2011-06-17 01:14 wpwrak, hi if my *.brd under folder /A, do i cd into /A then directly use fab/prettygerbv? how's syntax for it? 2011-06-17 01:18 wpwrak, /fab/prettygerbv -d whatever "project-name" all allgerber.png ?  "project-name" here is supposed my folder /A ? 2011-06-17 01:19 lemem check :) 2011-06-17 01:19 s/lemem/lemme/ 2011-06-17 01:20 first, you need to generate the gerbers 2011-06-17 01:20 then you go to the directory where your gerbers are and 2011-06-17 01:20 prettygerbv project-name all overview.png 2011-06-17 01:21 it needs the project name because kicad prefixes all the gerber files with the project name. so you get atusb-Front.gtl, atusb-Back.gbl, etc. 2011-06-17 01:22 instead of "all" you can also use "front", "back", or "conn" 2011-06-17 01:22 the -d is for the drill file (.drl). if you want to include that too, then the invocation is 2011-06-17 01:23 well, no. first the drill file needs to be converted from .drl to geber. that would be 2011-06-17 01:23 drl2gerber drill-file.drl drill-file.gbr 2011-06-17 01:23 and then 2011-06-17 01:24 prettygerbv -d drill-file.gbr project-name all overview.png 2011-06-17 01:24 i see, so the "project-name" is now for me is "usb_jtag-xxxxx" >>> "usb_jtag"? 2011-06-17 01:24 so yes, you cd into /A and do things from there 2011-06-17 01:25 yes 2011-06-17 01:27 okay..try now. :-) 2011-06-17 01:32 wpwrak, do i need chmod for that script first? 2011-06-17 01:32 it should already be executable (?) 2011-06-17 01:33 if it isn't, yes :) 2011-06-17 01:33 adam@adam-laptop:~/extras-m1/jtag-serial$ prettygerbv usb_jtag front overview.png 2011-06-17 01:34 what words before 'prettygerbv' i need to enter? 2011-06-17 01:34 current the prettygerbv is under my /home/adam/eda-tools/fab   2011-06-17 01:34 just the path to it, in case it's not in PATH 2011-06-17 01:35 hi aw 2011-06-17 01:35 then it would be: /home/adam/eda-tools/fab/prettygerbv usb_jtag front overview.png 2011-06-17 01:35 man~ i don't know command line type well... i know nothing. :-) 2011-06-17 01:35 DocScrutinizer, hi 2011-06-17 01:36 aw: by the way, the invocation of all these things is  http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/makefiles/Makefile.kicad 2011-06-17 01:36 aw: it's not very easy to read, but it's a handy reference because everything is in one place 2011-06-17 01:36 ot question: what's Ben's audiosystem? 2011-06-17 01:37 DocScrutinizer: you mean the codec ? some ac97 built into the SoC 2011-06-17 01:37 wpwrak, do u meant that i need to make your tools firstly then i can just type >> prettygerbv ****** ? 2011-06-17 01:38 nah, I mean the system, like PukeAudio vs ALSA, vs dunno OSS4 whatever 2011-06-17 01:38 aw: no no, prettygerbv is a shell script 2011-06-17 01:39 aw: the makefile i mentioned calls prettygerbv (and a number of other scripts). so you can see there how these things are used 2011-06-17 01:40 aw: e.g., when i want to make the overview in atben or atusb, i simply do "make overview". it will then generate the gerbers, the drill file, convert the drill file to gerber, and finally run prettygerbv 2011-06-17 01:40 I'd guess ylu didn't want PissAudio on such a relatively modest CPU 2011-06-17 01:40 wpwrak, wow..okay 2011-06-17 01:40 aw: if you look at http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atben/Makefile 2011-06-17 01:41 aw: (which is the project-specific makefile) you'll see that all the magic is in Makefile.kicad 2011-06-17 01:42 wpwrak, hmm..okay..those two scripts are. 2011-06-17 01:42 DocScrutinizer: duh. i guess that may depend on the distribution. i haven't used audio on the ben so far ;-) 2011-06-17 01:42 wpwrak, Loading project _gvp... 2011-06-17 01:42 main_open_project_from_filename():  Opening project = /home/adam/extras-m1/jtag-serial/_gvp 2011-06-17 01:42 ** Message: could not read /home/adam/extras-m1/jtag-serial/_gvp[-1] 2011-06-17 01:42 sure it's a distro thing, also question of what's supported for the hw 2011-06-17 01:42 wpwrak, what does this mean? 2011-06-17 01:43 aw: i mention these makefiles just for reference, in case you want have a closer look at the details and/or automate the process 2011-06-17 01:43 aw: hmm. that means that a temporary file wasn't generated 2011-06-17 01:44 wpwrak, okay..if i have more time to have a closer look. but sorry that i have to see those images firstly. :-) 2011-06-17 01:44 aw: can you please paste the exact command you used ? 2011-06-17 01:45 wpwrak, adam@adam-laptop:~/extras-m1/jtag-serial$ /home/adam/eda-tools/fab/prettygerbv usb_jtag front overview.png 2011-06-17 01:45 aw: that should work 2011-06-17 01:46 aw: were there any messages before  Loading project _gvp...  ? 2011-06-17 01:46 wpwrak, no, then shows that msg though 2011-06-17 01:46 aw: what does   gerbv --version   say ? 2011-06-17 01:47 do i need to use drl2gerber drill-file.drl drill-file.gbr firstly? 2011-06-17 01:47 wpwrak, gerbv version 2.4.0 2011-06-17 01:47 Copyright (C) 2001 -- 2008 by Stefan Petersen 2011-06-17 01:47 and the respective original authors listed in the source files. 2011-06-17 01:47 aw: i have the same version. good so far. 2011-06-17 01:48 aq; no, you don't need drl2gerber yet (only with the -d option) 2011-06-17 01:48 wpwrak, okay 2011-06-17 01:48 s/aq/aw/ 2011-06-17 01:48 *hmm* 2011-06-17 01:48 what does   ls usb_jtag*  say ? 2011-06-17 01:49 usb_jtag.000  usb_jtag.brd  usb_jtag.pro  usb_jtag.rpt  usb_jtag.sch 2011-06-17 01:49 no gerbers ? 2011-06-17 01:49 or did you type  ls usb_jtag.*   ? :) 2011-06-17 01:49 my gerbers are all under /A/gerber/ 2011-06-17 01:50 usb_jtag? what's that? 2011-06-17 01:50 urgh. that explains it. okay, cd /A/gerber 2011-06-17 01:50 then try prettygerbv again 2011-06-17 01:51 DocScrutinizer, hi https://github.com/milkymist/extras-m1 2011-06-17 01:51 DocScrutinizer: the jtag dongle for M1 2011-06-17 01:51 what's a jtag dongle? 2011-06-17 01:52 DocScrutinizer: an usb to jtag interface. the name kinda hints at its function ;-) 2011-06-17 01:52 not necessarily 2011-06-17 01:52 s/an/a/ 2011-06-17 01:53 so it's M1 debubo? 2011-06-17 01:53 aw: how did it go ? success or sucks ? :) 2011-06-17 01:54 DocScrutinizer: sort of, yes. i think it also has a UART. uses one of the ftdi chips, like our good old friend, the openmoko debug board. 2011-06-17 01:54 wpwrak, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/adam/m1/jtagserial/jtag_rc2_overview.png 2011-06-17 01:54 wpwrak, GREAT, THANK YOU! 2011-06-17 01:54 :nod: 2011-06-17 01:55 aw: now bad :-) 2011-06-17 01:55 aw: now, you should also add the holes 2011-06-17 01:55 aw: do you have a drill file ? (usb_jtag.drl) 2011-06-17 01:55 wpwrak, you meant drill gerber? 2011-06-17 01:55 wpwrak, let me use your another tool. :-) 2011-06-17 01:56 aw: first the .drl 2011-06-17 01:56 aw: if you don't have it, pcbnew --drill --origin=aux /your/path/usb_jtag.brd 2011-06-17 01:57 wpwrak, i generated it already from gui pcbnew. :-) 2011-06-17 01:57 aw: let's hope the coordinates are right ;-) 2011-06-17 01:57 wpwrak, second . let me try. don't know. :-) 2011-06-17 01:57 (jtag) just idly wondered if somebody finally put JTAG to purpose as meant by those who invented it 2011-06-17 01:57 aw: okay, then you can convert it with drl2gerber 2011-06-17 01:57 on some qi device 2011-06-17 01:58 aw: if the coordinates are wrong, you'll get a BIG image with the board in one corner and all the holes in another. easy to notice ;-) 2011-06-17 01:58 DocScrutinizer: where would be the fun in that ? ;-) 2011-06-17 01:59 where where originally automatic QA in manufacturing 2011-06-17 02:00 total control over each pin of the main chips, sending H on one chio:pin and see if trace and soldering is OK so H arrives at chip2:pin2 2011-06-17 02:02 DocScrutinizer: you'll find something quite similar in http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/prod/atusb :) 2011-06-17 02:02 o.O 2011-06-17 02:02 DocScrutinizer: only controlling one chip, though. the other isn't that sophisticated. 2011-06-17 02:03 wpwrak, one question, pcbnew can generate a drill gerber. why you need to write drl2gerber ? 2011-06-17 02:04 aah, you're using a JTAG set of TP to bitbang atmel's IOs and check for soldering defects? 2011-06-17 02:04 wpwrak, http://pastebin.com/vw5gcHqR 2011-06-17 02:05 DocScrutinizer: i just toggle the GPIOs via USB. don't have JTAG connectivity. 2011-06-17 02:06 aw: (drill gerber) hmm, a real gerber ? or the excellon (.drl) ? 2011-06-17 02:06 so what's the similar thing then? 2011-06-17 02:07 DocScrutinizer: same kind of test 2011-06-17 02:07 wpwrak, it generates a 'usb_jtag-drl.pho' 2011-06-17 02:07 aw: ah, sorry. drl2gerber usb_jtag.drl >usb_jtag.gbr 2011-06-17 02:08 wpwrak, oah...type ">" ? 2011-06-17 02:09 aw: yup, just the   >   was missing 2011-06-17 02:10 aw: (*-drl.pho) hmm, i think i've seen this. looks a bit different from the actual holes, though. prettygerbv tries to make "photo-realistic" output. 2011-06-17 02:19 wpwrak, http://pastebin.com/uBSD5wpp 2011-06-17 02:23 hmm ... 2011-06-17 02:24 wpwrak, let me try to generate drill by setting "Zeros format" not "Suppress leading zeros" .:-) 2011-06-17 02:25 aw: maybe just use the command-line variant ? i know that one works :) 2011-06-17 02:25 i picked "Suppress leading zeros" for close gerber viewer tool. maybe this caused that. 2011-06-17 02:26 wpwrak, sorry , how to generate drill by commands? 2011-06-17 02:26 pcbnew --drill --origin=aux /your/path/usb_jtag.brd 2011-06-17 02:27 oah~this one. :-) 2011-06-17 02:28 and then drl2gerber 2011-06-17 02:29 hehe, c&p comes in handy 2011-06-17 02:32 wpwrak, pcbnew opened and shows "File <--drill.brd> not existing 2011-06-17 02:32 This is normal for a new project" 2011-06-17 02:32 is it supposed to be that? 2011-06-17 02:34 hmm no. seems that your kicad doesn't have our patches for --drill and such 2011-06-17 02:36 aw: your boss will not be happy - all his hard work ignored you :) 2011-06-17 02:36 wolfspraul: btw, how's the upstreaming of the kicad patches going ? (-:C 2011-06-17 02:37 oh, LWM now 2011-06-17 02:37 LWM ? 2011-06-17 02:37 LWN 2011-06-17 02:37 sorry 2011-06-17 02:38 wpwrak, hmm...okay..although this way i can't get there now, but i think i still trust those gerbers i generated. :-) 2011-06-17 02:38 wpwrak: http://lwn.net/Articles/448048/rss 2011-06-17 02:38 wolfspraul: let's try it manually then. drill units: inches, zeros format: decimal, drill origin: auxiliary, all other options off/none 2011-06-17 02:38 oops 2011-06-17 02:38 wpwrak, with your tools, it can let people to see the whole gerber pictures though. :-) 2011-06-17 02:38 s/wolfspraul/aw/ 2011-06-17 02:39 whee, lwn. nice ;-) 2011-06-17 02:41 i feel atusb soon sold out :-) 2011-06-17 02:41 aw: (options) wait .. that doesn't work ... 2011-06-17 02:43 wpwrak, hup? what's that doesn't work? 2011-06-17 02:43 aw: drill origin absolute. then it'll work. 2011-06-17 02:43 aw: in the drill file dialog 2011-06-17 02:43 aw: then drl2gerber, etc. 2011-06-17 02:44 rejon: so you have a good channel to LWN ;-) 2011-06-17 02:44 wpwrak: upstreaming - bah! That's one of the worst things I did this year 2011-06-17 02:44 first make a big plan, ask for feedback, get very nice feedback, then do nothing 2011-06-17 02:44 really really bad 2011-06-17 02:44 wolfspraul: this or last year ? :-) 2011-06-17 02:45 I sent my mails there in January or so, I think 2011-06-17 02:45 and I got very encouraging feedback 2011-06-17 02:45 then silence from me. argh. 2011-06-17 02:45 not good, I know 2011-06-17 02:45 my worst job this year, by far 2011-06-17 02:45 the thing is that I need to push on this freaking m1 rc3 release, it's delayed by several months now 2011-06-17 02:46 all for good reasons, but I have to get this thing done and into the shop 2011-06-17 02:46 I'm sold out on m1 right now 2011-06-17 02:46 hmm, don't see them right now. they must be hiding somewhere in the wrong mail folder. 2011-06-17 02:46 was it in late December? I don't think so 2011-06-17 02:46 I hacked up the command line stuff around christmas 2011-06-17 02:46 so must have been January 2011-06-17 02:46 but it doesn't matter, I dropped the ball there 2011-06-17 02:46 bad 2011-06-17 02:46 projects that are on time are rushed ;-) 2011-06-17 02:47 I have to continue 100% on m1 now 2011-06-17 02:47 imagine tuxbrain wouldn't come to help with ben-wpan!? 2011-06-17 02:48 moo wolfspraul 2011-06-17 02:48 xiangfu: hi ! 2011-06-17 02:48 kristianpaul: hi 2011-06-17 02:49 xiangfu: in flicernoise, will be nice implement a ramdisk in a proper way, that will help a lot for benchmarks/debug i think, and also me in order to be able to take bigger raw samples from the gps frontend 2011-06-17 02:50 xiangfu: i can point you again to some sample code and chat log from #rtems about what is needed to do it 2011-06-17 02:50 kristianpaul: ok. thanks. 2011-06-17 02:50 aw: did it go better this time ? 2011-06-17 02:51 wolfspraul: (tuxbrain) yeah, he saved us there 2011-06-17 02:52 wpwrak, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/adam/m1/jtagserial/overview.png 2011-06-17 02:52 wpwrak, yes 2011-06-17 02:52 aw: that's more like it ;-) 2011-06-17 02:52 aw: congratulations ! 2011-06-17 02:53 wpwrak, guess what? just only one difference on zeros format: decimal compared to my close gerber viewer settings. :-) 2011-06-17 02:54 aw: heh :) yes, the number format in excellon is extremely weird 2011-06-17 02:54 wpwrak, congratulations on you too. I am the first one user to use your smart tool though, am i? :-P 2011-06-17 02:54 aw: btw, did you notice ? you have silk screen on your pads :) "FB2", "R14", "FB3" 2011-06-17 02:55 (or very close to them) 2011-06-17 02:55 xiangfu: http://paste.debian.net/120121/ 2011-06-17 02:55 aw: (1st user) yup :) 2011-06-17 02:55 xiangfu: i think is not so hard, i just dint had time to look at it, 2011-06-17 02:55 wpwrak, yah..i can move them a little though. :-) 2011-06-17 02:56 kristianpaul: got it. 2011-06-17 02:56 aw: i found these overviews great for optimizing the silk screen. i kicad, you often overlook some things. 2011-06-17 02:57 wpwrak, man!..i need to record all those steps, otherwise i'll forget them. :-) 2011-06-17 02:57 aw: make a script :-) 2011-06-17 02:57 wolfspraul: are you any way interested or even involved in gta02 anymore? 2011-06-17 02:58 kristianpaul: there already is a makefile :) but ... he needs a patched kicad for it 2011-06-17 02:58 wpwrak, yeah from pcbnew it's not easy to make all silk screen text to be well-done though. your three-images can look well deeply. :-) 2011-06-17 02:58 DocScrutinizer: phew, that's hard to say 2011-06-17 02:58 wolfspraul: I recently found Mentorgfx has a free (as in beer) PADS viewer now 2011-06-17 02:58 that's like a history question :-) 2011-06-17 02:58 Werner did a lot of good things with gta02-core 2011-06-17 02:58 aw: like this: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/kicad-patches/README 2011-06-17 02:58 so we *could* "disclose" the PCB 2011-06-17 02:58 wpwrak: ah, thats much better 2011-06-17 02:59 kristianpaul, man..you know that i was poor on s/w side now. but indeed the script truely great... i like it. 2011-06-17 02:59 but I don't know whether/how/when we can make this go anywhere now, or should even try 2011-06-17 02:59 I am very interested in wireless connectivity 2011-06-17 02:59 we have ben-wpan now, we need a lot of luck, and then in 1 year we have a great software stack for it :-) 2011-06-17 02:59 aw: you will not believe but i never had done a script before.. 2011-06-17 02:59 kristianpaul works on gps-sdr, also fine 2011-06-17 03:00 i need improve on that path some day, for now memory still good :) 2011-06-17 03:00 what's missing is a longer range wireless protocol 2011-06-17 03:00 how longer? 2011-06-17 03:00 wolfspraul: just pondering about contributing as much as possible to community hive wisdom about that ancient abandoned project 2011-06-17 03:00 we looked at the ISM stuff (hoperf modules), but maybe not so interesting 2011-06-17 03:00 then we hvae the gsm/3g/edge/lte world, well, I am following now 2011-06-17 03:00 I support osmocom a little, mostly just watching though 2011-06-17 03:00 I know where I can source any mtk chip, if needed 2011-06-17 03:01 wolfspraul: I'd care about it, if we could get 'OK' from whoever owns the rights of the gta02 PADS project files now 2011-06-17 03:01 but I have no clear feelings on that side now, anything longer range. So for the time being I focus on the 802.15.4 stuff Werner started, short-range stuff 2011-06-17 03:01 wolfspraul: get some chinese company to add a 10 W RF amplifier and we can go ~700 m ;-) 2011-06-17 03:01 DocScrutinizer: I'm definitely the wrong person to ask about that. 2011-06-17 03:02 wpwrak, this http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/kicad-patches/README  you meant i need to git pull and rebuild KiCad? 2011-06-17 03:02 that's why I asked if you are involved anymore 2011-06-17 03:02 I'm not sure but I think I have a good chance to still be #1 on Billy's persona-non-grata list 2011-06-17 03:02 I gaher you're also not inclined to talk to about it? 2011-06-17 03:02 you or me have the same powers about sending mails 2011-06-17 03:03 aah ok 2011-06-17 03:03 most likely they will go answered 2011-06-17 03:03 when you are high up there (ahem), the problems of us lowly workers are not worth too much attention... 2011-06-17 03:03 DocScrutinizer: well, maybe you should ask about the gerbers. that may cause some uneasiness on the receiving end. like "damn, are they STILL not dead ?" :) 2011-06-17 03:04 wolfspraul: so you got any clue who's the right persn to ask now? Still SMP? 2011-06-17 03:04 DocScrutinizer: err, i mean design files 2011-06-17 03:04 DocScrutinizer: on the long range stuff, in addition to following osmocom, pondering about lte chips, mtk chips, I am also following some IETF white-space developments 2011-06-17 03:04 or 802.22 (I think that's what it was) 2011-06-17 03:05 but that's all just for crazy thinking once in a while, none of that is real 2011-06-17 03:05 as werner pointed out I'm not even living up to small upstreaming promises right now... 2011-06-17 03:06 DocScrutinizer: seriously, you have absolutely none, zero, chance to get anything out of there. 2011-06-17 03:06 I've tried to tell this politely to Werner years ago when he believed in some support, well, Werner found out later :-) 2011-06-17 03:07 you may ask well email ceo@nokia.com to release the N900 gerbers 2011-06-17 03:07 sigh 2011-06-17 03:08 ooh, typo above, I meant "most likely they will go unanswered" 2011-06-17 03:09 just try :-) 2011-06-17 03:09 send another one about n900 gerbers to ceo@nokia.com, see which one gives you a more meaningful answer :-) 2011-06-17 03:10 10W RF amplifier... 2011-06-17 03:10 makes me thinking here :-) 2011-06-17 03:11 how come a good old GSM phone can send signals 5+ km? and ben-wpan only 10m ? 2011-06-17 03:11 why is that so? 2011-06-17 03:11 GSM=500mW 2011-06-17 03:12 wpan=2mW 2011-06-17 03:12 also frequency/band makes a difference 2011-06-17 03:12 if a wpan would just scream out loud with 500mW too, what would happen to other wpans nearby? 2011-06-17 03:12 sqrt(500mW/2mW)*10m = 158 m. GSM still beats us :-( 2011-06-17 03:12 the 500mW wpan would drown out everybody else within a long range, no? 2011-06-17 03:13 wpwrak: 900MHz vs 2400MHz 2011-06-17 03:13 wolfspraul: everybody, including wifi, bluetooth, ... 2011-06-17 03:13 DocScrutinizer: some f^2 law ? 2011-06-17 03:13 wpwrak: wolfspraul: then you mustn't miss the pretty decent antenna of BTS 2011-06-17 03:14 wpwrak: kinda 2011-06-17 03:14 calculates ... 2011-06-17 03:14 wpwrak: the higher the freq, the more you need line of sight 2011-06-17 03:15 158m*(2.4GHz/0.9GHz)^2 = 1124 m. we're getting there. add massive antenna gain and the numbers work. 2011-06-17 03:15 I guess with a tower and antennae like on a BTS for one end of wpan, you'd get up to 500m with 2mW 2011-06-17 03:16 oh, and the 10 m range for wpan may be a bit on the low side. tuxbrain got ~12 m and we still don't know how good/bad the boards really are. someone with real RF knowledge and a lab will have to find out. 2011-06-17 03:17 "real RF knowledge", that must be me 2011-06-17 03:17 I know how to turn on my phone! 2011-06-17 03:17 wolfspraul: hehe ;-) 2011-06-17 03:17 DocScrutinizer: ah, and GSM is a much lower data rate. that helps too. 2011-06-17 03:17 s/is/has/ 2011-06-17 03:17 sure 2011-06-17 03:18 wolfspraul: btw, how do you like my rants on the ben-wpan wiki page ? 2011-06-17 03:20 taking another nap, got an appointment in 3h 2011-06-17 03:20 o/ 2011-06-17 03:23 DocScrutinizer: maybe when you get up then - do you know anything about the TV white-space stuff? 802.22? are there any RF ICs we could hookup to get some longer-range (hopefully) communication going? 2011-06-17 03:23 or is this just a bad direction overall... 2011-06-17 03:25 there has been so much wiki editing, not sure what you mean 2011-06-17 03:25 somehow Jon got a snippet up on lwn.net, that is good 2011-06-17 03:25 where does that point to? lemme check 2011-06-17 03:25 god, points to 10 different places 2011-06-17 03:27 ;-)) 2011-06-17 03:29 the wiki page is still a mess. inconsistencies, etc. i just put a pointer to my page at the beginning. i hope people use it ;) 2011-06-17 03:30 short and up-to-date is good 2011-06-17 03:30 if David manages to get something on slashdot, it should point to your page right away, and only to that 2011-06-17 03:30 wolfspraul: (wiki editing) the three sections i mentioned in the mail on which i copied. particularly "How is this patent free wireless?" 2011-06-17 03:30 in fact that may have been one reason for the rejection last time - I think they hate little articles that point in all sorts of directions 2011-06-17 03:30 me too, btw 2011-06-17 03:31 imagine you find out about something new, you only saw some snippets/words that caught your interest 2011-06-17 03:31 now you want to learn more, but you have 5 links pointing in all crazy directions on the Internet 2011-06-17 03:31 not nice :-) 2011-06-17 03:31 yeah, that's a bit wikipedia style. every word a link :) 2011-06-17 03:32 for someone reading an encyclopedia that's fine 2011-06-17 03:32 not that i'd necessarily mind, but there should be at least a consistent story, and if there's one link that's more important than the rest, it should clearly stick out 2011-06-17 03:32 but when I read a news post, and I want to read more, I want to be sent to one, and exactly one, place 2011-06-17 03:33 kinda those "(more)" buttons 2011-06-17 03:35 I think they do that [more] to find out reliably how far people are actually reading 2011-06-17 03:36 yes, that must be the real motivation 2011-06-17 03:42 so, removed some more misconceptions. the 2nd sentence still gives me a bellyache. it's not using UBB, and yes, there is new testing software as well, it's not the main point. brr. confusing. 2011-06-17 04:04 phew. cleaned up the worst. i hope :) let's see what nightmares will crawl out of it :) 2011-06-17 05:16 tuxbrain_HxxHhzo: is it possible to order now from tuxbrain.com? (you mentioned that you wanted to update the shipment cost to Russia) 2011-06-17 06:02 wolfspraul: I have no idea about 802.22 yet - will dig into it a bit. If I find interesting stuff or remarkable factoids I'll let you know 2011-06-17 06:02 nice, thanks 2011-06-17 06:02 I think it's all quite speculative right now 2011-06-17 06:03 I'm looking for something that can be as free as ben-wpan, but longer range 2011-06-17 06:26 generally longer range means more trouble about cert 2011-06-17 06:33 yeah wpwrak wolfspraul that wiki page for ben-wpan was an attempt to get something down, and to understand/explain to others 2011-06-17 06:33 i completely agree important to have a to-the-point page 2011-06-17 06:33 previously stuff locked in brains and in git repos ;) 2011-06-17 06:34 ideally the project would even have a good name so don't need a page at all 2011-06-17 06:34 ;) 2011-06-17 06:34 anyway, i don't know how that got onto lwn 2011-06-17 06:34 who know who reads my shit 2011-06-17 08:05 [commit] kyak: Store/restore alsa settings correctly. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ec8d8f8 2011-06-17 08:09 xiangfu: hi! is it time now to stop building backfire images and rename trunk->master? :) 2011-06-17 08:11 kyak: I am waiting your order :) 2011-06-17 08:11 let's stop the backfire building first. 2011-06-17 08:11 xiangfu: :)) 2011-06-17 08:12 trunk->master, I can do that weekend, not today. (I am not ready for that :) 2011-06-17 08:13 sure, ok 2011-06-17 08:19 kyak: backfire build stopped, also I remove all backfire images. 2011-06-17 08:19 xiangfu: ok! 2011-06-17 08:20 xiangfu: btw, do you have control over dega-1.14-NanoNote-Edition.tar.gz? 2011-06-17 08:20 i mean, the tarbal at SF 2011-06-17 08:20 there is some problem with it 2011-06-17 08:21 kyak: no. 2011-06-17 08:21 I remember someone in mailing list have that right. let me find 2011-06-17 08:21 1) the tarball seems to have changed on server. You have downloded it before to http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.trunk-full_system/dl/, and the checksum doesn't match the current one 2011-06-17 08:22 2) there is some problem with permissions, we have to do nasty things in Makefile 2011-06-17 08:22 chmod'ing 2011-06-17 08:22 2) yes. 2011-06-17 08:22 1) didn't notice this one. 2011-06-17 08:22 i think i'll start by adding the md5sum to Makefile. .so that your version would be re-downloaded 2011-06-17 08:23 currently it fails on buildhost because patches can't be applied 2011-06-17 08:23 kyak: here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#Degap_on_Ben_91 2011-06-17 08:24 dega* in dl/ removed 2011-06-17 08:26 the dega is very slow in Ben nanonote, but it's a good app. 2011-06-17 08:26 yeah, it's pretty slow, but i played Mortal Combat a little bit :) 2011-06-17 08:26 and Sonic the Hedgehog 2011-06-17 08:27 [commit] kyak: dega: add md5sum for tarball http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/d8162a7 2011-06-17 08:29 (patches can't be applied)?  I just tried, patch fine. 2011-06-17 08:31 xiangfu: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.trunk-full_system-06102011-0026/BUILD_LOG.bz2 2011-06-17 08:31 check this BUILD log 2011-06-17 08:31 chmod -R 755 /home/xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.trunk-full_system/build_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.32/dega-1.14 2011-06-17 08:31 Applying ./patches/001-fix-compile-in-openwrt.patch using plaintext: 2011-06-17 08:31 patching file Makefile 2011-06-17 08:31 Hunk #1 FAILED at 8. 2011-06-17 08:32 of course it won't fail now if you've re-downloaded the tarball 2011-06-17 08:33 (it only failed with the previous version of dega* in dl/) 2011-06-17 08:33 i wonder what takes it so long to accept your patch for sshfs: http://patchwork.openwrt.org/patch/605/ 2011-06-17 08:34 oh 2011-06-17 08:34 it has been failing to build for months now 2011-06-17 08:34 the patch is trivial and works 2011-06-17 08:40 xiangfu: how do you think, would it be usefull to have a file listing packages that failed to build ? 2011-06-17 08:40 that would save some work downloading and grep'ing that BUILD_LOG :) 2011-06-17 08:40 kyak: yes. it will be usefull for sure. 2011-06-17 08:40 yes 2011-06-17 08:41 i can have a look into doing that 2011-06-17 08:41 wolfspraul: seems 802.22 is in fight with 802.11af 2011-06-17 08:44 wolfspraul: last I heard  about the so called 'digitale dividende' from switching to DVB-T and thus freeing channels (white space) been that it shall get used by carriers to bring proper internet to rural areas here in D. Which would conflict wit the 'licence free' of 802.22 2011-06-17 08:46 kyak: great. thanks. 2011-06-17 08:48 xiangfu: done :) 2011-06-17 09:39 wolfspraul: >> Grundsätzlich lässt sich bezüglich einer Einführung von CR-Geräten sagen, dass Sensing alleine nicht zu einer ausreichenden Interferenzminimierung führt, so dass nur bei Kleinleistungsgeräten, bei denen eine weitestgehende Interferenzminimierung nicht erforderlich ist, diese Technik alleine genutzt werden kann. Für andere Anwendungen, die CR-Technik in hierarchischer Nutzung einsetzen, ist Geo- lokalisierung mit 2011-06-17 09:39 Datenbanken erforderlich.<< http://www.bmwi.de/BMWi/Redaktion/PDF/Publikationen/Technologie-und-Innovation/frequenzregulierung-fuer-software-defined-radio-cognitive-radio,property=pdf,bereich=bmwi,sprache=de,rwb=true.pdf 2011-06-17 09:40 wolfspraul: so it's basically lost case for long range non-cert trouble-free connections 2011-06-17 09:41 not really, because this geo-locations with database backend is what people are working on 2011-06-17 09:41 as you will need a database to make sure you're not causing trouble for nearby receivers trying to catch weak signal of a prioritized broadcast station 2011-06-17 09:42 http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-patil-paws-problem-stmt-01.txt 2011-06-17 09:42 indeed, that's the prerequisite to use higher TX power, but that would need some sort of network connection AIUI, so you'd have access to that database 2011-06-17 09:44 given the publication dates of related documents, I'd guess it'll take another few years til this tech is commonly adopted, except of course for 802.11af aka WiFi(R) 2011-06-17 09:47 once WiFi 802.11af gets established it becomes a prioritized technology on the bands it uses, in a sense that other concurrent technology must guarantee interference free operation, which renders 802.22 basically incompatible and thus useless for the same freq ranges - my shoot from da hip take on it 2011-06-17 09:50 plus, as mentioned, I seem to recall statements of regulatory and gvmt speakers to the effect they want to give TV white space to carriers on a commercial basis, so they can roll out "wimax-II" on it, for DSL alike service in rural areas 2011-06-17 09:50 at least here in germany 2011-06-17 09:51 JFYI, will loosely follow up on the topic and occasionally toss over another remark, link, quotation... whatever 2011-06-17 09:53 one last comment: I guess chip market is sparse atm, as there's no real volume customer base 2011-06-17 09:53 yet 2011-06-17 09:54 first to come: probably 802.11af chipsets, which quite likely are "downscalable" to 802.22 2011-06-17 09:58 DocScrutinizer: yes correct, ICs is what I am mostly interested in 2011-06-17 09:58 and I think to a large part ICs will drive regulation too 2011-06-17 09:58 in that sense I don't care so much what a regulator in Germany has to say about this right now 2011-06-17 09:58 they may say something else next year 2011-06-17 09:59 and in the end, once you have functioning products that you sell to end users directly, that's something that is very hard to stop in any case 2011-06-17 09:59 not to say bust the regulator, but my point is - if the FCC moves forward with something, and creates a big market, and some IC makers invest a lot of money to make cheap and powerful chips, that creates a lot of momentum (and pressure) for regulators elsewhere... 2011-06-17 10:00 you'll see this happen... for WiFi 2011-06-17 10:00 I'll read up on 802.11af 2011-06-17 10:01 German regulators don't have enough critical mass anymore to drive large-scale IC investments 2011-06-17 10:01 imho 2011-06-17 10:01 once the WiFi association sells 802.11af in large numbers, you're screwed on CR 802.22 2011-06-17 10:01 FCC does, but even they need to speed up, otherwise something is developed in China and sold throughout the entire 3rd world, creating a momentum that will then force the FCC to just slap their stuff around it or become irrelevant 2011-06-17 10:02 It's about WiFi association mafia, not any German regulator 2011-06-17 10:02 ok fine - if you see interesting chips please holler 2011-06-17 10:02 the world is a big place, many things are happening :-) 2011-06-17 10:03 wolfspraul: have you ever seen FCC or USA at large care about rest of the world? At best in a sense like "they use GSM900/1800, so let's do it differently here to protect our markets" 2011-06-17 10:04 (holler) sure thing 2011-06-17 10:05 DocScrutinizer: I don't know, I don't follow regulation closely 2011-06-17 10:05 I think there is also competition between regulatory bodies 2011-06-17 10:05 everybody wants to have the 'important' standards 2011-06-17 10:05 :shrug: 2011-06-17 10:05 maybe 2011-06-17 10:05 then USA FCC is performing really poor on that :-P 2011-06-17 10:06 so sometimes a standard from a competing body is just renumbered and reissued. quite a bit of heat between ITU and IETF for example. 2011-06-17 10:06 I'm just looking for great chips 2011-06-17 10:06 in the end really great chips require a lot of investment 2011-06-17 10:06 so whoever invests that must have a strong idea how to sell the volume required to recoup the investment 2011-06-17 10:06 every now and then I get to know about a new chip. I'll drop you a note instantly 2011-06-17 10:06 once that has happened, I don't care how or why it happened, I just want to source that chip for a few USD 2011-06-17 10:07 the next problem is regulatory oversight in particular markets 2011-06-17 10:07 which I have no problem with, just need to understand and see how to comply 2011-06-17 10:07 but in that order, for me :-) 2011-06-17 10:07 otherwise I get lost debating all sorts of hypothetical regulation 2011-06-17 10:07 the white-space stuff looks like it has some momentum 2011-06-17 10:08 sure, just saying WiFi is the only interest group with enough power to push chips 2011-06-17 10:08 how much? don't know 2011-06-17 10:08 I'm sure about that 2011-06-17 10:08 also I don't think potential multi-billion USD investments are driven by regulatory decisions, I think it's the other way round 2011-06-17 10:08 so you are right, Wi-Fi has huge capital, they can make chips, and drive regulation 2011-06-17 10:09 that's the reason why I think 802.22 won't fly in the end 2011-06-17 11:17 tuxbrain_HxxHhzo: how are atben/atusb sales so far? 2011-06-17 11:18 unless you want to hide your riches and don't tell us :-) 2011-06-17 11:49 The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.trunk-full_system-06162011-0817/ 2011-06-17 12:12 wolfspraul: he's probably busy training the new shift of 100 factory workers in the flashing and testing of the boards ;-) 2011-06-17 12:52 wpwrak: if they'd be spanish, that would be quite costly. but I think he could just order some chinese ones wholesale... 2011-06-17 12:53 whitequark: yeah, a container of 'em :) 2011-06-17 14:48 nice, Qi-HW is on LWN 2011-06-17 14:48 https://lwn.net/Articles/448048/ 2011-06-17 14:53 methril_work: sorry I lost track. Didn't you get a milkymist one too? 2011-06-17 14:54 wolfspraul, i get 2011-06-17 14:54 wolfspraul, i'm not having time t owork on ... right now 2011-06-17 14:56 tuxbrain_HxxHhzo: btw, are my ben-wpan boards already on the way ? if yes, can you please send me the tracking number so that i know when to pay attention ? 2011-06-17 15:02 [commit] Stefan Schmidt: usb/dfu.h: Include usb.h to avoid gcc warning http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a48c6dc 2011-06-17 15:13 methril_work: ah cool 2011-06-17 15:13 I just forgot 2011-06-17 15:13 no worries about no time, the product gets better every day :-) 2011-06-17 15:13 by the time you are ready, it will be really cool :-) 2011-06-17 15:14 wolfspraul, i hope to get ready any time soon (TM) :) 2011-06-17 15:14 perfect! 2011-06-17 15:14 :-) 2011-06-17 15:15 werner just helped fixed another nasty small hardware bug today :-) 2011-06-17 15:16 werner is amazing :) 2011-06-17 15:16 is DocScrutinizer or wpwrak ? 2011-06-17 15:18 Werner = wpwrak; Joerg = DocScrutinizer 2011-06-17 15:18 Ups!! it's right!! 2011-06-17 16:11 is it spoken slowpan, or blowpan, or glowpan? 2011-06-17 16:11 ~spell 6lowpan 2011-06-17 16:14 wonders how to spell "Joerg" correctly 2011-06-17 16:15 Jörg ;-D 2011-06-17 16:17 wonders how to spell "kyak" correctly 2011-06-17 16:28 my question not been about spelling  though. See scasy err SCSI 2011-06-17 16:31 DocScrutinizer: some seem to want to pronounce it "slowpan" 2011-06-17 16:31 DocScrutinizer: the official name for IEEE 802.15.4 would be Low-Rate Wireless Personal Area Network. so "slowpan" isn't too bad. 2011-06-17 16:32 DocScrutinizer: (and sounds a lot catchier ;-) 2011-06-17 18:44 hum, seems gpredict TLE file is not well update, or my closed source gps-receiver is laying? 2011-06-17 18:53 missing in gpredict prn 16, 23 and 19.. 2011-06-17 18:53 lets find other tle better 2011-06-17 18:57 you guys see we got on engadget 2011-06-17 18:57 http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/17/qi-hardware-debuts-free-open-source-wireless-solution-not-a-th/ 2011-06-17 18:59 there's no freaking link to buy them or the info about them!!!! 2011-06-17 19:00 but the source is tuxbrain 2011-06-17 19:01 also prices include taxes it seems 2011-06-17 19:04 ah, okay for some reason gpredict mismatch the name for this satellites 2011-06-17 19:06 read the comments 2011-06-17 19:08 good comments so far. it was clear that a lot of people wouldn't like the speed. some will also discover the range and find more to bitch about :) 2011-06-17 19:24 wpwrak, not like bt was ever useful for anybody despite every second handheld device having it ;) 2011-06-17 19:25 people will simply bitch about anything, i for one love the idea of an openhardware wireless standard 2011-06-17 19:39 the register article is pretty good wpwrak 2011-06-17 19:39 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/17/qi_hardware/ 2011-06-17 19:41 "Slow, short range, incompatible ... but it's pure" 2011-06-17 19:44 zear: (bt) oh, don't say that. when my internet-over-catv goes down, bt to my gprs phone is the only way out. it saved me a few times ;-) 2011-06-17 19:46 rejon: hmm, they got the 6lowpan a little wrong. perhaps also a bit confused about zigbee. but it worked - they took it ;-) 2011-06-17 19:46 next: heise.de ;-) 2011-06-17 19:46 now they can't possibly ignore it :) 2011-06-17 19:47 wpwrak, well, i guess it can be used that way, yes 2011-06-17 19:47 but it's not like this couldn't be done with wpan 2011-06-17 19:48 that are just rare situations when you need to use bt, but it's not like there are bt hotspots offering free internet everywhere ;) 2011-06-17 19:49 more balanced reaction on average on the reg. very large std deviation ;-) 2011-06-17 19:50 zear: well, like everything WPAN, BT is for the short range. don't expect to find IEEE 802.15.4 anytime soon at your airport ;-) 2011-06-17 20:19 saw jon's mail about the engadget article? 2011-06-17 20:19 http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/17/qi-hardware-debuts-free-open-source-wireless-solution-not-a-th/ 2011-06-17 20:20 maybe some people around here want to add something informative in between the ranting comments? 2011-06-17 20:34 oh cool. i can write but i can't post :-( 2011-06-17 20:35 wpwrak: need to log in (openid) 2011-06-17 20:35 if anyone wants to post this, please feel free: http://pastebin.com/QdY46RuJ 2011-06-17 20:36 try a different browser :) 2011-06-17 20:36 web-based interfaces just suck 2011-06-17 20:36 no, java-script based interfaces suck 2011-06-17 20:36 shall i post it under my name? 2011-06-17 20:36 or "forwarded from the designer of wpan?" 2011-06-17 20:37 dvdk: please feel free to use it in whichever way you feel appropriate :) 2011-06-17 20:37 ok, then i'll post the characters in reverse order. 2011-06-17 20:37 better, bit-reverse :) 2011-06-17 20:37 dvdk: i don't think it really matters who claims authorship 2011-06-17 20:37 dvdk: don't forget the double-rot13 ! 2011-06-17 20:38 but, it matters, whose opinion it is, doesn't it?  crazy engineer, vs. troll etc. 2011-06-17 20:39 curious, lwn article havent got comments yet 2011-06-17 20:39 dvdk: naw, opinions are opinions. you believe the ones you like, you find excuses for disregarding those you don't 2011-06-17 20:40 kristianpaul: maybe their troll deterrence is better ;-) 2011-06-17 20:41 oh, yes :_) 2011-06-17 20:42 posted 2011-06-17 20:49 what about the /. article.  still need that now that the cat is out of the bag? :) 2011-06-17 20:54 hmm, i guess it can't hurt to post something that points straight to my overview page. 2011-06-17 20:54 otherwise, they'll copy from the others before too long. 2011-06-17 20:54 with uncertain result. 2011-06-17 20:54 wpwrak: talking about /. or engadget? 2011-06-17 20:55 slashdot 2011-06-17 20:57 yes.  i think conciseness means low count of links with concentrated information.  maybe only your page + link to nanonote wiki page 2011-06-17 20:58 that sounds quite reasonable, yes 2011-06-17 20:59 is looking for the /. draft link 2011-06-17 20:59 found it http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Slashdot-20110615-benwpan 2011-06-17 20:59 the wiki page adds an air of mystery, which may have been good in the case of the reg, but in general, it may be more confusing that helpful 2011-06-17 20:59 (the Ben_WPAN wiki page) 2011-06-17 20:59 "reg"=? 2011-06-17 21:00 regISTER 2011-06-17 21:00 them: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/17/qi_hardware/ 2011-06-17 21:00 ahh, yes i know them 2011-06-17 21:02 "potentialy suitabley" too long 2011-06-17 21:02 oh, not is has grown sections ;-) 2011-06-17 21:03 "likely" ? 2011-06-17 21:05 "Nokia Windows Phones will launch in six European nations first, Finland not among them" i think they're really set on doing *everything* right ;-) 2011-06-17 21:06 wpwrak: (sections) still missing a TOC though :) 2011-06-17 21:06 and maybe an appendix with formulas ? ;-) 2011-06-17 21:40 ok, rewrote the article.  now much more concise.  people will have to click through werner's page to get to tuxbrain or see details. 2011-06-17 21:40 (  http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Slashdot-20110615-benwpan ) 2011-06-17 21:40 comments? 2011-06-17 21:40 (it's the v2 at the bottom) 2011-06-17 21:43 is fixing typos 2011-06-17 22:01 going to be offline until saturday around 10:00 utc 2011-06-17 22:01 cu 2011-06-17 22:53 wpwrak, did you get your FISL talk in?