2011-05-05 11:24 <steve|m> did you guys get the opencores newsletter?
2011-05-05 11:25 <steve|m> "Worlds first true open-source OpenRISC processorASIC"
2011-05-05 11:26 <steve|m> http://opencores.org/donation
2011-05-05 11:36 <kristianpaul> donate milkymist ;)!
2011-05-05 11:53 <lekernel> steve|m: this is bullshit, please do not propagate it
2011-05-05 11:54 <lekernel> see opensparc and leon for open source processors of much better quality than openrisc, which were made into ASICs, and did not trigger the announced revolution
2011-05-05 12:29 <steve|m> lekernel: thanks for sharing your opinion
2011-05-05 13:13 <wolfspraul> steve|m: we need creative ideas how we market, or tell the story, of the Milkymist SoC and Milkymist One video synthesizer
2011-05-05 13:13 <wolfspraul> any ideas?
2011-05-05 13:14 <wolfspraul> unfortunately when you do really pioneering stuff like Milkymist, and the same is true for the opencores donation call, it's super hard to find the right line between wishful thinking/fairy tales, and down-to-earth stories that are not too boring on the other hand...
2011-05-05 13:14 <wolfspraul> I'm still struggling with this
2011-05-05 13:14 <wolfspraul> Milkymist is a GPL licensed SoC
2011-05-05 13:15 <wolfspraul> that's a cool thing. there are others but I think in terms of really making it work in a practial way, Milkymist may be 'the best'
2011-05-05 13:15 <wolfspraul> then there is work on free synthesis tools, llhdl/antares. That's extremely interesting too, but still work-in-progress and needs serious contributors.
2011-05-05 13:16 <wolfspraul> and there is Milkymist One, a video synthesizer we are selling for 499 USD. What's the point of a 'video synthesizer'?
2011-05-05 13:18 <wolfspraul> steve|m: have you read the new Milkymist wikipedia page? I think it's really good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkymist
2011-05-05 13:19 <wolfspraul> you posted about the opencores donation call. what do you think about it? did you donate? would you buy such a chip? for what product?
2011-05-05 13:19 <wolfspraul> sorry so many questions :-) thinking about this stuff...
2011-05-05 13:54 <mth> wolfspraul: I know a VJ: Julian from The C-men
2011-05-05 13:55 <mth> he plays chiptunes with live mixed video containing images from 80s games and demos
2011-05-05 13:55 <mth> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lrO46EjBto
2011-05-05 13:55 <mth> not exactly a lively croud, but it does show both the result and the mixing taking place
2011-05-05 13:56 <mth> I could ask if he's interested in giving some feedback?
2011-05-05 13:57 <wolfspraul> of course, that would be fantastic!
2011-05-05 14:03 <lekernel> wolfspraul: for the LGM PR, we can title it with something like "Sneak peek at the upcoming Milkymist video synthesizer shown at LGM"
2011-05-05 14:04 <lekernel> then we are free to talk about many topics in the body
2011-05-05 14:14 <wolfspraul> hmm, ok. I need to start this asap then fill in details with jon...
2011-05-05 14:14 <lekernel> wolfspraul: let's not publicize llhdl/antares too much yet. first they do not work today, second they might irritate xilinx a bit (probably not much, though).
2011-05-05 14:15 <lekernel> in the end I don't think much good would come from such a PR, except people asking me all the time when it's going to work or proposing tons of ideas in endless discussions
2011-05-05 14:15 <lekernel> plus the usual trolls on the FPGA companies
2011-05-05 14:15 <lekernel> later, we should definitely do it though
2011-05-05 14:16 <wolfspraul> understood
2011-05-05 14:16 <wolfspraul> mth: 17 views for that video!
2011-05-05 14:17 <wolfspraul> you can ask him right away about how we all gain much more visibility for this kind of work
2011-05-05 14:17 <wolfspraul> I'm still downloading (caching) the video, super slow vpn link...
2011-05-05 14:43 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: the link probably gets slower with every keyword they add to the list of forbidden words ;-)
2011-05-05 14:58 <wolfspraul> steve|m: just got the opencores newsletter. I pick one thing, quoting
2011-05-05 14:58 <wolfspraul> "Some of us who have worked for Semiconductor companies have seen the large margins and the large price differences depending if you were a large customer with many different products, or if you are a smaller company with a great new product. Since price always is important , it is today almost impossible to compete with large companies even if you have a "better" product."
2011-05-05 14:58 <wolfspraul> I don't understand how they came to this conclusion.
2011-05-05 14:59 <wolfspraul> I know a lot about IC prices, availability, moq, etc. I just don't see it that way.
2011-05-05 15:01 <wolfspraul> but it's very hard to discuss these things because there are so many moving targets and numbers. Maybe they should give us an example :-)
2011-05-05 15:01 <wolfspraul> which chip they had trouble sourcing, and they think they can make cheaper now...
2011-05-05 15:03 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: well, there are chips you can't get easily in a usable condition (that is, also with the documentation you need to make them work). think of telephony or even wlan. not sure if that's what they mean, though.
2011-05-05 15:03 <wolfspraul> but even that is wrong
2011-05-05 15:03 <wolfspraul> if you look at digikey, where are they weak?
2011-05-05 15:04 <lekernel> wolfspraul: opencores is 99% bullshit
2011-05-05 15:04 <wpwrak> there are no such chips at digi-key :)
2011-05-05 15:04 <wolfspraul> nand (well, you would never buy that anyway, right? :-)), memory, rf ics, baseband, also weak on image sensors afaik
2011-05-05 15:04 <lekernel> also they claim to be a 'community' while it's only 2 or 3 people at ORSoC making all the decisions and you only hear about them when all is said and done
2011-05-05 15:05 <wolfspraul> I think you will have trouble getting a 16 GB nand chip, Intel/Samsung/Toshiba, from digikey
2011-05-05 15:05 <wolfspraul> or an MTK anything
2011-05-05 15:05 <wolfspraul> but...
2011-05-05 15:05 <wolfspraul> that's only digikey
2011-05-05 15:05 <wolfspraul> there are myriads of smaller distributors all over Asia
2011-05-05 15:06 <wolfspraul> starting to work with them is itself a lot of work though, so maybe some people stop at digikey?
2011-05-05 15:06 <wpwrak> for things like baseband, the problem is also documentation. they won't give you that either. (well, unless you put a lot of money on the table.) so even if you find the chips on the secondary market, you'll have a hard time using them.
2011-05-05 15:06 <wolfspraul> fair enough, but opencores does not talk about documentation
2011-05-05 15:06 <lekernel> the views expressed in that newsletter are only these of those 2-3 ORSoC people
2011-05-05 15:06 <lekernel> nothing more
2011-05-05 15:06 <wolfspraul> lekernel: sure, I know
2011-05-05 15:06 <wolfspraul> I just try to respond to some specific thing they say.
2011-05-05 15:06 <wpwrak> and yes, some people probably simply don't know how to do sourcing ;-)
2011-05-05 15:07 <wolfspraul> I really massively do not agree with that statement.
2011-05-05 15:07 <wolfspraul> whatever they do will be phenomenally more expensive than if they had just bought it
2011-05-05 15:07 <lekernel> if you start reading more of the crap that gets published by ORSoC under the name opencores.org, you'll probably find tons of stuff to disagree with
2011-05-05 15:07 <wolfspraul> if they really think there are some 'evil' big corps that are scheming against the small guys
2011-05-05 15:08 <wolfspraul> it's not true
2011-05-05 15:08 <lekernel> yeah but it's romantic and it gives them something to say
2011-05-05 15:08 <wolfspraul> sure
2011-05-05 15:09 <lekernel> maybe it covers up their failures too, so they can sleep in peace
2011-05-05 15:09 <wolfspraul> well I'm a bit old fashioned here, we have a responsibility to accurately report our findings.
2011-05-05 15:09 <wolfspraul> otherwise we cannot improve
2011-05-05 15:10 <wolfspraul> and that paragraph I don't like. they claim to speak from experience, and say there is this 'big corps get large discounts' thing they discovered.
2011-05-05 15:10 <wolfspraul> but it's wrong
2011-05-05 15:10 <wolfspraul> it's a bad misrepresentation of reality
2011-05-05 15:10 <lekernel> you know, those orsoc guys live in a very bizarre world
2011-05-05 15:11 <wolfspraul> so they are failing on their leadership
2011-05-05 15:11 <lekernel> a bit like those conspiration theory advocates
2011-05-05 15:11 <lekernel> oh, they are failing on tons of things
2011-05-05 15:11 <wolfspraul> yes, fine. but either there is a conspiracy or not :-)
2011-05-05 15:11 <lekernel> the only thing they do approximately right is attract attention
2011-05-05 15:11 <wolfspraul> someone may read this letter, or this channel, and really just don't know
2011-05-05 15:11 <wolfspraul> "is there such a thing?"
2011-05-05 15:12 <wolfspraul> "are large corps really conspiring against the small guys?"
2011-05-05 15:12 <wolfspraul> "is that what we have to fix for our break-through?"
2011-05-05 15:12 <wolfspraul> so my answer is: no
2011-05-05 15:12 <wolfspraul> someone can listen to me or not, but that's my answer :-)
2011-05-05 15:12 <wpwrak> well, there are exclusive deals. e.g., you probably can't get exactly the socs apple use. not sure if this is an issue to get excited about, though :)
2011-05-05 15:12 <lekernel> wolfspraul: you could spend days finding things to disagree with in the orsoc world
2011-05-05 15:12 <wolfspraul> that's not the thing that holds us down, or stops the 'revolution' :-)
2011-05-05 15:13 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: Apple SoCs!
2011-05-05 15:13 <wolfspraul> they hired 200+ IC designers
2011-05-05 15:13 <lekernel> if you like this kind of thing, you can also read stuff like reopen911, abovetopsecret, etc.
2011-05-05 15:13 <wolfspraul> of course yes, ahem, the 'large guys' (apple) is 'conspiring' against the small guys (everybody else) by not giving away the results of their hard work
2011-05-05 15:13 <wolfspraul> but that's not what orsoc means
2011-05-05 15:14 <wolfspraul> they are not advocating piracy
2011-05-05 15:14 <wolfspraul> lekernel: yes sure, we are on the same page, no worries :-)
2011-05-05 15:14 <wolfspraul> that one feedback is all I'll do to digest the newsletter :-)
2011-05-05 15:14 <wolfspraul> no it's important for us to realize - there is no such conspiracy
2011-05-05 15:15 <wolfspraul> yes, of course, if you buy a chip 10 times, the unit price will be higher than if you buy the same chip 100 times, or 1000 times
2011-05-05 15:15 <wolfspraul> but the increases for lower order sizes are very reasonable
2011-05-05 15:16 <wolfspraul> and the amount of investment you (!) need to make when scaling up your run (getting yield under control) will be far higher anyway
2011-05-05 15:16 <wolfspraul> anyway...
2011-05-05 15:16 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-05-05 15:16 <wolfspraul> I see bigger price differences in mechanical parts actually
2011-05-05 15:17 <wolfspraul> a Molex ethernet connector may cost 8 USD, but a Taiwanese one only 1 USD
2011-05-05 15:17 <wolfspraul> maybe I find out more about that one day, the differences in mechanical parts still seem extreme to me, showing how little I know about mechanical parts...
2011-05-05 15:18 <wolfspraul> the Chinese one would probably cost 20 cents, but start to rust after 2 weeks...
2011-05-05 15:18 <kristianpaul> is a display considered mechanical part as well?
2011-05-05 15:19 <wolfspraul> I'd call that a module
2011-05-05 15:19 <wolfspraul> quite a few things inside
2011-05-05 15:20 <wolfspraul> the mechanical part I'd say is only the casing
2011-05-05 15:20 <kristianpaul> how fair are prices for modules?
2011-05-05 15:20 <wolfspraul> if you take one apart, you will see the various layers inside
2011-05-05 15:20 <kristianpaul> ah ok
2011-05-05 15:20 <wolfspraul> same
2011-05-05 15:20 <wolfspraul> sourcing is extremely competitive!
2011-05-05 15:20 <wolfspraul> if you think sourcing = digikey, then something is massively wrong with you
2011-05-05 15:20 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-05-05 15:21 <wolfspraul> you can buy all sorts of lcm modules, at good prices even in low quantities
2011-05-05 15:21 <wolfspraul> but you need to find the proper distributor
2011-05-05 15:21 <wolfspraul> and if you order low quantities, you will have very little say over EOL, for example
2011-05-05 15:21 <kristianpaul> s/sourcing/hunting then ;)
2011-05-05 15:21 <wolfspraul> when the product is discontinued
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> not really, it's just thousands and thousands of companies doing this
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> for example the LCM for NanoNote
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> Giantplus
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> we buy from a distributor in Shenzhen
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> not street market
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> proper distributor with office etc.
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> anybody can buy there
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> they focus on the money, not on who you are
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> guaranteed
2011-05-05 15:22 <wolfspraul> moq is 12 pieces, that's 1 tray
2011-05-05 15:22 <kristianpaul> nice :-)
2011-05-05 15:23 <wolfspraul> they rather sell you a whole box, easier for shipping. 1 box = 12 trays = 12*12 = 144 pieces
2011-05-05 15:23 <wolfspraul> but 1 tray also ok, they will wrap it for you
2011-05-05 15:23 <wolfspraul> they ship worldwide
2011-05-05 15:23 <wolfspraul> and so on
2011-05-05 15:23 <wolfspraul> what's the problem?
2011-05-05 15:23 <wpwrak> (digi-key) for chips, digi-key seems pretty okay. mechanical things or modules are an entirely different story, though ...
2011-05-05 15:23 <wolfspraul> yes
2011-05-05 15:23 <kristianpaul> hmm so if in 10 years i may get a lcm replacement for my nanonote? or should i order spare parts today?
2011-05-05 15:23 <wolfspraul> but sourcing != digikey
2011-05-05 15:24 <wolfspraul> there are THOUSANDS of electronic parts distributors
2011-05-05 15:24 <kristianpaul> thats shopping, totally different tpoic i think (digikey)
2011-05-05 15:24 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: it's a fairly common model, but I don't know how long you can really get just that one
2011-05-05 15:25 <wolfspraul> finding that giantplus distributor was a bit hard btw
2011-05-05 15:25 <wolfspraul> we couldn't find them in shenzhen itself, city is too big and too chaotic
2011-05-05 15:25 <wolfspraul> so had to call Giantplus Taiwan and claim that we wanted to buy 3k
2011-05-05 15:25 <kristianpaul> hehe
2011-05-05 15:25 <wolfspraul> that's the minimum where their sales rep will continue to talk to you, and everybody just claims 3k
2011-05-05 15:25 <wolfspraul> then they give you the contact of their distributor in shenzhen
2011-05-05 15:26 <wolfspraul> and there you can buy 1 tray
2011-05-05 15:26 <kristianpaul> so find distributors is based on social interaction?
2011-05-05 15:26 <wolfspraul> absolutely
2011-05-05 15:26 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: maybe that's the problem of openrisc: they don't know when they're supposed to lie ;-)
2011-05-05 15:26 <wolfspraul> there are many distributors all competing with each other
2011-05-05 15:28 <wolfspraul> calling it a day
2011-05-05 15:28 <wolfspraul> sourcing is very diverse
2011-05-05 15:29 <kristianpaul> china distributors jungle :-)
2011-05-05 15:29 <wolfspraul> opencores talks about chips (semiconductors), that's actually easy because well standardized
2011-05-05 15:29 <wolfspraul> modules are probably hardest
2011-05-05 15:29 <wpwrak> particularly if you can customize them ...
2011-05-05 15:29 <kristianpaul> wonder if there are street market for chip fabbing
2011-05-05 15:29 <wolfspraul> not just CHina, it's exactly the same in Taiwan, and I would think Korea and Japan too, although I have little/no experience there
2011-05-05 15:29 <kristianpaul> ok
2011-05-05 15:30 <wolfspraul> what I did see is that sometimes the 'big corps' are settling IP fights among their customers
2011-05-05 15:30 <wolfspraul> but that's an entirely different subject
2011-05-05 15:30 <wolfspraul> and if they do that, they have to be very careful to not be dragged into some bad activity, that may even get them big cartel fines etc.
2011-05-05 15:31 <wolfspraul> but actually a small guy would be way under the radar for this kind of thing
2011-05-05 15:31 <wolfspraul> that's also not what opencores means
2011-05-05 15:31 <kristianpaul> hum..
2011-05-05 15:31 <wolfspraul> like Sebastien said - they are just a bit romantic :-)
2011-05-05 15:31 <wolfspraul> we should leave that to them
2011-05-05 15:31 <wolfspraul> hail the revolution!
2011-05-05 15:33 <wpwrak> opencores - a cleverly arranged diversion ;-)
2011-05-05 15:36 <lekernel> wpwrak: actually I don't think opencores has always been like that
2011-05-05 15:37 <kristianpaul> how old is opecores btw
2011-05-05 15:38 <lekernel> was founded by http://www.lampret.com/ who then abandoned it, and the domain name and website were transferred to ORSoC AB, some small Swedish consultancy (not sure under what terms) who are now super anal retentive about everything and say and do a lot of crap
2011-05-05 15:39 <lekernel> btw all the donation money goes directly to that company (not to the "opencores community") without any control
2011-05-05 15:40 <kristianpaul> bad thing
2011-05-05 15:40 <wpwrak> now there's an interesting concept. how about openclubbing to lekernel's account ? :)
2011-05-05 15:40 <kristianpaul> lol
2011-05-05 15:43 <lekernel> openclubbing?
2011-05-05 15:44 <wpwrak> something nice and broad that's a superset of vjing
2011-05-05 15:49 <kristianpaul> ah, i tought you mean transfer opencores domain to lekernel ;)
2011-05-05 15:50 <wpwrak> that's an even weirder idea ;-)
2011-05-05 15:51 <wpwrak> well, when he finishes llhdl, maybe they'll offer him the domain as a form of tribute ;-)
2011-05-05 15:55 <lekernel> hahaha
2011-05-05 15:55 <lekernel> in your dreams
2011-05-05 15:56 <lekernel> they're control freaks. they hold back every little they have, that is, some public visibility which includes that domain name.
2011-05-05 15:56 <lekernel> and they give little shit about stuff like llhdl
2011-05-05 15:57 <lekernel> (I'm speaking only about the ORSoC leaders here, not the wider Opencores community nor all ORSoC employees)
2011-05-05 16:00 <wpwrak> a pity then. oh well.
2011-05-05 16:07 <lekernel> http://replay.web.archive.org/20090512153629/http://www.eetimes.eu/200000302
2011-05-05 16:20 <kristianpaul> he