2011-06-15 01:19 <wpwrak> hmm, can i rename a page in the qi-hw wiki ? e.g., Ben_WPAN -> Ben_WPAN_Background (there's way too much philosophy before this comes even near any technical details)
2011-06-15 01:27 <wpwrak> and while the philosophy can be useful, it's not well written. (e.g., jumps from 3rd person to 1st person and so on)
2011-06-15 01:37 <DocScrutinizer> mediawiki page rename is a pita, I heard. Basically you copy and delete I guess
2011-06-15 01:37 <wpwrak> heh ;-)
2011-06-15 01:37 <wpwrak> well, what i'll do is make a static page in HTML, like i did for ubb-vga
2011-06-15 01:38 <DocScrutinizer> (business model) too late, dude, way too late ;-D
2011-06-15 01:38 <wpwrak> life is too short to wrestle with mediawiki :)
2011-06-15 01:38 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: (shit blog) ah, i was afraid that someone may have had that brilliant idea already :)
2011-06-15 01:39 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: maybe my plan B will work, though. post a daily video clip of the killing of a kitten. or has that frontier been crossed too ?
2011-06-15 01:40 <DocScrutinizer> 3 years lated they invented arpanet
2011-06-15 01:42 <DocScrutinizer> sexual connotation aside: http://www.google.de/search?q=killing+kitten+video
2011-06-15 01:47 <wpwrak> rejon: here's your opportunity for a moment of greatness: clean up the language of http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN
2011-06-15 01:47 <wpwrak> rejon: ... such that it meets basic courtesy when using the written word :)
2011-06-15 01:48 <wpwrak> rejon: meanwhile, I'll do a shorter version of the technical side with only the minimum of underlying philosophy etc.
2011-06-15 01:56 <DocScrutinizer> awesome kitten-hands-up pic in that youtube vid
2011-06-15 02:03 <DocScrutinizer> http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.pennystore/joerg900.10129
2011-06-15 02:25 <rejon> great wpwrak 
2011-06-15 02:25 <rejon> how is FISL plans coming?
2011-06-15 02:25 <tuxbrain_away> please spread retweet, ident, facebook it, linkeding it, send to other related mailing lists, sumarizing spam it as far as your ethic can hold
2011-06-15 02:25 <tuxbrain_away> http://www.tuxbrain.com/en/content/free-and-open-replacement-wireless-lan
2011-06-15 02:27 <tuxbrain_away> in spanish
2011-06-15 02:27 <tuxbrain_away> http://www.tuxbrain.com/content/una-alternativa-libre-y-abierta-las-comunicaciones-wi-fi-wireless-lan
2011-06-15 02:29 <rejon> ok, doing
2011-06-15 02:29 <rejon> wpwrak, tuxbrain_away i have a question, what are the next steps beyond the sales side?
2011-06-15 02:30 <wpwrak> rejon: (fisl) haven't heard from them for a while. not sure if they silently dropped me.
2011-06-15 02:30 <rejon> no they haven't
2011-06-15 02:30 <rejon> they have hotel for you
2011-06-15 02:30 <rejon> they are super brazilian
2011-06-15 02:30 <rejon> in handling these things
2011-06-15 02:30 <rejon> i forgot about it a bit and then looked at the calendar today
2011-06-15 02:31 <wpwrak> rejon: oh, they even have organized a hotel. wow !
2011-06-15 02:38 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: great page !
2011-06-15 02:43 <rejon> just email them
2011-06-15 02:45 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: i can be rename, or technically moved should be called
2011-06-15 02:45 <kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: no copy and delete as you will lost editing history
2011-06-15 02:46 <kristianpaul> s/i/it
2011-06-15 02:46 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: if is okay for you can move it to Ben_WPAN_Background
2011-06-15 02:47 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: I'm well aware of that
2011-06-15 02:47 <DocScrutinizer> tuxbrain_away: already spread the word :-)
2011-06-15 02:48 <kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: he :-)
2011-06-15 02:48 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: 3 thoughts in there are with my contribution. ok, 1.5
2011-06-15 02:49 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: naw, let's keep the name for now. my page will be html-only anyway. with mediawiki, doing this would take forever
2011-06-15 02:49 <DocScrutinizer> I can't do different than just publish it :-)
2011-06-15 02:49 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: np, 
2011-06-15 02:49 <kristianpaul> wpwrak:  (html-only) thats cool
2011-06-15 02:50 <kristianpaul> even more if is tracked with git :-D
2011-06-15 02:50 <DocScrutinizer> aahyeah, bisect html
2011-06-15 02:51 <DocScrutinizer> why not
2011-06-15 02:54 <DocScrutinizer> :-)
2011-06-15 02:54 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (git) of course
2011-06-15 02:54 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: what's that curing thing? you drowned the atusb in resin?
2011-06-15 02:56 <DocScrutinizer> aah, and what's the roadmap for future porcessors/SoCs?
2011-06-15 02:58 <DocScrutinizer> (superbrazilian) sounds like the next now term in my vocbulary after "to tepco"
2011-06-15 02:58 <DocScrutinizer> new*
2011-06-15 03:02 <ds3> DocScrutinizer: what was factor pushing for an atmel chip?
2011-06-15 03:03 <DocScrutinizer> ask wolfgang, when he joins again. OR anybody else here, I'm the least involved person :-)
2011-06-15 03:03 <DocScrutinizer> "ask the cook, I'm just the waiter"
2011-06-15 03:04 <ds3> donno who's who... guess I'll lurk a bit
2011-06-15 03:04 <kristianpaul> thinks that was because gcc and hobbist comuminty awareness 
2011-06-15 03:04 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: werner almesberger
2011-06-15 03:04 <DocScrutinizer> wolfgang (spraul)
2011-06-15 03:04 <kristianpaul> also i heard that usb stack was well supported?
2011-06-15 03:04 <DocScrutinizer> tuxbrain_away: himself
2011-06-15 03:05 <kristianpaul> anyway, ask wpwrak indeed
2011-06-15 03:05 <kristianpaul> gn8
2011-06-15 03:05 <ds3> I see.
2011-06-15 03:06 <DocScrutinizer> sourcability another main factor for small projects
2011-06-15 03:06 <DocScrutinizer> incredibly hard to get <100k of some of the good big SoCs
2011-06-15 03:07 <ds3> I see. 
2011-06-15 03:08 <DocScrutinizer> when you order 10^7 you probably can get your custom made SoC, all included. For 1000 you have to take what you can get
2011-06-15 03:09 <ds3> I'd think for the SoC, ARM is a more natural choice then a MIPS
2011-06-15 03:09 <DocScrutinizer> depends
2011-06-15 03:10 <ds3> I like my mobile devices to have a long battery life but that might just be me
2011-06-15 03:10 <DocScrutinizer> but honestly I don't know what's been the design rationale for Ben
2011-06-15 03:10 <DocScrutinizer> oh, MIPS are rather great on power conservation, some of them
2011-06-15 03:11 <ds3> there has to be a reason why they don't show up often in low power devices...think the Alchemy was the only one that was sold for that
2011-06-15 03:12 <ds3> OTH, I could be wrong/skewed due to the large representation on the router SoC's
2011-06-15 03:15 <kristianpaul> ah,almost forgot i think woflgang suguested a SiGE chip for wpan, but that means a SDR implementation in the nanonote
2011-06-15 03:15 <kristianpaul> well,i think werner said this atmega rf chip also support sdr, so i think thats a plus too
2011-06-15 03:30 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: s/atben y atusb to enchance/atben and atusb to enhance/ ;-)
2011-06-15 03:33 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: btw, you should really indicate that your prices contain EU taxes. US visitors will have kittens when they see your prices.
2011-06-15 03:34 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: (taxes) but when simulating a buy the're droped
2011-06-15 03:34 <DocScrutinizer> frowns at 4.99 for http://service4handys.de/index.php/de/_/f-a002462 and the fact you can't do that at home. Got one, mod is hard
2011-06-15 03:35 <kristianpaul> they*
2011-06-15 03:37 <DocScrutinizer> nobody's going to simulate a buy of sth that's already way beyond
2011-06-15 03:38 <kristianpaul> hides
2011-06-15 03:39 <DocScrutinizer> disassembles that huge yellow plastic blob
2011-06-15 03:40 <DocScrutinizer> to reveal the 2 resistor secret inside, that makes the modem enter service mode when sensing the magic on BSI of battery
2011-06-15 03:42 <wpwrak> first draft: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/
2011-06-15 03:45 <kristianpaul> firt question for a coming FAQ, can i increase transmit power?
2011-06-15 03:45 <DocScrutinizer> MOAR POWER!
2011-06-15 03:46 <DocScrutinizer> anybody a good source for pogopins?
2011-06-15 03:46 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: yes, but you'd have to add 1-2 chips
2011-06-15 03:46 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: digi-key :) search for spring-loaded
2011-06-15 03:46 <DocScrutinizer> ta
2011-06-15 03:47 <kristianpaul> "While not an immediate project goal, it may be possible to write firmware for atusb that turns it into a transparent gateway for legacy operating systems and protocols."
2011-06-15 03:47 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (taxes) yes, once you've logged into the shop it knows where you live and gives you the non-EU price. nice idea, but confusing.
2011-06-15 03:47 <DocScrutinizer> while I can't do the yellow blob for 4.99, I still may drill additional holes in that one
2011-06-15 03:48 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: do you like the "legacy" ? :)
2011-06-15 03:48 <kristianpaul> well. is a bit confusing, but surelly is my crazy english
2011-06-15 03:49 <DocScrutinizer> anybody a clue abut what e.g logitech is using for their proprietary 2.4GHz wireless mouse stuff?
2011-06-15 03:49 <kristianpaul> but i get that include bill? :-)
2011-06-15 03:49 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: (curing) tuxbrain put sugru around an atusb: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Sugrued_atusb_01.jpg
2011-06-15 03:49 <DocScrutinizer> ~sict sugru
2011-06-15 03:49 <DocScrutinizer> ~dict sugru
2011-06-15 03:49 <DocScrutinizer> meh
2011-06-15 03:49 <kristianpaul> s/get/guess
2011-06-15 03:49 <DocScrutinizer> /invite infobot
2011-06-15 03:49 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: but it dampened RF a lot. now we need to see if that is because of the sugru per se or because of the solvent in the sugru.
2011-06-15 03:50 <DocScrutinizer> sugru sounds like sago here
2011-06-15 03:50 <wpwrak> ds3: (atmel chip) open documentation, availability, low price
2011-06-15 03:51 <kristianpaul> hum, Sige was bought by skyworks inc
2011-06-15 03:51 <DocScrutinizer> is that sugru some playdoo stuff?
2011-06-15 03:51 <DocScrutinizer> never heard about it
2011-06-15 03:52 <wpwrak> ds3: (that's for the transceiver) for the MCU: mainly popularity in the community. i had a perfectly working design based on silab's 8051 chips before. but 8051 isn't quite as popular as avr.
2011-06-15 03:52 <DocScrutinizer> WUT?
2011-06-15 03:52 <DocScrutinizer> 8051 is BASIC
2011-06-15 03:52 <kristianpaul> still like PICs ;-)
2011-06-15 03:52 <DocScrutinizer> uaergh
2011-06-15 03:53 <kristianpaul> i never had a 80xx btw, so :-)
2011-06-15 03:54 <DocScrutinizer> get an atmel 89c1051 or sth like that
2011-06-15 03:54 <DocScrutinizer> awesome
2011-06-15 03:55 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (sdr) no, the at86rf23x don't do sdr. afaik, sdr is still big and high-power (well, compared to ben-wpan. you don't need to get a whole USRP, but still ;-)
2011-06-15 03:55 <DocScrutinizer> 20pin DIL, like 3 external components, GPIO can drive 16mA+ each
2011-06-15 03:55 <DocScrutinizer> for instance
2011-06-15 03:55 <DocScrutinizer> of course they have other formfactors and chip flavours as well
2011-06-15 03:57 <kristianpaul> atmel still not very widespread on my country, so, well i can run navre on the milkymist at least ;)
2011-06-15 03:59 <kristianpaul> oh right, namuru core adaptation for milkymist CSR here we go :-)
2011-06-15 03:59 <DocScrutinizer> there are exactly 2 things I hate til hell freezes over; assembling a device and then noticing you forgot battery, and soldering a plug to a cable and "duh the friggin hood"
2011-06-15 03:59 <kristianpaul> for now just one correlator, as seem with 12 it will eat 20k LE
2011-06-15 04:00 <wpwrak> ah, firmware ...
2011-06-15 04:01 <kristianpaul> ha, looks this http://www.skyworksinc.com/Products.aspx?CategoryID=62
2011-06-15 04:02 <kristianpaul> nah,datasheets looks poor
2011-06-15 04:02 <kristianpaul> any way, gn8
2011-06-15 04:03 <DocScrutinizer> wonders why speedevil isn't here - also a GPS hacker
2011-06-15 04:04 <wpwrak> any comments on my overview page ?
2011-06-15 04:04 <DocScrutinizer> urlrlrlr
2011-06-15 04:04 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: still at http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/
2011-06-15 04:07 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: unify orthography: seems Wolfgang calls then AtUSB and AtBEN
2011-06-15 04:08 <wpwrak> i usually call them atben, sometimes ATBEN, but i'm trying to shake that latter habit
2011-06-15 04:08 <wpwrak> not sure where wolfgang got the AtBEN from :)
2011-06-15 04:10 <DocScrutinizer> please agree on one writing _now_
2011-06-15 04:11 <DocScrutinizer> ~spell homebrewn
2011-06-15 04:11 <wpwrak> i agree with "atben" and "atusb" :) feel free to capitalize it or not at the beginning of a sentence.
2011-06-15 04:12 <DocScrutinizer> nah, first of all I like to get topic right
2011-06-15 04:13 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: "homebrewn" should be fine. it's semi-jargon.
2011-06-15 04:13 <DocScrutinizer> you might want to explain if it's possible to use two atusb together, without Ben
2011-06-15 04:15 <DocScrutinizer> even have 'networks' with multiple atusb
2011-06-15 04:16 <DocScrutinizer> it's not entirely clear if the hw supports it
2011-06-15 04:18 <wpwrak> yeah, that seems to be a bit of a FAQ
2011-06-15 04:18 <wpwrak> i'm also adding a warning that it's not SDIO
2011-06-15 04:19 <DocScrutinizer> errr?
2011-06-15 04:19 <wpwrak> it's bit-banged SPI
2011-06-15 04:19 <wpwrak> plus few control signals
2011-06-15 04:20 <DocScrutinizer> ah, whatever that might explain to unbiased readers
2011-06-15 04:20 <wpwrak> no MMC/SD/SDIO protocol
2011-06-15 04:20 <SpeedEvil> Is there a compelling reason you can't bitbang SDIO?
2011-06-15 04:20 <SpeedEvil> (other than the obvious performance and lack of drivers issue)
2011-06-15 04:20 <DocScrutinizer> hi SpeedEvil :-D
2011-06-15 04:20 <SpeedEvil> hi
2011-06-15 04:21 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: bit-bang -> SDIO peripheral works just fine (been there, done that ;-). but SDIO host -> on-SDIO peripheral won't work
2011-06-15 04:21 <SpeedEvil> I'm pondering doing the reverse - making a not-SD card to goin a (micro)SD slot
2011-06-15 04:21 <SpeedEvil> And be driven by bit-bang
2011-06-15 04:21 <SpeedEvil> (compass for n900)
2011-06-15 04:21 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: that is, unless you can convince the host to give you access to plain GPIOs
2011-06-15 04:21 <SpeedEvil> True. At least on the n900, you can.
2011-06-15 04:23 <DocScrutinizer> SpeedEvil: there's been a mentioning of correlators some minutes up in backscroll
2011-06-15 04:23 <SpeedEvil> hmm
2011-06-15 04:23 <DocScrutinizer> thought this might be of some interest for you
2011-06-15 04:23 <SpeedEvil> My client lacks backscroll like that. :)
2011-06-15 04:23 <DocScrutinizer> we got chanlog
2011-06-15 04:24 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-06-15 05:59:25] <kristianpaul> for now just one correlator, as seem with 12 it will eat 20k LE
2011-06-15 04:25 <SpeedEvil> LE?
2011-06-15 04:25 <DocScrutinizer> (milymist with FPGA, aiui)
2011-06-15 04:26 <DocScrutinizer> milkymist even
2011-06-15 04:26 <SpeedEvil> Ideally you want a couple of thousand correlators per sat.
2011-06-15 04:26 <SpeedEvil> But...
2011-06-15 04:26 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-06-15 05:59:03] <kristianpaul> oh right, namuru core adaptation for milkymist CSR here we go :-)
2011-06-15 04:26 <DocScrutinizer> btw that's been about all
2011-06-15 04:27 <SpeedEvil> I had some GPS proto-code-diagrams that looked sort-of-plausible to do on a STM32/70MHz
2011-06-15 04:27 <DocScrutinizer> ping him if you're interested
2011-06-15 04:27 <SpeedEvil> Decoding bitstream from a GPS chip like maxim's http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/3447
2011-06-15 04:27 <SpeedEvil> Nasty hand-rolled assembler code.
2011-06-15 04:28 <SpeedEvil> And given you can now get GPS modules at ~$5 that output NMEA...
2011-06-15 04:29 <DocScrutinizer> sorry, reconnect
2011-06-15 04:30 <DocScrutinizer> assembler was last
2011-06-15 04:30 <SpeedEvil>  And given you can now get GPS modules at ~$5 that output NMEA...
2011-06-15 04:30 <SpeedEvil> At least you need something that can take a 18mbits/s bitstream and DMA it
2011-06-15 04:30 <SpeedEvil> And then you process it.
2011-06-15 04:30 <ds3> who has GPS modules for $5?
2011-06-15 04:30 <DocScrutinizer> indeed, just interesting for special development
2011-06-15 04:31 <SpeedEvil> Bitsliced DES is interesting
2011-06-15 04:31 <SpeedEvil> http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/423767224-gps-module-SKG11B-12-12-4mm-the-smallest-dimension-wholesalers.html
2011-06-15 04:31 <wpwrak> added a compatibility section: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/
2011-06-15 04:32 <SpeedEvil> That was one I happened to have on bookmarks, it's not the cheapest out there.
2011-06-15 04:34 <ds3> that isn't exactly useable
2011-06-15 04:34 <ds3> it lacks an antenna
2011-06-15 04:34 <SpeedEvil> Well - yes.
2011-06-15 04:35 <SpeedEvil> I don't know the parameters that were wanted.
2011-06-15 04:35 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: i think kristianpaul's chip is a bit slower. 8 Mbps or such.hmm, can't find the data sheets :-(
2011-06-15 04:35 <SpeedEvil> There are various sorts - you can trade bit-depth for datarate
2011-06-15 04:36 <SpeedEvil> If you've got an 18MHz sample of the IF, or a 8MHz at 3 bits, it's more or less similar.
2011-06-15 04:36 <SpeedEvil> 2 bits
2011-06-15 04:47 <wpwrak> rejon: how's the style cleanup going ?
2011-06-15 04:49 <rejon> wpwrak, great to get a big picture up top on that article
2011-06-15 04:50 <rejon> wpwrak, looking at now
2011-06-15 04:55 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: web/: Ben-WPAN overview page http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ea7103e
2011-06-15 05:00 <wpwrak> rejon: (progress) great !
2011-06-15 05:01 <wpwrak> any last changes before i hit [Submit] on /. ? :)
2011-06-15 05:01 <rejon> yeah, i'm scanning
2011-06-15 05:01 <rejon> almost done
2011-06-15 05:01 <DocScrutinizer> haha
2011-06-15 05:02 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: web/Makefile: also upload the ~800 pixels images http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/394ca56
2011-06-15 05:08 <wpwrak> huh. irc reset. how odd.
2011-06-15 05:09 <SpeedEvil> (06:07:27 AM) wpwrak left the room (quit: Read error: Operation timed out).
2011-06-15 05:10 <DocScrutinizer> irc / freenode is sick today. See mohammad* in #maemo. Suddenly an alter ego popped up from "nowhere"
2011-06-15 05:11 <DocScrutinizer> netsplits as well, which might have made that ZNC reconnect and thus re-register mohammad-
2011-06-15 05:12 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: that's a lie ! i didn't even leave my chair in the last few minutes :)
2011-06-15 05:12 <whitequark> wpwrak: maybe that was an office chair, one of these on small wheels?
2011-06-15 05:14 <wpwrak> whitequark: hmm, it has wheels. kinda tricky to get though the door with it, though. and the path there contains some obstacles as well :)
2011-06-15 05:19 <rejon> tuxbrain_away, 
2011-06-15 05:19 <rejon> oi
2011-06-15 05:19 <rejon> aren't these available?
2011-06-15 05:20 <rejon> wpwrak, this needs an update i believe: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN#Progress
2011-06-15 05:21 <wpwrak> (available) what ?
2011-06-15 05:21 <rejon> nm
2011-06-15 05:21 <rejon> i'm fixing
2011-06-15 05:21 <tuxbrain_away> rejon : ?
2011-06-15 05:22 <rejon> tuxbrain_away, "Also, a lot of software work still needs to be done. The driver level code for 802.15.4 has been demo'd. A production test program is working which verifies that a board is not severly compromised.
2011-06-15 05:22 <rejon> There are a small number of programs to send and receive data. However, there's still a lot to do in order to have a useable 6LoWpan stack."
2011-06-15 05:22 <rejon> is that accurate still?
2011-06-15 05:23 <wpwrak> yes
2011-06-15 05:24 <wpwrak> what we have at the moment is a very basic IEEE 802.15.4 stack in the kernel. it lacks things like CSMA and ACKs, let alone encryption. so it's really *very* basic.
2011-06-15 05:25 <wpwrak> 6LoWPAN code has been ported over on one or two occasions, but that's out of date now and was considered defective back then. so this needs another effort.
2011-06-15 05:25 <rejon> wpwrak, how are these tasks tracked?
2011-06-15 05:25 <rejon> how can people get involved?
2011-06-15 05:25 <rejon> (after buying one of course :)
2011-06-15 05:25 <wpwrak> the place to go should (still) be the linux-zigbee list
2011-06-15 05:25 <rejon> no i mean on this project
2011-06-15 05:25 <wpwrak> it's very quiet there, though
2011-06-15 05:26 <wpwrak> ah, our mailing list ?
2011-06-15 05:26 <rejon> so all the tasks are in your brain you are saying?
2011-06-15 05:26 <wpwrak> see the bottom of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/
2011-06-15 05:27 <wpwrak> i actually spelled them out there :) well, not the details
2011-06-15 05:27 <wpwrak> the 6lowpan stack isn't qi-hw specific. so people who want to play with that should go to linux-zigbee
2011-06-15 05:27 <wpwrak> or, better, find some sponsoring for me, and i'll be glad to solve that little problem ;-)
2011-06-15 05:28 <rejon> yeah, that is what i'm getting at
2011-06-15 05:28 <rejon> wpwrak, i want to know the problems left and the next steps
2011-06-15 05:28 <rejon> do you want to tell me now, or add to the page?
2011-06-15 05:29 <wpwrak> my plan for now is to first clean up the infrastructure that's already in the kernel
2011-06-15 05:29 <wpwrak> starting with the at86rf230/231 driver (which doesn't support atusb yet, only atben)
2011-06-15 05:30 <wpwrak> then tackle the IEEE 802.15.4 protocol stack until it works properly. that should give us decent dirtpan performance
2011-06-15 05:31 <wpwrak> 6lowpan is less certain. by the time i'm done with dirtpan working well, i should find me some real work. so i don't know it i'll have much time to work with 6lowpan.
2011-06-15 05:33 <wpwrak> what i'll do is contact atmel and see if they're interested in sponsoring such an effort, but i don't really expect this to lead anywhere
2011-06-15 05:34 <rejon> yeah, that atmel thing will have to be handled well so they don't get their hooks into it
2011-06-15 05:34 <rejon> wpwrak, i have another source that is interested too
2011-06-15 05:34 <rejon> i will follow up with
2011-06-15 05:34 <rejon> wpwrak, tuxbrain_away what about targets?
2011-06-15 05:34 <rejon> just send and see?
2011-06-15 05:35 <wpwrak> targets ?
2011-06-15 05:35 <rejon> i mean target market?
2011-06-15 05:35 <rejon> just hackers for now?
2011-06-15 05:35 <rejon> also, is there a case for the exposed circuitry?
2011-06-15 05:36 <wpwrak> (market) i think at the moment it's mainly of interest to the ben-owning community. i don't know about the ieee 802.15.4-centric market. it may be huge, but i don't know if these products are of interest to them.
2011-06-15 05:37 <wpwrak> no case yet. that's still under investigation.
2011-06-15 05:37 <rejon> ok great
2011-06-15 05:37 <rejon> how many did you guys make?
2011-06-15 05:39 <wpwrak> tuxbrain put sugru on an atusb but it dampened the signal considerably. then someone got his gadgets for a photo session and we have to wait for them to return before we can see if curing improved the sugru's RF transparency
2011-06-15 05:40 <wpwrak> i think something like 120 atusb and 135 atben. 3 atusb didn't work. all the atbens passed testing.
2011-06-15 05:40 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away could confirm the exact numbers.
2011-06-15 05:42 <rejon> wpwrak, what about hardware improvements?
2011-06-15 05:43 <rejon> anything off the top of your head?
2011-06-15 05:43 <rejon> beyond the case
2011-06-15 05:43 <tuxbrain_away> rejon let me elaborate later on, but until we have a case defined and the software is not fully plug and play and atusb is not supported our main target is hackers and NN owners, then well let me elaboorate and alse will add to the study the reation of this "for hacker" releases
2011-06-15 05:44 <wpwrak> nothing that needs fixing immediately. one thing that's completely missing is certification. that may or may need hw changes.
2011-06-15 05:44 <rejon> great
2011-06-15 05:45 <wpwrak> the boards are a little tweakable: 1) you can make a one-way modification to add an U.FL connector (not for the faint of heart, but doable) 2) there is an unpopulated capacitor and a 0R resistor that can be used/changed for RF tuning.
2011-06-15 05:46 <wpwrak> besides that, i don't see any urgent need for hw changes. one could think of adding an RF amplifier, to extend the range. but that's significant new work (~2 more chips, and so on)
2011-06-15 05:47 <wpwrak> also, the transceiver supports antenna diversity, which could be interesting
2011-06-15 05:48 <wpwrak> meanwhile, there's also one competing chip that could be interesting. that one an internal balun, reducing the component count. but of course, totally incompatible in terms of layout and low-level driver.
2011-06-15 05:49 <rejon> ok, great
2011-06-15 05:49 <wpwrak> that's the sort of things to consider if tuxbrain gets a order for 100k+ units :)
2011-06-15 05:49 <rejon> excellent
2011-06-15 05:49 <rejon> added http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN#Future 
2011-06-15 05:49 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: wouldn't you like to sand, flash, and test 100k+ units ? ;-))
2011-06-15 05:49 <rejon> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN#HOWTO_Get_Involved
2011-06-15 05:49 <rejon> and http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN#Outcomes
2011-06-15 05:50 <rejon> and cleaned up the whole page, and added TOC
2011-06-15 05:50 <wpwrak> oh dear, direct irc quotes ;-)
2011-06-15 05:51 <rejon> i cleaned them up
2011-06-15 05:52 <rejon> wpwrak, tuxbrain_away this is some badass shit!
2011-06-15 05:52 <rejon> like totally perked me up
2011-06-15 05:52 <rejon> great work dudez
2011-06-15 05:52 <rejon> totally inspiring!
2011-06-15 05:53 <wpwrak> thanks :)
2011-06-15 05:53 <rejon> i gotta cop me some in brazil
2011-06-15 05:54 <tuxbrain_away> I have modified this due NN doesn't have USB host :P Until we have a case defined, the software is fully plug-and-play and atusb is supported on kernel main line, the market for the Ben WPAN units is hackers and Nanonote owners. 
2011-06-15 05:54 <rejon> cool tuxbrain_away i already fixed
2011-06-15 05:57 <tuxbrain_away> regarding certification, when teh moment comes I have two colaborator on universities that can do so
2011-06-15 05:57 <wpwrak> rejon: page looks a lot better now. thanks !
2011-06-15 05:57 <tuxbrain_away> yeah thanks rejon :)
2011-06-15 05:57 <rejon> you guys did the hard work!
2011-06-15 05:57 <wpwrak> we can merge the remaining bits later
2011-06-15 05:58 <rejon> tuxbrain_away, wpwrak i started to rev up the press engine, but thinking might be better for batch 2
2011-06-15 05:58 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (university resources) always good to have :)
2011-06-15 05:58 <rejon> but come on, companies come out with vacuous announcements without products EVERYDAY
2011-06-15 05:58 <rejon> nerd channels better imo
2011-06-15 05:58 <wpwrak> rejon: yeah, we should release a roadmap with Ya and 2-3 successors firmly announced right now. wolfspraul ? ;-)
2011-06-15 05:59 <tuxbrain_away> to consider this a real sucess I have to get rid of this first batch by the end of the month :)
2011-06-15 05:59 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: two weeks ? wow :)
2011-06-15 06:01 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: btw, do you still have the sugru device or is it among the ones you lent to that other guy ?
2011-06-15 06:01 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: because, if you still have it, you can just test with another atusb. the tests don't have to be atben-atusb
2011-06-15 06:02 <rejon> wpwrak, you know the drill ;)
2011-06-15 06:04 <rejon> ok, added pictures: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN
2011-06-15 06:04 <tuxbrain_away> wpwrak: ok I will try this later, just point me what will be the order, it can be done in same computer?
2011-06-15 06:07 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: yes. you need to specify the path to the USB device. digging out the posting ...
2011-06-15 06:10 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: can you make sense of what i wrote here ? http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-April/007715.html
2011-06-15 06:11 <wpwrak> the command would simply be: atrf-path -g usb:... usb:... 10
2011-06-15 06:12 <wpwrak> you can debug the usb:... with  atrf-id -d usb:... try until it works ;-)
2011-06-15 06:13 <wpwrak> rejon: (pics) nice !
2011-06-15 06:13 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: btw, i really like http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/thumb/8/8b/Atben_atusb_prod_10.jpg/800px-Atben_atusb_prod_10.jpg
2011-06-15 06:15 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain_away: if you have a slashdot account, vote up David's submission at http://slashdot.org/submission/1648862/A-Free-and-Open-Replacement-for-Wireless-LAN
2011-06-15 06:15 <wolfspraul> maybe the voting helps, maybe not :-)
2011-06-15 06:17 <rejon> is there some policy against asking people to help vote it up publicly?
2011-06-15 06:23 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: web/: added zoomed-in view of atusb in action http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7e1b47b
2011-06-15 06:23 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: web/index.html: removed duplicate IMG tag http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/cce7810
2011-06-15 06:25 <wpwrak> rejon: don't ask, don't tell ;-)
2011-06-15 06:33 <wolfspraul> rejon: why should there be such a policy?
2011-06-15 06:34 <wolfspraul> the opposite is right, if you want your friends to vote it up you should do so publicly
2011-06-15 06:51 <qi-bot> The build has FAILED, see log here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.trunk-full_system-06142011-0345/
2011-06-15 07:54 <rejon> ok wolfspraul tuxbrain_away wpwrak posted up on fab blog and on qihardware twitter and identica
2011-06-15 08:03 <wolfspraul> rejon: nice!
2011-06-15 08:06 <rejon> brings me out of microblogging retirement...i setup ping.fm account for qi too
2011-06-15 08:06 <rejon> ok, night dudez
2011-06-15 10:32 <kyak> tuxbrain_away: any update about shipment cost to Russia?
2011-06-15 11:06 <dvdk> ok, the /. article failed
2011-06-15 11:07 <dvdk> next try: ycombinator.com.  you can upvote the article by pressing the uparrow sign: http://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=dvdkhlng
2011-06-15 11:08 <lekernel> dvdk, sometimes it takes a few days
2011-06-15 11:22 <wolfspraul> dvdk: how do you know that it failed?
2011-06-15 11:23 <dvdk> lekernel: (/.) but it's already invisible on slashdot.org/recent even when going far, far  back. thought /. editors would only look at /recent. don't know for sure, though
2011-06-15 11:24 <wolfspraul> we wait a week then repost? :-)
2011-06-15 11:27 <dvdk> wolfspraul: but different article next time.  already building one up in my head.
2011-06-15 11:27 <dvdk> maybe wait 2 weeks.  what's the half like of memory in the average /. editor?
2011-06-15 11:45 <wolfspraul> dvdk: thinking about the /. editors, I cannot imagine that they just pick articles out of the incoming flow of posts
2011-06-15 11:46 <wolfspraul> I would do it in a multi-layer system where I first mark good posts, then later review them again, possible throwing out some more, and finally selecting based for inclusion on the frontpage so that the flow of articles on the frontpage is interesting
2011-06-15 11:46 <wolfspraul> that would mean - it could very well still pop up after a few days, like lekernel said. complete guess of course :-)
2011-06-15 11:47 <wolfspraul> they have to worry about the readability of the frontpage, a good mix of articles in different categories, etc.
2011-06-15 11:47 <wolfspraul> we will know soon :-)
2011-06-15 11:51 <wpwrak> my guess would be a ~24 h-ish timeout on /. after that, they may consider it not bleeding edge enough. maybe a few hours more.
2011-06-15 11:53 <jow_laptop> slashdots quality is declining rapidly
2011-06-15 11:53 <jow_laptop> also many dupes lately
2011-06-15 11:53 <jow_laptop> and articles pointing to crappy blog articles
2011-06-15 11:53 <jow_laptop> which seem to be solely made to get ad revenue
2011-06-15 11:53 <jow_laptop> typos, wrong summaries
2011-06-15 11:54 <jow_laptop> so I don't think the editors actually do editing anymore
2011-06-15 11:55 <lekernel> wpwrak, my milkymist article took 2 days to get through
2011-06-15 12:05 <lekernel> dvdk, "underdog" ...hahahaha
2011-06-15 12:08 <wpwrak> lekernel: yeah, right. so there's still hope for when they hit a slow spell ;-)
2011-06-15 12:09 <lekernel> maybe they're underdogs but:
2011-06-15 12:09 <lekernel> they have better technology (mmu, asic, etc.)
2011-06-15 12:10 <lekernel> they have better compilers and linux port, contributed by open source people (hahahahaha) compared to milkymist linux
2011-06-15 12:10 <lekernel> and they have much larger market share, publicity, etc.
2011-06-15 12:10 <lekernel> not bad for a underdog, he
2011-06-15 12:11 <wpwrak> dvdk: don't you want to use the new summary page at link target ?
2011-06-15 12:11 <wpwrak> dvdk: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/
2011-06-15 12:13 <wpwrak> dvdk: also, it would be good to mention that tuxbrain's prices are with EU taxes, which do no apply to non-EU shipments. since you're not the merchant, you can in fact just give the price without tax and mention that it is without taxes.
2011-06-15 12:13 <wpwrak> dvdk: (tuxbrain, being in the EU, may be legally obliged to show his prices with tax)
2011-06-15 12:14 <tuxbrain_away> wpwrak connecting atben to arduio pins directly can work in some way?
2011-06-15 12:14 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: if you connect every pin, yes.
2011-06-15 12:15 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: make a little PCB with an uSD holder that connects to a cable for 100 mil headers, and there you are
2011-06-15 12:16 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: just make sure you really have power on VDD and that you can switch it on and off. the board should draw about 15-20 mA. so you want this proper power, not just a GPIO
2011-06-15 12:17 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: if you don't have switchable power, add a transistor. BJT or FET, either ought to work fine
2011-06-15 12:21 <tuxbrain_away> arduino pins can give 40mA per pin so I think there will be no problem
2011-06-15 12:22 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: no idea how that behaves. don't forget that the voltage can drop quite a bit if you really load these pins. so you'd get voltage variations that are synchronized with the transceiver activity.
2011-06-15 12:23 <tuxbrain_away> also instead of pcb we can adapt an uSD to SD adapter
2011-06-15 12:25 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (voltage) e.g, if you load a pin with 15 mA at room temperature, the voltage will drop by about one third. you're still above the transceiver's minimum supply voltage (1.8 V), but you're putting quite a bit of stress on the regulators
2011-06-15 12:25 <tuxbrain_away> will atben work at 5V?
2011-06-15 12:27 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: of course not. nothing built since humans came down from the trees works with 5 V ;-)
2011-06-15 12:27 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (uSD to SD) if you have an SD slot or an SD-to-GPIOs adapter, why not
2011-06-15 12:28 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (SD) the question is whether you have a full SD slot :) the two schematics you showed me didn't
2011-06-15 14:05 <kristianpaul> SpeedEvil: hi
2011-06-15 14:05 <SpeedEvil> hi
2011-06-15 14:05 <kristianpaul> sorry i was sleeping at the time you write my nick 
2011-06-15 14:05 <kristianpaul> SpeedEvil: about the correlators, sure i'll implement all 12 as soon as i managed to use at least one
2011-06-15 14:06 <kristianpaul> use and sinthesize :-)
2011-06-15 14:06 <kristianpaul> the maxim chip looks interesting too
2011-06-15 14:06 <SpeedEvil> in FPGA?
2011-06-15 14:06 <kristianpaul> yes
2011-06-15 14:06 <SpeedEvil> In principle, you can do it on nanonote class hw
2011-06-15 14:06 <SpeedEvil> in software
2011-06-15 14:06 <kristianpaul> sure
2011-06-15 14:06 <SpeedEvil> but it's a lot of assembler
2011-06-15 14:06 <kristianpaul> i know, and thats a goal, for later
2011-06-15 14:07 <SpeedEvil> What's your general correlator architecture you're thinking of?
2011-06-15 14:07 <kristianpaul> gps receiver and some logic glue in a cpld, but may be not needed as seems dma capabillities of the SD-like slot are not so bad for sampling beyond 10Mhz..
2011-06-15 14:08 <kristianpaul> SpeedEvil: is called namuru
2011-06-15 14:08 <SpeedEvil> 'GPS reciever' ?
2011-06-15 14:08 <kristianpaul> sorry
2011-06-15 14:08 <kristianpaul> gps frontend*
2011-06-15 14:08 <SpeedEvil> What bits of architecture?
2011-06-15 14:08 <SpeedEvil> I mean in the CPLD
2011-06-15 14:08 <SpeedEvil> Or are you just meaning to go serial->parallel-SD-like 
2011-06-15 14:09 <SpeedEvil> Jitter is annoying - you absolutely can't lose a sample without knowing about it
2011-06-15 14:10 <kristianpaul> namuru is implementation of a zarlink gps correlator, gp2021 think
2011-06-15 14:13 <kristianpaul> (Jitter) hum well,the signal showed in the logic analizer looks sane it think
2011-06-15 14:13 <SpeedEvil> Ah - right
2011-06-15 14:13 <kristianpaul> serial to parallel aprouch in the cpld, yes, as the sampling data is synced in a sort of nibble
2011-06-15 14:13 <SpeedEvil> Ah - I misread.
2011-06-15 14:14 <kristianpaul> but that for when thinking in another board for making nanonote a gps-receiver
2011-06-15 14:14 <kristianpaul> now i'm focused on making all this work in the fpga
2011-06-15 14:14 <SpeedEvil> If you're doiung it with a FPGA - it's proably pointless, compared to a GPS module for consumers.
2011-06-15 14:14 <kristianpaul> well, we like take some risks ;)
2011-06-15 14:14 <SpeedEvil> It's interesting from other aspects though.
2011-06-15 14:15 <kristianpaul> also i dont see too much performance in the nanonote for correlating (using FFT i guess) 12channels..
2011-06-15 14:15 <kristianpaul> and i dont want mess with asembler again..
2011-06-15 14:16 <kristianpaul> may be implement the correlator on a small cpld?
2011-06-15 14:16 <kristianpaul> or a spartan3?
2011-06-15 14:16 <kristianpaul> who knows..
2011-06-15 14:16 <SpeedEvil> I was basically assuming a fairly nasty approach borrowing from bit-sliced DES ideas.
2011-06-15 14:16 <kristianpaul> as i said at least 20k LE seems to be needed, well that was for an altera fpga
2011-06-15 14:16 <kristianpaul> DES?
2011-06-15 14:18 <SpeedEvil> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkindred/des/bitslice.html
2011-06-15 14:18 <kristianpaul> had you experience with maxim chip?
2011-06-15 14:18 <SpeedEvil> I have a sample - other than that no.
2011-06-15 14:18 <kristianpaul> as it is more like an "ADC" 
2011-06-15 14:18 <SpeedEvil> This was so far a paper excersize.
2011-06-15 14:18 <SpeedEvil> yes.
2011-06-15 14:19 <kristianpaul> sample  = EVB or just a chip?
2011-06-15 14:19 <SpeedEvil> It relies on you doing all the heavy lifting.
2011-06-15 14:19 <SpeedEvil> chip
2011-06-15 14:19 <kristianpaul> cause EVB costs ~500usd
2011-06-15 14:19 <kristianpaul> :/
2011-06-15 14:19 <kristianpaul> i already asked ;)
2011-06-15 14:19 <SpeedEvil> laurenceb over on #highaltitude has some logs of raw GPS signals from a similar device
2011-06-15 14:19 <kristianpaul> oh
2011-06-15 14:20 <SpeedEvil> And there are other poeple in that channel who have worked/stidued SDR GPS
2011-06-15 14:20 <kristianpaul> wich sdr?
2011-06-15 14:20 <kristianpaul> the one from CTAE?
2011-06-15 14:20 <kristianpaul> using scilab? fastgps?
2011-06-15 14:22 <SpeedEvil> I don't recall - it was something similar to the maxim chip.
2011-06-15 14:22 <SpeedEvil> A bit or two at a few MHz sampling hte IF
2011-06-15 14:22 <kristianpaul> one or two, not much difference it seems
2011-06-15 14:23 <kristianpaul> more if you are in a high altitude globe :D
2011-06-15 14:23 <kristianpaul> ballon*
2011-06-15 14:23 <SpeedEvil> Part of the interest is due to GPSs not dealing well with stuff. 
2011-06-15 14:24 <kristianpaul> he :)
2011-06-15 14:24 <SpeedEvil> For example - if you have an accellerometer on a rocket - you really want to feed that accellerometer into the core of teh position filter.
2011-06-15 14:29 <kristianpaul> i was told gps receiver stop working at some altitude, how that is true?
2011-06-15 14:30 <kristianpaul> i also was told, once reason was to avoid comercial closed-source gps receiver be put on rockers ;)
2011-06-15 14:30 <kristianpaul> rockets*
2011-06-15 14:41 <dvdk> wpwrak: no way to give an article to ycombinator, so i went for the announce list post, which is concise.  would be nice if the announce list post  linked to your excellent wpan page, but unfortunately we cannot edit it :)
2011-06-15 14:42 <dvdk> wolfspraul: i think slashdot.org/recent already implements the multi-layer system you describes.  this is why it's number of articles gets lesser and lesser the further you move into the past.  and benwpan-article was already dropped.
2011-06-15 14:44 <wpwrak> dvdk: (edit it) what, the announce list post or my page ?
2011-06-15 14:44 <dvdk> wpwrak: the next SD post is going to link to your new page.  maybe editors evaluate submissions for slashdottability and outright deny articles that link to mediawiki pages? d)
2011-06-15 14:44 <dvdk> :)
2011-06-15 14:45 <wpwrak> that would actually make a lot of sense ;-)
2011-06-15 14:45 <dvdk> wpwrak: the announce list post archive version
2011-06-15 14:46 <dvdk> did you hear: jane thinks she can just quit and walk out of the community. ;)
2011-06-15 14:46 <dvdk> let's just ignore any attempts at unsubscribing from the list :)
2011-06-15 14:47 <wpwrak> yeah. she didn't hear the clicking of the lock on those chains, did she :)
2011-06-15 14:47 <dvdk> lol
2011-06-15 14:51 <kristianpaul> really happy at #highaltitude
2011-06-15 14:51 <kristianpaul> thaknks for the info SpeedEvil !
2011-06-15 14:52 <lekernel> what's that?
2011-06-15 14:53 <wpwrak> drugs ? :)
2011-06-15 14:56 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: that's another channel?
2011-06-15 14:57 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: yup :-)
2011-06-15 14:57 <kristianpaul> very interesting one
2011-06-15 14:58 <kristianpaul> like hihg altitude baloon projects as well :-)
2011-06-15 14:58 <kristianpaul> balloon*
2011-06-15 14:58 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: better :-)
2011-06-15 15:09 <SpeedEvil> kristianpaul: It's not quite true. The COCOM/ITAR limit is it should not produce positions at over 60000 feet AND 1000 knots.
2011-06-15 15:09 <SpeedEvil> Some malfunction, and do OR
2011-06-15 15:10 <SpeedEvil> And some basically will take any excuse - slight signal fading - to not believe that they are not really 30Km in the air, and produce a solution on the ground.
2011-06-15 15:10 <lekernel> do we give a shit about the COCOM/ITAR limit?
2011-06-15 15:11 <SpeedEvil> The penalties are _really_ severe if you get found violating it.
2011-06-15 15:12 <lekernel> then this should be illegal? http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/index.html
2011-06-15 15:12 <lekernel> and who enforces that?
2011-06-15 15:12 <SpeedEvil> The next section in ITAR deals with satellite kick motors with enough impulse to drop reentry bodies on targets, the prior one deals with high speed cameras used for nuclear weapons development.
2011-06-15 15:12 <lekernel> sorry http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/navsats/theory.html
2011-06-15 15:13 <SpeedEvil> It's specifically hardware + software as a package
2011-06-15 15:14 <kristianpaul> how they enforce that :-)
2011-06-15 15:15 <SpeedEvil> Enforcement is a seperate question.
2011-06-15 15:15 <lekernel> it seems to be a US-only thing anyway, no?
2011-06-15 15:15 <SpeedEvil> No - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wassenaar_Arrangement
2011-06-15 15:17 <kristianpaul> yay i'm out !
2011-06-15 15:17 <kristianpaul> wee :-)
2011-06-15 15:17 <SpeedEvil> Reading the details are fascinating.
2011-06-15 15:17 <lekernel> that's again bureaucracy retardation/security theatre as its best, as if building a GPS was a difficult part in developing an ICBM
2011-06-15 15:17 <SpeedEvil> For example - why are 80GHz spectrum analysers controlled?
2011-06-15 15:17 <SpeedEvil> Back in 1980, a GPS was actually really quite hard to build.
2011-06-15 15:18 <lekernel> see link above, that (admittedly skilled) ham did it in 1991
2011-06-15 15:18 <lekernel> what is it with 80GHz spectrum analyzers?
2011-06-15 15:19 <SpeedEvil> They are controlled goods. 
2011-06-15 15:19 <lekernel> why?
2011-06-15 15:19 <SpeedEvil> I'm unsure why, but they are.
2011-06-15 15:19 <kristianpaul> hum?
2011-06-15 15:20 <lekernel> maybe the reason is just that the US government are control freaks. an amazing list of things are "controlled goods" to varying degrees; even the FPGAs that we use in MM
2011-06-15 15:21 <SpeedEvil> To some degree, yes. Though wasamar is _much_ more widespread than the US
2011-06-15 15:24 <lekernel> http://www2.rohde-schwarz.com/en/products/test_and_measurement/spectrum_analysis/FS-Z60_-Z75_-Z90_-Z110.html
2011-06-15 15:24 <lekernel> doesn't seem they are particularly hard to order (just probably very expensive)
2011-06-15 15:28 <lekernel> you can also try to hack a luxury car's cruise control radar
2011-06-15 15:28 <wpwrak> be afraid. be afraid. obey. be afraid. consume. be afraid. be afraid. don't see the fnords. be afraid. ... the concept sounds familiar ;-)
2011-06-15 15:29 <lekernel> actually I'll probably get that last option a try, when I get time (difficult) and money (those things are about 900¬)
2011-06-15 15:31 <lekernel> an USRP module above 70GHz from a car cruise control radar sounds exciting :)
2011-06-15 15:34 <wpwrak> hmm :)
2011-06-15 15:35 <SpeedEvil> I may have misremembered the exact frequency - it was 
2011-06-15 15:35 <SpeedEvil>             1."Signal analysers" having a 3 dB resolution bandwidth (RBW) exceeding 10 MHz anywhere within the frequency range exceeding 31.8 GHz but not exceeding 37.5 GHz;  
2011-06-15 15:35 <SpeedEvil> http://www.wassenaar.org/controllists/index.html - category 3
2011-06-15 15:36 <lekernel> luxury car cruise control radars have 76GHz up/down baseband converter chips on them
2011-06-15 15:37 <lekernel> hacking them shouldn't even be particularly hard - they have two PCB processes, one with the RF part with a high quality substrate and microsolders for the flip-chip 76GHz silicon
2011-06-15 15:37 <SpeedEvil> Some car stuff is controlled, and specifuically must stop functioning if you remove it drom the car
2011-06-15 15:37 <lekernel> and the other is a normal PCB with ADC/DAC, DSP and logic
2011-06-15 15:38 <SpeedEvil> I think that's IR though
2011-06-15 15:38 <lekernel> if you throw away the logic board and put an USRP instead, you should get something interesting :)
2011-06-15 15:38 <SpeedEvil> Speaking practically - there are many realms where increasing commodity hardware has obsoleted this.
2011-06-15 15:39 <SpeedEvil> For example - several of the best webcams pointed at the sky from disparate locations will get you accurate positions on those aircraft in near real-time.
2011-06-15 15:39 <lekernel> the major difficulty will be to figure out the pinouts of the connector between the two PCBs and the control commands for the RF chip
2011-06-15 15:39 <SpeedEvil> Not really.
2011-06-15 15:40 <SpeedEvil> The RF chip will be dumb
2011-06-15 15:40 <SpeedEvil> Logic in high frequency RF products is expensive.
2011-06-15 15:40 <lekernel> http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/RXN774x.pdf?folderId=db3a30431689f4420116a096e1db033e&fileId=db3a30431a5c32f2011aa5431f0f4d99
2011-06-15 15:41 <SpeedEvil> I guess it's not going to work very well on veroboard.
2011-06-15 15:41 <lekernel> the car cruise control radars' RF board just have that chip, a 12GHz reference oscillator for the PLL, and stripline antennas
2011-06-15 15:41 <lekernel> period :)
2011-06-15 15:41 <lekernel> sure, just take the complete RF board apart from a radar
2011-06-15 15:43 <lekernel> I wouldn't even be afraid of mounting the flip chip (there are companies who offer the service at an affordable price) but using the pre-made board is just easier and cheaper
2011-06-15 15:46 <lekernel> it would be nice to know what the real frequency range of those critters is
2011-06-15 15:46 <lekernel> the datasheet only says "for radar applications in the 76-77GHz range", but...
2011-06-15 15:58 <SpeedEvil> Get a friend in a scrapyard that deal with high end cat-d cars.
2011-06-15 17:45 <rejon> wpwrak, tuxbrain_away any uptake on the news?
2011-06-15 17:47 <kyak> http://old.nabble.com/Dropping-DirectFB-backend-from-GTK-3-td29430982.html
2011-06-15 17:48 <kyak> seems that we are stuck at gtk+-2.17
2011-06-15 17:49 <kyak> i wish i saw that message before i started some effort porting 2.24 only to see that it is (indeed) broken :)
2011-06-15 17:55 <roh> kyak: well.. if you maintain it they maybe dont drop it ;)
2011-06-15 17:56 <kyak> i wonder if it only the matter of a time that qt drops directfb support?
2011-06-15 17:56 <kyak> roh: maintain it? That's too much for me :) I barely made it build
2011-06-15 17:57 <kristianpaul> but gtk3 is not too bloated anyway for the ben?
2011-06-15 17:57 <kristianpaul> i tought the rule was stick on gtk1 btw ;)
2011-06-15 17:57 <whitequark> hm, another jz47xx device: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.3dnews.ru%2Fnews%2F612638%2F
2011-06-15 17:58 <kyak> gtk1 didn't have directfb support at all
2011-06-15 17:58 <kristianpaul> ah, true
2011-06-15 17:58 <kristianpaul> jlime uses it with X, sorry :-)
2011-06-15 17:58 <roh> kristianpaul: gtk1 is dead and thats good
2011-06-15 17:59 <kristianpaul> if the code is there well :-)
2011-06-15 18:03 <mth> whitequark: looks cool, but how do you know it's jz47xx?
2011-06-15 18:12 <kristianpaul> lol http://xkcd.com/912/
2011-06-15 18:50 <whitequark> mth: the screenshot
2011-06-15 18:50 <whitequark> it's the Ingenic's minios
2011-06-15 18:51 <whitequark> someone here on our russian list has asked chinese developers and they sent us sources, asking not to redistribute them
2011-06-15 19:13 <GNUtoo> kristianpaul, what if the info pages are not packaged?
2011-06-15 19:13 <GNUtoo> for instance in embedded systems mans are oftens not in the main package or not packaged
2011-06-15 19:35 <kristianpaul> indeed GNUtoo 
2011-06-15 19:36 <GNUtoo> imagine you're in that plane and someone comes out of the pilot cabin and ask if someone know the unix command line
2011-06-15 19:36 <GNUtoo> or the command line(not precising)
2011-06-15 19:37 <kristianpaul> :-D
2011-06-15 19:49 <rejon> GNUtoo, hahahha
2011-06-15 19:56 <mth> whitequark: do you know what resolution it has?
2011-06-15 19:56 <mth> if I could run OpenDingux on it, I might want to buy one
2011-06-15 19:57 <rejon> funny, that open hardware logo is a broken gear
2011-06-15 19:57 <rejon> hahaha
2011-06-15 20:08 <mth> ah, the ChinaVision page lists resolution as 480x320
2011-06-15 20:11 <wpwrak> rejon: /. hasn't taken it yet
2011-06-15 20:11 <rejon> wpwrak, i think the title is not very good
2011-06-15 20:11 <dvdk> kyak: hacked ASE to give it its own integrated mouse emulation.  want to give it a try?  key mapping described in the wiki http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications#Allegro_Sprite_Editor
2011-06-15 20:11 <rejon> needs more bitcoin
2011-06-15 20:11 <rejon> hahaha
2011-06-15 20:11 <rejon> title needs to be more explosive
2011-06-15 20:12 <dvdk> (wrt bitcoin) i'm sure slashdot editor insider trading is going on over there
2011-06-15 20:12 <rejon> wpwrak, another thing is to resubmit
2011-06-15 20:12 <rejon> you didn't syubmit that one right?
2011-06-15 20:14 <dvdk> wpwrak: /. article?  were can we read it?
2011-06-15 20:15 <wpwrak> rejon: (title) the whole announcement/PR thing was a bit rushed. no proper welcome page, confusing pricing, etc.
2011-06-15 20:16 <wpwrak> rejon: i'm not sure if tuxbrain has fixed the price information yet, or if he even considers doing so. if he does, then i'd want to wait for him to get this done before pushing again
2011-06-15 20:17 <rejon> wpwrak, more important to get hackers on and plan out for something that is more public facing
2011-06-15 20:17 <wpwrak> rejon: i.e., i don't think it helps if the boards appear 20% more expensive than they really are
2011-06-15 20:17 <rejon> wpwrak, yeah, that sucks
2011-06-15 20:18 <dvdk> wpwrak: let's not resubmit, just write up a new article with a different spin
2011-06-15 20:18 <wpwrak> dvdk: (atricle) i mean your submissions, and what they link to
2011-06-15 20:18 <dvdk> yes, just saw your comment attached to the earlier article
2011-06-15 20:18 <wpwrak> yes, might as well use the 2nd try to improve things
2011-06-15 20:20 <dvdk> going to edit one here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Slashdot-20110615-benwpan
2011-06-15 20:20 <rejon> yeah
2011-06-15 20:21 <dvdk> maybe submit again on a saturday around noon (utc), that's what was successfull last time
2011-06-15 20:21 <dvdk> unfortunately mediawiki is no multi-user parallel editor :/
2011-06-15 20:21 <dvdk> :)
2011-06-15 20:21 <rejon> i think fine now
2011-06-15 20:21 <rejon> or whenever tuxbrain_away gets those numbers up
2011-06-15 20:21 <rejon> the main thing is the title imo
2011-06-15 20:21 <rejon> something a bit more outrageous
2011-06-15 20:22 <rejon> how did EFF get all that press on freeing wireless though???
2011-06-15 20:23 <dvdk> maybe we should ping the EFF about our efforts?
2011-06-15 20:24 <rejon> dvdk, that is a good idea
2011-06-15 20:25 <dvdk> also maybe FSF?
2011-06-15 20:25 <rejon> sure dvdk 
2011-06-15 20:25 <rejon> asking who is there now at eff
2011-06-15 20:26 <rejon> http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/04/28/150241/EFF-Advocates-Leaving-Wireless-Routers-Open
2011-06-15 20:26 <wpwrak> would also be nice if we could sneak in a word somewhere (doesn't have to be the article per se - could be the overview page) that sonsorship would be rather welcome
2011-06-15 20:27 <rejon> https://www.eff.org/about/staff/peter-eckersley
2011-06-15 20:27 <rejon> wpwrak, totally
2011-06-15 20:27 <rejon> goal of this is to get money
2011-06-15 20:27 <rejon> make sales
2011-06-15 20:27 <wpwrak> (sponsorship) IEEE 802.15.4 may strike a chord where the Ben didn't. that "internet of things" is more en vogue these days :)
2011-06-15 20:28 <rejon> oh, i know that guy who wrote that EFF article
2011-06-15 20:28 <rejon> i'm emailing him
2011-06-15 20:28 <wpwrak> rejon: i don't quite subscribe to wolfgang's approach of financing the project through sales. i think the ramp-up is too slow for that. we should emphasize that we're creating a lot of value outside the traditional product-to-market chain, namely an open process, free tools, etc.
2011-06-15 20:30 <rejon> wpwrak, i hear you
2011-06-15 20:30 <rejon> anyway we can get money to support
2011-06-15 20:30 <rejon> development
2011-06-15 20:30 <wpwrak> rejon: (eff getting coverage) ah, but it's a transgression. everybody *loves* to read about transgressions ;-)
2011-06-15 20:30 <rejon> ok emailing you wpwrak tuxbrain_away to that eff guy...please don't over hammer him
2011-06-15 20:30 <rejon> we'll see what he says
2011-06-15 20:31 <rejon> wolfspraul doesn't hammer people i intro as much now like he used too
2011-06-15 20:31 <rejon> hahaha
2011-06-15 20:31 <wpwrak> brings the hammer collection from the workshop ;-)
2011-06-15 20:32 <kristianpaul> rejon: what is that symbol in the network ring from the freedom stack in the home page of qi-hw.com ?
2011-06-15 20:32 <wpwrak> rejon: yeah, i think wolfgang has pretty much withdrawn from seeking external support
2011-06-15 20:32 <rejon> the worst one was an email thread i was having with eben moglen that ended in a huge slamfest to him
2011-06-15 20:32 <kristianpaul> i'm guessing guess you updated the pic :-)
2011-06-15 20:32 <rejon> but, to his credit, i had meeting with moglen at CC a while back and he said to me: "say hi to wolfgang for me.."
2011-06-15 20:32 <rejon> that guy has amazing memory
2011-06-15 20:33 <rejon> i showed him the mm1 board i just got that day
2011-06-15 20:33 <rejon> kristianpaul, which symbol?
2011-06-15 20:33 <rejon> the qi logo i want to replace?
2011-06-15 20:33 <rejon> or the new http://autonomo.us logo?
2011-06-15 20:33 <rejon> wpwrak, yeah, i'm all ears...i'll followup on any and all money/grant leads
2011-06-15 20:33 <rejon> part of the reason for that Ben-WPAN page is to help that
2011-06-15 20:34 <rejon> need more pages like that to detail how its innovation, and how people can get involved
2011-06-15 20:34 <kristianpaul> rejon: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Freedom-stack-sphere.svg
2011-06-15 20:34 <kristianpaul> rejon: the thing with the "A"
2011-06-15 20:35 <kristianpaul> ah, you just said it :-)
2011-06-15 20:35 <rejon> yeah, that is autonomous
2011-06-15 20:35 <rejon> yeah, that effort is not that far along
2011-06-15 20:35 <kristianpaul> i dint knew that autonomous logo
2011-06-15 20:35 <rejon> i think web projects and community are the wimpiest
2011-06-15 20:36 <rejon> kristianpaul, yeah, i had that created a long time ago, but didn't get it applied until we wrestled that server from mako
2011-06-15 20:36 <rejon> hahaha
2011-06-15 20:36 <rejon> autonomous is the least known project unfortunately
2011-06-15 20:36 <rejon> anyway, ok, emailing eff dude
2011-06-15 20:37 <kristianpaul> may be eff can sponsor wpwrak to develop the sdr implementation  of "Wifi" ;-)
2011-06-15 20:39 <rejon> lets see!
2011-06-15 20:40 <rejon> i know john perry barlow and mitch kapor, but those guys are in the clouds often
2011-06-15 20:40 <rejon> i'll email them
2011-06-15 20:40 <rejon> fuck it
2011-06-15 20:40 <rejon> i like to email people in separate threads 
2011-06-15 20:40 <wpwrak> rejon: at least it's not the a-in-a-circle logo ;-)
2011-06-15 20:40 <rejon> from same company
2011-06-15 20:40 <rejon> pit them against each other
2011-06-15 20:42 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: sdr-wifi has been done with USRPs. seems to consume quite a bit of resources. not a likely candidate for a "make a product within the next 6 months" project. even if you accept generous overruns
2011-06-15 20:42 <kristianpaul> oh i dint knew it
2011-06-15 20:42 <SpeedEvil> I looked at the wifi standard for a bit.
2011-06-15 20:42 <SpeedEvil> My head melted.
2011-06-15 20:42 <wpwrak> rejon: "pretty, wouldn't you like ... . mitch, i think we all hate ... ."
2011-06-15 20:42 <SpeedEvil> I was trying to work out how the powersave logic worked.
2011-06-15 20:42 <SpeedEvil> There are _so_ many layers.
2011-06-15 20:43 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: i guess is same history for the wpan?
2011-06-15 20:43 <SpeedEvil> If you 'just' want to do a raw packet interface, and are willing to ditch everything but making it a 'raw' link that you rely on tcp to do retransmits - it'd be a fair bit easier.
2011-06-15 20:43 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: did they add some new ones lately ? didn't look much more horrible than USB, last time i looked
2011-06-15 20:44 <SpeedEvil> Maybe it was just the bits I was looking at.
2011-06-15 20:44 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: so the goal is reduce USRPs size, or jump in to FPAA..
2011-06-15 20:44 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: (rely on tcp) funny. that sounds like dirtpan ;-)
2011-06-15 20:44 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: wpan would be much easier. less complexity, slower, etc.
2011-06-15 20:44 <rejon> i'm emailing moglen and bdale too
2011-06-15 20:44 <kristianpaul> rms? :-)
2011-06-15 20:44 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: SDR wpan may be doable as a "half year" project
2011-06-15 20:45 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: yay :-)
2011-06-15 20:45 <wpwrak> rejon: hmm, maybe we should sync on what exactly you're mailing ? :)
2011-06-15 20:45 <rejon> hahaha
2011-06-15 20:45 <rejon> just keep them flowing
2011-06-15 20:45 <wpwrak> rejon: would hate to have the whole world propagate some misunderstandings :)
2011-06-15 20:45 <rejon> check that last email
2011-06-15 20:46 <rejon> i have an update one
2011-06-15 20:46 <rejon> these are mostly informational
2011-06-15 20:46 <rejon> not expecting a lot
2011-06-15 20:46 <rejon> from them
2011-06-15 20:47 <kristianpaul> i think tuxbrain_away should be prepared to run out wpan stock soon :-)
2011-06-15 20:47 <rejon> that usually happens because its in something they need, we are in the same room, or just some random coincidence
2011-06-15 20:47 <wpwrak> rejon: hmm, "parent-free" may be an exaggeration. i'm sure there are patents covering the transceiver, probably also the balun, maybe even the antenna
2011-06-15 20:47 <rejon> wpwrak, of course, just trying to get their attention
2011-06-15 20:47 <rejon> suggest better language
2011-06-15 20:47 <rejon> then why is this different?
2011-06-15 20:47 <wpwrak> rejon: the absence of worrying patents applies more to this being an open standard with now known patent trolls
2011-06-15 20:48 <rejon> ok i'm going to stick with patent-free
2011-06-15 20:48 <rejon> and put a clarifying comment
2011-06-15 20:48 <rejon> the real thing is to be able to see inside the tech
2011-06-15 20:48 <wpwrak> rejon: also, the difference to wlan is more on the level that you can get transceiver chips for wpan, with usable documentation and such, while the situation for wlan (or also BT) is decidedly bleaker
2011-06-15 20:49 <rejon> just have to get them ith keywords...emails over 1 paragraph already too much for these dudes
2011-06-15 20:49 <rejon> lets get them to comment first
2011-06-15 20:50 <wpwrak> rejon: i think also 802.11 is pretty much "open" in terms of specs, at least the basic ones (11, 11b), and there are USRP implementations to support this claim.
2011-06-15 20:50 <wpwrak> rejon: (keeping it short) yeah, terse is good. but let's not make vastly exaggerated claims. that only backfires.
2011-06-15 20:51 <wpwrak> rejon: so let's work out where exactly the freedom is
2011-06-15 20:51 <wpwrak> rejon: the main restriction is see with wlan is in the closed nature of the chips
2011-06-15 20:52 <wpwrak> rejon: you basically can't buy chips that let you implement wlan without entering some deep NDAs. what you can buy are modules that are black boxes.
2011-06-15 20:52 <rejon> i'm bcc'ing you guys on barlow, kapor and moglen and bdale...lets get them to comment first
2011-06-15 20:52 <rejon> wpwrak, can you add blurbs here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=Ben_WPAN&action=edit&section=14
2011-06-15 20:52 <rejon> and
2011-06-15 20:52 <wpwrak> rejon: some of them with closed source firmware, some with even the APIs/protocols (above trivial things like SPI) under NDA
2011-06-15 20:52 <rejon> http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=Ben_WPAN&action=edit&section=15
2011-06-15 20:52 <rejon> http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=Ben_WPAN&action=edit&section=16
2011-06-15 20:52 <wpwrak> rejon: wait !
2011-06-15 20:53 <wpwrak> rejon: let's fix this BEFORE you mail the world
2011-06-15 20:53 <rejon> (ok wpwrak )
2011-06-15 20:53 <wpwrak> rejon: if you don't have time now, we can also do this later. one day more won't make a big difference.
2011-06-15 20:54 <rejon> nah, do while energy
2011-06-15 20:54 <wpwrak> rejon: hehe, good :)
2011-06-15 20:54 <wpwrak> rejon: so, i'm not sure about the patent situation. there are probably patents on implementation details and such, but nobody outside the few chip-making companies has really penetrated this far
2011-06-15 20:55 <wpwrak> rejon: the main problem with wifi is that you can only get black boxes. wpan is much more friendly. there, you get chips with complete documentation where all the registers are, what they do, etc.
2011-06-15 20:56 <rejon> right
2011-06-15 20:56 <rejon> so can say
2011-06-15 20:56 <rejon> we are attempting to make a patent-free wireless solution
2011-06-15 20:56 <wpwrak> rejon: also, because wpan is simpler, there often isn't even any firmware in the chips. some have firmware. some of that is closed, but there's now also open source firmware for at least one.
2011-06-15 20:56 <kristianpaul> not patent-free hardware fabbing 
2011-06-15 20:57 <wpwrak> rejon: the chip we use has no firmware. everything hard-wired. rms should like that ;-)
2011-06-15 20:57 <kristianpaul> wich is diffrent from manufacture i think
2011-06-15 20:57 <wpwrak> rejon: i'm not quite sure on the patent-free side. that word may not describe the aspect properly
2011-06-15 20:58 <wpwrak> rejon: it's more making a solution that doesn't require you to be part of the inner circle that has sworn a vow of silence
2011-06-15 20:59 <rejon> wpwrak, that is cool
2011-06-15 20:59 <wpwrak> hehe ;-)
2011-06-15 20:59 <wpwrak> the mechanisms of that inner circle themselves are even obscure. can be patents, trade secrets, copyright, you name it
2011-06-15 21:00 <wpwrak> if you're member of the inner circle, you probably know some of those mechanisms (and may employ them yourself)
2011-06-15 21:00 <wpwrak> if you're not a member of the inner circle, they can't tell you. fight club reloaded.
2011-06-15 21:01 <rejon> ok wpwrak sent you the draft
2011-06-15 21:01 <rejon> please edit and/or tweak then get back to me
2011-06-15 21:02 <rejon> would like to get this b4 end of the day (1 hr)
2011-06-15 21:02 <wpwrak> also, the wlan situation clears up when you go to bigger sizes. i think there are some relatively open chips for USB-based wlan (would have to check, though. "open" is used in so many ways these days ...)
2011-06-15 21:02 <rejon> sure
2011-06-15 21:02 <rejon> just trying to hook into these guys
2011-06-15 21:03 <rejon> not hook into the details so much
2011-06-15 21:03 <wpwrak> but with the small chips, for cellphone-sized mobile devices, there's all that veil of secrecy
2011-06-15 21:03 <rejon> totally
2011-06-15 21:03 <rejon> that is good
2011-06-15 21:03 <rejon> wpwrak, can you channel these ideas onto that wiki page
2011-06-15 21:03 <rejon> i can't transcribe right now
2011-06-15 21:03 <wpwrak> (details) yeah, i just want to avoid making statements they know are wrong
2011-06-15 21:03 <rejon> those high up dudes have filter on things that don't increase their value or reputation
2011-06-15 21:04 <wpwrak> politicians :)
2011-06-15 21:04 <rejon> i say paid or laid aka p(l)aid
2011-06-15 21:04 <kristianpaul> hahah
2011-06-15 21:04 <wpwrak> ;-))
2011-06-15 21:05 <wpwrak> we need a better word for "patent-free". maybe just "Free" ?
2011-06-15 21:06 <wpwrak> (in the sense of "compatible with the principles we uphold")
2011-06-15 21:06 <kristianpaul> freedom  is overrated
2011-06-15 21:06 <rejon> yeah, probably best to ignore patent word overall
2011-06-15 21:06 <rejon> freedom is def. overrated
2011-06-15 21:06 <rejon> its not really competitive either to real world
2011-06-15 21:06 <rejon> its like, does that shit work?
2011-06-15 21:06 <rejon> can i connet my shit with it?
2011-06-15 21:06 <wpwrak> i'd take a benevolent dictatorship any day ;-)
2011-06-15 21:06 <rejon> yeah, patent and free are trigger words
2011-06-15 21:07 <rejon> better to avoid mostly
2011-06-15 21:07 <kristianpaul> patent club free 
2011-06-15 21:07 <kristianpaul> ah, ok
2011-06-15 21:07 <rejon> if someone has enough moula, then can take it
2011-06-15 21:07 <rejon> sadly
2011-06-15 21:07 <dvdk> new slashdot article.  first draft: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Slashdot-20110615-benwpan
2011-06-15 21:08 <dvdk> this time much longer 
2011-06-15 21:09 <dvdk> needs lots of polishing.  too tired already.  has time anyways
2011-06-15 21:09 <kristianpaul> wifi-dongles, humm
2011-06-15 21:10 <kristianpaul> thats a bit confusing, so wifi is wireless nor wlan?
2011-06-15 21:12 <wpwrak> (... processing rejon's mail ...)
2011-06-15 21:14 <SpeedEvil> dvdk: On first read. Does the dongle plug in or what. 
2011-06-15 21:16 <kristianpaul> dvdk: vSpeedEvil: i think usb-dongles is a right word to mention
2011-06-15 21:17 <SpeedEvil> is annoyed zigbee is closed.
2011-06-15 21:20 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: don't be annoyed with it. ignore it :)
2011-06-15 21:21 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: it's dead anyway. everybody is moving on
2011-06-15 21:22 <wpwrak> dvdk: i'd change "all WLAN" to "all suitable WLAN" (or "all otherwise suitable"). e.g., there may be some large chips that would have better documentation. but the board would be as big as the ben itself.
2011-06-15 21:23 <wpwrak> whitequark: what was your ghettoblaster's chip again ? and is there a non-NDAed data sheet for it ?
2011-06-15 21:23 <dvdk> wpwrak: it's a wiki, change what you want :)
2011-06-15 21:23 <roh> well.. there are wifi chips with free drivers... but they are usually not intended for _ultra_ mobiles
2011-06-15 21:23 <dvdk> when should we post it?  use wpwrak's account this time to disguise the redundancy?
2011-06-15 21:23 <wpwrak> dvdk: sigh. wiki, the downfall of the culture of authorship and editing ...
2011-06-15 21:24 <dvdk> wait, don't edit just yet.
2011-06-15 21:24 <wpwrak> dvdk: wait .. still reading ...
2011-06-15 21:24 <rjeffries> being anti-WiFi is a charming notion. Reminds me of being opposed to the sun rising each day. 
2011-06-15 21:24 <wpwrak> roh: yeah. plus, you probably still can't get the chip per se.
2011-06-15 21:25 <wpwrak> rjeffries: you'd be surprised by how many people here are rather successful at avoiding the evil day star ;)
2011-06-15 21:25 <rejon> wpwrak, you have to dm me if you want me
2011-06-15 21:25 <rejon> working on other things
2011-06-15 21:25 <dvdk> wpwrak: ok done.  :-P
2011-06-15 21:25 <rjeffries> WiFi gives one a single-ended soution for internet connectivity, at say your fav coffee shop. the wonderful 802.15.4 stuff is two ended, so will work at you home just fine, but not at a public wfifi hot spot.
2011-06-15 21:26 <dvdk> wpwrak: just ctrl+r and add your changes
2011-06-15 21:27 <roh> wpwrak: you can.. but usually just in some real numbers ( 5 digits at least... the rest is 'samples')
2011-06-15 21:27 <dvdk> uh, already changed, does it merge mulitple edits? not bad.
2011-06-15 21:27 <dvdk> s/but be energy efficient/but at energy efficiency/ ?
2011-06-15 21:27 <rejon> wpwrak, what is this font on here again? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/tmp/back.png
2011-06-15 21:28 <wpwrak> dvdk: i didn't try any editing so far. first list the issues
2011-06-15 21:28 <roh> rjeffries: find a 'mobile access point/bridge' hardware with an usb port and see if openwrt is useable for it
2011-06-15 21:28 <rejon> cxadams, needs to know
2011-06-15 21:28 <dvdk> is startled and looks at the history of the page
2011-06-15 21:28 <wpwrak> roh: and usually NDA :)
2011-06-15 21:28 <roh> rjeffries: i know there are devices like that, even battery operated ones. usually with also a ethernet connector. to use in a hotel room for example
2011-06-15 21:29 <dvdk> ah, evil tuxbrain is adding comments.  Yuck /me hates parens
2011-06-15 21:29 <SpeedEvil> 'not hurt battery life'
2011-06-15 21:29 <roh> wpwrak: some dont.. i think ralink for example gave out some datasheets.
2011-06-15 21:29 <wpwrak> dvdk: (at ... efficiency) yes
2011-06-15 21:29 <roh> wpwrak: not the 'big ones' . sure.
2011-06-15 21:29 <dvdk> (tuxbrain) that's why the broken english :-P
2011-06-15 21:29 <rjeffries> troh you are correct, and so am I. WiFi access is virtually ubiquitous. I can't go to my fave coffee shop and plug wpwrak 's dongle in and connect. ;)
2011-06-15 21:29 <dvdk> wpwrak: saw my comment about authorship :)
2011-06-15 21:29 <dvdk> ?
2011-06-15 21:29 <wpwrak> dvdk: also, 2 Mbps is a non-standard extension by atmel. the standard only goes to 250 kbps.
2011-06-15 21:30 <dvdk> knows that
2011-06-15 21:31 <wpwrak> maybe i'll take a shower and come back when the edit war is over ? then i only have to fight the winner :)
2011-06-15 21:32 <tuxbrain_away> will stay quite for a while :P
2011-06-15 21:33 <kristianpaul> then use a piratepad instead 
2011-06-15 21:33 <dvdk> is falling asleep
2011-06-15 21:33 <kristianpaul> and no more wars :-)
2011-06-15 21:34 <kristianpaul> ok, bteer sleep :-)
2011-06-15 21:34 <dvdk> guys, keep the story simple and concise and fun to read.  don't know whether throwing around with numbers is going to attract readers?
2011-06-15 21:34 <rejon> wpwrak, font
2011-06-15 21:35 <wpwrak> rejon: oh. dunno. that's from the altium-generated gerbers
2011-06-15 21:36 <rejon> ok cxadams wpwrak doesn't know...its probably some standard font from that program
2011-06-15 21:36 <wpwrak> dvdk, tuxbrain_away: yeah, i'd drop the bandwidth figure. we have all that on my overview page anyway
2011-06-15 21:38 <wpwrak> dvdk: (authorship) ;-))
2011-06-15 21:39 <wpwrak> "more open 6LoWPAN" maybe "IEEE 802.15.4 and eventually 6LoWPAN". we don't have the latter yet
2011-06-15 21:41 <wpwrak> dvdk: the first sentence doens't quite ring true. those chips/modules with persistent storage usually come pre-programmed.
2011-06-15 21:42 <wpwrak> dvdk: e.g., in the case of openmoko, where we used such a module, they wuoldn't even give us a reflash utility. instead, the modules had to be returned (from a team scattered all over the world, ha ha) to the company in taipei for flashing a critical update
2011-06-15 21:42 <wpwrak> (the original "consumer grade" version the shipped would die after a few seconds of SSH)
2011-06-15 21:43 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: also, don't put (ugly) in parentheses :)
2011-06-15 21:43 <dvdk> wpwrak: no i think it's ok.  production can be "produciton of the chip"
2011-06-15 21:43 <dvdk> wpwrak: that was me :)
2011-06-15 21:43 <dvdk> (paraanthesis)^
2011-06-15 21:44 <wpwrak> dvdk: (production) phew ;) okay
2011-06-15 21:44 <whitequark> regarding the wifi chipsets, I heard that Atheros has open-sourced driver and firmware
2011-06-15 21:44 <dvdk> also we shouldn't go for 100% accuracy.  Conciseness means information loss means approximations (like 6LowPAN)
2011-06-15 21:44 <xMff> they're actually firmware-less
2011-06-15 21:44 <wpwrak> dvdk: (ugly) hah ! with parentheses it means that the project is an ugly mess. without parentheses it says in an ironic way that the details are non-trivial.
2011-06-15 21:45 <dvdk> wpwrak: thought the opposite.  parenthises for the irony. hmm
2011-06-15 21:45 <xMff> only eeprom with a bit of callibration data
2011-06-15 21:45 <dvdk> s/Low/LoW/
2011-06-15 21:45 <wpwrak> whitequark: firmware too ? i know of drivers. for all but the 6k series, which are the ones targetted at small mobile systems
2011-06-15 21:46 <wpwrak> whitequark: that's why i'm saying we should qualify that statement
2011-06-15 21:46 <whitequark> this page http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/Atheros says that firmware is opensourced under a good license, and has a link to repository
2011-06-15 21:46 <whitequark> not sure which devices use that, through
2011-06-15 21:46 <wpwrak> dvdk: "ugly details" is a fixed expression. doesn't mean that everyone would find them ugly.
2011-06-15 21:47 <dvdk> wpwrak: also the article does not need to reflect the exact state of work where we are.  it's about the wpan _project_ and if that goes for 6LoWPAN, then these are 6LoWPAN dongles (a few slashdotters can hack the drivers over the weekend, won't they? :)
2011-06-15 21:47 <wpwrak> whitequark: that would be the 9k series
2011-06-15 21:48 <dvdk> that's why the irony it's {"ugly details", "details"} encoded via parens
2011-06-15 21:48 <wpwrak> dvdk: (6lowpan) well, i wouldn't want to advertize a feature we haven't even started to implement, and where we're not certain whether it will be implemented from our side
2011-06-15 21:48 <whitequark> wpwrak: ah yes, I see now. the 6k embedded series is still encumbered
2011-06-15 21:49 <wpwrak> dvdk: naw, the parentheses don't work this way. you could use "ugly" details. but keeping it simple conveys the same meaning.
2011-06-15 21:49 <dvdk> whitequark wpwrak: that's why it reads '_nearly_ all WLAN chips' .  buy one may want to add a suitable
2011-06-15 21:50 <dvdk> wpwrak: that's the nice thing about communication: what it means only depends on the receiver :)  
2011-06-15 21:50 <dvdk> but change it as you wish.  too tired to see any nuances currently
2011-06-15 21:50 <dvdk> s/only/entirely
2011-06-15 21:50 <wpwrak> i'd say "requite proprietary firmeware or are otherwise encumbered." (e.g., if you can't use the chip without a nasty NDA, it's unsuitable for copyleft hardware)
2011-06-15 21:50 <wpwrak> "use" = circuit design
2011-06-15 21:51 <dvdk> wpwrak: (encumbered) sounds neat
2011-06-15 21:51 <dvdk> and it gets longer and longer.  should have kept the first version even shorter.  at this growth rate it's not going to fit in the submit box :)
2011-06-15 21:51 <whitequark> dvdk: (encumbered) hey, that was my idea! :)
2011-06-15 21:52 <dvdk> :)
2011-06-15 21:52 <whitequark> I should have registered a patent on it...
2011-06-15 21:52 <wpwrak> rjeffries: we need your instinct as a native english speaker: "the ugly details", "the 'ugly' details", or "the (ugly) details" ? when the intended meaning is "intricate", with a dose of irony
2011-06-15 21:52 <dvdk> whitequark: hurry, before we submit it
2011-06-15 21:52 <whitequark> dvdk: isn't that prohibited by your religion? ;)
2011-06-15 21:53 <wpwrak> dvdk: whitequark's patent lawyers should be asleep now. maybe we can sneak ours in via rejon or rjeffries in the us ;-)
2011-06-15 21:53 <dvdk> whitequark: yes i'm already feeling the bad karma from it
2011-06-15 21:55 <whitequark> dvdk: if you do, you may spend your next life as a tiny and horribly closed wifi chip...
2011-06-15 21:56 <dvdk> whitequark: or as a tiny gate, having to work at 4 GHz
2011-06-15 21:56 <whitequark> dvdk: or, in the worst case, as an x86 core
2011-06-15 21:56 <dvdk> it's a little difficuult to fit 'encumbered' into the long sentence with proprietary firmare, have to drop the last part of the sentence
2011-06-15 21:57 <dvdk> whitequark: as an A20 gate ? :)
2011-06-15 21:57 <whitequark> dvdk: definitely!
2011-06-15 21:57 <whitequark> dvdk: (fitting) that sentence just becames too encumbered, isn't it?
2011-06-15 21:59 <dvdk> ok, time for bed
2011-06-15 21:59 <dvdk> cu guys
2011-06-15 21:59 <whitequark> bye
2011-06-15 22:12 <wpwrak> so .. nobody else editing ? then i shall have my way with it :)
2011-06-15 22:25 <wpwrak> done with my edits. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Slashdot-20110615-benwpan
2011-06-15 22:25 <wpwrak> see history for details: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=Slashdot-20110615-benwpan&action=history
2011-06-15 22:27 <SpeedEvil> I'd use wifi, not wlan
2011-06-15 22:28 <tuxbrain_away> wifi == wlan
2011-06-15 22:28 <tuxbrain_away> wireless !=wifi
2011-06-15 22:28 <SpeedEvil> True - the former acronym is much more common though
2011-06-15 22:28 <tuxbrain_away> wireless!=wlan
2011-06-15 22:28 <SpeedEvil> And in context - wlan is used as a synonym for wifi.
2011-06-15 22:34 <SpeedEvil> I've hacked on it - revert if you hate it. :)
2011-06-15 23:10 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: WIFI or WiFi ? :)
2011-06-15 23:10 <SpeedEvil> yeah - probably
2011-06-15 23:10 <SpeedEvil> I forget how they capitalise it.
2011-06-15 23:11 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: WiFi is more widely understood than WLAN. alas, it's a forbidden word (trademarked). but i guess i this context we can get away with using it.
2011-06-15 23:13 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: have you seen the numerous comments on the prices ? regarding indicating taxes and not ? your current system is very confusing
2011-06-15 23:14 <tuxbrain_away> wpwrak: ok I will try to fix it ASAP, with an "IVA includo" is enough?
2011-06-15 23:15 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: do you know the legal requirements for what you can write there and what not ? e.g,, i think you're obliged to include taxes in prices that are potentially destined at EU customers, but i don't know if you can mention that this includes EU taxes, and whether you're allowed to also show non-EU prices or have a link/button for non-EU prices
2011-06-15 23:16 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: are you in good terms with pulster ? if yes, you may want to ask him. or maybe Nikolaus Schaller.
2011-06-15 23:16 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: germans tend to be very well-informed when it comes to laws ;-)
2011-06-15 23:16 <tuxbrain_away> there is no rule but meanwhile it's clear in the final confirmation order sumary
2011-06-15 23:17 <tuxbrain_away> but mostly 90% of my cosrtumers are from EU so if I show prices without Vat in the final order sumary before confirmation they feel cheated and don't buy.
2011-06-15 23:18 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: heh, pulster is making fun of your shipping costs ;-) http://www.pulster.de/nanonote.htm
2011-06-15 23:18 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (tuxbrain: EUR 99 + 23 shipping = EUR 122. ergo my price is better ;-)
2011-06-15 23:19 <tuxbrain_away> I can try to make more clear that is with vat included
2011-06-15 23:19 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: i think it's okay to show prices with VAT by default. but you should also mention that these are in-EU prices. so, say, US customers, who are used to prices without taxes won't think it's very expensive.
2011-06-15 23:19 <tuxbrain_away> (pulster) yeah I already know that , he asked me  permision for that :)
2011-06-15 23:20 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (permission) nice :)
2011-06-15 23:20 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (mainly EU customers) also don't forget that you're the only global distributor for atben/atusb for now :)
2011-06-15 23:21 <tuxbrain_away> it's not true anyway but I don't care, the NN they sell I have selled to him first :P
2011-06-15 23:21 <SpeedEvil> What was the price?
2011-06-15 23:21 <wpwrak> so he adds EUR 9 and optimizes the shipping. fair enough
2011-06-15 23:21 <SpeedEvil> And can the microSD thingy fit in arbitrary sockets?
2011-06-15 23:22 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: (trademarked) it's legal to say "we are NOT <trademark>(R)"
2011-06-15 23:23 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: that's what i hope :)
2011-06-15 23:24 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: no. they must have the right physical clearance, you must be able to bit-bang the I/O pins, and you must be able to switch power on/off.
2011-06-15 23:24 <tuxbrain_away> wpwrak: (WWD of atben and atusb) Ok I will try to make it clearer, somthing with little lettes beside the price telling (vat included, are you not from EU? click here)
2011-06-15 23:24 <SpeedEvil> wpwrak: I guess not the n900 - physical clearance would kill it.
2011-06-15 23:24 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: ah, and you must have all the I/O pins. no cheating with 1-bit bus devices. (e.g., various things in the arduinoverse)
2011-06-15 23:24 <SpeedEvil> And on reflection - it's under teh battery)
2011-06-15 23:24 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: (VAT) in EU you need to show prices incl VAT for products intended at end users. You are free to also show the netto price w/o VAT, as long as you have the all-incl price too, and you clearly state what is what
2011-06-15 23:25 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: you should get a ben. it fits perfectly there ;-))
2011-06-15 23:25 <SpeedEvil> wpwrak: REgrettably.
2011-06-15 23:25 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: sounds great
2011-06-15 23:25 <DocScrutinizer> tuxbrain_away: ^^^
2011-06-15 23:25 <SpeedEvil> I have _WAAAAAY_ too much random hardware I haven't touched again.
2011-06-15 23:26 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: lock away the rest. focus on what's important, namely the ben ;-)
2011-06-15 23:26 <SpeedEvil> As I'm now on a sharply limited budget, I'm trying to limit my purchases to sutff I'm actually going to be doing stuff on next week.
2011-06-15 23:26 <SpeedEvil> Though I am looking at solar panel bits on ebay, which is probably silly.
2011-06-15 23:26 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: don't worry. none of us can really afford our addiction. don't let this stop you ;-)
2011-06-15 23:27 <DocScrutinizer> hah
2011-06-15 23:27 <SpeedEvil> I had no heating on last winter, to save for insulation work on the house - so I have zero spare cash at the moment.
2011-06-15 23:28 <SpeedEvil> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-KW-3x6-Short-Tabbed-Solar-Cells-Diy-Panel-/120717367254?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1b50d7d6
2011-06-15 23:28 <SpeedEvil> Silly solar.
2011-06-15 23:29 <wpwrak> SpeedEvil: so you solar-paneled everything ? the cost of is would probably for a century of inefficient heating ;-)
2011-06-15 23:29 <wpwrak> s/for/pay for/
2011-06-15 23:29 <SpeedEvil> wpwrak: naah. Though 12m^2 of solar cells for $800 is silly cheap.
2011-06-15 23:30 <SpeedEvil> I've bought conventional 10cm foam insulation, and am installing it.
2011-06-15 23:41 <wpwrak> hmm. the kWh costs here about 2.5 US-cents. so USD 900+ USD 149 shipping, taxes (30%?)... that's 68 MWh. if you panel has an overall yield of 10% per year, that's 1.75 MWh per year. you'll break even in about 40 years. i hope you're young and in good health ;-)
2011-06-15 23:41 <SpeedEvil> Here it's $.20