2011-05-29 00:00 <wpwrak> the lcd cable does seem to be the main support issue that comes up here. so i think i'll keep those FPCs on my enemy list. alas, there's just no way of avoiding them when it comes to LCDs, na dparticularly not in hinged designs.
2011-05-29 00:00 <wpwrak> s/na d/and/
2011-05-29 00:01 <wpwrak> (no way of avoiding them) well ... almost. there are some oddball displays that have different means of attachment. not very relevant for this class of devices, though.
2011-05-29 00:02 <grunthus> Why not some sort of brush contact arrangement?
2011-05-29 00:02 <grunthus> (similar principle as in brush/commutator in motor)
2011-05-29 00:04 <wpwrak> hmm, contamination may be an issue there. also, probably complexity/size/cost.
2011-05-29 00:05 <kristianpaul> there are previous cases for contamination?
2011-05-29 00:05 <wpwrak> at least the FPCs are pretty much sealed in the areas where the mechanical action is.
2011-05-29 00:05 <kristianpaul> wich i wonder if at least should let the LCM misbehave not just kept off
2011-05-29 00:06 <grunthus> Looked like the FPC had ~12 connectors - could distribute over length of 'axle'?
2011-05-29 00:06 <wpwrak> grunthus: sounds big and expensive :)
2011-05-29 00:06 <grunthus> Another idea might be inductive loops in the hinge with pickup loops. Could these be small enough.
2011-05-29 00:07 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: how do you translte bitwise to spanish? (if is posible)
2011-05-29 00:07 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (contamination) there would be if there was a brush/sliding mechanism.
2011-05-29 00:07 <kristianpaul> i cant still get my mind to get that word..
2011-05-29 00:07 <grunthus> s/loop/coil
2011-05-29 00:08 <kristianpaul> having problems with pointers aganin :S
2011-05-29 00:09 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: bit por bit ? un bit a la vez ?
2011-05-29 00:09 <kristianpaul> hmm
2011-05-29 00:09 <wpwrak> grunthus: now it sounds very very expensive :) and also an EMI problem
2011-05-29 00:10 <grunthus> Oh dear. Hey, just get some of that new graphene stuff !!
2011-05-29 00:10 <wpwrak> grunthus: don't forget that the able also provides power. something like 100 mW (rough estimate, didn't look at the actual numbers)
2011-05-29 00:10 <wpwrak> s/able/cable/
2011-05-29 00:11 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (pointers) sucks not to have an MMU that turns a bad pointer simply into a segfault instead of a dead system, doesn't it ? :-)
2011-05-29 00:13 <wpwrak> grunthus: if you're planning to play with UBB and ubb-vga, that's something you could still do before sending back the ben. the lcd actually only gets in the way with ubb-vga :)
2011-05-29 00:14 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: you know my current suffering ;), but once i found root cause i should improve some skill i hope
2011-05-29 00:14 <grunthus> wpwrak: Ok, my last thought. A two core FPC or similar for power...
2011-05-29 00:14 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: oh wow, i dint knew it MMU helped on tha way, now i have a +1 for then
2011-05-29 00:15 <grunthus> Some sort of optical coupling for data transmission to LCD.
2011-05-29 00:15 <grunthus> IR LED/photodiode.
2011-05-29 00:15 <grunthus> coder/decoder, no idea how small that could be.
2011-05-29 00:15 <wpwrak> heh, a high-speed IR link could work :) but then, if you already have an FPC, might as well use it for everything
2011-05-29 00:16 <grunthus> Would a two core power FPC not be more robust than the type currently used?
2011-05-29 00:16 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: finally found a good aplication for IR? :_)
2011-05-29 00:17 <wpwrak> let's see ... 16 bits per pixel, 320 x 200 x 50 Hz, that's about 51 Mbps. doable.
2011-05-29 00:18 <wpwrak> (two core) a little, but probably not substantially enough to be worth the extra trouble of avoiding the remaining signals.
2011-05-29 00:32 <grunthus> Could you not bundle two core wire along with fibre optic for IR into a single slim plastic sheath? The screen could then be detachable (although I'm not sure why that would be useful) as well/instead of hinged. Would perhaps be more reliable than FPC?
2011-05-29 00:32 <grunthus> Maybe not. Getting a bit ridiculous perhaps.
2011-05-29 00:38 <grunthus> Bye for now, will be back when my replacement Ben arrives.
2011-05-29 00:38 <wpwrak> not sure if fiberoptics let along a copper+fiberoptics combo is really more reliable than just a copper FPC
2011-05-29 00:38 <wpwrak> s/along/alone/
2011-05-29 00:39 <wpwrak> also, the optical connection ought to be fun :)
2011-05-29 02:35 <kristianpaul> aggrg
2011-05-29 02:35 <kristianpaul> :-)
2011-05-29 02:35 <kristianpaul> well is sunday :-)
2011-05-29 05:19 <wolfspraul> viric: do you have a nice screenshot of nanonixos running on the Ben?
2011-05-29 05:19 <wolfspraul> I'm looking for something to include in the 06-01 community news http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2011-06-01
2011-05-29 07:00 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: do you remember where you got the music in your dirtpan video from?
2011-05-29 07:10 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i made it with my kaossilator. sound effect/program P97 :)
2011-05-29 07:10 <wolfspraul> oh
2011-05-29 07:11 <wolfspraul> this thing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korg_Kaossilator
2011-05-29 07:17 <wpwrak> yup, that's the one
2011-05-29 07:18 <wolfspraul> excellent, thanks
2011-05-29 07:25 <wolfspraul> ok, my first round of cleaning up the NanoNote section is finished
2011-05-29 07:25 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2011-06-01#NanoNote
2011-05-29 07:25 <wolfspraul> what's missing are a few more screenshots
2011-05-29 07:25 <wolfspraul> for VGA we have enough I think, I just need to collect them
2011-05-29 07:26 <wolfspraul> for nanonixos, Debian Wheezy, 05-22 image (xiangfu says another small update is coming 05-28 or so...), 4th, mplayer - not sure right now, hopefully I get some help
2011-05-29 07:26 <wolfspraul> I'll work a bit on the Milkymist section now :-)
2011-05-29 07:27 <wolfspraul> of course there may be more NanoNote stuff, things I overlooked, but this is a start
2011-05-29 07:39 <wpwrak> (vga) if you need any original (ungamma'ed, uncropped, unscaled) pictures, just let me know
2011-05-29 07:40 <wpwrak> (nanonote) soon (few more hours), i'll also have the documentation of the ben-wpan production test process
2011-05-29 07:53 <vladkorotnev> hello everyone :P
2011-05-29 07:57 <wolfspraul> vladkorotnev: hi
2011-05-29 07:58 <wolfspraul> ah true, we should mention ben-wpan production news
2011-05-29 07:58 <wolfspraul> well, I cleanup milkymist a bit first
2011-05-29 07:58 <vladkorotnev> wolfspraul: could you please point me at some SDIO libs for the NN?
2011-05-29 07:58 <wolfspraul> not really, because I don't know :-)
2011-05-29 07:59 <wolfspraul> you mean some library that allows you to read/write sdio commands from userspace?
2011-05-29 07:59 <wolfspraul> I have no idea, first see what the Linux kernel does about it...
2011-05-29 07:59 <wpwrak> ... or maybe it's bit-banging ... :)
2011-05-29 07:59 <vladkorotnev> wolfspraul: yes, or some beginner project to blink an LED with the NN :)
2011-05-29 08:00 <wpwrak> aha ! ben-blinkenlights then
2011-05-29 08:00 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/bbl
2011-05-29 08:00 <vladkorotnev> wpwrak: is it on Qi projects server?
2011-05-29 08:00 <vladkorotnev> oh thanks :)
2011-05-29 08:01 <vladkorotnev> so if I set the number of led's in the source to 1, I will get one blinking led? :P
2011-05-29 08:03 <wpwrak> well, what kind of hardware have you attached ? you typically have to customize your driver for whatever external circuit you've made
2011-05-29 08:03 <vladkorotnev> I'm gonna try that when golded finishes compiling. It is compiling for zoo long :P
2011-05-29 08:04 <wpwrak> e.g., the driver is for this one: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/ben-blinkenlights/pdf_head/bbl.pdf
2011-05-29 08:04 <wpwrak> (driver = bbl.c)
2011-05-29 08:04 <vladkorotnev> wpwrak: the same, but one led
2011-05-29 08:04 <vladkorotnev> between pins 1 and 8
2011-05-29 08:04 <wpwrak> hmm, i should clean up that stuff a little. move things into the subdirectory, and such
2011-05-29 08:05 <wpwrak> then setting the number of LEDs to one may indeed work.
2011-05-29 08:05 <vladkorotnev> wpwrak: also, are there UBB board files so I could make one at home :P?
2011-05-29 08:06 <wpwrak> of course: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/ubb
2011-05-29 08:07 <vladkorotnev> wpwrak: which format is it in?
2011-05-29 08:09 <wpwrak> it's for kicad bze version 2448; see also http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/source/tree/master/kicad-patches/README
2011-05-29 08:09 <wpwrak> s/bze/bzr/
2011-05-29 08:10 <vladkorotnev> oh, kicad is also available for mac, neat!
2011-05-29 08:12 <vladkorotnev> May I control a relay with this circuit as well?
2011-05-29 08:20 <wpwrak> if you have a relay that works with 3.3 V, you should be able to make a simple circuit that works, yes. you 
2011-05-29 08:20 <wpwrak> 'll need a transistor and protection diode, as usual.
2011-05-29 08:20 <wpwrak> the I/O lines only provide a nominal 4 mA, effectively maybe 10 mA, but VDD is good for some 100-200 mA.
2011-05-29 08:23 <vladkorotnev> thanks
2011-05-29 08:24 <wpwrak> e.g., a relay with a rated coil voltage of 3 Vdc should be okay. like this one: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=Z2758-ND
2011-05-29 08:26 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, a came across this nice list a few days ago: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Comparison_of_hardware_books
2011-05-29 08:26 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: never knew it existed. maybe you should introduce a "pimp oldies but goodies" section in the community news, and pimp it there ;-)
2011-05-29 08:28 <kyak> vladkorotnev: hi! try "opkg update; opkg install http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/luit_1.1.0-1_xburst.ipk". Then you can start your fido client as "luit -encoding 'KOI8-R' -- fidowtf" (while being in ash-rus)
2011-05-29 08:29 <wpwrak> vladkorotnev: or a little more fancy, with lower current: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=255-2856-ND
2011-05-29 08:47 <vladkorotnev> kyak: thanks
2011-05-29 08:47 <vladkorotnev> I'll try when it finishes compiling and I fix another PC
2011-05-29 08:59 <viric> wolfspraul: Ahm... the screenshot would be of prboom, or lynx running, or a normal shell. 
2011-05-29 08:59 <viric> wolfspraul: I don't know what could end up being representative.
2011-05-29 09:06 <wpwrak> for a text-only experience, does it have a nice banner message ? maybe run pstree
2011-05-29 09:11 <wolfspraul> viric: he, OK. no problem I just thought you had something like werner said a banner or so, but if not that's OK.
2011-05-29 09:33 <lunavorax_frizzl> Hey ! Other French people !
2011-05-29 09:35 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: ben-cyrillic: modified keymap http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/3065078
2011-05-29 09:40 <Ayla> morning
2011-05-29 09:40 <lunavorax_frizzl> Morning Ayla
2011-05-29 09:49 <viric> wolfspraul: maybe I should write some 'contact' in the page of nanonixos
2011-05-29 09:58 <viric> wpwrak: ah, there may be something representative, yes. I'll try to capture something
2011-05-29 09:58 <viric> I missed the line about what banner
2011-05-29 09:59 <viric> xiangfu: you can update offrss on openwrt, btw. :)
2011-05-29 09:59 <viric> xiangfu: 1.0 out
2011-05-29 10:14 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: offrss: update to 1.0 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/d0b6d45
2011-05-29 10:15 <xiangfu> viric ^ :)
2011-05-29 10:23 <viric> Great!
2011-05-29 10:23 <viric> thank you
2011-05-29 11:56 <qi-bot> [commit] David Kühling: new package: liballegro: a lightweight game and multimedia library http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4707057
2011-05-29 13:33 <qi-bot> The build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-05282011-1627/
2011-05-29 13:34 <xiangfu> qi-bot, good job :)
2011-05-29 13:36 <kyak> :)
2011-05-29 13:37 <kristianpaul> :-)
2011-05-29 13:38 <kyak> xiangfu: when do you plan to stop building backfire based images?
2011-05-29 13:39 <xiangfu> kyak, I will test 0528, if everything is fine (at least the Freedroid dvdk mentioned works fine) I will release the last 'backfire' openwrt release.
2011-05-29 13:39 <kyak> xiangfu: i see.. i think all patches from master have been put into trunk
2011-05-29 13:40 <xiangfu> then stop build 'backfire' release. switch to 'trunk' 100%, means we can move 'master' to release_2011-05-28
2011-05-29 13:40 <kyak> except for uboot patches.. not sure if they are necessary
2011-05-29 13:40 <xiangfu> kyak, yes. 
2011-05-29 13:40 <xiangfu> kyak, I will handle the uboot.
2011-05-29 13:40 <kyak> xiangfu: i updated the list a little bit http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Git#working_progress :)
2011-05-29 13:40 <kyak> there are 5 uboot related patches left
2011-05-29 13:41 <xiangfu> you moved the '0014-...' thanks.
2011-05-29 13:41 <kyak> that 0014 was not even required. It works already :)
2011-05-29 13:41 <xiangfu> kyak, yes. uboot. there is update in 'master', 'trunk' using a old version, but it's support n516, nanonote.
2011-05-29 13:41 <kyak> just the path a bit different
2011-05-29 13:43 <kyak> xiangfu: the path is /sys/devices/platform/spi_gpio.1/spi1.0/lcd/ili8960-lcd/brightness
2011-05-29 13:43 <xiangfu> kyak, thanks. :)
2011-05-29 14:45 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: opened it?
2011-05-29 14:46 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: (sorry, I never had the joy to touch a real wikireader, and the case changed a lot since I left the project, so no hints from my side)
2011-05-29 14:49 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: try /join #openmoko-cdevel - except here the best chances to find someone who knows about WR there
2011-05-29 14:55 <kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: (open) i'm planning to, you let me intriged about it
2011-05-29 14:55 <kristianpaul> ok
2011-05-29 14:57 <lunavorax_frizzl> Hum
2011-05-29 14:57 <lunavorax_frizzl> I have a question about bit-banging
2011-05-29 14:57 <lunavorax_frizzl> For the nanonote
2011-05-29 14:58 <lunavorax_frizzl> Is it possible to hook up (i suppose yes but anyway) to hook up motors and stuff and make an automatic bot with wheels controled by the nanonote ?
2011-05-29 14:58 <lunavorax_frizzl> Maybe the voltage is a little low but in theory.
2011-05-29 14:59 <kristianpaul> s/intriged/intrigued
2011-05-29 15:00 <kristianpaul> yes you can with proper motor driver and hopefully opto isolation just in case
2011-05-29 15:00 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: ascii-paint: fix build in trunk http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4771df5
2011-05-29 15:00 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: wordgrinder: fix build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c0acd5c
2011-05-29 15:00 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: libncurses-dev: fix build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/6ba1616
2011-05-29 15:00 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: dega: fix build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/8fdcc46
2011-05-29 15:00 <kristianpaul> lunavorax_frizzl: btw pololu is full of that driver stuff, afaik not open/free designs..
2011-05-29 15:02 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: (opto) depends on size of robot, maybe it's just not needed
2011-05-29 15:02 <DocScrutinizer> though for sure doesn't hurt ;-)
2011-05-29 15:02 <DocScrutinizer> except your BOM
2011-05-29 15:03 <DocScrutinizer> meego going FOSS hw, LOL
2011-05-29 15:05 <lunavorax_frizzl> DocScrutinizer, wasn't Meego already FOSS ? I'm confused
2011-05-29 15:05 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: If I connect qi-hw the-inc with meego-foss-hw-project (which allegedly has a sponsor). I have to insist in the senior EE part on your side ;-D
2011-05-29 15:05 <kristianpaul> FOSS hw? you mean FOSS as in freerunner? or copylefted?
2011-05-29 15:05 <lunavorax_frizzl> kristianpaul, ok, so I suppose the maximum voltage that the minisd card slot can output is 5v right ?
2011-05-29 15:05 <DocScrutinizer> unclear yet
2011-05-29 15:06 <DocScrutinizer> aiui as in FR
2011-05-29 15:07 <DocScrutinizer> meego-arm's future is all but bright - missing hw perspectives since Nokia sacked it
2011-05-29 15:07 <kristianpaul> lunavorax_frizzl: 3.3V
2011-05-29 15:08 <DocScrutinizer> so - as they are meego - they obviously thought "WE can do THAT!"
2011-05-29 15:09 <kristianpaul> lunavorax_frizzl: i think,
2011-05-29 15:09 <kristianpaul> lunavorax_frizzl: but anyway, thats not the point, as you'll just put a "driver" between nanonte and motors
2011-05-29 15:10 <kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: ah okay i know what you meant with the lol
2011-05-29 15:11 <lunavorax_frizzl> kristianpaul, so you mean there's already a software for that ?
2011-05-29 15:12 <kristianpaul> lunavorax_frizzl: nope there is not, but there are projects like Blinkenlights to look at examples about bitbang SDIO
2011-05-29 15:13 <kristianpaul> lunavorax_frizzl: also, i dont see too much complexity for driver a DC motor, no more that 2 lines for PWN and direction right?
2011-05-29 15:15 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: wolfspraul: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog
2011-05-29 15:17 <kristianpaul> cheers for guy who ported gottet!
2011-05-29 15:18 <kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: wich day should we look?
2011-05-29 15:18 <DocScrutinizer> current
2011-05-29 15:18 <DocScrutinizer> t0-25s ;-)
2011-05-29 15:18 <kristianpaul> :D
2011-05-29 15:25 <lunavorax_frizzl> kristianpaul, I don't know, I never coded anything that implies playing with the IO
2011-05-29 15:26 <lunavorax_frizzl> kristianpaul, I was also asking these question because I made a connection with that and what some people are doing when programming the parallel port to control robot stuffs.
2011-05-29 15:26 <kristianpaul> kinda same
2011-05-29 15:31 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: even stepper motors o real problem, there's even a nice collection of all-in-one driver chips
2011-05-29 15:33 <wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: well let's see what happens
2011-05-29 15:33 <lunavorax_frizzl> kristianpaul, anyway thanks for theses info :)
2011-05-29 15:33 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: sure. If you're interested at all, I'll keep you in
2011-05-29 15:33 <lunavorax_frizzl> kristianpaul, I'm just scared of screwing my hardware if I made a mistake while coding
2011-05-29 15:33 <wolfspraul> I'm very confident in our path here, if anything I regret that we can't speedup more on things like ben-wpan, the whole stack it needs, on the manufacturing side stuff like boom
2011-05-29 15:34 <wolfspraul> sure I'm interested, but let's see who that is, and what kind of expectations they have
2011-05-29 15:34 <DocScrutinizer> exactly, but also important to be there from T0
2011-05-29 15:35 <DocScrutinizer> it's always the foundation problems that bite your ass anytime later
2011-05-29 15:35 <wolfspraul> yes but it's also that people come and go, give up too fast, etc.
2011-05-29 15:35 <wolfspraul> no patience especially with manufacturing, which is where every successful hardware business better be rooted...
2011-05-29 15:36 <DocScrutinizer> and decisions like "where do we produce? Nokia fab | Qi" are sometimes early nad not reversible
2011-05-29 15:37 <DocScrutinizer> just had to ask if you're interested and I may keep you folks in mind when talking to them - you might as well say "MEH, meego. Nokia "
2011-05-29 15:37 <wolfspraul> where does our system level software come from? where do the RF stacks come from?
2011-05-29 15:37 <DocScrutinizer> I#m aware of those problems :-)
2011-05-29 15:37 <wolfspraul> I am doing copyleft hardware, as long as it fits that definition I'm interested, it's a net win for everybody.
2011-05-29 15:38 <wolfspraul> I wish we had much more investment in boom.
2011-05-29 15:38 <wolfspraul> also back to the KiCad server stuff, layout history, etc.
2011-05-29 15:38 <DocScrutinizer> ok, a clear statement. You're also not afraid of 10k volume
2011-05-29 15:38 <wolfspraul> a huge giant push on the whole ben-wpan problem
2011-05-29 15:38 <wolfspraul> no of course not
2011-05-29 15:38 <wolfspraul> you cannot do 10k with a new design anyway, you know that
2011-05-29 15:38 <wolfspraul> first 10, then 20, then 50, then 100, ...
2011-05-29 15:38 <DocScrutinizer> you know me ;-)
2011-05-29 15:39 <wolfspraul> but I've seen a lot of such 'promising talks'
2011-05-29 15:39 <DocScrutinizer> haha, too many actually
2011-05-29 15:39 <wolfspraul> this guy saying "I want to push OMAP" :-) oh oh :-)
2011-05-29 15:39 <wolfspraul> software people dreaming up hardware is always a lot of fun to watch
2011-05-29 15:39 <DocScrutinizer> fo rmeego-arm it's sane notion, as they already have something for OMAP
2011-05-29 15:40 <wolfspraul> sometimes their dreams are rooted straight in some chip maker's press releases
2011-05-29 15:40 <wolfspraul> sure, that may be. I'm just saying how I've seen these things developing in the past.
2011-05-29 15:40 <wolfspraul> chip maker X comes out with some fantastic press release
2011-05-29 15:40 <DocScrutinizer> yeah "sorry dudes, Samsung never will build this SoC"
2011-05-29 15:40 <wolfspraul> free software guru Y cannot really read to the end of the release, but is already dreaming up his 'open' device using this great chip
2011-05-29 15:41 <wolfspraul> argh
2011-05-29 15:41 <wolfspraul> there's like 10,000 things or more between such a 'chip maker press release' and a manufactured working device
2011-05-29 15:41 <wolfspraul> but whatever...
2011-05-29 15:41 <DocScrutinizer> OMAP3530 series is real
2011-05-29 15:41 <wolfspraul> yes of course
2011-05-29 15:41 <wolfspraul> OMAP are great chips
2011-05-29 15:42 <wolfspraul> did you get my point?
2011-05-29 15:42 <DocScrutinizer> sure
2011-05-29 15:42 <wolfspraul> I'm just saying I saw this kind of logic too often.
2011-05-29 15:42 <wolfspraul> so I'm now wary
2011-05-29 15:42 <DocScrutinizer> that's why I try to get in *early*
2011-05-29 15:42 <wolfspraul> hardware (manufacturing) is freaking difficult
2011-05-29 15:42 <DocScrutinizer> those sw dudes need some decent grounding
2011-05-29 15:42 <wolfspraul> and some people compare with a running train, high-speed train
2011-05-29 15:43 <wolfspraul> you cannot just design something and have the same system running at that speed
2011-05-29 15:43 <DocScrutinizer> wasn't that me? ;-)
2011-05-29 15:43 <DocScrutinizer> vaguely recalls all the nausea he felt with sean's decisions
2011-05-29 15:44 <wolfspraul> I'm not even sure we should attempt gsm, I guess it's 3g/lte nowadays, too soon
2011-05-29 15:44 <wolfspraul> I very much like the work Werner has been doing with ben-wpan
2011-05-29 15:44 <wolfspraul> we need to get that to work, software stack, produced and sold on the hardware side, later integrated into a more polished and cheaper product, etc.
2011-05-29 15:45 <wolfspraul> of course if an investor comes along and wants to lift this all to higher ground faster, sure, definitely interested
2011-05-29 15:45 <DocScrutinizer> well, my notion about wpan as a concept is somewhat less optimistic, but I agree on werner doing a damn good job there
2011-05-29 15:46 <wolfspraul> I think we cannot jump onto the 3g/lte train now.
2011-05-29 15:47 <wolfspraul> too difficult
2011-05-29 15:48 <wolfspraul> we = me :-)
2011-05-29 15:48 <wolfspraul> if someone else thinks they can, great
2011-05-29 15:49 <DocScrutinizer> I'm sure we'll get 'some' help with the cellmo side, you know it's still mae... err meego
2011-05-29 15:50 <DocScrutinizer> has scaring visions of daughterboards...
2011-05-29 15:54 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: I got the advantage of knowing probably 50% of those dudes since almost 2 years now. I to some degree know what they dream of and how to deal with those dreams and delusions
2011-05-29 15:55 <DocScrutinizer> and they know me and my sometimes rather grumpy cynical way, and must somehow tolerate it, otherwise they wouldn't contact me
2011-05-29 16:01 <wolfspraul> I'm interested in manufacturing stuff
2011-05-29 16:01 <wolfspraul> that includes sourcing, testing
2011-05-29 16:01 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: maegor ! ;-)
2011-05-29 16:01 <wolfspraul> if I do it, it's going to be 100% free and open documented
2011-05-29 16:02 <wolfspraul> if it's real, and we can get some money, the #1 person to employ would be Werner :-) so we can beef up boom and other goodies
2011-05-29 16:02 <wolfspraul> that's just my thinking
2011-05-29 16:02 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: I've been posting almost same wording same second to laterego
2011-05-29 16:02 <wpwrak> likes that thinking ;-)
2011-05-29 16:03 <DocScrutinizer> the problem is the investor wants to see some ROI
2011-05-29 16:03 <DocScrutinizer> at least break even ;-)
2011-05-29 16:04 <wolfspraul> why is that a problem?
2011-05-29 16:05 <wolfspraul> every normal business accepts some kind of risk, and that risk is what makes it profitable later
2011-05-29 16:06 <wolfspraul> what kind of risk does this investor want to take? what does he believe in?
2011-05-29 16:06 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, when talking to potential sponsors/investors interested in openness, something like this may be useful: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/achieve.pdf
2011-05-29 16:06 <wolfspraul> something like "if I had something like the iPhone, I could imagine investing 10 million USD", that's not going to cut it
2011-05-29 16:08 <wolfspraul> because in that thinking 'iphone' includes everything from hardware design, to software development reaching back 10 years, to retail chain, to established global supply chain, to itunes/app store, to to to to
2011-05-29 16:08 <wolfspraul> so that's stupid. if you want that, you better have a few billion to invest, over many years. and then its' actually better to make a much smaller step first, and make that profitable, and then do the second step.
2011-05-29 16:09 <wolfspraul> if the investor is _purely_ interested in financials, I doubt this will work either
2011-05-29 16:10 <wpwrak> indeed. e.g., make a ya first, with a properly open process. then use that process for harder targets.
2011-05-29 16:10 <wolfspraul> there are very profitable investments in the financial world, you never need to leave it to make a lot of money
2011-05-29 16:10 <wolfspraul> so that's why I'm asking about "which risk" the investor wants to take, and what he believes will take off/justify the investment
2011-05-29 16:10 <wpwrak> the financial world is a bit our problem. if you just want to make money, why even bother with production ?
2011-05-29 16:10 <wolfspraul> we see...
2011-05-29 16:11 <wolfspraul> oh sure, of course
2011-05-29 16:11 <wolfspraul> you don't :-)
2011-05-29 16:11 <wolfspraul> so there needs to be someone who wants (!) to take on production risks
2011-05-29 16:11 <wolfspraul> marketing risks
2011-05-29 16:11 <wolfspraul> software development risks
2011-05-29 16:11 <wolfspraul> and so on
2011-05-29 16:12 <wolfspraul> quite a lot in such a little smartphone :-)
2011-05-29 16:12 <wpwrak> so what sort of romantic notion would we have to appeal to then ? considering that we've already established that it's not very interesting financially
2011-05-29 16:12 <wolfspraul> no I think it may be interesting financially
2011-05-29 16:12 <wolfspraul> risk = profit
2011-05-29 16:12 <wolfspraul> we have plenty of risks, no?
2011-05-29 16:12 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-05-29 16:12 <wpwrak> oh, you can get the craziest risks in finance, too
2011-05-29 16:13 <wolfspraul> but an investor who just looks at money, x USD today, x+y USD in z months, that will not work
2011-05-29 16:13 <wolfspraul> because if that's his thinking, he will not want to take on risks outside of financial products
2011-05-29 16:13 <wolfspraul> yes [finance risk] - those are for the purely financial investors then
2011-05-29 16:14 <wolfspraul> that's my point, we need to understand the thinking behind DocScrutinizer's/meego's idea
2011-05-29 16:14 <wolfspraul> the fact that the investor wants to make his money back is only logical
2011-05-29 16:14 <wolfspraul> of course. from device sales?
2011-05-29 16:14 <wolfspraul> there are so many ways to make money back
2011-05-29 16:15 <wolfspraul> carrier subsidies
2011-05-29 16:15 <wolfspraul> app store sales
2011-05-29 16:15 <wolfspraul> advertisements in free apps
2011-05-29 16:15 <wolfspraul> too many
2011-05-29 16:15 <wolfspraul> need to understand the investor
2011-05-29 16:15 <DocScrutinizer> re, sorry
2011-05-29 16:15 <DocScrutinizer> reading backscroll
2011-05-29 16:15 <wolfspraul> I'm looking at this just from a manufacturing perspective
2011-05-29 16:15 <wolfspraul> my risk is yield
2011-05-29 16:15 <wolfspraul> I take that
2011-05-29 16:16 <wolfspraul> I can sell for bom + x%
2011-05-29 16:34 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: how do you like the table ? "manufacturing" needs a bit of expanding and things like sourcing and such are missing, too (may be too much detail, though)
2011-05-29 16:35 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: aiui and what he told me, the investor has to be interested in a meego development device with a longer product lifecycle (and support - and perspective)  than N900. This investor is probably involved with meego (intel? some affiliated inc?) and they want to break even, ROI a nice-to-have but not mandatory
2011-05-29 16:38 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: the device in spe is clearly labeled as a meego-developer-device, with phone and data connectivity aiui
2011-05-29 16:38 <DocScrutinizer> omap3, potentially omap4
2011-05-29 16:39 <DocScrutinizer> depending on risk evaluation. Product requirement spec next ToDo
2011-05-29 16:40 <DocScrutinizer> my main concern atm is whether investor is aware at all about the 5..6 after the USD10^
2011-05-29 16:43 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I like it, let me dwell over it tomorrow
2011-05-29 16:44 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: meego-arm aka handset-UX projext is at a dead end with their options for hw. No main manuf seems to jump on this train, while Nokia effectively binned all their plans
2011-05-29 16:44 <wolfspraul> how did Intel do their smartphone prototypes?
2011-05-29 16:44 <DocScrutinizer> dunno, do they have any that really work? :-P
2011-05-29 16:44 <wolfspraul> no but I'm sure there were small runs etc.
2011-05-29 16:45 <wolfspraul> the usual stuff
2011-05-29 16:45 <DocScrutinizer> you're not talking about that x86-phones? 
2011-05-29 16:45 <wolfspraul> yes, those
2011-05-29 16:45 <DocScrutinizer> eeew
2011-05-29 16:45 <DocScrutinizer> reportedly a major fail
2011-05-29 16:45 <wolfspraul> because you say 'Intel'
2011-05-29 16:45 <wolfspraul> sure, but someone must have made some prototypes
2011-05-29 16:45 <wolfspraul> anyway you know it all, you just talk and see what happens
2011-05-29 16:46 <DocScrutinizer> intel isn't short of R&D and manufacturing facilities of arbitrary scale
2011-05-29 16:46 <DocScrutinizer> I did talk all the time, that's why this delay here
2011-05-29 16:46 <DocScrutinizer> of my answers
2011-05-29 16:46 <wolfspraul> ah, don't say that. to put together something as exotic (for them) as a smartphone the best choice may be an outside small firm
2011-05-29 16:47 <DocScrutinizer> that's what I think we see happening here
2011-05-29 16:47 <DocScrutinizer> mere handwaving
2011-05-29 16:48 <wolfspraul> alright I'll read the backlog tomorrow, have to go sleep now
2011-05-29 16:49 <DocScrutinizer> it's more economical for intel to get a working meego-arm and port it to any future x86-phone or whatever they decide to sell for SoC to their customers, than to do all the development of hanset UX and kernel and whatnot on their own
2011-05-29 16:49 <DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: cya
2011-05-29 16:52 <DocScrutinizer> so throw a few megabucks at some "fool" to do the heavy lifting for you, while the name Intel doesn't show up anywhere (low risk for corporate reputation etc). Let them use whatever they like - after all they probably are better with Nokia than you'd be with your intel businesscard
2011-05-29 16:53 <DocScrutinizer> and in the end you got a much easier to kill or buyout competitor in the end, when you start to sell your intel-phones, than it'd be when Nokia did that
2011-05-29 16:55 <DocScrutinizer> intel and M$ are friends. Nokia and M$ are friens now. How's Intel explain they go for meego instead of winP7 for their phones :-)
2011-05-29 16:56 <DocScrutinizer> I thing the air is burning between Nokia and Intel
2011-05-29 16:56 <DocScrutinizer> think*
2011-05-29 16:57 <DocScrutinizer> NB last meegoconf beginning of last week (7 days ago) had *not a single* official Nokia speaker, not a single Nokia desk afaik
2011-05-29 17:00 <DocScrutinizer> and last thing rumour had about that 'meego device' Nokia promised for this year: it's a phone running a severely crippled/mod-o-fied *maemo* v6 aka harmattan OS, and meego board refused to allow Nokia to call it 'Meego'
2011-05-29 17:01 <DocScrutinizer> so odds are everybody's severely pissed right now
2011-05-29 17:04 <DocScrutinizer> Intel doesn't want to take the "risk" to build phones with meego. Nokia "mustn't". What's left to save the meego idea? Outsource it
2011-05-29 17:05 <DocScrutinizer> you know FSF is third man on board of meego. So chances for a copyleft hw manuf are good I'd think
2011-05-29 17:06 <DocScrutinizer> err, FSF?
2011-05-29 17:06 <DocScrutinizer> sorry, I need some minutes to finally wake up
2011-05-29 17:23 <kristianpaul> FSF? really 
2011-05-29 17:24 <kristianpaul> well at least then could rise funds from somwhere.. dont you think?
2011-05-29 17:35 <kodein> wasn't LG sort of interested?
2011-05-29 17:37 <DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: s/FSF/ http://www.linuxfoundation.org/
2011-05-29 17:37 <kristianpaul> ahh
2011-05-29 17:38 <kristianpaul> that changes everything 
2011-05-29 17:38 <DocScrutinizer> kodein: there were rumours, yes
2011-05-29 17:39 <DocScrutinizer> no device in vicinity anyway
2011-05-29 17:40 <DocScrutinizer> also you'd not know how much of an *open* device that'd be
2011-05-29 17:40 <kodein> it's not really like there seems to be a device in the vicinity from anyone else either, though
2011-05-29 17:41 <DocScrutinizer> seems meego handset UX ran into the obvious obstacle of closed hw and missing drivers, after all
2011-05-29 17:41 <DocScrutinizer> kodein: that's the whole point of my epic monologue
2011-05-29 17:47 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/index.hmac: make items in definition list stick out more http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/208663c
2011-05-29 17:47 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: dropped f32xbase dependency on Makefile.common http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/45746fd
2011-05-29 17:47 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: reduced excessive use of <B> ... </B> http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/8b26bb7
2011-05-29 17:47 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: cleanup and clarifications after proofreading http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/46b15ef
2011-05-29 17:47 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/: completed section on component orientation (with pictures) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a662410
2011-05-29 17:48 <wpwrak> anyone care to proofread my production/testing description before i announce it on the list ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/prod/
2011-05-29 17:48 <wpwrak> some things are still missing, but the process should be good enough to avert major surprises
2011-05-29 17:50 <DocScrutinizer> I *should* do this, alas I'm about to have some >breakfast<... after ~48h
2011-05-29 17:52 <wpwrak> reading while eating should work great ;-)
2011-05-29 17:52 <DocScrutinizer> not when I have to leave to find sth to eat
2011-05-29 17:53 <wpwrak> ah, always keep supplies :)
2011-05-29 17:53 <DocScrutinizer> btw why the red dots at "components" in http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/achieve.pdf ?
2011-05-29 17:53 <DocScrutinizer> (run out of supplies like 3 days ago)
2011-05-29 17:54 <DocScrutinizer> glares at the one black banana over there
2011-05-29 17:55 <DocScrutinizer> seems to me like they don't conserve as long as they used to do
2011-05-29 17:56 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: (red dots) documentation of the SoC not publicly available. publicly but not redistributable docs would be yellow. redistributable docs (or self-made chip ;-) green.
2011-05-29 17:57 <DocScrutinizer> aaah, I thought in terms of BOM
2011-05-29 17:58 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-05-29 18:27:54] <DocScrutinizer> available datasheets for all the chips
2011-05-29 17:58 <DocScrutinizer> [2011-05-29 18:28:17] <DocScrutinizer> (watch out, that's a really tricky point!)
2011-05-29 17:58 <DocScrutinizer> (/me explaining concepts of open hw to meego-phone dude)
2011-05-29 17:59 <wpwrak> yes yes, imprtant point, as we all know :)
2011-05-29 18:00 <DocScrutinizer> I told him that's a prerequisite for Qi-hw to be interested
2011-05-29 18:00 <DocScrutinizer> maybe I've been to fundamental?
2011-05-29 18:01 <DocScrutinizer> too even
2011-05-29 18:01 <wpwrak> i bit. de facto available is tolerable if we have no other choice (e.g. ingenic)
2011-05-29 18:02 <DocScrutinizer> He'll come back with news - or not
2011-05-29 18:03 <DocScrutinizer> I just tried to make utterly clear when building hw the first ones to join the talk are the EE and manufs - otherwise FAIL
2011-05-29 18:04 <DocScrutinizer> where munuf here == the dudes to do the sourcing, assembling, PCB building etc
2011-05-29 18:04 <wpwrak> yeah. well, little risk on our side for marketing and design to start negotiations, eh ? ;-)
2011-05-29 18:05 <DocScrutinizer> sure
2011-05-29 22:38 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: prod/doc/analysis.html: typo and small language fix http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/40d78b2