2011-07-30 00:00 I also want a "make all" that draws the pcb :P 2011-07-30 00:00 having said all this, engraving would still be nice, because the machine could then do everything without even moving the board (well, one side). but it's difficult. 2011-07-30 00:01 (the other side would be a pain, though, because you'd either need to position the board _exactly_ or adjust the machine coordinate system) 2011-07-30 00:02 (make all) yeah, plus an automatic tool changer ;-) 2011-07-30 00:02 ok , for this I need an automatic tool changing but well I can live just screewing idle 2011-07-30 00:02 get a 6 axis mill while you're at it :) 2011-07-30 00:03 yeah in conbination with a plastic extruder, and I can even make it a box :P 2011-07-30 00:03 you need a full line 2011-07-30 00:04 conveyors every where 2011-07-30 00:05 small boxes may be, like for atben/atusb. but for big things naw 2011-07-30 00:06 milling makes a lot of dirt. have a extra room for it or buy something with enclosure if not possible 2011-07-30 00:07 now seriously, there is no more solution to what I'm searching for than DIY, or pay a windows licence? 2011-07-30 00:08 you know wine? :_) 2011-07-30 00:10 yeah I know it but, If I pay 6kÂ¬ I don't want to be the first to try if it works... and end buying a window licence :P 2011-07-30 00:15 askfor linux support,yuo-re the guy with the money, well, at least worth the try no? 2011-07-30 00:18 tuxbrain: usually if its parport controlled and runs with mach3 you can assume emc2 is possible by just adding config 2011-07-30 00:20 roh: does anyone still have a parallel port these days ? ;-) 2011-07-30 00:20 roh: (enclosure) DIY it !!! 2011-07-30 00:21 roh: i make the comfty box my mill sits in with my own bare hands. no noise gets in, no dirt gets in or out :) 2011-07-30 00:21 :-D http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Cordwoodcircuit.agr.jpg/500px-Cordwoodcircuit.agr.jpg 2011-07-30 00:21 wpwrak: yes. and its important (realtime) 2011-07-30 00:22 wpwrak: i have one 2011-07-30 00:22 but i think i screed it up.. 2011-07-30 00:22 usb isnt realtime enough usually. atleast not without extra hardware (counters/pwm gens etc) 2011-07-30 00:22 becasuse not use proper buffering.. 2011-07-30 00:22 screw* 2011-07-30 00:23 wpwrak: there are PCI cards and such for parallel adding port i think 2011-07-30 00:23 and pci parport cards are cheap and easy to add 2 more. (we have and use 3 parports on ours 2011-07-30 00:25 mmm roh... how much to mount, and test a machine with such characteristics: not very big, accurate (enough to do let's say atusb?:P), no need to be fast, drill surface about DINA3, with a dedicate computer with EMC2 installed and tuned ready to accept GCODE or Gerbers through Ethernet port, via ftp or whatever.... 2011-07-30 00:26 and including shipping cost to spain :) 2011-07-30 00:26 heh.. no clue 2011-07-30 00:26 you lost a bussiness ! ;-) 2011-07-30 00:27 roh: hmm, i'm a little afraid when you mention the parallel port and "real time" in the same sentence ;-) 2011-07-30 00:28 wpwrak: with a rt kernel it is. every other port on a pc isnt really (besides some chipset vendow dependant gpio maybe) 2011-07-30 00:29 tuxbrain: din a3 is quite large. the small affordable ones usually don't do much more than ~20 x ~20 cm 2011-07-30 00:29 roh: still seems hairy. i think i'd take usb + a microcontroller :) 2011-07-30 00:29 and emc2 forces you to run a rt kernel anyhow (and brings its own drivers for parport) .. there is also the possibility to use external or internal fpga cards if the frequencies get too high for the parport 2011-07-30 00:29 wpwrak: more latency 2011-07-30 00:29 kristianpaul: (circuit) sweet :) 2011-07-30 00:30 even the fpga is pci or parport via pci in the best case. 2011-07-30 00:30 roh: put the control loop into your controller :) 2011-07-30 00:30 ok 20x20 is enough is a quotation inquiry no need to be answered in a second of course but a wild guess less than 6kÂ¬ if the anwers is yes I canÂ Â busines is not over 2011-07-30 00:30 the business windows is not over 2011-07-30 00:31 tuxbrain: if all you care about is drilling and cutting the PCB, but not engraving, then you have lots of choices and you can expect most of them to work without too much pain 2011-07-30 00:31 if you require engraving, things get tricky 2011-07-30 00:32 chemical, chemical,chemical, you need dream with it tonight tuxbrain :) 2011-07-30 00:33 even with windows and that 6keur machine, i dont think that will be a one button to push solution.. 2011-07-30 00:34 also you need to consider suplies for the head, replacement part for the future 2011-07-30 00:34 oen button .. let's see ... 4th axis, tool changer, ... hmm, maybe 20 kEUR on a good day :) 2011-07-30 00:34 calibration over time 2011-07-30 00:34 yup wpwrak 2011-07-30 00:34 will be noisy too, with the vacuum and such 2011-07-30 00:38 also, once you have all the chemicals, you're also halfway there on your way to a respectable drug lab :) always a good options if those electronics don't sell too well. 2011-07-30 00:38 (drug lab) of course, it seems that pretty much any chemical can somehow be used to make drugs. so this isn't saying much :) 2011-07-30 00:39 common guys, no need to be a one button push solution, manuall tool changing is acceptable, and some maintinace also, noise is not a problem then enclosure will amortiguate the sound and due we will drill small pcb not wood panels there ar quite house vacuums not too noisy tan can make the work 2011-07-30 00:39 the enclosure will amortiguate partially the sound. 2011-07-30 00:40 yeah, cutting pcbs doesn't make so much noise. metals are worse :) 2011-07-30 00:42 of course, the sound-proofing box is still nice if you decide to make a bunch of boards at 3 am ;-) 2011-07-30 00:42 no one catch the glove to mounting such machine?.... 2011-07-30 00:45 any one knows this software (Circuit CAM, BoardMaster)? 2011-07-30 00:46 http://optics.eee.nottingham.ac.uk/eagle/eagle2lpkf.html 2011-07-30 00:57 i see a lot of "click" for a single button press solution ;-) 2011-07-30 00:58 (again) I'm (we are) not searching for a on click solution.... we are searching for an non chemical solution. 2011-07-30 01:02 LPKF ProtoMat E33 is sooo pretty 2011-07-30 01:03 just what we need but... window!! arg!. 2011-07-30 01:03 we have passed 2 years without need it an any part of the our job... 2011-07-30 01:14 tuxbrain: relax. maybe you should attend the camp and stay in berlin a few days.. then we can show you around and you can see what solution would be useable for you. 2011-07-30 01:14 cnc is always a custom solution imho. atleast if its nice to use in the end 2011-07-30 01:14 I can do a lot of things but travel :( 2011-07-30 01:15 oh. why? 2011-07-30 01:15 family guy :-) 2011-07-30 01:15 this is one, and other is a lot of task here requires my presence from now to the end of the year 2011-07-30 01:15 okay, i'm not going to write a pull-in algoryth.. whatever osgps does should work.. 2011-07-30 01:20 i see 2011-07-30 01:20 maybe to congress or so 2011-07-30 01:33 well ce ya :(, I will go to sleep without my magic pcb creator machine. 2011-07-30 01:39 wpwrak: I don't understand your question 2011-07-30 01:40 yes gta02 had mp3 installed, but after legal consultation we were told the infringement could most likely also be claimed if it were merely installable from servers operated by om, or if om would give instructions on how to do it 2011-07-30 01:41 now, if the advertisement saying that it can play mp3 is a complete lie, then I'm not sure, if that's the case you want to ask about 2011-07-30 01:43 that's a pretty bizarre problem though, since you are making a false statement to your customers. sisvel may bring forward a case of unfair competitive behavior, after which you would have to stop saying (lying) about the mp3 capability. 2011-07-30 01:51 (false claim) probably not really worth their time to go after you in that scenario 2011-07-30 01:52 (origin of that infringement interpretation) thanks ! i was asking because i realized that the only source for this concept is "wolfgang said so". and i realized there must be a little more to it :) 2011-07-30 03:01 arghhh spam 2011-07-30 03:03 wolfspraul: after last mediawiki update i cant see a human verificaion method for public editing btw 2011-07-30 03:04 wait what are you trying to tell me? 2011-07-30 03:04 we get spam? the math captcha is missing? 2011-07-30 03:05 yes 2011-07-30 03:06 main page got spamed about a load modification,in the orange follow box 2011-07-30 03:07 reverted now.. 2011-07-30 03:09 captcha missing yes wolfspraul 2011-07-30 03:09 oh nice 2011-07-30 03:09 yes I will look into the captcha 2011-07-30 03:09 yeah, bot like that :) 2011-07-30 03:34 kristianpaul: I just tried to edit anonymously, but the math captcha came up 2011-07-30 03:35 humm 2011-07-30 03:36 ah, yes 2011-07-30 03:37 it appear before save.. 2011-07-30 03:37 okay, that wasaÂ Â smart bit 2011-07-30 03:37 yes 2011-07-30 03:37 bot* 2011-07-30 03:37 so before you just thought it was missing? 2011-07-30 03:37 sorry for the noise :) 2011-07-30 03:37 yes 2011-07-30 03:37 no problem 2011-07-30 03:37 biased by the upgrade ;-) 2011-07-30 03:37 thanks a lot for helping me watch out and do the maintenance work! 2011-07-30 03:37 oh sure, absolutely 2011-07-30 03:37 on guard 2011-07-30 03:37 I don't want to go sleep and then have to fish 100 pieces of bot junk out of the wiki. 2011-07-30 03:38 np, newsbeuter do all the dirty work, i just read my news :) 2011-07-30 03:38 the upgrade went very smooth 2011-07-30 03:38 took me 30 minutes maybe 2011-07-30 03:38 now we have a shiny new mediawiki :-) 2011-07-30 03:39 The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-07292011-0018/ 2011-07-30 03:40 just missing the "Rate this page" feature, to look like wikipedia :-) 2011-07-30 03:51 indeed, namuru register maps is very simple and clever compated to gp2021, now will be a bit messy to adapt osgps to it.. 2011-07-30 03:52 but anyway, even if hardcoded.. it should work :-) 2011-07-30 03:53 btw i'm really considering switch to linux.. 2011-07-30 03:54 the milkmist-openwrt port is easy to build, and even the toolchain works, afaiki dint tried load to board yet :p 2011-07-30 03:54 you mean on m1? 2011-07-30 03:54 yes 2011-07-30 03:54 yes please do so, that's great 2011-07-30 03:54 pick what is best FOR YOU 2011-07-30 03:55 I know you wait/hope for mwalle to do the minimac2 work this weekend :-) 2011-07-30 03:55 true? 2011-07-30 03:55 not at all 2011-07-30 03:55 i can transfer binaries by serial port 2011-07-30 03:55 ha, ok. I thought I had sensed your excitement about that improvement :-) 2011-07-30 03:55 also i dont need ethernet, as osgps run stalone 2011-07-30 03:55 but wrong 2011-07-30 03:55 sure it will ! 2011-07-30 03:56 more Linux users is great, absolutely 2011-07-30 03:56 but thats for having a mm1 that i can ssh remotelly for later 2011-07-30 03:56 i dont like having the box off most if the time, when i'm not at homr 2011-07-30 03:56 s/if/of 2011-07-30 03:57 i dunno mwalle will do the work,will be niceÂ Â if, but i learn i cant count in other works to make a move :) 2011-07-30 03:58 we really have to find ways to get more Verilog and IC design developers to join 2011-07-30 03:58 it feels like such an underdeveloped space, no collaboration 2011-07-30 03:58 is hard, well you just said it once, i thnk, old club*** 2011-07-30 03:59 IC desing guys i know really depend on vendor tools.. 2011-07-30 03:59 oh yes 2011-07-30 04:00 they are bred to become corporate minions right from the first day in college or whereever they learn 2011-07-30 04:00 not saying they are very good coding somwthing, but the IDE save the day making the integration process very smoth :) 2011-07-30 04:00 so what's better - try to convert them? or bring new people on board who start from scratch? 2011-07-30 04:00 both :) 2011-07-30 04:01 whatever result first, 2011-07-30 04:01 also there is that "myth" that a fpga with no procesor is not as eximent :) 2011-07-30 04:02 exited* 2011-07-30 04:02 so,some people just want to do only thign, but when realize, no linux no ... ah that is hardcode..or i cant.. 2011-07-30 04:02 then.. 2011-07-30 04:04 what? 2011-07-30 04:04 :-) 2011-07-30 04:04 lost your argument somewhere 2011-07-30 04:04 hehe 2011-07-30 04:04 missing features in general, 2011-07-30 04:04 of course thats changing :) 2011-07-30 04:05 i think, for now mm1 soc is just aplication specific 2011-07-30 04:08 but having a better linux will change things, i believe, even with no mmu, is a better platform for others to start with 2011-07-30 04:10 agreed 2011-07-30 04:10 i'm convising to some fsf guys to buyaÂ Â mm1, at lest to run a really basic web server on it (with linux of course) 2011-07-30 04:11 and maybe it will finally drive someone talented to get so mad over the missing mmu that they will hack it up :-) 2011-07-30 04:11 autnomo.us in wich rejon is in, will be another source for users at least 2011-07-30 04:11 kristianpaul: oh that's nice, thanks! 2011-07-30 04:11 any bit of promotion or spreading the word you can do is super helpful 2011-07-30 04:11 thats why minimac2 driver is so important imho 2011-07-30 04:17 sure yes linux important on m1 2011-07-30 04:17 good reasons above 2011-07-30 04:18 btw.. how fast is it? 2011-07-30 04:18 i mean.. is there something like a 'clockrate' of the lm32? 2011-07-30 04:18 yes 2011-07-30 04:18 http://t.co/Gyg22Nt 2011-07-30 04:19 hmmmm... 2011-07-30 04:20 is that still untuned or will it stay that low? 2011-07-30 04:20 i think you can reacj 100Mhz, disabling some non needed coresÂ Â like tmu may be 2011-07-30 04:21 hm. so fpga simulated cpus are like 4-8 times slower than native ones given the same level of miniaturisation? 2011-07-30 04:22 or is there a fpga able to do something compareable to 5-800mhz arm cores in performance? 2011-07-30 04:22 it depends, what you want 2011-07-30 04:22 rejon: 80 mhz 2011-07-30 04:22 sorry I meant roh :-) 2011-07-30 04:23 and want you may want is not generic stuff i think :) 2011-07-30 04:23 roh: I think it's more like a factor of 20-30 compared to an asic produced with the same process technology 2011-07-30 04:23 maybe even more 2011-07-30 04:23 sigh 2011-07-30 04:23 and the same in cost eh? ;) 2011-07-30 04:24 raw production cost is always the same, and it's in the pennies 2011-07-30 04:24 fpga getting faster too, well xilinx s7 looks promising 2011-07-30 04:24 costs are determined by the business models of the companies making chips, the value (and investment) of their IP etc. 2011-07-30 04:25 I think the main thing we should look for is continuity. the rising tide. 2011-07-30 04:25 if we cannot achieve continuity, we will fail (with copyleft hardware as a concept) 2011-07-30 04:26 true. i still believe its the tools. 2011-07-30 04:26 roh: so it's even worse :-) our spartan-6 costs ca. 40 USD (other models go into the hundreds), whereas a 1 GHz ARM chip maybe 15-20 USD 2011-07-30 04:26 i for example still havent gotten used to binary tools and maybe never will again ;) 2011-07-30 04:27 yes correct, that's how I look at it. where's the continuity, how can we reuse free tech in the next improved product version, or a new product. 2011-07-30 04:27 if we get that done right, it will work 2011-07-30 04:27 the speed at which our ecosystem (any company) can make great performing _new_ products will be the differentiator 2011-07-30 04:28 i would be happy with something which competes against stuff on the level of a freescale imx 28 or so.. arm9, 450mhz, ethernet, nand/nor/spi flash and ~7usd$/chip 2011-07-30 04:28 I think we should look at products, including software. not compare chips. 2011-07-30 04:29 any slower and one only gets left boring products mostly or needs to compete on power savings/special features 2011-07-30 04:29 I don't understand the point of comparing chips. Are we sourcing? 2011-07-30 04:29 no not at all, I don't agree. you don't need a lot of 'mhz' for great products. 2011-07-30 04:30 wolfspraul: depends. on 100mhz i cannot even run a decent browser or ui which gets a vga screen driven 2011-07-30 04:30 (well, that's the point we are trying to proove. we better have sales to back it up :-)) 2011-07-30 04:30 yes but no browser on a video synthesizer 2011-07-30 04:30 use your iPad :-) 2011-07-30 04:30 true. still you earn a very limited market by that. 2011-07-30 04:31 yes and no. indeed we need to find paying customers. 2011-07-30 04:31 but it's a big world. 2011-07-30 04:31 very big. there are many opportunities. we need a good product, good marketing, good channel. then a little luck. but there is no reason you cannot sell 10,000 Milkymist One, theoretically. 2011-07-30 04:31 or 100,000, for that matter 2011-07-30 04:31 i mean.. i guess there are more armzone develboards sold per type atm 2011-07-30 04:32 what's your point? 2011-07-30 04:32 cheap and fast :-) 2011-07-30 04:32 it seems 2011-07-30 04:32 well.. i would like to do projects based on free hw. but atm its just not feasible if the end product is as complex and expensive to make as a mm. 2011-07-30 04:33 sure so maybe we can branch out something much smaller and cheaper 2011-07-30 04:33 complex as any other hardware i guess 2011-07-30 04:33 there was the Xue plan for a while, in the attic now :-) 2011-07-30 04:34 we could make a board with the target being i/o, dsp, rf 2011-07-30 04:35 and while i got loads of hw around me i would like to make new ones sometimes. for me that means i need to limit myself to manually or hand solderable packaes tqfp and similar, no bga. same goes for most people (means boards on mills/etching by hand/pcbpool or similar outsourcing) 2011-07-30 04:35 which after some research came down with 'no bga means no soc with ethernet' 2011-07-30 04:35 what's your goal actually? 2011-07-30 04:36 to solder things together yourself because you like the experience? 2011-07-30 04:36 to make a high-performing product? 2011-07-30 04:36 a universal reuseable free cpu to run linux on. currently people use arm9 or faster for that. 2011-07-30 04:36 well you cannot have it all ways I think 2011-07-30 04:36 something versatile as a linux based arduino 2011-07-30 04:36 I like high performance because it enables/unlocks software. 2011-07-30 04:37 you try to have it all ways again :-) 2011-07-30 04:37 if you insist on tqfp package vs. bga, you may still have a 90nm semiconductor inside, right? 2011-07-30 04:37 nope. i neither asked for high multimedia performance or such. 2011-07-30 04:38 depends on what you want to run. normal people will mostly compare with what is available today. 2011-07-30 04:38 and since everybody can buy/use the same state-of-the-art, you do have to make a decision about performance early on 2011-07-30 04:39 but running linux on <400mhz is pain (speaking from experience) if you want to do any one of these things: drive a vga display, use wired ethernet not completely low end, play audio or such. 2011-07-30 04:40 what device are you trying to build? which function should it have? 2011-07-30 04:40 all of thenÂ Â :-) 2011-07-30 04:41 I think we have a pretty good understanding of the 'hardware world', and improving. 2011-07-30 04:41 so for my part, I will just continue with that. and eventually we have the magic sauce together to make great competitive products. 2011-07-30 04:41 mostly 'connected electronics' .. e.g. a cpu board to put into your hifi amp, or a board to use with a tft as a home-control terminal with a touchscreen. or simply a device with ethernet which has some hands of gpios. 2011-07-30 04:41 I still have blind spots, and tools/processes I think can be vastly improved (use more boom for example). 2011-07-30 04:42 the whole point would be to make a board to sell and maybe single chips and or breakout boards to use on a breadboard 2011-07-30 04:42 there's tons of that stuff on sparkfun/adafruit/seeedstudios/arduino/etc 2011-07-30 04:42 nothing there that matches your requirements? 2011-07-30 04:42 well.. nothing has a free cpu. 2011-07-30 04:42 open 2011-07-30 04:43 puh 2011-07-30 04:43 if I were them I would even dismiss the idea :-) 2011-07-30 04:43 because I wouldn't understand the point 2011-07-30 04:43 it is, papilio board roh , i you like free arduino cpu :-) 2011-07-30 04:43 early on when I started with copyleft hardware, we tried quite hard to get in touch with the Arduino folks 2011-07-30 04:43 not easy because they carry their nose quite high 2011-07-30 04:43 but eventually we made it, we got a serious email conversation back and forth going 2011-07-30 04:43 currently freescale is what makes the stuff most interresting, but everything with ethernet is bga again also there. only the variants without are hand-soldering compatible 2011-07-30 04:44 and at the end of the conversation, the bottom line was that they are not interested in the entire concept/idea of 'free/open cpu' 2011-07-30 04:44 kristianpaul: arduinos are too low end for serious ethernet devices 2011-07-30 04:44 they are thinking exactly in the opposite direction "we have to dismiss this kind of idea" "we have to become better Atmel customers" 2011-07-30 04:44 and that makes perfect sense to me 2011-07-30 04:45 so they are focused 2011-07-30 04:45 they want to become better Atmel customers, over time. that's what enables them to make their products. 2011-07-30 04:45 hah (atmel loyalty) 2011-07-30 04:45 well, from their pov there is no way to sell something much more expensive that what they have, since customers dont really care. 2011-07-30 04:45 will Atmel start to work on a 'free cpu'? 2011-07-30 04:45 that would be a very strange thing to expect from them 2011-07-30 04:46 no it's all fine, it's just different things/concepts 2011-07-30 04:46 it makes perfect sense to me 2011-07-30 04:46 sure 2011-07-30 04:46 they weren't even interested if we would do all the work of 'freeing the cpu' for them :-) 2011-07-30 04:46 THEY WANT TO BECOME BETTER ATMEL CUSTOMERS :-) 2011-07-30 04:46 but no make sense for a open hardware project over the time.. 2011-07-30 04:47 not in my book, yes 2011-07-30 04:47 it will be just arduino, nice trademark :) 2011-07-30 04:47 we need a platform that will allow any company to come in, take our starting point, and be able to make a world-class leading performance piece of hardware fast 2011-07-30 04:48 the key 'bottle opener' is free software in that case. no need to sign ndas, to ask questions, to go through lengthy licensing talks. 2011-07-30 04:48 just take the stuff, customize, make, sell 2011-07-30 04:48 either that idea works or it doesn't work :-) 2011-07-30 04:49 well.. a proper working develboard with openwrt port which sells for <200$ would be something i would buy immediately 2011-07-30 04:50 i mean.. even with 200mhz or so for the beginning that would be great 2011-07-30 04:50 he 2011-07-30 04:50 we had some crazy plans to sell Xue for 99 USD 2011-07-30 04:51 but 199 USD would have been possible for sure 2011-07-30 04:51 currently people buy routers or so to do such stuff or use $arm develboard from olimex. but the ports are often a pain 2011-07-30 04:51 I think as we continue to build our free platform, the opportunity to build this kind of thing will emerge. 2011-07-30 04:51 without large investments 2011-07-30 04:51 we just have to continue steadily to build a truly free and (re)usable platform 2011-07-30 04:52 true. 2011-07-30 04:52 all the way to KiCad, boom, missing MMU, missing this and that 2011-07-30 04:52 what would be the minimum bom to run a nanonote cpu? (crytal, ram, flash? can it boot from sd?) 2011-07-30 04:52 so someone can realistically branch out and make something new and improved and focused on a new use case with a few thousand USD in cash 2011-07-30 04:53 you mean the nanonote board? 2011-07-30 04:53 maybe 30 USD or so 2011-07-30 04:53 put only the essentials on a board, wire the rest on pads in a square or like dil (breakout) .. sell it for low 2 digit euros 2011-07-30 04:53 99 ;-) ? 2011-07-30 04:53 oh it's all dirt cheap, but that skips over all the hard parts 2011-07-30 04:54 the hard parts are the tools, processes, testing, software ports, kernel drivers and stability, actual performance of key features, and so on 2011-07-30 04:54 true :) just thinking what the next step could be and how to attract lots of multiplicators 2011-07-30 04:54 an entire Android smartphone with gps and wifi and touchscreen can be made for ca. 30 USD now 2011-07-30 04:54 can and is 2011-07-30 04:55 i want to make something i always missed and which would make my own prototyping easier and nicer. stuff i like so much to work with that i would use it even in bigger projects 2011-07-30 04:55 maybe you need to be a little patient and hopefully Milkymist SoC and tools and ecosystem over time will become your starting point for such projects 2011-07-30 04:55 I think it's moving in the right direction 2011-07-30 04:55 but hasn't taken off yet :-) 2011-07-30 04:56 sure. as soon as there are no evil tools neede anymore ;) 2011-07-30 04:56 or start learning verilog or some HDL now :-) 2011-07-30 04:56 roh: alwayls will be *evil 2011-07-30 04:56 kristianpaul: i would if that wouldnt mean wasting another 2gig diskspace on sick shit 2011-07-30 04:56 10gig 2011-07-30 04:56 wtf? 2011-07-30 04:56 seriously? 2011-07-30 04:56 the xilinx ise download is already 3.7gb 2011-07-30 04:56 oh sure 2011-07-30 04:57 after installation it's over 10 gb 2011-07-30 04:57 kristianpaul: true? 2011-07-30 04:57 and one needs all that? isnt there a script to throw all not essential stuff away? 2011-07-30 04:57 hey,you're pickier than me btw roh :-) 2011-07-30 04:57 it's one huge thing, very hard to take it apart. I mean there's work everywhere in tools etc. but few people doing that, really. from a free software perspective. 2011-07-30 04:57 yes 2011-07-30 04:58 so it's like 10 people worldwide doing that 2011-07-30 04:58 kristianpaul: well... i just know from experience what motivates me and what not. gcc and makefiles always were my friends. 2011-07-30 04:58 good choice :-) 2011-07-30 04:58 and Xilinx alone probably has hundreds that continue to add more bloat to the prior bloat, every day. 2011-07-30 04:58 roh: it's going to take many more people to dive in there and take it apart and open it up. 2011-07-30 04:59 wolfspraul: 4.7Gb last installer for version 13.2 2011-07-30 04:59 even when it explodes or i switch platforms.. its always there. using binaries always makes me remember the countless times of evil hacks, workarounds, broken stuff i couldnt debug or fix even if i knew how or what it was... that demotivates more than my nosyness which is one of my primary drives. 2011-07-30 04:59 Sebastien himself has made a significant start with the llhdl project, but even that is at best in alpha state, and only addresses a part of the process. 2011-07-30 04:59 ah 4.7 already 2011-07-30 04:59 there you go 2011-07-30 04:59 maybe they have 1000 people adding every day, Monday to Friday :-) 2011-07-30 05:00 ans 12G installed 2011-07-30 05:00 we are trying all we can to free this 2011-07-30 05:00 really 2011-07-30 05:00 but it's little baby steps 2011-07-30 05:00 i know. maybe i am impatient ;) 2011-07-30 05:00 we can reflash boards over jtag now without the Impact tool (xilinx tool) 2011-07-30 05:00 that was a lot of work 2011-07-30 05:01 we can write the eeprom of the jtag-serial boards without the ftdi windows software 2011-07-30 05:01 that was a lot of work 2011-07-30 05:01 but there are things 100 times bigger than that waiting in line 2011-07-30 05:01 kristianpaul knows better than me 2011-07-30 05:01 kristianpaul: how about debugging and simulation tools? You use a lot of ISE stuff, or free tools? 2011-07-30 05:02 kristianpaul: which ISE tools do you frequently use nowadays? and which would be easy to replace with free tools? 2011-07-30 05:03 free tools for simulation 2011-07-30 05:03 well,the only ISE thing i need a replacement is sinthesizer :-) 2011-07-30 05:03 debugging with scope ;-) 2011-07-30 05:04 and a cheap logic analizer with my avnet board 2011-07-30 05:04 also using milkymist bios, very usefull for debug too 2011-07-30 05:04 which simulation tools do you use? 2011-07-30 05:05 icarus verilog 2011-07-30 05:05 hm. how many chips would one need to sell per revision of a soc to make any sense? 2011-07-30 05:05 cver for verification 2011-07-30 05:05 i mean... how is the cost of asic production in detail? 2011-07-30 05:05 and gtkwavefor the vhd out coming from verilog testbench 2011-07-30 05:05 oh that's very difficult to answer 2011-07-30 05:06 first - everybody is moving forward, so you have to factor that motion (and the related investments) into your plan 2011-07-30 05:06 there may be large investments going on around you that you can piggypack onto 2011-07-30 05:06 when you go to asic, you loose the programmability (of course :-)) 2011-07-30 05:06 and the ability to bugfix/update your product 2011-07-30 05:07 so you need to factor that in and express it numerically somehow 2011-07-30 05:07 (bugfix) oh dear.. 2011-07-30 05:07 there are steps between fpga and asic, 'structured asic' 2011-07-30 05:07 sure. thats why it shouldnt be too expensive. say.. 10-20E/each chip 2011-07-30 05:07 they have more unique pros and cons to be considered 2011-07-30 05:07 any optimization will make you dependent on the technology around you, so your design may depend on something in the fpga that is hard to move to another process, even another fpga 2011-07-30 05:08 finally when you do start producing, you may need to license/become part of proprietary IP of the foundry, even if you manage to not need any IC design IP 2011-07-30 05:08 there may be different models there with upfront payments, or royalties, etc. 2011-07-30 05:09 as a 'Chinese rule of thumb', you don't need to consider any move away from fpga until you need at least 10,000 pieces of that chip 2011-07-30 05:09 that's what I was told by very experienced IC designers who make these kinds of decisions all the time 2011-07-30 05:09 and like I said, even then you need to carefully consider the various 'move to what' options 2011-07-30 05:09 because there are many, and the costs differ widely 2011-07-30 05:10 so there is no way to build a non-fpga asic when the market isnt something like 20000 or more per revision? 2011-07-30 05:10 once you get over all this, if you remove all investment/one-time/IP/royalty costs, the wafer is always dirt cheap. figure 50 cents / chip (say for a 5x5mm die) 2011-07-30 05:10 he 2011-07-30 05:10 or how does the initial/running cost ratio stand? 2011-07-30 05:10 I just tried to tell you there are several factors to consider 2011-07-30 05:11 it's an equation with a number of unknowns 2011-07-30 05:11 what does a new 'mask' cost etc 2011-07-30 05:11 so I cannot answer your question 2011-07-30 05:11 because every move you make has pros _and_ cons 2011-07-30 05:11 short-term and long-term 2011-07-30 05:11 yes, the films are the most expensive thing 2011-07-30 05:11 once you have a film for a wafer, and all IP/foundry issues sorted out, you can make chips dirt cheap 2011-07-30 05:12 with my current knowledge, Milkymist the ecosystem would not benefit from any move away from fpga for several years at least 2011-07-30 05:12 true. and since its a small market maybe never 2011-07-30 05:12 it won't help us accelerate the speed at which the free CPU can grow 2011-07-30 05:12 ah I wouldn't say that 2011-07-30 05:13 we just have to go step by step 2011-07-30 05:13 let's look at a smaller problem - when/how/if to consider Xilinx -7 series, switch to Altera, etc. 2011-07-30 05:14 even that decision is hard to make, and for now I agree we should first max out what we can do on a Spartan-6 2011-07-30 05:14 our resources may not be best spent switching now, but it's a tradeoff... 2011-07-30 05:14 true. 2011-07-30 05:15 so if even that decision is hard to make, you can imagine that a decision whether to 'do asic' is 100 times harder to make still, it's totally speculative at this point. 2011-07-30 05:15 let's just learn more things and move step by step, then slowly the options that make sense will become more clear. 2011-07-30 05:15 on that end I am also following Andrew's homecmos project with great interest lately 2011-07-30 05:16 not that I think we will make our own asic or fpga in that process anytime soon :-) 2011-07-30 05:16 kristianpaul: or are you starting to setup your semiconductor home lab already? following Andrew's lab notes? 2011-07-30 05:16 hrhr. sure not. 2011-07-30 05:16 (own fpga soon) 2011-07-30 05:16 roh: oh, it may emerge as another options, Andrew seems very determined. 2011-07-30 05:16 not fpga, asic first. 2011-07-30 05:16 cmos 2011-07-30 05:17 wolfspraul: not yet 2011-07-30 05:17 but if anything it may become an option for very small specialized chips 2011-07-30 05:17