2011-06-08 00:08 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: gtkguitune, swap left and right interface patch http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/221303d 2011-06-08 00:08 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: nanonote-files: reflash_ben.sh using -O in wget http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/3ecb2ca 2011-06-08 02:19 oh boy, now are going for nvidia.. 2011-06-08 02:26 kristianpaul: hi 2011-06-08 02:27 kristianpaul: one questioan on verlog , do we really needs this rx1? https://github.com/milkymist/milkymist/blob/master/cores/rc5/rtl/rc5.v#L59 2011-06-08 02:40 xiangfu: hey 2011-06-08 02:40 oh sure 2011-06-08 02:40 kristianpaul: ok. then I have my first patch on Verlog code, remove rx1 :D 2011-06-08 02:40 thats used fot clock domain sync lines 59 - 65 2011-06-08 02:40 no no 2011-06-08 02:41 oh. 2011-06-08 02:41 sory i missundertood you 2011-06-08 02:41 I understand now. used for clock domain sync 2011-06-08 02:41 oh sure, we need it ;) 2011-06-08 02:42 remner verilog is a hdl, try to think cocurrently when checking the code 2011-06-08 02:42 i still did mistakes for let go that.. 2011-06-08 02:43 kristianpaul: then check the L101 and L106, 2011-06-08 02:43 we only saved 13bit, not full 14bit? ( the rc5 is 14bits) 2011-06-08 02:46 rx_reg <= {rx_reg[11:0], rx2}; 2011-06-08 02:46 i see 2011-06-08 02:46 well you know more than me about rc5 :-) 2011-06-08 02:47 but rx_reg was originally declared as 13 bits register 2011-06-08 02:48 yes. is that wrong. we should declared it as 14 bits ? 2011-06-08 02:48 how that thing will change? 2011-06-08 02:51 kristianpaul: hmm.. that make me guess the start bit maybe also wrong? 2011-06-08 02:51 you had confirm when you read that from bios you are missing that bit? 2011-06-08 02:52 mr d that from bios you are missing that bit? [21:52] [kristianpaul(+Zi)] [7:Freenode/#qi-hardw 2011-06-08 02:52 oops 2011-06-08 02:52 mr 0xe000e000 2011-06-08 02:52 kristianpaul: (if the start bit is wrong the data will random), 2011-06-08 02:53 kristianpaul: let me explain a little. 2011-06-08 02:53 please :-) 2011-06-08 02:54 (find some URL first :) 2011-06-08 02:55 checking wikipedia article 2011-06-08 02:55 Adam and me have same IR remote controller,(for test m1 IR receiver) 2011-06-08 02:56 Adam use oscillograph measure the IR data before it goes into FPGA. it's like http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/adam/m1/pic/button1_0x0c_wide.JPG 2011-06-08 02:58 3, I also press the button '1', use the mr 0xe000e000 4 in BIOSÂ Â read the data. 2011-06-08 02:59 hum, but you should loop that read i think 2011-06-08 02:59 4. it give totally random value (in 3~4 values), 2011-06-08 02:59 the register seems to change as soon receive data i think. may be wrong 2011-06-08 03:00 so ramdom data from ir dint sound that bad ;) 2011-06-08 03:00 kristianpaul: I run that command many times. not only once 2011-06-08 03:00 but how many times, you mean you self? 2011-06-08 03:00 not a program? 2011-06-08 03:00 manually. not a program 2011-06-08 03:00 hum 2011-06-08 03:01 kristianpaul: I also modify the test image, there is a while(1) in read the 0xe000e000, 2011-06-08 03:01 kristianpaul: it is same as BIOS. 2011-06-08 03:02 kristianpaul: so I guess there are some bug in fpga code? that is why I look into rc5.v :) 2011-06-08 03:06 from the scope pic i can count 13 bits 2011-06-08 03:06 where you got the 14 bits? 2011-06-08 03:09 kristianpaul: there are 13.5 bits. 2011-06-08 03:10 kristianpaul: form right to left, I count 13.5, the last is '0' 2011-06-08 03:11 kristianpaul: http://users.telenet.be/davshomepage/rc5.htm 2011-06-08 03:11 from the document it's 14bits 2011-06-08 03:11 let me check 2011-06-08 03:11 start[2], toggle[1], address[5], command[6] 2011-06-08 03:12 ah, i see now 2011-06-08 03:12 good link 2011-06-08 03:12 so yes, something is missing 2011-06-08 03:15 yup, why not rx_reg can be 14 bits, is a shift reg after all 2011-06-08 03:16 and also rx_data 2011-06-08 03:16 you theory looks good for me xiangfu ! 2011-06-08 03:17 kristianpaul: http://dpaste.com/551777/ :) 2011-06-08 03:18 already tried? 2011-06-08 03:18 yesterday I use the 'load_bitstream.sh' under milkymist.git, now I try to flash the modify image to my m1 2011-06-08 03:19 (build again...) 2011-06-08 03:20 kristianpaul: I don't understand how it find the start bit? 2011-06-08 03:20 (build again, it needs 14 mins in my laptop) 2011-06-08 03:20 me either.. let me chek 2011-06-08 03:20 what??!! 14 minutes?? 2011-06-08 03:21 wow 2011-06-08 03:21 kristianpaul: Sebastien said "timing margins may be too tight" 2011-06-08 03:21 do you have any ideas how to look into that? 2011-06-08 03:29 well, there is a counter wich do the sampling, that need be confirmed as well 2011-06-08 03:35 rx_count16 <= rx_count16 + 4'd1; // i think this found the T 2011-06-08 03:35 tricky 2011-06-08 03:35 indeed too tight :-) 2011-06-08 03:45 kristianpaul: how to modify it? I can test :) 2011-06-08 03:46 kristianpaul: how long you compile bitstream.(soc.fpg)? 2011-06-08 03:49 xiangfu: from what i understand start bit is found when some timing/period is met in a bit 2011-06-08 03:49 but.. 2011-06-08 03:50 met timing in fpga's is tricky, well.. you need to do some math for rc5.v counters :-) 2011-06-08 03:50 xiangfu: soc.fpg was 35 minutes with full mm1 soc, 2011-06-08 03:51 then i disabled cores i was not using to reduce sinthesis to 10 minutes.. or my patience will blow out.. 2011-06-08 03:58 kristianpaul: maybe you try 'build_bitstream.sh' next time. 2011-06-08 03:59 what is special on it? 2011-06-08 03:59 kristianpaul: just build one file. 2011-06-08 03:59 system.bit 2011-06-08 03:59 sure me too 2011-06-08 03:59 i hacked makefileÂ Â ;) 2011-06-08 03:59 kristianpaul: I remember it's 14mins, not test recently. 2011-06-08 04:00 no rescue or standby 2011-06-08 04:00 just soc.fpg 2011-06-08 04:01 kristianpaul:Â Â (timing, counters) sounds hard to me. please give me more info. thanks 2011-06-08 04:02 kristianpaul: now it's flashing. let's see what happen we change it to 14bits 2011-06-08 04:02 wow 2011-06-08 04:02 fast indeed 2011-06-08 04:03 change to 14bits. same as before. :( 2011-06-08 04:03 so no need for all bits 2011-06-08 04:04 in fact we only needs the last 11 bits. 2011-06-08 04:09 ah 2011-06-08 04:16 sorry i'm off now 2011-06-08 04:16 gn8 2011-06-08 04:23 good night 2011-06-08 04:34 https://github.com/milkymist/autotest-m1/commit/ff351c19f71bfbc904731db7c74947f4447937ad 2011-06-08 04:34 new IR test code 2011-06-08 04:35 handle repeat values when press button. 2011-06-08 06:57 wolfspraul: hmm, there seems to be some misconception on the list about the ya nanonote schedule ... like "when will it be done ?" where the question should be "will it start ?" :) 2011-06-08 06:59 I didn't see that. But sure, I am not actively working on Ya NanoNote now. 2011-06-08 06:59 totally no need, I can see the Ben improving a lot (in software), then ben-wpan, etc. 2011-06-08 06:59 the "CPU loyalty thread" and now also the USB thread. 2011-06-08 06:59 I answered the USB, no time for CPU want to focus on m1 rc3 :-) 2011-06-08 06:59 i'd quite strongly disagree on the "no need" ... 2011-06-08 07:00 i see the "no money, no people" ,though 2011-06-08 07:00 ok, it's a business. the question is would it sell? 2011-06-08 07:00 better than the ben :) 2011-06-08 07:00 I have no data that suggests if a Ya would come out with bigger specs now that it would sell better/a lot. 2011-06-08 07:02 I think the way this can work is that I show the Ben to customers, and they need to see the need for something bigger and better. 2011-06-08 07:02 so for the time being, I can only improve the ben, for example in software or ben-wpan 2011-06-08 07:02 then use the ben to go for greener pastures 2011-06-08 07:03 well, the ben has a lot of small issues, too. bad keyboard layout. poor screen size / available area ratio. imbalance. 2011-06-08 07:03 that's just outward appearance that makes it look bad 2011-06-08 07:04 plus, it's weak on the freedom side. one implication of this is that you can't fix those small problems. 2011-06-08 07:05 the better specs would be simply benefits you reap as you go. of course you wouldn't design a new product for an obsolete chip, old slow and now expensive memory, etc. 2011-06-08 07:06 I'm not disagreeing with any of this 2011-06-08 07:07 i think the bottom line is lack of money. you can try to argue that there's no need, but it doesn't sound very convincing :) 2011-06-08 07:08 kinda like saying to your friends, after the pretty girl rejected you, that you didn't find her that hot anyway ;-) 2011-06-08 07:08 a business makes money, doesn't need money 2011-06-08 07:09 in hardware, you need money to make more :) 2011-06-08 07:09 I'm bringing Milkymist One to market now, the second product. That's still a boatload of work. Then I need to work hard on the sales side, for sure. 2011-06-08 07:09 nah you always make money. make make make. I'm American trained. If you need money, you loan it from someone else. Focus on where you create value, the reap the rewards (=make money). 2011-06-08 07:10 i see M1 more like a parallel line. something very different. 2011-06-08 07:10 yes sure 2011-06-08 07:10 but I need to focus on that now 2011-06-08 07:10 it's out of stock, quite embarassing 2011-06-08 07:10 and most of the people who bought one are not using it, even more embarassing 2011-06-08 07:10 I am not worried that my NanoNote sales pitch will get worse over time. 2011-06-08 07:10 )if you need money, you just loan it) so you're saying you had the opportunity to find investment for continuing the nanonote line but rejected it ? 2011-06-08 07:11 not so much "buy Ben NanoNote from me", but "look we have this Ben NanoNote, we could go here and there as the next step..." 2011-06-08 07:11 no there is no sales forecast, no clear evidence of demand 2011-06-08 07:11 the value of the nanonote declines since there's no continuation 2011-06-08 07:11 build it and they will come doesn't work, or rather I don't believe in it 2011-06-08 07:12 not at all. Software on the Ben needs to stay fresh and clean, always updated. Then the Ben can be the entry point for any discussion about Ya, at any time. 2011-06-08 07:12 the market around us is consolidating 2011-06-08 07:12 you built the ben and people came. despite its poor outward appearance 2011-06-08 07:12 iTown is being built 2011-06-08 07:12 Android massacre is unfolding as planned 2011-06-08 07:13 yeah, the big ones are slugging it out among themselves quite nicely 2011-06-08 07:13 Symbian, Nokia, RIM all dead I'd say 2011-06-08 07:13 yup 2011-06-08 07:14 just imagine someone from RIM even, trying to sell their current products as the staging area for something bigger and better 2011-06-08 07:14 and then tiny Ben NanoNote doing the same 2011-06-08 07:14 well, RIM is s communication product. ben isn't. 2011-06-08 07:14 I think we can bring forward some good arguments, and I don't see how they get worse in x months, assuming that we can keep the software fresh, upstream everything, not fork, not create unmanageable maintenance burdens, etc. 2011-06-08 07:15 I'm talking about Ya 2011-06-08 07:15 I need to make a sales pitch with the Ben, saying "let's add xyz, and then go after market abc" 2011-06-08 07:16 that sales pitch is still intact, and for the most part unaffected by the big movements 2011-06-08 07:16 but now I need to launch m1 2011-06-08 07:16 :-) 2011-06-08 07:16 i'd see two main roles for a ya: 1) a technology/design update. 2) move forward on the freedom side. 2011-06-08 07:16 definitely, both 2011-06-08 07:17 but that's just the engineering side. Someone will want to understand why they sell. 2011-06-08 07:17 Why people will line up 2 blocks screaming and yelling to get one. 2011-06-08 07:17 and there we have to wait for the right entrace in the market, the right partner who believes in it and goes with the Ben, turning into the Ya sensation 2011-06-08 07:17 well, one marketing angle could be to pitch the freedom side 2011-06-08 07:18 the pull is limited in my experience. 2011-06-08 07:19 but then, truth be told, i'd much rather see a sponsor than an investor. don't care whether ya can sell enough to make a profit. be content if it sells better than the ben (as a proof of concept) 2011-06-08 07:19 and outsider would be outright scared that we think an outside can help create a better freedom marketing story... 2011-06-08 07:19 strengthen the process. then act from a position of power and preparedness. 2011-06-08 07:19 I think on the freedom marketing side, we have maxed it out. If someone else proves me wrong, fine. 2011-06-08 07:20 we've sold 1200+ nanos on that argument alone, and that's the most anyone could have managed for that spec list at that timing. 2011-06-08 07:20 duno. i think a more free and generally better nanonote would find its customer base. not sure if it would be profitable, though. 2011-06-08 07:20 so of course I agree the freedom side will improve, that's how we invest, but the sales pull needs to come from somewhere else too 2011-06-08 07:20 gta01 sold about that number. "upgrade" gta02 was 10x ;-) 2011-06-08 07:20 I wouldn't send anyone down that path :-) 2011-06-08 07:20 been there, done that 2011-06-08 07:20 so there's precedent :) 2011-06-08 07:21 yes there is a market/size/audience, but it's small 2011-06-08 07:21 of course with more working features, it grows a bit 2011-06-08 07:21 let's say linear, every feature another 1000-2000 2011-06-08 07:21 again, i would try to think more about way to decouple the immediate development from profitability 2011-06-08 07:22 e.g., i also don't see M1 as a money-maker. of course, it could be a surprise success, but its real value is elsewhere. and it doesn't capitalize on that yet. 2011-06-08 07:22 but I think the technology we have created can be used to create value way beyond a pure freedom argument 2011-06-08 07:22 'created' maybe too much, the technology we have bundled :-) 2011-06-08 07:23 i'd say the technology we control. in the end, open source/hardware is all about control. yours or theirs. 2011-06-08 07:24 one problem of the ben is that's poorly suited as an OEM platform. so you can't capitalize on the ability to share the control you've gained. 2011-06-08 07:25 another problem of the ben is that you don't control all that much. still too many things are closed. 2011-06-08 07:25 yes yes. The Ya will be much more open/free of course. 2011-06-08 07:25 :-) 2011-06-08 07:29 e.g., you can't even just sell a Ben PCB. this pretty much dooms all attempts to position it in the embedded market. 2011-06-08 07:30 OEM looking for a reduced/focused function device would almost certainly want to change the keyboard. nope, can't do that either. 2011-06-08 07:30 maybe someone would like to change the circuit a little. like adding their favourite foo chip. yet another opportunity you have to let pass helplessly. 2011-06-08 07:32 there's a ton of things the ben can't do because you don't have enough control. each of them may be an opportunity to make it big. granted, there's no point in expecting each opportunity to turn to gold. but then, some of them do. 2011-06-08 07:35 but again, i don't even think a ya should be planned as profitable. maybe it would be. maybe it'll need one more spin to hit the spot. 2011-06-08 07:37 and i think the potential investors you talked too understood that too. that's why they didn't believe in your strategy of achieving short-term profitability. maybe they would have liked a promise of long-term profitability even less. but at least it would have been internally consistent. 2011-06-08 07:38 s/too/to/ # first one 2011-06-08 07:42 regarding the value of M1, i see its strong point also in the technological portfolio. step 1) make a complex FPGA-based system that can survive in an end-customer situation. that gives you the experience and (some of the) resources to competently use fpga as a platform. 2011-06-08 07:42 2) work on opening the use of fpga. llhdl :) that's the real breakthrough there. 2011-06-08 07:44 the a follow-on product could focus on doing interesting things with 2). it's a long shot. that's why wouldn't really expect even an M2 to be a commercial success. the whole milkymist line should be the long-term research of qi-hw while the nanonote is the cash cow. 2011-06-08 07:45 wolfspraul: finish your work with MM, do it well and do it as quick as you can afford, then with same spirit to stay focused go for Ya, having the wpwrak OEM arguments on mind(able to use the board only, accecible gpio for extendability), with all improvements achieved like wpan, and maybe if on time the gps , and also with a more stamina +CPU +ram +res but same size. I think credibility on all qi-hardware stuff is pending on our promise on evolve Na 2011-06-08 07:45 nonote, lot of our Ben Costumers (if not all) had buyed with that promise in mind, others expect to buy when this evolution becomes a reality because NN is just not enough, I agree you must focus on what you have started on MM but I'm worried about your arguments that there is "no need" of Ya, I thinking more on "we are late" on Ya, but of course our lack of resources is the main reason so I was no worried but your arguments yes makes me worry a litt 2011-06-08 07:45 le bit 2011-06-08 07:46 tuxbrain: fully agreed. there is a sense of abandonment around the nanonote. 2011-06-08 07:48 tuxbrain: wolfgang's argument that there's no need to a ya makes perfect sense if you consider him saying "I'm American trained." :) 2011-06-08 07:49 why don't I feel the abandonment? 2011-06-08 07:49 what do people abandon the nano for? 2011-06-08 07:49 maybe they will come back :-) 2011-06-08 07:50 tuxbrain: US commercial philosophy focuses strongly on making money. that's actually rooted in religion, calvinism to be precise. if you don't have money, you're (morally) bad. nobody wants to feel that way. thus you need to switch to denial, to avoid the emotional burden of accepting the truth. 2011-06-08 07:51 one big worry I would have is that we can move all of the Ben software forward to the Ya 2011-06-08 07:51 that's probably the one thing I would consider the most 2011-06-08 07:51 wolfspraul: (abandonment) perhaps you don't feel it because you're busy with M1 ;-) 2011-06-08 07:51 yes! maybe 2011-06-08 07:51 wolfspraul: if you look at mailing list or irc traffic statistics, you can see quite clearly a sharp decline 2011-06-08 07:52 but my nano serves me well. I just reflash 05-28 and it's cool. I use mine mostly as a music player. 2011-06-08 07:52 my opinion from the customer side: I've shown off my nanonote in the local foss community and most of the time the answer was "nice device - oh, no internet - that's useless", and that's from people who like freedom and buy this kind of devices even if they have no real ned 2011-06-08 07:52 valhalla: fair enough. so what do they buy instead? 2011-06-08 07:52 my guess: android device 2011-06-08 07:52 wolfspraul: an android phone 2011-06-08 07:52 currently most of them buy smartphones 2011-06-08 07:53 totally fine, I would never, not in a million years, try to chase that 2011-06-08 07:53 not only android, also meego 2011-06-08 07:53 next year all Android then :-) 2011-06-08 07:53 and arduinos, on the other end of the spectrum 2011-06-08 07:53 my sales pitch for nano should be like this: 2011-06-08 07:53 1) have you heard of these thousands of different android devices? 2011-06-08 07:53 those who don't buy android do it forÂ Â the (lack of) freedom, I believe 2011-06-08 07:53 2) they come in all sizes, all prices, even free if you like 2011-06-08 07:54 3) they have an infinite amount of great software, also free if you like 2011-06-08 07:54 4) they are getting better every 3 months 2011-06-08 07:54 i don't think the nanonote should be positioned as an alternative to a smartphone. we're nowhere near mastery of that sort of technology. i'm not even worried that much about the technical side per se, but more about access to components (and all that comes with them, support, etc.) 2011-06-08 07:54 5) you still say no to all this? 2011-06-08 07:54 6) really? 2011-06-08 07:54 7) ok, let me tell you about NanoNote... 2011-06-08 07:54 wolfspraul: don't twist our argument we are not saing to become one more android device we must stay in the linux side but we MUST evolve 2011-06-08 07:55 yes sure, I was joking 2011-06-08 07:55 valhalla: we are well aware of the arduino or android movements, and that's all fine 2011-06-08 07:55 I cannot add value to either, with this project, or my Ben NanoNote product 2011-06-08 07:55 neither can Milkymist One btw 2011-06-08 07:55 so we have to let those play out, whichever way they play 2011-06-08 07:56 tuxbrain: definitely. we need as much power as possible! 2011-06-08 07:56 and fast 2011-06-08 07:56 the fact is, at ~100 eur some of those people who already has both an android phone and an arduino could still buy a nanonote, just to play with it 2011-06-08 07:56 this is tech business, not aged whiskeys 2011-06-08 07:57 we agree on the goal, maybe differ on the path there. Although I am currently pushing m1, and you are pushing ben-wpan. So we do something :-) 2011-06-08 07:57 I think Android will take all oxygen out of the room for a number of years 2011-06-08 07:58 I have invested in all that wpan stuff not just to extend the useful live of Ben, the main reason is to have hardware aviable to let the devels to improve the sofware for the future Ya, but that blurry future on ya makes me worry a lot 2011-06-08 07:58 oh definitely. we need to make an integrated device. 2011-06-08 07:58 valhalla: exactly ! the android phone is a daily tool. the nanonote can be something else. just because it's small doesn't mean that it has to be in the same product class. 2011-06-08 07:58 at least I think that can sell. 2011-06-08 07:59 valhalla: which argument could make an android user, maybe even android hacker, consider buying a NanoNote on the side? 2011-06-08 08:01 and which technical or application feature impresses them the most, when you show your Ben? 2011-06-08 08:01 wolfspraul: not every android user, just the ones in the area of the foss community I know: the ability to do cool stuff with it, installing ones own linux, do cool small projects (of course that's a niche, you don't get to mass market that way) 2011-06-08 08:02 they are impressed from the size, mosty, and the fact that it looks like it is a full featured computer (until they know about no usb host) 2011-06-08 08:03 so, something where you can hack as it if was a computer, but pocketable 2011-06-08 08:03 usb host may be actually what breaks the deal in many cases. not because it would be so important per se, but because it's one disappointment too many. 2011-06-08 08:03 so my vision for the ya would be to reduce the number of disappointments :) 2011-06-08 08:03 I think al lthat 6Lowpan stuff is the main busines oportunity we have, is what make us distiguish from the rest and make us a little avadtage from the others hardware alternatives , talking at the marketing side, on the tech side the fpga to move towards 100% free hardware is what make us as project don't lose the north , 2011-06-08 08:04 wpwrak: +1 to kill dissapointment sources 2011-06-08 08:05 with usb host it would be more like "no, it doesn't have it... but you can do something for it, even as a customer access just to end user devices" 2011-06-08 08:06 wolfspraul: I will just happy if in the CPU cicles free of M1 that your mind has instead of the "I'm just happy with ben as is" the idea of "we have to move forward on NN" replace it 2011-06-08 08:09 wolfspraul: also, the software side on the nanonote isn't all that rosy. true, there is good and continuing work on the distribution side. but there's very little now development that specifically targets the device. e.g., makes use of unique properties or addresses inherent limitations 2011-06-08 08:10 so basically all the sw development resources are spent on porting. that's no bad as such, but what's worrying is that there's little original work in this community. 2011-06-08 08:11 I think the first step will be to decide theÂ Â SOC to build arround it , fix it and move towards, find if we have an devel kit with that soc to start porting the soft to that target anything wrong with that aproach 2011-06-08 08:11 ? 2011-06-08 08:11 original work is what gets people excited. porting is basically housekeeping. a necessity, but usually not a source of excitement. 2011-06-08 08:14 tuxbrain: that's how it's usually done :) important here: don't lose the value that's been amasses on the kernel and distribution side. so it would either have to be a very similar chip (e.g., the 4760), or one with comparably good support 2011-06-08 08:14 wpwrak: but this needs critical mass and the "what I'm doing will some kind of future" spirit, and with the "ben is good as is" idea we will not achieve it 2011-06-08 08:15 tuxbrain: also in terms of a marketing message, "platform continuity" may sound better than "new radically different super-soc". at least for the immediate successor of the ben. 2011-06-08 08:15 wpwrak:Â Â sure! I don't know the alternative we have but fully agree on the evolution (not revolution) though 2011-06-08 08:17 what devel board are there with the 4760 and what is the list of features of that chip? any link to read? 2011-06-08 08:17 (platform continuity) also one thing that keeps VARs (in a broad sense) away: they often want some sense of stability, be it because they have customers with long-running project (including the support phase), and also to justify their own investment in the platform in terms of technical or business development 2011-06-08 08:18 tuxbrain: chip features; FPU, 3 (!!!) MMC/SD/SDIO controllers, DDR2. need more ? :-) 2011-06-08 08:19 wpwrak: yes, be sure this time the keyboard will not interfere with serial port :P 2011-06-08 08:19 tuxbrain: access to documentation is the one major weak point of the 4760. ingenic are very incompatible with our ideals in that regard. e.g., wolfgang's beloved TI would be lightyears ahead there :) 2011-06-08 08:20 valhalla: and lack of wifi probably (sorry was away) 2011-06-08 08:20 but I think the excitement mostly comes from the 'shrunk notebook' look, like a freakshow basically 2011-06-08 08:21 the one argument that may potentially work is 'native mutt client', or 'native emacs' or so 2011-06-08 08:21 wolfspraul: of course, but usb host gives wifi, with some limitations 2011-06-08 08:21 tuxbrain: lars has some devel board for the 4760. don't know how large a choice is there. i wouldn't consider the devel board as an overly critical item, as long as there's at least one that works and where you can copy the design from. 2011-06-08 08:21 but in reality the user base for this type of app is very small 2011-06-08 08:21 wolfspraul: native mutt in a non-communication device ? hmm :) 2011-06-08 08:21 offline mutt 2011-06-08 08:21 ;-) 2011-06-08 08:22 I'm just saying as a story/argument, not even what works today 2011-06-08 08:22 there are many apps that are being pushed into history by the android movement 2011-06-08 08:22 but there is little/too little movement to really keep them alive, at least today 2011-06-08 08:22 there is some, but we are selling to those already :-) 2011-06-08 08:22 wolfspraul: you sound like sean, centering his PR effort for wikireader about boldly claiming that you don;t need communication ;-) 2011-06-08 08:22 native serial console with a real keyboard 2011-06-08 08:23 heh, the retro angle has something :) maybe retired engineers are the way to go 2011-06-08 08:24 wpwrak: (sean comparation) wow that was hard :P 2011-06-08 08:24 tuxbrain: (keyboard) oh yes. the 4760 has more I/Os than the 4720 for sure. 2011-06-08 08:25 I want connectivity, I think Ya must have connectivity. and I think it should be wireless right away, forget the wires... 2011-06-08 08:26 wires are good for embedded use. i would see embedded as a potentially very strong point. 2011-06-08 08:27 you could even do something nice with the ben. but of course, people will bark at having to buy all that plastic. 2011-06-08 08:27 yes OEM guys are a real part of my serious costumer base, they go for arduino, so that's why my strong efforts to relate both worlds, they are serching for open and easy to integrate solutions 2011-06-08 08:28 and USB host is less about connectivity-for-communication (you're thethered for power anyway) but for peripherals. e.g., a usb keyboard can make a world of difference. 2011-06-08 08:29 but let's not lose the focus, wpwrak do you agree to start a lobby to push NN forward? :P 2011-06-08 08:29 tuxbrain: have you been able to talk any embedded developers into using the ben for a project ? 2011-06-08 08:29 yeah :) 2011-06-08 08:29 wolfspraul: maybe just integrate what is currently called ben-wpan to next NN? 2011-06-08 08:30 wpwrak: yes but lack of accecible gpios don't make it atractive and they finally go to arduino 2011-06-08 08:31 wpwrak: also as arduino terminal is not complete we can just flash it now 2011-06-08 08:31 that's why I'm also intereste on achive wpan with arduino 2011-06-08 08:31 (usb keyboard) i had an eye-opening experience in the early 1980es. back then, i had a sinclair ZX81 at home. it was slow and had a horrible foil keyboard. 2011-06-08 08:32 a NN as data colector /analisys of an arduino based system will be also "easy" to sell 2011-06-08 08:33 (usb kbd) then there was a consumer electronics trade show in zurich. there, one company showed a real keyboard for the zx81. they actually just put the zx81 pcb into the keyboard. it was exactly the same slow hardware. yet, with real buttons under your fingers, not only the typing was much better, no, the whole machine suddenly felt snappier. 2011-06-08 08:34 wpwrak: (ya lobby) we must find a also 4760 based devel board affordable ,already the market and reproducible as first step, then colect as much doc as posible about it. 2011-06-08 08:34 tuxbrain: (NN+arduino) i see than as a strong point too. let a custom peripheral (arduino or such) worry about the bits and voltages, then take the processing to your linux system (ben), where you're in a familiar and powerful environment 2011-06-08 08:36 tuxbrain: (nn+a) one problem is the growing competition of usb-capable mcus. a lot of people are still afraid of usb, but it's getting easier. (and then there's of course always ftdi) 2011-06-08 08:36 wpwrak: mcus? 2011-06-08 08:37 tuxbrain: MCUs. on the small end, silabs c8051f3xx, atmel amega*U*, etc. 2011-06-08 08:38 microchip also have usb-capable PIGs 2011-06-08 08:39 wpwrak: another argument to justify NN +(arduino or whatever hardware DIY) is that you can simplify Human interface (buttons, LCD, etc..) you have a full keyboard and a color screen to interact with it, 2011-06-08 08:39 wpwrak: (usb capable) yes but we can offer a wireless solution on it. 2011-06-08 08:39 tuxbrain: yup, good point. if you need an interface anyway, that's a lot cheaper than building your own. 2011-06-08 08:40 ok I read this later, too many things going on! 2011-06-08 08:41 wolfspraul: remember..... NN has to move on... NN has to move on... NN has to move on... 2011-06-08 08:41 tuxbrain: (usb/wireless) sure. what i'm aiming at is that the problem is more general than just wireless. also, if you're already wireless, you may find it more convenient to use a real pc. 2011-06-08 08:42 tuxbrain: (ben as a human interface subsystem) sadly, the lack of design and manufacturing control over the keyboard is probably an issue. e.g., if the system needs to look "nice", you'd probably want a different layout. but nobody can deliver that. 2011-06-08 08:42 wpwrak: well depend on the aplication or the need of portability but whatever we have another product if you need a full laptop on your app, us AtUSB :) 2011-06-08 08:43 us-> use 2011-06-08 08:43 tuxbrain: i've actually been thinking about ways to turn the ben into a component of an embedded system. i don't see a way to do this nicely with the keyboard. but just the two pcbs would be possible. 2011-06-08 08:43 (atusb) yeah, there's no escaping us ;-) 2011-06-08 08:48 tuxbrain: i think, from the engineering side, we're well-set for working towards a ya that's an incremental improvement of the ben. we have the ben to use as a basis. we have development expertise with the ingenic cpus. as far as i can tell, these cpus aren't particularly nasty to integrate. 2011-06-08 08:49 tuxbrain: we probably (*) have a working open hw design process. (*) we'll find out when you get to test the wpan boards ;-) 2011-06-08 08:50 man need to go now, regarding the open hw desing yes, let's see if our friendly relationship not end with rage and fury when the fab panels arrive :P 2011-06-08 08:51 tuxbrain: we also have precedent for fairly successful community-driven design process, namely with gta02-core. wolfgang has good contacts to ingenic and probably other vendors that are useful to know. 2011-06-08 08:51 tuxbrain: sharism also has proven manufacturing contacts which are probably less expensive than your fabs. did you compare notes on that with wolfgang ? 2011-06-08 08:52 tuxbrain: what's the ETA for the panels ? 2011-06-08 08:52 wpwrak: today or tomorro 2011-06-08 08:53 whee ! :) 2011-06-08 08:53 make sure you have that oscilloscope ready :) 2011-06-08 08:54 wpwrak: also think I will be easy to find investors from my part with the promise I will mantain the production locally .. this is a point that if reach the production ready status must have in account 2011-06-08 08:54 wpwrak: osciloscope... this will be complicated, but I will try to do my best 2011-06-08 08:56 (local production) hmm. well, you don't have to explain to your investors too clearly what copyleft hardware means when it comes to keeping production local ;-) 2011-06-08 08:56 (scope) yo must know *someone* who has one ;-) or maybe find one on ebay for 10 EUR ;-) 2011-06-08 08:58 heh, that would be about the minimum that's probably sufficient ;-) http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-115269097-osciloscopio-funcionando-belgrano-_JM 2011-06-08 08:59 that's 1000 argentine pesos. about EUR 160 2011-06-08 09:00 well, 167. and here such things are at least 50% more expensive than elsewhere. so you should be able to find something for around EUR 100. 2011-06-08 09:05 wpwrak: beleiveme when I said Tuxbrain right now is on the edge and we can afford even such cost... I have to contact some friends to see their disponibility 2011-06-08 09:14 tuxbrain: inviting friends with scopes to share the production test experience is also a good idea :) 2011-06-08 09:16 wpwrak: won't 2.4G require quite an expensive scope? 2011-06-08 09:17 heheheh yeah but I think the procces will be as follow, me doing the the poor man test with atben/atusb form fab and discard those not covering the minimum crossing fingers that they are just a few, and taking this ones to my friend house and analize it. 2011-06-08 09:17 http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2011/06/06 ;-))) 2011-06-08 09:18 whitequark: it you want to measure the RF, yes :) what i'm after are things like the clock, which runs at 8 MHz 2011-06-08 09:19 wpwrak: ah yes, that's simpler then 2011-06-08 09:19 tuxbrain: yeah, people who have scopes may not want to take them out of their lab. 2011-06-08 09:20 I have this one http://www.syscompdesign.com/CGR101.html but you said is not enough 2011-06-08 09:22 tuxbrain: hmm. it's very borderline. the theoretical minimum for the sample rate to detect an 8 MHz signal would be 16 MHz. that one does 20 MHz. normally, you want something like 4-5x. 2011-06-08 09:23 tuxbrain: but if you have it, you may as well give it a try. plug in an semi-working atusb and see if you can measure the clock. 2011-06-08 09:24 tuxbrain: details are here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/prod/analysis.html#clock 2011-06-08 09:24 (4760) I have found this devel board, but not find a place to buy it ftp://ftp.ingenic.cn/2soc/4760/RD4760_LEPUS/RD4760_LEPUS-HW%201.3_EN.pdf 2011-06-08 09:25 larsc: do you know where one can get 4760 devel boards ? 2011-06-08 09:26 tuxbrain: (scope) if the scope shows a stable 8 MHz, you're good. if it shows major amplitude variations or a different frequency, then your sample rate is too low 2011-06-08 09:56 tuxbrain: an 8 MHz signal should look roughly like this on your 20 MSa/s scope: plot " (for gnuplot) 2011-06-08 09:57 (assuming no interpolation) 2011-06-08 10:49 wpwrak: i guess from ingenic 2011-06-08 11:01 larsc: ah, the obvious source then :) 2011-06-08 11:26 don't know, but maybe you need to order a few thousend SoCs to get one 2011-06-08 13:24 "alsamixer: function malloc failed: Success" ... 2011-06-08 14:56 Hi all 2011-06-08 14:57 hi 2011-06-08 15:45 wpwrak are you awake? 2011-06-08 15:46 of course :) 2011-06-08 15:46 the man who never sleeps 2011-06-08 15:47 wish to share a factoid re cost to go from FPGA to asic 2011-06-08 15:48 current cost is $20,000 USD. less than what I guessed 2011-06-08 15:48 where you get that number? 2011-06-08 15:49 I am working with a startup that is almost ready to do firt asic run. that is a real number 2011-06-08 15:49 s/firt/first 2011-06-08 15:51 20k is remarkably cheap indeed. do you have any idea how complex the chip is ? (e.g., what fpga they used, the structure width in the asic, etc.) 2011-06-08 15:52 ah, and clock speed. very important ;) 2011-06-08 15:53 indeed 2011-06-08 16:26 the design is fewer than 10K gates. the process is an older node, similar to what Ingenic uses. 2011-06-08 16:28 clock speed is less than 100Mhz 2011-06-08 16:29 okay, that's a pretty simple chip. clock speed is a bit less that what we'd want, too. 2011-06-08 16:29 just 10K ? what is that asic designed to do? 2011-06-08 16:30 yeah, looks better having a fpga with that speed.. 2011-06-08 16:31 kristianpaul: if they need lots of them, an asic would be cheaper. the price (20 k) is certainly attractive 2011-06-08 16:31 indeed 2011-06-08 16:32 now we need another data point. see how it scales ;-) 2011-06-08 16:49 yes need LOTS of them. the simplicity is a design objective. 2011-06-08 16:51 one wonders what the fisrt run of asic from Milkymist might cost. 2011-06-08 16:51 rjeffries: digitalizing pop corn ? one tiny little chip per ... duh, fluffily exploded kernel ;-) 2011-06-08 16:51 that FPGA is only $40 2011-06-08 16:52 the asic will be a lot cheaper then 2011-06-08 16:52 wpwrak when the time comes you'll understand 2011-06-08 16:52 do you think MM will cost $100,000 for the first pass to asic 2011-06-08 16:53 i don't really know how to calculate those prices. M1 is certainly a lot more complex. also with a huge number of I/Os. 2011-06-08 17:01 M1 supports some interaces that would not be needed in a general purpose SOC. 2011-06-08 17:08 oh, it doesn't matter what function the pins have. it's just their number. and memories tend to be the main consumer there. 2011-06-08 17:48 hi qiots ;) 2011-06-08 18:10 FusinÂ Â qiots -- what a lovely term. ;) 2011-06-08 18:11 it's (c) by Fusin 2011-06-08 18:12 which means: it's CopyLefted by me :P 2011-06-08 18:15 (â€ž) ? 2011-06-08 18:15 good idea wpwrakÂ Â :D 2011-06-08 18:16