on hardware or driver level 2011-08-04 17:56 wpwrak: Fighting with all the stuff on top of it now :) 2011-08-04 17:57 that's what i like to hear ;-) 2011-08-04 17:58 heh 2011-08-04 17:58 <[g2]> waves to stefan_schmidt and wpwrak 2011-08-04 17:58 hi [g2] 2011-08-04 18:00 will be at the CCC camp next week 2011-08-04 18:00 [g2]: and how how's your little project ? by the way, tuxbrain may be interested in it, too. 2011-08-04 18:00 <[g2]> wpwrak, I've been through 3 revs on my "Arduino compatible" hardware now 2011-08-04 18:00 <[g2]> I got the 1st rev of PCBs back 2011-08-04 18:01 <[g2]> I've been making friends with Kicad :) 2011-08-04 18:01 <[g2]> wpwrak, thx for the help btw 2011-08-04 18:02 <[g2]> I haven't put created the RF board yet 2011-08-04 18:03 <[g2]> wpwrak, would tuxbrain like to be a distrib or just make them ? 2011-08-04 18:17 [g2]: (3 revs) wow ;-) 2011-08-04 18:17 [g2]: (tuxbrain) maybe both 2011-08-04 18:18 but you'll have to ask him yourself. all i know is that he's interested in making/selling things that combine arduino with ieee 802.15.4 2011-08-04 18:20 any reason not to just use http://www.logos-electro.com/zigduino/ ? 2011-08-04 18:21 hi roh 2011-08-04 18:22 <[g2]> wpwrak, THX 2011-08-04 18:22 it would be interesting for Zigduino to be an endpoint for wprak's ATben or ATusb. 2011-08-04 18:23 can two ATben communicate together without a ATusb? 2011-08-04 18:23 <[g2]> wpwrak, the arduino part is meant to be a "DIT - Do it Together" kinda project with lots of spins.  I'm thinking about possibly weekly PCBs 2011-08-04 18:23 Ziguino is a bit pricey at $70USD, but not outrageous IMO. There is aguy working on a lower cost 802.15.4 thingie 2011-08-04 18:23 roh: form factor ? 2011-08-04 18:23 oh I thik his handle is [g2] LOL 2011-08-04 18:23 <[g2]> rjeffr, Hi... Outrageous :) 2011-08-04 18:24 [g2] I like your style. you go, man 2011-08-04 18:24 Ayla: sure. atben to atben, atusb to atusb, atusb to atusb, it's all the same :) 2011-08-04 18:25 hello wpwrak I have been out of the loop. what is working so far at a simple level with your two modules 2011-08-04 18:25 [g2]: weekly may be a bit excessive ;-) but yes, a (comparably) high rate makes a lot of sense 2011-08-04 18:25 wpwrak: arduino compatible means a constant formfactor anyhow. else its not compatible. 2011-08-04 18:26 <[g2]> wpwrak, I don't mean just by myself.  As my nick handles shows I was a dev on nslu2-linux..  We had 120+ devs in 2005ish time frame.  There were 6K+ people on the mailing list. I'm sure the communities are much larger now. IMHO 2011-08-04 18:27 rjeffr: ieee 802.15.4 kernel drivers are now there. atusb still has high latency (due to protocol issues on the usb end), and neither implements cdma/acks so far (that's an issue inherited from upstream) 2011-08-04 18:27 wpwrak: ok, that's nice. If we install linux on the NAND of the A320, I wouldn't mind having a wireless card for networking or multiplayer 2011-08-04 18:27 roh wpwrak well, Arduino can be defined that way, as in all sheilds must fit. some people relax that phsical form factor sucessfully 2011-08-04 18:27 roh: well, i'll let the arduinites explain the concept :) 2011-08-04 18:28 rjeffr: yes. but it generates a lot of misunderstandings with not that technical knowing people and thats bad and generates bad vibes. 2011-08-04 18:28 wpwrak I have zero idea what you and others will need to do for your 802.15.4 driver to be incuded in upsteam linux distros. 2011-08-04 18:28 besides that.. its not really big even if done correctly. 2011-08-04 18:28 wpwrak: auto ack and resubmit are still on my agenda for at86rf230. Should come withinj the next to months... 2011-08-04 18:29 the power source is usually much bigger than the arduino board or the rest of the electronics 2011-08-04 18:29 roh I agree. I did order qty 5 of the little Femtoduino yesterday. I have contacted a shop locally who I think will do the SMT for at a very reasonable price 2011-08-04 18:29 roh true, other than a battery fed system 2011-08-04 18:30 in any case, i have a funny little bullshit use case where small is good 2011-08-04 18:30 rjeffr: even batteries are bigger than the boards ;) 2011-08-04 18:30 stefan_schmidt: i'll probably beat you to it :) when i redo the atusb driver to overcome the protocol inefficiency, i'll also switch on cdma and ack. should actually be pretty simple. 2011-08-04 18:30 i am not against small. i am against starting there. 2011-08-04 18:30 rjeffries: (include upstream) push and wait ;-) 2011-08-04 18:30 wpwrak: that would obviously be fine with me :P 2011-08-04 18:30 normal arduino users are BEGINNERS. means also for soldering etc. 2011-08-04 18:31 <[g2]> roh, rjeffries define small if you can 2011-08-04 18:31 roh: (size) make it work with button cells ;-) 2011-08-04 18:31 roh very true. nbodt is forced to purchase the smaller arduio-like pcbs. ;) 2011-08-04 18:31 so do not make it more complicated than it absolutely needed. 2011-08-04 18:31 wpwrak: (driver rewrite) happy with the firmware side now? 2011-08-04 18:31 wpwrak: button cells are ecological nightmares. dont use them. 2011-08-04 18:32 [g2] my bullshit use case is a computer attached to a walking stick that will control a string of LEDs to make the walker (that would be me) safer at dusk 2011-08-04 18:33 maybe it makes more sense to make a atrf extension board 2011-08-04 18:33 roh I think I'll use an AA form factor cell eiether n=1 or maybe n=2 recahrgeable naturally 2011-08-04 18:33 basically the chip and its crystal with the antenna on a pcb, to be connected via spi to stuff like a arduino nano etc. 2011-08-04 18:33 for the people who need a smaller formfactor 2011-08-04 18:33 to be clear my walking stick MCU is not wireless. sorry if I confused anyone 2011-08-04 18:33 and to make it cheaper 2011-08-04 18:34 <[g2]> rjeffries, my current arduino board is only about 2x the size of the Femto or 0.82" x 1.42" 2011-08-04 18:34 roh: heh, you'll love one of my secret little projects then. eats cr2032 like there's no tomorrow ;-) 2011-08-04 18:34 <[g2]> I was going go down to .07" 2011-08-04 18:34 roh that is a good idea. but if [g2] can have an atmel MCU on that little board, the whole thing is smakll and cheap and can have some sensor inputs 2011-08-04 18:35 wpwrak: i know enough electronics which does... quite a waste 2011-08-04 18:35 [g2] when do you get fabbed PCBs back? 2011-08-04 18:35 <[g2]> I've already have a version back 2011-08-04 18:35 rjeffries: it will be less flexible and maybe more expensive due to lower sold volume. 2011-08-04 18:35 <[g2]> s/have/got/ 2011-08-04 18:35 wpwrak what secret little project Sir Werner? Do tell. 2011-08-04 18:35 rjeffries: if there isnt already a breakout board, start there. there are lods of mcu out there and not everbody uses avrs 2011-08-04 18:36 roh it will be dirt cheap however. the Femtoduino PCBs are available for $2 each including shipping in USA 2011-08-04 18:36 <[g2]> rjeffries, http://www.flickr.com/photos/63243033@N07/5978975226/in/photostream 2011-08-04 18:36 <[g2]> It's the Thor 2011-08-04 18:36 roh we agree there are many ways to skin this cat 2011-08-04 18:37 I asssume it is ok to post this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290595113999&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_500wt_983 2011-08-04 18:37 rjeffries: femtoduino isnt really interresting for me. 2011-08-04 18:37 and this: http://www.varesano.net/projects/hardware/Femtoduino 2011-08-04 18:38 and us shipping is only a small part of this planet 2011-08-04 18:38 roh I am not promoting it. it is merely something real cheap that I will play (repeat PLAY) with for my walking stick control system ;) 2011-08-04 18:39 roh I get it. relax. actually teh guy will shiup via surface mail elsewhere VEY cheaply 2011-08-04 18:39 this PCBs themselves are just under $1 and the bag of parts is about $7 2011-08-04 18:40 sure. i am just saying that i do arduino compatiple stuff.. but ive never bought an actual one. 2011-08-04 18:40 i just use the next best avr in my box 2011-08-04 18:40 if i need more than one pcb maybe i route one and mill it at friends or maybe on our mill (when its finally done) 2011-08-04 18:41 rjeffries: will he sell completed boards (machine placed)? 2011-08-04 18:43 roh he does not but I am investigating that. it is so few parts that my small show may not use picj and place, but I do not have a quoute yet. 2011-08-04 18:44 stefan_schmidt: (fw) it'll probably change some more once i start debugging the driver. i like the general architecture of the new features, though. oh, and eventually, i should kick out some of the requests. we don't really need two sets that do the same (reg/buf vs. spi) :) 2011-08-04 18:44 rjeffries: heh.. well.. tell me a price for them if you know 2011-08-04 18:44 there is a hackerspace about 80 miles away and I know those guys. They bought a machine (cupcake, I think) which is a low end 3d fab machine 2011-08-04 18:45 currently it seems cheaper making some including pcb in europe than shipping from the us and hand placing 2011-08-04 18:45 I don't think they have a CNC mill yet. 2011-08-04 18:45 wpwrak: sure, we can keep an older fw around until the new one is stable and then switch over 2011-08-04 18:45 you may be right. hard to say. 2011-08-04 18:45 3d printers and mills dont really help for picknplace. sadly 2011-08-04 18:46 and the board seems to small to be milled properly (atleast if it shouldnt be pain soldering afterwards 2011-08-04 18:46 rjeffries: (project) http://ledtoy.sourceforge.net/ 2011-08-04 18:46 oh I understand that. ;) I was merely saying we have a hackerspace. I have  not joined because it is so far away. I think I can get access now and again for a reasonable fee 2011-08-04 18:47 rjeffries: the illuminated walking stick sounds nice. add color, and you can dual-use it as a light saber ;-) 2011-08-04 18:47 roh agree Femtoduino is not a good candidate for cnc milling in lieu of regualt etching 2011-08-04 18:47 wpwrak I make thes esticks from ranfom pieces of actual sticks. 2011-08-04 18:48 rjeffries: yes.. thats why i think doing a hundred and using picknplace makes sense. manual labour is expensive (atleast here) 2011-08-04 18:48 wpwrak I'll be damned. re LEDtoy project. Too damn cool. 2011-08-04 18:49 stefan_schmidt: the fw should be upwards-compatible anyway (for now) 2011-08-04 18:49 roh the only way doing Femtoduino by hand makes sense (I think) is for a hobbyist who has more time than money 2011-08-04 18:51 roh: (expensive labour) try to get some 1 EUR jobbers ? :) 2011-08-04 18:52 wpwrak: they cost money, not bring something. 2011-08-04 18:52 wpwrak: people who can do higher-level work like smt soldering have a real job. 2011-08-04 18:52 roh: what is it for the employer - EUR 2/hour ? 2011-08-04 18:52 (ledtoy) cool :-) 2011-08-04 18:53 they'll cost you loads of money for broken stuff. besides that you only get them for stuff not done my regular workers.. (e.g. tasks which have no economic backing like cleaning parks et) 2011-08-04 18:54 rjeffries, kristianpaul: glad you like it :) still needs some engineering, though. e.g., firmware/content updates are currently via an RS-232 dongle. and the case it some fragile DIY contraption with a lot of glue and wire. (needless to say, changing the battery is a pain) 2011-08-04 18:55 wpwrak: ive talked with farmers who dont use 1E jobbers but are back to eastern european helpers for the crop harvesting season. why? less broken crop. its difficult to stab  asparagus properly 2011-08-04 18:55 roh: well, (illegal ?) immigrants from impoverished countries may also be a good choice. whatever works ;-) 2011-08-04 18:56 wpwrak: i do like the concept 2011-08-04 18:56 in the end. either pay workers properly (which they can live from) or pay twice ,) thats whats to learn there. low-wages jobs dont save any money. they lead to bad quality and more cost in total 2011-08-04 18:56 wpwrak: not illegal. remember.. the eu goes from the mediterain to russia now. they are all legal 2011-08-04 19:01 http://www.tinkersoup.de/product_info.php?products_id=579 2011-08-04 19:01 hrhr.. a atben-like oled 2011-08-04 19:02 cute ;-) 2011-08-04 19:03 wpwrak you are now famous on GooglePlus G+ I warned them that you do not use G+ 2011-08-04 19:05 rjeffries: hmm ? what made me famous ? 2011-08-04 19:06 <[g2]> would add wpwrak to my circle 2011-08-04 19:07 what the world really needs is a good anti-social networking site ;-) 2011-08-04 19:07 [g2] I am trying to figure out how to get the URL to those two posts I made about LED Toy and the guy who invented it 2011-08-04 19:07 wpwrak: already got it 2011-08-04 19:07 wpwrak you and wolfsraul and rejon could all talk to each other. BUG smile 2011-08-04 19:07 wpwrak: the amount the 'social' shit spamms one its already antisocial. the whole posse 2011-08-04 19:07 s/BUG/BIG/ 2011-08-04 19:08 the "bug smile" would be a lot scarier ;-) 2011-08-04 19:08 wpwrak: (anti-social networking) I thought IRC is exactly that 2011-08-04 19:08 I am not an evangalist for social networking. I can report that i find a lot of smart creative sane people who I otherwise would never meet. 2011-08-04 19:09 irc was the fisrt social network. get over it. ;) 2011-08-04 19:09 rjeffries: perhaps you are too young to remember BITNET ? ;-)) 2011-08-04 19:11 those were the days. back then, a good high-speed link between universities was 9600 bps. the poorer ones, like oldenburg in germany, only had 2400 bps. 2011-08-04 19:12 actually I was not. I went to university at one of the first 4 Arpanet nodes. those were eciting times. 2011-08-04 19:12 "relay chat" was by sending messages between IBM mainframes (running VM/CMS), or non-IBM systems with some compatible stack for the IBM proprietary protocol. i think that one was even before SNA. 2011-08-04 19:13 roh: (oled) only lives for ~2.5 years. pity. 2011-08-04 19:14 A guy who wporked for me installed Unix on a  PDP that we converted from DEC RSTS os. The tape came directly from UC Berkely 2011-08-04 19:14 wpwrak is OLED really so short lived in terms of durability" 2011-08-04 19:14 wpwrak: true.. still that bad? 2011-08-04 19:15 roh: that's what the data sheet says: http://www.4dsystems.com.au/downloads/MOTG/MOTG-96/Docs/MOTG-96-DS-rev1.pdf 2011-08-04 19:15 rjeffries: says typically 15 khours on time, min. 20 khours storage lifetime 2011-08-04 19:16 of course, this would explain why the industry is so interested in oled. much like why they love lithium batteries. built-in obsolescence. 2011-08-04 19:17 lithium batteries? 2011-08-04 19:17 wpwrak: do you seriously think lead acid or ni-cd/ni-mn is more useful= 2011-08-04 19:18 <[g2]> wpwrak, LiPO have the highest energy density 2011-08-04 19:18 <[g2]> by LiPOFe are safer 2011-08-04 19:19 <[g2]> and nearly the same energy density from my understanding 2011-08-04 19:19 also less easy to get in sane volume. 2011-08-04 19:19 lifepo4 is a bit bigger than li-po. 2011-08-04 19:19 roh: nimh doesn't seem all that bad 2011-08-04 19:19 more volume. about the same as lead-acid 2011-08-04 19:20 wpwrak: its ok for short term bursts. but has a miserable lifetime 2011-08-04 19:20 yup. energy density is limited in the alternatives 2011-08-04 19:20 i would use li-fe-po4 everyehere possible. or lead-acid (sealed) for where li-based stuff is too expensive or weight doesnt matter 2011-08-04 19:21 ni-* is dead to me. 2011-08-04 19:21 my interest for a project I can not talk about is battery with very long life at very low drain. think a year or more 2011-08-04 19:21 rjeffries: li based one-time batteries. 2011-08-04 19:22 already on the market. easy to get 2011-08-04 19:22 [g2]: seems that you missed the discussion of the wpan fw a bit ago. currently, you can use IEEE 802.15.4 without cdma and without acks. atben has reasonably fast turnaround time but atusb is slow (due to the protocol spoken between host and atusb being slowed down by how uhci is implemented) 2011-08-04 19:23 roh: CR2032 !!!! ;-) 2011-08-04 19:23 intended for usecases like fire alarms or remote controls where you only need a very low amount of energy over a looong time and loose more by self-discharge than useage with regular batteries 2011-08-04 19:23 wpwrak: nope. those are much to low energy for drive a smoke alarm 2011-08-04 19:24 roh: make it a silent alarm then ;-) 2011-08-04 19:25 [g2]: but i have an improved protocol/firmware/driver for atusb in the works that should improve the turn-around time. that will also be an opportunity to switch on the chip's cdma and auto-ack features. with these, proper TCP-over-dirtpan should be possible. (right now, the lack of CDMA makes connections with more than very little traffic stall) 2011-08-04 19:25 <[g2]> wpwrak, thx... Sorry I haven't been following the logs as I should 2011-08-04 19:27 wpwrak: we have enough alarm cases that we use regular alkaline 9V blocks now 2011-08-04 19:27 works for ~2 years 2011-08-04 19:28 as long as you remember to replace it in time ... 2011-08-04 19:28 it signals when empty enough 2011-08-04 19:28 ah, nice 2011-08-04 19:29 they even mandate smoke alarms now.. not bad considered there are many torched buildings lately 2011-08-04 19:29 pyromaniacs on the loose ? 2011-08-04 19:29 or just the neighbourhood getting rougher ? 2011-08-04 19:30 i think criminals wanting to rent the flats to somebody else for more money than. 2011-08-04 19:30 just.. proove it. the roughness of the market when it comes to renting is evil. 2011-08-04 19:30 ah yes, the dark side of good tenant protection 2011-08-04 19:31 thats why havint smoke alarms and good locks are basic survival 2011-08-04 19:32 nice environment. i guess it must be almost as bad in the slums ;-) 2011-08-04 19:33 no. the market just collapsed. so these already criminals (well.. they build stuff..) got worse in their desperation 2011-08-04 19:33 can get worse, but then there is no reason to torch anymore. 2011-08-04 19:34 so is business working on speculation. fishy, criminal, bad for society. banks and housing are simply no business. 2011-08-04 19:34 bbl 2011-08-04 20:36 I got a nice as in "low" quote to assemble my small qty of femtoduinos a.k.a. "walking stick human saftey system: or WSHSS lol 2011-08-04 20:37 also known as a dead simple LED controller that is small and very portable and very low cost 2011-08-04 20:37 My walking stick doesn't need Linux. Yet. 2011-08-04 20:49 rjeffries: what does it need a cpu for? 2011-08-04 20:50 roh it doesn't NEED a cpu inherently. But that makes it easy to do some cool effects. 2011-08-04 20:51 roh will I am not telling the truth. I hope to add a couple of sensors so it counts steps, yada yada. 2011-08-04 20:52 i see 2011-08-04 20:52 maybe it will shock me if I do not walk briskly. I'll have to see. 2011-08-04 20:52 have you played with EL wiring for glow-y effects? 2011-08-04 20:56 wpwrak two short articles: https://plus.google.com/u/0/110897184785831382163/posts/dtMs4f5iKbQ 2011-08-04 20:57 wpwrak 2 of 2: https://plus.google.com/u/0/110897184785831382163/posts/WtfsUpWzvKq 2011-08-04 21:17 heh. lovely praise :) 2011-08-04 21:18 something to add to my CV. X years of experience doing this, Y years doing that, yadda yadda, N people praise me on G+ ;-) 2011-08-04 21:18 wpwrak: hrhrhr 2011-08-04 21:19 wpwrak: dont worry.. we can sit that one out. 2011-08-04 21:31 rjeffries: (walking stick) add some wireless receiver and sell the corresponding transmitter as a cheap car add-on. that way, your walking stick can flash when one of these silent e-cars sneaks up on you. phase 2: lobby to make this a mandatory safety features in all cars whose noise level is below a ferrari breaking the sound barrier ;-) 2011-08-04 21:34 rjeffries: well, phase 1.5. put the product on the market and invest in mass advertizing. then, when one of your walking-stick customers gets hit by an e-car, join a case with an amicus brief stating that the car driver did not take all reasonable precautions to avoid such accidents. that will let your customers sue for an even more insane amount. that precedent will greatly smoothen the lobbying process. 2011-08-04 21:35 (they did more or less that with finger protection for saws. someone invented and patented such a protection system, then managed to make it mandatory. voila, instant monopoly !) 2011-08-04 21:41 wpwrak you should be a defence attorney 2011-08-04 21:42 wpwrak i have to find a cool way to leverage 802.15.4 ob the walking stick 2011-08-04 21:42 wpwrak: http://www.4dsystems.com.au/prod.php?id=143 2011-08-04 21:42 weird company 2011-08-04 21:42 maybe it knows when i leave, alerts my wife and dogs and any criminal who have a Ben 2011-08-04 21:43 then as I walk back near the front gate, it gives another alert 2011-08-04 21:44 or given the 10 meter range of your modules I put a system on my minature horse. and place a few other 802.15.4 stations at various locations in or era his pasture an dbarn 2011-08-04 21:44 then have a reak time more or less HORSE GPS 2011-08-04 21:45 roh: indeed, ACME :) but i don't seen uSD->VGA. i still win ;-) 2011-08-04 21:46 roh that 4dsystems GPS module is clever 2011-08-04 21:47 wpwrak: hrr 2011-08-04 21:47 rjeffries: there may actually be a market for a system that warns an intruder of the approaching tenant, with enough time to make a discreet, non-confrontational departure 2011-08-04 21:48 au 29 seems not very expenive 2011-08-04 21:48 wpwrak indeed especially if a mistress or lover is involved. yes, that could be a money maker for sure 2011-08-04 21:49 au 29 in refernce to 4dsystem GPS microsd module 2011-08-04 21:49 if it is real 2011-08-04 21:53 rjeffries: (tenant annunciator) should actually be easy to implement in multi-apartment buildings: use an RFID card for front door access and sends a message via some internal network to the terminal(s) in the respective apartment. 2011-08-04 21:54 rjeffries: you need RFID (and not just a swipe card) in case the person in question finds the door open and enters without a swipe. 2011-08-04 21:55 wpwrak it is clear you will soon be a VERY rich man, on the order of Bill Gates, or at a minimum Steve Jobs. certainly on par with wolfspraul. ;) 2011-08-04 21:56 wolfspraul is rich? 2011-08-04 21:56 rjeffries: hmm, if wolfgang keeps buying fake component in shenzen, we may indeed find ourselves on par soon ;-) 2011-08-04 21:58 i had not seen this paper. It mentions Freerunner: http://www.usenix.org/event/usenix10/tech/full_papers/Carroll.pdf 2011-08-04 22:01 tuxbrain_HxxHhzo: that reduccion de precios, also will be aplied for internationals orders ? :) 2011-08-04 22:01 Ayla: probably not in the colloquial sense of "rich". i'm sure he has a lot more money on the bank than the average chinese, though. 2011-08-04 22:02 ah. So he's chinese 2011-08-04 22:02 "paul" isn't really a chinese name :) 2011-08-04 22:02 ah? 2011-08-04 22:03 wich paul you mean btw? 2011-08-04 22:03 the wolfs one 2011-08-04 22:04 Ayla: he lives in china. but i don't think he has become chinese ;-) 2011-08-04 22:04 you're sure? :) 2011-08-04 22:05 (paul) wow, nice puzzle ;-) look at his full name and it'll make more sense :) 2011-08-04 22:05 yeah 2011-08-04 22:05 my name is "paul" too 2011-08-04 22:05 I could nick myself "aylapaul" 2011-08-04 22:05 but his isn't ;) 2011-08-04 22:07 x_x 2011-08-04 22:08 just realised it's "wolfspraul" and not "wolfspaul" 2011-08-04 22:10 rjeffries: (paper on gta02) nice :) and indeed, such an analysis would "not [be] possible to the same degree on a typical commercial device." 2011-08-04 22:10 wolfgang managed to create the perfect mystery without even trying ;-) 2011-08-04 22:11 lol 2011-08-04 22:11 considers one more time buy a atben/atusb combo 2011-08-04 22:12 kyak: any updates with your at* stuff? i guess all is fine now and you have a nice wpan net? 2011-08-04 23:47 let the record show I set up a Mouser account and modified a BOM and placed an order. this is parts to build qty 5 femtoduinos