2011-06-19 00:44 checks if wpwrak maybe isn't completely awake from last nap :-P 2011-06-19 00:59 ;) 2011-06-19 02:35 wpwrak, looks good 2011-06-19 02:35 heya, can you bring some ATBEN / ATUSB 2011-06-19 02:37 rejon: i hope so :) 2011-06-19 02:38 depends on tuxbrain-in-absentia :) 2011-06-19 02:39 wolfspraul: btw, did the massive press pickup have any ripple effects at sharism so far ? 2011-06-19 02:42 rejon: they're giving you the siesta slot ! :) (for the 2nd talk) 2011-06-19 02:44 wpwrak: interestingly, not at all 2011-06-19 02:44 I've had 1 order so far 2011-06-19 02:48 it's probably because the links point in all directions, some of the more prominent ones to tuxbrain 2011-06-19 02:49 it's amazing how quick people give up - you need to hold something right in front of their mouths to sell :-) 2011-06-19 02:49 also I don't see many new suscribers on the discussion or the announce list, or new people here. oh well... 2011-06-19 02:54 I am very curious how many atben/atusb tuxbrain is selling :-) 2011-06-19 02:54 but he's MIA 2011-06-19 02:58 wpwrak, I ordered one (nanonote) 2011-06-19 03:03 freakazoid0223, that's great! 2011-06-19 03:04 wolfspraul, sure, having one solid URL is best, but this is the scatter at the moment 2011-06-19 03:04 better if can have one entry and buy buttons on it 2011-06-19 03:04 oh sure, all fine 2011-06-19 03:05 the coverage is excellent 2011-06-19 03:05 I haven't read comments carefully, but looks mostly negative to me 2011-06-19 03:06 I see two ways out of this - one is that with our tech, we just engadge in actual use cases that are interesting. 2011-06-19 03:06 the other one is that we put the focus on the software we run, rather than the hw specs 2011-06-19 03:07 but I think the moment anyone compares hw specs with the latest Android stuff, we are screwed, no matter what we do. So I'll stay away from going there. 2011-06-19 03:08 it doesn't matter whether ben-wpan is 250kbps, 2mbit/s, even 20mbit/s. THey would just say "LTE Advanced has a peak of 1gbit/sec, bla bla" :-) 2011-06-19 03:09 so have to just talk about apps and use cases instead 2011-06-19 03:10 I think ben-wpan is awesome, especially how it was created, with free tools, PCB antenna, home PCB process, etc. 2011-06-19 03:10 and even at 250kbs, there are plenty of fantastic apps that can be driven over it, obviously as of today we haven't maxed that out by far, because there is no single useful app yet 2011-06-19 03:11 the entire creation process was documented on the mailing list too, with plenty of pictures, discussions, free tools, etc. 2011-06-19 03:11 not to forget 2011-06-19 03:11 clears out a lot of FUD and builds a base for future endeavors 2011-06-19 03:14 rejon: we probably agree on this. The main sucess gauge for ben-wpan coverage is not how many more bens we sell, but how many people start using the atusb on their notebooks, and start developing the Linux stack, eventually into kernel.org 2011-06-19 03:14 yes 2011-06-19 03:14 totally 2011-06-19 03:14 esp. at this point 2011-06-19 03:14 there's a huge workload there and that's what would unlock apps later - we need it in the Linux kernel of every notebook as badly as on the Ben... 2011-06-19 03:15 yes, that is why i hoped to get more documentation down about ben wpan 2011-06-19 03:15 and what needs to be done 2011-06-19 03:15 that's why I say I am more interested to understand how many boards tuxbrain is selling now, versus me selling more Bens 2011-06-19 03:15 one big thing that has to happen on dev side is to project the goals and break down the tasks so people of varying levels of skill can get involved 2011-06-19 03:15 especially I hope (and try to help him) that he sells a lot of atusb, and kernel hackers start to support it from the notebook side 2011-06-19 03:15 this is helpful for paid ppl 2011-06-19 03:16 that's why its good lekernel is using a tracker for all the tasks 2011-06-19 03:16 I should write a grand 'call for action' on the announce list. Linux kernel hackers sought to join Wi-Fi replacement project. 2011-06-19 03:16 yes 2011-06-19 03:16 that is great 2011-06-19 03:17 what is the % of kernel hackers that are employeed now 2011-06-19 03:17 its really high like 85% 2011-06-19 03:17 oh huge, 90% or so 2011-06-19 03:17 definitely 2011-06-19 03:18 that has some bad consequences too, imo, some people are really becoming fat and lazy and just 9-5 wait-for-paycheck types 2011-06-19 03:18 but it's ok, it's mature... 2011-06-19 03:18 you can always fork, drive something crazy outside a little, then try to get it back in 2011-06-19 03:19 from reading between the lines what Werner and others say, the state of ZigBee for example, and probably also 802.15.4, in the kernel is really bad 2011-06-19 03:20 the paid guys are all on server/backend tasks, and the client/mobile crowd doesn't give a damn about kernel.org and loves implementing their stuff in little proprietary extensions, closed user-mode drivers, etc. 2011-06-19 03:20 that is my understanding at least 2011-06-19 03:20 so when I plug my atusb into my notebook, I expect: nothing 2011-06-19 03:20 :-) 2011-06-19 03:25 i emailed some kernel devs to try to get them on board 2011-06-19 03:28 wow 2011-06-19 03:28 you found kernel devs to mail :-) 2011-06-19 03:29 fat canonical employees ;) 2011-06-19 03:29 hard to find a species they are 2011-06-19 03:29 most claim to know about kernel, but even I can tell they don't have that much of a clue ;-) 2011-06-19 03:30 those who really are in business with kernel development are rarely short of tasks 2011-06-19 03:31 I faced a similar problem when it was about a proper fixed hostmode USB kernel driver 2011-06-19 03:34 again a lot of "kernel hackers" gave up on that messed up USB driver code. And I'd expect situations for wireless stack to be almost identical 2011-06-19 03:36 you probably don't need a kernel hacker short of taks to tackle, you rather need a wifi-stack hacker savvy to implement a proper kernel/mainstream compliant 802.15 stack 2011-06-19 03:36 just my uneducated 2 cents 2011-06-19 03:44 ponders about a simple MAC interface for wpan, that does nothing a simple NIC wouldn't do in hardware as well - basically filter inbound stuff for correct MAC and tag outbound stuff with own MAC (is the latter done by a NIC at all?) 2011-06-19 03:44 wpan as the wireless 10Bt thin ethernet cable 2011-06-19 03:45 can't be too hard 2011-06-19 03:50 of course you're running into "OHMY what's with ENCRYPTION" in no time :-) 2011-06-19 03:52 I never looked into 802.15 RFCs neither into the TX datasheets or atmel driver code of atusb 2011-06-19 03:53 is there any mandatory protocol defined in 802.15? Some that isn't already handled by the transceiver chip? 2011-06-19 03:55 given the usable range not being farther than I can spit, I think any over-sophisticated protocol is maybe mere overkill 2011-06-19 03:56 for a first approach at least 2011-06-19 03:58 has vivions of a 802.15->CIR adapter, to place directly next to the IR-detector of appliances 2011-06-19 03:58 visions* 2011-06-19 03:59 wpwrak: how about revamping atusb to act as a standalone wpan->CIR that only needs some 5V supply 2011-06-19 04:00 next step: a smal PCB to retrofit in place of (or parallel to) the IR_LED of remotes 2011-06-19 04:03 so you can use not only Ben but also your remote you are used to, to control that friggin TV despite there's that wooden table that doesn't let IR from remote directly to the TV a bit lower 2011-06-19 04:03 the you also can use remote to control Ben \o/ 2011-06-19 04:03 then* 2011-06-19 04:06 hmm, starting at RFC4944... 2011-06-19 04:07 probably hard to get sth about IEEE 802.15.4 2011-06-19 04:07 as usual 2011-06-19 04:08 mhm, 802.15.4 defines PHY and MAC layer 2011-06-19 04:09 perfect 2011-06-19 04:12 I gather atusb is using 2.4GHz ISM band, class B ? 2011-06-19 04:13 I.E. free of all licencing, but has to live with microwave oven on same frequency 2011-06-19 04:14 DocScrutinizer: yes, I think so. 2.4ghz 2011-06-19 04:15 just learning in Germany the 9-10kHz(SIC!) band is a ISM band - darn, never knew my walkman had a general cert for SRD ;-P 2011-06-19 04:16 even worse, depending on the music it transmits on bands not allowable, like 18kHz 2011-06-19 04:20 wolfspraul: (wiki) >>Charakteristisch für die Knoten eines IEEE-802.15.4-Netzes sind die langen Ruhephasen, wodurch ein Knoten die meiste Zeit in einem energiesparenden Betriebszustand verweilen kann. Sobald er Daten senden oder empfangen möchte, kann er in lediglich 15 ms aufwachen, anschließend die Kommunikation abwickeln und sich wieder schlafen legen. Dadurch können batteriebetriebene Netzknoten typische Laufzeiten von sechs 2011-06-19 04:20 Monaten bis zu zwei Jahren erreichen.<<  you probably want to emphasize this aspect more in your crusade for wpan :-) 2011-06-19 04:21 wonders if hise momematic home automation components are using wpan 2011-06-19 04:21 wonders if his homematic home automation components are using wpan 2011-06-19 04:21 damn 2011-06-19 04:22 the door lock for example works from battery for ~1 year or longer 2011-06-19 04:23 DocScrutinizer: yes I think that's one of the things learnt from Bluetooth, which takes several seconds to wakeup (maybe a little less now, but still far more than 802.15.4) 2011-06-19 04:24 but before hyping things too much, there's a lot of work in the stack to do first, imho 2011-06-19 04:25 wpwrak: what's atusb's best case power consumption? or maybe better what's that of atben? 2011-06-19 04:25 are we already there with months of standby operation from 2 button cells? 2011-06-19 04:29 wolfspraul: reading about 802.15.4 and what the standard defines, I see why implementations for Full Function Devices in linux still suck. 2011-06-19 04:31 esp tree topology has a bunch of duties for FFD-coordinators that are non-trivial nd way beyond what you need for a point2point data transfer 2011-06-19 04:32 (cluster tree) 2011-06-19 05:11 wow, 802.15.4 defines encryption as mandatory optional function that's handled by the mac layer aka the wpan chip 2011-06-19 05:11 CCM and AES 2011-06-19 05:12 key management is up to the higher protocol layers of course 2011-06-19 05:15 mhm, now I think I know what's 6lowpan and what's 802.15.4 2011-06-19 05:16 DocScrutinizer: (power consumption) difficult to tell. neiher atusb nor atben are designed for low duty cycles. (= turn off everything until you know it's time to listen.) in theory, they could go quite low, but the rest of the system will be comparably power-hungry anyway. 2011-06-19 05:16 wpwrak: aiui for now atben does no 6lowpan at all? just 802.15.4? 2011-06-19 05:17 DocScrutinizer: correct 2011-06-19 05:17 wpwrak: (power) I'm thinking about my 802.15.4->CIR adapter and the 5V PSU you maybe can omit 2011-06-19 05:18 wpwrak: there's a whole lot of nice applications for that hw that's <<6lowpan complexity 2011-06-19 05:19 thinking home automation for example 2011-06-19 05:19 wolfspraul: (stack in bad shape) yes. something interesting happened 2-3 days ago, though: the original leader of the linux-zigbee project woke up. seems that he's been able to get the go ahead for some work. so things may improve. 2011-06-19 05:20 I could see a market for a whole range of nice DIY sensors and actors bat-powered and based on 802.15.4 2011-06-19 05:20 DocScrutinizer: not sure 6lowpan complexity is so bad. the coordinator is a bit of a pain, but the rest is comparably simple. 2011-06-19 05:21 well, the whole coordinator thing is still mainly 802.145.4, no? 2011-06-19 05:21 DocScrutinizer: (comparably simple) in the sense that, once it's implemented, you don't care. of course, you have to implement it once or a few times first :) 2011-06-19 05:21 yes 2011-06-19 05:22 aiui ther coordinator should partially be integrated into the hw. Not clear about that yet 2011-06-19 05:23 naw, coordinator can be in sw 2011-06-19 05:23 sending and sensing baecons... 2011-06-19 05:23 there are a number of low-level functions, like acks and retransmissions that should be in hw or close to it, though 2011-06-19 05:23 sending ACKs clearly is hw domain 2011-06-19 05:23 (beacons) a classical RT task ;-) 2011-06-19 05:23 spec says so 2011-06-19 05:24 (beacons) besides, you don't even need them 2011-06-19 05:24 siperframes also sounds like RT, like hw 2011-06-19 05:24 super* 2011-06-19 05:24 for slotted you need them 2011-06-19 05:25 but yeah, who wants slotted 2011-06-19 05:25 correct. but do you really need slotted ? :) 2011-06-19 05:25 :-) 2011-06-19 05:25 aiui slotted is the mezhod of choice to power down the "clients" 2011-06-19 05:26 no idea how much power the RX eats for always-on 2011-06-19 05:27 otoh saving power at one end at the expense of sending(!) beacons at the other end seems like a tradeoff not always desirable 2011-06-19 05:27 slotted is mainly about QoS. if you really want to be low-power, you'll have a much lower duty cycle 2011-06-19 05:27 wonders how those homematic devices tackle the problem 2011-06-19 05:28 I guess they just send like mad, until some ack comes in 2011-06-19 05:28 and have a duty cycle of sth like 100/1 for standby 2011-06-19 05:29 or much much lower 2011-06-19 05:29 could that atusb controller+transceiver couple do such a thing? 2011-06-19 05:30 or could go low duty cycle. but then it' 2011-06-19 05:31 s usb, which isn;t the most power-saving technology 2011-06-19 05:31 envisions an atusb with 2 or 3 button cells mod, plus 2 wires running to arbitrary sensors/actors 2011-06-19 05:31 nah, I'm thinking standalone 2011-06-19 05:31 also, you can't shut down the transceiver without also shutting down the MCU, and usb with it 2011-06-19 05:31 using USB just for config 2011-06-19 05:32 you'll get a baseline consumption of about 20 mW 2011-06-19 05:32 take a atusb, add some batery and e.g. a IR-LED 2011-06-19 05:32 that's definitely way too much 2011-06-19 05:33 can't the atmel suspend for seconds or hours? 2011-06-19 05:33 can't the transceiver power down at all? 2011-06-19 05:33 if you drop usb, then you could go lower. e.g., atusb can use an internal oscillator for the mcu, which would decouple it from the transceiver. but you lose usb that way. 2011-06-19 05:34 i haven't experimented with that, though. get one and try ;-) 2011-06-19 05:34 I'm ok with losing USB most of the time 2011-06-19 05:34 yeah, considering that. But honestly... too expensive for my wallet atm 2011-06-19 05:35 if you think it's expensive, you may want to consider that each board is de facto subsidized with something like USD 100-200 from me ;-) 2011-06-19 05:36 darn, Ben as the logger in a network of wireless sensors, I have quite some requests for such things 2011-06-19 05:36 wpwrak: it's too expensive for my purse, not for my mind 2011-06-19 05:37 a ben would make a very nice controller for things, indeed. kind of a super-arduino :) 2011-06-19 05:41 wpwrak: now add to that controller a complete set of (basically 2 different, or even just one) universal sensor/actor wireless dongles, operating from battery. Now if Ben had USB hostmode to configure them directly at location without additional gear... 2011-06-19 05:42 well, you probably get away with configuring the whole set at hoem with your PC 2011-06-19 05:44 then have the right firmware in the dongles to e.g read out temperature or humidity sensors... I could've sold that to an architect like 1 year ago, to monitor old houses' roofs 2011-06-19 05:44 use reed contact instead NTC and you get nice home automation detectors for open windows/doors/whatnot 2011-06-19 05:45 control lights etc with the actor dongle 2011-06-19 05:45 Ben for central controler displaying status and UI 2011-06-19 05:46 all basing on just one PCB basically 2011-06-19 05:46 sure. domotics are one of the areas 802.15.4 seems quite suitable for. 2011-06-19 05:46 indeed 2011-06-19 05:47 we could sell Bens to people who don't even know what's a CPU ;-) 2011-06-19 05:47 ben+atben is a bit of a hack, though. you'd want a more integrated solution. 2011-06-19 05:47 yeah, hoping for next-gen-Ben, with atben integrated, with hostmode USB... 2011-06-19 05:48 maybe we find even Logitech is using 802.15.4 for their proprietary wireless crap, and you can interface mice and kbds to NN directly ;-) 2011-06-19 05:49 glares at the sealed Logitech dongle 2011-06-19 05:49 802.15.4 would certainly fit in that area, yes 2011-06-19 05:50 but it happens I have a disassembled MX revolution here ;-) 2011-06-19 05:55 seems TX chip is on the bottom side of PCB, need to desolder it to get there 2011-06-19 05:59 we should ask wolfgang if next nano could get a housing that can get ruggedized by user. Like adding some plastic foil on top of kbd, sealing the case with silicon, dunno what 2011-06-19 06:00 I guess there's quite a bit that can be done by merely keeping such things in mind 2011-06-19 06:00 maybe even ship matchin rubber plugs for the holes of receptacles, etc 2011-06-19 06:03 IP65 or even IP67 for sure is a nice point on the list of selling arguments 2011-06-19 06:04 even a "can reach IP55 when user does the needed mods" is better than nothing 2011-06-19 06:11 ooh, and add some mounting holes, to mount the whole thing to switchboards etc 2011-06-19 06:25 so far this is my favourite for such tasks: http://cgi.ebay.de/Nokia-N810-PDA-Web-Pad-/290578946579?pt=PDAs&hash=item43a7dada13 2011-06-19 06:26 you can't possibly get more for the money 2011-06-19 06:27 even considering it for a replacement for my lightswitches ;-) 2011-06-19 06:28 for sure a nice doorbell/intercom, incl cam and msgboard for the postman 2011-06-19 09:17 wolfspraul: gave the servers an upgrade since the last slashdotting?  didn't see much additional lag since yesterday :) 2011-06-19 09:24 Werner helped tweak some good values too 2011-06-19 09:24 plus some links may have pointed to Werner's static content on downloads 2011-06-19 09:28 btw the google trends shows nanonote-related traffic increasing recently (latest slashdot not yet included i guess). 2011-06-19 09:28 so even if most commenters laugh at us, it might have been worth getting out the message 2011-06-19 09:28 https://www.google.com/trends?q=nanonote&ctab=0&geo=all&date=ytd&sort=0 2011-06-19 09:40 fortunately (for me at least), it seems they have a lot less grip on things to laugh at about milkymist :-) 2011-06-19 09:42 there were some harsh comments on the slashdot article as well, but nothing that could not be easily answered to 2011-06-19 09:42 lekernel: lucky for you :) 2011-06-19 09:42 lekernel: wait for the second story on milkymist :) 2011-06-19 09:44 right now I'm waiting for the run3 devices to be produced, it doesn't make sense to advertise something we'll have difficulty shipping 2011-06-19 09:45 I have a 6-page article planned for publication in Elektor in 10 days, though. 2011-06-19 09:47 will be in kiosks all summer 2011-06-19 09:52 lekernel: first they laugh about you, ... ;-) 2011-06-19 09:53 oh, in fact it's already out http://www.elektor.fr/magazines/2011/juillet-047-aout/milkymist-soc.1854586.lynkx 2011-06-19 09:53 wpwrak, mh? didn't spot any personal attacks in the comments 2011-06-19 09:54 i'm not too worried about the comments. there are basically three groups: 1) the usual nay-sayers, 2) valid criticism (although not always expressed nicely), and 3) approval. 2011-06-19 09:55 there isn't much you can do about 1). so the masses won't camp outside of tuxbrain's shop before launch day. fine. we can live with that for a while. we always knew that this was a compromise, so 2) have a point. again, little we can do except provide a few clarifications. 2011-06-19 09:56 of course, 3) are the most likely to actually be useful for us, e.g., by buying something or even by contributing 2011-06-19 09:57 lekernel: (personal attacks) well, you or your product :) 2011-06-19 09:58 cultural graveyard 2011-06-19 09:58 that's what we are dealing with in many cases 2011-06-19 09:59 need to step out entirely, be positive, point to a good future 2011-06-19 09:59 lekernel: july/august. hah, in the one issue with 100 circuits ? didn't remember they even has space for regular articles there :) but very good. a real article is so much better than just a brief newsticker notice. 2011-06-19 09:59 wpwrak, yeah, it used to be a big small circuit dump. but they changed this. 2011-06-19 09:59 rejon: thanks jon :-) for the cultural graveyard, totally accurate imo 2011-06-19 10:01 kyak: the Ctrl+N key problem in ASE seems to be caused by my allegro keyboard driver "fixes" 2011-06-19 10:02 what's a "cultural graveyard"?  sounds like a description of the US society as a whole. 2011-06-19 10:02 wolfspraul: yeah, people see it and realize there's someone (individual or group) who can do more than they can. they basically have four choices: a) decide it's not relevant to them and ignore it. that's for the confident type. b) try to benefit from it. that's for the efficient type. c) try to get even by learning from it. that's for the competitive and smart type. d) try to get even by tearing it down. that's for the competitive and 2011-06-19 10:02 stupid type. the more stupid you are, the more often you have a chance to feel you'r in a competition and you're losing. it all makes sense :-) 2011-06-19 10:03 has anybody heard of this Music Hack Day http://bcn.musichackday.org/2011/ 2011-06-19 10:03 lekernel: i kinda liked the small circuit dump. weeks of gold mining ;-) back then, i didn't really understand all those things, so very little came out of reading elektor for some years. but maybe it helped to shape some neural pathways :) 2011-06-19 10:04 what's that "cultural graveyard" theory? 2011-06-19 10:04 we just missed the one in Barcelona (for milkymist), but if it's good i'm sure there will be another one... 2011-06-19 10:04 wolfspraul, I have, remotely 2011-06-19 10:04 lekernel: slashdot = cultural graveyard 2011-06-19 10:04 :-) 2011-06-19 10:05 somehow the positive vibes are gone there, I just cannot feel it anymore 2011-06-19 10:05 it's just endless bickering, bitterness 2011-06-19 10:06 mh, yeah, I had the same impression reading the nanonote (and to a lesser extent milkymist) comments 2011-06-19 10:06 if you shutdown the domain, someone would turn on the lights in that lost cinema with the movie on infinite loop, people would have to step out into daylight and rediscover their lives... 2011-06-19 10:06 still it generated a lot of traffic, reposts, and some sales 2011-06-19 10:07 sure, I don't know a better alternative now 2011-06-19 10:07 dvdk: btw, i'm using the latest liballegro 2011-06-19 10:07 how does this lxer.com function? never heard about it before... 2011-06-19 10:07 there might be ycombinator 2011-06-19 10:08 that's a very strange thing 2011-06-19 10:08 they brought us scribd, but apart from that I have nothing against them (yet) 2011-06-19 10:08 when I have something on ycombinator, I get _TONS_ of traffic, but _ZERO_ really _ZERO_ sales, subscriptions, emails, anything human 2011-06-19 10:08 it looks like a botnet :-) 2011-06-19 10:09 maybe it is? to give the impression they are bigger than one might think? :-) 2011-06-19 10:09 kyak: yeah that's the problem :) 2011-06-19 10:09 ycombinator is like slashdot done right.   2011-06-19 10:10 comment quality is much, much higher 2011-06-19 10:10 dvdk: yes, but amazingly, the traffic/human ratio is fishy. They are doing some strange stuff I think, technically. 2011-06-19 10:10 maybe necessary to stand out in the junk farming nowadays, don't know. 2011-06-19 10:10 ah sorry "content farming" 2011-06-19 10:11 look at topics like P=NP proof, where almost every comment on /. repeated misconceptions and basic problems at comprehending P=NP, while ycombinator had a very in-depth discussion 2011-06-19 10:11 comprehening :-) that feeds into Jon's cultural graveyard theory... 2011-06-19 10:11 nah but anyway, every individual that shows up and is interested in anything is welcome, right? 2011-06-19 10:12 wherever they come from, even if a lot of their friends are a little bit on the ranting side :-) 2011-06-19 10:12 reminds me of http://thefastertimes.com/news/2011/06/16/aol-hell-an-aol-content-slave-speaks-out/ I read yesterday 2011-06-19 10:12 i don't say that slashdot is a lost case; people like us are reading it.  we may not be the majority, but still more "good" audience on /. than all other sites combined 2011-06-19 10:12 sure it's great to be covered there, but for the future hopefully something better emerges 2011-06-19 10:13 something friendlier, more thoughtful, more positive 2011-06-19 10:13 where again is the website campaigning for stopping to read slashdot?  can't find it.  was a fun read + many links to better news sites 2011-06-19 10:13 more fun too maybe 2011-06-19 10:13 lol, there's a campaign against slashdot ?! 2011-06-19 10:13 lekernel: should that surprise us? :) 2011-06-19 10:15 wolfspraul: btw, here's my abstract for the upcoming presentation at FISL: http://pastebin.com/dTbAzDmn 2011-06-19 10:16 wolfspraul: and there's my bio with an implied (short) mission statement of qi-hw at the end: http://pastebin.com/mbbudceg 2011-06-19 10:17 "I want to be your friend, I want to guard your dreams and visions", that's what I'm missing at /. 2011-06-19 10:18 wolfspraul: who needs friends and visions if you can have beer and wrestling ? ;-) 2011-06-19 10:20 I'm just becoming sensitive to these things living in China. 2011-06-19 10:20 I don't need more crap flying at me when I read /. 2011-06-19 10:21 :-) 2011-06-19 10:21 ok, elektor article is cool 2011-06-19 10:21 now, fisl abstract 2011-06-19 10:21 maybe they're going to translate it 2011-06-19 10:21 will ask a bit later 2011-06-19 10:22 what's fisl? 2011-06-19 10:22 speaking of conferences i'll be at okcon next week http://okcon.org/2011/programme/open-source-hardware-and-milkymist 2011-06-19 10:22 lekernel: free sw conference in brazil, june 29-july 2 2011-06-19 10:22 and chaos camp 2011-06-19 10:23 maybe even hacknight.se, though i'd go there mostly for fun and not milkymist promotion... but who knows 2011-06-19 10:23 wpwrak: nice. "review the objectives and constraints", I think 'the' can be removed to "review objectives and constraints" 2011-06-19 10:24 but not 100% sure, need to ask a native speaker 2011-06-19 10:24 who's going to brazil? 2011-06-19 10:24 wolfspraul: yeha, that sounds even a little better. well, i've already sent it :) 2011-06-19 10:25 lekernel: I have 2 questions about the tv-out cable. one is, if we do get one, should we have that ddc short/loop? is that what you prefer? the other one - will the tv-out and s-video work in parallel? can you connect 2 targets then? 2011-06-19 10:25 lekernel: rejon, me. methril, you'll be there too, right ? (of course, technically not "going to" brazil :) 2011-06-19 10:26 wolfspraul, the s-video and cvbs can work in parallel yes 2011-06-19 10:26 but I have no s-video cable to test it atm... will get one someday 2011-06-19 10:26 ddc loop is nice to have 2011-06-19 10:27 huh? the one from xiangfu has both rca and s-video, no? 2011-06-19 10:27 yes, but I need another cable to go from the s-video plug on the cable to the s-video plug on my TV 2011-06-19 10:27 ah got it 2011-06-19 10:27 though I might just as well stuff the plugs with bits of wire 2011-06-19 10:29 anyway, all this isn't a priority. the video signal generator in milkymist and its software drivers would need a major overhaul to support cvbs and s-video 2011-06-19 10:29 I will implement this at the same time as I implement HD rendering 2011-06-19 10:30 and maybe HDMI, since I'll have my mind deep into verilog and video signals 2011-06-19 10:30 [commit] David Kühling: liballegro: change the keybord driver fix to tread RCONTROL as before (as CTRL) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/026792a 2011-06-19 10:30 so, not anytime soon 2011-06-19 10:31 i'll get that product with vga output only done right in the first time 2011-06-19 10:31 definitely, all fine 2011-06-19 10:31 kyak: change liballegro keyboard driver once again.  can test whether it is better now? 2011-06-19 10:31 I just need my eyes on that cable in case you suddenly tell me "include one" :-) 2011-06-19 10:32 then I realized recently with supporting 2 targets, we might have an easy way to record performances 2011-06-19 10:32 kyak: the ellipse tool stuff: looks like we need to filter F1-F3 out of the message queue also 2011-06-19 10:33 I need to look into vga grabbers... 2011-06-19 10:33 yeah, though CVBS and S-Video will always have a reduced quality compared to VGA 2011-06-19 10:33 yes but right now we basically have no way at all to record performances 2011-06-19 10:33 sure, that's already better than filming the screen :) 2011-06-19 10:34 yes but you are telling me to not expect this to work anytime soon, so I'll look into vga grabbers... 2011-06-19 10:34 I can have access to a VGA grabber and small video studio, I'm just waiting for the box to arrive so I can shoot a nice unboxing video 2011-06-19 10:37 hopefully the web update will also be done at that time, so I can also demonstrate update and patch pool 2011-06-19 10:37 [commit] David Kühling: ase: another keymouse fix: keep F1-F3 mouse-buttons from causing key events. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/cd0c7ce 2011-06-19 10:37 kyak: ok, the toolbox problem is fixed as well (latest ASE) 2011-06-19 11:18 You're being talked about: http://groups.google.com/group/hackerspacesg/msg/ae160842686e8af7 2011-06-19 11:19 dvdk: rebuilding it now 2011-06-19 11:23 kyak: still crashing on save. it gets sigabort don't know where this comes from (currently debbugging with gdb) 2011-06-19 11:31 dvdk: elipse and ctlr issues seem to be solved, thanks :) 2011-06-19 11:43 kyak: doesn't really help if you cannot save your creations :) 2011-06-19 11:43 [commit] Werner Almesberger: BOOKSHELF: added RFC4944 (6LoWPAN) as "rfc4944" and "6lowpan" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/2966470 2011-06-19 11:43 [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/dirtpan/dirtpan.c: cleaned up embarrassing explanation of control byte http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e77658f 2011-06-19 11:46 dvdk: yeah, that's major :) 2011-06-19 11:49 dvdk: what is /usr/bin/skater installed by liballegro-demo? I can't start it, it says "Error: Unable to find a suitable graphics driver" 2011-06-19 11:49 /usr/bin/shooter starts fine, however 2011-06-19 11:49 yeah: skater needs 640x480 2011-06-19 11:50 hm, okay 2011-06-19 11:50 need to hack it to rescale :) 2011-06-19 11:50 oh, btw 2011-06-19 11:51 here's what i found: http://victornils.net/tetris/ 2011-06-19 11:51 another text-mode tetris, that can be built with allegro 2011-06-19 11:51 i think i'll try porting that 2011-06-19 11:53 kyak: check netris :) 2011-06-19 11:53 it allows to play over network 2011-06-19 11:54 nice to play on multiple bens over atben's :) 2011-06-19 11:54 heh, good idea :) 2011-06-19 11:54 may be killer app, hehe :) 2011-06-19 11:55 we already have at least two tetrises: the one from bsd-games and another is gottet (qt-based). None of them have network support, though :) 2011-06-19 11:58 ah, this oen supports 2P game using unix domain sockets 2011-06-19 11:58 i guess it is almost equal to networking support 2011-06-19 11:59 the developer says "But 1.0 should have music and sound. Original music, not the Russian tune." 2011-06-19 11:59 so he really thinks that the "original" music is the one from NES? 2011-06-19 12:06 kyak: I meant netris.org btw 2011-06-19 12:06 ftp://ftp.netris.org/pub/netris/ 2011-06-19 12:09 Jay7: wow. ftp. i thought grave robbery as a hobby had died with schliemann :) 2011-06-19 12:09 wpwrak: yeah.. ftp is like zombie 2011-06-19 12:09 sometimes it happens.. 2011-06-19 12:10 I'll setup ftp-server soon for one russian business app.. 2011-06-19 12:10 because they are using ftp for database uploading 2011-06-19 12:11 seems they are lost in 90'th.. 2011-06-19 12:12 wow. ftp as a database interface. all of a sudden, grocery lists in git don't sound strange anymore. 2011-06-19 12:18 wpwrak: it's wonderful world of enterprise application.. 2011-06-19 12:19 applications 2011-06-19 12:32 kyak: there's also openinvaders 2011-06-19 12:48 could be a stack overflow.  is it possible to increase available stack size on nn? 2011-06-19 12:49 aarrggh, maybe that's a pthread thread, these have lower amounts of stack space than the main process? 2011-06-19 12:49 info thre 2011-06-19 12:49 (oops, thought i was in gdb command window) 2011-06-19 12:52 no stack size is not the problem... 2011-06-19 12:57 hm, seems that vitetris can only use X11 extension of allegro (tries to include xalleg.h, which is not available) 2011-06-19 12:58 if ncurses UI won't fit well in 320x240, might as well give up 2011-06-19 12:59 kyak: i don't knw of x11 extensions.  maybe it used the early x-win port of aallegro that was later reintegrated? 2011-06-19 13:00 kyak: do you know of any problems in openwrt-trunk wrt C++ exception handling?   2011-06-19 13:00 i cannot get a clean backtrace of ase, but dumping the stack looks like an exception was thrown 2011-06-19 13:00 (it jumped to _ZNSsD1Ev@plt) 2011-06-19 13:01 sorry, can't help you with that 2011-06-19 13:02 but if qt works, I guess it cannot be that bad (but qt does not use exceptions) 2011-06-19 13:02 ? 2011-06-19 13:02 i can tell that qt works 2011-06-19 13:26 [commit] kyak: vitetris: terminal-based Tetris clone http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c8ada0d 2011-06-19 17:19 wpwrak something tht could drive atusb sales would be a standalone 802.15 gadget that has various i/o for sensors including i2c, plus gpio and a few analog pins plus the radio 2011-06-19 17:19 Ornotermrd long time no see 2011-06-19 17:19 wpwrak thanks! 2011-06-19 17:19 rjeffries: yup, you could use either the MCU from atusb, or make a non-USB device 2011-06-19 17:20 isnt there a atrf based arduino board? 2011-06-19 17:20 rjeffries: if you use the same MCU, you could even reuse the same firmware 2011-06-19 17:20 roh that is worth investigating 2011-06-19 17:20 roh: i think so, yes 2011-06-19 17:20 wpwrak: flash a fw which speaks serial on the usb pins of atusb ;) 2011-06-19 17:21 wpwrak in your atusb there were io pins you did not expose correct? 2011-06-19 17:21 roh: atusb exposes a few GPIOs already. so .... :) 2011-06-19 17:21 rjeffries: there are the ones used for ICSP. gives you three general-purpuse GPIOs plus power 2011-06-19 17:21 rjeffries: admittedly not a lot 2011-06-19 17:21 wpwrak: welll... one could also use the atmega.. sure.. 2011-06-19 17:22 roh: dfu is rather nice to have around ;-) 2011-06-19 17:22 one really wants/needs i2c as many sensors support that 2011-06-19 17:23 dfu is lightyears behind arduino bootloaders when it comes to practicality ;) 2011-06-19 17:23 no harm intended. 2011-06-19 17:24 roh: what's impractical about  dfu-util -D stuff  ? 2011-06-19 17:24 wpwrak: it doesnt work from the users already-known devel environment. 2011-06-19 17:24 rjeffries: alas, no hw I2C on that chip. but you could write a bit-banging master, why not 2011-06-19 17:25 roh: duuuh :) 2011-06-19 17:25 wpwrak: and it works via serial too. makes for less complicated and expensive hw 2011-06-19 17:25 roh: make that Fwhatever run dfu-util instead of whatever it is now. that can't be so hard :) 2011-06-19 17:26 wpwrak: that only works as long as you leave the pins usb 2011-06-19 17:27 roh: they have no other use :) 2011-06-19 17:27 wpwrak: well.. its 2 pins on a connector. you could speak the i2c there. 2011-06-19 17:28 roh: i'd rather use the big fat test points right next to it. remember, 3 gpios are available from icsp 2011-06-19 17:29 roh: and that's if you can't be bothered to make your own board variant 2011-06-19 17:29 roh: for lots of i/os, you'd of course want to do that. bring them out on headers, etc. 2011-06-19 17:35 levrrasging astusb even if more expensive (doh) has advantage that it exists and is Known To Work. maybe lashing it together with some off the shelf Arduino talking serial between atben and Arduino would be a kludgy but ok way to start, no hardwra eneed be developed 2011-06-19 17:41 rjeffries: if all you want is I2C, you could just hack a bit-banging I2C driver for atusb, then attach your sensor(s) to the test points. they have 0.1 in spacing, so you could even drill holes and use a header 2011-06-19 17:42 rjeffries: (careful with the ground plane at the bottom, though) 2011-06-19 17:42 err no, sorry. there are traces underneath. no drilling. 2011-06-19 17:43 but you could solder the header sideways. that's even easier. 2011-06-19 17:44 what puzzles me is how atusb as a standalone will have protocol smarts to talk to atusb or atben over 802.15.4 + whatever higher level protocol 2011-06-19 17:45 rjeffries: you'd have to write that too, of course :) 2011-06-19 17:45 adding i2c somehow to Ben is looking better and better. ;) 2011-06-19 17:47 rjeffries: there's even a kernel driver that does this. but it would be easy enough to do in user space as well. for the physical interface, use UBB 2011-06-19 17:48 (of course, you can't have UBB and atben at the same time) 2011-06-19 17:49 but.... 8:10 slot will be occupied by the atben rf module. I did not make my intention/goal clear: want a REMOTE, wireless connection o a platform that supports i2c sensors (and ideally also supports other sensors ) 2011-06-19 17:53 rjeffries: your choices: 1) use atusb (mainly an execise in writing software), 2) make your own atusb variant (hint: the design files are open for a reason ;-), 3) get something like http://www.logos-electro.com/zigduino/ 2011-06-19 17:53 (or some other sufficiently open ieee 802.15.4 board) 2011-06-19 17:55 speaking of domotics: http://www.nxp.com/campaigns/greenchip/pages/smartlighting.php 2011-06-19 17:55 NXP use IEEE 802.15.4. it's coming :) 2011-06-19 17:56 this is pretty good news: http://www.logos-electro.com/blog/2011/6/3/a-new-zigduino-application.html 2011-06-19 17:57 Contiki on Zigduino (which is FINALY available 2011-06-19 17:58 Zigduino at $70 could be a decent choice for remote sensor node reachable by 802.15.4 and (eventually) 6Lowpan) from ben or atusb. 2011-06-19 17:58 sure. no need to reinvent the wheel :) 2011-06-19 17:59 if you want simpler and cheaper, tweak an atusb 2011-06-19 18:00 the good thing about open standards is that you can shop around. no need to get everything from a single source :) 2011-06-19 18:18 wpwrak, yes, def. confirmed will be at FISL 2011-06-19 18:18 presenting mm1 2011-06-19 18:19 rejon: checking the schedule ... 2011-06-19 18:20 ah, the famous siesta slot :) 2011-06-19 18:20 and the same for me :) 2011-06-19 18:23 mine's on thurday. very good. 2nd day, so if there's a problem with the flight, i have some buffer. and early, so i can go drinking ;-) 2011-06-19 18:25 hahahaha wpwrak 2011-06-19 18:25 crap, not sure i'm ready 2011-06-19 18:26 NXP \o/ 2011-06-19 18:50 [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/atusb.c: added missing standard #includes http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9746205 2011-06-19 18:50 [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/: split non-SPI code from atusb.c in preparation for SPI-based driver http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/13f031b 2011-06-19 18:50 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/: new mechanism for SPI commands (more general than reg/buf requests) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9a0184c 2011-06-19 18:50 [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib: added USB-SPI driver for ATUSB http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a37bba8 2011-06-19 18:55 cool site search for parts http://octopart.com/ 2011-06-19 18:57 rjeffries: so-so. quite often, it just leads you astray. also, doesn't always things that are on sites it "knows about" 2011-06-19 18:57 rjeffries: but yes, if desperate, that's one place to try 2011-06-19 19:00 larsc: may i pick you brain for a moment ? there is a driver that does request_irq(...). now, in my case, i would generate this interrupt from things i get from USB. as far as i know, there's no platform-independent mechanism for assigning a "fake" interrupt number and then invoking that fake interrupt, correct ? 2011-06-19 19:12 http://www.milkymist.org/leaflets/run3_leaflet.pdf 2011-06-19 19:16 http://www.opennet.ru/opennews/art.shtml?num=30907 2011-06-19 19:16 article about ben wpan in russian 2011-06-19 19:16 should be fixed a bit 2011-06-19 19:21 well.. comments are different 2011-06-19 19:21 but there are more good comments 2011-06-19 20:29 Jay7: google translate does funny things with that text ;-) "WARNING!  Piece of iron, which is stuck in MicroSD does not work with normal MicroSD." ;-)) 2011-06-19 20:29 heh 2011-06-19 20:31 hehe 2011-06-19 20:31 that is my comment 2011-06-19 20:32 because they are says this is plain microsd module 2011-06-19 20:32 Jay7: (your comment) yeah, it has the "insider" tone ;-) 2011-06-19 20:32 http://www.online-translator.com/Default.aspx?prmtlang=en 2011-06-19 20:32 check this one :) 2011-06-19 20:34 http://www.online-translator.com/Default.aspx/Site 2011-06-19 20:34 this even 2011-06-19 20:35 ah well.. they are changed text in main article 2011-06-19 20:35 nice 2011-06-19 20:35 hehe.. same "The piece of iron" 2011-06-19 20:36 ah.. that was really my slang :)) 2011-06-19 20:36 and this is right translation :)) 2011-06-19 21:03 wpwrak: irq_chip is what your are looking for i guess 2011-06-19 21:08 lekernel: hmm not sure ... but create_irq looks promising 2011-06-19 21:09 create_irq? 2011-06-19 21:09 what do you want to do? 2011-06-19 21:09 have an irq number an trigger it? 2011-06-19 21:09 and 2011-06-19 21:10 yes 2011-06-19 21:10 irq_chip is what you want 2011-06-19 21:10 the driver i want to use expects to be given an irq number 2011-06-19 21:11 then it will request_irq it 2011-06-19 21:11 take a look for example at the jz4740_adc driver in drivers/mfd 2011-06-19 21:15 hmm ... platform_get_irq 2011-06-19 21:16 tags "real kernel hacker" label to larsc :-) 2011-06-19 21:17 larsc: I think I now know how to make the cpufreq driver clean and safe 2011-06-19 21:17 wpwrak: platform_get_irq is for passing the irq number to the device which it passes to request_irq 2011-06-19 21:17 mth: nice :) 2011-06-19 21:17 I implemented it for MMC, still a lot of other devices (USB, LCD etc) to be done 2011-06-19 21:18 ouch, again all based on CPU clock? 2011-06-19 21:18 nasty hw 2011-06-19 21:18 DocScrutinizer: it's based on the same PLL 2011-06-19 21:18 :nod: 2011-06-19 21:19 you can vary the CPU speed independently, but dividers are integer 2011-06-19 21:19 been a real PITA for FR S3C2442 2011-06-19 21:19 and most people on the Dingoo want to be able to overclock in very small increments 2011-06-19 21:20 the most annoying part is to avoid glitches on all the erial IF, when switching CPU clock 2011-06-19 21:20 as you can't witch clock and dividers atomically 2011-06-19 21:20 switch* 2011-06-19 21:20 I just claim the entire MMC host to ensure it's not doing I/O while the PLL is reconfigured 2011-06-19 21:20 :nod: 2011-06-19 21:21 hope you don't find inbound transmissions garbled 2011-06-19 21:21 the jz4740 can luckly change dividers and the pll atomically 2011-06-19 21:21 oh, nice 2011-06-19 21:21 some dividers can be changed atomically, but not all of them 2011-06-19 21:22 ah 2011-06-19 21:22 and the bit for toggling the atomic dividers is the one that caused problems for MMC 2011-06-19 21:22 I have to explicitly disable that bit after the PLL change 2011-06-19 21:24 by the way, even for the ones that can be changed atomically, the docs still instruct you to gate the clock during the PLL change 2011-06-19 21:24 larsc: now, my device is a usb dongle ... let's see if we have an example for some platform device registration ... here, one, misc/ftdi-elan.c ... hmm, lovely code. weaponized newlines :( 2011-06-19 21:32 larsc: ok, i think i have an idea how to proceed. thanks a lot ! 2011-06-19 21:33 larsc: by the way, please don't forget to cherry pick the UDC fix 2011-06-19 21:33 into jz-2.6.39 2011-06-19 21:54 mth: so gating the clock sounds like inbound data gets garbled inevitably 2011-06-19 21:55 you'd need to suspend all inbound data paths prior to doing that clock meddling 2011-06-19 21:55 by whatever means 2011-06-19 21:55 yes, and it's going to be different for every peripheral driver 2011-06-19 21:56 or postpone clock switching until all IO finished and it's guaranteed that it doesn't resume 2011-06-19 21:56 mth: indeed, a PITA 2011-06-19 21:56 an easier but less elegant approach would be to suspend the system and set a new PLL on resume 2011-06-19 21:57 hey :-D 2011-06-19 21:57 that's what I call a brilliant hack :-) 2011-06-19 21:58 I think it was Ayla who originally mentioned that idea 2011-06-19 21:58 of course clumsy 2011-06-19 21:58 but anyway, should at least work 2011-06-19 21:58 it's always good to have a plan B 2011-06-19 21:58 hehe 2011-06-19 21:58 it's even better if you don't have to use it :) 2011-06-19 21:58 yup 2011-06-19 21:59 or just temporaraily use it, as a stepstone 2011-06-19 21:59 iirc some brave guy fixed that annoying mess for s3c2442 in the end 2011-06-19 22:00 after zillions of kernel locks and other 'nice' effects that were incredibly hard to debug 2011-06-19 22:01 probably it's not completely debugged and evaluated yet today 2011-06-19 22:01 as it's almost impossible to create a proper testbed for all the races you may face 2011-06-19 22:02 you can't really test parallel code 2011-06-19 22:02 well, you can test and see it fail, but if it passes you still know very little 2011-06-19 22:02 I had hoped for static code analysis to help out here, but it's not happening yet 2011-06-19 22:02 I'm not sure about the current sttae of things, wouldn't be surprised to find cpufreq/governour not yet used on a larger basis at all, in SHR 2011-06-19 22:03 mth: exactly 2011-06-19 22:03 well, static code analysis as I know it is a lot of work :-) 2011-06-19 22:04 and no fun for most people 2011-06-19 22:04 I know, I've done formal proofs of 3 pages for a 10-line parallel program 2011-06-19 22:05 that's why I was hoping it would be (semi)automated by now 2011-06-19 22:05 yup, and for a system consisting of virtually an arbitrary number of peripherals it's almost  impossible 2011-06-19 22:06 you just need 3..10 coders developing concurrently, the comparing their code and discuss the differences 2011-06-19 22:07 my solution was to move to async communication wherever possible 2011-06-19 22:07 but the Linux kernel is not built that way 2011-06-19 22:07 sure, but that's hard 2011-06-19 22:07 for networking I use Twisted nowadays 2011-06-19 22:08 and in our MSX emulator we handle all peripherals by posting events on the main thread and handling them there 2011-06-19 22:08 mth: twisted ? 2011-06-19 22:08 thinking of a stupid simple tty interface, you need to consider latencies in periph, sw/hw handshake, whatnot 2011-06-19 22:08 wpwrak: async framework for Python 2011-06-19 22:08 ah :) 2011-06-19 22:08 it has loads of modules for various protocols 2011-06-19 22:09 and the interfaces are usually well designed 2011-06-19 22:09 mth: for verification, the spin model checker can be quite useful 2011-06-19 22:09 ? 2011-06-19 22:09 mth: and Promela beats writing pages of formal proofs ;-) 2011-06-19 22:09 I only know PROMEA 2011-06-19 22:09 wpwrak: thanks, I'll do some reading about those 2011-06-19 22:10 programmable multiple Eingabe/Ausgabe 2011-06-19 22:10 a siemens serial card for sicomp M-series 2011-06-19 22:10 DocScrutinizer: you write a model in Promela (a C-like language), then the model checker can do state space explorations and test certain properties. e.g., that your protocol doesn't spend infinite time without making progress or that you 2011-06-19 22:11 're always able to handle the respective next message 2011-06-19 22:11 mhm 2011-06-19 22:11 sounds nice 2011-06-19 22:11 DocScrutinizer: there are also some fancier things you can do with it. but the basics already give you a good idea of how your protocol really works. 2011-06-19 22:11 DocScrutinizer: often, you actually find the bugs while making the model ;-) 2011-06-19 22:12 I'd expect the bugs sneaking in from improper definitions of system properties 2011-06-19 22:13 I needed something like this when I designed a simple 3-line communication protocol 2011-06-19 22:13 e.g. dealing with tty IO, you need to take into account FIFO size and propagation delay of RTS/CTS handshake 2011-06-19 22:13 it worked great most of the time, but it could hang up on transmission errors 2011-06-19 22:14 for the usual things I have my builtin natural promela ;-) 2011-06-19 22:14 which is one of my better properties 2011-06-19 22:16 DocScrutinizer: you'd be surprised how badly even simple-looking protocols can derail :) 2011-06-19 22:16 I'm well aware :-) 2011-06-19 22:16 not unusual I exploit such flaws ;-) 2011-06-19 22:18 generally it all boils down to "missing else" syndrome, most of the cases 2011-06-19 22:52 moin jungs 2011-06-19 22:52 hai 2011-06-19 22:56 no 1 alive? 2011-06-19 23:07 any guru awake? 2011-06-19 23:07 needs to pray once again ;) 2011-06-19 23:08 there are probably several gurus awake 2011-06-19 23:08 but since you didn't pose a question yet they can't decide on the responsibility 2011-06-19 23:10 I need 'enlightement'. 2011-06-19 23:11 In other channel someone meant there ain't no need to use 64bit kernal, if memory < 4Gig. 2011-06-19 23:12 He pretend it is bad because 64bit programms need twice the memory compared to 32bit programs 2011-06-19 23:12 is this treu? 2011-06-19 23:12 before we discuss this further please be aware that this is the wrong channel 2011-06-19 23:12 its not about general hardware but the Qi project in particular 2011-06-19 23:12 coz if so: I run 3 days now without swap, and memory is seldom more than 40% in use 2011-06-19 23:13 and yes, its true that 64bit programs use a bit more space but not exactly twice as much 2011-06-19 23:15 okay & thx. 2011-06-19 23:16 So i shall reinstall in 32bits :D 2011-06-19 23:16 x86-64 has more registers though 2011-06-19 23:16 for some applications that might give a performance boost 2011-06-19 23:16 depends on whether it's limited by memory bandwidth or by raw processing power 2011-06-19 23:16 The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.trunk-full_system-06182011-1954/