2011-06-28 01:10 wpwrak, man, i hope i don't need to check mounted conditions of atben & atusb, but seems that i have to do after read your email. :-) 2011-06-28 01:14 benefit of the doubt ? ;-) 2011-06-28 01:37 after quick checking, no obvious bad1~3 on mine. :-) btw, the packing for atben & atusb is not good though, they are wrapped together in small box without seperate each piece, this may cause resistor missed. since i can't see deeply and clearly it from that atusb-bad2.jpg 2011-06-28 01:39 the possible reasons are either smt machine is under fine tune and didn't mount that resistor or drop by collision(wrapping together), this can be determined on seeing both resistor' two pads's soldering condition. 2011-06-28 01:41 if the two pads are well-soldering and no symptom on resistor mounted, then smt machine missed; or the other reason. :-) 2011-06-28 01:48 wpwrak, your atusb-bad1.jpg is likely the same story while my jtag first panel mounted, one(single piece) of them(panel) they was trying to pick and place at first time then later smt operator who forgot to place correctly back though. :-) no AOI, no visualization manually. :-) It's seem that often to happen in first panel mounted out. not surprised though. :-) 2011-06-28 02:17 methril: do you go to FISL? 2011-06-28 03:04 aw: (condition) naw, tuxbrain did the checking for you already ;-) 2011-06-28 03:06 wpwrak, ha..i misunderstood already. ;-) 2011-06-28 03:07 aw: (bad2) the board already had problems before shipping. so i blame pick and place :) but you're making a good point. the wrapping isn't ideal. 2011-06-28 04:47 does anyone know under what license the arduino design files are ? 2011-06-28 04:50 ah, found it 2011-06-28 04:50 wich one? 2011-06-28 04:50 gn8 !! 2011-06-28 04:51 http://www.arduino.cc/en/Guide/Introduction says CC_BY-SA, GPL, LGPL 2011-06-28 04:52 but thats wiki? 2011-06-28 04:53 wiki describing the license, etc. :) the actual files are here: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware 2011-06-28 04:57 hmm, how open is the OpenPandora hardware design ? i don't see any links to schematics, layout, design files, ... 2011-06-28 04:57 seems they make clear distinction between sources and trademark, good 2011-06-28 05:21 kristianpaul: by the way, a few questions about your GPS project: 2011-06-28 05:21 kristianpaul: when it's done, do you think it'll still use an FPGA/CPLD ? or is this still completely open ? 2011-06-28 05:22 kristianpaul: then, do you envision that it will have a case ? 2011-06-28 06:17 wolfspraul: good that you're here ;-) question: how should i describe the origin of the qi-hw project ? "Started by Wolfgang Spraul (ex-Openmoko)" ? 2011-06-28 06:20 wpwrak: hmm. it was a whole group, Steve, Yi, Xiangfu, Mirko Lindner, me 2011-06-28 06:20 Adam 2011-06-28 06:21 "started by disgruntled ex-openmokoers" ? :) 2011-06-28 06:21 but honestly we were also following gta02-core at the beginning, in tools 2011-06-28 06:22 oh, actually 2011-06-28 06:23 Lars and Mirko Vogt were also there pretty much from the beginning I think 2011-06-28 06:23 and they did openwrt for gta02 as well before 2011-06-28 06:23 it's all inter-twined in different ways 2011-06-28 06:26 and you also didn't rest for one day, the continuity is through gta02-core 2011-06-28 06:26 which I would have love to support and help with, but it was impossible due to component shortages and just inaccesibility of many pieces 2011-06-28 06:31 so ... "started by disgruntled ex-openmokoers" ? 2011-06-28 06:33 and what would have been the objectives when making the ben ? "get started" ? (even with compromises) 2011-06-28 06:33 be careful with the om reference 2011-06-28 06:34 many people do not have the best memories 2011-06-28 06:34 it's like "oh, the guys that already screwed me over with .... (om product)" 2011-06-28 06:34 so you either have to be very proud of that history, or just silence it :-) 2011-06-28 06:34 'disgruntled' is also not good 2011-06-28 06:34 we were all properly fired 2011-06-28 06:35 our employer turned to the dark side 2011-06-28 06:35 I think that's more than fair to say after the record they have accumulated since then 2011-06-28 06:35 nowadays they explicitly forbit reverse engineering in their tos etc. 2011-06-28 06:35 so maybe it's the happy ex-om folks :-) 2011-06-28 06:36 the ones that stick to what is truly good and don't give up on the first speed bump? 2011-06-28 06:36 :-) 2011-06-28 06:36 "started by happily ex-openmokoers" ? 2011-06-28 06:36 yeah, OM turned right to copyright, the happy folks turned left to copyleft 2011-06-28 06:36 parting ways :-) 2011-06-28 06:37 ah, and sales figures: how many ben have you sold so far, counting stock at distributors as sold if they've paid for it ? ~1300 ? 2011-06-28 06:37 yes, about right 2011-06-28 06:37 so happily ex-openmokoers 2011-06-28 06:37 it's up to you, you remember the entire history same as me 2011-06-28 06:37 that's a matter of judgment 2011-06-28 06:38 om reference - yes or no? up to you 2011-06-28 06:38 disgruntled? no, not me 2011-06-28 06:38 are you disgruntled? 2011-06-28 06:38 disgruntled about the way things ended 2011-06-28 06:38 I didn't join 02-core because I saw the component problems early, but I hope that doesn't make me disgruntled. 2011-06-28 06:38 why? they turned back to their natural habitat 2011-06-28 06:38 ;-) 2011-06-28 06:39 greedy darwinists, bean counters piling up money 2011-06-28 06:39 if it makes them happy, why not? :-) 2011-06-28 06:40 so .. ben objective: get started ? have a rallying point ? make a first step ? 2011-06-28 06:40 you can say 'keep the true spirit of om < 2010 alive' 2011-06-28 06:40 but that's too much om reference imho 2011-06-28 06:40 ben was to apply all that we had learnt at om 2011-06-28 06:41 there was a long list somewhere, like 1-10 or so 2011-06-28 06:41 for example stay out of RF until the rest works 2011-06-28 06:41 so "do product development right " ? 2011-06-28 06:42 ben is gta02 minus all the stuff that actually doesn't work in gta02 anyway 2011-06-28 06:42 no? 2011-06-28 06:42 :-) 2011-06-28 06:42 ;-)) 2011-06-28 06:42 seriously 2011-06-28 06:42 well, the hi-res lcm worked pretty well 2011-06-28 06:42 maybe gps works, sort of 2011-06-28 06:42 nah 2011-06-28 06:42 after years of flicker-fixing ;-) 2011-06-28 06:43 that's what clogged up all the bandwidth, glamo memory bus etc. 2011-06-28 06:44 it would have been better to operate the unit in 320x240 all the time, but that was also stupid because now that nice lcm was in the box... 2011-06-28 06:44 so it's like go down A, and you have a set of problems, go down B, and you have another set of problems 2011-06-28 06:44 with the Ben the whole thing was so simple that we wouldn't get stuck like this 2011-06-28 06:44 which is true until today 2011-06-28 06:44 now we can (and have to) think about the way forward 2011-06-28 06:45 add features without breaking our ability to maintain the features, fully exploit them, etc. 2011-06-28 06:46 any cpu upgrade will give us more than enough memory bandwidth to do full vga or wvga or such. (if you can find an lcm :) 2011-06-28 06:50 do you know if anything about the hw design of openpandora is open ? 2011-06-28 06:50 nothing 2011-06-28 06:50 but that project is so far off-chart by many standards, I do suggest you to not mention it or associate your name with it 2011-06-28 06:51 they did everything wrong we did with gta02, and much more :-) 2011-06-28 06:51 until today people who have 'pre-ordere' in late 2008 haven't received their units 2011-06-28 06:52 of course they paid in 2008... 2011-06-28 06:52 but now they introduced the concept of 'premium' orders (ahem), which means that if I order now with fresh money, I get served before the guys who pre-ordered and pre-paid in 2008... 2011-06-28 06:52 okay, all closed. then i don't need to make a slide :) 2011-06-28 06:53 makes sense 2011-06-28 06:53 so they keep enough units around for the premium orders, while continuing to not make good on the people who helped them finance everything 2011-06-28 06:53 that's not going to go very far, of course :-) 2011-06-28 06:53 but for now it works :-) 2011-06-28 06:53 that's just the business side 2011-06-28 06:53 the original buyers are already pissed off or long gone. so you can't gain much ground there :) 2011-06-28 06:53 technically, they are fighting with huge number of testing issues, broken this and that, returns, etc. like gta02. 2011-06-28 06:54 the joy of manufacturing in china without having a clue ;-) 2011-06-28 06:54 their hw design is not open, only some pictures of pcbs (and they have said that the hw design is closed and 'theirs', not that anybody would be stupid enough to manufacture it) 2011-06-28 06:54 no actually it's even better 2011-06-28 06:54 they manufacture at a company in Texas that is prety much the only company that can do small volume OMAP projects 2011-06-28 06:55 ;-))) 2011-06-28 06:55 but there is enough room for them to add incompetence on top to screw up everything 2011-06-28 06:55 manufacturing does provide plenty of opportunities for that 2011-06-28 06:55 have they tried china ? 2011-06-28 06:55 oh god, no 2011-06-28 06:55 :-) 2011-06-28 06:55 save the Chinese from such customers, please 2011-06-28 06:55 ah, then i confused them with some other project 2011-06-28 06:56 they did mechanical in China 2011-06-28 06:56 the plastic parts 2011-06-28 06:56 but anyway, the bottom line for us is, even without the business ethics, that the project has nothing to do with open let alone copyleft hardware 2011-06-28 06:57 and they successfully screwed over their entire early support base, which will limit their ability to move forward quite a bit 2011-06-28 06:57 no matter how many 'premium' units they are selling now 2011-06-28 06:57 there's thousands of pissed-off early supporters waiting in line :-) 2011-06-28 06:57 here's a slide with advice for how to run a hw project: http://pastebin.com/uTf860VW 2011-06-28 06:58 what wuold you change/add/remove ? 2011-06-28 06:58 (i have more slides with the "donts") 2011-06-28 06:59 sure, why not. have no diff because I'm not clear about the context. 2011-06-28 06:59 what's before and after 2011-06-28 07:00 so it reads a bit lofty to me, but that's because I have to guess the context 2011-06-28 07:05 lemme upload a draft 2011-06-28 07:06 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fisl12-draft.pdf 2011-06-28 07:07 still need some introductory slide before "sourcing pitfalls" that prepares for the negative tone of what follows 2011-06-28 07:09 the "know unknowns" wuold be mainly manufacturing. well, i can just write "manufacturability" 2011-06-28 07:10 and s/continuation/what follows/ 2011-06-28 07:10 phew, I cannot really keep up with all the tasks flooding me :-) 2011-06-28 07:10 the 07-01 news may be delayed... 2011-06-28 07:13 how many SIE have you made ? 2011-06-28 07:13 and who was behind the SIE - can i say "university suchandsuch and Sharism Ltd." ? 2011-06-28 07:16 the gerbers of the ben and the rest of the original design files cannot be opened, correct ? (i.e., only the "derived" schematics exist as PDF and in kicad) 2011-06-28 07:17 hmm 2011-06-28 07:17 wait, one by one 2011-06-28 07:18 SIE was 70 board I think, something like that 2011-06-28 07:18 the project was really taken on by Tuxbrain 2011-06-28 07:18 Tuxbrain provided financing 2011-06-28 07:19 so it's all three in there: tuxbrain financing, sharim manufacturing, carlos design ? 2011-06-28 07:19 so it was UNAL National University of Colombia, with Tuxbrain providing financing and logistics 2011-06-28 07:19 correct 2011-06-28 07:19 everything is 100% free and open of course, anybody could continue, in any direction 2011-06-28 07:20 so basically Sharism Ltd. got an order for 70 boards from Tuxbrain, then we shipped according to Tuxbrain's instructions, most to Bogota, some to Spain 2011-06-28 07:20 something like that 2011-06-28 07:21 yield was not good, I think we only had 55-60 in sellable (100% functioning) condition 2011-06-28 07:21 after 1 week of manual fixing :-) 2011-06-28 07:21 chaos project 2011-06-28 07:21 yeah, exploding batteries ;-) 2011-06-28 07:21 yep 2011-06-28 07:21 'never tried' 2011-06-28 07:22 that run was done with too little brain, but luckily we survived 2011-06-28 07:22 I was able to manufacture enough 100% functioning boards in the end, though just barely enough 2011-06-28 07:22 UNAL + Tuxbrain + Sharism 2011-06-28 07:23 gerbers of ben, hmm 2011-06-28 07:23 I think we have pads layout files somewhere 2011-06-28 07:23 i think they're now 100% kicad 2011-06-28 07:23 which were created by reverse engineering under a license from the copyright owner :-) 2011-06-28 07:23 that's an arrangement :-) 2011-06-28 07:23 ah, wrong context :) 2011-06-28 07:24 but they should be 100% the same as the Ben, they are 2011-06-28 07:24 I didn't want to get the files from the manufacturer and release those same files, I wanted to make sure it's our own work 2011-06-28 07:24 so we licensed the design and then created our own files 2011-06-28 07:25 because honestly I don't 100% trust the origin of any files we would get from the manufacturer, no matter what they say... 2011-06-28 07:25 ;-) 2011-06-28 07:25 plus it allowed us to exercise a clean reversing process, learn a lot about that, eventually move to KiCad - all step by step, so nobody can come with FUD to me now and scare me 2011-06-28 07:27 M1 verilog is GPL ? 2011-06-28 07:27 I think everything new that Sebastien writes is gpl v3 2011-06-28 07:27 but m1 verilog has about 25% of sources from Lattice 2011-06-28 07:27 under the famous license you already know about 2011-06-28 07:28 open source after 3 indirects 2011-06-28 07:28 the other 75% are mostly gpl v3 I think, some contributors have asked for their patches to be BSD, if I remember correctly 2011-06-28 07:29 great. i just write "GPL" anyway 2011-06-28 07:30 does "one-man megacorp" sound like a good characterization of sebastien ? 2011-06-28 07:31 don't understand 2011-06-28 07:32 hw design, verilog, operating system, application, marketing material, ... that's a lot of people in one guy :) 2011-06-28 07:35 yes, the secret is extreme focus 2011-06-28 07:35 the downside is that the entire codebase is spread extremely thin 2011-06-28 07:35 from top to bottom 2011-06-28 07:35 if you venture just one tiny bit out of what Sebastien needed for his stack, the answer will be "not implemented" 2011-06-28 07:35 yeah 2011-06-28 07:35 which is the right way to launch a project, imho 2011-06-28 07:36 now others have to fill in the missing thousands of bits, which we have not been that successful at, yet 2011-06-28 07:36 so, "one man megacorp" (provided that he agrees being called that ?) 2011-06-28 07:36 nah that's confusing 2011-06-28 07:36 it's highly focused 2011-06-28 07:36 "one man army" ? :) 2011-06-28 07:36 spread thin across a wide range, make it work fast 2011-06-28 07:36 there's a downside to everything 2011-06-28 07:36 the downside here is that it's not very flexible (yet) 2011-06-28 07:36 sure. i can explain that if someone asks 2011-06-28 07:37 one man army works better, yes 2011-06-28 07:38 you forgot the GUI toolkit 2011-06-28 07:38 also new :-) called 'MTK' btw :-) 2011-06-28 07:38 do you agree with slide 3 ? "what is copyleft hardware" 2011-06-28 07:38 Milkymist ToolKit 2011-06-28 07:39 and production testing software, also from him 2011-06-28 07:40 that must be a biggie for a device with so many features 2011-06-28 07:43 don't know, it's just more code 2011-06-28 07:43 do you know if the publicly available fpga documentation is sufficient for using the chip (with the proprietary tools, of course) 2011-06-28 07:43 nothing really complex, just going through all peripherals, memory testing, etc. 2011-06-28 07:44 don't understand 2011-06-28 07:44 'fpga documentation'? 2011-06-28 07:44 the Spartan-6 has tons of documentation 2011-06-28 07:44 all for download 2011-06-28 07:44 dozens of pdfs, thousands of pages 2011-06-28 07:44 is that what you mean? 2011-06-28 07:46 yes, probably 2011-06-28 07:47 sometimes, companies only give you sort of overview documentation. not just a marketing flyer but also not a real data sheet. 2011-06-28 07:47 no 2011-06-28 07:47 everything open 2011-06-28 07:47 how do you like the "dodging patents" slide ? 2011-06-28 07:47 I am seriously flooded 2011-06-28 07:47 ;-_ 2011-06-28 07:47 my downlink is slow, and I'm downloading 5 things in parallel now 2011-06-28 07:47 s/_/)/ 2011-06-28 07:47 I don't even know why I'm downloading this or that 2011-06-28 07:47 email here, chat there 2011-06-28 07:48 so... I haven't looked at it yet 2011-06-28 07:48 i should head towards the airport in 3-4 hours. the more i can finish by then, the better ;-) 2011-06-28 07:49 http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/spartan-6.htm 2011-06-28 07:50 yes sure, I know 2011-06-28 07:50 that's why I try to answer everything here 2011-06-28 07:50 one point of copyleft hardware is our ability to pick chips that have 100% open documentation 2011-06-28 07:50 and we are successful in moving there, definitely 2011-06-28 07:51 I barely remember what NDA stands for... 2011-06-28 07:51 I think this is something that some poor folks fighting with proprietary Wi-Fi chips are battling with... 2011-06-28 07:51 do you think you could broker a deal with ingenic to open 4760_pm ? 2011-06-28 07:52 probably not 2011-06-28 07:52 they don't understand the issue 2011-06-28 07:52 "you have it already" 2011-06-28 07:52 I believe it's leaked anyway (not from me) 2011-06-28 07:52 it's unfortunate but no, they will not help to clean this up 2011-06-28 07:52 well, you can say that there ar hundreds of people out where who sometimes contribute, etc. 2011-06-28 07:52 they will not help to clean this up 2011-06-28 07:53 there are many ways to get these documents already 2011-06-28 07:53 but how will they answer if you pose that problem ? 2011-06-28 07:53 and putting them on the company FTP server is blocked by fear of legal action 2011-06-28 07:53 meanwhile on the practical side there is no problem, USB stick, copy, done 2011-06-28 07:53 ah, are forecast when "mass-market" M1 will start selling ? 2011-06-28 07:53 s/are/any/ 2011-06-28 07:54 hmm 2011-06-28 07:54 (ingenic) so they'll make you understand you should do it below the table 2011-06-28 07:54 there is a launch 2011-06-28 07:54 seriously it's a culture issue 2011-06-28 07:54 they will not even believe that you are still talking about this if you 'already have' it 2011-06-28 07:54 they will not understand what you want 2011-06-28 07:54 must be some trick 2011-06-28 07:54 or maybe you want to play with them make them look stupid? 2011-06-28 07:55 I can ask for putting on the 'company ftp server' 2011-06-28 07:55 it's not there now 2011-06-28 07:55 but it won't happen out of fear of legal action, real or not 2011-06-28 07:55 and no, I don't think I can make that fear go away 2011-06-28 07:55 you could ask if you can put it on your server :) 2011-06-28 07:55 I can send you the docs though, if you want :-) 2011-06-28 07:55 they will not officially answer that. I could risk it, yes. 2011-06-28 07:55 most likely nothing would happen 2011-06-28 07:56 but that would cast a shadow over our project 2011-06-28 07:56 because nobody would believe that 'chinese arrangement' 2011-06-28 07:56 what if you ask in a face to face meeting ? 2011-06-28 07:56 so that's why I don't want to do that either 2011-06-28 07:56 yeah sure, smile back 2011-06-28 07:56 do whatever you like :-) (that's implied anyway, like I said they have a very hard time understanding what I mean if the doc is already on my usb stick...) 2011-06-28 07:56 oh, strange arrangements happen not only in china ... :) 2011-06-28 07:56 yes but it casts a shadow on Qi 2011-06-28 07:57 I don't want Qi to be known as doing 'grey' stuff 2011-06-28 07:57 which may not be true, but some dirt always sticks when thrown at you 2011-06-28 07:57 but you'd do that anyway. only in one case with ingenic's approval, in the other case without it 2011-06-28 07:57 with an approval I could put the email from the CEO right into the same folder or so 2011-06-28 07:58 ok I would do that 2011-06-28 07:58 CEO_EMAIL.TXT 2011-06-28 07:58 but that won't happen 2011-06-28 07:58 I don't want to take on that greyness 2011-06-28 07:58 the documents are available... 2011-06-28 07:58 in an unfortunate way 2011-06-28 07:58 but it's not my mission to clean this up 2011-06-28 07:58 then I rather work harder on Milkymist ... 2011-06-28 07:58 erm. i chnaged the last slide to "the future". what's there ? finish M1, ben-wpan sw (firmware, drivers, etc.), "Dreaming of Ya NanoNote", anything else ? 2011-06-28 08:00 in page 4 you leave out IC design, llhdl/geometrical stuff/synthesis 2011-06-28 08:00 (grey) it would be sufficient if you have a verbal agreement. (as long as ingenic don't change their mind and go against you, which could be a risk, particularly if they get sued and need a scapegoat) i don't think anyone will ask you to show papers ;-) 2011-06-28 08:00 no they won't 2011-06-28 08:00 nothing will happen 2011-06-28 08:00 but I don't want to do it, it will cast a shadow on Qi 2011-06-28 08:00 anybody who wants those docs can have them anyway... 2011-06-28 08:00 why should we take on this cleanup? 2011-06-28 08:00 I don't want to 'spend' my reputation for that 2011-06-28 08:01 why don't you put them on almesberger.net ? 2011-06-28 08:01 :-) 2011-06-28 08:01 I don't care 2011-06-28 08:01 I will mention it again 2011-06-28 08:01 pms to company ftp server 2011-06-28 08:01 (slide 4) hmm, don't want to deviate from the linear flow of the table. i'll introduce FPGA issues with M1 2011-06-28 08:01 I mention it every time I go there. 2011-06-28 08:01 they won't move, fear 2011-06-28 08:01 they were on the ftp server accidentally for about 2 weeks 2011-06-28 08:02 incompetent server admin 2011-06-28 08:02 my mail to thank them for that lead to the removal, ha 2011-06-28 08:02 :-) 2011-06-28 08:02 ok. about the future - any more items ? or changes ? 2011-06-28 08:04 I don't see that slide 2011-06-28 08:04 url again? 2011-06-28 08:05 it says "stay small, poor, out of news" as patent strategy 2011-06-28 08:05 maybe you add "stay out of Europe, USA" 2011-06-28 08:05 80%+ of the world population lives in non patent-infested countries 2011-06-28 08:05 hehe :) 2011-06-28 08:06 either without patents, or ineffective enforcement, or parallel systems with political agenda (china) 2011-06-28 08:06 "stay remote" 2011-06-28 08:06 MTK turned into a multi-billion USD semiconductor that way 2011-06-28 08:06 'remote' is realtive 2011-06-28 08:06 maybe it's the center 2011-06-28 08:06 from my perspective USA and Europe are 'smaller niche markets' 2011-06-28 08:06 we can address their special needs later 2011-06-28 08:06 like some fatty lawyers 2011-06-28 08:06 no problem 2011-06-28 08:07 the consumers in those countries want them fed, so we add that stuff, as required 2011-06-28 08:07 I'm serious 2011-06-28 08:07 there are 7 billion people 2011-06-28 08:07 you can market to billions without ever hearing the word 'patent' 2011-06-28 08:07 does M1 have audio out ? or just in ? 2011-06-28 08:07 and patents are actually easy, it's just like a tax 2011-06-28 08:08 like a corrupt official in China 2011-06-28 08:08 not very different 2011-06-28 08:08 audio in and out 2011-06-28 08:09 many tax audits in China are 'solved' by paying a special 'audit tax' which is in effect a bribe to the people that audit you 2011-06-28 08:09 not very different from a patent troll, just different terminology 2011-06-28 08:10 so if you can make it here, or in many other big '3rd world' markets, the lawyers in Europe and USA are a friendly bunch 2011-06-28 08:10 their needs will be met as well... 2011-06-28 08:10 yeah. one issue is that many active community members come from patent countries 2011-06-28 08:10 understood 2011-06-28 08:10 but in your list 'stay out of USA and Europe' is missing 2011-06-28 08:10 MTK turned into a top-20 semiconductor like that 2011-06-28 08:11 don't ignore MTK like Nokia tried so hard, so many years 2011-06-28 08:11 updated http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fisl12-draft.pdf 2011-06-28 08:11 they violated every patent and copyright law you could come up with in your dreams 2011-06-28 08:11 every day, multiple times 2011-06-28 08:11 for 10+ years 2011-06-28 08:13 reshuffling the last few slides. order is not "running a project", "misconceptions", "sourcing", "patents", then "future" 2011-06-28 08:16 future: 2011-06-28 08:16 1) protect what we've built so far 2011-06-28 08:17 2) remember that free software is our core, that's where our innovation and performance comes from 2011-06-28 08:18 3) don't rest on achievements, aggressively push forward on performance, high-tech, without selling out on our free software nda and roots 2011-06-28 08:20 4) important areas: mobile, wireless, embedded, interfaces to analog (radar, sonar, ultrasound, sensors, etc) 2011-06-28 08:20 ha! 2011-06-28 08:20 not nda 2011-06-28 08:20 DNA 2011-06-28 08:20 :-) 2011-06-28 08:20 the ghosts from the past 2011-06-28 08:21 so yes, Ya NanoNote, along those lines - protect what we've built on the Ben, add ben-wpan etc. 2011-06-28 08:21 maybe also 5) tools 2011-06-28 08:21 boom, llhdl, layout history, ... 2011-06-28 08:22 6) be smarter on marketing, sell our story better, what our products can do 2011-06-28 08:22 7 billion people waiting for great products 2011-06-28 08:25 are there so many already ? 2011-06-28 08:25 wow. they've been breeding a lot 2011-06-28 08:25 yes, 7 now 2011-06-28 08:26 my memories are still from the 4 billion era :) 2011-06-28 08:26 and that's the perspective of many chinese manufacturers 2011-06-28 08:26 they look at about 5 billion potential customers 2011-06-28 08:26 1.3 at home, another 3-4 outside 2011-06-28 08:26 :-) 2011-06-28 08:28 the rest is unreachable or too poor 2011-06-28 08:29 I like "there is no tomorrow" 2011-06-28 08:30 should I download again/ 2011-06-28 08:30 ? 2011-06-28 08:30 any slides you need feedback on? 2011-06-28 08:32 wait a minute .. adding some more stuff 2011-06-28 08:32 under "let's make an iphone" 2011-06-28 08:32 the points you describe are all static 2011-06-28 08:32 but to understand manufacturing the analogy of a running train is better 2011-06-28 08:32 everything is moving 2011-06-28 08:32 everybody has investments already 2011-06-28 08:33 so they just try to find the smallest incremental investments to add new features 2011-06-28 08:33 iphone is a huge train 2011-06-28 08:33 high-speed train 2011-06-28 08:33 hundreds of partners 2011-06-28 08:33 who have made investments over 10+ years 2011-06-28 08:33 it is completely idiotic, really, to look at for example the iphone4 and say "we want to make that too" 2011-06-28 08:34 it's like a big Airbus or Boeing aircraft 2011-06-28 08:34 lots of know-how, universities, supply chain, etc. etc. 2011-06-28 08:35 so you have all these moving pieces, and they are coming together in a coordinated way (apple the coordinator) 2011-06-28 08:35 and then there's an iphone 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... 2011-06-28 08:35 we have to get our own train going 2011-06-28 08:35 as it will be as good as we can make it, and then we need to sell as well as we can, and reinvest the profits, and move forward 2011-06-28 08:36 once we define copyleft hardware clearly we know which parts we can buy/outsource, and which we want to build ourselves out of free components 2011-06-28 08:36 that's the characteristics of the train 2011-06-28 08:37 but this idea to look at some random product you see at amazon, and then say "we will make this", it will always fail. thinking is way too static. 2011-06-28 08:41 (train) hmm yes. of course, others can kinda jump onto the train quickly. lots of cheap tablets in china 2011-06-28 08:41 nah 2011-06-28 08:41 you know it's not true 2011-06-28 08:42 emphasis on "cheap" :) 2011-06-28 08:42 it's crap 2011-06-28 08:42 it does not work 2011-06-28 08:42 with someting like an airplane, it's harder to fake, right? 2011-06-28 08:42 first - it's big 2011-06-28 08:42 second - it's easy to see whether it flies or not 2011-06-28 08:43 but a little tablet - sure, many will be on the market (ahem) 2011-06-28 08:43 no, it doesn't work, really 2011-06-28 08:43 even if Samsung and others throw serious money at it, and they do have lots of things moving 2011-06-28 08:43 the moving aspect is important 2011-06-28 08:43 in manufacturing you don't have snapshots competing with each other 2011-06-28 08:43 it's a function of this product's performance and the efficiency at which I can move to the next generation 2011-06-28 08:44 you. you notice the details quickly:) 2011-06-28 08:44 basically if you do this, you will always be late, you will be expensive, and you will never know why :-) 2011-06-28 08:44 ah, another future objective bring ME under control 2011-06-28 08:44 maybe that fits on your slide 2011-06-28 08:44 "you will be late, you will be expensive, and you will not know why" 2011-06-28 08:44 still too long :-) 2011-06-28 08:44 raumfahrtagentur is doing great work there 2011-06-28 08:45 with limited resources, but it's the right approach 2011-06-28 08:45 (ME) yes, the M1 case is a great success 2011-06-28 08:47 [commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/: some screen shots for the talk (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/924bb95 2011-06-28 08:47 [commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/: added atusb-front.png, in-progress draft of talk (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6806d65 2011-06-28 08:47 [commit] Werner Almesberger: added openness schievements; more small updates (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b5f6113 2011-06-28 08:48 maybe you should highlight gpl v3 somewhere? 2011-06-28 08:48 there's all this fud about v3 being incompatible with hardware 2011-06-28 08:48 sebastien uses v3 by default 2011-06-28 08:49 so does xiangfu, anything from sharism. gpl v3 by default, why not. v3 incompatible with hardware is fud. 2011-06-28 08:51 naw, don't want to go into GPLv3 discussions :) 2011-06-28 08:55 yes but that was not my point 2011-06-28 08:55 many people think v3 incompatible with hardware 2011-06-28 08:56 just feedback, I agree, it's a detail 2011-06-28 08:56 your presentation is already quite head-heavy 2011-06-28 08:56 hopefully people will follow :-) 2011-06-28 08:56 need to add some girls on odd pages 2011-06-28 09:00 ;-)) 2011-06-28 09:01 http://www.markuskayser.com/work/solarsinter/ 2011-06-28 09:12 Jay7: nice link, thanks! 2011-06-28 09:13 energy efficient production is a whole topic of its own, hopefully we have enough resources (and sales) one day to dive in there as well, I agree that it's very important to invest there and move towards energy efficient production 2011-06-28 09:14 wolfspraul: btw, i think you can remove the "we've been slashdotted" on the qi-hw wiki ;-) 2011-06-28 09:14 he 2011-06-28 09:14 yeah 2011-06-28 09:14 where is it? is the page admin-locked? 2011-06-28 09:15 gone 2011-06-28 09:15 thx 2011-06-28 09:44 sourcing pitfalls: focus on the sources that are actually selling to you: in-stock, lead-time, moq, payment and shipping options 2011-06-28 09:45 vendor websites are totally irrelevant, more distraction than anything else, unless you buy directly from the vendor 2011-06-28 09:46 vendor websites are good for datasheets 2011-06-28 09:47 morning 2011-06-28 09:47 wolfspraul, unfortunately i'm not going to FISL 2011-06-28 09:48 was just curious :-) 2011-06-28 09:48 is it far from you? 2011-06-28 09:48 it's really near 2011-06-28 09:48 but i'm not allowed to go, i'veto work 2011-06-28 09:48 i didn't get free days 2011-06-28 09:48 and i've visit at home 2011-06-28 09:49 :( 2011-06-28 10:02 methril_: he, I see :-) 2011-06-28 10:02 what does 'really near' mean? 2011-06-28 10:02 less than 300 Km 2011-06-28 10:03 do we need to be worried about you being locked up in a dungeon? should we send the Jon & Werner liberation army? 2011-06-28 10:03 hehehe 2011-06-28 10:03 ah ok, at least that would be some trip, I see 2011-06-28 10:03 i'm not in a dugneon :) 2011-06-28 10:04 i'm in a special working force ;-) 2011-06-28 10:10 special dungeon force :) 2011-06-28 10:21 wpwrak: just looked over your slides (the .tex sources in git) 2011-06-28 10:21 maybe want to mention debian as well under software running on nanonote? 2011-06-28 10:24 dvdk: afaik, debian doesn't run very well ? 2011-06-28 10:26 on the Nano? 2011-06-28 10:26 I think we have, or had, some experts who ran it happily 2011-06-28 10:27 well, there seem to be users who run it as main-os on the mailinglist 2011-06-28 10:27 main thing is memory, I believe our Debian users use swap a lot 2011-06-28 10:27 no, of course openwrt/oe is better suited 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Werner Almesberger: kernel/irq/: EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL functions for dynamic interrupt allocation (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/5cdcaf4 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Werner Almesberger: spi_atben: correct interrupt cleanup order when removing the driver (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/d8bd10a 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atusb: Add my copyright and cleanup MODULE macros (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/4af7d80 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atusb: Cleanup header includes (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/a7a8c8e 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Werner Almesberger: spi_atben: refcount the master (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/d377794 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atusb: Big update and sync with atben driver. (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/42cd2d6 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Stefan Schmidt: Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/ben-wpan' into ben-wpan-stefan (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/4bca4d7 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/: added product photos (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/d627b26 2011-06-28 10:27 [commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/Makefile: added printing (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/3f8abd4 2011-06-28 10:30 alright, I need a break 2011-06-28 10:31 wpwrak: have a safe trip! 2011-06-28 10:32 thanks ! and thanks for the feedback ! 2011-06-28 10:33 I'm out to dinner now, have to make my way through cheap China first, passing all the Porsche in the parking lot... 2011-06-28 10:34 I'm the poorest of all here, poor foreigner. I can do cheap manufacturing! help! :-) 2011-06-28 10:42 "On FedEx vehicle for delivery" 2011-06-28 10:42 common you stupid vehicle 2011-06-28 11:01 kyak: they're waiting for you to leave the house for 5 minutes. then they run there, ring, drop a note, and head off again 2011-06-28 11:04 unrelated: nice modder's upgrade -> N810 as a phone http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=551420#post551420  this guy is awesome, wonder what the endeavour resulted in finally 2011-06-28 11:05 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=579019#post579019 2011-06-28 11:34 wpwrak: yeah, i have such a feeling, too 2011-06-28 12:05 wprak, (FPGA/CPLD) it depends, current development platform is milkymist, so FPGA is a sure, if let said we tought in porting to the Nanonote, at least a CPLD will be needed for some basic logic (shifter) to make acquisition easier, in the poorest man case no hardware aceleration could be needed ie, if you can sample data beyond 2MB/s and cheat using SIMD to hopefully speed up something. As a side note osgps was developed for a Penti 2011-06-28 12:05 wprak,(case) for sure, but before that a proper antenna tought for that case :D 2011-06-28 12:07 no fpga/cpld hardware at all* 2011-06-28 12:13 kristianpaul: ok, thanks 2011-06-28 12:20 ah, werner left exactly the moment atben/atusb arrived :) 2011-06-28 12:29 The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-06272011-1341/ 2011-06-28 12:35 huh, problems downloading qemu... 2011-06-28 12:52 dvdk: thanks for the help yday with octave, i just discoever this SoftGNSS just process real data, but anway the code can be usefull for someobdy else 2011-06-28 12:53 dvdk: btw you got you qi-hw www-data account already :-) (remenbering just in case) 2011-06-28 13:28 kristianpaul: (downloads.qi-hw account) not that i can see.  (tried: ssh, webdav) 2011-06-28 13:30 kyak: (build log) ROFL.   2011-06-28 13:30 "MD5 sum of the downloaded file does not match (file: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640, requested: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640) - deleting download." 2011-06-28 13:30 since when does it compare spaces, too? 2011-06-28 13:31 [commit] David Kühling: qemu-host: need to remove whitespace at the end of PKG_MD5SUM (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/b44ea50 2011-06-28 13:33 heh 2011-06-28 15:23 wolfspraul: i think dvdk was asking the other time for an account in qi-hw/www 2011-06-28 15:24 may be you missed the backlog :) 2011-06-28 15:25 oh, sure 2011-06-28 15:25 I will check the backlog tomorrow and create the account 2011-06-28 15:25 you can also create it, of course. very tired now, still a few mails then calling it a day... 2011-06-28 15:26 oh, sure i forgot time difference 2011-06-28 15:26 my day just started, shiny sun  and blue sky 2011-06-28 15:26 nice 2011-06-28 15:26 :-) 2011-06-28 15:34 MD5 is not very safe these days; are the downloads also checked using a different hash algorithm? 2011-06-28 15:34 SHA1 + MD5 2011-06-28 15:35 ok, that should be good enough 2011-06-28 15:35 i used that for signing logs at work 2011-06-28 15:35 yup 2011-06-28 15:35 I moved to sha256 for openMSX: although it's overkill today I think there will be a time that SHA1 is also considered broken in the not too distant future 2011-06-28 15:36 since it was already weakened by recent developments 2011-06-28 15:38 good point, you mean the hash values generally in md5sums.txt or so? 2011-06-28 15:38 can we just put sha256 there? I mean the name would be misleading then, right? maybe we should call it sha256sums.txt ? 2011-06-28 15:39 I don't know exactly, I just saw this: "MD5 sum of the downloaded file does not match (file: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640, requested: b6c713a8db638e173af53a62d5178640 ) - deleting download." 2011-06-28 15:39 and I was wondering if MD5 was used in addition to something else or just MD5 2011-06-28 15:40 those two are the same, no? 2011-06-28 15:40 the space was the problem 2011-06-28 17:20 roh: ping 2011-06-28 17:23 roh: could you ask Gismo about some additional nn(n)GB on my box lagrange? how about availability, price, etc. Possibly also sth "shared" and virtually network attached, doesn't have to live inside that vbox 2011-06-28 17:25 it's just a pity to see stuff getting taken down from a public repository, as it obviously been provided in error. It'd be nice to mirror such stuff 2011-06-28 18:05 aah, online again :) 2011-06-28 18:05 wpwrak, are you in Brazil? 2011-06-28 18:06 yup. just arrived 2011-06-28 18:07 wellcome to Brazil :) 2011-06-28 18:09 thanks ! :) 2011-06-28 18:10 hey ! 2011-06-28 18:11 how was the trip? 2011-06-28 18:11 short and uneventful. as it shold be:) 2011-06-28 18:12 talk is today or tomorrow? 2011-06-28 18:12 wpwrak, it's cold here isn't it? 2011-06-28 18:12 (cold) hahaha 2011-06-28 18:12 day after tomorrow. so i still have time to do my slides :) 2011-06-28 18:12 moment, really? 2011-06-28 18:13 methril_work: yeah. didn't notice much of an improvement compared to buenos aires 2011-06-28 18:14 kristianpaul, the south of Brazil has weather like Argentina (Buenos Aires) 2011-06-28 18:14 methril_work: the visitors from far away must be disappointed. no sunny beaches with half-naked girls :) 2011-06-28 18:14 lo 2011-06-28 18:14 l 2011-06-28 18:15 lol 2011-06-28 18:15 wpwrak, no Copocabana, neither Ipanema lol 2011-06-28 18:19 wpwrak: are you going to meet finally with lxo (Alexandre Olive from FSFLA) 2011-06-28 18:19 kristianpaul: ah, dunno 2011-06-28 18:19 you can ping him at #fsfla in any case 2011-06-28 18:19 kristianpaul: if he's here, maybe :) 2011-06-28 18:20 yeah.. maybe.. 2011-06-28 18:23 now, back to my slides ... 2011-06-28 18:38 wpwrak: just for info: i got my atben/atusb today, and prepared all tools (ben-wpan/tools and lowpan) both for PC and Ben. My PC has ieee802154 stuff built as modules, so now i'm building the ben-wpan kernel for Ben 2011-06-28 18:39 today is already too late, i'll start the engine tomorrow :) 2011-06-28 18:44 wpwrak: btw, ben-wpan kernel won't boot without these patch: 2011-06-28 18:44 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/tree/master/target/linux/xburst/patches-2.6.37/999-board-qi_lb60.patch 2011-06-28 18:44 it is for 512 Mb rootfs 2011-06-28 18:57 zgrep CONFIG_MAC802154 /proc/config.gz shows nothing 2011-06-28 18:57 perhaps, i will have to rebuild the PC kernel, too? 2011-06-28 18:57 anyway, time to sleep.. 2011-06-28 19:53 DocScrutinizer: please write a mail.. he is out 2011-06-28 19:53 roh: k, thanx 2011-06-28 19:58 roh: are you aware of some project trying to bring freedom (in software at least) to network switches and other related appliances 2011-06-28 19:59 like replacing/improving the default microkernel etc.. 2011-06-28 20:01 happen, that a friend askme recomendation about buying a network-switch, so i prefer said buy a Nway hub or something and implement the rest (VLAN, ACLs.., ) in the endpoints 2011-06-28 21:31 kristianpaul: nope.. not yet. 2011-06-28 21:31 kristianpaul: well.. besides using openwrt based routers as 'managed switches' 2011-06-28 21:34 linux needs 'too much ressources' for low end devices and higher end hardware which would have the ressources is usually shipping with something based on the switch vendors sdk, which use qnx or such 2011-06-28 21:57 [commit] root: fisl2011/: more updates; merged BOM into misc slide; added workflow (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/354ac92 2011-06-28 21:58 hmm :) 2011-06-28 21:58 rejon: heya ! welcome back on solid ground ! 2011-06-28 21:58 rejon: how was the trip ? 2011-06-28 22:02 good 2011-06-28 22:02 pretty fast 2011-06-28 22:05 yeah, us to .br is nothing :) 2011-06-28 22:07 rejon: have dinner plans already started to take shape ? 2011-06-28 22:08 hm, anybody digged through uclibcs locale handling already? 2011-06-28 22:08 should probably ask in #uclibc but maybe someone here recently played with it 2011-06-28 22:09 wpwrak, i go zen 2011-06-28 22:09 without all the whack ideology 2011-06-28 22:09 kyak: have you used the .config from ben-wpan/install/ ? 2011-06-28 22:10 kyak: (rootfs) hmm, that's the "new" one ? odd. i thought i already had switched. but maybe not 2011-06-28 22:12 rejon: (zen) i go "two gin tonic", wash the in-flight meal down with plenty of wine, then "two brandys". and zzz for the rest of the flight :) 2011-06-28 22:13 rejon: that is, for those ~40 h trips to/from openmoko it was two such rounds 2011-06-28 22:18 grmbl. i'm in gentoo update hell. it all started with includegraphics refusing to load a ,jpg . then i tried to update this old machine. latest status: i don't even have xpdf anymore :-( 2011-06-28 22:49 wpwrak: i bet in FISL u can easilly get a compact disk of another distro :) 2011-06-28 22:59 [commit] Stefan Schmidt: spi/atben: Start to rewrite the USB part to be async. (ben-wpan-stefan) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/85532c8 2011-06-28 23:28 Ordered a Ben Nanonote the other day, then realised I needed Linux. I'm thinking of loading Debian onto my main computer. 2011-06-28 23:29 you can use a vm as well 2011-06-28 23:29 virtualbox / vmware player etc. allow you to pass-through usb devices to the linux guest vm 2011-06-28 23:31 Bah, I needed to reload windows on this machine anyway. any objections to debian for a guy with very minor prior linux experience? 2011-06-28 23:32 no, I guess not 2011-06-28 23:33 all linux distros nowadays will get you to a desktop environment and a web browser 2011-06-28 23:33 the rest is google :) 2011-06-28 23:34 [commit] Werner Almesberger: fisl2011/: more cleanup (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a94acb5 2011-06-28 23:34 and now off to dinner :)