2011-04-21 03:38 <kristianpaul> xiangfu: ha, i catch you disasabling electronics  ;)
2011-04-21 03:38 <kristianpaul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File%3AObk-2010cw-Power-Adapter--6.JPG
2011-04-21 03:39 <kristianpaul> this lady is very smart
2011-04-21 03:39 <kristianpaul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File%3AObk-2010cw-Power-Adapter--6.JPG
2011-04-21 03:39 <kristianpaul> "Information (including all of my work) is not scarce. Attention (time) is."
2011-04-21 04:03 <xiangfu> kristianpaul: sorry. what you mean?
2011-04-21 04:35 <xiangfu> kristianpaul: the case of that adapter. is not open by me, it's open by exploded, there are some black things on that screw
2011-04-21 04:36 <xiangfu> exploded dust  :)
2011-04-21 06:14 <rjeffries> .
2011-04-21 10:52 <wpwrak> rejon: (slowpan) of course, there's the lingering question: why call it SLoWPAN if 6LoWPAN already has a perfectly good name ? after all, we don't, for example, measure current in Torvalds to honor our benevolent dictator
2011-04-21 10:53 <larsc> hm... 5owWPAN
2011-04-21 10:53 <wpwrak> rejon: the trademark issue because of which we had to rename "MicroSD" to "8:10" doesn't exist there
2011-04-21 10:54 <larsc> 5LoWPAN
2011-04-21 10:54 <larsc> as a compromise
2011-04-21 10:54 <wpwrak> larsc: Sow-pan is what you call it when it doesn't work or is too slow ;-)
2011-04-21 11:12 <dvdk> hi
2011-04-21 11:12 <dvdk> who's done the mplayer port for ben?
2011-04-21 11:12 <dvdk> kyak, was that yoyu?
2011-04-21 11:13 <dvdk> need somebody to complain to :)
2011-04-21 11:19 <wpwrak> dvdk: just imagine it was kyak while you hurl your abuse at him ;-)
2011-04-21 11:20 <dvdk> wpwrak :)
2011-04-21 11:24 <dvdk> btw have hardware-scaling support working in mplayer.
2011-04-21 11:24 <dvdk> so full-screen playback possible at 24 FPS (using less-than-fullscreen video)
2011-04-21 11:24 <wpwrak> dvdk: kewl. when will we have full HDTV ? :)
2011-04-21 11:25 <dvdk> unfortunately the ogg demuxer of our mplayer version has some problems
2011-04-21 11:25 <dvdk> wpwrak: as soon as you added the dvi port to ben :)
2011-04-21 11:25 <wpwrak> wonders if one could bit-bang DVI ...
2011-04-21 11:26 <kyak> dvdk: hi there
2011-04-21 11:27 <dvdk> kyak: mahlzeit
2011-04-21 11:27 <wpwrak> dvdk: in what range is the maximum original resolution that still yields an acceptable frame rate ?
2011-04-21 11:27 <dvdk> wpwrak: depends on the codec.  with current theora (compiled with -Os), I get 256x144 without problems (maybe 80% CPU use)
2011-04-21 11:28 <dvdk> in theory we should be able to decode 320x240 if the codec were properly optimized and compiled
2011-04-21 11:28 <dvdk> (using the hardware for yuv->rgb step only)
2011-04-21 11:28 <dvdk> quality is quite fine when looked at from 0.5m :)
2011-04-21 11:29 <dvdk> btw kyak, is that mplayer port maintained by you?
2011-04-21 11:29 <kyak> dvdk: kind of. :)
2011-04-21 11:29 <dvdk> kyak: i think we need to upgrade.  the ogg/theora demuxer seems to have a bug.
2011-04-21 11:30 <dvdk> my test video drops video after 60s (even without hw accel -vo fbdev).
2011-04-21 11:30 <dvdk> some strange message about "frame duration too long)
2011-04-21 11:30 <dvdk> PC mplayer (svn) does not have the problem
2011-04-21 11:30 <dvdk> (however mplayer svn has yet another ogg/theore bug)
2011-04-21 11:30 <kyak> dvdk: you don't need to ask for my permission to upgrade ;)
2011-04-21 11:30 <wpwrak> dvdk: not bad :)
2011-04-21 11:31 <dvdk> kyak: yeah, but I'm a little short on time here :)
2011-04-21 11:31 <kyak> dvdk: i somehow have a feeling that increasing the version in makefile would do it
2011-04-21 11:31 <kyak> there are no patches
2011-04-21 11:31 <dvdk> kyak: is there even a newer version released?
2011-04-21 11:31 <dvdk> ok, ok, going to have a loog at it.
2011-04-21 11:31 <kyak> dunno, you just told me like it did :)
2011-04-21 11:31 <dvdk> s/loog/luck
2011-04-21 11:32 <dvdk> s/loog/luck/look
2011-04-21 11:32 <dvdk> kyak: maybe we have to use svn?
2011-04-21 11:32 <kyak> i think you already proposed it once. Are you sure it's a better options than using release?
2011-04-21 11:33 <dvdk> wait, going to upload my demo video (big buck bunny) plus the new vidix driver, to help motivate you :)
2011-04-21 11:33 <kyak> all right :)
2011-04-21 11:34 <kyak> have to go now. btw, mplayer is missing libggi dependency
2011-04-21 11:34 <kyak> just letting you know
2011-04-21 11:34 <dvdk> ok. cu.
2011-04-21 11:35 <kyak> this have been in my TODO list for some time now, i was waiting for a godo change to add it in Makefile :)
2011-04-21 11:38 <wpwrak> kyak: nice ... the transition from to-do to go-do
2011-04-21 12:55 <dvdk> kyak: looks like mplayer does not release tarballs any more.  use of svn is recommended.  just looking into patching our Makefile accordingly.
2011-04-21 16:12 <vladkorotnev> hello everyone :P
2011-04-21 17:38 <rjeffries__> wpwrask there is a thin line between "realist" and "defeatist" //grin
2011-04-21 17:39 <kristianpaul> rjeffries__: what side you already cross?
2011-04-21 17:41 <rjeffries__> smiles
2011-04-21 17:41 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: indeed, and there is a line between "can't do" and "can do". very often, it exists only inside someone's mind :)
2011-04-21 17:41 <kristianpaul> :D
2011-04-21 17:41 <rjeffries__> may 1,000 flowers bloom.
2011-04-21 17:42 <rjeffries__> beleive it or not, I am not at all risk averse.
2011-04-21 17:43 <rjeffries__> new topic?
2011-04-21 17:43 <kristianpaul> ha..
2011-04-21 17:44 <rjeffries__> smiles again. anyway, why do we think Ben sales are so sluggish?
2011-04-21 17:45 <kristianpaul> may be more people thinking like some body we know...
2011-04-21 17:45 <kristianpaul> you got your ipad finally, right?
2011-04-21 17:45 <kristianpaul> :-)
2011-04-21 17:48 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: ben sales, perhaps lack of exposure. nanonote sales on general, i'd blame lack of a follow-on product
2011-04-21 17:49 <kristianpaul> you mean a missing/strong marketing strategy?
2011-04-21 17:50 <urandom__> what about lack of usb-host? :P
2011-04-21 17:50 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (exposure) visibility
2011-04-21 17:50 <rjeffries__> yes without a strong follow-on BEN is a VERY VOOL niche inside a niche inside an imperceptibly small target market
2011-04-21 17:50 <wpwrak> urandom__: "see also \"follow-on product\""
2011-04-21 17:51 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: indeed. continuity also creates long-term credibility creates access to additional markets
2011-04-21 17:52 <rjeffries__> the business case for creating a new Ben unfortunately does not exist.
2011-04-21 17:53 <rjeffries__> I can understand why wolfspraul is focusing Sharism resources in the direction og Milylisy, a totally different marejt
2011-04-21 17:53 <rjeffries__> s/marejt/market
2011-04-21 17:53 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: oh, i think the biz case for a better ben does exist.
2011-04-21 17:54 <rjeffries__> wpwrak including a new case to allow a decent keyboard and a larger touch sensitive screen?
2011-04-21 17:55 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: it's just difficult to convey to potential investors. at least difficult enough that, combined with the general lack of investor-attracting skills in the qi-hw community, it's insufficient (so far)
2011-04-21 17:55 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: i would consider a new case a requirement. i wouldn't change the form factor, though
2011-04-21 17:55 <rjeffries__> why would an investor risk capital funding something that by definition can be easily reproduced anywhere anytime? it does not compute
2011-04-21 17:56 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: if you want a netbook, there are dozens of choices. it would be insane to go there.
2011-04-21 17:56 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: likewise for a "tablet"
2011-04-21 17:56 <rjeffries__> no much smaller than netbook but enough larger to allow more comfortable use
2011-04-21 17:56 <rjeffries__> agreed
2011-04-21 17:57 <rjeffries__> there are many existence proofs (read smart phone in various packages) where one gets a larger screen, and a better keybaord
2011-04-21 17:57 <rjeffries__> actually I am not positive physical keyboard is required
2011-04-21 17:57 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: the easy reproduction anytime only happens if the reproducer is convinced there's a market share worth stealing and that there won't be severe enough punishment
2011-04-21 17:58 <urandom__> form factor is good as is but marketing must focus more on showing how small it is and that the keyboard really is awesome, though we need bigger screen so that it doesnt look like a toy anymore
2011-04-21 17:58 <rjeffries__> what are the use cases that make a Ben compelling...
2011-04-21 17:58 <rjeffries__> other than "I want a totally open device"
2011-04-21 17:59 <rjeffries__> That's it, end of story. it does not approach a smart phone form two years ago in usability
2011-04-21 17:59 <urandom__> i would like to see an nanonote with fpga, so we get the fpga hacker also and are more flexibel
2011-04-21 18:00 <kristianpaul> may be fpga with built-in arm chip.. :-)
2011-04-21 18:00 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: well, it all depends on what you're trying to sell in the end, and to whom. if it's devices to regular consumers, it's difficult. if it's devices to vars, openness is an enabler and a very strong differentiator as well.
2011-04-21 18:00 <mth> the biggest NN limitation for the average consumer is no wireless internet, imo
2011-04-21 18:01 <kristianpaul> is ebook market still young?
2011-04-21 18:01 <wpwrak> urandom__: i think an fpha nanonote would only make sense after a ben successor. there are still many important things we don't "own" yet.
2011-04-21 18:01 <rjeffries__> mth you are correct and that is off the table because of philosophical reason
2011-04-21 18:01 <wpwrak> urandom__: such as mechanical design
2011-04-21 18:01 <kristianpaul> but. nah devel time sloq down those toughts..
2011-04-21 18:01 <kristianpaul> slow*
2011-04-21 18:02 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: how long take freerunner to be developed btw?
2011-04-21 18:02 <rjeffries__> I don't want to own this mechanical design, but a new fresh approach would be interesting
2011-04-21 18:02 <kristianpaul> s/take/took
2011-04-21 18:02 <urandom__> the nanonote makes a good translator/e-book, those stuff isnt cheap, we just need to make user friendly software
2011-04-21 18:03 <wpwrak> mth: my list of troublemakers has: usb host, wireless, display resolution, memory. not sure about the ranking.
2011-04-21 18:03 <kristianpaul> indeed with urandom__
2011-04-21 18:03 <wpwrak> mth: (troublemakers) for first sales
2011-04-21 18:03 <mth> wpwrak: bluetooth is also encumbered? because sharing a network connection with a phone would also be an option
2011-04-21 18:03 <rjeffries__> wpwrak add some more i/o in particulat I2C, also a second 8:10 port
2011-04-21 18:04 <kristianpaul> better fint the another vesion of the color digital dictionary and free it?
2011-04-21 18:04 <kristianpaul> that take time a cost, but surelly is cheap than develop own hardware
2011-04-21 18:05 <wpwrak> mth: BT is also a problem, yes. it may not even be so much the standards per se, but access to chips/modules. if you can't get chips with useful documentation, you lose.
2011-04-21 18:05 <kristianpaul> anyone with all the interes and time, can help on the support of touch screen displays, so a mechincal side could be develop faster i gues..
2011-04-21 18:05 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: oh, i definitely want two 8:10 ports :) one inside, one outside
2011-04-21 18:05 <rjeffries__> keyboard needs backlight
2011-04-21 18:05 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: yup
2011-04-21 18:06 <kristianpaul> btw you can use a UBB for a DIY led light ;)
2011-04-21 18:06 <kristianpaul> s/a/an
2011-04-21 18:06 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: true ;-))
2011-04-21 18:07 <wpwrak> i have a set of mean high-power leds. should adapt one ;-) unfortunately, they're all soldered to some board that's not very useful in hindsight
2011-04-21 18:07 <kristianpaul> i think thats something rjeffries__ can achieve at home easilly :-)
2011-04-21 18:07 <kristianpaul> high-power leds = how may watts? :o
2011-04-21 18:09 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: maybe around one. don't quite remember.
2011-04-21 18:09 <kristianpaul> oh
2011-04-21 18:09 <kristianpaul> thats fair good
2011-04-21 18:12 <wpwrak> i think it's these: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=475-2617-1-ND
2011-04-21 18:12 <wpwrak> maximum power 1075 mW
2011-04-21 18:16 <kristianpaul> he, for a moment i tought re-use the freerunner touch-display with milkymist  ..
2011-04-21 18:28 <mth> wpwrak: what about an internal USB bus? for example the wifi in the Wii is accessed via USB. or is that not open enough?
2011-04-21 18:43 <kristianpaul> http://openwear.org/lookmap, we add that to the woldgang freedom pyramid
2011-04-21 18:44 <kristianpaul> we should*
2011-04-21 18:44 <kristianpaul> moment, where is the source..
2011-04-21 18:48 <wpwrak> mth: you mean to have a bus in general ? or specifically for wlan ?
2011-04-21 18:48 <mth> wpwrak: the bluetooth is also connected to it
2011-04-21 18:49 <mth> maybe even the SD reader, but it's been a while since I was messing around with that kernel
2011-04-21 18:49 <mth> in any case, it has 2 busses, one which is connected to a USB port and another for built-in peripherals
2011-04-21 18:56 <rjeffries__> USB hub inside next nanonote is a Good Idea woukd allow Much Freedom (to add new goodies)
2011-04-21 18:57 <Jay7> usb over slowpan :)
2011-04-21 18:58 <rjeffries__> wpwrak you did not mention this on your list but any Ingenic-based next Nanonote would use a new SOC such as 4760 for many valid reasons
2011-04-21 19:00 <rjeffries__> for a new product are people willing to stay with 320x240 resolution?
2011-04-21 19:02 <mth> wpwrak: wiibrew.org says the wifi is actually accessed via an internal SDIO bus, but the bluetooth is via an internal USB bus
2011-04-21 19:02 <urandom__> rjeffries__ i would but of course higher screen resolution would help with many apps
2011-04-21 19:04 <urandom__> actuelly being limited to 320x240 is also interesting. forces you to focus on what is important
2011-04-21 19:06 <rjeffries__> the advantages of increased screen real estate are significant for usability
2011-04-21 19:06 <wpwrak> rjeffries__: (4760) yup. it may just not be an easily externally visible shortcoming.
2011-04-21 19:22 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: you thiks this schm is okay for a 3v3 to 5V level convertion for Ben with a UBB https://sites.google.com/site/pinguinotutorial/wrt54gl/conv533.png?attredirects=0
2011-04-21 19:24 <kristianpaul> I was thiking an opto isolated addon, but i need to source if the local electronic shop sells "optoacopladores"
2011-04-21 19:31 <kristianpaul> hmm LVT-xx
2011-04-21 19:34 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: the local shop will almost certainly have them. they're very very common.
2011-04-21 19:34 <kristianpaul> i hope here..
2011-04-21 19:35 <kristianpaul> btw to save me some reading do you rememnber mac current i can driver with the 8:10 port?
2011-04-21 19:36 <kristianpaul> s/port/pins
2011-04-21 19:36 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: your diodes probably have better counterparts inside the chips. so they may not do much. also, if one side is entirely 3.3 V and the other entirely 5 V, you don't need to clamp the 3.3 V -> 5 V direction
2011-04-21 19:36 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: on the I/Os ... i think about 4 mA
2011-04-21 19:37 <kristianpaul> tunner need SDA and SCL,
2011-04-21 19:37 <kristianpaul> also a CE pin
2011-04-21 19:37 <kristianpaul> and a LOCK signal to be read
2011-04-21 19:37 <kristianpaul> i dont get the part about ( you don't need to clamp the 3.3 V -> 5 V direction)
2011-04-21 19:40 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: WRT54GL.TX -> PINGUINO.RX, why the diode ?
2011-04-21 19:40 <kristianpaul> ah..
2011-04-21 19:40 <kristianpaul> bad sch
2011-04-21 19:41 <kristianpaul> pinguino is 5V ttl, not 3v3 compatible
2011-04-21 19:41 <kristianpaul> but in the case of the nanonote i need 3v3 to 5V in both directions
2011-04-21 19:41 <wpwrak> also,  the chip on the WRT54GL.RX side probably has its own diode. and it probably has a lower voltage drop than the 1N4148. so you may still send about (5-3.3-0.3)/330 A through it, and very little through the 1N4148
2011-04-21 19:42 <kristianpaul> i see
2011-04-21 19:43 <wpwrak> you may want to check how the chip on the WRT54GL side is specified
2011-04-21 19:44 <kristianpaul> i think i'll just end using a transitors as on/off gate to driver the 5V signal
2011-04-21 19:44 <wpwrak> you may need two, so that you don't invert it
2011-04-21 19:45 <kristianpaul> and for the coming LOCK signal from tunner just  adiode or voltage divider to drop it to near/bellow 3v3
2011-04-21 19:45 <kristianpaul> ok
2011-04-21 19:45 <kristianpaul> ah, you mena darlington bridge?
2011-04-21 19:45 <kristianpaul> s/mena/mean
2011-04-21 19:48 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: hmm, no, darlington also inverts
2011-04-21 19:48 <kristianpaul> need to leav, read you later
2011-04-21 19:49 <kristianpaul> haha
2011-04-21 19:49 <kristianpaul> http://www.wirelesspowerconsortium.com/
2011-04-21 19:49 <kristianpaul> "Interoperable products can be recognized by the logo Qi"
2011-04-21 19:49 <kristianpaul> my ben have a Qi logo ;)
2011-04-21 19:52 <mth> oh great... in a few years we'll have people joining this channel when they have problems charging their phone...
2011-04-21 19:52 <kristianpaul> lol ;)
2011-04-21 20:25 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: http://ur1.ca/3x2ab
2011-04-21 20:25 <kristianpaul> s/FONERA/Nanonote
2011-04-21 20:25 <kristianpaul> s/PINGUNO/Tunner
2011-04-21 20:26 <kristianpaul> yeah, i got now what you mean with invert it :-)
2011-04-21 21:07 <wpwrak> yeah ;-)