2011-07-14 03:04 http://hackable-devices.org/shop/product/nanonote <- Out of stockÂ Â :o 2011-07-14 03:06 yeah well :-) 2011-07-14 03:06 kristianpaul: thanks for the heads up 2011-07-14 03:09 founded just for curiosity i was checking another product.. 2011-07-14 03:14 maybe one day I setup a real reseller contract 2011-07-14 03:15 that way we either have active resellers that help pull in a joint direction, or we can focus on a good online shop and direct sales 2011-07-14 03:16 also I should do more to setup affiliate programs 2011-07-14 03:17 that way I remain in control of the quality of service, and enlist others to help me attract people 2011-07-14 03:17 so much good work :-) 2011-07-14 09:10 The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-07132011-0512/ 2011-07-14 10:19 wpwrak: did you ever try recvfrom on a ieee802154 socket? 2011-07-14 10:20 wpwrak: I only get garbage in the sockaddr strcut 2011-07-14 10:20 struct 2011-07-14 10:20 Wondering if this is not supported by the stack at all 2011-07-14 10:52 all i tried is in dirtpan :) so no, just read, no recvfrom 2011-07-14 10:53 but you can find out what's happening - you have the source :) 2011-07-14 11:20 wpwrak: sure, doing that right after lunch. Just thought you might have been hit be this as well. 2011-07-14 11:23 stefan_schmidt: naw, i take care to avoid looking for problems. they find me easily enough on their own ;-) 2011-07-14 11:24 wpwrak: heh 2011-07-14 13:54 this is for wpwrak http://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/Fahrplan/events/4453.en.html 2011-07-14 15:00 wpwrak: if we wanted to integrate ben-wpan on a one-piece Ya NanoNote pcb, how much trouble would we have to expect from the pcb antenna? 2011-07-14 15:01 if the cpu is a 4760, would you even wire it up to an SDIO port, or would you then opt for another connection to the cpu instead? (separate question) 2011-07-14 15:02 if it doesn't use the SDIO protocol, only the SDIO pins, then any group of unused GPIO pins would work, right? 2011-07-14 15:06 wolfspraul: I would expect it should go to the SPI hw controller. 2011-07-14 15:06 wolfspraul: If I got it right that one is used for the LCD right now while for that one GPIOs would be fine 2011-07-14 15:06 wolfspraul: at least thats how I understand it 2011-07-14 15:10 ok, gpios for the lcd and spi hw controller for the atrf 2011-07-14 15:10 wolfspraul: yup 2011-07-14 15:13 wolfspraul: (pcb antenna) i think as long as you can find a good spot for it, it shouldn't be much trouble. finding a good spot may be tricky, though. it should be relatively free-standing (so, left/right/top edge of display), and unobstructed around the meander 2011-07-14 15:14 wolfspraul: (ant) i think the antenna's ground area could safely be covered by, say, the LCM, though. in fact, this should improve antenna performance. 2011-07-14 15:15 wolfspraul: (ant) one thing to consider would be to add a switch for antenna diversity. that way, there could be one on the right and one on the left. (also as long as there's enough space) 2011-07-14 15:16 wolfspraul: (interface) hw-assisted SPI would be ideal. plus a few more gpios for control functions, one of them interrupt-capable 2011-07-14 15:17 wolfspraul: just idle curiosity or are you thinking in the direction of what should go into the ya ? 2011-07-14 15:24 sure, Ya pops into my mind all the time 2011-07-14 15:24 all sorts of Ya fantasies :-) 2011-07-14 15:26 the one I was just thinking about was a 4 inch or so LCM, 640x480 resolution, resistive touch, no keyboard (just a flat 4'' tablet basically), 4760 pcb including atrf, case unknown, maybe acrylic? 2011-07-14 15:27 but then I think through all the painful details and cannot really convince myself I'm even thinking in the right direction 2011-07-14 15:28 at least 4760 would protect some of our kernel work, I need to double-check that though, not entirely sure 2011-07-14 15:28 640x480 would mean a relatively simple upgrade path from 320x240 2011-07-14 15:28 resistive is easier to source than capacitive (well, I would need some sourcing tours for this Ya anyway, so it could change, but that's my current assumption) 2011-07-14 15:29 what else? camera module - well, would be nice but drives up complexity and number of things that can go wrong and need to be supported well 2011-07-14 15:29 for the case, maybe something with an aluminium mold ? that shouldn't be too expensive to make 2011-07-14 15:29 then I'm worried about market demand, if we are making an exotic geek toy that's not good 2011-07-14 15:30 and what more could it ever be with the specs of other tablets shooting through the roof... 2011-07-14 15:30 not sure about table form factor. at what size does the killing ground begin these days ? 2011-07-14 15:30 so I keep thinking :-) 2011-07-14 15:30 (tablet competition) yes ... that's where a keyboard would set it apart better 2011-07-14 15:31 USB host 2011-07-14 15:31 to me it's just one big range of tablets, from 3.5'' to 10'' and more 2011-07-14 15:31 2-3 x 8:10 slot 2011-07-14 15:31 so 4" would already be in the "nasty" zone 2011-07-14 15:31 (resistive) sounds good 2011-07-14 15:32 well, I'm not sure 2011-07-14 15:32 anything but capacitive will be labeled as 'outdated' by 99.99% of tech reviewers 2011-07-14 15:32 we just need to be real about that 2011-07-14 15:32 if you have a keyboard, the touch screen is less important 2011-07-14 15:34 and all the multitouch stuff is a patentfest anyway 2011-07-14 15:35 I'm not worried about that 2011-07-14 15:35 first of all no software would make use of multitouch for how long? several months/years? 2011-07-14 15:36 second, multitouch is implemented in the IC that drives the capacitive touch layer, so getting it 'enabled' is already not easy as the guys implementing it make a big fuss out of this feature 2011-07-14 15:37 the patents are a political game about markets between big players. it doesn't matter what hype-words some journalist uses in an article, those big guys would throw patent lawsuits at each other no matter what patents they are actually holding 2011-07-14 15:37 so no, I would totally not be worried about 'multi touch' because of patents 2011-07-14 15:37 let's just call it 'two finger touch' and done, problem solved :-) 2011-07-14 15:38 my concern is simply on ease of sourcing 2011-07-14 15:38 it may even be easier to talk to a multitouch screen because it's usually just uart with some simple coordinates coming down, wherease resistive is 4 wires and needs to go to an adc 2011-07-14 15:39 sorry I meant "easier to talk to a capacitive screen" 2011-07-14 15:39 the difference between single-touch and multi-touch is only in the software of the IC driving the capacitive layer 2011-07-14 15:40 "for eons, even the most sophisticated human beings have found one finger more than sufficient for communication amongst each other. thanks to sophisticated design choices, our device has the same capability and does need the "multitouch" crutches of inferior competitors" ;-) 2011-07-14 15:41 haha 2011-07-14 15:41 the main usability difference may be calibration. not sure how modern resistive screens are doing in that regard. 2011-07-14 15:42 a big problem with capacitive screens is fingerprints 2011-07-14 15:42 in any case, i'd treat the screen less as a touch screen but more as a touch pad. let the keyboard do the work with narrow semantics 2011-07-14 15:42 I use iPod Touch devices for work and I have to clean the screen very often 2011-07-14 15:43 which is relatively simple with a flat device, but would be a pain on a clamshell 2011-07-14 15:45 putting a finger on a small screen is not useful anyway, since your finger blocks your view 2011-07-14 15:45 it only works with relatively large widgets 2011-07-14 15:46 what about a touch pad on the bottom of the device? 2011-07-14 15:46 there are a few devices like that, but I've never used one 2011-07-14 15:46 :-) 2011-07-14 15:47 my main concern is software continuity, and after that it's finding a good market niche with actual sales potential 2011-07-14 15:47 mth: but ipod touch screen have a glass-like layer that make easier that cleaning task 2011-07-14 15:47 mth: (pad on bottom) not very table-friendly. but otherwise, probably quite nice 2011-07-14 15:48 yes, it's easy to clean, but you have to do it multiple times per day if you use it intensively 2011-07-14 15:48 sure :) 2011-07-14 15:48 so most discussions that compare to Apple/HTC/Samsung/etc or that propose all sorts of Startrek-like features will go nowhere, except to be entertaining 2011-07-14 15:48 wpwrak: do people put their NN on the table or do they hold it with both hands? 2011-07-14 15:49 I only have a Dingoo and I always hold it when I'm actually playing 2011-07-14 15:49 I need to find a niche where I can realistically sell, let's say, 5000 units. Or even 2000 units. If you think about how small that number is in consumer electronics, you will realize the main problem is to identify and zoom in on the customer, and seal the deal. 2011-07-14 15:49 only for gmenu2x testing I leave it on the table 2011-07-14 15:49 wolfspraul: (niche) i don';t think the "compete in the ardiuno sector" idea is quite dead yet, despite the lukewarm reception of ben+ubb 2011-07-14 15:50 wolfspraul: with many 8:10 ports and a better test point layout, it should be possible to be considerably stronger there 2011-07-14 15:50 wolfspraul: I know I've said so before, but wifi would make it interesting to many more people 2011-07-14 15:50 wolfspraul: also, if we own the design 100%, the platform would become more interesting for derivative designs 2011-07-14 15:50 I think about use cases first, Ben NanoNote is a great music player, and people use all sorts of pda-like apps 2011-07-14 15:50 wolfspraul: wich device dimention are you thinking using this 640x480 lcm? 2011-07-14 15:51 so if the Ya is a successor, it needs to continue to work well on those use cases, and add some new ones 2011-07-14 15:51 mth: and I've answered before - at least from me - never expect a Wi-Fi device :-) 2011-07-14 15:51 ever 2011-07-14 15:51 ever ever 2011-07-14 15:51 wolfspraul: (selling) i would try to see if we can find sponsorship for the R&D part. that also takes some pressure from the sales side. 2011-07-14 15:51 :-) 2011-07-14 15:52 sales pressure is good, I like it. I am just explaining my thinking, how I qualify different feature ideas for the Ya. 2011-07-14 15:53 #1 concern is software continuity, #2 concern identify and target a realistic market niche 2011-07-14 15:53 that's just me 2011-07-14 15:53 ben-wpan has to be integrated, it's something very unique and goes in the right direction 2011-07-14 15:54 (software continuity) be aware of CLI apps around.. 2011-07-14 15:54 what do you mean? 2011-07-14 15:54 no more vi device :) 2011-07-14 15:54 i mean around in current nanonote 2011-07-14 15:54 wolfspraul: for the lcm, my main priorities would be (in no particular order): 1) access to controller documentation, 2) can be sourced, 3) can connect without complex interface boards, 4) thin/light. 2011-07-14 15:55 i mean, just thinking in all current apps in the nanonote that require a keyboard.. 2011-07-14 15:55 jsut that 2011-07-14 15:55 yes, software continuity pretty much requires a keyboard 2011-07-14 15:55 oh, in my idea above you connect a USB keyboard 2011-07-14 15:55 or may be i undertood baddly software continuity 2011-07-14 15:55 that's clumsy 2011-07-14 15:55 no you understood perfectly right 2011-07-14 15:55 mini usb keyboard? 2011-07-14 15:56 yes, very clumsy, agreed 2011-07-14 15:56 like in the palm era? :-) 2011-07-14 15:56 worse. the palm wasn't really designed to be a keyboard device, so the keyboard was quite optional 2011-07-14 15:57 hum truth 2011-07-14 15:58 i don't think we need to be afraid of making a keyboard. it's something we haven't even tried yet, so it may not be as hard as one would think. 2011-07-14 15:58 you mean a diy keyboard? 2011-07-14 15:58 what exactly you with with making? 2011-07-14 15:58 needs someone with a CNC mill, access to some materials (plastics, rubber), and a bit of time, though. 2011-07-14 15:58 thats you ! 2011-07-14 15:58 omg 2011-07-14 15:58 hahah 2011-07-14 15:58 wolfspraul: "DIY" in the sense that we want to own the design 2011-07-14 15:59 when I visited our keyboard factory, I was really sad that I couldn't take pictures, or rather I didn't dare to ask because those 2 guys already went way over anything with us as their teeny tiny customer 2011-07-14 15:59 afaik the keyboard was one of the few parts of the Pandora that didn't cause problems 2011-07-14 15:59 they have some equipment there! 2011-07-14 16:00 and 6000 workers 2011-07-14 16:00 keyboards are very labor intensive 2011-07-14 16:00 wolfspraul: so skip all the fancy bits and do what you actually can do ;-) 2011-07-14 16:00 sure sure, I'm just saying. I like your mental approach' 2011-07-14 16:00 "want to own the design" 2011-07-14 16:00 even after our deaths, I guess :-) 2011-07-14 16:00 we own everything! 2011-07-14 16:01 in the keyboard factory I learnt how labor intensive at least the current industry keyboards are. I didn't know before. 2011-07-14 16:01 wolfspraul: not sure about labout intensive. there are designs that look relatively automatization-friendly, but one would have to analyze them a bit deeper 2011-07-14 16:01 they have clean rooms, I think class 1k 2011-07-14 16:01 god you have no idea, at least from visiting an actual factory that makes 4 million keyboards / month 2011-07-14 16:02 I mean they have enough capital to automate everything, and they do, but it's still very labor intensive, and lots and lots of steps. 2011-07-14 16:02 wolfspraul: also, we have to keep in mind the volume. an automated process step that takes a few minutes to make the keyboard would be quite okay if you expect to produce, say, 5000 units over a few weeks 2011-07-14 16:03 wolfspraul: (4M/month) and this is exactly the difference ;-) 2011-07-14 16:05 wolfspraul: also, even if it is labor-intensive, that alone wouldn't make it infeasible. after all, you're in china :) 2011-07-14 16:05 wolfspraul: and again, if someone has to work 1-2 minutes, say, inserting keycaps, that still wouldn't be a big deal for the intended quantity 2011-07-14 16:06 wolfspraul: of course, you may want to think of a contingency plan, just in case that 4M order rolls in ;-))) 2011-07-14 16:07 making keyboards sounds like a distraction to me 2011-07-14 16:07 wolfspraul: (own the design after our deaths) well, that's the real value we're creating :) a completely open complete process. that ya should be a lot more than just a gadget 2011-07-14 16:07 in the general market, the move to capacitive touch is unstoppable 2011-07-14 16:08 maybe there are some niches where keyboards will prevail for a while, but then an external keyboard, even if clumsy, may still not make it impossible to sell to such a niche 2011-07-14 16:09 mth: what is the pandora keyboard like ? did they just OEM it ? 2011-07-14 16:09 http://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/Fahrplan/events/4412.en.htmlÂ Â looking forward to meet you there :-) 2011-07-14 16:10 wolfspraul: (touch screen vs. keyboard) dunno. but the keyboard here has a different role. first, it ensures continuity. second, it acts as a differentiator. 2011-07-14 16:10 that project [openpandora] is such a clusterfail, it makes Om look like a stellar success story. just my 2c 2011-07-14 16:10 among many other mistakes they made the wifi mistake 2011-07-14 16:10 and the preorder mistake 2011-07-14 16:10 wpwrak: it's a rubber keys keyboard 2011-07-14 16:10 wolfspraul: well, if their keyboard is nice, maybe we can also learn from their successes ? ;-) 2011-07-14 16:11 mth: a la sinclair spectrum ? 2011-07-14 16:11 god no, please not :-) 2011-07-14 16:11 what I meant is, they got so many things wrong, but the keyboard works, so simple keyboards are possible 2011-07-14 16:11 I think in all honesty OpenPandora turns out to be just a scam. 2011-07-14 16:11 they have scammed and betrayed in so many ways, it's almost funny again. 2011-07-14 16:11 mth: is the pandora keyboard also pleasant to use ? (within its class) 2011-07-14 16:12 I've never typed on one 2011-07-14 16:12 it's scam entertainment 2011-07-14 16:12 mth: but people who have like it ? 2011-07-14 16:12 I think "don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence" applies here 2011-07-14 16:13 wpwrak: I haven't heard complaints about it, but the typical Pandora user plays games and doesn't work in vi all day 2011-07-14 16:13 ok, so that's why I lower to 'scam entertainment' 2011-07-14 16:13 which may actually be worth its money, given the show they put up for it, don't you think? 2011-07-14 16:14 I mean - have you ever seen something like this??? 2011-07-14 16:15 mth: maybe one could plant a text adventure to make hem use the keyboard :) 2011-07-14 16:15 it's not even open hardware, so thanks god nobody who gets to that level will compare the OP effort to ours 2011-07-14 16:16 true, only the software layer is open 2011-07-14 16:16 mth: what's the one with just a single step called again ... ? well, tehre are actually several. but the one that, i think, begins with "re..." is pretty cool. 2011-07-14 16:16 http://events.ccc.de/camp/2011/Fahrplan/events/4496.en.html \o/ 2011-07-14 16:16 which still makes it better in that regard than the GP consoles, where it takes a lot of pressure to even make them comply with the GPL 2011-07-14 16:17 OpenPandora is a scam, so I'm not sure whether I would rather want someone buy a GP console, or send money to OP and expect ? what? 2011-07-14 16:18 wpwrak: I'm not an expert on text adventures, although I have written a few when I was a kid 2011-07-14 16:18 years of excuses? 2011-07-14 16:18 "rematch". this one: http://www.wurb.com/if/game/1114 2011-07-14 16:18 wpwrak: OpenPandora took pre-order money in 2008 and is still coming up with new excuses for the folks who ordered in 2008 and haven't gotten anything yet ;-) 2011-07-14 16:19 can you imagine this type of longevity? it's amazing! 2011-07-14 16:19 wolfspraul: will you join the camp? 2011-07-14 16:19 and the excuses were always good and entertaining, and made you want to wait for the next excuse or dramatic turn 1-2 months later 2011-07-14 16:19 wolfspraul: see, in the end, they may outlast us :) 2011-07-14 16:19 well, I wouldn't want to have their problems 2011-07-14 16:20 for example they need to find a way to identify those of the early buyers who gave up on it on the 2+ years ordeal 2011-07-14 16:20 but how? 2011-07-14 16:20 die young, never have to worry about longevity ;-) 2011-07-14 16:20 if they come out with a statement now "sorry, we will never deliver", then they get lots of people suing them and what not 2011-07-14 16:20 wolfspraul: "2 months" is always the time needed to completion for Pandora, just like 20 years for commerical fusion power generation 2011-07-14 16:20 (identify persistent customers) that could be handled by the complaints department :) 2011-07-14 16:20 so they cannot do that 2011-07-14 16:21 they can also not just finally do good on their orders, because of infinite incompetence, and also financial pressure by now (preorder money spent) 2011-07-14 16:21 so... 2011-07-14 16:21 the show must go on 2011-07-14 16:21 excuses forever 2011-07-14 16:21 :-) 2011-07-14 16:22 no excuses to miss the camp :-) 2011-07-14 16:22 no I won't come, way too far to get there, too expensive, takes too much time 2011-07-14 16:22 mth: are you following op? 2011-07-14 16:22 they could say that they lost tgheir database and customers who still want their unit have to snail-mail in a receipt. make the address somethere in malaysia, with local writing. that should nicely separate those who still care from those who don't. 2011-07-14 16:22 I think for the show they put up as a tech project, they should setup a donation opportunity 2011-07-14 16:22 yes, I made the mistake of preordering one 2011-07-14 16:22 ahhh :-) 2011-07-14 16:23 want me to throw some salt in your wounds? 2011-07-14 16:23 then half a year later I got a Dingoo so I'd actually have something to play with 2011-07-14 16:23 so tell me. you are still waiting? 2011-07-14 16:23 yes 2011-07-14 16:23 if they would now say "sorry, it will never come" 2011-07-14 16:23 let's say with a very long and dramatic and emotional blog post 2011-07-14 16:23 would you 'forgive' them and write off your money? 2011-07-14 16:24 The Pandora website claims `delivery within 7 days', right now...? 2011-07-14 16:24 I'd ask for whatever money they have left, or part or whatever as compensation 2011-07-14 16:24 that's their big challenge now, to group their customers into the ones who already forgot, the ones that would forgive, and the ones that would sue 2011-07-14 16:24 *parts 2011-07-14 16:24 rozzin: nah, even though the 'premium' program was setup to betray on the early preorderes like mth, by now they are betraying the premium guys as well :-) 2011-07-14 16:24 at least they stay true to their core values 2011-07-14 16:25 wolfspraul: i think people's readiness to sue is greatly over-estimated. particularly if it's internationally and against low-value targets (so there's no lawyer edging them on) 2011-07-14 16:25 no, don't say that 2011-07-14 16:25 especially in the US there are a lot of 'small claims' courts that are especially setup for the small guys to sue the big corps 2011-07-14 16:25 and they are very effective 2011-07-14 16:25 I knew it was risky when I preordered, but it's not an amount of money that I'd cannot do without 2011-07-14 16:25 wolfspraul: where is the home of openpandora ? 2011-07-14 16:25 there may be similar 'arbitration' offices in other developed countries 2011-07-14 16:26 they have legally registered companies in the UK, Germany 2011-07-14 16:26 I've also got a stack of unplayed PS2 and Wii games and added up that's also a lot of money 2011-07-14 16:26 this is not the same type of 'sue' like then Apple sues Samsung 2011-07-14 16:26 wolfspraul: not US ? good. then they should be safe 2011-07-14 16:26 although I could play them any minute, it's likely I won't ever play half of them 2011-07-14 16:26 mth: so what would your reaction to that blog post be? 2011-07-14 16:26 basically you would be willing to give up your money 2011-07-14 16:26 sounds like 2011-07-14 16:26 wolfspraul: germany could be tricky if they still have those "rechtsschutzversicherungen" there, though 2011-07-14 16:27 unfortunately OP may not know you are in that group 2011-07-14 16:27 anyway, the OP excuse show will go on, for sure 2011-07-14 16:27 wolfspraul: I would want to get compensated in some way 2011-07-14 16:27 but it's a scam, really. and it's not open hardware either. 2011-07-14 16:27 even a broken unit would be better than nothing 2011-07-14 16:27 just a big incompetence show 2011-07-14 16:28 mth: maybe a t-shirt ? "i was among the first to pre-order an openpandora and all i got is this lousy t-shirt" 2011-07-14 16:28 I probably wouldn't start a lawsuit all by myself, but I might join a group 2011-07-14 16:28 ouch 2011-07-14 16:28 you are more belligerent than I thought 2011-07-14 16:29 you got 2 years of freak incompetence show already, that's not enough for your money? 2011-07-14 16:29 I mean - they don't entertain you? 2011-07-14 16:29 wolfspraul: (incompetence) seems that they lack the courage of doing a clean reset. we've seen this at openmoko as well. remember the quad-band disaster ? sean lived in fear for months because of that. and in the end, nothing happened. 2011-07-14 16:29 I seriously think it is entertaining, like in a bad comedy movie or so. 2011-07-14 16:30 yes correct 2011-07-14 16:30 need to make drastic back-to-reality decisions, or else you lift off into fantasy land 2011-07-14 16:30 do it properly, and people will even applaud your honesty :) 2011-07-14 16:30 wolfspraul: it's less of an entertainment if you still have a little hope that one day it might be delivered 2011-07-14 16:30 well, the OP case is hopeless 2011-07-14 16:30 mth: come on. you know how incompetent they are. 2011-07-14 16:30 like hope of winning a lottery, not a certainty 2011-07-14 16:30 let's give them a break 2011-07-14 16:31 among their many many mistakes was wifi 2011-07-14 16:31 just because you mentioned it above 2011-07-14 16:31 What about wifi? 2011-07-14 16:31 wifi is a difficult beast, and it already cost OP a lot of sweat by now 2011-07-14 16:31 mth: do you agree? 2011-07-14 16:31 Did they not get it working? 2011-07-14 16:31 I mean, I can vaguely remember at least 3-5 wifi dramas at OP. 2011-07-14 16:31 I don't agree that wifi is a mistake 2011-07-14 16:31 ha 2011-07-14 16:31 :-) 2011-07-14 16:31 seems you still enjoy waiting 2011-07-14 16:32 anyway ..... so, if a ya is to have sw continuity with the ben, then a keyboard is non-optional. everyone agrees ? 2011-07-14 16:32 it is difficult, yes, but it's so very useful that when it does work 2011-07-14 16:32 seems you like waiting 2011-07-14 16:32 not sure whether you want to buy an illusion or a functioning product 2011-07-14 16:32 I got a Dingoo to pass the time 2011-07-14 16:32 :-) 2011-07-14 16:32 mth: so are unicorns. don't give up on the breeding experiments ! ;-)) 2011-07-14 16:32 and now even if they would deliver the Pandora I'd stick to developing for the DIngoo 2011-07-14 16:35 mth: in 3 months you will have 3 year preorder anniversary, right? you think you get it before then? 2011-07-14 16:35 mth: or upgrade your existing order! 2011-07-14 16:35 :-D 2011-07-14 16:35 mth: no, they are already screwing over those guys as well now!!! 2011-07-14 16:35 :-) 2011-07-14 16:36 kristianpaul: I meant kristianpaul not mth 2011-07-14 16:36 that's website said ;) 2011-07-14 16:36 I don't expect to get one before 2012 2011-07-14 16:36 it's really unbelievable 2011-07-14 16:36 sure sure, i realize it now after readinf this chat and checking website 2011-07-14 16:36 wolfspraul: if it worked once, why not try it a second time ? :) 2011-07-14 16:36 first they make the upgrade program, a clear betrayal of the worst kind, and now they scam out those folks as well. argh. 2011-07-14 16:37 that's why I rather say 'scam' than 'incompetence' 2011-07-14 16:37 but mth, being an early preorderer, has more authority on this than me, a mere bystander 2011-07-14 16:37 so if mth says it's incompetence, so be it :-) 2011-07-14 16:38 I don't know for sure, it's just my nature not to assume the worst 2011-07-14 16:38 we should ask them if they could manage the ya project for us. they seem to have a very efficient approach to ensuring long-term financing. and their customer base doesn't seem to be a lot more unhappy than average. instead of complaining about shortcomings of the product, they're complaining about shortcomings in the delivery. what's the difference anyway ;-) 2011-07-14 16:39 'very different approach' 2011-07-14 16:39 :-) 2011-07-14 16:39 that too :) 2011-07-14 16:39 wpwrak: I think it's not sustainable though 2011-07-14 16:39 very few people would pre-order for batch 2 2011-07-14 16:39 if OP wouldn't exist, it would need to be invented. so entertaining. 2011-07-14 16:40 oh of course not 2011-07-14 16:40 scamming business doesn't scale well 2011-07-14 16:41 mth: let's see how they solve that problem then. maybe an enhanced model ? or maybe sell the IPR to another company that promises to do everything right ? ;-) 2011-07-14 16:41 they will try to sell any more unit they can make to new people 2011-07-14 16:41 while keeping the old preorders unfilled 2011-07-14 16:41 which is what they have been doing for a while already, and amazingly people like mth accept it 2011-07-14 16:41 wolfspraul: speaking of scamming, did yi ever get her ben back from that "business contact" ? 2011-07-14 16:42 so yes, they have a 'very different approach to long-term financing' :-) 2011-07-14 16:42 you are aware it's iirc been Carsten (raster) who tried to cooperate with them? 2011-07-14 16:42 wpwrak: no, many excuses, but she's having fun 2011-07-14 16:42 no surprise they were so reluctant 2011-07-14 16:43 the problem for OP is that they leave a growing trail of betrayed/scammed people behind, and it gets harder and harder to rise above that 2011-07-14 16:43 so they need to be very careful in their public statements, so that people like mth can keep giving them the benefit of the doubt ("incompetence"), instead of looking at legal action 2011-07-14 16:43 not a good position to do anything new, new product, new anything 2011-07-14 16:45 mth: you can search the channel here for me saying very clearly - preorder will _always_ fail 2011-07-14 16:45 I was consistant in that for years, and it remains true. 2011-07-14 16:45 afaik they were "not interested in any cooperation" regarding building a phone based on pandora 2011-07-14 16:45 some people think they can be smarter than the rest, and proove everybody wrong, but seriously. Everybody with experience will tell you that - "preorder will always fail". always always always. 2011-07-14 16:45 100%, not 99% 2011-07-14 16:45 that's because with innovative products, unexpected things will happen 2011-07-14 16:46 and once you are in a preorder situation, you cannot communicate with your preorder customers anymore 2011-07-14 16:46 you cannot ask "should we remove this feature?" "should we fix this and delay x weeks?", once you have several thousand customers you would get dozens of different answers back 2011-07-14 16:47 so the only thing that works is if you have 1 or maybe 2-3 large preorder customers, let's call them 'financiers' 2011-07-14 16:47 actually the Pandora wasn't all that innovative, it's largely based on the beagle board design 2011-07-14 16:47 that works, because you can communicate with them 2011-07-14 16:47 the main problem is that none of the team seem to have any experience with manufacturing 2011-07-14 16:47 or if you do something strictly non-innovative, like just a buy & sell trade type of thing. you collect preorders, once you have enough you execute the trade. 2011-07-14 16:47 no they are not listening 2011-07-14 16:48 they get exactly what they deserve and what was clear would happen 2011-07-14 16:48 the 'manufacturing' you mention there is a boatload of 'innovation' 2011-07-14 16:48 preorder in their situation = fail 2011-07-14 16:48 wolfspraul: the keyboard is admittedly one of the most troublesome bits. but we already know several of the steps can be handled efficiently. so just needs a bit more research into the remaining ones. in parallel, it would of course be good to see if, say, something like the ben's rubber-metal-keycaps assembly can be ordered as a finished unit 2011-07-14 16:48 it's easy to say that now in hindsight, so we shouldn't bash on them too hard 2011-07-14 16:49 wolfspraul: the pcb structude (pcb, domes, film) would be similar it not the same anyway 2011-07-14 16:51 wolfspraul: ah, and for the feature list: no NAND ;-) lower cost, less PCB complexity, more GPIOs to have fun with. a triple win ;-) 2011-07-14 16:51 :-) 2011-07-14 16:53 (no NAND) yes ! 2011-07-14 16:53 if no nand, then 1 or 2 SD slots? 2011-07-14 16:53 since one would be filled with the OS all the time 2011-07-14 16:53 we could have "perfect" VGA out quite cheaply via the LCM controller. up to 8 bit RGB (3+3+2 or such) would be very easy. just a few registers, maybe a driver chip (74125 series or such) 2011-07-14 16:54 mth: 2-3 of them :) 2011-07-14 16:54 ("prefect" VGA) perfect in terms of the timing. actually, the ben could do that too. one would just have to make an adapter board with a few pogo pins 2011-07-14 16:55 VGA and RGB TV-out are pretty much the same except for the horizontal refresh frequency, correct? 2011-07-14 16:56 ah, there was something about having hsync and vsync on one or two pins 2011-07-14 16:56 mth: yup. all the same signals 2011-07-14 16:57 mth: vga has separate hsync and vsync. and the 47xx too, of course 2011-07-14 16:57 it's one of those things we can design-test easily with the ben 2011-07-14 16:57 I remember seeing a design for a VGA to SCART cable, but I never built it because the TV-out from the Matrox card was much better quality than I expected 2011-07-14 16:59 is HDMI an option or is it not possible to do that while being open? 2011-07-14 17:01 mth: the 4760 doesn't seem to have HDMI capability 2011-07-14 17:02 wolfspraul: btw, have you found out anything about the 4765 ? like data sheets, programming manual, production status ? 2011-07-14 17:03 wpwrak, i wrote ingenic.. as expected no reply, but i tried ! 2011-07-14 17:03 1Ghz catch me i confess :-) 2011-07-14 17:04 1 GHz more like scare me :) 2011-07-14 17:05 erghh, it was about 4770 2011-07-14 17:05 wpwrak: the 4760 data sheet does mention the possibility to send 1280x720 to an external HDMI encoder 2011-07-14 17:06 no I haven't spoken to Ingenic in a while 2011-07-14 17:06 ah, maybe s/4765/4770/ then. get confused about their numbers :) 2011-07-14 17:07 they will just grind forward, copy/paste semiconductor IP blocks, tape-out, see what works, run 3 different software teams in parallel, see what works, in all the mess try to sell as many chips as possible, etc. 2011-07-14 17:07 zero continuity anywhere 2011-07-14 17:07 I don't care what Ingenic manages to manufacture, I care what software we have and whether it will easily run on any of their new chips or not. 2011-07-14 17:07 wolfspraul: sure. but some of their chips are a bit more long-term-stable than others, no ? 2011-07-14 17:08 what do you mean with 'long term stable'? 2011-07-14 17:08 this being a chinese manufacturer, they will make even 1 wafer for you, so moq maybe 500-1000 chips or so 2011-07-14 17:08 like 4740? :-) 2011-07-14 17:08 wolfspraul: (don't care) if you want to make a device, you need to know the chip ... 2011-07-14 17:08 oh sure, I'm just saying I don't go there to learn about their latest features, I go there to look for continuity paths for our software 2011-07-14 17:09 so I need to look at the kernel and ask lars first, not Ingenic... 2011-07-14 17:09 oh, if you can just order a la carte, then it's indeed easy 2011-07-14 17:09 or Ingenic can pay Lars for work, if he's interesting, but I doubt I can convince Ingenic about this, no matter how much they waste in their crazy internal efforts 2011-07-14 17:09 "if he's interested" 2011-07-14 17:09 iirc larsc has a 4760 dev board 2011-07-14 17:10 yes, and I think some 4760 support is already showing up in a unified kernel, I just have no overview 2011-07-14 17:10 mth: don't worry about HDMI and 'open' 2011-07-14 17:10 well, he does have a track record of getting drivers merged into mainline, but I don't know if they are already at a point where they consider that important 2011-07-14 17:10 that's the usual scare tactic 2011-07-14 17:10 we have this problem in many areas, even USB (no trademark/logo rights), *SD (all sorts of FUD), etc. 2011-07-14 17:11 so if we do anything with HDMI, for sure it won't be HDMI 2011-07-14 17:11 it will be the Qi Digital Video Interface, QDVI 2011-07-14 17:11 so it won't be called HDMI, but it will conveniently accept a HDMI cable? 2011-07-14 17:11 or something else out of Werner's kitchen 2011-07-14 17:12 we will test HDMI interoperability to our newly created standard later 2011-07-14 17:12 these kinds of organizations work with 3 weapons: 2011-07-14 17:12 1) trademarks 2011-07-14 17:12 2) copyrights 2011-07-14 17:12 3) patents 2011-07-14 17:12 #1 also includes logos (quite important on the retail side actually) 2011-07-14 17:12 and then trade secrets, but since we don't break into anybodys office that's never a problem for us 2011-07-14 17:13 #2 is easy, since we only use proper free software 2011-07-14 17:13 #1, well, no 'HDMI' anywhere, also no claims of 'HDMI compatibility' (only the trademark owner has the right to claim compatibility) 2011-07-14 17:14 #3 will always hang over anybody, I go by practical threats and afaik HDMI is not known to be an aggressive patent enforcer. If they are, I would like to find out. 2011-07-14 17:14 we could "leak" the BOM, with the part identified (by the manufacturer) as "HDMI receptacle" or such :) 2011-07-14 17:15 no it won't help, we have to work clean 2011-07-14 17:15 trademark is trademark 2011-07-14 17:15 that is actually a problem on the sales/retail side, in brochures, etc. 2011-07-14 17:15 does it realy work thay way? for example 3rd party controllers for PlayStation list the name "PlayStation" on their boxes to identify the system it can be used with, but do not use the logo since they are not approved by Sony 2011-07-14 17:15