2011-04-24 00:28 <kristianpaul> ha, intel + honeycomb,  later what..
2011-04-24 00:28 <wpwrak> ah, nice. only timer 0 and 1 seem to be used. seems that i can do a bit better than timing cache fills.
2011-04-24 01:09 <wpwrak> good. now i know PCLK: it's 336 MHz/3
2011-04-24 01:11 <kristianpaul> ah, rtk hmm https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Real_Time_Kinematic
2011-04-24 01:11 <wpwrak> interesting. the time per GPIO change (set or clear) is 8.5 PCLK cyles.
2011-04-24 01:12 <kristianpaul> interesting topic for the centimetre-level accuracy lovers ;)
2011-04-24 01:15 <kristianpaul> ha ! http://unreasonablerocket.blogspot.com/
2011-04-24 01:27 <kristianpaul> http://www.rakon.com/Products/Public%20Documents/Specifications/GRM8652%20Hardware%20applications%20V1%200.pdf tiny GNSS front end
2011-04-24 01:27 <kristianpaul> bah DNA..
2011-04-24 01:27 <kristianpaul> s/DNA/NDA
2011-04-24 03:10 <wpwrak> larsc: hmm, why do we use 32 bpp and not 16 bpp in the frame buffer ? 16 bpp wouldn't tax our meager memory bandwidth quite so badly
2011-04-24 04:01 <rjeffries> wpwrak so you can display something over SPI-->UBB..>[vga connector???]
2011-04-24 04:02 <wpwrak> blargh. it's no fun to make a video. so photos will have to do ...
2011-04-24 04:02 <rjeffries> this is a VERY fun article about the 6502 design, and especially layout
2011-04-24 04:03 <rjeffries> they got it right the FIRST time. amazing
2011-04-24 04:03 <rjeffries> http://goo.gl/g4Zsw
2011-04-24 04:05 <wolfspraul> I'm quite impressed by the Milkymist article on Wikipedia :-)
2011-04-24 04:05 <wolfspraul> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkymist
2011-04-24 04:05 <wolfspraul> it could go into much more depth in many areas, but it's a great start I think, should be safe from deletion for irrelevance or quality reasons, I would hope
2011-04-24 04:05 <rjeffries> I am so old I remember when wolfspraul dismissed the idea of writing up Ben NN on wikipedia. ;)
2011-04-24 04:06 <rjeffries> we all learn and grow and change
2011-04-24 04:25 <rjeffries> wpwrak I'll look for your screen photos tomorrow.
2011-04-24 04:26 <rjeffries> wolfspraul agree the Milkymist article is Most Excellent. congrats!
2011-04-24 04:28 <wpwrak> rjeffries: you may want to take a coffee. they're just a moment away ...
2011-04-24 04:29 <rjeffries> ok then
2011-04-24 04:30 <rjeffries> I am wondering what the FPGA chip in MM costs in the 100 qty sharism is buying
2011-04-24 04:32 <wpwrak> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/vga/
2011-04-24 04:33 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: video/video.c: pseudo-VGA output (test pattern only) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/b85ae15
2011-04-24 04:33 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: video.c: working version, with screen grabber http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/18f2957
2011-04-24 04:33 <wolfspraul> ca. 39 USD, all our prices are public as well
2011-04-24 04:33 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC3_BOM
2011-04-24 04:47 <rjeffries> wolfspraul is PCB 4 layer or more, and roughly what does it cost again in these modest quatities
2011-04-24 04:53 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_BOM
2011-04-24 04:54 <wolfspraul> USD 24.87
2011-04-24 04:54 <wolfspraul> 6-layer PCB
2011-04-24 04:54 <rjeffries> ok the reason I asked was I did not see in on RC3 bom, thx
2011-04-24 04:55 <wolfspraul> because rc3 pcb has not been made yet
2011-04-24 04:55 <rjeffries> in any case from my POV at current qty 1 price your margin is pretty thin
2011-04-24 04:55 <rjeffries> understood
2011-04-24 04:55 <wolfspraul> you and your margins :-)
2011-04-24 04:55 <wolfspraul> If there is one thing I'm not worried about, seriously, it's competition from Ron Manufacturing Enterprises, Inc.
2011-04-24 04:55 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-04-24 04:56 <rjeffries> buxiness guys are such a total pain in the you know what
2011-04-24 04:56 <rjeffries> yes you have NO FEAR in terms of me
2011-04-24 04:57 <wolfspraul> looking at bom items for these small runs tells you very little. best is to try out with some runs, then you learn a lot.
2011-04-24 04:57 <rjeffries> yes prices drop a lot in volume
2011-04-24 04:57 <wolfspraul> keep in mind that in the end the raw materials for all this are still dirt cheap
2011-04-24 04:57 <wolfspraul> mostly what you pay for is people's time, knowledge, experience
2011-04-24 04:58 <wolfspraul> also yield, very important. don't forget. who owns the yield?
2011-04-24 04:58 <wolfspraul> if you ask that, I know you are serious :-)
2011-04-24 04:58 <wolfspraul> people who ask about bom first, ...
2011-04-24 04:58 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-04-24 04:58 <wolfspraul> but naturally 95% or more ask about bom first
2011-04-24 04:58 <wolfspraul> I did the same a few years back.
2011-04-24 04:58 <rjeffries> bom is all I have to look at. I was only curious as to the FPGA I had no idea the price range
2011-04-24 04:58 <wolfspraul> gotta start somewhere
2011-04-24 04:59 <wolfspraul> 39
2011-04-24 04:59 <rjeffries> not as much as I thought
2011-04-24 04:59 <wolfspraul> proprietary IC prices are largely impacted by strength of IP, target market/customer, etc.
2011-04-24 04:59 <wolfspraul> some people pay 10 USD, some 500 USD
2011-04-24 04:59 <wolfspraul> it all depends
2011-04-24 05:00 <wolfspraul> the IC itself, if you take out all investments (with you cannot, of course), is always just a few pennies
2011-04-24 05:00 <rjeffries> nods
2011-04-24 05:01 <wolfspraul> so xilinx 'makes' 38.50 USD on this
2011-04-24 05:01 <wolfspraul> in a super simplistic calculation
2011-04-24 05:02 <wolfspraul> probably with high-end process nodes like 45nm in this case the contracts with Samsung also have a lot of back-and-forth payments when reaching this or that target
2011-04-24 05:02 <wolfspraul> they work on 28nm now, for the -7 generation
2011-04-24 05:02 <rjeffries> by the way in higher volumes yiedl belongs to the assembly house they make educated guess the first time the see a design, iuf the yield is crappy next time you pay more
2011-04-24 05:03 <rjeffries> in fact it is a partnership bewteen desgn engineering and the manufactuter
2011-04-24 05:04 <rjeffries> all that matters to you is it costs you $39 and change
2011-04-24 05:04 <rjeffries> (for thsi chip in this volume at this time)
2011-04-24 05:14 <wpwrak> no comments on my vga ? sneef.
2011-04-24 05:16 <rjeffries> hang on
2011-04-24 05:17 <rjeffries> where is the link wpwrak?
2011-04-24 05:17 <rjeffries> oh now I see I missed it
2011-04-24 05:20 <rjeffries> amazing
2011-04-24 05:20 <rjeffries> like an elephant that dances. amazing period
2011-04-24 05:21 <rjeffries> I will admit I would not choose to read War and Peace on that display
2011-04-24 05:22 <wpwrak> i could be improved a little by using two more signals for additional colors. right now, it's 3 bit color :)
2011-04-24 05:23 <rjeffries> ah
2011-04-24 05:24 <wpwrak> yeah, the horizontal resolution is faux-320. since the gpios are so slow, i only have one update cycle per pixel. in the ingenic cpus, you can't write a value directly to a port but you have to either set or clear. so i alternate set and clear commands. this means that the worst-case resolution is only 160 pixels.
2011-04-24 05:25 <wpwrak> and even there i had to cheat. the timing isn't quite vga. my scan lines are about 10% longer. luckily, most monitors tolerate this.
2011-04-24 05:29 <rjeffries> fascinating experiment. now I am off to bed. cu
2011-04-24 05:32 <wpwrak> ah no, only one signal left for grey levels
2011-04-24 05:40 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Added schematic symbol for VGA DE15 connector http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/f35d48c
2011-04-24 06:01 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: video/: added Makefile and schematics http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/7d95fe8
2011-04-24 06:01 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: video/README: documented sources and implementation quirks http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/b11dc61
2011-04-24 06:01 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: renamed "video" to ubb-vga http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/3b7a7ca
2011-04-24 06:24 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I see a lot of grey stripes in the video. is that on purpose or an artefact of the theora conversion? can you upload the .avi original from your camera?
2011-04-24 06:34 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: yeah, tat's a feature of kdenlive :-(
2011-04-24 06:38 <wpwrak> the original video has copyrighted background music (radio). i'll put it at a safe place ...
2011-04-24 06:38 <wpwrak> (copyrighte) well, non-open
2011-04-24 06:41 <wolfspraul> upload it, I convert to ogg without sound, and delete the original
2011-04-24 06:41 <wolfspraul> how about that?
2011-04-24 06:45 <wpwrak> yeah, had something similar in mind :) just via my server. the bottleneck is the upload anyway.
2011-04-24 06:51 <wpwrak> http://www.almesberger.net/prv/MVI_1074.MOV
2011-04-24 07:34 <wolfspraul> nice, thanks
2011-04-24 07:34 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Ben_UBB_VGA.ogv
2011-04-24 07:34 <wolfspraul> looks pretty good, with the flickering light at the beginning it feels like a horror movie
2011-04-24 07:45 <kyak> viric: yeah, i was running mplayer in sdl. It runs OK, when decoding mpeg2 video with libmad audio (pre-encoded for 320x resolution)
2011-04-24 07:46 <kyak> viric: no, not mpeg2.. i encoded it with vcodec=mpeg1video:vpass=1:vbitrate=200
2011-04-24 08:47 <dvdk> anybody objects if i commit the new mplayer package to git already?
2011-04-24 08:47 <dvdk> we'd have to do some patching to remove patented codecs, before releasing any firmware containing it.
2011-04-24 08:53 <kyak> i think the patented codecs should be rather disabled based on patented flag, but not removed
2011-04-24 08:56 <dvdk> kyak: of course.  just the current package doesn't do that yet.  so we won't be able to release without causing (patent) trouble.
2011-04-24 08:56 <dvdk> i'll commit anyway.  let's work out the detail in time before release.
2011-04-24 08:56 <dvdk> ok?
2011-04-24 08:57 <dvdk> configuring the ffmpeg that's build as part of mplayer looks a little hacky, btw
2011-04-24 08:59 <kyak> sure, just commit it
2011-04-24 08:59 <kyak> do you mean the "current" package that you are going to commit?
2011-04-24 08:59 <kyak> cause the one already in git makes use of patented flag
2011-04-24 09:04 <dvdk> kyak: yeah 'current' is my working copy
2011-04-24 09:05 <kyak> you can keep the parts in makefile where it is checking for patented flag.. or are you talking about ffmpeg mostly?
2011-04-24 09:06 <dvdk> kyak: the makefile is mostly untouched.  problem is the ffmpeg that's build now build by mplayer
2011-04-24 09:06 <dvdk> I'll commit, then have a look at whether i find a simple patch for the ffmpeg part.
2011-04-24 09:07 <qi-bot> [commit] David Kühling: mplayer: use svn versions of mplayer plus mplayer-internal ffmpeg from git http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/6a975d2
2011-04-24 09:07 <dvdk> here you are.
2011-04-24 09:07 <kyak> perhaps we can base on the makefile of ffmpeg from openwrt and make a controllable build of ffmpeg of our own inside the mplayer build dir
2011-04-24 09:08 <dvdk> kyak: this is deeply intermingled, not sure that is easy.  mplayer doesn't even run ffmpeg's configure script.
2011-04-24 09:08 <dvdk> (afaics)
2011-04-24 09:09 <kyak> god... are there some configure options of mplayer that can be passed to ffmpeg during build?
2011-04-24 09:09 <dvdk> kyak: easiest patch would be --disable-ffmpeg ? :)
2011-04-24 09:09 <dvdk> kyak: mplayer configure writes ffmpeg's config.h?
2011-04-24 09:09 <dvdk> ahh, found:
2011-04-24 09:09 <dvdk> --disable-decoder=DECODER disable specified FFmpeg decoder
2011-04-24 09:09 <dvdk> ... and so on.
2011-04-24 09:09 <kyak> oh yes
2011-04-24 09:09 <dvdk> (from mplayer configure)
2011-04-24 09:10 <kyak> this looks like what we need
2011-04-24 09:10 <dvdk> --disable-muxer : maybe we can disable the broken ffmpeg ogg demuxer?
2011-04-24 09:10 <kyak> dvdk: i think it's for you to decide, you are the mplayer expert :)
2011-04-24 09:11 <dvdk> kyak: only unwillingly )
2011-04-24 09:11 <dvdk> s/)/:)
2011-04-24 09:11 <roh> interresting how much energy is put into delivering crippled sw
2011-04-24 09:12 <roh> just my 2 cents (out of the perspective to have seen this all before) .. the support work would be much more bearable if you dont deliver mplayer at all instead of one which can only play half the stuff
2011-04-24 09:13 <dvdk> roh: we can only play quarter of the stuff anyway, due to nanonote's weak cpu :)
2011-04-24 09:13 <dvdk> roh: no problem to re-encode to your favourite format?
2011-04-24 09:13 <roh> dvdk: bwahahaha... its not 1996 anymore dude
2011-04-24 09:13 <kyak> in fact, we can deliver mplayer with only ONE stuff.. due to necessity to decode to Ben's screen and capabilities
2011-04-24 09:13 <dvdk> roh: have to do it to not get wolfgang into any trouble on nanonote shipping (openmoko phones had these problems already)
2011-04-24 09:14 <dvdk> i.e. patent ligitation
2011-04-24 09:14 <roh> besides.. in reality there is neither the screen nor the audio out good enough for 'video' or 'music' . its ok for scummvm-sound tho
2011-04-24 09:14 <roh> dvdk: i know. i was working at openmoko
2011-04-24 09:14 <dvdk> roh: it has a stereo out.  good enough isn't it?  as good as my desktop-pc
2011-04-24 09:14 <roh> thats why i said.. dont ship broken sw. better not ship it at all.
2011-04-24 09:14 <kyak> roh: in reality i watch tv shows on Ben connecting it to car's audio system, when the traffic is super hard
2011-04-24 09:15 <dvdk> screen size is debatable, but werner is working on a solution already :)
2011-04-24 09:15 <dvdk> i think an mplayer alternative would be to use a minimal player besed on liboggplay which is the demuxing/seeking framework that firefox uses.
2011-04-24 09:15 <dvdk> but still more wok.
2011-04-24 09:15 <dvdk> s/wok/work
2011-04-24 09:15 <kyak> besides, i don't know why roh keeps insisting that mplayer is "broken" :)
2011-04-24 09:16 <dvdk> kyak: look at the mplayer sourcecode, then you'll understand :)
2011-04-24 09:16 <roh> kyak: ever looked at the code?
2011-04-24 09:16 <dvdk> two dudes, one thought.
2011-04-24 09:16 <roh> today somebody mentioned that there is a fork of mplayer now.. mplayer2. no mencoder anymore and they tried cleaning up the source.
2011-04-24 09:16 <roh> sounded like a project for somebody loving pain
2011-04-24 09:16 <dvdk> roh: saw that already. looks extremely nice.  but first things first :)
2011-04-24 09:17 <kyak> why would i look into the code? it works, and nobody has offered an alternative
2011-04-24 09:17 <dvdk> roh: we're all loving pain, aren't we, spending our free time in front of the pc _working_ :)
2011-04-24 09:17 <roh> i use mplayer code a lot. as example how real-world-fileformats look like and what fields are where. and how not to write your code if you need it secure or maintainable... nice simd in ffmpeg still...
2011-04-24 09:18 <dvdk> kyak: it only works sometimes (unfortunately).  but still mplayer is extremely optimized and minimalistic (no threading etc., data flow optimized for cahces), so matches nanonote quite well
2011-04-24 09:18 <roh> dvdk: better than spending it sitting in an office being paid for killing time NOT working.
2011-04-24 09:18 <dvdk> roh: cool, do you currently hire :)
2011-04-24 09:19 <kyak> dvdk: that's what i'm saying; the source code might be crappy, but it works better than anything else (for Ben?)
2011-04-24 09:19 <roh> dvdk: hehe.. no. but i know lots of people who have such jobs. and its not good for health.
2011-04-24 09:19 <dvdk> kyak: looks like configure enables most ffmpeg codecs by default, maybe we should rip that out and only manually enable codecs.  that keeps patents creeping in once we upgrade to newer svn revisions
2011-04-24 09:20 <roh> there was a 'beware of patents' switch somewhere
2011-04-24 09:20 <viric> dvdk: hey, let me try your advice :)
2011-04-24 09:20 <dvdk> roh: not any more
2011-04-24 09:20 <dvdk> morning viric
2011-04-24 09:20 <dvdk> roh:?
2011-04-24 09:20 <viric> guten tag
2011-04-24 09:20 <dvdk> roh: you know, mplayer/ffmpeg people already gave up on any unproductive stuff to kill their time.
2011-04-24 09:20 <kyak> dvdk: the whitelist approach sounds reasonable
2011-04-24 09:20 <roh> you mean the flag is gone?
2011-04-24 09:21 <roh> nice. finally some realism *g*
2011-04-24 09:21 <dvdk> roh: looks like it.  mplayer release tarballs: also gone, too much work, doing release management :)
2011-04-24 09:21 <roh> i can understand.. who should maintain and test a code path nobody seriously uses?
2011-04-24 09:21 <dvdk> viric: try a few times, kyak also had a black screen on first tries.  be patient!
2011-04-24 09:21 <viric> I was trying to find that 'screenw' 'screenh' line you sent... I think you sent it already, but I could not find it in my mail box
2011-04-24 09:22 <dvdk> roh: if nobody uses it?  don't maintain it! :)  already fbdev:vidix hit that fate, just not working.
2011-04-24 09:22 <kyak> viric: at that time, it helped me to wait around 1 minute :)
2011-04-24 09:22 <dvdk> ogg/ogm demuxer: similar fate.
2011-04-24 09:22 <viric> dvdk: well, the video *starts in black*... that makes it also a bad test :) specially when you get the floating point codecs
2011-04-24 09:22 <dvdk> viric: hehe.  yes nanonote put -ac tremor into the config file i guess.
2011-04-24 09:22 <roh> man i love this li-lo makita .... doing renovations in our new hackerspace.. and somebody brought a battery powered hammer-drill
2011-04-24 09:22 <roh> s/lo/po/&g
2011-04-24 09:22 <viric> dvdk: and I could not see any cpu usage difference between theora and fftheora
2011-04-24 09:23 <dvdk> viric: maybe depending on content.  it should be.  ffmpeg renders directly into the dma buffers, whil theora has an additinoal copy.  plus many other differences (cache usage etc.)
2011-04-24 09:23 <roh> http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BHR241-Lithium-Ion-Cordless-SDS-Plus/dp/B003WBS4CU
2011-04-24 09:23 <viric> MPlayer interrupted by signal 4 in module: decode_audio
2011-04-24 09:23 <viric> - MPlayer crashed by an 'Illegal Instruction'.
2011-04-24 09:24 <viric> grbml
2011-04-24 09:24 <dvdk> viric: huh?
2011-04-24 09:24 <dvdk> viric: tried -demuxer ogg?
2011-04-24 09:24 <viric> incredible. Playing it again, it works.
2011-04-24 09:24 <viric> I've the scaler working :) great
2011-04-24 09:24 <dvdk> cool to hear that.
2011-04-24 09:25 <viric> ouch. it stopped
2011-04-24 09:25 <viric> Trace/breakpoint trap
2011-04-24 09:25 <dvdk> viric: sounds like some corruption occuring.
2011-04-24 09:25 <dvdk> viric: fftheora vs. libtheora does it change anything?
2011-04-24 09:25 <roh> i fear i cannot give back that machine *g*
2011-04-24 09:25 <dvdk> viric: maybe try a different mplayer version?
2011-04-24 09:26 <dvdk> wait, uploading the version i used here,
2011-04-24 09:26 <viric> I'm using mplayer from yesterday
2011-04-24 09:27 <dvdk> you mean svn checkout?
2011-04-24 09:27 <viric> snapshot
2011-04-24 09:27 <dvdk> or the one you compiled yesterday ? :)
2011-04-24 09:27 <viric> yes
2011-04-24 09:27 <viric> I built it yesterday, from the snapshot of yesterday! :)
2011-04-24 09:27 <dvdk> this is what i used:  http://mosquito.dyndns.tv/david/nanonote/MPlayer-r33304.tar.gz
2011-04-24 09:27 <dvdk> includes ffmpeg
2011-04-24 09:27 <viric> MPlayer SVN-r33269-snapshot-4.5.1 (C) 2000-2011 MPlayer Team
2011-04-24 09:28 <viric> this is what mine says.
2011-04-24 09:28 <viric> according to the svn revision, mine is slightly older :)
2011-04-24 09:28 <dvdk> mine is r33304 with some git version from yesterday
2011-04-24 09:28 <viric> rerunning, again illegal instruction... grmbl
2011-04-24 09:28 <viric> (in decode_audio!)
2011-04-24 09:28 <viric> I'm trying fftheora.
2011-04-24 09:28 <viric> I don't know what it gets by default.
2011-04-24 09:28 <viric> trace/breakpoint trap again. In a different moment. Let's see 'theora'
2011-04-24 09:29 <dvdk> there is another tremor audio codec included with mplayer (not ffmpeg?), maybe this is broken and you're using it?
2011-04-24 09:29 <viric> bang. illegal instruction in decode_audio too. grrr
2011-04-24 09:29 <viric> I'm using "-ac tremor"
2011-04-24 09:29 <dvdk> yeah, there are two tremors, one is even mips-optimized?
2011-04-24 09:30 <dvdk> need to compare our ./configure output.
2011-04-24 09:30 <viric> # mplayer -ac help | grep trem
2011-04-24 09:30 <viric> tremor      tremor    working   OggVorbis audio  [tremor]
2011-04-24 09:30 <dvdk> viric: try -noaudio
2011-04-24 09:30 <viric> I'll use '-ao null'
2011-04-24 09:30 <dvdk> you may not be able to discern the two
2011-04-24 09:31 <dvdk> ok, same output for me.
2011-04-24 09:31 <viric> Using '-ao null', it decodes super-slow!
2011-04-24 09:31 <dvdk> try -noaudio?
2011-04-24 09:31 <viric> It does not know '-noaudio'
2011-04-24 09:31 <dvdk> hmm.
2011-04-24 09:32 <viric> I'll run with gb
2011-04-24 09:32 <viric> gdb
2011-04-24 09:33 <viric> OOMK. grmbl!
2011-04-24 09:33 <viric> maybe with gdbserver
2011-04-24 09:34 <viric> I'll build a gdb for the mips..
2011-04-24 09:34 <dvdk> viric: does it not crash with sdl?  that it's the accel's fault.
2011-04-24 09:34 <viric> hm I use -vo fbdev when it works normally
2011-04-24 09:35 <dvdk> ok, so problem solved? accel is killing it?
2011-04-24 09:35 <viric> let me try. -vo fbdev2
2011-04-24 09:35 <viric> Maybe I never played the video that long.
2011-04-24 09:35 <dvdk> hmm.
2011-04-24 09:36 <viric> here it plays....
2011-04-24 09:36 <viric> no crash.
2011-04-24 09:37 <viric> no crash at all without your driver.
2011-04-24 09:37 <viric> I may enable core dumps...
2011-04-24 09:37 <dvdk> maybe it maps the wrong memory for dma buffers?
2011-04-24 09:38 <viric> No idea
2011-04-24 09:38 <dvdk> ok, we may be able to see that by looking at /proc/<pid>/maps
2011-04-24 09:38 <viric> some pictures appear...
2011-04-24 09:38 <dvdk> just pause mplayer before it crashes and cat that file to stdout.
2011-04-24 09:38 <viric> it looks like some race condition, according to the time of crash (always different)
2011-04-24 09:39 <viric> mplayer catches Illegal instruction and does not emit any core dump. grmlb
2011-04-24 09:40 <viric> I've the maps. so?
2011-04-24 09:40 <viric> q http://sprunge.us/ChZE
2011-04-24 09:40 <dvdk> can you upload to look at them? or mail?
2011-04-24 09:40 <viric> it's the last part
2011-04-24 09:41 <dvdk> viric: need the full file :)
2011-04-24 09:41 <viric>  http://sprunge.us/POIR
2011-04-24 09:41 <viric> full file.
2011-04-24 09:42 <dvdk> viric: do you have swap at nanonixos?
2011-04-24 09:42 <viric> no
2011-04-24 09:42 <dvdk> ok, same here.
2011-04-24 09:43 <viric> I've lots of memory used, I don't know why
2011-04-24 09:43 <viric> xiangfu: ni hao!
2011-04-24 09:43 <xiangfu> viric: hi
2011-04-24 09:43 <viric> xiangfu: I bought a chinese product long ago, and I found it recently. I don't know what it is. May you take a look and tell me? :)
2011-04-24 09:43 <viric> No latin script in it
2011-04-24 09:44 <xiangfu> ok take a picture of it :)
2011-04-24 09:44 <dvdk> viric: memory mapping looks ok, afaics, so maybe it's not my fault?
2011-04-24 09:44 <xiangfu> take a picture of the Chinese :)
2011-04-24 09:44 <dvdk> viric: one thing you still might try:
2011-04-24 09:45 <dvdk> viric: uncommenting these two lines in jz47xx_config_playback(), just to make sure we really don't have spurious dma operations:
2011-04-24 09:45 <dvdk>     unmap_unused_phys();
2011-04-24 09:45 <dvdk>     sdram_close();
2011-04-24 09:46 <viric> xiangfu: http://vicerveza.homeunix.net/~viric/tmp/prod.jpg
2011-04-24 09:47 <viric> dvdk: hm
2011-04-24 09:47 <viric> ok
2011-04-24 09:47 <viric> dvdk: can you post a '.patch' somewhere? :)
2011-04-24 09:47 <dvdk> wait...
2011-04-24 09:47 <viric> or I'll have to write a 'sed' operation that does that.
2011-04-24 09:48 <dvdk> http://mosquito.dyndns.tv/david/nanonote/jz47xx.patch
2011-04-24 09:48 <dvdk> hmm, needs to be applied from inside the directory, maybe need to change that.  wait...
2011-04-24 09:48 <viric> :)
2011-04-24 09:48 <viric> please.
2011-04-24 09:48 <viric> xiangfu: I even don't know the orientation of the picture :D
2011-04-24 09:49 <dvdk> viric: http://mosquito.dyndns.tv/david/nanonote/jz47xx-2.patch
2011-04-24 09:49 <dvdk> damn it. still wrong.  svn cannot produce quilt-conforming patches?
2011-04-24 09:49 <viric> no, it cannot
2011-04-24 09:49 <dvdk> ok, 3rd try.
2011-04-24 09:50 <viric> the 2nd went fine.
2011-04-24 09:50 <viric> applying patch /nix/store/z9i6n580lgky42dbgwyqzczvnyhzqw2r-jz47xx-2.patch
2011-04-24 09:50 <viric> patching file jz47xx_vid.c
2011-04-24 09:50 <xiangfu> viric: it's one kind 'Seasoning',
2011-04-24 09:50 <dvdk> ah, nice.
2011-04-24 09:50 <viric> xiangfu: I sparse that over the food, and it's fine? :)
2011-04-24 09:52 <xiangfu> viric: it have to used during the cooking. or before you start to cooking
2011-04-24 09:52 <viric> dvdk: same trouble. exactly.
2011-04-24 09:52 <viric> xiangfu: ahh perfect.
2011-04-24 09:52 <dvdk> viric: i hate it.
2011-04-24 09:53 <viric> xiangfu: does it mention a 'rotting date'? :)
2011-04-24 09:53 <dvdk> viric: but maybe not my fault.  just a race due to different timing (i really hope that).
2011-04-24 09:53 <dvdk> viric: mayb try the same source version i'm using here (see the -r33304.tar.gz)
2011-04-24 09:53 <viric> dvdk: you don't see the trouble at all?
2011-04-24 09:53 <viric> oh, got core dumped.
2011-04-24 09:54 <dvdk> viric: works rock-solid here.  i admit it's pretty hacky, but dma buffers are locked in memory, shouldn't overwrite your code.
2011-04-24 09:54 <viric> Program terminated with signal 5, Trace/breakpoint trap.
2011-04-24 09:54 <viric> #0  0x7fe076b8 in ?? ()
2011-04-24 09:55 <dvdk> ah, wait, just looking at your maps.  where does 0x7fe076b8 reside?
2011-04-24 09:55 <viric> How can I know the maps in a core dump?
2011-04-24 09:55 <dvdk> dunno.  but if you run in gdb, the program won't quit and you can observe /proc/<pid> after the crash.
2011-04-24 09:55 <viric> I can't run gdb and mplayer at once
2011-04-24 09:56 <viric> oomk.
2011-04-24 09:56 <dvdk> note that  0x7fe076b8 is not mapped in your example.
2011-04-24 09:56 <xiangfu> viric: 24 months,  "check the surface for Production date"
2011-04-24 09:56 <dvdk> s/example/maps
2011-04-24 09:56 <viric> xiangfu: it's rotten for sure then. :)
2011-04-24 09:56 <dvdk> viric: i have an idea.  your stack is much smaller than mine, did you notice?
2011-04-24 09:56 <viric> dvdk: it looks like a stack address, looking at the old maps
2011-04-24 09:57 <viric> stack size              (kbytes, -s) 8192
2011-04-24 09:57 <viric> I don't know how big is your stack :)
2011-04-24 09:58 <viric> Inreasing to 16MB
2011-04-24 09:58 <dvdk> viric: but anyway, my code onlly uses about 16kB of stack and only once durin initialization (for d-cache flushing :)
2011-04-24 09:59 <viric> why sometimes it does not 'scale'?
2011-04-24 09:59 <dvdk> viric: huh?
2011-04-24 09:59 <viric> mplayer -vo cvidix -ac tremor -screenw 320 -screenh 240
2011-04-24 09:59 <dvdk> viric: you have to give -fs to make it scale and -screenw -screenh to tell it your screen dimension
2011-04-24 09:59 <viric> what I am forgetting?
2011-04-24 09:59 <dvdk> -fs
2011-04-24 09:59 <dvdk> ?
2011-04-24 09:59 <viric> aah
2011-04-24 09:59 <dvdk> or press 'f' during playback?  wouldn't try that, though :)
2011-04-24 09:59 <viric> MPlayer interrupted by signal 11 in module: video_read_frame
2011-04-24 09:59 <viric> it looks like 'random crashes'
2011-04-24 10:00 <dvdk> viric: uname -a?
2011-04-24 10:00 <dvdk> Linux BenNanoNote 2.6.32.27 #1 PREEMPT Thu Feb 24 12:46:39 CET 2011 mips GNU/Linux
2011-04-24 10:00 <viric> Linux nano 2.6.36 #1 PREEMPT Thu Mar 10 12:41:34 UTC 2011 mips GNU/Linux
2011-04-24 10:00 <dvdk> viric: maybe here's the problem?
2011-04-24 10:00 <viric> dvdk: If I take out the '-fs', it works just fine. but no scaling, ofc.
2011-04-24 10:01 <dvdk> viric: you mean it won't crash?
2011-04-24 10:01 <viric> it does not crash.
2011-04-24 10:01 <dvdk> viric: either timing, or in full-screen it writes beyond the bottom edge of the screen
2011-04-24 10:01 <dvdk> how does it look? where is the video placed?
2011-04-24 10:01 <viric> centered
2011-04-24 10:01 <dvdk> hmm.
2011-04-24 10:02 <dvdk> you could try -geometry 320x240+0+0 or something instead of -fs to see when it stops working
2011-04-24 10:03 <viric> -geometry 320x240+0+0 hangs
2011-04-24 10:03 <viric> well crashes, like with -fs
2011-04-24 10:03 <dvdk> try 320x120 etc.
2011-04-24 10:03 <viric> 300x200 crashes too
2011-04-24 10:04 <dvdk> does it output some frames before crashing?
2011-04-24 10:04 <viric> yes for soem seconds
2011-04-24 10:04 <viric> 256x144@0x0 works just fine
2011-04-24 10:04 <dvdk> viric: this would disable the scaler, try 256x100
2011-04-24 10:05 <dvdk> viric: maybe you just have a CPU with bad silicon ? :)
2011-04-24 10:05 <viric> haha
2011-04-24 10:06 <viric> 256x100...
2011-04-24 10:06 <dvdk> maybe dma engine messess with other cache/ram accesess? i mean there is no pattern in the crashes.
2011-04-24 10:06 <viric> crash
2011-04-24 10:06 <dvdk> enabling the scaler increases ram bandwidth, i guess (has to read more pixels for interpolation)
2011-04-24 10:07 <viric> the kernel does not crash, at least.
2011-04-24 10:07 <dvdk> viric: it's surprisingly hard to crash :)  not even writing beyond the screen crashes it immedeately
2011-04-24 10:08 <dvdk> viric: should try with MPlayer-r33304.tar.gz, it could still be an mplayer bug due to different timing
2011-04-24 10:08 <dvdk> viric: playing from nand of from sd-card?
2011-04-24 10:08 <viric> from nand
2011-04-24 10:08 <dvdk> same here
2011-04-24 10:09 <dvdk> other than that enabling the scaler does not change *any* details how software accesses memory.  so cannot see a reason for memory corruptions.  only timing changes.
2011-04-24 10:09 <viric> 'timing' of what?
2011-04-24 10:09 <dvdk> viric: scaling costs ram bandwidth, so software runs slightly slower.
2011-04-24 10:10 <dvdk> viric: scaler works in the background concurrently with sw.
2011-04-24 10:10 <viric> and that is properly semaphored' :)
2011-04-24 10:10 <viric> ?
2011-04-24 10:11 <dvdk> viric: it's producer-consumer, like a queue, so not much possibilities for mistakes.
2011-04-24 10:11 <viric> ah
2011-04-24 10:11 <dvdk> jz47xx_frame_sel() does the switching of buffers (i.e. 'semaphore')
2011-04-24 10:11 <viric> maybe 2.6.36 has problems with dma...
2011-04-24 10:11 <dvdk> viric: if it starts to defragment physical memory, you'd be in trouble.
2011-04-24 10:12 <viric> why would it?
2011-04-24 10:12 <viric> may I disable it?
2011-04-24 10:12 <dvdk> viric: don't know, but 2.6.38 has transparent huge page support, so might defragment.  never heared of such a thing other than that.
2011-04-24 10:12 <dvdk> viric: i don't even know if such a concept exists in linux kernel.
2011-04-24 10:13 <dvdk> i only know, that if the physical->logical address mapping changes for the dma buffers, we're screwed.
2011-04-24 10:13 <dvdk> but that's why i allocate them via mmap() with flag MAP_LOCKED
2011-04-24 10:13 <viric> ok
2011-04-24 10:14 <viric> maybe larsc can suggest something
2011-04-24 10:14 <dvdk> but all that is not really guaranteed, you know.  getting physical memory from user-space is just a hack after all.
2011-04-24 10:14 <viric> but even without scaling, isn't the YCrCb mapping to RGB using the gpu?
2011-04-24 10:15 <viric> larsc: has linux changed a lot from 2.6.32 to 2.6.36 about making a hack to mapping physical memory to process memory from userspace?
2011-04-24 10:15 <dvdk> viric: you're right, it's the same data-path just with less reads because no interpolation
2011-04-24 10:17 <dvdk> haha
2011-04-24 10:17 <viric> there is one ram read per pixel?
2011-04-24 10:17 <dvdk> this may be the culprit: ?
2011-04-24 10:17 <viric> per screen pixel
2011-04-24 10:17 <dvdk> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=643426
2011-04-24 10:17 <dvdk> stack protection in 2.6.36?
2011-04-24 10:19 <viric> hm
2011-04-24 10:19 <dvdk> do you have the latest 2.6.36?
2011-04-24 10:20 <viric> I have the *released* 2.6.36 + patches from larsc
2011-04-24 10:20 <viric> I'll take 2.6.36.3, fine?
2011-04-24 10:21 <viric> I'll build it
2011-04-24 10:21 <dvdk> viric: that's beyond me.  why not use the kernel that.s released with the official openwrt/qi-hw fimrware?
2011-04-24 10:22 <viric> dvdk: bah, who uses openwrt?
2011-04-24 10:22 <dvdk> viric: just the kernel :)
2011-04-24 10:22 <dvdk> viric: or use the corresponding source snapshot.
2011-04-24 10:22 <viric> :)
2011-04-24 10:22 <viric> I just take the chance to get more problems
2011-04-24 10:22 <viric> Otherwise the nanonote would be useless
2011-04-24 10:23 <dvdk> viric: you got it, want to order more?
2011-04-24 10:23 <viric> problems?
2011-04-24 10:23 <dvdk> nananotes, bundled with problems
2011-04-24 10:23 <viric> :)
2011-04-24 10:23 <viric> no no
2011-04-24 10:25 <viric> And now... how to overwrite the kernel image without overwriting the rootfs.
2011-04-24 10:26 <dvdk> viric: just reflash the right part with usbboot?
2011-04-24 10:26 <Jay7> dvdk: wrt latest mail in ML
2011-04-24 10:26 <dvdk> viric: just rip the right part out of reflash_ben.sh
2011-04-24 10:26 <Jay7> about disabling cursor on ssh
2011-04-24 10:26 <viric> dvdk: usbboot had a bug about overwriting beyond the limits
2011-04-24 10:26 <dvdk> usbboot -c "nprog 1024 ${WORKING_DIR}/${KERNEL} 0 0 -n
2011-04-24 10:27 <dvdk> viric: not yet fixed?
2011-04-24 10:27 <Jay7> dvdk: I'm using escape sequences to disable cursor on fb in kexecboot
2011-04-24 10:27 <Jay7> may be this is more convient way
2011-04-24 10:28 <dvdk> Jay7: but it's the same problem, just relying on /dev/tty, isn't it?
2011-04-24 10:28 <Jay7> dvdk: put sequence on stdout :)
2011-04-24 10:28 <dvdk> yeah, with stdout being /dev/tty
2011-04-24 10:28 <Jay7>         fputs("\033[?25l", f);
2011-04-24 10:28 <Jay7> where f is STDOUT
2011-04-24 10:29 <dvdk> jay7: i think KD_GRAPHICS might do more? like disabling scrolling?  also it restores the srceen when doing KD_TEXT afterwards.
2011-04-24 10:29 <Jay7> this will disable cursor on controlling terminal
2011-04-24 10:29 <dvdk> yeah, and /dev/tty is aways the controlling terminal :)
2011-04-24 10:30 <Jay7> when you running mplayer via ssh your pty will be controlling terminal :)
2011-04-24 10:30 <viric> dvdk: xiangfu was in charge. I hope he fixed it already.
2011-04-24 10:31 <viric> (quite long ago)
2011-04-24 10:31 <dvdk> jay7: that's the problem, with your code and with mine.  there is some ioctl to map framebuffer to terminal, but too much hassle...
2011-04-24 10:31 <Jay7> but ioctl can't disable cursor on pty as I understand
2011-04-24 10:32 <Jay7> so I'm using esc seq which is working there :)
2011-04-24 10:32 <dvdk> jay7: but that's no use anyway, since pty != framebuffer
2011-04-24 10:32 <Jay7> ah.. seems I understand what you mean
2011-04-24 10:32 <viric> dvdk: I don't use any reflash_ben :) nanonixos does not require rootfs reflashing for updating the OS ;)
2011-04-24 10:32 <Jay7> this will disable cursor on ssh but not on fb
2011-04-24 10:33 <dvdk> jay7: btw same with ioctl.
2011-04-24 10:33 <Jay7> yes, but ioctl will disable cursor on fb but not on ssh :)
2011-04-24 10:33 <Jay7> hm.. may be call both? :)
2011-04-24 10:33 <dvdk> jay7: i guess ioctl() is a superset of esc
2011-04-24 10:34 <Jay7> iirc, that ioctl is applicable only on linux console
2011-04-24 10:34 <Jay7> or at least tty
2011-04-24 10:34 <dvdk> jay7: well, but that's what i'm coding for, no video output via ssh :)
2011-04-24 10:34 <Jay7> I should re-read that docs
2011-04-24 10:34 <Jay7> libcaca ;)
2011-04-24 10:35 <dvdk> jay7: already supported by mplayer ? :)
2011-04-24 10:35 <dvdk> mplayer -vo aa
2011-04-24 10:35 <Jay7> I just have same problem with kexecboot
2011-04-24 10:36 <Jay7> e.g. you may run it with fb UI from serial console
2011-04-24 10:37 <Jay7> then it's hard to guess fb<->tty mapping
2011-04-24 10:42 <Jay7> well, afk for some hours
2011-04-24 10:44 <dvdk> cu
2011-04-24 10:45 <dvdk> kyak: is current multimedia/ffmpeg package  really patent free?
2011-04-24 10:45 <dvdk> kyak: i guess not:
2011-04-24 10:46 <wolfspraul> there is no 'patent free'
2011-04-24 10:47 <wolfspraul> we work this from practical threats backwards
2011-04-24 10:47 <wolfspraul> that means, to my current knowledge, we should stay away from MP3 and anything from the MPEG LA
2011-04-24 10:47 <dvdk> FFMPEG_DECODERS=mp3, mpeg2video wmav1 h264
2011-04-24 10:48 <dvdk> kyak: ok, somhow ffmpeg Makefile pulls per-codec flags CONFIG_FFMPEG_ENCODER_* ? where are they described?
2011-04-24 10:48 <dvdk> wolfspraul: that's what i meant.
2011-04-24 10:48 <dvdk> ah, nice, there's a Config.in  now i understand how this is supposed to work.
2011-04-24 10:49 <wolfspraul> our best protection is that patent lawsuits are expensive, and that there is always the (small) chance that due to a lawsuit, a patent gets declared invalid
2011-04-24 10:49 <wolfspraul> that's pretty much all that is holding the parasites back
2011-04-24 10:50 <wolfspraul> then of course the (still) golden 20 year rule, even if we make it a 25 year rule to be safe :-)
2011-04-24 10:50 <dvdk> wolfspraul: being a corporate entity really makes life difficult here.
2011-04-24 10:51 <dvdk> wolfspraul: i mean i can host mplayer on my dyndns server and nobody would ever come after me :)
2011-04-24 10:51 <wolfspraul> the law is still impartial, in the major markets. so worst case you have to become a patent troll and make it back, even if from someone else :-)
2011-04-24 10:51 <dvdk> wolfspraul: that's what samsung is doing against apple currently.  aaah, i hate it.
2011-04-24 10:51 <wolfspraul> I cannot imagine that such hosting could cause you practical trouble, never heard of such a case at least.
2011-04-24 10:52 <dvdk> wolfspraul: but while they still each other, nanonote can strive for world domination.
2011-04-24 10:52 <dvdk> s/still/sue
2011-04-24 10:52 <dvdk> wolfspraul: I'm a not-for-profit private person, no chance under german law.
2011-04-24 10:53 <wolfspraul> yes sure, like I said I focus on real threats, not fear.
2011-04-24 10:53 <wolfspraul> let's take out mp3, mpeg4, h.264
2011-04-24 10:54 <dvdk> wolfspraul: and windows media, and ac3, and... only vorbis, flac etc. as far as i see., also mpeg1
2011-04-24 10:54 <wolfspraul> Ogg Theora is by now such a hopeless loose that if we are lucky we stay under radar.
2011-04-24 10:54 <wolfspraul> looser
2011-04-24 10:54 <wolfspraul> if anything the next big battle will be over WebM
2011-04-24 10:55 <wolfspraul> let the lawyers make their keyboards crack over that one...
2011-04-24 10:55 <dvdk> wolfspraul: if they create a patent pool over Theora, i'm going amok.
2011-04-24 10:55 <wolfspraul> who is 'they'?
2011-04-24 10:55 <wolfspraul> many people are creating patent pools
2011-04-24 10:55 <dvdk> wolfspraul: over theora? mpegla is trying to do that just now, afair.
2011-04-24 10:55 <wolfspraul> but it will not be worth to go after Theora, because Theora users are too poor
2011-04-24 10:55 <dvdk> wolfspraul: but i mean it's already in firefox.
2011-04-24 10:56 <wolfspraul> well let's see. and meanwhile the clock keeps ticking.
2011-04-24 10:56 <dvdk> wolfspraul: so that gives theora quite some market share.
2011-04-24 10:57 <wolfspraul> I doubt that, but I don't care either we can build our thing.
2011-04-24 10:57 <wolfspraul> what's the best guess - how many of the world's tech patent lawyers are currently full-time on the smartphone front?
2011-04-24 10:57 <wolfspraul> must be thousands of them
2011-04-24 10:58 <wolfspraul> writing and writing and writing. and charging someone.
2011-04-24 10:58 <dvdk> wolfspraul: and who writes the law?  more lawyers :)
2011-04-24 10:59 <wolfspraul> I feel pretty good about our patent strategy right now.
2011-04-24 10:59 <dvdk> can somebody help to list the codecs that are ok to go into the firmware?
2011-04-24 10:59 <dvdk> ffmpeg gives us:
2011-04-24 11:00 <dvdk> oh my god that list is too long for irc.
2011-04-24 11:00 <wolfspraul> yes
2011-04-24 11:00 <wolfspraul> white-list is better
2011-04-24 11:00 <wolfspraul> mp2 is arguably ok btw, or so I read
2011-04-24 11:00 <wolfspraul> ogg
2011-04-24 11:00 <wolfspraul> flac
2011-04-24 11:00 <dvdk> mpeg1 and mp2, yes the xiph stuff i know.
2011-04-24 11:01 <wolfspraul> what else do we need?
2011-04-24 11:01 <dvdk> the codecs used on mobile phones amrnb etc. are ok ?  dunno
2011-04-24 11:01 <dvdk> h261 should be ok?
2011-04-24 11:01 <wolfspraul> don't know
2011-04-24 11:01 <wolfspraul> wait until someone wants them
2011-04-24 11:01 <dvdk> ok, pragmatic.
2011-04-24 11:02 <dvdk> but what about demuxers? no patents on them?  only allow mpeg, avi, ogg, mkv?
2011-04-24 11:03 <wolfspraul> don't know. like I said I would add things case by case as needed.
2011-04-24 11:03 <wolfspraul> seems Ogg is a good starting point
2011-04-24 11:04 <wolfspraul> then FLAC, seems popular on some p2p sites and should be patent-safe
2011-04-24 11:04 <dvdk> wolfspraul: ogg alone won't help much, very limited container.  mkv is open-source and used by webm, so should be ok, too
2011-04-24 11:04 <wolfspraul> that's all I can tell you about
2011-04-24 11:04 <wolfspraul> great, you know this much better than me :-)
2011-04-24 11:04 <dvdk> of course, flac
2011-04-24 11:04 <wolfspraul> I can only say - whitelist, case by case upon request, and then we look into the threat situation
2011-04-24 11:04 <dvdk> wolfspraul: already patched configure to not include codecs by default
2011-04-24 11:05 <dvdk> start with zero, then whitelist
2011-04-24 11:05 <wolfspraul> great
2011-04-24 11:05 <dvdk> ok, that's a short list of codecs to enable :)
2011-04-24 12:16 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (horror movie) heh, nice idea ;-) alas, the part where the things is shown in action is very short compared to the rest. not sure if my cutting improved that, though
2011-04-24 12:47 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: (video)you like like make suspense !!
2011-04-24 12:49 <kristianpaul> that room light switching was misterious.. actually i get cautght first by the "OPEN" green msg at the left :)
2011-04-24 12:58 <kristianpaul> hmm suspiciously the ben lcm get white just in the time it is showing up in the big screen, is it  light issue or?..
2011-04-24 13:06 <viric> Before the dvdk code.... how was the video playing in the nanonote?
2011-04-24 13:06 <viric> How could it be usable?
2011-04-24 13:08 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (white screen) that's just when i turn off the lcd clock. then the display fades. i need to turn off lcd refresh because it would take away precious bus bandwidth. and it would also add noise to my timing.
2011-04-24 13:12 <kristianpaul> ah ok
2011-04-24 13:13 <viric> wolfspraul: The nanonote plays VP8 video just fine!
2011-04-24 13:15 <kristianpaul> :o
2011-04-24 13:15 <viric> I've just encoded a video, and it even takes less cpu than theora decoding
2011-04-24 13:16 <viric> encoded in the PC, played in the nanonote.
2011-04-24 13:18 <viric> But I see flicking
2011-04-24 13:19 <wolfspraul> viric: you mean in terms of including vp8 in the whitelisted codecs?
2011-04-24 13:19 <viric> wolfspraul: yes
2011-04-24 13:19 <wolfspraul> I think it should be fine, right? I am not aware of any agressor there, right now.
2011-04-24 13:19 <viric> google says it's caring that there are no patent infringement in it
2011-04-24 13:19 <wolfspraul> there's also dirac, which for some reason seems to get little attention but technically is not bad
2011-04-24 13:20 <wolfspraul> sure, let's whitelist it then :-) [vp8]
2011-04-24 13:20 <viric> isn't it for some peculiar bandwidth?
2011-04-24 13:20 <viric> very low bandwidth, or so
2011-04-24 13:20 <viric> I forgot its advantadges
2011-04-24 13:21 <wolfspraul> no I think it's general purpose
2011-04-24 13:21 <viric> ah
2011-04-24 13:21 <wolfspraul> just no big corporate giant behind it
2011-04-24 13:21 <wolfspraul> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_%28codec%29
2011-04-24 13:22 <viric> it looks like dirac requires a FPU
2011-04-24 13:24 <wolfspraul> no idea, it just came to mind when you mentioned vp8 as another potentially whitelisted codec
2011-04-24 13:24 <wolfspraul> I have never once seen dirac in use, anywhere :-)
2011-04-24 13:31 <wpwrak> VP8 should be about as safe a google money :)
2011-04-24 13:31 <viric> 'google money'?
2011-04-24 13:32 <wpwrak> viric: google are trying to push that codec. if someone got sued over it and lost, that would be very very bad press for google.
2011-04-24 13:33 <viric> btw, mplayer seeks perfectly in matroska containers, but it crashes on ogg containers
2011-04-24 13:33 <viric> wpwrak: I agree
2011-04-24 13:33 <wolfspraul> that's my concern over VP8, that it is Google. This will be hashed out in the old boys club between Google, MPEG, Apple, Microsoft, etc.
2011-04-24 13:34 <wpwrak> viric: so if we'd run into problems with it, it's very likely that google would try to help. particularly given that qi-hw's business ethics are about as evil as mother theresa's, so it would look even worse.
2011-04-24 13:34 <viric> well
2011-04-24 13:34 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: yes, it may get you drawn into a battle, that's true
2011-04-24 13:34 <viric> mother theresa is not a very good example I suppose
2011-04-24 13:34 <wolfspraul> I wouldn't expect one dime of support, or one tear, for that kind of logic.
2011-04-24 13:34 <viric> She is famous for his war against gays
2011-04-24 13:35 <wpwrak> viric: (mother theresa) in public opinion ;-)
2011-04-24 13:35 <wolfspraul> this is not how things work in the real world
2011-04-24 13:35 <wolfspraul> anyway, we see where VP8 goes. at this moment I agree we can consider it to be a free codec.
2011-04-24 13:36 <viric> yes
2011-04-24 13:36 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: naw, if someone got burned for using VP8, others would shun it too. that would be bad for google's investment into it and the value they expect it to have.
2011-04-24 13:36 <wolfspraul> fine but there are dozens of players, who knows who cares about what.
2011-04-24 13:36 <wolfspraul> many of them will not give a damn about someone else's reputation
2011-04-24 13:37 <wolfspraul> but we should give VP8 the benefit of the doubt, otherwise we are just in FUD land ourselves, cannot operate like that...
2011-04-24 13:37 <wolfspraul> hey, many may not even give a damn about their own reputation, as long as they get filthy rich
2011-04-24 13:37 <wolfspraul> that wouldn't be unheard of, I think is safe to say :-)
2011-04-24 13:39 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (reputation) what i mean is that qi-hw would look 100% the victim. if, say, microsoft got burnt over vp8. half the world would celebrate and the rest would say that they can very well help themselves. so there would be much less incentive for google to lend a helping hand.
2011-04-24 13:46 <wolfspraul> I think in politics you celebrate victory strictly only after it's really over. Until then, even 1 second before the end, expect any dirt from any direction :-) No, I wouldn't count on anything in such a scenario.
2011-04-24 13:47 <wolfspraul> and I wouldn't want to be in it even, that's why I still prefer peaceful and more or less forgotten (by the mainstream) Ogg Theora...
2011-04-24 13:49 <wolfspraul> I think several people emailed google about their vp8 ic cores - no response
2011-04-24 13:49 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: with ogg, you'd have the whole free software world up in arms. that may not be too bad either.
2011-04-24 13:49 <wolfspraul> correct
2011-04-24 13:49 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: but yes, staying under the rader is a good strategy as well
2011-04-24 13:50 <wolfspraul> stay close to home, don't venture too far
2011-04-24 13:50 <wolfspraul> if you really want to pick a fight with Google, Apple, etc. first thing you need to get in touch with high-profile lobbyists, high-profile lawyers, high-profile anything
2011-04-24 13:50 <wolfspraul> and why would they even want to talk with you? they have their own agenda. and so on...
2011-04-24 13:50 <wolfspraul> bah
2011-04-24 13:52 <wolfspraul> maybe you could pull a groklaw and do it all grass-roots, but that kind of thing is rare, and even groklaw is shutting down now
2011-04-24 13:53 <wolfspraul> that was a strange coincidence of forces to overlap from one field (free software) into another (law). but you should not count on this happening again, at least I wouldn't.
2011-04-24 13:53 <wolfspraul> so you may be crushed, and nobody cares
2011-04-24 13:53 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: all i'm saying that it would hurt google if someone lost a lawsuit over vp8. in terms of reputation ("i trusted google and lost"), in terms of discrediting their technology and their assurances ("it's not as safe as they claimed"), and perhaps also in terms of establishing a precedent. so it would only be logic if google tried to help you win that case.
2011-04-24 13:53 <wolfspraul> that's happening every day, thousands of times
2011-04-24 13:54 <wolfspraul> only if you connect it to a pr campaign
2011-04-24 13:54 <wolfspraul> and a successful one
2011-04-24 13:54 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: "copyleft hardware company sued over VP8" that pr writes itself ;-))
2011-04-24 13:54 <wpwrak> make that "Google's VP8"
2011-04-24 13:54 <wolfspraul> I'm telling you it's all work.
2011-04-24 13:55 <wolfspraul> it's not like you or me are the loudspeaker of the world, and the other 7 billion are waking up wondering each day what we have to tell them today
2011-04-24 13:55 <wolfspraul> I would never believe in vp8 hoping that if there was a problem, Google would come help me.
2011-04-24 13:55 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: no, but everyone who is contemplating the use of VP8 because of its supposed patent-free state would want to listen in this case
2011-04-24 13:56 <wolfspraul> only that I say "nice story, google pr team" :-)
2011-04-24 13:56 <wolfspraul> yes, but getting that message out is hard work in itself
2011-04-24 13:56 <wolfspraul> I'm not saying it's impossible, I understand you.
2011-04-24 13:56 <wolfspraul> but it will not happen by itself, and there are many strategies.
2011-04-24 13:56 <wolfspraul> google may also distance themselves from you
2011-04-24 13:56 <wolfspraul> if you even get them to issue 1 press release including your name
2011-04-24 13:57 <wolfspraul> "this case is about XYZ, not about VP8."
2011-04-24 13:57 <wolfspraul> what do you do then?
2011-04-24 13:57 <wolfspraul> that press release will be picked up globally
2011-04-24 13:57 <wolfspraul> you counter it saying "no!"
2011-04-24 13:57 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-04-24 13:57 <wolfspraul> ha ha
2011-04-24 13:57 <wolfspraul> I want to see how that continues :-)
2011-04-24 13:57 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: you should probably contact them before making a press release :)
2011-04-24 13:58 <wolfspraul> no I meant them, I'm just randomly suggesting another approach for Google, the "that's not our stuff" approach.
2011-04-24 13:58 <wolfspraul> they won't even do you the favor of listing your name in their statement
2011-04-24 13:58 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: sure, they can do that. but it may make them look even worse.
2011-04-24 13:58 <wolfspraul> may
2011-04-24 13:58 <wolfspraul> but their loudspeaker first of all is 1000 times louder than yours
2011-04-24 13:58 <wolfspraul> they will first try the easy thing to get over this
2011-04-24 13:58 <wolfspraul> they are fighting with stuff every day, they also need to keep their desks clean
2011-04-24 13:59 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: do you think they have lawsuits over VP8 going on at the moment ?
2011-04-24 13:59 <wolfspraul> hmm. pure speculation.
2011-04-24 13:59 <wolfspraul> you might think that some lawyers somewhere are looking at this, for sure.
2011-04-24 14:00 <wolfspraul> maybe some are collecting evidence, preparing a case
2011-04-24 14:00 <wolfspraul> there is a lot you can do before 'lawsuit', i.e. going to a public court
2011-04-24 14:00 <wolfspraul> I'm sure Google's legal time has ongoing VP8 related work
2011-04-24 14:01 <wolfspraul> I trust Google here actually.
2011-04-24 14:01 <wolfspraul> they want this thing to 'just work' so they can spread their ads.
2011-04-24 14:01 <wolfspraul> will Apple/Microsoft really go all-in over this? no idea. just random speculation.
2011-04-24 14:01 <wolfspraul> right now it seems the smartphones wars keep them busy
2011-04-24 14:04 <wpwrak> yeah. a good way to occupy the giants :)
2011-04-24 14:04 <wolfspraul> I am sure there are private attempts under-way for VP8 licensing arrangements.
2011-04-24 14:04 <wolfspraul> that's pretty much a given
2011-04-24 14:04 <wolfspraul> the MPEG LA will 'suggest' this or that to Google
2011-04-24 14:04 <wolfspraul> I think that we can be sure of.
2011-04-24 14:05 <wolfspraul> mostly they want money, not go to court with all sorts of pesky rules. SO those licensing negotiations may drag on for years.
2011-04-24 14:06 <viric> Isn't it simply nice for quite all the parties (apart from the patent owners that want revenue)?
2011-04-24 14:06 <wolfspraul> as a side effect of the licensing negotiations they can start to create documents/paper-trail for going to court later, but that's several steps later due to the uncertainties once they do that
2011-04-24 14:06 <viric> VP8 decoderes in hardware, in software, all for free for everyone.
2011-04-24 14:07 <wolfspraul> viric: keep in mind how the 'patent protection' works
2011-04-24 14:07 <wolfspraul> I love to explain it to you.
2011-04-24 14:07 <viric> :D
2011-04-24 14:07 <wolfspraul> it's a way for all of us to become rich
2011-04-24 14:07 <wolfspraul> we can sell the same thing many times
2011-04-24 14:07 <wolfspraul> nobody 'owns' anything
2011-04-24 14:07 <wolfspraul> it's a form of communism actually
2011-04-24 14:07 <wolfspraul> so it works like this
2011-04-24 14:07 <wolfspraul> on your website, you call your friends to submit 'patents' to you that make VP8 a 'safe' technology
2011-04-24 14:08 <wolfspraul> when you have a whole stack of such patents, you offer all VP8 users the safety of your protection by virtue of a payment into your bank account
2011-04-24 14:08 <wolfspraul> that's all
2011-04-24 14:08 <wolfspraul> for those that don't understand the beauty of your protection, your stick are the public courts
2011-04-24 14:08 <wolfspraul> you can do this
2011-04-24 14:09 <viric> Do you think companies are not starting to put vp8 on their devices afraid of something?
2011-04-24 14:09 <wolfspraul> and if Werner likes your business model, he can start too, asking his friends to submit, creating another 'safety' pool, and charging the same people you are charging already
2011-04-24 14:09 <wolfspraul> you can even sell your customer list to him!
2011-04-24 14:09 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: you think that's the plan behind OIN and such ?
2011-04-24 14:09 <wolfspraul> there's more and more money everywhere, can you see it?
2011-04-24 14:09 <wolfspraul> no more house flipping
2011-04-24 14:09 <wolfspraul> let's get into patents now
2011-04-24 14:09 <viric> I've not understood clearly 'my role', 'my website', and all that in the explanation... I may need more words
2011-04-24 14:10 <viric> I don't understand 'submit patents' either
2011-04-24 14:10 <wolfspraul> ok I was just kidding anyway
2011-04-24 14:10 <viric> :)
2011-04-24 14:10 <wolfspraul> that 'submit' can be left very undefined
2011-04-24 14:10 <wolfspraul> you can run the whole scheme on pure fear
2011-04-24 14:10 <wolfspraul> the power of words
2011-04-24 14:10 <wolfspraul> when you write to your customers, you don't need to tell them exactly which patents you own
2011-04-24 14:10 <wolfspraul> you just need a good name and logo
2011-04-24 14:10 <wolfspraul> viric: which country do you live in?
2011-04-24 14:10 <viric> So, I would be selling some assurance that the payer will not be infringing anything
2011-04-24 14:11 <wolfspraul> yes!
2011-04-24 14:11 <viric> ok
2011-04-24 14:11 <viric> then I got it
2011-04-24 14:11 <wolfspraul> that they are not infringing on the intellectual property of you and your friends
2011-04-24 14:12 <viric> wolfspraul: I live in Catalonia, but most governments in the world won't recognize it as a "country" by internationally agreed legal terms.
2011-04-24 14:12 <viric> wolfspraul: and thus I'm counted as a Spanish citizen
2011-04-24 14:12 <viric> regardless of my opinion.
2011-04-24 14:12 <wpwrak> viric: no, you can't sell an assurance against infringing on anything. you can sell an assurance that you won't go after them, though. whether they accept or not depends on how dangerous they think you are. see SCO and those (few) licenses they sold.
2011-04-24 14:12 <viric> wpwrak: ah clear. ok.
2011-04-24 14:13 <wolfspraul> yes, my wording may not have been very precise.
2011-04-24 14:13 <wolfspraul> and SCO probably shows you the limits of the model, I agree with Werner.
2011-04-24 14:13 <wolfspraul> I don't understand OIN, no idea.
2011-04-24 14:14 <wolfspraul> let's hope Google can keep VP8 free
2011-04-24 14:14 <wolfspraul> even if they drag out any public lawsuits for a few years, with endless licensing negotiations - fine by me
2011-04-24 14:14 <viric> and Google advertised itself as assuming responsabilities if VP8 infringes any patent, proposing its own lawyer forces to protect VP8 users?
2011-04-24 14:14 <wolfspraul> Google cannot do that
2011-04-24 14:14 <wolfspraul> Google has no power over the patent system.
2011-04-24 14:15 <viric> lawyer forces
2011-04-24 14:15 <wolfspraul> Google will never ever lend out their high-paid legal team to support some Joe Doe in a patent case.
2011-04-24 14:15 <viric> So if someone gets sued for VP8 usage infringing patents, google lawyers will come as help
2011-04-24 14:15 <wolfspraul> not in a million years
2011-04-24 14:15 <viric> :)
2011-04-24 14:16 <viric> Is google using vp8 anywherE?
2011-04-24 14:16 <viric> I remember youtube used h264 in its html5...
2011-04-24 14:16 <wolfspraul> yes I think they are migrating quite strongly, no?
2011-04-24 14:16 <viric> I don't remember youtube switching from h264 to vp8
2011-04-24 14:16 <viric> maybe it happened
2011-04-24 14:16 <viric> I don't know
2011-04-24 14:17 <viric> They are closing google video, that's true. I received a letter as a google video uploader about that
2011-04-24 14:17 <viric> The first brave user of vp8 should be google itself. But I don't know how brave it is by now :)
2011-04-24 14:18 <wolfspraul> it's a very respected codec, remember it was bought from a company with quite some history
2011-04-24 14:18 <wolfspraul> it's a solid option, for sure
2011-04-24 14:18 <viric> I mean brave related to patents
2011-04-24 14:18 <wolfspraul> yeah well. that's outside of Google's control mostly.
2011-04-24 14:18 <wolfspraul> they are an attractive target because they have money.
2011-04-24 14:18 <viric> But it would look strange, if Google said VP8 is patent free and Google itself was not using it
2011-04-24 14:18 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: why should google not offer legal advise ? what they can't do is offer to just compensate for all damages, otherwise you'd have trolls going after even the least small shop, hoping for big goolg emoney
2011-04-24 14:19 <viric> GRrr how to measure the battery left in the nanontoe?
2011-04-24 14:19 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: he, correct. I see now you start to think around some corners too :-)
2011-04-24 14:19 <wolfspraul> I have no idea, it's all speculation.
2011-04-24 14:19 <wolfspraul> I would never for one second hope that Google helps me with _ANYTHING_ if I have a problem.
2011-04-24 14:19 <wolfspraul> if you want to believe that, go try and we find out... Maybe I'm wrong.
2011-04-24 14:20 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: well, it's always safer to not count on getting help
2011-04-24 14:20 <wolfspraul> and like you also noticed now - they have to be careful.
2011-04-24 14:20 <wolfspraul> there are lots of setups
2011-04-24 14:20 <viric> Grr I don't have /sys/class/power_supply/battery in 2.6.36.3
2011-04-24 14:20 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: but in this sort of case, it seems that it would be to google's disadvantage if you lost a lawsuit over their codec
2011-04-24 14:20 <wolfspraul> you create a small company, I sue you. google helps you. After some more twists we both get rich from google money :-)
2011-04-24 14:21 <wolfspraul> if you think that kind of thing cannot happen, well...
2011-04-24 14:21 <wolfspraul> if there even were a 0.001% chance that it might work, someone will try
2011-04-24 14:21 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: yes, of course. or you sell a ben with all codecs under the sun, including vp8. then sisvel knocks on your door for mp3 and you run to google crying about vp8.
2011-04-24 14:22 <wolfspraul> I want to stay out of all this.
2011-04-24 14:22 <wolfspraul> I want to make products that work, build a customer base, grow it. Have real users. etc.
2011-04-24 14:22 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i note with approval that you've been thinking of ways to improve the financial situation of sharim ;-)
2011-04-24 14:23 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: create a sister company that takes care of the legal issues, suism.cc ;-)
2011-04-24 14:24 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-04-24 14:26 <wpwrak> the first product would not be the ben nanonote but the qizha patent pool :)
2011-04-24 14:26 <wpwrak> hey, who understands chinese IP laws anyway ? a golden opportunity for a reign of FUD ;-)
2011-04-24 14:32 <kristianpaul> hahah
2011-04-24 14:52 <rozzin> trollism.cc. I might actually like to have that one....
2011-04-24 14:54 <rozzin> http://mimiandeunice.com/2010/09/06/lawyerarchy/
2011-04-24 14:54 <wpwrak> jumo.cc ?
2011-04-24 14:54 <wpwrak> (according to google translate, "ju mo" is chinese for "troll")
2011-04-24 14:54 <wpwrak> darn. already taken.
2011-04-24 14:56 <wpwrak> hmm, i don't think they taste so good. i'd just throw them away, with the other kitchen garbage :)
2011-04-24 14:57 <wpwrak> let the rats and stray dogs have some nice meal, too
2011-04-24 15:55 <dvdk> viric: done some more benchmarking?  how much is vorbis decoding costing us?
2011-04-24 15:55 <viric> dvdk: ~50%, audio+video for bbb.ogv
2011-04-24 15:56 <viric> dvdk: ~40% for vorbis+vp8+mkv
2011-04-24 15:56 <viric> for the same size. 256x144
2011-04-24 15:56 <dvdk> viric: and the audio part?  we can speed audio up a little, albeit at cost of lower quality
2011-04-24 15:56 <dvdk> viric: already mailed, asking how you encoded  the video.
2011-04-24 15:56 <viric> ah wait, the vorbis+vp8+mkv test has 64kb/s audio
2011-04-24 15:57 <viric> not fair, I imagine. I think bbb.ogv has a higher rte
2011-04-24 15:57 <viric> rate
2011-04-24 15:57 <dvdk> no bbb.ogv has quality=0 i.e. 55-65kb/s
2011-04-24 15:57 <viric> ah ok
2011-04-24 15:57 <dvdk> viric: encode by quality, not bitrate.  bitrate constraints are bad for ogg and theora
2011-04-24 15:58 <dvdk> how did you encode?  standard ffmpeg?
2011-04-24 15:58 <viric> so, basically... 'ffmpeg -vcodec libvpx -acodec libvorbis -ss 256x144'
2011-04-24 15:58 <viric> The rest, filenames.
2011-04-24 15:58 <viric> I even did not specify any quality :D
2011-04-24 15:59 <viric> The original video is x264, 640x360 15fps 500kbps, 64kbps audio
2011-04-24 15:59 <viric> audio in AAC
2011-04-24 16:00 <viric> dvdk: I thought '-v X' was for setting the quality, and I later saw it was the verbosity level. hehe
2011-04-24 16:00 <dvdk> ok, so i need libvpx or is that ffmpeg-internal?
2011-04-24 16:01 <dvdk> what size has the resulting file?
2011-04-24 16:01 <kyak> dvdk: (ffmpeg makefile) yes, they use that nice Config.in trick
2011-04-24 16:01 <dvdk> tried to encode for full-screen 320x176 or sth?
2011-04-24 16:01 <viric> 1h30m, 130MB
2011-04-24 16:01 <dvdk> kyak: teh new mplayer makefile won't be that nice, though :)  well not in the first version, anyways
2011-04-24 16:01 <viric> ah no wait. This is my last test at 320x180 size.
2011-04-24 16:02 <viric> dvdk: btw, there is flickering
2011-04-24 16:02 <dvdk> viric: about 2MB/minute, that's about as good as ffmpeg2theora -v8
2011-04-24 16:02 <dvdk> viric: from the accel or from the encode?
2011-04-24 16:02 <kyak> dvdk: it's nice enough as long as it works ;)
2011-04-24 16:02 <viric> I can't say.
2011-04-24 16:03 <dvdk> viric: there may be minimal frame tearing due to video refresh rate != lcd refresh rate.  but it's hardly noticeable.
2011-04-24 16:03 <viric> The video I encode has a scene at the beginning that shows the flickering very clearly
2011-04-24 16:03 <dvdk> viric: only on NN or also on pc?
2011-04-24 16:04 <viric> only on NN
2011-04-24 16:04 <viric> I may send you the first seconds
2011-04-24 16:06 <viric> http://vicerveza.homeunix.net/~viric/tmp/prova-flickering.mkv
2011-04-24 16:06 <dvdk> viric: not even sure my mplayer build can decode it, but good for testing
2011-04-24 16:06 <kristianpaul> ah, CGA is not QVGA..
2011-04-24 16:07 <kristianpaul> yeah README already explain why..
2011-04-24 16:07 <viric> It's about a documentary on Kissinger :)
2011-04-24 16:07 <dvdk> viric: it says 'video codec: ffodivx ffmpeg mpeg-4'
2011-04-24 16:07 <viric> dvdk: :D right. I thought ffmpeg would 'copy'
2011-04-24 16:08 <dvdk> -acodec copy -vcodec copy ?
2011-04-24 16:08 <viric> I set that, and it outputs divx
2011-04-24 16:08 <viric> ah now
2011-04-24 16:08 <viric> dvdk: redownload
2011-04-24 16:09 <viric> (I needed '-vcodec copy -acodec copy' *before* the -i file)
2011-04-24 16:10 <dvdk> still the same
2011-04-24 16:10 <viric> eh?
2011-04-24 16:10 <viric> ah
2011-04-24 16:10 <viric> now
2011-04-24 16:10 <dvdk> ok.  ffvp8
2011-04-24 16:10 <viric> :)
2011-04-24 16:11 <viric> dvdk: I noticed the horizontal artifacts at some lines
2011-04-24 16:12 <viric> And on sharp edges, I can also notice (unfortunately) the peculiarity of the nanonote LCD
2011-04-24 16:16 <kristianpaul> linphone-nox a voip client for the nanonote?
2011-04-24 16:18 <LunaVorax_mini> Talking about the packages, why is cdparanoia available for the nanonote. Is a CD-Drive extension planned ? ;P
2011-04-24 16:19 <viric> LunaVorax_mini: you can use it through network block devices (nbd) :)
2011-04-24 16:19 <dvdk> viric: this looks like frame tearing
2011-04-24 16:19 <dvdk> viric: when i press pause, i see no artifacts
2011-04-24 16:19 <viric> dvdk: about what?
2011-04-24 16:20 <dvdk> viric: looks like vp8 needs so much ram bandwidth, that screen redraws are lowed down?
2011-04-24 16:20 <dvdk> viric: your example video
2011-04-24 16:20 <LunaVorax_mini> oh really viric :o I didn't knew that
2011-04-24 16:21 <viric> I used nbd long ago, when I used to have only one machine in the LAN with a DVD drive, to play DVD videos :)
2011-04-24 16:21 <viric> dvdk: I've not played that 320x180 video in the nanonote. I only played a 256x144 version of it
2011-04-24 16:22 <viric> dvdk: maybe 320x180 is too much for the nn?
2011-04-24 16:22 <dvdk> viric: looks ok, just need some time at the start of the video to get to speed (tlb misses etc.)
2011-04-24 16:22 <viric> dvdk: in general, the vp8 file I tried used less CPU (according to 'top') than the theora.
2011-04-24 16:22 <LunaVorax_mini> dvdk, according to what I read, vp8 seriously need to be fixed anyway
2011-04-24 16:22 <viric> LunaVorax_mini: fixing what?
2011-04-24 16:25 <LunaVorax_mini> I'm not a coder, go read this article to have detail I wouldn't be able to give you http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/archives/377
2011-04-24 16:27 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: have you seen, we now have video out ! ;-)
2011-04-24 16:30 <LunaVorax_mini> what what what what ?
2011-04-24 16:30 <LunaVorax_mini> I need to see that !
2011-04-24 16:32 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: ah, you don't read the mailing list ? :)
2011-04-24 16:32 <LunaVorax_mini> I'm sorry not yet
2011-04-24 16:32 <LunaVorax_mini> Not YET
2011-04-24 16:32 <LunaVorax_mini> ;)
2011-04-24 16:32 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: video: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/7/76/Ben_UBB_VGA.ogv
2011-04-24 16:33 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: more information: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-April/007817.html
2011-04-24 16:36 <LunaVorax_mini> Holly crud ! That's awesome
2011-04-24 16:36 <LunaVorax_mini> I didn't knew at all that the minisd card slot was offering so much possibilities :o
2011-04-24 16:36 <LunaVorax_mini> That's insanely awesome
2011-04-24 16:37 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: in fact, we can even do a little better. i now have doubled the number of updates (at half the pixel clock) and it more or less works at least on one of my monitors
2011-04-24 16:38 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: (possibilities) never underestimate the power of bitbanging ;-)
2011-04-24 16:38 <LunaVorax_mini> That's fantastic wpwrak
2011-04-24 16:40 <kyak> now, that UBB-VGA output by wpwrak fits together well with job being done by dvdk :)
2011-04-24 16:40 <LunaVorax_mini> That's not true 320x240, I understood it right ?
2011-04-24 16:43 <wpwrak> kyak: alas, you can't combine the two. each already eats most of the memory nbandwidth
2011-04-24 16:44 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: it's somewhere between 160-320x240, with line doubling
2011-04-24 16:44 <kyak> wpwrak: hm.. are you saying there is no practical application for that thing ? -\
2011-04-24 16:45 <wpwrak> kyak: you could use it for slide shows and similar applications
2011-04-24 16:47 <kyak> still, it is very good
2011-04-24 16:49 <LunaVorax_mini> No transition but is the Ya Nanonote still planned
2011-04-24 16:49 <LunaVorax_mini> And therefore planned for 2012 ?
2011-04-24 16:51 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: i think the ya will be planned as soon as someone provides funding :)
2011-04-24 16:52 <LunaVorax_mini> How much do you need ?
2011-04-24 16:54 <kyak> (in most cases, this question is followed by money ;)
2011-04-24 16:55 <LunaVorax_mini> haha
2011-04-24 16:55 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: i guess about 500 kUSD may be sufficient. my lowest estimate would be around 300 kUSD, but that's probably too low
2011-04-24 16:56 <LunaVorax_mini> Hum ok
2011-04-24 16:56 <LunaVorax_mini> You need 1000 fanboys like me then
2011-04-24 16:56 <LunaVorax_mini> :D
2011-04-24 16:56 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: that would be development and a small (3 kunits) initial production run
2011-04-24 16:56 <LunaVorax_mini> Ok, I see
2011-04-24 16:58 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: also assumes very few people on the payroll and them working with compensation close to subsistence level
2011-04-24 16:58 <wpwrak> in other words, the community needs to participate as well. otherwise R&D cost goes up quite a bit.
2011-04-24 16:59 <LunaVorax_mini> Ok I see
2011-04-24 17:00 <LunaVorax_mini> I think it's time to save for a donation
2011-04-24 17:00 <LunaVorax_mini> Count on me I'll do so asap
2011-04-24 17:03 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: cool, thanks ! i don't know what wolfgang thinks of donations as a means of financing, but if it comes to that, any contribution would be welcome
2011-04-24 17:05 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: btw, with community participation, i meant sharing the design work. we did part of this in the gta02-core project and it worked quite nicely for a while. the problem we had there was that we depended on openmoko.com to supply components. and this promise was never fulfilled.
2011-04-24 17:06 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: hmm, if you want a ben-phone, you could just add a GSM module ...
2011-04-24 17:07 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: i have one
2011-04-24 17:07 <kristianpaul> (GSM Module)
2011-04-24 17:07 <kristianpaul> but too big too muchs wires, is a sim548
2011-04-24 17:07 <kristianpaul> also the board dint router voice part..
2011-04-24 17:07 <LunaVorax_mini> wpwrak,
2011-04-24 17:07 <kristianpaul> anyway
2011-04-24 17:08 <LunaVorax_mini> wpwrak, in some way, donations is the only efficient way for me to contribute to what you are doing as my programming and electronic design knowledge are very limited for now
2011-04-24 17:09 <LunaVorax_mini> So far the only "usefull" thing I've done was to show the Ben to people at knowledge and impress them about "how small it is" ;)
2011-04-24 17:09 <LunaVorax_mini> Funny to see that in some people's head "computer" = "big"
2011-04-24 17:12 <LunaVorax_mini> I may be na
2011-04-24 17:12 <LunaVorax_mini> naive but
2011-04-24 17:12 <LunaVorax_mini> Isn't the FSF interested about giving you some fund ?
2011-04-24 17:13 <LunaVorax_mini> Supposing that the FSF have funds to give, I don't know how they work exactly
2011-04-24 17:14 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: wich GSM Module you recomend? :-)
2011-04-24 17:14 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: hmm, i don't think the FSF sponsors projects directly
2011-04-24 17:14 <LunaVorax_mini> Ok wpwrak
2011-04-24 17:14 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: if you want to go fancy, there's a company called "option" that make nice little UMTS modules. but it may be hard to get documentation.
2011-04-24 17:15 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: otherwise, lemme dig ...
2011-04-24 17:19 <dvdk> btw anybody knows the patent status of AC3?  this is utilized in mplayer, as an audio-filter (not codec) (getting linker errors if I disable it).
2011-04-24 17:20 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: this one is nice and small: http://www.telit.com/en/products/gsm-gprs.php?p_id=12&p_ac=show&p=47
2011-04-24 17:21 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: there are also other, slightly larger models, in the same family
2011-04-24 17:21 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: note the large quantity of documentation at the bottom of the page :)
2011-04-24 17:21 <kristianpaul> wow is amll
2011-04-24 17:21 <kristianpaul> small*
2011-04-24 17:22 <kristianpaul> (doc) oh yes
2011-04-24 17:23 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: if you dig a little in gta02-core, you'll also find untested schematics and there should be a footprint for the ge864 somewhere as well
2011-04-24 17:24 <wpwrak> here it is: svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/gta02-core/ge864/ge864.fpd
2011-04-24 17:25 <wpwrak> also completely untested, of course ;-)
2011-04-24 17:25 <kristianpaul> :/
2011-04-24 17:26 <kristianpaul> anyway, may be the 3g/edge/gsm part will be just enought
2011-04-24 17:27 <qwebirc81180> hi guys, i wonder if there is the ability of booting the ben nn by 'alarm'. (bios-clock?) so the device could p.e. boot every day @ 05:00 and wake me up by music :D
2011-04-24 17:28 <qwebirc81180> would be great for using as pda
2011-04-24 17:28 <qwebirc81180> reminders are appliance #1 for pda's
2011-04-24 17:34 <wpwrak> qwebirc81180: good question :) i don't know if the hardware and the kernel support it, but i can at least not find anything quickly that would indicate it's impossible
2011-04-24 17:34 <wpwrak> qwebirc81180: i.e., you may want to experiment a bit :)
2011-04-24 17:35 <qwebirc81180> the bad is: I'm an advanced user, able to start a compile-run, but unable to really change sourcecode :\
2011-04-24 17:35 <wpwrak> qwebirc81180: here is a program that exercises the kernel's wakeup api: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/wkalrm/
2011-04-24 17:36 <wpwrak> (designed for a different architecture, but it should also work on the ben)
2011-04-24 17:36 <qwebirc81180> but in my opinion, this could massively improve the useability of the ben nn
2011-04-24 17:36 <wpwrak> qwebirc81180: change "unable" to "not yet able" ;-)
2011-04-24 17:36 <qwebirc81180> hehe, freerunner-code on ben?? :D
2011-04-24 17:37 <wpwrak> it's all linux ;-)
2011-04-24 17:37 <qwebirc81180> wpwrak: right ;) but i'm not sure if it's a good idea to start learning programming with age 53 ;)
2011-04-24 17:38 <qwebirc81180> as for linux: I'm with it since 0.99pl6 (SLS-Linux) :D
2011-04-24 17:38 <qwebirc81180> but only as user and 'make'er ;)
2011-04-24 17:39 <qwebirc81180> oh, btw, I should use my 'real' nick ;)
2011-04-24 17:39 <Fusin> :P
2011-04-24 17:41 <Fusin> is there a RTC in Ben, or does it use only software clocks?
2011-04-24 17:41 <viric> there is
2011-04-24 17:43 <LunaVorax_mini> Hum, reading the Guo Nanonote page. Are you really sure that it'll have the same design in 5years ?
2011-04-24 17:44 <LunaVorax_mini> Early question may be a stupid question :)
2011-04-24 18:37 <Fusin> .
2011-04-24 18:41 <wpwrak> Fusin: (53) bah, that's no age ;-) and the hardest part of doing anything is convincing yourself that you can do it ...
2011-04-24 18:42 <Fusin> my problem is: i already run for following evolution in hard and software technology
2011-04-24 18:42 <wpwrak> LunaVorax_mini: i wouldn't consider anything beyond a ya as anything than a small quantity of vapour released in the hard vacuum of outer space ;-)
2011-04-24 18:42 <Fusin> how could i learn to master them?
2011-04-24 18:44 <wpwrak> Fusin: mastery take s a while :) start small. pick objectives that are a little beyond your knowledge, so that they don't overwhelm you but still give you something new.
2011-04-24 18:45 <Fusin> ben is new and freerunner too (linux outside big boxes is really exiting)
2011-04-24 18:45 <Fusin> altough to tell the truth: for daily use i just ordered an android Phone and an android pad :D
2011-04-24 18:45 <Fusin> for the 'real' use
2011-04-24 18:46 <Fusin> ben and freerunner are atm toys to play with
2011-04-24 18:46 <Fusin> and for showing collegues what linux can do
2011-04-24 18:47 <wpwrak> Fusin: yeah. FR is getting a bit long in its teeth, too. well, same thing for the ben. there are many incremental improvements that could/should be made.
2011-04-24 18:54 <viric> Fusin: what *linux* can do? With an Android you can show what it can do too
2011-04-24 18:55 <Fusin> right, but android is more a gui than the os itself
2011-04-24 18:55 <viric> Fusin: and linux is only the kernel
2011-04-24 18:55 <Fusin> right
2011-04-24 18:55 <viric> :)
2011-04-24 18:56 <viric> Maybe something more like 'what companies + volunteers  publishing free software and hardware' can do
2011-04-24 18:58 <Fusin> not enough evangelists ;)
2011-04-24 19:05 <mstevens> Fusin: I want to like android but I can't get on with it
2011-04-24 19:06 <Fusin> I don't like it, I just want to use it, because it works and does what it's suposed to do. no more no less
2011-04-24 19:08 <Fusin> and it's not owned by gates nor jobs ;)
2011-04-24 20:31 <Fusin> ping
2011-04-24 22:48 <wpwrak> Fusin: (ping) you need to specify the destination address :)
2011-04-24 22:49 <Fusin> without destination we accept ALL pongs ;)
2011-04-24 22:51 <wpwrak> Fusin: still, where do you send the ping packet ? :)
2011-04-24 22:51 <Fusin> whole world :P
2011-04-24 22:51 <wpwrak> aii .. instant internet meltdown
2011-04-24 22:52 <Fusin> rofl